History

Next Time Somebody Says "This is the worst meltdown since the Great Depression" and You Think "That's bullshit"…

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You kids need to understand: every single thing sucked in 1975.

…just recite the following:

Quarterly GDP growth entered into its most degenerating two-year period since the Great Depression. Over a seven-quarter period from 1973 to 1975, GDP went down five times, which meant that there was at least one recession and probably another in the period, making for a double dip, as in 1969-1970. In early 1975, GDP was still 3 percent off the 1973 mark, an enduring contraction the likes of which had been completely unknown during the quarter century of postwar prosperity. And in the recession years of 1974 and 1975, consumer prices somehow increased at World War I rates – 11 percent and 9 percent, respectively. At the end of 1975, the economy was only marginally bigger than it had been in 1973, and prices were 25 percent higher.

For a while, it looked like the stock market would not hold. In 1973-74, the indexes fell halfway to zero before snapping back somewhat in 1975. The Dow industrials stabilized at about 850, 15 percent below the 1966 peak. There had been 66 percent inflation in the interim, however, meaning that if you had been holding the whole while, you had been getting killed. Then there was unemployment: it surged to 9 percent in 1975, easily the highest level since the Depression, a rate that was one-quarter higher than during any postwar recession.

This is a brief passage from a two-page iliad of suffering described in Brian Domitrovic's great book Econoclasts: The rebels who sparked the supply-side revolution and restored American prosperity. Note that of all the economic well-being measures described above, only one is worse today than it was during the Gerald Ford Administration: Since the current economic team took office in January 2009, unemployment has increased from 7.6 percent to 9.6 percent.

I'm on record somewhere believing supply-side policies will not solve the current recession, because the recession itself is the solution. I should clarify that supply-side policies – or even the mutant-cannibal-hillbilly versions of those policies that emerged under Ronald Reagan – would be less destructive than the catastrophic policies of the Obama brain trust.

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  1. For the record, letting “Too Big to Fail” corporate zombie institutions go under should be considered a “supply side” economic theory.

    And it would have worked. Or will work, once we finally get around to letting it happen.

    1. Will never happen. No political will. Never will be.

      1. I COULD see it happening if the midterms result in gridlock in DC.

        [silently prays for gridlock]

        1. Don`t ye reckon who brought us th’ first round o’ bailouts?

          1. A Democrat Congress and a Republican President.

  2. Domitrovic gives away his own villainy with the title of that book.

    And the alt text is correct, plus it holds true for the four and five other years that bookend 1975.

    1. 1975 is also the year that KC and the Sunshine Band sang:

      That’s the way
      Uh-huh, uh-huh
      I like it
      Uh-huh, uh-huh

      It doesn’t get much worse than that.

      1. Yes it does…I set stage for KC and his band in 1976 and had to actually contribute to the debasement of so many musical palates in so doing.

      2. Oh please. KC and the Sunshine Band were teh awesome! You guys are snobs. That is all.

        P.S. Dead or Alive did a kick-ass cover of “That’s The Way (I Like It).”

  3. Judging by the happy hour crowd at Taps Friday night, the recession isn’t too bad.

    1. Can we also judge by political donations? With the amount that politicians are taking in clearly things can’t be that bad.

      I also see no shortage of people with pets such as dogs, which if things were bad I would assume you’d see less of them.

        1. Depends on the cell phone. A cell phone is a necessity nowadays. iPod, not so much. iPad even less.

          How much is the yearly cost of a dog? More than a cell phone I’d guess.

          1. Dogs serve several purposes, though. They are good companions, and they are pretty darn good burglar alarms too. They have been partners of mankind for thousands of years for a reason. Just for the record, I am not a dog lover, but we do own a dog (the wife loves him) .

            1. I like dogs. They taste like chicken.

          2. A cell phone is a necessity nowadays

            I don’t have one. But I’m a hobbit. All I need is some good pipe weed. But you know what they say: Having pipe weed and no cell phone will get you through the times of having a cell phone and no pipe weed.

      1. Animal shelters are overflowing with pets surrendered by families who don’t want to spend the money on them any more. In my neighborhood, which is always full of stray and semi-feral cats, I’ve been seeing many more stray dogs than usual. I think it’s the bad economy.

    2. Your example is counter-intuitive. When the economy is bad, people have more reason to drink. Other forms of escapist diversions prosper as well, like the movies.

      1. Not that I disagree with you on the drinking part, but people are actually skipping the movies this time around:

        http://www.bloomberg.com/news/…..sales.html

        Hollywood’s revenues are up, but that’s only because the average ticket price is around $11 and 3-D flicks add another $3-5 to the sale price. It was easy back in the 1930s for ticket sales to go up since the ticket price was around 10-25 cents, and in many cases you could get a double feature out of the deal as well.

        1. As a more or less total movie refusenik, I can tell you there’s at least a one-man Laffer Curve for ticket prices.

          1. I’m with you, Tim. Why pay big bucks to sit in a movie theater that a bunch of twenty-somethings (who won’t shut up) and have mistaken for a bar with inattentive cocktail waitresses?

            Nick once told me that movie ticket prices were inline when adjusted for inflation. I won that bet. They’re way more proportionally than what our parents paid.

            1. Well, me grandparents, but aye, if they be inline wi’ inflation they ortin’t be more than about 5 bucks assumin’ a .25 cent ticket.

              http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

            2. Going to the movies is not the only way to partake in motion picture escapism. Netflicks, and ordering movies on pay per view cable is the modern way. Big screen HD TVs and surround sound means not having to put up with rude loud talkers.

              1. Or bedbugs! (Unless of course you’re the source of the bedbugs.)

            3. a bunch of twenty-somethings (who won’t shut up)

              Racist.

              And welcome back.

      2. Right, Cappy. What’s happened around here is the implementation of happy hour as a response to the abrupt drop in people dining out. Eating out is like going to the movies, very expensive for what it is.

        Now, you can go to happy hour, have cheap drinks and order off the appetizer menu.

        All the local eateries have happy hour now, some even on the weekend.

  4. ARRRrrr. I’m reminded of the depression following the great wench drought of ’65. Nothing a little plunder won’t fix. First you get the ship, then you get the gold, then you get the wenches.

    1. And with the wenches come the booty!

      1. Pirate booty?! Tell me more!!

  5. ARRRrrr. I’m reminded of the depression following the great wench drought of ’65. Nothing a little plunder won’t fix. First you get the ship, then you get the gold, then you get the wenches.

    Aye, Matey! And then the wenches get you grog.

  6. I know what the economy needs.

    More cowbell.

  7. If we’re looking at current GDP growth, we need to keep the trillions of dollars in federal deficit spending in mind to get the fairly pathetic level of “growth” we’re experiencing right now. That hose is going to have to be turned off eventually, and in cases where it was–such as housing and automobiles–the market plummeted when the sugar high wore off.

    http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=166661

  8. I’m on record somewhere believing supply-side policies will not solve the current recession, because the recession itself is the solution.

    We all know this, but it needs to be said: there was a purgatorial recession at the beginning of the Reagan years too.

    1. The Volker Recession was Purgatorial, but this one Is the Road to Hell Paved with Good Intentions. Big difference.

    2. Tulpa|9.19.10 @ 4:18PM|#
      “We all know this, but it needs to be said: there was a purgatorial recession at the beginning of the Reagan years too.”

      Yes there was, but Reagan had enough sense to toss the shovel after the hole was getting too deep.

  9. “Lets see if libertarians can put this together….

    Aughts were a lost decade for U.S. economy, workers

    There has been zero net job creation since December 1999. No previous decade going back to the 1940s had job growth of less than 20 percent. Economic output rose at its slowest rate of any decade since the 1930s as well.

    Middle-income households made less in 2008, when adjusted for inflation, than they did in 1999 — and the number is sure to have declined further during a difficult 2009. The Aughts were the first decade of falling median incomes since figures were first compiled in the 1960s.

    And the net worth of American households — the value of their houses, retirement funds and other assets minus debts — has also declined when adjusted for inflation, compared with sharp gains in every previous decade since data were initially collected in the 1950s.

    “This was the first business cycle where a working-age household ended up worse at the end of it than the beginning, and this in spite of substantial growth in productivity, which should have been able to improve everyone’s well-being,” said Lawrence Mishel, president of the Economic Policy Institute

    Then we had international economic collapse under bush.

    Who do you blame?

    OBAMA!!!

    Still blame Saddam for 9/11 too?

    Why GDP is an Inappropriate Measure of Economic – Global Exchange
    Oct 28, 2007 … Why GDP is an Inappropriate Measure of Economic Health … According to conventional wisdom, what is good for the GDP is good for the nation; as the GDP … The continued rise of the GDP is no longer something to cheer …
    http://www.globalexchange.org ? … ? Global Economy 101 – Cached – Similar

    Stiglitz: GDP Blinded Us to the Crisis – Metrics – CFO.com
    Sep 29, 2009… product metric is no longer a good measure of general well-being ? and, … Simply put, the GDP is a measure of economic performance that represents the … So the value of all goods and services being used to calculate the GDP … which spends 11% of its GDP on health care and is ahead of the …
    http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/14443847/?f=rsspage – Cached

    One of the Key Errors with GDP as a Measure of Economic Health …
    Jul 13, 2009 … Stop Following. You are no longer following Vincent Fernando … misuse of GDP as a measure of economic health is a major cause of wasteful … the logic of the measure would suggest that a good way to achieve economic …
    seekingalpha.com/…/148406-one-of-the-key-errors-with-gdp-as-a-measure-of-economic-health – Cached

    1. You’re on the wrong blog. Try Daily Kos.

      1. Dont ever read REAL economists?Only feel comfortable in your echo chamber circle jerk?

        1. I guess you don’t consider Pauly Krugnuts to be a real economist then, because he’s been banging the “deficits don’t matter if we ramp up GDP” drum for quite some time.

          And I’m presuming, based your post above, that you must REALLY be mad that all those trillions Bush and Obama spent have resulted in a measly 2% GDP growth that will disappear the second the gravy train skips the tracks.

          1. Well if you ever READ Krugman you would know we havent spent enough.Not even close.Right now we can borrow at zero percent interest from the fed and kickstart the economy by building our crumbling infrustructure and getting on the green badwagon before China takes the market over.Then we MIGHT have a chance.
            Without it we are doomed to a lost decade like Japan.But thats what you want right?You all must be invested heavily in china and India cause you dont care if the US Tanks.

            1. Oh, God, it looks like we’ve got yet another manifestation of the lefiti.

            2. Avast, be ye a parody?

              Ye hit jus’ about everythin’ we make ridicule o’ here:

              -we haven’t spent enough

              -stimulating the economy

              -green shoots

              -the global economy is a zeros sum game and China is winning!!!!1111

              -Japan’s lost decade (which is widely known to be a direct result of the same government interventions we used, see reason on the topic)

              -libertarians don’t care about America

              Arrr, ye be givin’ me a great big laugh, ya scurvy imbecile!

              1. Laugh away!
                We laugh at you and your bankrupt sociopathic ideology.Even Greenspan admits he was wrong.You do know he’s a Rand Groupie and libertarian…right?

                Bet ya do.

                1. Really now? Las’ I be hearing, libertarians dasn’t advocate increasin’ taxes an’ restrictions on th’ economy. Ye do know what a libertarian be dasn’t ye?

                  1. Well Greenspan has come around only because he finally realizes someone has to pay for the wars and debt.

                    Who do you think will?..Oden?

                2. You really need to educate yourself.

                  1. frog on the potty is very confused. He thinks this site is Redstate or something.

            3. “Well if you ever READ Krugman you would know we havent spent enough.”

              Well, if we haven’t spent enough, why not just give every American citizen over 18 $100,000 and call it good?

              Krugman wanted the stimulus to be $1.5 trillion–well, why stop there?

              “Right now we can borrow at zero percent interest from the fed and kickstart the economy by building our crumbling infrustructure and getting on the green badwagon before China takes the market over.”

              You want really want Helicopter Ben to fire up the printing presses? You must love banks more than I thought.

              And China can kick our ass on “green technology” six ways from Sunday because they don’t give a shit about the environmental costs of producing the materials, nor things like “living wages.” Your Tom Friedman pipe dream ain’t going to happen.

              “Without it we are doomed to a lost decade like Japan.But thats what you want right?”

              So your solution to countering a Japanese-style “lost decade,”(which is, in reality, over twenty years running now) in which deficit spending was ramped to the skies and invested heavily in infrastructure, is to…ramp up deficit spending to the skies to invest heavily in infrastructure. Way to think outside the box!

              “You all must be invested heavily in china and India cause you dont care if the US Tanks.”

              You misunderstood–I want to see YOU tank, not the US. Two different entities there.

              1. You wrong on so many areas I dont know where to start.
                We would be lucky to be Japan.Even at its worst they never had more than 5% unemployment and everyone has health insurance,the highest life expectancy rates and lowest incarceration rates..They also have an economy that makes shit to export.

                We’ll be starting from scratch.Trickle down just increased inequality and we shipped our infrustructure and technology to slave wage countries.

                What did you think would happen?

                1. You can start by reducing your meds. That way you won’t twitch and double comment.

                  But by all means, continue to demonstrate you’re uneducated leftist cut & paste worldview.

                2. “the highest life expectancy rates”

                  I was hoping you’d say this.

                  “Thousands of Japanese centenarians may have died decades ago”

                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..ns-records

                  Looks like they took the Chicago voting model and transferred it to reporting age limits. Pretty easy to goose the numbers when your Great Aunt Myra is buried in the backyard but still listed as “alive.”

                  Oh, and their debt to GDP ratio is through the roof. That’s where that 20-years and running “lost decade” is coming from.

              2. You wrong on so many areas I dont know where to start.
                We would be lucky to be Japan.Even at its worst they never had more than 5% unemployment and everyone has health insurance,the highest life expectancy rates and lowest incarceration rates..They also have an economy that makes shit to export.

                We’ll be starting from scratch.Trickle down just increased inequality and we shipped our infrustructure and technology to slave wage countries.

                What did you think would happen?

    2. Frog, I was alive from 2001 to 2008. The economy was good, my clients were making money. Jobs were plentiful. People were happy.

      I heard O’blama make your claim the other day (that there was no net job creation).

      My question is this: How did all those people lose the fookin’ jobs they never had in the first place because they weren’t created?

      Where I do agree with you is that Bush and the GOP spent us into oblivion and O’Blama dumped a bunch of kerosene and JP-5 on the bonfire, all of which has prolonged the correction.

      1. Well you arent very bright then huh?
        40 % of the jobs the last decade before the collapse were in the financial sector.Anouther 36% were in the housing sector BUBBLE created by easy credit and low interest rates.

        Thats NOT a viable economy.THATS an accident waiting to happen.And it did.

        1. If only more marginally qualified young people could afford university or cooking school, they wouldn’t be considered unemployed!!1!11
          Where oh where could we get some sweet, sweet school loan money to attend a quality school like Kaplan?

          1. Funny how other countries can get education right.

            The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work and then they get elected and prove it.
            P. J. O’Rourke

            1. KEEP OFF THE CRACK!

            2. The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn.

              And frog in a pot is the sucker who believes them. So sad. 🙁

            3. The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work and then they get elected and prove it.

              Democrats are the party who promises the moon, the sun, and the stars. The Republicans are the party who gets the blame when the un-workable promises don’t pan out and the populance finds they’ve been conned, because they are the party in power by then, who get left holding the bag.

              1. Republicans were in charge the last decade right up to the collapse of the international economy by our banks.Didnt notice that huh?Did ya miss the 2 wars?One we were lied into, both without enough troops or planning?
                Did you notice the taxcuts and 2 wars?

                How does that work exactly?Be specific i love details.

                And illegals?What did republicans do about them the decade they were in control?…LINK?…oh right used them as racist fodder for the election.

                And dont forget ZERO jobs created the last decade of republican rule ZERO.

                Bush On Jobs: The Worst Track Record On Record

                blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/tab/… ? Cached page

                1. Hey retard – your still pushing the anti-Bush crap to a group of people that dislike Bush.

                2. We aren’t Republicans, dude.

      2. And you do know how many jobs need to be created every moth just to stay even right?
        Bet you do.
        And the states are bankrupt so people are losing government jobs now too.I though you liked that part?

        1. And you do know how many jobs need to be created every moth just to stay even right?

          Doesn’t that depend on how many wetbacks future Democrat voting citizens you import into the country?

          1. Nothing RACIST about that!!..Nope.

            So what did republicans do about the millions of illegals running amock the last decade they had control?LINK?

            1. Nothing RACIST about that!!..Nope.

              That’s right!! Nothing racist about it – unless you consider being a foreigner or a Dimocrap as being of another race. Are all illegal aliens of one race? Are all Dimocraps? Oh, well yeah, I guess the Diposhits are kinda all alike – donkeys are all jackasses asses. Except when they’re half-baked toads on a stick par-boiled frogs in a pot.

              1. So what did republicans do about the millions of illegals running amock the last decade they had control?LINK?

                Well mostly they suffered the accusations of racism from you lefty motherfuckers any time they suggested there might be a problem attendant to importing large numbers of un-assimilating members of third world cultures. What did the Dimocraps do? Oops, that’s right, the left doesn’t see any problem with having a country full of peons from two-class societies, used to living under assorted varieties of socialism and authoritarianism. That’s a bit of a feature for lefties who intend to be the upper class.

                1. Avast, ye be on th’ wrong site. Redstate might be more t’ yer likin’. We like our borders open on the fair ship Reason.

                  1. We like our borders open on the fair ship Reason.

                    Only the crypto-lefties liberaltarians and Playboy Forum libertines who’ve been drinking too much out of the fair ship Reason’s bilges.

                    1. Arrrr, drink me maties!

                  2. Opening the borders before shrinking the welfare state (or its eligibility) is a recipe for making an even bigger welfare state.

                2. LOL!!
                  Thats right they did NOTHING!!Oh and last time they did SOMETHING they gave millions amnesty you fucking retard.Ask St Ronnie…he gave them free healthcare too..lol

                  1. and last time they did SOMETHING they gave millions amnesty you fucking retard.Ask St Ronnie…he gave them free healthcare too..lol

                    Which is in essence what Obozo and the rest of the fucking left would like to do now. Ronald Reagan is no saint of mine, wetbrain.

          2. I’m doing my part, bitches!1!!1 Juan and Julio are polishing my Volvos right now. And boy, are they pissed the Cowboys lost again. What is it with wetbacks and Tony Romo?

            1. Why is it called REASON ?It should be called BULLSHIT.

              1. KEEP OFF THE CRACK, LITTLE FROGGY!

              2. About goddamn time. Drink!

    3. you are measuring peek (1999) to trough (2009). Try measuring Peek to peek of the business cycle (1999-2007) or trough to trough (2002-2010). That is a far more honest analysis and thats how actual economists and investment analysts measure things – over the course of the business cycle.

      1. more over, just as we had a massive housing bubble this past decade, the laet nineties were driven by a massive tech/ stock bubble. That wasnt sustainable.

  10. Tulpa: the Reagan recession was completely different. It was caused by central bank monetary policy; this one happened despite central bank monetary policy. That doesn’t prove anything about this recession in particular, but they aren’t really parallel situations.

    1. In fairness the FEDs low interest rates and lack of regulation of derivatives markets did contribute.Its always the fed.Always.We had our chance to nationalize the federal reserve and blew it.Now we are owned by international banks worse than before and they have a nice scam going creating anouther bubble.This time we took the whole fucking world with US.

      1. Uhm. The FED is a government monopoly fuckhead. But nice try.

        1. Uh No its NOT you retard!The federal reserve is to the federal government what federal express is.
          why are you people so fucking stupid!!

          1. No,
            The Federal Reserve is a GSE, as such, it is a creation of Congress.

            1. Considering that it was established with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, it literally is a creation of Congress.

        2. In an interview with Jim Lehrer, Alan Greenspan admits that the Federal Reserve is not a government agency. This should put to rest the deniers on this board who are willingly ignorant:

          When asked by Jim Lehrer what should be the proper relationship between a chairman of the Fed and The President of the United States, Greenspan said:

          Quote:
          Well, first of all, the Federal Reserve is an independent agency, and that means, basically, that there is no other agency of government which can overrule actions that we take. So long as that is in place and there is no evidence that the administration or the Congress or anybody else is requesting that we do things other than what we think is the appropriate thing, then what the relationships are don’t, frankly, matter.

          The Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned and always have been. The system was set up to limit the Federal government’s control of the economy.It is obvious that you are willingly ignorant. Who owns the private banks that make up the Federal Reserve System? Can you name any Government Agency that is owned by a private corporation/organization?

          1. KEEP OFF THE CRACK, LITTLE FROGGY!

          2. The FED is a GSE created by Congress, it’s charter can be abolished or changed in any way at any time. It is not a private entity with separate rights.

            I agree that it has had a mostly negative influence, it is in fact a part of the government. The Fed’s “independence” is a fiction that frees Congress from responsibility, and is no different than the rest of the regulatory state that has evolved over the last 80 years.

            1. Yup, just like the municipal and county corporations set up for various purposes, whose members are appointed by city and county governments rather than elected by the voters.

              1. of the FDIC that operated independently, or the FDA or any of these independent federal bureaucracies. Congress does change their powers and rules when it feels like it. Then lets them do what they want the rest of the time. Im not sure what “nationalizing” the Fed would even mean.

            2. Thats why it has never been audited and doesnt have to give pertenant information to congress i.e. what foreign banks has the TARP gone too.

            3. GSE’s are private corporations set up by congress mostly for the housing market.The FED isnt one.

              Hank Paulson: Blame Crisis on FHA/GSEs

              Hank Paulson, the criminally inept Treasury Secretary who shoveled trillions of taxpayer dollars to insolvent banks, facilitated the grand theft of some near $20 billion dollars from AIG by Goldman Sachs (where he was previously CEO), is attempting to change the narrative of the credit crisis and collapse.

              In today’s Washington Post piece, Paulson ignores facts, rewrites history, and fabricates causes of the economic collapse:

              “A significant root cause of the crisis was the combined weight of government policies promoting homeownership; these are apparent in the housing GSEs, the Federal Housing Administration (FHA), the Federal Home Loan Banks, the federal tax deduction for mortgage interest and various state programs. Homeownership was overstimulated to the point that it was unsustainable and dangerous to the broader economy.”

              Perhaps the former US Treasury Secretary can explain how the world had a global housing boom and bust ? countries not covered by the FHA or GSEs. How did THAT happen? Indeed, the boom and bust in the US was smaller than that of many other nations. And the FHA/GSE role in that? Perhaps the former Treasury Secretary can explain the root causes of that.

              Paulson oversaw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind ? from taxpayers to insolvent banks and their bondholders. His commentary is thinly veiled attempt to rewrite what actually occurred, and to shift his own sad role from conductor of the theft, to hapless victim of long standing government policy.

          3. Arrr, Froggy be eatin’ yer poop on that one.

          4. Avast, Froggy! Is thar anythin’ else ye can do besides copyin’ an’ pastin’ what other bilge-rats be sayin? Thinkin’ fer yersef be a necessary part o’ nay bein’ a lily livered imbecile.

          5. Can you name any Government Agency that is owned by a private corporation/organization?

            Looks to me like most of the federal government is owned by various corporations/organizations and has been for many years.

            1. Pretty much.but these are international banks who dont have the US interests in mind.

          6. I’m sorry, I have to jump in here.

            You are only showing your complete ignorance when you claim that an “independent agency” is not part of the government.

            An independent agency may not fall under a cabinet head, but it is certainly part of the government. Read your Greenspan quote again. Greenspan doesn’t claim that it’s not a part of government.

      2. The Fed was supposed to regulate derivatives?

        Did you read that nonsense in Pauly Krugnuts column too?

    2. Well yes. My intention in referring to the Reagan recession as “purgatorial” was to say that it had as much to do with the growth of the 80s-90s as supply side.

      The current recession, of course, isn’t doing anyone any good, for precisely the reasons you mention.

  11. TWC,

    Didn’t you see the sign? Do not feed the troll. Pelt him with insults if you must but attempting to engage the mentally deficient and delusional in intelligent discourse is fruitless.

    1. Because Stiglitz is mentally deficient right?…good argument.

      former Reagan advisor:The GOP has already “destroyed” the U.S. economy, setting up an “American Apocalypse.” –

      Stockman rushes into the ring swinging like a boxer: “If there were such a thing as Chapter 11 for politicians, the Republican push to extend the unaffordable Bush tax cuts would amount to a bankruptcy filing. The nation’s public debt … will soon reach $18 trillion.” It screams “out for austerity and sacrifice.” But instead, the GOP insists “that the nation’s wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase.

      So how do you have 2 wars and cut taxes genius?Be specific I love details!!

      Did you think Jesus would pay?Oh right you guys arent the holy rollers your the true believers.

      So if Taxcuts create jobs ….where are they ?Oh right China and India!!

      1. Arrr, this here smarmy fool dasn’t seem t’ get ‘t.

        1. No answer?
          Didnt think so.
          Why do they call it REASON magazine?I dont see any any thought process going on at all.

        2. Hope and Change!!!!

          1. None of that when you have an international coup by the banks and economic collapse huh?

            Oh and 2 unwinnable wars……….thanks for that!!
            Oh and the TORTURE TOO!!

            1. KEEP OFF THE CRACK, LITTLE FROGGY!

            2. Arrr, Froggy wanna cracker?

              If ye knew anythin’ at all, ye would reckon th’ policies o’ th’ Republican an’ Democrat statists be havin’ caused our wars an’ economic situation. Libertarians be havin’ nay held influence in th’ federal government, so ye must be an idiot t’ blame th’ mistakes o’ th’ federal government on us. Go sink t’ Davy Jones’ locker now, ye have served yer purpose o’ annoyin’ us wi’ yer scurvy dribble.

      2. Arrgh! Avast, ye swabs – ‘ey tuk er jerrrbs!!! To the Orient to have at ’em, then!!!

        1. Chinese worker suicides in iPad factory

          Guess the working class in China isn’t all that happy after all.

          http://www.spiegel.de/internatio…296,00.html

          excerpt

          A series of apparent suicides has shaken the management of Foxconn, an electronics manufacturer that builds parts and assembles products for many Silicon Valley firms. Hundreds of thousands of people live and work at a Foxconn factory complex in southern China, in what critics say are sweat-shop conditions.

          They are throwing themselves off the tops of buildings.They think we give a shit.Pretty funny when you think about it.they dont realize we dont give a shit about each other never mind their slave wage asses.

          1. KEEP OFF THE CRACK, LITTLE FROGGY!

          2. Arrr, and this be th’ swabbie who be tryin’ scare us wi’ th’ thought that China an’ India might be more economically successful than us. What kind o’ scurvy imbecile be ye?

          3. They are throwing themselves off the tops of buildings.They think we give a shit.Pretty funny when you think about it.they dont realize we dont give a shit about each other never mind their slave wage asses.

            Why in fuck would they think that?! Did they fall for the bullshit from you con-artist lefties? (no pun intended)

          4. “Hundreds of thousands of people live and work at a Foxconn factory complex in southern China, in what critics say are sweat-shop conditions.”

            Who gives a fuck? You ever try asking them if they were grateful to have a fucking job in the first place? Maybe a means to feed their family means more to them than the smarmy liberal bullshit wetdream of a starbucks on every fucking corny and Nora Jones on the fucking radio.

      3. We’re not Republicans. Most of us rabidly opposed the wars and the Bush Administration. The Bush tax cuts increased revenues, but his rapidly increased spending resulted in the deficits. Most of us hate Alan Greenspan because he pushed the Fed even further from stability, which is a large reason for the financial crisis, also caused anti-discrimination measures. The joblessness was exacerbated by increased minimum wage at the worst moment for businesses, which no one seems to talk about. Unemployment will be exacerbated further by increased regulations and more expensive healthcare plans thanks to Obama.

  12. Arr, at least we be not involved in an unwinnable war with daily press releases trying to prop up an unpopular government and making incursions into a neighb’rin’ country to get at insurgent supply lines like the 70’s…oh, wait ye. Well, shiver me timbers and call me Cap’n frogInAPot, we be right screwed.

    1. One difference is that we did win Iraq. And Vietnam was perfectly winnable until the government sandbagged our armed forces with a bazillion different combat restrictions, making them more like an armed farce. Nixon did almost win when he got serious about the war. Never should have gone into Vietnam any way, but the ‘unwinnable’ chestnut needed to be cracked.

      1. One difference is that we did win Iraq.

        Jumping the gun a bit, aren’t we? The Viet Cong didn’t win until two years after we pulled out.

        1. Tulpa, actually, North Vietnam won about 24 hours after we pulled out. Your larger point is valid, though.

          1. No….the US pulled out in 1973 and Saigon fell in 1975. You’re not referring to the withdrawal of embassy staff as the pull-out, are you?

            1. Yeah, I was. You win this one.

              “29 Apr 75 – Last American soldier killed in Vietnam (the first was 8 Jul 59) The official American presence in Saigon ends when the last Americans are evacuated by helicopter from the US Embassy roof. Within hours the Saigon government surrenders to the VC”

        2. The Viet Cong are sewing our clothes. I think we won 35 years later.

      2. What did we win in IRAQ again?The looting of their oil for private companies?maybe….thats it.FYI…Bribing people not to kill each other for awhile isnt winning fucktard.What happens when you stop the bribes?

        We did hand IRAN a big coup though and with them China and Russia.Now they just need afganistan to get that pipeline…yummy!!

        STILL dont care we were lied into war for profit yet?

        1. The looting of their oil for private companies?

          Just. Embarrassingly. Stupid!

          1. First thing Bremmer did retard.Hand out the loot…and contracts..starting in Kurdistan

            The Great Iraq Heist

            The Iraqis are paying for the war waged …
            George Bush, Paul Bremer, and gang have pulled off the biggest heist in history. …. Money to support the trade bank comes from Iraq’s oil money, …. Others from the British mercenary company Erinys are training members of the …

            The Iraqi oil conundrum – Asia Times Online :: Middle East News …
            Feb 4, 2010 … In other Bremer initiatives, foreign energy and construction firms did take charge of development, repair, and operations in Iraq’s main oil …
            http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LB04Ak04.html – Cached – Similar

            Baghdad year zero: Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia?By …
            When Paul Bremer shredded Iraq’s Baathist constitution and replaced it with … Insurance companies were so spooked that not a single one of the big ….. Citigroup’s loan scheme has been rejected as a misuse of Iraq’s oil revenues. …
            http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html – Cached – Similar

            Are you just willfully ignorant or stupid?

            1. Let me be sure I understand your world view.

              When a customer signs a contract to buy services, he is being “looted”. Is that about right?

              1. When you lie your way into a war to steal their oil so you can give out contracts to your cronies….what do YOU call that?

                1. OH WHAT”S THE FUCKING USE? YOU SMOKED YOURSELF RETARDED BUT HAVE OBVIOUSLY DEVELOPED A TOLERANCE.

                  1. Impervious to facts huh?

                    “Iraq possesses huge reserves of oil and gas?reserves I’d love Chevron to have access to.” ?Kenneth T. Derr, CEO of Chevron, 1998 (Note that Condi Rice was a member of the Chevron Board and had a tanker named after her.)

                    “Although the final decision for inviting foreign investment ultimately rests with a representative Iraqi government, I believe in due course the invitation will come.” ?Peter J. Robertson, Chevron vice chairman, September 2003

                    “Of course it’s about oil, we can’t really deny that.” ?General John Abizaid, retired head U.S. Central Command and military operations in Iraq, on the Iraq War, 2007

                    So is there any doubt as to why we went into Iraq?

                    1. This is my last comment:

                      There is a difference between securing the free flow of oil to be sold at market rates with the oil’s owners receiving that revenue, and looting Iraq’s oil. The whole world has a stake in ensuring the energy market is stable. The fact that you don’t see the difference between looting and free markets says something about you, Froggie.

                    2. Hmmm… when you have to lie a country into war to get them?

                      What the fuck is wrong with you?

                      So if I steal your car and sell it as long as I have a contract with the new owner that makes it OK.Right?

                      Thats your level of morality and ethics?…thought so.

                    3. Well if the old owner stole it… Not really a crime to steal stolen goods from a thief, is it?

                    4. All major parties to getting a share. See this summary:

                      http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLDE66J?1HN2010072?0

                      Here are some of the top deals, listed in order of the size (the article shows more):

                      * RUMAILA

                      Britain’s BP Plc (BP.L) and China’s CNPC signed an oil deal in November for the Rumaila oilfield, with estimated reserves of 17 billion barrels. BP has a 38 percent stake and CNPC has 37 percent while Iraq holds 25 percent.

                      * WEST QURNA PHASE TWO

                      Russian Lukoil (LKOH.MM) and Norway’s Statoil (STL.OL) sealed a deal for the 12.9 billion barrel oilfield in January.

                      Iraq holds a 25 percent stake, Lukoil 56.25 percent and Statoil 18.75 percent.

                      * MAJNOON

                      This 12.6-billion barrel oilfield was taken by Royal Dutch Shell (RDSa.L) and Malaysia’s Petronas [PETR.UL], in January.

                      Shell has a 45 percent share, with Petronas holding 30 percent and Iraq 25 percent.

                      * WEST QURNA PHASE ONE

                      A competition behind closed doors led to a deal with Exxon Mobil (XOM.N) and Shell. The companies inked the final pact on January.

                      The field has reserves of 8.7 billion barrels.

                      Exxon has a 60 percent interest, with Iraq holding 25 percent and Shell the remainder.

                      * HALFAYA

                      China National Petroleum Company (CNPC), France’s Total (TOTF.PA) and Petronas signed in January.

                      Estimated reserves of 4.1 billion barrels of oil.

                      Total holds 18.75 percent, CNPC 37.5 percent, Petronas 18.75 percent and Iraq 25 percent.

                2. “When you lie your way into a war to steal their oil so you can give out contracts to your cronies….”

                  [CITATION NEEDED]

          2. Which country did Maliki come from genius?Where did he live before he came back to Iraq?Why Iraq and afganistan?Why was russia in afganistan?

            Look at a map you braindead fucktard.

        2. What did we win in IRAQ again?The looting of their oil for private companies?maybe….thats it.

          Or maybe we won a semi-permanent global strategic position in the middle east which we could not maintain much longer in Saudia Arabia. Sure as hell haven’t seen much cheap oil or gasoline lately. Cooling and heating bills have been getting higher, too.

  13. Aye the 70’s I remember them well. Twas a quaint time when the national debt was measured in billions.

    Eat drink and be merry mateys, for tomorrow ye be wiping yer arse with dollars.

    Thems that have chests of doubloons and pieces of eight well hid might have the good fortune to die of old age. Thems that don’t be DOOOOMED

  14. One difference is that we did win Iraq.

    Jumping the gun a bit, aren’t we? The Viet Cong didn’t win until two years after we pulled out.

    Aye. We’ll reduce that blimey “Island of Democracy” into subservient, tribute paying vassals as soon as the cursed British man-o’-war on the horizon sails away.

    1. You might want to go with J sub Blackbeard if you are trying to be a pirate; Bluebeard was a character (known for killing his wives) from a folk-tale, possibly inspired by the historical Gilles de Rais, a serial killer of children. Blackbeard was the pirate.

  15. Send the Man o’ War to Davey Jones hisself!

  16. C’mon, Tim, no need to worry about being on record claiming the opposite of what you now claim. Not in this crowd. In fact not in any crowd because ther isn’t a crowd anywhere who know who the fuck you are or what you believe, you self-important hack.

    1. Max, I’m really interested in your take on things. Do you have some kind of newsletter or blog I could subscribe to?

    2. Max, sarrry but froggy is our new swashbucklin’ troll, he be crazy entertaining…now to the plank with ye!

  17. Warren, my offer to bet with you still stands. I’m more worried that inflation will stay below 2% on average over the next decade.

    1. Heretic! Ron Paul says inflation! Burn him!

      P.S. Warren’s smarter than the treasury market–even the TIPS market!

      Ten Year, Indexed for Inflation, September 16, 2010?

      1.00%

      http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h15/update/

      Could there be a bubble in treasuries? Quite possibly. But if there’s a bubble, why is there a bubble?

      Hint for Warren: It may be because the market doesn’t think producers will have any pricing power for the foreseeable future.

      But take the bet, Warren. I dare you.

  18. “I should clarify that supply-side policies ? or even the mutant-cannibal-hillbilly versions of those policies that emerged under Ronald Reagan ? would be less destructive than the catastrophic policies of the Obama brain trust.”

    There’s a passage in the bible, “The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom.” In context, it means that people who don’t steal or lie on principle often come out ahead of those that do.

    In anthropology, they deal a lot with the evolutionary outcome of various taboos. We have taboos of our own, and some of that ancient wisdom Ronald Reagan tapped into smacked of those…memes.

    Running deficits because of lowered taxes may have very real advantages over running deficits because of increased spending, and whether any idiot you come across who gets misty eyed thinking about Reagan can explain why is really beside the point.

    1. Heretic! Lowered taxes don’t cause deficits! Burn him!

      1. Well not anymore than increased spending does.

    2. Seriously, like…I could go for Palin at this point.

      Is she brilliant?

      No.

      Does she know what she’s talking about?

      No.

      Are her foreign policy ideas misinformed like Bush’s were?

      Yes.

      But I might support her anyway.

      She might be stupid, but her stupidity is a lot better than so much of the brilliance we’ve had lately… You know the old saying about how “a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing”?

      Well, if there’s anything to that, then maybe the flip-side is that a little stupidity can sometimes save our ass.

      There was this guy I used to work with, who quite frankly wasn’t very bright. When we needed to go negotiate with somebody, but we couldn’t go ourselves, we could send this guy on a mission though. And we’d tell him, “Go in, and negotiate, but all we really care about is that we don’t agree to do X, Y or Z”…

      He’d go in, and they’d put the hard sell on him–but you can’t reason with an unreasonable person! They could make the most reasonable case in the world for why we should agree to do X, Y and Z, but he would never agree to that! Never.

      He was oblivious to reason, and for those missions? He was perfect.

      Sarah Palin might be like that. Our perfectly unreasonable person–that’s what Obama is, isn’t he? It’s just that he’s an unreasonable Progressive–maybe what we need is an unreasonable capitalist!

      Palin could do that. She might be perfect for that.

      1. Arrr, exceptin’ that thar be other things that Palin would be havin’ t’ do besides economics, an’ that be a scary thought.

        1. I used to feel that way too. And I’m not saying I’d support her once she got into office…

          …but the idiot we have right now? Is soooOOOOOoooo much worse than the idiot she’d be.

          As far as all the scary stuff Obama does–wouldn’t it be nice to have someone in there who at the very least isn’t so completely awful on domestic policy?

          I think that flows pretty naturally from what Cavanaugh was saying…

          “I should clarify that supply-side policies ? or even the mutant-cannibal-hillbilly versions of those policies that emerged under Ronald Reagan ? would be less destructive than the catastrophic policies of the Obama brain trust.”

          That’s basically all I’m saying, I’m just giving that “mutant-cannibal-hillbilly” a name. If what Cavanaugh is saying is true, it’s true even if you substitute the word “Palin” for “hillbilly”.

          Idiot Palin > Smart Obama

          You say that to Republicans, and they’ll get mad at you for calling Palin an idiot–I hope they’ll pardon me for not preaching to the choir…

          But if we’re talking to swing voters, that’s the equation we need to sell.

          Idiot Palin > Smart Obama

          See Cavanaugh’s “Tommy” caption above. We can all buy into the Palin cult and whisper with the chorus too, “We’re not gonna take it.” Once she’s elected, we can turn on her like we’re a pack of wolves, but until then?

          Stupid Palin > Smart Obama

          1. Not that I give a shit who the GOP runs, but Palin is not even on the radar screen of strong potential candidates. What she is, is an extremely effective lightning rod.

            She will have a much stronger national voice playing that role than she ever would as an elected pol. She knew that when she bailed as the governor of Alaska. She doesn’t have to be even a little balanced or nuanced in her thinking, which is a definite plus for her. She can just let fly with whatever the populist mating call of the week is. The faithful will genuflect, and the infidels will gnash their teeth.

            Pretty good gig really. Sit back, wait for a juicy opening, make a few twitters that stir up a shit storm. Everyone on BOTH sides of the fight hangs on your every word, either as attack fodder or in support and agreement. Heaven for media whores, which all politicians are at heart.

            Those $100K speaking engagements don’t hurt anything, not to mention her new-found ability to be a King-maker. And history tells us, THAT is the job to have. All the power, and none of the accountability. Why screw that up by running for office?

            Obama’s team unwittingly played Dr. Frankenstein when they decided to make HER the issue in ’08. They took a lil’ ole’ Governor from a tiny state (population wise) that 19 out of 20 people had never heard of, and made her into a 8 foot tall limb-ripper. And they have no one but themselves to blame.

            You won’t catch me voting for her, but I have loads of fun watching the progressives shit their pants over her.See More

  19. frog in a pot writes:

    Why do they call it REASON magazine?I dont see any any thought process going on at all.

    Drink, Me Hearties!

    1. Taxcuts pay for themselves and create jobs!!

      Drink up…….you’ll need it!

      1. Arrr, ye knows the rules, froggy, ye says “For a magazine called REASON…”, and then we imbibe in the rum, ho ho.

        1. So hows the being clever workin for ya?

          1. Arrrr, the grog be flowin’ plenty when this one be around.

  20. Drink, Me Hearties!

    A bottle of rum, serving wench!

  21. Why is it called REASON ?It should be called yo ho ho and a bottle of BULLSHIT.

    Fixed it for ye, froggy.

    Grog all ’round!

  22. So who do you guys think is gonna pay for the wars?…jesus?

    Taxcuts?
    Taxcuts?
    Taxcuts…..hard yet?

    1. Arrr, since when be libertarians pro-war?

      Only in yer wee fantasy world, ya scurvy bilge-rat.

      1. you dont like the wars?

        Boo hoo..still have to pay for them huh.

        1. Avast, double standards ahoy!

          If we did be havin’ a libertarian government, thar would be nay wars t’ pay fer in th’ first place. Since when can one ideology be criticized based on th’ mistakes o’ another?

        2. “you dont like the wars?

          Boo hoo..still have to pay for them huh.”

          Thats like telling you “don’t like tax cuts? Well you still have to “pay” for them with spending cuts. Boo hoo.”

        3. They were cheaper than the Democrats’ pork bills.

    2. Arrr, we be payin’ for ’em out o’ our booty! We’ll plunder the oil from Iraq, and then we plunder their rum!

  23. Serious time:

    Does anyone else notice that froggy’s colloquial manner of speaking is reminiscent of a former Alaskan governor?

    You betcha it does!

    -neckbeard

    1. Your heroine!!
      Thanks….thats sweet.That Rand Paul is a hoot!Can ya git any dumber en that guy?

      1. Arrr, I be enjoyin’ watchin’ frog in a pot reassure hisself wi’ examples o’ “libertarians” that he be makin’ up. ‘Tis funny an’ pathetic as a bilge-rat at th’ same time.

        1. i wonder how froggy found this place. He clearly doesnt understand what it is.

          1. He should change his name to Pot in the Frog, that would be a start.

        2. Froggy believes Hitler was a libertarian. Along with Pol Pot and Stalin. You just can’t make this shit up I tell ya!

      2. And she won’t even return your tweets…
        What a shame; regardless of your un-requited love, she thinks you’re a brain-dead asshole. So do I.

      3. That Rand Paul is a hoot!Can ya git any dumber en that guy?

        Well there’s always Biden.

      4. ummm… where to start…Chuck Schumer, Maxine Waters, Patti Murray…

  24. Arrr Froggy, get aft on me shoulder right now. That be enough squawkin’ an’ parrotin’ fer today.

  25. Heretic! Lowered taxes don’t cause deficits! Burn him!

    Is it your contention that they do? Free advice: if you are running a business, and income falls that year, you would be best advised not to go to the board and say “Hey, it is not my fault that we are in the red! The customers just aren’t ponying up the cash!”

    Tax cuts do not cause deficits. Overspending does. Saying that “tax cuts” cause deficits presupposes that all income belongs to the State, to be dispensed by our Benevolent Masters at their pleasure.

    1. all income belongs to the State, to be dispensed by our Benevolent Masters at their pleasure.

      Or re-distributed by me and my czars.

    2. I tried to explain this to Tony, but of course he was too busy being a pompous liberal hack to understand it…

  26. Can you guys stop the shitty pirate talk? It’s about as funny as a bad case of hemorrhoids. Our fave troll, frog in a pot seems to be trying to engage in a semi-serious debate, so debate him. Most of his factoids are easily refuted. He does make a valid point about paying for 2 wars (which libertarians never supported). But these wars are only a small part of the bloat in spending that occurred under Bush. And now under Obama, the federal government is moving on from bloat to pathological obesity. We need to stop the wars, cut spending (frog in a pot is wetting his statist panties over this one). And:

    Raise Taxes
    Raise Taxes
    Raise Taxes
    (orgasm yet, Mr frog?)

    On not just the rich, but everyone else in the top 4 income quintiles (and maybe a little bit on the bottom 20% too). When people have to PAY for something (i.e. Big Government), they demand for it will go DOWN.

  27. Fall is coming, by the way winter is not far. If you want to keep your legs warm, you should buy a boots and I recommend a perfect
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  28. Can you guys stop the shitty pirate talk? It’s about as funny as a bad case of hemorrhoids

    Lighten up, Francis.

    Our fave troll, frog in a pot

    My favorite troll was Jersey McJones. Tied with Dan T.

  29. “Everything will work out soon.” Ahhhm?. Come on people, let’s face it, the evil mother of this mayhem comes from the government. They’re the real cause for inflation. They sit by, do some picture taking and smiling, but have they done what is necessary? They’re not even honest and transparent enough to American people, instead bury us in this deep hole they’ve cultivated.
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  30. Considering how many more women are in the workforce now than were in the 70s, and I would guess even unemployment was worse then, notwithstanding the official numbers.

  31. Pretty sad when the only way, apparently, to keep the economy going is pour what’s left of the cream into the saucers of the fattest of the fat cats so they can gorge themselves further at the expense of everyone else. It is not enough that the system is rigged to ensure that those the in unique position to control the transfer of wealth and can always siphon off the lion’s share of the wealth generated no matter what happens to in the economy. They want, need and think they deserve even those few crumbs that manage to “trickle down” unnoticed.

    Mind you, I am no lefty/socialist type, but I am also no advocate for the rigged quasi-capitalist, crony capitalist system we have had for a long time. I do happen to believe that greed, so to speak, is good. It drives an economy (although “greed” is not really the appropriate word). Greed and envy are both good in that respect in a real free market, but in a system where the greedy and the envious can use the power of law and the government to transfer wealth to themselves they are dangerous. The only reason why greed and envy matter is that the greedy and the envious have access to the power of government to do their bidding.

    1. Well said, whoever you are.

  32. I remember the recession of the early 80s. I drove the interstate from Meridian Ms, to San Antonio TX, and you could go for 20 or 30 minutes without seeing another vehicle. If you took an exit to get gas, most if not all the gas stations were closed. That was a recession. What we have now is a slow down, not a recession.

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