L.A. May Day: Live from the country's largest protest against Arizona's immigration law

Concern, fear, and outrage over Arizona's controversial new immigration law set passions high for the estimated 60,000 marchers at what is reportedly the nation's largest May Day event. Reason.tv took to the streets to get a firsthand view of the demonstrators and their concerns.

Filmed and edited by Hawk Jensen. Approximately 5 mins.

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Comments

[Draco]

Ah yes, the "street protest." Very poor substitute for a rational discussion. The street protest as means to change minds and policy is nothing more than the ad populum fallacy writ large.

[R C Dean]

You're giving street protests way too much credit, Draco.

Street protests are thinly veiled threats of violence. They are a way fo saying, subliminally, "Submit to our demands, or we'll go Greek on your ass."

[Tony]

That would include teabagger protests right? I mean some of them actually carry guns, so the veil isn't even that thin. Do their relatively low turnouts mean the threat isn't that great?

[the dupe]

It does indeed. And they will go greek in november.
The guns they carry prevents "going greek" in the traditional, socialist, tit sucker, out of public milk, sense.

[Tony]

Teabaggers are not the John Galts of society, I hate to break it to you. They are more on the public tit than latino immigrants by a large margin. Because they are old. They get a couple thousand on a good day even after being rallied by FOX News, whereas people with REAL concerns such as latino immigrants can spontaneously form protests in the tens of thousands. Antiwar rallies continue to outnumber teabaggers by a factor of 10. Media coverage levels notwithstanding.

[the dupe]

You're probably right. I've seen at least 25 tea party related events in the past year and zero anti war circle jerks, but then that's my fault for traveling in circles less worldly.

[spambot]

You mean the antiwar rallies that no longer exist after Obama won even though nothing AT ALL changed with regard to the war? You mean those?

[Tony]

No, actually they haven't stopped. This is what I'm talking about. Even after Obama antiwar protests outnumber teabaggers. You just won't hear about them in the media as much, which is nothing new.

[JR]

OK, Tony, whatever you say. How's the weather in your world?

[lee]

I didn't realize these immigration rallies prohibited senior citizens. They're all spring chikens, huh?

The tea partiers work, and at least they contributed in taxes to the benefits they receive. Illegals also pay taxes, but many don't. Employers routinely pay illegals cash under the table to avoid any kind of tax obligation. The few times I've visited free clinics, I've seen 90% Latinos. My sister is a pharmicist. You don't honestly think hospitals turn away illegal seniors?

May day rallies are HARDLY spontaneous. Are you kidding me? If anything, they're more organized than the tea parties. Why do you think there were more American flags compared to previous rallies?

National deficits and increasing taxes are REAL concerns. They affected illegal immigrants years before this law passed. I was an illegal, and I know real crap we had to deal with. Pete Wilson's regin wasn't too long ago. But nigthly immigration raids ranked pretty near the bottom in the list of our daily concerns.

[ToHayekWithYou]

I'm laughing my ass off at the "relatively low turnout" remark. It makes me happy to hear it though because it means there are still people buying into the media spin which will make it all the easier to get more fiscally conservative people elected come November.

Let's face it, everyone at an immigration rally or a mayday parade could disappear tomorrow and the economy would not skip a beat. But the Tea Partiers are the ones who pay the bills for everyone else's excesses. They are the parents in our society. They are the mature and responsible demographic of small business owners etc... Without them everything comes grinding to a halt.

That is why they have to be marginalized... even if it means lying about their numbers and ridiculing them.

[Tony]

Well, they are mature, as in old, and definitely don't want government touching their medicare.

[Che is dead]

So, the government confiscates their earnings during their entire working lives - earnings that they could have used to provide for their own health care needs in retirement - and you're shocked that they actually want the government to provide the services that it's promised to provide? How about just returning their money? Oh, that's right, you lefty assholes have already spent it.

[Tony]

But that would be admitting socialism works.

Look it's perfectly clear what teabaggers want. Socialism for themselves, but not for brown people.

[the dupe]

Illegal brown people. Illegal yellows too. Illegal hebes, towel heads, chinks, pollacks, krauts,....well, you get the idea.

[Che is dead]

Look around asshole, most of the "brown people" of the world already have socialism. That's why they want to come here.

What's clear to me is that the ballsuckers, like you, don't have a real argument so you resort to sreaming "racist". Fucking loser.

[the dupe]

Uh, I was screaming "illegal", not "racist". More bigoted than racist actually, but the key word was still "illegal".

[Wegie]

Eat brown people!

[Ed]

Let's see, they elected the politicians who established and perpetuated the social security ponzi scheme that pays more in outlays than it has revenues. Sounds like this: They got ripped off and did nothing to stop it from happening and now they want to rip off my children who work to pay their SSN benefits while my children will NEVER see a penny of the money they are paying to SSN.

Those receiving SSN benefits are not entitled to any compensation if that compensation depends upon ripping off other people, whether its their SSN or medicare.

Is that left wing enough for you?

[Don]

Tony, you are sorely misinformed:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127.....phics.aspx

You biases are obvious to all.

[Tony]

Congratulations, you can read a headline.

That poll does nothing to refute my assertion that teabaggers want socialism for themselves and nobody else.

[Marshall Gill]

That poll does nothing to refute my assertion that teabaggers want socialism for themselves and nobody else.

You would know. But what do the Tea Partiers want?

[Tony]

To rid the world of logic, humor, and good taste?

[Wegie]

Maybe brown people taste good.

[Che is dead]

What did you say Tony, I can't understand a thing you're saying with my balls in your mouth.

[EMp]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

[J.T.]

You know Tony, trolling about teabaggers here is only going to get a rise out of about half of us. The other half are not fans of it either.

[E3LIVE LIFE TO THE FULLEST]

@R C Dean - "Street protests are thinly veiled threats of violence. They are a way fo saying, subliminally, "Submit to our demands, or we'll go Greek on your ass."

Actually, policemen and military carrying guns are unveiled threats of violence. They say CLEAR AS CRYSTAL 'obey my demands or you shall be shot'.

Don't forget...what is it that makes the law legal? Guns!

[Boston]

Agreed completely which is why we need to start banding together to ban all these silly Tea party street protests

[Jo Wawawa]

Im surtprised that redneck hillbilly Sheriff Arpaio and his goon squad didnt show up to arrest them all!

Lou
http://www.anonymous-web-surfing.cz.tc

[Che is dead]

He's too busy making sure that Arizona's overall crime rate keeps falling. Or, didn't you read any of the other posts?

[Beezard]

Call that Justice? well it just ain't fair!
How much longer before they care?
Call that justice from an alien judge, jailed for fightin for the land you love!

[Marshall Gill]

What would have been really interesting would have been if you had asked some of these people their political views regarding issues not related to immigration, just for context. It was a May Day parade, after all.

I am certain that they would have expressed their distaste for coercive government and support for Liberty.

[GORGES]

So that's what an illegal looks like?

[tenletters]

Yes it is. It's been widely reported that most of those in attendence arrived in the trunk of a car.

[Astropud]

"Yes it is. It's been widely reported that most of those in attendence arrived in the trunk of a car."

That's just because it's cooler in there.

[Wegie]

They were conceived in the trunk of a car.

[Beezard]

I was in L.A. and the surrounding area during the last Strike-march-protest thingy.

I remember driving through the thick of a bunch of people waving Mexican flags and hooting and hollering, and I have to say, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

I support immigration reform, I hate Arizona's law, and I have no problem with someone traveling to make a buck and a better life. But if you're going to protest your conditions in a country you were never invited into, and wave your OWN country's flag around in the process, the only response you'll get from me is "Mexico's THAT-a-way, bro".

Although I should add, by the time we got out into Temecula, we saw Hispanic landscapers (illegal or otherwise) by the hundreds who seemed like they'd rather earn a days pay then march for their "rights".

[The Flame]

Oh fuck! Every fucking times, I'm getting tried of seeing somethings like Hispanic landscapers (illegal or otherwise).

I would love to punch your fucking face and all others's face who think Illegals=brownies.

[Aselin]

I agree with the protestors: "What do we want? JUSTICE! When do we want it? NOW!"

Justice would be just fine with me.

[pat_mawiener]

I have to admit, I too thought that chant odd, until I realized it was an endorsement for Joe Arpaio in his bid for reelection.

[R C Dean]

That would include teabagger protests right?

Sure. I don't see any reason to exclude the gay rights protests.

[Che is dead]

After watching that video, I'll be viewing all future Reason.tv videos with increased skepticism. Here's a video from the Atlanta, GA "Pro-Illegal Immigration Rally". Having attended a rally in San Francisco last year, I can say that the Georgia video is far closer to the truth. Try to imagine the outrage if neo-nazis were allowed to pass out propaganda, set up booths and participate openly at a Tea Party event. Yet, these protestors openly embrace communists. And while Tea Partiers confront and drive off extremists, the illegal supporters display the hammer and cycle with pride. Reason needs to stop with the propaganda or it will quickly lose it's credibility.

[Beezard]

Reds out of Poland!

[mr simple]

Are you saying you don't believe the rally actually happened? And as evidence you're providing something completely different but mildly related? Oh, I get it now, you're saying we need limits on free speech. Good luck finding supporters here for that.

[Che is dead]

"mr. simple", how appropriate. No, I'm saying that the video deliberately ignores the leftist element in an attempt to portray the protestors in a more favorable light. Maybe you should actually attend one of these rally's before spouting off.

[Beezard]

Stories concocted in a liar's lair,
How could you do it when you weren't there?!

[Beezard]

Skrewdriver lyrics are fun.

[Brian]

I agree with Che is dead--at the New York rally, all the pro-immigration folks were waving Mexican flags and carrying Che pictures. It drove me to go join in with the anti-immigration protesters. Also note, the pro-immigration folks wouldn't join in singing "God Bless America". The pro-immigration folks are sending the completely wrong message, that they're socialists/leftists trying to bring their nuttiness to America and transform it in their image. I don't get the impression from the protesters that they actually want to come to America and become Americans.

[Beezard]

Oh no! Here comes a commie! (red star on his breast!)

..sorry, last one, I promise..

Anyhoo, some of them ARE socialists/leftists who want to change the country in their image, just like some anti-illegal immigrant folks are just being racist wankers. But there are solid libertarian principles involved in drawing attention to the stupidity of the Arizona law.

I do share your concern that there wasn't even an ironic quip from Reason that this was a Mayday event.

[Joe C]

Just because someone refuses to sing "God Bless America," doesn't mean they're a pinko. I'm an atheist and I love liberty and capitalism but I'm not a fan of that song, "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, etc.

[J.T.]

Ugh. Worst America song ever.

[J.T.]

Ugh. Worst America song ever.

[PabloKoh]

Thanks for the link.

[mr simple]

I'm against Arizona's law as much as the next rational person, but what the hell is a protest in LA going to do about a law in Arizona? Protests rarely work when they're in the right city.

[Julie Anne Burton]

I don't get it. You're required to carry personal identification as a citizen. When we travel abroad, we're required to present our passport all the time, and no one protests about that. How is asking for documentation showing you're here legally any different?

The Arizona law contains exactly the same content as the federal law. Why is no one protesting in Washington? Is it that we had the temerity to take matters into our own hands when several years of appeals to the federal government were ignored? When the President, the INS and the Department of Homeland Security refused to meet with our Governor, both our Senators, and all our Congresscritters? Or is it because it's already estimated that 100,000 illegals have left Arizona, most of them going to California or Texas, and they don't want them either?

Arizonans don't try to tell other states how to run themselves. If you don't like our law, then don't live here, and please, feel free not to stop here for a vacation, but shut up about it. Seriously, do you want *us* telling you how to run *your* state? I bet the Attorney General of San Francisco who called for an Arizona boycott would love it if our largely elderly, conservative population tried to rewrite *his* laws.

We're a state with a population of 9.5 million, 1.5 million of whom are estimated to be illegals. And the next person who tries to tell me that they're not a drain on our services will get a piece of choya cactus shoved down his/her throat.

I'd prefer that we had open immigration with a ban on services, except child education, until you'd been a verifiable resident for five years. But that's not the law, it's not going to be the law in the foreseeable future, and we have a problem right now. Ideals are terrific, and I actively work towards achieving them. But I also live in the here and now.

Some examples:

I live right on the border, and we have thousands of people pouring in every day. I'm not using hyperbole -- a local rancher set up a camera system, and they showed parts of it on the news. In a 24-hr period, over 1500 people came over *just in that one spot alone*. The much-vaunted fence is simple chain link, about six feet high -- not even razor wire on the top. On both ours and Mexican side, in many places you can see a 4" wide steel "shelf" has been welded about halfway up the fence, so all one need do is grab the top of the fence, hop up and over to the *other* shelf, and drop down. Border Patrol break off the shelves on this side as best they can, but their efforts are pretty futile. There are also gaps in the fence of 20 miles or so at a time.

School buses stop two blocks up from the border crossing on the main drag in Douglas. Why? Because approximately 750 students come in from Mexico every day to attend Douglas public schools. They register using false addresses in that area. The principal's hands are tied, as is the school board's. The elementary school has more illegal aliens for students than citizens.

Go to any emergency room, go to any Dept. of Economic Security office -- you'll see plenty of illegals (or at least you will until this bill becomes active). How do I know they're illegals? Because they don't have identification and don't speak English. Most, though not all, Hispanic citizens speak English, and they all have identification because it's state law that all adults have either a driver's license or state ID card.

People are being murdered in their homes. The rancher whose death made the national news recently was not the first one, nor will he be the last. Anyone who interferes with coyotes and their cargo is likely to be murdered. I myself have had a gun held to my head on my own land, and can no longer use my back 40 because it's become a coyote trail.

Thousands of illegals die in the desert every year. Some die from thirst, many are killed by their coyotes. The feds don't pay for retrieving their bodies and disposing of them -- we do. Aside from the literal cost, the human cost is heartbreaking.

Millions of tons of garbage are being dumped on our fragile desert ecosystem. The feds don't pay for trying to clean it up -- we do.

As it is, we live in a police state. Border Patrol have set up permanent checkpoints well past the legal zone, and they stop every car and demand you tell them your citizenship, where you came from, and where you're going. If I've got time to spare while they tear my car apart, I show them my passport and decline to answer the other questions. But to do so adds about 2 hours to my day, sitting in the open sun in 110 degree weather, so I admit sometimes I just comply. You can't drive five miles without seeing at least one BP car, and they pull over anyone they feel like. I get stopped about 8 times a year.

We cut our budget to the bone last year, and we're still billions of dollars in the red. As a percentage of its budget, Arizona has the biggest budget deficit of any state in the nation, *and we don't like it*. Illegals *are* a drain on our services. Many people have tried to show me studies that claim illegals make no negative difference to a state economy. I don't possibly see how this can be so, since they're not paying state income tax, and ours is moderately high.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that boycotting the Cold Stone Creamery at 83C Faunce Corner Mall Rd in Dartmouth, MA is going to put any particular pressure in the Arizona Legislature. I can see it putting a Massachusetts college kid out of work easily enough, and if that's what you want to accomplish, I'm fine with it. But just so you know, the Arizona Senate doesn't really own the company.

And if you've really got to boycott Arizona Iced Tea, I'm OK with that. It's not entirely unlike protesting the Chinese occupation of Tibet by refusing to buy Canadian products, but do what you've got to do.

17% of all the Hispanic-owned businesses in the country are located in Arizona, and one out of three workers here is Hispanic. While you're labeling your signs, organizing your marches, or writing in your blog, remember that you're doing it for the greater good, and tell yourselves that a boycott of the state won't hurt the very people you're trying to protect. You'd be wrong, but if believing it makes you feel better, then I'm all for it.

And before we're all painted as xenophobic, 58% of Arizonans favor an open immigration policy. By the way, a Zogby survey found that 56 percent of Hispanics said immigration levels were too high. Some 61 percent of Hispanics Zogby surveyed said inadequate enforcement was the cause of current illegal immigration levels, while only 20 percent blamed too few legal immigration opportunities. Some 65 percent of Hispanics also said there were enough Americans available to do unskilled jobs. And by a 52-34 margin, Zogby found that Latinos favor immigration policies which encourage illegals to go home rather than promote amnesty.

I live in a predominately Hispanic neighborhood. The new law came up in discussion at our last Neighborhood Association meeting. Not a single Hispanic there opposed the law; rather the opposite.

And for those who claim we're discriminating against brown people, and fear racial profiling, you'd really better take another look. For one thing, the bill prohibits it. For another, there's *plenty* of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, lily-white Mexicans. Many Hispanics from Mexico are white to a gentle tan. The "brown people" are those with Native American (in the continental sense) blood in them, and while some of them may be Mexican citizens, they're not the majority of the Hispanic population in this area, and law enforcement officials know it -- especially since a large percentage of our law enforcement officers are Hispanic themselves. I'm an auburn-haired, blue-eyed, very fair-skinned fifty year old woman with a strong southern accent. Border Patrol pulls me over all the time and even after hearing my accent, asks for my papers.

I apologize for the lack of organization in this note, but I've gotten to the point where I can't communicate well on this subject. I think I'm done and then more things pop into my head. In essence, if you don't live here, you don't understand the problem. If you haven't read the law in its entirety, including the amendments, then you've no business speaking on the subject. And if you don't have a better plan, then please, don't speak.

Let the bashing begin. I don't know if I'll be back to this page or not -- it all depends on how feisty I feel. I'm getting pretty tired of defending my own business against people who have no concept. Everyone keeps saying the solution is open immigration. Again, I agree. But that's not the case right now, and Arizona desperately needs to be able to enforce the law the federal government refuses to. Unless, of course, you'd like to foot the bill.

[Beezard]

I'm not here to bash you Julie, but there are a few points I could make:

The Arizona law contains exactly the same content as the federal law. Why is no one protesting in Washington?

Immigration is not a state jurisdiction. I'm sure most of the protesters don't even know what the law is, but what many Federalist minded folks should be leery of is Arizona taking it upon itself to regulate the national border.

I can understand the popular dissatisfaction that leads to supporting this, but if you value the constitution, two wrongs aren't going to make a right.

Border Patrol pulls me over all the time and even after hearing my accent, asks for my papers.

And is allowing a whole other set of Patrols the power to demand ID the best thing to do to save your towns budget problems?

have you been pulled over when you left your ID at home? That Border Patrol's probably going to go a little easier on you than someone of a different demographic (so to speak).

But personal experiences are important to shaping opinions, so I can see why you feel the way you feel.

Here's my circumstances:
Where I live and work, there is a huge population of Russians, Africans, and Caribbeans. I'm sure many of them are illegal, and I'm quite often culturally annoyed by their omnipresence. But they work and they buy stuff with their own money, as opposed to the even bigger percent of the local population who drive a lexus and buy lobster with foodstamps...

[Jen]

Arizona's not actually regulating the national border, they're just enforcing the law. And yes, this is their jurisdiction: policing powers belong to the states.

[Jon]

General police powers do belong to the states, but immigration is not part of that package. Arizona police could still fight drug violence perpetrators without giving police probable cause to stop and detain suspected illegal aliens on that basis alone.
Also:
"Many people have tried to show me studies that claim illegals make no negative difference to a state economy. I don't possibly see how this can be so, since they're not paying state income tax, and ours is moderately high." Do you typically ignore studies that purport to prove what you dislike? Can you present a study that demonstrates the illegal immigration causes the economic problems you believe? Your point is addressed here: http://udallcenter.arizona.edu.....ants08.pdf
The main thrust is that cost that the state bears for providing uncompensated services to illegal immigrants is outweighed by direct and indirect benefits received. This is because illegal immigrants still consume and pay sales tax and expand labor markets thereby expanding tax revenues from businesses.

[Jen]

Please point me to where in the Constitution it says that States have police powers "except regarding immigration."

[Jon]

You'll find it right next to where it doesn't explicitly say that states cannot declare war on foreign countries, which is next to the provision that says that states cannot coin their own money. In other words, you'll have to actually read case law interpreting Art. I sec. 8 (and perhaps the above analogous provisions), which gives Congress exclusive power to "establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization . . . ."

[John Rohan]

Beezard wrote:
Immigration is not a state jurisdiction. I'm sure most of the protesters don't even know what the law is, but what many Federalist minded folks should be leery of is Arizona taking it upon itself to regulate the national border.

This is one of the biggest canards in this debate. Arizona isn't doing ANYTHING to "regulate" its border. They aren't authorizing immigration (quite the opposite, actually), they aren't issuing visas, they aren't deciding who comes in or not. The only thing they are doing is requiring everyone in the state to follow federal law, something that should be happening anyway.

I can understand the popular dissatisfaction that leads to supporting this, but if you value the constitution, two wrongs aren't going to make a right.

If you value the Constitution, let's value all of it, not just pick and choose. Look at Article IV, section IV, for example:

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion"

[Beezard]

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion

Yeah, Invasion. Not each others supposed entitlement to our jobs.

[Beezard]

Arizona isn't doing ANYTHING to "regulate" its border.

That's not what most supporters of the law believe. This argument seems like a "have your cake and keep it handcuffed while it goes into labor, too" proposition.
Or is it OK for the states to mirror any federal power within their own state?

Fine, lawyer logic away. It's still a clear violation of the 4th.

[Jen]

"It's still a clear violation of the 4th."

Uh, no. Read the 4th sometime. Anyone who's worried about Arizona's "reasonable suspicion" should equally be getting his/her panties in a bunch over "probable cause."

[John Rohan]

"Yeah, Invasion. Not each others supposed entitlement to our jobs."

Jobs aside - If you have lived in Arizona (as I have), you will see that human trafficking, drug smuggling, and narco-related crimes are a de facto invasion.

Yes, I know, Reason.com wants to legalize drugs. Well, until that happens, you need to do something to halt the violence.

[Beezard]

Well, until that happens, you need to do something to halt the violence.

I dunno. Does it? Are you really living in abject fear. Sucks in Baltimore and DC, too. But we don't need show laws in order to violate people's rights. Are cops just do it. And it's still a blood bath.

[Jon]

Drug smuggling and violence are already well within the province of state law enforcement jurisdiction. Arizona doesn't need a new law to address this.

The phrase you refer to about protection against foreign invasion has no applicability. Unless, of course, you believe that the Constitution's framers hated the Irish and resented immigration . . . .

[John Rohan]

Since the problem is getting worse and Phoenix has become the kidnapping capital of the world, obviously they do need something new to address the problem.

And the phrase is "protect each of them against invasion", not "foreign invasion". Do you really think an invasion can only consist of uniformed soldiers from a sovereign state? How many wars in the world currently fit this mold? Even in the 18th century, I doubt the framers would have been so rigid in their thinking.

[taltoris]

The biggest problem with this law is that it removes people's 4th amendment rights to not be searched without probable cause. When reasonable suspicion is the only standard, it effectively eliminates safeguards we have in place to prevent the police from abusing their power. A police officer will never be asked to justify that his suspicion is reasonable, but they are routinely required to defend that they had probable cause. SB1070 removes the judiciary from the legal process.

The right to not be searched unreasonably is one of our most fundamental ones, so any bill that tries to strip that is an attack on liberty itself.

For the record, I am also an AZ native, though I live on the northern end.

[pat_mawiener]

Reasonable suspicion is almost ALWAYS the "only standard" for probable cause, except when you actually shoot at the policeman. Furthermore an officer is ALWAYS asked (through the prosecutor, at trial) to justify his suspicion, and SB1070 changes nothing in this regard.
The only reason I can conceive, for an attack on "reasonable suspicion" is that there are so fucking many illegals one could assume most ANY latino could be one.

[Weygand]

Assuming you're telling the truth (and I have no reason to assume you aren't but this is the internet) people outside of border states have little to no clue about the reality necessitating the Arizona law. The reason you don't get the backlash is because you are free of the hyperbole and actually understand the real implications of the federal government to secure our borders to protect our own citizens from the threat posed by human trafficking.

Great Post.

[Joe Schmoe]

Thanks Julie.

I moved from Chicago to Phoenix and was totally blown away by the immigration issues here in this state.

From the "dump houses" in family neighborhoods where 60+ illegals are kept under lock, key and gun, waiting for transport to other destinations; to shoot outs on Interstate 10 between rival coyotes; to being the kidnapping capital of America (almost one a day), honestly, what in the world does the rest of the country expect us to live with?

Arizona is turning into an extension of the crime from south of the border. Sheriff Joe may be beaten like a pi?ata in the press, and nobody will admit in public they like what he does, but he hasn't been beaten at the ballot box. Either Maricopa County is sucking down peyote on Election Day, or the people of the most populated county in Arizona is just damn tired of the crap that goes on. We're just stepping it up a notch to make sure that the whole crime thing gets ratcheted in the right direction ? down not up.

I'm sure that if Denmark was south of our border and they were exporting their crimes of knurhane fish smuggling, Gammel Dansk bootlegging, and stealing Folkedrakt right off the shelves, we'd want them to toe the line too. Color or race has absolutely nothing to do with it. Remember, we have the toughest DUI laws in the country and the whole rainbow of human color has spent time in tent city wearing pink undies.

Not that everyone south of the border is a criminal, but if you come here w/o going through the proper channels (illegal), don't pay taxes (illegal), use someone's identity to get work or credit or whatever (illegal), you should really look in the mirror before you get po'd at the host you have invaded.

One of the facets of the law goes after companies that hire illegals. Great. I don't want to subsidize anyone that isn't paying individuals the going market rate for their hard work.

Don't give me the argument about "doing the work nobody else wants to" crap either. The free market should decide what the going wage for any job is, not whether you're legally in a country and have to take what someone is willing to force you into. Not having a voice because you're really not supposed to be here only helps the company that hires you because they don't have to pay an honest wage. The company benefits by not paying proper wages or taxes or health insurance and the rest of the society has to feed the worker(food stamps), train the worker, and insure the worker(medicare). How is that fair?

If you don't like the law write to you representative. If your from another state, let us solve or own problems, but don't tell us how to vote.

[SirNomad]

They don't like when existing immigration laws get enforced. Arizona's law is a GOOD thing. 1/4 of the hispanic population of the state is here illegally. One... in... four. My grandparents came here legally, why can't these people? They're criminals plain and simple. They commit a crime by being here and continue to commit crimes routinely. They cry and whine about it when they get busted for stealing someone's identity "cuz they wanna work". The claim discrimination, when it's totally fair, all illegals should be deported and banned from ever having a "path to citizenship" here. They've shown how little they respect our country by coming here illegally. There IS a path to citizen ship, immigrate LEGALLY you morons!

[St?phane Dumas]

Good point you mention SirNomad, I spotted a video who talk a similar rant at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_ylVIcoWRo

[TaterSalad]

Texas student suspended for removing Mexican flag from school grounds:

http://patriotupdate.com/stori.....xican-Flag

http://www.ktrh.com/pages/michaelberry.html

[RockLibertyWarrior]

As I have always said I would agree to a border less, free flowing immigration under one condition. That they completely dismantle all aspects of the welfare state, and we will see if the immigrants really want to come here for work and opportunity to improve their lives.

[melissa]

We can't afford to continue being a welfare state for the people that are here now, so we certainly can't afford to be a welfare state for millions more. But why can't we have an open border with Mexico and allow people to come here on long visas or as residents. Keep citizenship as restricted as you want, and don't let residents qualify for any kind of welfare. (Of course, this still costs us plenty in terms of education and health care for children born here. And possibly in caring for laborers too old to work. But Mexican immigrants help build our economy. And removing the need for often corrupt guides across the border should decimate crime those areas.)

[Wegie]

Do any of these fucking idiots consider staying in Mexico and making it better???

[natural-law-not-man's-law]

Do you believe in Natural Law or laws created by man? If you do, then isn't the freedom to seek out where you wish to live and work one of the most basic rights given man by God? I question all of those who are so adamantly against illegal immigration to search out the true motives in their hearts. All I hear are arguments about how illegal immigrants use up tax money. Well, to me the REAL issue is the tax system and the government! If we had truly free markets and real liberty in these United States, then this issue would be void. What we really need to do is to turn our focus against the governmental system. Eliminate governmental controls on labor, monetary policy, business, medical industry, etc, etc, etc then there would be no resources for anyone to abuse!

[pat_mawiener]

This Natural Law canard would most certainly result in lowering the world standard of living common denominator to that just slightly above a shithole.
The very reason for sovereignty is that you feel you can achieve a standard above that of someone (everyone) else, whether just for some (dictator) or for everyone within your sovereign. It's the same bullshit justification for ceding sovereignty under the banner of a United Nations or European Union (or New World Order), which basically attempts to stabelize like shitholes together in order to better compete with the few sovereigns that have their individual shit together. It's always a good sounding idea for those confident they will be among the ruling order (and there will ALWAYS be a ruling order), for it allows conquest without the risk of the freeman bullet. It's also one great argument for the Second Amendment so loathed by the left.

[natural-law-not-man's-law]

"So in everything, do unto others as you would done unto you, for this is the sum of the Law and the Prophets." -Matthew 7:12
I'm with Jesus over any U.S. or world leader any day.

[pat_mawiener]

Me too. Let's imagine then, wwjd.

He did, in fact, issue the edict to "render unto Caesar that which is his", and if memory serves me he was making that illustration from the face of some currency, issued by the Roman government. You'll have to give me better documentation if you'll have me believe He was against secular government in any way.

The fight here is against unneccesarily intrusive government, not government per se. Now if, as you say, we have neither "truly free markets and real liberty in these United States", perhaps you could point me in the direction where your location of earthly nirvana resides.

You seem to be confused with some heavenly ideal rather than any workable earthly reality. It's not a bad philosophy, but let's wait until we've universely beaten the sin out of the populace before we give it a shot.

Maybe JC would have the alien work diligently, at home, to mirror this American Ideal he seeks, after all the US needs all the help it can get. It would save him a trip, and us a culture.

[natural-law-not-man's-law]

You're right, Jesus would seek out, arrest, detain and deport those dirty illegals back to their countries of origin in order to save U.S. culture.
My bad...been misunderstanding the Bible. Guess I'll have to re-read it.

[pat_mawiener]

Easy priest, easy. You can begin by quit misunderstanding what I said, that Jesus just might suggest of the beaner he stay home in the first place which would eliminate the need for the arrest, detainment and deportation. Now, stfu and go read Deuteronomy, this time with a good Concordance.

[natural-law-not-man's-law]

Deuteronomy = old covenant. I guess you think we should set up Cities of Refuge for those who commit manslaughter to run to.

In case you haven't heard the good news, Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and established a new covenant with a new commandment. John 14:12 - "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you" BTW this covenant is with everyone, not just the Israelites. "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Now, back to the original point. Government has grown so large, with so much power in so many areas that liberty is dying and every social, economic or political problem can be explained by the faith of the masses in government over God.

Do you honestly believe that by arresting the immigrants that this will put an end to human or drug trafficking? We should learn our lessons from history. The Prohibition Era created an entire crime syndicate. Human and drug trafficking are symptoms of the same disease today. The focus is once again off of the problems created by leviathan government onto an outside enemy.

The fact is that government has outgrown its only valid purpose. To protect the natural rights of the people.

We need to wake up and realize that none of us are entitled to certain standard of living. Wake up and understand that big government is taking our God given liberty away day by day in the name of security. Wake up and realize that the "lifestyle" we have all become accustomed to is false and unsustainable. Wake up and turn back to God and follow Deuteronomy 6:5 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." and begin doing this by living in his NEW covenant and command.

[pat_mawiener]

Uh...roger that. but, before I head for the seminary:

"Do you honestly believe that by arresting the immigrants that this will put an end to human or drug trafficking?"

No, this will put an end to a lot of illegal aliens (who may or may not traffic in drugs and humans), which is what it is intended to do.

"The fact is that government has outgrown its only valid purpose. To protect the natural rights of the people."

I'm sure it's widely accepted that the "people" in question here are the legal citizens under the governments sovereignity, not people in Iran, Bolivia, Uzbeckistan, Mexico, or here illegally from any of the above.

You're 0 for 2 priest.

[natural-law-not-man's-law]

I cannot understand your love affair with the state and with nationalism. History shows that this is never a good combination. My prayer is that you will never face the things that you uphold. May you never have to be at the end of the gun of your beloved government.

[pat_mawiener]

You can't stick with any one argument and see it through can you?

[TaterSalad]

Hey Illegal Amigo. Go back home and fix your own counrty and come to the U.S. the legal way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

[The Flame]

I'm sick of seeing reason bring immigration up every times.

It will attract white guilt-filled pricks, dumbasses who want to make all immigrants speak only english, morons who want to stop it for to save the jobs, and racists.

[pat_mawiener]

And the occasional dumb fuck, such as yourself, that doesn't even have those arguments to make.

[The Flame]

Piss off, dipshit.

[John]

lol, The Flame likes smegma.

[John]

lol, The Flame likes smegma.

[The Flame]

Blow me, bitch.

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[TaterSalad]

Tell us why the police have not arrested this L.A. teacher ??

This kind of speech/hate is what the liberals/Democrats are are supporting. The overthrow of America and capitalism right here in America.

http://sroblog.com/2010/05/08/.....mment-8410

[TaterSalad]

How about quit being a whimp Mr. President and take care of the immigration laws and try to even enforce them.

Our President is a complete joke and here is why: Maybe he will invite the Governor of Arizona to the Rose Garden over for a "beer" like he did with the cop for having an arrogant, smartass mouth.

Why isn't this L.A. teacher in jail anyhow?

http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=26776#comment-32667

[e]

Hahaha I love how the Reason audience is exactly the same as the Freepers as far as immigration goes..suddenly it's all about legality and government papers stamped and in the right order.

[pat_mawiener]

Yeah, that "nation of laws and not of men" thingey get's a bit tricky at times.

[ABUSE]

In democratic societies like the United States, the voting process is a means by which citizens hold their government accountable, conflicts are channeled into resolutions, and power transfers peacefully. Our system of representative government works only when honest ballots are not diluted by fraudulent ballots. When elections become corrupted, democracy becomes threatened.
The FBI has a limited role in ensuring fair and free elections in the United States. Election crimes become federal cases when:
The ballot includes one or more federal candidates;
The crime involves an election official abusing his duties;
The crime pertains to fraudulent voter registration;
Voters are not U.S. citizens.
First Name: kenyan born at the white house
Last Name: TRUTH
Address: AMERICA
Address: INPEACH OBAMA
City: USA
State: usa THE END OF AMERICA
NPR archive describes Obama as 'Kenyan-born'
Michelle say Barack born in Kenya
Obama's grandmother say he was born in Kenya
Subject: OBAMA SAID approval ratings are still very high in the country of my birth.
Message: INPEACH OBAMA TO THE WEAK-KNEED REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRAT
obama people have no idea of the extent to which they have to be gulled in order to be led." "The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of the nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell a big one." "All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will understand it. Therefore, the intellectual level of the propaganda must be lower the larger the number of people who are to be influenced by it." "Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise. "pelosi don't see much future for the Americans ... it's a decayed country. And they have their racial problem, and the problem of social &^% ...obama feelings against Americanism are feelings of hatred and deep repugnance ... everything about the behaviour of American society reveals that it's half &^%, and the other half &^& How can one expect a State like that to hold TOGTHER.They include the angry left wing bloggers who spread vicious lies and half-truths about their political adversaries... Those lies are then repeated by the duplicitous left wing media outlets who "discuss" the nonsense on air as if it has merit? The media's justification is apparently "because it's out there", truth be damned. State: *usa Obama chuckles at America*
If YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR, YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT. Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison,There is no immigration allowed in China, India, Bangladesh, Russia, Japan, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Turkey and MOST other countries YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ A DOCUMENT. WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAIL TIME. REPOST THIS IF YOU AGREE!! ((STOP COMMUNIST OBAMA)) THE COMMANDER

[ABUSE]

In democratic societies like the United States, the voting process is a means by which citizens hold their government accountable, conflicts are channeled into resolutions, and power transfers peacefully. Our system of representative government works only when honest ballots are not diluted by fraudulent ballots. When elections become corrupted, democracy becomes threatened.
The FBI has a limited role in ensuring fair and free elections in the United States. Election crimes become federal cases when:
The ballot includes one or more federal candidates;
The crime involves an election official abusing his duties;
The crime pertains to fraudulent voter registration;
Voters are not U.S. citizens.
First Name: kenyan born at the white house
Last Name: TRUTH
Address: AMERICA
Address: INPEACH OBAMA
City: USA
State: usa THE END OF AMERICA
NPR archive describes Obama as 'Kenyan-born'
Michelle say Barack born in Kenya
Obama's grandmother say he was born in Kenya
Subject: OBAMA SAID approval ratings are still very high in the country of my birth.
Message: INPEACH OBAMA TO THE WEAK-KNEED REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRAT
obama people have no idea of the extent to which they have to be gulled in order to be led." "The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of the nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell a big one." "All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will understand it. Therefore, the intellectual level of the propaganda must be lower the larger the number of people who are to be influenced by it." "Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise. "pelosi don't see much future for the Americans ... it's a decayed country. And they have their racial problem, and the problem of social &^% ...obama feelings against Americanism are feelings of hatred and deep repugnance ... everything about the behaviour of American society reveals that it's half &^%, and the other half &^& How can one expect a State like that to hold TOGTHER.They include the angry left wing bloggers who spread vicious lies and half-truths about their political adversaries... Those lies are then repeated by the duplicitous left wing media outlets who "discuss" the nonsense on air as if it has merit? The media's justification is apparently "because it's out there", truth be damned. State: *usa Obama chuckles at America*
If YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR, YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT. Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison,There is no immigration allowed in China, India, Bangladesh, Russia, Japan, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Turkey and MOST other countries YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ A DOCUMENT. WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAIL TIME. REPOST THIS IF YOU AGREE!! ((STOP COMMUNIST OBAMA)) THE COMMANDER

[Athletic Shoes]

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