Government-Run Insurance Markets, Taxes On Investment Income, A Trillion Dollars In New Spending, And A Federal Mandate To Buy Health Insurance: Welcome to ObamaCare!

Now that a promise of an executive order underlining existing restrictions on federal funding of abortion has brought Rep. Bart Stupak's pro-life faction on board, the Democrats' health care reform bill is now all but assured to pass by night's end.

One thing to note is that although the House will pass both the Senate bill and the reconciliation bill to amend it, they will only send the Senate bill to the President. That bill includes all sorts of legislative kickbacks and deals, and is so bad that, for weeks, House Democrats said they would never vote for it. Senate leadership has promised to pass the reconciliation bill unchanged, but it remains to be seen whether they will (or whether the Senate parliamentarian will object to any of its provisions). Either way, though, what passes tonight won't be an amended bill; it will be a bill filled with deals and favors that House Democrats have repeatedly criticized as too bad to pass.

Comments

[sunny black]

RIP America 1776-2010

[Syd Henderson]

Oh, grow up.

[Colonel_Angus]

Suck a dick.

[sunny black]

i second colonel_angus.

[Tom]

Oh, grow up.

Yeah? What will he learn, exactly, when he "grows up"? That America as it was conceived and designed actually DOES still exist?

As I've written many times here, this is perhaps one of the most vexing traits of progressives: the refusal to concede that their project really does run counter to the country's founding ideals. If nothing else, at least the debates would become more efficient if they'd just say, "Yes, goal X does infringe individual liberty; yes, it conflicts with the principles that underscored the country's founding. But here is why I have concluded that it's time to move on from those principles, and why they should be set aside in favor of goal X..."

As it stands, it's hard to escape the feeling that many progressives fail to even realize how their goals conflict with those principles -- let alone get to the point where they could concede as much. It's not even clear they really understand what those principles were. There's an inescapable air of ahistoricism around the American left's entire project.

[Paul]

Packing the court will resolve any constitutional sticking points...

[ghina]

maybe,.

[Shyne]

Well, the Progressive left took over the Democratic party in 1896 with the nomination of William Jennings Bryant. Woodrow Wilson's international adventurism and bold expansion of government all happened in the 1910s. (For the record, he--not Obama--is the Worst President Ever. But there's still time for Barry to catch up.)

Bottom line, those damn Progressive know-it-alls (ha!) own a pretty good chunk size of our history too!

[Tom]

Yes, progressivism is a century-long project. That doesn't negate any of my points.

[John C. Randolph]

"Progressivism" is also a misleading term. Reverting to feudal servitude, where the fruits of our labor belong to the king, and we have to supplicate for handouts, isn't progress.

-jcr

[Jeff]

God help us!

Just kidding. There is no God. 🙂

[Andrew S.]

Over/under on how long until the executive order is rescinded? I say 2 weeks.

[Paul]

It'll happen legislatively, not through executive order. Longer than 2 weeks, but it'll happen.

Never EVER underestimate the value of legislative feature creep.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Not until after November (unless it polls the other way).

[Jeffersonian]

It doesn't have to be rescinded. The bill that just passed authorizes funding for abortion, and no EO can override a statute. IOW, it'll be in effect until Obama signs the bill into law. It's pure kabuki.

[Gilbert Martin]

"and no EO can override a statute. "

And Stupak damn well knows that.

He was just looking for a fig leaf for voting yes and is counting on the idea that the public is too stupid to know it as well.

[Robert]

D'ohhhhhh...dough.

[Cookie Kwan]

Welcome to hell.

[Schempf]

What a shitty day

[Episiarch]

You said it. Not only is this thing going to pass, but when I went out for a run after learning that Stupak caved, a nasty rainstorm rolled just as I was starting and ended just as I finished the run. It seemed fitting.

[Groovus Maximus]

I now know, truly and viscerally, how Kirk felt when he screamed:

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

[Fist of Etiquette]

I shall leave you as you left the poor, as you left the uninsured. Marooned for what seems like an eternity, at the center of a understaffed hospital waiting room.

Buried in government bureaucracy...

Buried in government bureaucracy...

[JW]

From hell's endless queue, I stab at thee...

For deem and pass' sake, I spit my last breath...at thee...

[Groovus Maximus]

Which leads me to a caption contest:

"Can I cook, or can't I?"

[.]

"Hey, look, I finally got it unstuck from my ass - and it's not even broke!"

[Paul]

Epi, I woke up from my hangover about the time that rainstorm blew in. That's when I knew something evil was afoot.

[Episiarch]

I was heading out to Alaskan and that thing just blew in, literally with no warning. It was ridiculous how it started 30 seconds after I left the building. But, I shrugged and said "at least the rain isn't Obama or Burt Stupak".

[kate]

It's been gloomy all day and the wind has picked up like a storm is rolling in with the speed and silence of impending doom.

i.e., we're all fucked.

[bmp1701]

November can't come soon enough.

[Ice]

You mean so republicans get elected and basically screw up as much as Obama has been? Nothing will change if the republicans win, there will still be more wars, more entitlement programs going bankrupt, and more civil liberties fading away

[Fist of Etiquette]

While voter retribution is what has us bent over, cheeks spread, this very day, there is something to be said for legislative gridlock.

[sunny black]

yeah, you're right...republicans are the same as Obama..?!

[Ice]

honestly, I cant tell much difference from Obama and the republicans

[Vengeful Voter]

Then you must be retarded.

[Vengeful Voter]

This retarded "they're all the same" attitude of yours is what gave the Democrats the House, the Senate, and the Executive branch.

You vomited in your own bed when you spewed this fraudulent moral equivalency crap back in 2008, loserdopians. Now lie in it.

[Ice]

That's weird how do you know who I voted for in 2008? I haven't voted democrat yet, I usually only vote Libertarian. I'm against Obama as much as I am against the republicans. I knew back then nothing good would come out of the Democrats and I know that nothing good will come out of the republicans if they sweep the elections this year.

[SIV]

Gridlock Obstructionism Payback

Sounds good to me!

[tkwelge]

Now now guys, remember it is the time of great adversity that creates the strongest among us. I'm proud to be young right now, I have a lifetime to fight, yet. Let's not tear each other apart.

[Mr. FIFY]

The new troll is the same as the old trolls. Fuck 'em all.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Right on! These people refused to be ruled by logic! They don't have any influence on republicans or democrats. All they do is marginalize libertarianism.

[Paul]

We've been through this argument before, and the only thing a GOP supporter could I.D. as a 'meaningful difference' was Free Trade.

Free Trade. And even that requires seven asterisks after it for specific, nebulous clarifications. Ok, so the GOP still likes NAFTA, kinda, depending on the specific provision, just don't fund any foreign abortions.

I'm sleepin' better at night.

[SIV]

Taxes

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Is that supposed to be an argument? What the hell does NAFTA have to do with abortion?

[That Chick from OH]

(Copied from previous H&R HCR thread)

Need some investment advice: Where's the most effective (not necessarily the most "ideologically pure") place to put my money to fight this ugly bill-apparently-about-to-be-law? I'm in western OH, which is pretty solidly R in the House (as opposed to eastern OH, pretty solidly D,) our R senator is retiring this year, and our D senator isn't up for re-election until '12. Should I put my money into:

1. State Republican party
B. RNC
III. More guns & ammo (if so, hand or long?) or
? Some other effort like a "Legal Offense Fund" to support a constitutional challenge?

[Marc]

Why any of these in particular? You can donate to the campaigns of reasonable R's (read: libertarian RINOs) in other states.

I just chucked some more cash at Peter Schiff and Rand Paul.

As Paul is about to say, f**k the Republicans.

[That Chick from OH]

Don't mind supporting libertarian RINOs in other states, but I was kinda hoping for a receipt appropriate for faxing to the Dem Sen.

[Marc]

Shit, if that's all you want, then contribute $1, wait for the email confirmation, change it to $1000 before printing it, then fax it.

[Hank]

Word!

[Episiarch]

Save your money. You're going to need it.

More guns never hurts, though.

[Marc]

Good thing for McDonald v. Chicago.

[Bingo]

Educate yourself and do whatever you can do give yourself the most opportunity for the future. I don't plan on being in this country by the time 2020 rolls around.

[dave b.]

Amen, brother.

[kate]

Where do you plan on going? I'd like some recommendations.

[Bingo]

Generally the libertarian expatriation hot spots are -

Southeast Asia
Central and Eastern Europe
Australia and New Zealand

But really you can go anywhere as long as you can make a living independently.

[Chris Mallory]

Australia? Not likely. They are even ahead of the US in racing toward a European inspired open air prison.

[Jeff]

I'm interested in leaving the US also (not because of this btw). What do you think about Chile? I spent a semester there last spring, and loved it. Fairly cheap, hot girls, and smallish government

[tkwelge]

We can't leave the country now, gentlemen and ladies. We need to find our strength now. This is not the time to lay down and die, but to fight back. Not with violence, but with logic and freedom on our side, and an iron will to resist these onslaughts.

[seguin]

This is my state and my country. They can get the hell out of here, I'm staying.

But I hear Chile's nice.

[Paul]

Fuck republicans. Fuck them with highly polished brass knobs on.

The only serious opposition to this bill they could muster is an abortion complaint. No serious complaint about the government involvement in healthcare, but some decade old whine about about abortion. That's it.

That Chick from OH:

! Invest in airline miles so you can fly to Mexico for your healthcare coverage and avoid the waiting lists that we're staring down in the next 20 years.

[Ring]

>The only serious opposition to this bill they could muster is an abortion complaint.

Errr, there seems to have been plenty of words spent opposing this by Republicans.

Of course, if Republicans had been elected, this bill wouldn't even be an issue, but hey, since you guys wanted to stick it to Republicans.

If only you had listened to how the Republicans defined Left as much as you listened to the Left defining the Right.

[robc]

I didnt vote for anyone left wing. Dont blame me (or us) for this mess.

[Drax the Destroyer]

Ok...Quit deluding yourself into thinking that Libertarians got Obama elected. Most Libertarian types probably did not even vote for Obama or McCain and in the states where they did, their overall numbers could not have overcame the gigantic Anti-bush populist feeling swinging the country (and their electoral college votes) left. Seriously, Libertarians are like 5% of the voting block on a good day regardless of how optimistic we would like to be. Non-voters vastly overwhelm our paltry little holdout. If you want to pissed at anybody, be pissed at Joe Blow for taking meth all day in backwoods VA instead of voting in 2008. The last election was nowhere near as close as you think it was. Now 2000 on the other hand...

[Vengeful Voter]

Up yours, you treasonous pro-genocide loserdopian. I'm starting to think you're another leftard plant.

Might I remind you that Stupak is a DEMOCRAT flunky? And you're blaming the Republicans? Damn you to Hell, you treasonous bastard!

[Bingo]

The Republican opposition was not based on this being an entitlement we can't afford. The biggest thing the GOP was harping on were the Gov't funded abortions. And that was pretty much it. The GOP is ideologically bankrupt and is unable to articulate an argument against crap like this based on the principles of liberty and keeping the government out of people's lives.

[Vengeful Voter]

Up yours too, loserdopian hypocrite. May you be torn limb from limb just like all your victims have by the pro-genocide mass-murderers you support. I watched a fiscally responsible Republican in my area lose her seat to a spendthrift Democrat bitch because of this bullshit you're spewing, so I don't buy your excuse for attacking Republicans over a DEMOCRAT bill for one moment. Die and burn in Hell with your idols Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul and all the other fiscal pretenders, you treasonous bastard.

[Bingo]

So are you saying that it's okay to enact as many government programs as you want as long as you are fiscally responsible about it? Is this the GOP's line as well?

[Shyne]

What district?

[The Libertarian Guy]

What a pompous prick you are, VV. Or whoever you really are.

[SIV]

Clearly you weren't following the news.
Remember "death panels"and government taking over 1/6 of the economy?

If the free abortions had been removed this thing wouldn't pass.

[OMG]

I'm not a Republican and aren't particularly fond of them but your statement is just wrong. The person leading the charge against Obamacare on the Republican side has clearly been Ryan. His arguments have almost completely been cast in terms of affordability, the proper role of government and individual liberty. I only heard him comment once on abortion and that was in response to a question regarding Stupak (a Democrat).

The Republicans screwed things up enough when they were in charge, there is absolutely no need to make shit up

[zoltan]

So the guy who supports a government takeover of the mortgage and car industry opposes a government takeover of health care. Hmph.

[TrickyVic]

""The person leading the charge against Obamacare on the Republican side has clearly been Ryan. His arguments have almost completely been cast in terms of affordability, the proper role of government and individual liberty. """

Considering what what we spend for defense, I don't think the repubicans really see spending 100 million, or 200 million a year problematic.

[Corwin D]

Heh, I had the same idea/dream. That would be good, but the chances are low, but not impossible depending on how much of a backlash this causes predictii fotbal

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Hello ....dimwit, Republicans are the minority and the thing in the house that was holding up the bill was not objections to spending. Hell, Democrats outspent years of Republican expenditures in one year alone! And what is supposed to be so wrong about requiring women to pay for abortions out of pocket instead of with money from the state? Fucking idiot.

[Paul]

Hey I know, about a bill to remove government regulations and involvement in healthcare instead of passing abortions like Medicare prescription drug programs? No? Yeah, let's just keep focussing on dead-end issues like abortion...

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

If abortion is a dead-end issue, why are Democrats so eager to fund it?

[zoltan]

Why are "anti-abortion" people so eager to have health insurance that does fund it?

[TrickyVic]

""Why are "anti-abortion" people so eager to have health insurance that does fund it?""

I'm not sure what you mean when you say eager, but many anti-abortion folk have private insurance that does pay for abortions.

[Hank]

Elective abortions shouldn't be in any insurance plan. Unless an emergency. Physically threatening. I say this not on any moral ground. I say this because insurance is part of the problem of health care costs. It is overused and misused. Nor should a flu shot, invitro, pregnancy, a check-up, acupuncture, alcohol rehab, and so on and so on and so on.

Personally, I am fine with Roe v Wade. More importantly, I think the country will always be divided. It's a conflict of rights. Hence, states' rights. Live in Cali and abort away, or live in Kansas and outlaw it. It'll never be nationally resolved. But, for now, if you fuck irresponsibly, you're dumbass should pay. Word!

Actually, people should be able to by any plan they'd like. You should be able to buy a plan that intentionally covers shoving gerbals up your ass for all I care, as long as I don't have to buy the same plan as some bullshit regulatory feature.

[Hank]

.... be able to BUY - instead of by

[Paul]

If abortion is a dead-end issue, why are Democrats so eager to fund it?

Maybe you didn't get the memo, but Democrats are pushing for a national healthcare bill. Abortions are medical procedures. The map of the relationship practically draws itself.

[Paul]

Or better yet, let's waste years worth of political capital grousing about gay marriage!

[Paul]

Repost of my prediction from previous thread... because I feel so strongly about it:

There won't be any sudden upheaval or dramatic movement of the earth if this passes. That's the problem. No, what will happen will be exactly what happened in Massachussetts. Costs of healthcare and coverage will skyrocket out of control faster than before but unlike Massachussetts, with no one to bail out the Feds, the government will have no choice but to tinker with the legislation more and more aggressively. As this inevitably fails to have an impact on costs- aside from the obvious unintended negative impacts, the discussion will eventually turn to the obvious: this is proof that *any* reliability on the free market to control costs is a failure, and therefore whatever remaining market measures are left in our system will be exorcised- and a single-payer system will be brought in.

By that time, all of our legislative energies will focussed on or around healthcare and its impact to it. We'll even have to start tinkering with social security- arguably as part of the reason for social security's existence is post-retirement healthcare. Undoubtedly, the social security tax system will be jerrymandered and woven into healthcare budget- which by this time will represent a major part of the entire U.S. Government budget. Social security will no longer be "the third rail of politics", healthcare will become the PRIMARY rail of politics, and its juggernaut will be unequaled by anything else in our nations history.

That is when serious healthcare rationing will take place, and hopefully then people will realize the catastrophic mistake we've made with our healthcare system.

Unfortunately, being an entitlement, any attempt to start reversing this disaster will be course, the re-introduction of small market-based reforms. A look at almost all the other single payer systems around the world at this moment in history is a good guide for how this will look. Unfortunately, they'll come too slow and be too little. At that time this so-called 'revolution' might occur when the populace finally gets fed up with being given universal "access" but with no actual healthcare accompanying said "access".

[Marc]

I disagree that single payer is the next logical step -- by the time it would seem logical, it'll be clear that we cannot afford it.

[Paul]

I believe that's wishful thinking. I believe that because any remaining market forces will be fingered as the cause of continuing high costs, we'll be told that we can't afford not to have a single payer system.

[sunny black]

do you still think obama has the cache to do that finger pointing? i don't. i think he's shot his wad of political capital and the next 7 months will be his last wiggle and shake before he's all dried up.

[Paul]

do you still think obama has the cache to do that finger pointing?

I don't see why not. And I'm not suggesting that this is going to happen even during Obama's two terms. This healthcare thing can slowly circle the drain for years while one by one, remaining market provisions (or more accurately, aspects of our healthcare system not explicitly controlled by government) are chipped away.

I mean, look at this government bailout/stimulus. It doesn't matter how glaringly obvious government regulation and tinkering were the cause of this recession, Obama and the Democrats are still on message, claiming that it was the last two unregulated pinholes of the financial markets that were to blame.

It's become very clear that you can have a tiny atoll of free-market anything in a vast sea of government regulation, and if anything goes wrong, that island must be to blame and should be sunk immediately.

[tkwelge]

We have to focus on the youth of this country. We must push back and fight these changes, not blame each other or threaten to move to a new country.

[Vengeful Voter]

I was going to say, "May you lose your job, Paul!" but now I see that's far too kind for what you treasonous leftard scum deserve.

Here's my new hope for what happens to you and all your fellow leftards, liar: may you be classified as "the rich" and soaked accordingly by your master, on whose anus your mouth has been permanently glued.

[Paul]

?! Reading comprehension, Vengeful voter. Try again. I'm trying to fight this thing. You might do the same.

[Vengeful Voter]

No you're not, you lying bastard. Tell your Democrat master who sent you here to attack Republicans that we're going to whip his ass so hard come this November that he won't be able to sit down for the rest of his life.

[Bingo]

Shouldn't you be somewhere pledging allegiance, waving a flag, and fighting a war? The grownups are talking here.

[Ring]

See my point about the Libertarians believing the Left's representation of Republicans.

[Paul]

Hey, someone might be having an abortion somewhere, or one of your GOP fuckwit legislators is in a bathroom somewhere doing something gay! You might wanna leave and go check it out, VV.

[Bingo]

If you take the Rothbardian view, libertarians are leftists.

[Marc]

Yeah, but you're just saying that because I'm thinking wishfully.

[Brian E]

Sure we can. You'll get one year of benefits on ten years of taxes. The remaining nine will be spent waiting in line.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Clear to whom? We can afford the current level of government now and that isn't slowing down the politicians one bit. The left is moving further left and they smell blood. They won't stop until there is no more democracy much less calm, reasoned public debate about anything.

[sunny black]

i see a three year gap for the most optimistic pathway for Obamacare: repeal. crazy? maybe, but who cares?! if people are engaged, and i suspect they are, then maybe there's a snowballs chance in hell we can get a proper anti-virus to delete particular aspects of this clusterf@@ck

[Bingo]

I agree except with the whole "revolution" part. Maybe the UK is our future.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

You're catching on.

[Brian E]

Any bets on how long until the cost of my current individual health insurance plan triples or quadruples?

Also, any bets on how long until the rising cost of individual health insurance becomes the media meme du jour? I'm guessing it won't happen until after next January, when it can be safely blamed on those nasty Republicans.

[Paul]

Use the Massachusetts metric. That's a pretty good starting guide as to what the impact on costs will be.

[zoltan]

Crap. I liked my $55/month health, vision, and dental.

[zoltan]

Er, make that $110 a month, $55/paycheck.

[mr simple]

This bill makes Santa Claus himself want to vomit with rage.

[wackyjack]

It makes Ghandi look like a child pornographer.

[SkepticalTexan]

It makes Ghandi look like a sound economist.

[tkwelge]

He did give enemas to underage girls who slept with him naked. Look it up.

[Bingo]

I'm curious as to how they'll fund this thing. Costs are going to skyrocket out of control even more than they are out of control now. Soak the rich in a few years? Print money?

[Paul]

No, soak everyone and print money.

[Episiarch]

What do they care? They won't be in office any more, and they'll have their super-duper awesome Congressional health plans.

[SIV]

VAT

[Bingo]

VAT in addition to all the other taxes would be like throwing sand into an economic engine thats already out of oil.

[Paul]

The engine won't be running on gas anymore, we'll be chained to oars down in the hull while Nancy Pelosi (or successor) beats a drum.

[wylie]

Saw Pelosi in a clip for tonight's news during a break in the Simpsons.

She had this huge gavel. Now I understand what its for.

[SIV]

VAT will be pitched as "tax reform".
Refunds for poor and middle class,tax cuts for rich, wink..wink..the OTHER GUY will be paying more taxes not you. They won't care as long as it is extremely revenue positive and easily tweakable for more."Fiscally responsible". Initiated in response to a crisis, bi-partisan, signed off on by "all the top economists", and sold as oh so FAIR.

Government needs new and bigger revenue streams or they lose.

[SkepticalTexan]

Cap'n Trade to the rescue!

[SkepticalTexan]

Only big, evil corporations will have to buy carbon allowances.

This creates huge revenue streams and nobody has to pay!

[SIV]

Cap'n trade is already factored in, and may well not happen. A VAT is a fucking golden goose. A whole factory farm full of golden geese in battery cages.

[Colonel_Angus]

Besides the abortion thing, all the republicans could come up with was their own version of bureaucratic games- tax incentives, programs, etc. They talk about markets but then support shit like this.

[Vengeful Voter]

STFU, Democrat infiltrator.

[robc]

McCain might have won if he had opposed TARP. Or the Medicare expansion. Or 1000 other big government expansion programs over the past 30 years.

If the Newt GOP of the mid 90s had reformed health care (in the free market direction) we never would have reached this point.

[Ring]

Ahhh, the wifebeater defence for voting for Obama..."She made me do it!"

[zoltan]

Who said robc voted for Obama?

You seem to have a reading comprehension deficit.

[Ring]

Not at all, but it seems many people are eager to blame Republicans for not getting elected last time, or not opposing this.

The Democrats have the majorities and the presidency, pass a bill, and the minority Republicans are to blame?

Perhaps I'm not the one with the deficit.

[robc]

I voted for the stache.

I have never voted D for president. I voted R once (1988) but he was a fucking liar.

[Drax the Destroyer]

The Democrats are deluded shit-heads who have sold another house of cards to this failing nation. The Republicans set the stage for this shit by doing a horrible job for 8 years. Unfortunately, when we can only choose between different shades of shit (Brown and Green), the only choice is to pick the fun size candy bar everyone else is afraid to touch. To be fair, the candy bar does say things that make you question the validity of your state-supplied enema of an education. Plus it's a talking candy bar.

To ape your own phrase further up the thread, you are the treasonous bastard whose party was willing to compromise by allowing an endless stream of government entitlements and obligations get shoved up the country's ass for dubious reasons. Furthermore, your would be Neo-Con President/ Talking Mormon Leather baseball glove Mitt Romney brought about a similar failure during his time as governor in Massachusetts.

Abortion should not have been in the bill for the same reason that massage therapy should not be in the bill. Both are voluntarily sought for choices generally made by individuals. So, you chose to work that high stress job that puts a knot in your neck? Massage Therapy is your only relief (outside of making your husband do it)? Tough shit, go pay for it. So, you chose to bang 5 different guys in a bathroom stall without a condom? Pregnant? Tough shit, go pay for an abortion (or do it yourself, I really don't fucking care).

[Bingo]

Yeah, agreed with this. Someone up-thread said that "this wouldn't have happened if you had voted Republican" or something along those lines. Um, yes it probably would have. To me, the mandate sounds like an idea that would have been fielded by the GOP.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Bullshit. Republicans would not have passed a bill as obnoxious as this one. And no, they aren't likely to repeal it either because the genie's out of the bottle and our system no longer works that way. But with Republicans in control, we could have bought some time instead of letting the Democrats hit the accelerator.

[Marc]

Are Republicans responsible for the prescription drug thingamabob? "Bullshit" seems extreme, at the least. Frankly, I wouldn't have put it past them, either.

[Marc]

"Are" = "Aren't"

[SIV]

Even Bush opposed SCHIP expansion. Obama signed it as soon as he took office.

[TrickyVic]

But Bush didn't oppose a mandate that everyone over a certain age be required to have a drug plan.

[SIV]

As repeatedly stated here.Republicans are not"the good" as in enemy of the perfect. They are demonstrably a lesser evil though.

[SkepticalTexan]

When was the last time you ever heard an R oppose Medicare? 1964?

This is just more of the same crap that both parties support. Rs wanted a little less, Ds wanted a little more.

The only real difference between Rs and Ds is that there are a few good Rs while all Ds suck.

[zoltan]

Agreed by another skeptical Texan.

[TrickyVic]

The republicans had from 2000 to 2006 to end any entitlement program they desired. Instead, they wanted to fix, not end, social security.

Come November, they will want to fix the incredibly bad legislation the dems will probably pass. Fix, not repeal.

[tkwelge]

As another skeptical texan i say that social security and medicare end tomorrow. I've heard the argument that people are entitled to medicare, because they've been paying into it, for too long. That is a shitty argument and there is not reason that we can't end these programs tomorrow. If the old people resist, we kill them. The republicans have shot themselves in the foot by trying to defend medicare.

[Colonel_Angus]

I have grown completely tired of entitled old people, especially some within my family. Not that they think I personally owe them anything, but I'm talking about healthy people who have barely broken 60 that are talking about retirement already. You know what, fuck 'em.

[Brian E]

Being able to buy insurance from out of state doesn't sound like "games" to me. It sounds like Congress exercising the primary responsibility it's long abrogated in favor of meddling with every detail of my life: the regulation of interstate commerce.

[Colonel_Angus]

That's not what I am thinking about. There were some other ideas that republican politicians were talking about that sounded like watered down versions of the democrats ideas.

Allowing insurance plans to be purchased from any state is something they could have promoted more than they did. They didn't even talk about things like getting rid of medical school caps, or getting rid of insurance coverage mandates.

[Liberty Lover]

There's a scene in the movie Jaws when the 3 main characters are on the boat trading stories. Captain Quint tells how he was in the water for several days after the Japanese sunk his ship that first delivered the a-bomb. After he watched how the sharks devoured several of his mates while in the water waiting to get rescued, he said he'll never wear a life jacket again.

Well, I'll never vote for another Republican again. Conservatives and Republicans had several years to fix health care but they were never interested. It was a Democrat issue. Well, yes it was for 50+ years. Conservatives would rather start wars and glorify the military.

[robc]

Hey GOP shills, in the previous thread I suggested a simple solution. After the GOP retakes control of the house they attach a repeal to EVERY bill. If the senate removes it, readd it in conference committee or let the bill die. Make Obama veto EVERYTHING.

Do any of you really think the GOP has the guts to do it? If no, shut the fuck up. If yes, good for them, but I dont see it happening, although its the only solution.

[John]

I think they actually might. You can always count on politicians doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Once it is in their political interest to do something, they will do it even if it actually happens to be the right thing.

It all comes down to what happens in November. If the Republicans win big and I mean big not some 35 seat normal switch, they will realize that Obamacare is the greatest thing that ever happened to them. And they will torture Democrats with it until even the Democrats want it repealed.

[robc]

They caved in 95. I dont see them going balls out when the Dems are whining about government shutdown every 5 minutes.

[John]

They also got welfar reform and capital gains tax through. Welfare reforem was unthinkable just two years before.

The only thing that will stop Republicans from repealing Obamacare will be the fact that it will be such a wonderful club to beat Democrats with. Like I said, it will be the Demcorats who repeal this thing.

As far as the Republicans go, I am proud of them. Not one of them caved and voted for this piece of shit. As a result, the Democrats now are actually responsible for something. No bi partisan bullshit. I honestly didn't think they had it in them.

[wackyjack]

They caved because public opinion turned against them. This bill has the potential to piss off enough of the electorate that they won't care.

But, November is a long way off. And the Dems have used up all of their political capital and then some. They'll either back off and try to claw their way back, or double down.

[robc]

Fuck public opinion. I expect them to do what is right, period.

[John]

So do the Lefties. And that is what they got their people to do today. I would prefer that they at least pay some attention to public opinion and not ram unpopular shit down the country's throat for its own good. And I mean both sides.

[TrickyVic]

"""Fuck public opinion. I expect them to do what is right, period."""

Right as defined by who?

It's obvious that they think they ARE doing the right thing. Nobody can convince them they are wrong.

[Vengeful Voter]

Speak for yourself, DNC shill. We may just do that, but we won't count on your support because we know you're all gutless hypocrites and that when Dimrats simply vote down all our amendments, you'll be on here attacking Republicans and blaming it all on us again.

Go cry your hypocritical complaints to Lew Rockwell, scumbag.

[robc]

Fuck you. I ALWAYS vote for freedom. When that if the GOP, I vote for them (Im voting for Rand Paul in a few months, I voted for his Dad in 2008). If it was ever the democrats, I would vote for them, it never is though. When neither I vote LP, when that is possible. You are fucking ignorant if you think IM a DNC shill. Clearly you havent been around here much.

If the GOP has behaved responsibly in office, they would still be the majority. Its their fucking fault for letting the Dems back in power. I blame the Dems more for this, they are the ones passing it, but if the GOP supported freedom they wouldnt have got the chance to do it.

[Marc]

Calm down, folks. VV is clearly some kind of performance art. Just enjoy the spectacle.

[John]

Exactly. There is another one on the thread down. They seem to be out in force today.

[Trollstar]

This one is just MNG. The other one has oddly enough, attracted suitors.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Hey idiot, Obama's term doesn't expire until 2012! He has plenty of time to manipulate the courts, game the budget process, and veto Republican bills. Get off your soapbox, open your eyes, and think. You really aren't that intelligent.

[John]

And the Congress can make his life hell. They can supbeona the shit out of him. Investigate him and refuse to fund any of his pet projects. The Congress, if it is united, beat the President every time.

[Biggus Dickus]

In all likelihood they're not going to have the Senate until at least 2013. So they can't block nominations and such.

And I seriously doubt most House members are going to be willing to send no money back to their districts (which is what would happen in the ultra-gridlock situation robc is describing).

[TrickyVic]

""And the Congress can make his life hell. They can supbeona the shit out of him. ""

What, like the dems did to Bush 2007 - 2008? That whole thing didn't live up to their rhetoric. I suspect the same results if the republicans tried it. At some point you just end up looking like a whinny bitch.

[Michael Ejercito]

What, like the dems did to Bush 2007 - 2008? That whole thing didn't live up to their rhetoric. I suspect the same results if the republicans tried it. At some point you just end up looking like a whinny bitch.

And how were the Democrats punished for it?

[Ring]

Heh, I had the same idea/dream. That would be good, but the chances are low, but not impossible depending on how much of a backlash this causes.

However, the fact remains that if the tables were turned, the GOP would not be delivering this crap fest.

I'd rather vote for a Republican than a Democrat if either candidate will keep their election promised.

[Ken Shultz]

"Either way, though, what passes tonight won't be an amended bill; it will be a bill filled with deals and favors that House Democrats have repeatedly criticized as too bad to pass."

I'm sure that matters to somebody for some reason.

[John]

Hopefully, the Republicans in the Senate will stand strong and there will be nine Democrats who don't give a shit and want their bill. That will for Obama to sign this piece of shit and sell out the House. I hate this bill, but God that will be sweet to watch.

[Ken Shultz]

Either way? If this passes?

Why would it matter that they passed something House Democrats criticized as too bad to pass?

Why would that matter to any of us?

Why does that matter to Suderman?

[John]

It would matter to the House Dems because they would "feel betrayed". In reality it wouldn't change anything except one thing. Every Dem House member who lost his seat would blame Obama. If only Obama and the Senate hadn't screwed me we would have all had a merry Christmas.

Further, Obama still has to deal with this Congress. They won't be too interested in doing to much for him after he sells them out. It wouldn't be good.

[Ken Shultz]

I find none of that consoling. I think it was intended to deflect criticism that someone should have seen this coming...and told us repeatedly that this wasn't going to happen.

And I have to say, John, at this point, if after you've seen Obama elected by swing voters, mostly as a repudiation of the Bush Administration, only to force a huge economic burden on the American people, and you still don't get it?

...time to wake up and smell the coffee. There is no way the American people can vote their way out of this or any other problem. And the suggestion that politicians of any party will ever take the tack you're suggesting is just wishful thinking.

The politicians do not care what we think of them. There aren't any politicians who care what we think or what we want--not enough to stop a power grab like this anyway.

Our politicians do not care what we want--all they're afraid of is that we won't think they're the solution to our problems, and anyone who walks away from this with the idea that politicians from the other side are the solution? Then they haven't learned anything from this at all.

There aren't any Democrats who feel betrayed. There aren't any Republicans who will retake power and shoot this legislation down. There are only more politicians who will inflict more of their whims on us--and mark my words--if the American people use this to send Republicans to Congress? The Republicans will just use that mandate to inflict some new fresh hell on us next time, something completely unrelated...

As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.

[Ken Shultz]

Oh, and just as a side note?

There should be some kind of social stigma attached to people who make their living writing about politicians and what they're doing.

It makes them seem important. ...and anybody who cares should be working to make them seem less so. We should be discouraging engagement, not working as its salesmen. ...like merchants in the temple.

Personally, I have more respect for people who work in cigarette advertising--I think they do less harm.

[John]

I totally agree with you about journalists. But if I agreed with you about everything else, I would have to move to a compound up in the mountains somehwere. And I am not quite prepared to do that. So I have to hold out at least some hope things will get better.

[TrickyVic]

Need help packing?

[TrickyVic]

""So I have to hold out at least some hope things will get better.""

What, now your a fan of hope? 😉

[Ken Shultz]

"But if I agreed with you about everything else, I would have to move to a compound up in the mountains somehwere. And I am not quite prepared to do that. So I have to hold out at least some hope things will get better."

I'd like to think there's an inverse relationship between voter participation on the one hand and the number and size of things the government will attempt to undertake on the other.

Apart from that, I see no reason to think voter participation is required to bring about positive change.

...some very big ideas have been implemented without voter participation. Gandhi's resistance against imperialism, Christianity and communism among others.

Yeah, some of the biggest and most effective ideological changes in the history of humanity seem to have taken place without the aid of elections.

In fact, I think it can be argued that elections are more of a hindrance than a help.

[P Brooks]

Soon we shall know what's in this bill; and, once we do, we'll LOOOOOOOOVE it!

[ed]

Welcome to ObamaCare!

Obama is the cheerleader-in-chief of this monstrosity, but it's Congress's legislation. Happily for them, they won't be stuck with "ObamaCare" quite as intimately as the president and his family, whose personal names will be attached to it forever.

[wackyjack]

If approval ratings don't go up after this, what will the new spin be?

For months, the Dems insisted that people were unhappy with process, and still wanted the bill. What now?

[Tom]

Look, don't be surprised if approval ratings (at least Obama's) do go up a bit. We're about to get a dose of Inauguration Week '09 redux -- the media is going to exalt the passage of this thing, and herald it as a historic triumph for Obama, etc. etc.

For the next few days, the nut graf of every story in print and on television will be along the lines of "The president's legislative triumph, a cornerstone of the Obama campaign, will provide health care to 32 million previously uninsured Americans."

The gullible idiots who swept him into office in November 2008 aren't any less gullible or idiotic 17 months later. And we are utterly surrounded by them.

[Mike Laursen]

My liberal friends are calling this historic. But I can't see what's historic about the bill. Just seems to double down on the status quo.

[ed]

Now they're unhappy with both?

[shrike]

Tea Parties started 8 years too late.

Bush foisted a $7 trillion tax increase (according to Milton Friedman), Medicare Part D Welfare for Pharma, NCLB, Iraq oil boondoggle, Patriot Act, etc.

Timing is everything.

[tkwelge]

true. I say we begin the perpetual tea party so we don't make that same mistake again.

[Paul]

Psst, hey republicans: There's a bill affecting the healthcare of millions of registered voters slipping right under your nose while you're bitching about stuff like this.

[Marc]

I knew before I checked the link that it was going to be something about gay marriage.

[zoltan]

This is their bread and butter!

[29InNet]

A 10PM vote on a Sunday night? Kind of gives you an idea what the Democrats really think of this...but they'll be part of history...self-serving bastards.

[wylie]

I don't know about you, but i ALWAYS prefer to do my legislating on sunday night. Better commute.

[Mike Laursen]

I suppose their families are glad they're at work, fucking up the nation, rather than home fucking up the family.

[Mike Laursen]

OK, that was bitter, but, seriously, why aren't these upstanding best and brightest citizens home with their families instead of working on Sunday?

[Lou Womme]

What exactly does this package mean for your average Joe American?? Will it mean REASONABLE monthly premiums? Probably not. I am guessing "Big Med" has all the lawmakers securely in their pockets, bought and paid for!

Lou
http://www.web-invisibility.at.tc

[Mike Laursen]

The best reform idea that was floated for driving reasonable insurance premiums is letting individuals subtract the full cost of high-deductible insurance from their taxes, health savings accounts, and opening up interstate insurance competition. The Democrats wanted no part in such sensible, free market ideas.

[crimethink]

You know who really fucked us? Those fucking liberal heads of Catholic womens' religious orders (colloquially known as "nuns") who gave cover to Stupidak and all the other Catholic traitors. I dealt with enough so-called nuns in my time in the Church, unfortunately often elevated to positions of power relinquished by priests because of the decline in vocations, to know that these aren't your father's nuns. They dress like your ordinary dumpy middle-aged chick, and are little more than clubs for radical feminists who want an excuse for being eternally single, glorified social workers and the prestige of following a "higher calling". And woe to you if you get in their way.

[wylie]

They dress like your ordinary dumpy middle-aged chick, and are little more than clubs for radical feminists who want an excuse for being eternally single, glorified social workers and the prestige of following a "higher calling". And woe to you if you get in their way.

Sounds like historic nuns. The Nuns Habit is just what dumpy middle aged chicks wore back then.

[John]

Yeah. Nuns are often the worst sort of nanny state liberals. They often love socialism a lot more than they love God or life.

[shrike]

For crying out loud man, give your god a name. It sounds like a generic bar of soap like that.

Not "Thor" though.

[John]

There is only one God. Sadly he doesn't owe you or me a name. But, it does allow you to make silly comments.

[Syd Henderson]

He has a name (YHWH). They just can't say it.

[Cartoon History o the Universe]

Yahu-Wahu!

[Tulpa]

Yeah, at least Islam came up with Allah instead of just calling their deity "God".

</sarcasm>

[shrike]

Actually Jesus called god "Allah, or Eleh" in the original Aramaic.

Its been dusted out of the Bible in translation now though.

[Tulpa]

You did see that sarcasm tag, right?

[shrike]

I misunderstood it.

Actually flabberghasted that seconds after a 219-212 defeat GOPers are jumping up yelling about abortion.

GOP = fucking stupid.

Frum is right.

[Mr. FIFY]

GOP+ Democrats = fucking stupid.

There. MUCH better.

[alan]

Frum is never right even on the rare occassion events coordinate in a way that he more or less accurately describes.

[Paul]

My bible's in English, Shrike, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Will I have to provide a sarcasm tag?

[crimethink]

There are a lot of modern nuns who still dress in the habit and wouldn't be caught dead endorsing a bill like this. Think Mother Angelica.

The ones who signed off on the health care bill don't represent all of nunnery.

[P Brooks]

are little more than clubs for radical feminists who want an excuse for being eternally single, glorified social workers and the prestige of following a "higher calling".

Ow, my head!

[shrike]

Paul Ryan on CSPAN now blabbing the "our rights come from god" bullshit.

Apparently, god gave women the right to vote in 1920 and doesn't give foreigners equal rights then.

Conservo-babble is so redundant.

[Ken Shultz]

Yeah, I can see how people who think their rights come from something bigger and more legitimate than the government would be a big problem.

...if you're a Jim Crow law.

[John]

+1

[shrike]

good - lets argue about whose god is plying us with these rights.

I demand mine - he likes free pussy and drugs and lets gays marry.

[.]

Ain't no such thing as free pussy, fool.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Whether you're a believer or not, the point is that governments do not grant rights, they only take them away.

[TrickyVic]

""Whether you're a believer or not, the point is that governments do not grant rights, they only take them away.""

Actually, God grants you freewill, not rights. Government takes your freewill away and to limit that, people create rights. It's like the so called right to life, nothing in the natural world has a right to life, life has the responsiblity to survive.

If rights come from God, why does God let man usurp his rights as man desires? Which allows for the idea that man is more powerful than God, because when man usurps God's rights, God doesn't respond.

[shrike]

Prohibition was a tough one for the Lawd. He changed his mind back though!

[shrike]

Prohibition was a tough one for the Lawd. He changed his mind back though!

[Fist of Etiquette]

If you're debating where God fits in to all of this, you're going to be arguing with someone else. My point is that government does not grant people rights, only benefits. Ryan can use God to make the point if he likes.

And someone else can take up speaking to why bad things happen to good people.

[TrickyVic]

""My point is that government does not grant people rights, only benefits.""

You will probably disagree, but I think you're confusing rights with freewill. I view a right as a declaration to protect an act of freewill. To prevent people, or government, from punishing you for an act of freewill, a right is created.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You're right, I do disagree. Whether you use "freewill" or self-determination, my position is that self-determination exists by default as a right which cannot be granted by government, only infringed upon.

The context of this is that healthcare cannot be a right, because it is something that is provided. I don't believe I have a right to someone else's work. I can understand how the marriage of the (R) next to Ryan's name and the use of God to illustrate this point can be off-putting to many, but if you can look past that and our differences on semantics, I think you will see the point is valid.

[Tulpa]

I'm not a natural law devotee myself, but from what I understand voting is not considered to be a natural right -- it's something granted as part of a particular governmental setup. It's more like water rights than the right to life.

[29InNet]

I know it's tough not to get angry about this, but isn't this just another inevitable step toward the eventual decent of the USA to a Euro-state? We had a nice run, 235 years...

However we got fat, lazy, and stupid and now the large majority of Americans "want" more than they "want to do". Yeah for the next year or so we'll bitch and moan, but then the new season of American Idol will come on and everyone will be excited to see who will replace Simon and, and...healthcare? Oh yeah, that sucks and the government is horrible, but what can you do? What? Obama says I can't eat sugary or salty foods because it drives up HC costs? What an asshole! Man I'm glad the NFL season starts next week...

Rome didn't fall, it just went away...

[Oily Taint]

The official fall of Rome is when they elevated a non-citizen to Emperor.

[shrike]

Now that is funny.

Have you paid your $20,000 court fine yet, Ms. Taint?

[John]

We are not the Roman Empire. And actually for most people the Empire falling wasn't that bad. It was basically a giant theft scheme wereby the people in the cities looted the people in the country side.

[Biggus Dickus]

+ VIII

[Henry the Horse]

Speaking of "laws of unintended consequences," with all the abortions that will now be taxpayer-funded and legal, exactly who is going to be in the future workforce to pay the exorbitant taxes for this monstrosity?

Just saying ...

[shrike]

"all the abortions that will now be taxpayer-funded and legal"

Fox News is rotting your brain.

[TrickyVic]

"""Fox News is rotting your brain.""

Not rotting, programing. That what 24 hour news channels do. Not enough news in the day to keep a channel running for 24 hours. Most of everything else has been an experiment in being an agent of influence.

[Chad]

I bet a lot of hedge fund managers are committing suicide tonight, because having to pay 18% tax rates on the loot they managed to haul in would just be unbearable, right? And I am just sure the rest are going to quit their jobs and blow all the money they have earned in the spirit of John Galt, paying for people to repeatedly dig holes and fill them back in. Yeah. I betcha.

Either that, or we are all going to wake up tomorrow and realize that most of us will be getting the same insurance from the same companies as we did today, and not all that much has changed except that our insurance is slightly less likely to be swiped from us when we need it, and that people stuck in the individual market will have a better go at it.

[shrike]

I knew about the 3.8% dividend tax on unearned income over $250,000 but not an 18% tax on hedge fund managers that evade FICA/income taxes.

Are you serious?

Yeah - and I agree. Short term the most disappointed people will be those with outsized expectations for coverage.

[Gilbert Martin]

What we're going to wake up to is seeing all the lawsuits lining up to challenge the constitutionality of the federal government mandating individuals buy health insurance.

That is most assuredly NOT covered by regulating interstate commerce.

[TrickyVic]

""What we're going to wake up to is seeing all the lawsuits lining up to challenge the constitutionality of the federal government mandating individuals buy health insurance.""

How is it different than mandating a retirement plan?

[Fist of Etiquette]

That is most assuredly NOT covered by regulating interstate commerce.

Your naivety is precious. When was the last time a court ruling stopped government from doing what it wants to do? (Heller barely even slowed them down.)

[The Libertarian Guy]

You're dancing while Rome is burning.

Fuck off, Chad. Take your ill-gotten glee somewhere else, you pompous anti-capitalist pig fucker.

[Hank]

First of all, hedge fund managers are figuring out when they will be massively shorting private health care insurers.

Secondly, what you will be waking up to is a new nightmare of unprecedented congressional legislative tactics. When Republicans use the nuclear option to publically hang any liberal who has an abortion once they take both houses and the white house, this legislative nightmare will come full circle. Hopefully, these majorities will never happen, save repealing this bullshit. This was a legislative mistake.

Demos, Demos, Demos. People grow wary of far away expensive wars, but by the time the first Iraqi Idol is crowned, and Americans don't have the money to power up their flat screens to watch, they are gonna remember this Congress and President a little more than Haliburton and Code Pink.

If I was an employee of a small business owner and had an Obama/Biden sticker on my car, I'd be worried. Maybe become an artist with 'free' health care.

[Two Chinese Bankers]

Kwan: Are you buying it?

Chin: What?

Kwan: That that idiot Chad knows what the fuck he is talking about.

Chin: Uyghur, please. When he swings his e-dick the only thing more limp is your Aunt Li-Li's lo mien steam fried noodles.

Kwan: I know what you really meant by that.

Chin: By what?

Kwan: You know what.

[Mike Laursen]

I don't deny it. Nothing is going to change for anybody tomorrow. If you mean literally tomorrow, or the near future for that matter. What has happened though is that the "reform" bill has just massively reinforced everything about our current screwy health care system rather than reforming anything.

[Michael Ejercito]

Either that, or we are all going to wake up tomorrow and realize that most of us will be getting the same insurance from the same companies as we did today, and not all that much has changed except that our insurance is slightly less likely to be swiped from us when we need it, and that people stuck in the individual market will have a better go at it.

Anmd in the meantime, insurance rates will skyrocket.

Just look at Massachussetts, for fuck's sake.

[tkwelge]

You know how we fight this? Gary Johnson and Paul Ryan in 2012. We pack that son of a bitch with the most fiscally responsible libertarian types that we can muster. Don't accept less than total victory. We push back twice as hard till this old, statist generation breathes its last breath.

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

So start packing.

And if you can think of another country that you might be able to live in, maybe you should pack another suit case for that too. Just don't forget to pay your exit tax.

[CE]

Only in Amerika does a trillion dollars in new spending "reduce" the deficit.

[Draco]

What's clear is we've all just shaved N years off of our life expectancy. I'm just not sure what number N is yet...

This will cause more loss of life (when you sum all of that loss of expectancy) in the long run than any single act of Congress in US history. This is worse than WWII. It's worse than a hundred thousand 9/11s. Adolf Hitler and Osama bin Laden, working together, in the most favorable circumstances, couldn't have done as much damage to America as this does.

[TrickyVic]

Relax Chicken Little, the sky isn't falling. Our coming Chinese overlords will help us live a long time. They need slave labor in the sweatshops.

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

They need young slaves. You can't get shit out of old people.

[Paul]

The final obstacle to passage was cleared a few hours before the vote, when Obama and Democratic leaders reached a compromise with anti-abortion lawmakers whose rebellion had left the outcome in doubt. The president issued an executive order pledging that no federal funds would be used for elective abortion, satisfying Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan and a handful of like-minded lawmakers.

What's that? You're going to fuck with the economy and heathcare on an unprecedented scale? Mmmm, ok, we'll give it a pass as long as the word 'abortion' doesn't appear in the bill!

See, meaningful differences!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

[Ring]

Well, that and he secured $750,000 of fed dollars for 3 airports in his district 2 days ago.

[A Democrat]

Heyooooo! Go fuck yourselves!

[tkwelge]

Enjoy your victory now, while you can.

[Holy Cow]

Paul,

Stupak is a democrat.

Rep.:=Representative.

[Jerry]

I'm going Galt malt.

[Obama]

As I was high fiving Rahm, I realized days like today make being an empty suit so fulfilling. As for tomorrow? Let those fucking Republican governors have to figure that one out.

HAHHAHAHA

[Hildebrand, The Insurance Ward]

Indeed this is regrettable, but I believe that it's what the majority of the country wants: freedom from responsibility and choices. And why shouldn't such slugs be the majority nowadays? We've been giving our rewards for indolence for decades.

And in recent years, we've told ourselves that successful people never have the moral high ground, no matter how hard they work (usually we don't hear that they work hard because they aren't complaining).

[matt m]

Obama Care is going to force alot more people into bankruptcy for those who can't afford it, which will in the end just drive our nation into further economic dismay.

[Rowan]

I heard today that "Archie" from the Archie Griffith show did a PSA warning that if the republicans go after some type of reform to the healthcare reform, then seniors would "loose their free healthcare benefits"!

Does any dumba@@ out there really think that all of this stuff is free?

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[Randy Palmer]

As someone who works in the Michigan health insurance market, I will be curious about the mandate. Where is the money coming from for the consumers to buy?

[Cheap Car Insurance]

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[Ryan]

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[mesothelioma attorney]

The biggest lie of this bill is that it helps the poor. In the long-term, it is the poor who will suffer the most with inevitable extended waiting lists and rationing of health care. Many doctors have already flagged leaving. Even leaving aside the fact that evil organizations like Planned Parenthood are celebrating the US taxpayer funding the killing of children, people will die as a result of this.

Only someone blind to the simple fact of economics ? that you cannot spend more money than you have ? could ever support this bill.

So why should this matter to anybody else in the world? Because America's basic underpinning of free enterprise has driven a great deal of medical research and breakthroughs in the past. That will slow down, there is no other outcome.

There is nothing to celebrate here, this was possibly America's darkest day since its founding. This will negatively affect hundreds of millions of lives and setup an entitlement mentality that ensures future Democrat votes ('we promise you more care!') and further sliding into a poverty cycle. I hope the spirit of the US people will rise to kill the bill one way or another.

[jones]

I am just sure the rest are going to quit their jobs and blow all the money they have earned in the spirit of John Galt, paying for people to repeatedly dig holes and fill them back in.
mesothelioma attorney

[steve johnson]

you are being completely dishonest in your assessment. Bush did bad so Obama doing ten times worse is justified? The Democrats are pursuing a strategy of throwing a thousand lies up against the wall to see if something sticks. Heritage presents data against the one sided diatribe of the Left Wing Media. We would hear nothing if the Demolition Plutocrats continued to control all the news. You should be grateful Heritage provides the other side and the middle view. The liberal bias is already overwhelming. What? You want no unbiased news? Bridal Makeup and valuta

[Walter Hanson]

Comments are subject to approval and moderation but only if it fits the way we want it to fit. We remind everyone that The Heritage Foundation promotes a civil society where ideas and debate flourish unless you provide facts disputing conservative ideals. Please be respectful of each other and the subjects of any criticism but you can call the President a socialist and a radical liberal that is trying to destroy our country, show your birth certificate, etc. While we may not always agree on policy (which we never do because we are right and liberals are wrong), we should all agree that being appropriately informed is everyone's intention visiting this site because this website always offers information backed by fact and not opinion. ahem? Profanity, lewdness, personal attacks, and other forms of incivility will not be tolerated unless of course you are calling the president and democrats evil anti-american socialists. Please keep your thoughts brief and avoid ALL CAPS. While we respect your first amendment rights, but not the rights of same-sex marriage or a true seperation of church and state, we are obligated to our readers to maintain these standards that basically just include being conservative and christian and preferrably anglo-sa?.Thanks for joining the one- sided conversation!.
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