Reason Morning Links: 34K More Troops to Afghanistan, AIG Still in the Red, Suspected Cop Killer Shot

• Obama to send 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan.
• Seattle police say they've killed suspected cop killer Maurice Clemmons.
• Colorado GOP embraces tea party themes for next year's elections.
• AIG comes up short again, faces $11.9 billion shortfall.
• Treasury to send out "financial SWAT teams" to pressure lenders to reorganize distressed mortgages.

Comments

[Episiarch]

From the Seattle PI:

The officer detected movement behind him and exited his car, Pugel said. He then recognized a man approaching him as matching the description of Clemmons.

The officer said the man ignored orders to stop and show his hands, then ran from the officer, who responded by firing several rounds and took the suspect into custody.

Seattle Fire Department personnel responded and the suspect, identified as Clemmons, was pronounced dead at the scene.

Pugel also said Clemmons was found to be in possession of a gun belonging to one of the slain officers. Clemmons did not return fire before he was killed, Pugel said.

Surprise, surprise. Shooting a fleeing suspect. This guy was most likely a seriously crazy murdering motherfucker, but when did the cops get permission to shoot people running from them and not shooting at them?

I blame Obama.

[SugarFree]

He believed that Omaba was the Messiah and was hoping to meet him to prove it.

When will this wave of hate crimes from the left finally stop? How many more people have to die before left wing violence in this country is finally taken seriously?

[John]

Just send the bodies to Chris Mathews.

[Episiarch]

He'd just eat them.

[SugarFree]

Seriously, where's MNG and Chony?

A dumbass loser shoots up a woman's aerobics class and that can be laid directly at the feet of the right. An Obama fan murders four cops, and a resounding silence results? No grand conflation of a disturbed person and their political stance is forthcoming? No vague report of a hoaxed suicide being spun into a vast conspiracy of fascist radical teabaggers? Where's the Homeland Security report on radical left wing movement violence?

Is there suddenly no partisan interpretation of the violent acts of a single disturbed person to be had?

[SugarFree]

Oh, Hai. I double posted for emphasis.

[mutter] Stupid new software. ,/mutter]

[Episiarch]

Well, of course not. Partisanship has its privileges.

If you expect any of the TEAM RED TEAM BLUE dipshits to come clean, ever, you're crazy.

[John]

"If you expect any of the TEAM RED TEAM BLUE dipshits to come clean, ever, you're crazy."

Leave the Red team out of it. No one is claiming that this guy is representative of Obama supporters. But rest assured if he had been listening to Rush Limbaugh, the fucking left would be telling us all about how anyone who doesn't agree with them is dangerous.

This shit only goes one way.

[Episiarch]

O Rly, John? Let's see if you're correct. I'm curious (not really) as to what will come out of the mouths of O'Reilly, Beck, and others over the next few days.

[John]

Go for it. If you find it, link to it and I will admit that I am wrong. But I haven't heard anything like that. And unless and until you hear something and have a link, leave the Red team out of it.

Further, even if Beck did say something like that, he is one guy. If this guy had been some anti-government nut, it would be the entire main stream media screaming.

[MNG]

This is the first I've heard of him being an Obama fan. Was he an Obama fan as in as a black man he was big on having a black President, or he is some longtime Democratic/leftist activist?

[Ska]

No, he's been quoted in articles as calling Obama the black Messiah - not shitting you.

[MNG]

I just read that he said that Obama was going to visit HIM and confirm that HE was the Black Messiah. That's a little different.

[SugarFree]

Seriously, where's MNG and Chony?

A dumbass loser shoots up a woman's aerobics class and that can be laid directly at the feet of the right. An Obama fan murders four cops, and a resounding silence results? No grand conflation of a disturbed person and their political stance is forthcoming? No vague report of a hoaxed suicide being spun into a vast conspiracy of fascist radical teabaggers? Where's the Homeland Security report on radical left wing movement violence?

Is there suddenly no partisan interpretation of the violent acts of a single disturbed person to be had?

[MNG]

This is the first I've heard of him being an Obama fan. Was he an Obama fan as in as a black man he was big on having a black President, or he is some longtime Democratic/leftist activist?

[John]

No. He was a nutcase who told his family he was going to go see Obama so that he could see the messiah in the flesh.

To be fair though, if thinking Obama is the messiah were a crime, we would have to lock up a good portion of the major media.

[MNG]

"reported that Clemmons had been saying he could fly and that he expected President Obama to visit to "confirm that he is Messiah in the flesh.""

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ght29.html

[MNG]

Expecting the President to visit you and confirm that you are the Messiah is not exactly proof of favoring the President...

[Enyap]

It still a fuck of alot more proof then you had for the aerobics class shooter.

[MNG]

The aerobics class shooter made directly disparaging remarks about Obama and his election in his online diaries. Do you dispute this?

[Enyap]

Tell me MNG, why the fuck would a politically motivated shooter pick a woman's aerobics class of all fucking places? Is it really that hard to admit you were wrong?

[SugarFree]

That quote could go I either way, really.

But I'd like to see lunatics not committing political crimes being wedded to any political party. Which was my only point.

One that Ray Butlers/Edward/Lefiti/Morris was way too dense to figure out. Not surprised, of course.

[MNG]

In light of the many other quotes in the article where the suspect referred to himself as Jesus and the Messiah it's hard to take it either way SF.

[SugarFree]

OK. Yesterday they were only running that one quote.

But isn't he still considering Obama to be the modern day John The Baptist? Still a holy man driven in purpose by God himself?

Or maybe he was just fucking nuts, like the aerobics asshole.

[Tulpa]

I have no problem with the police shooting a suspected murderer who attempts to flee. (The real question is whether the officer is being truthful about the fact that he fled.)

I suppose you don't think prison guards should be allowed to shoot a prisoner who's attempting to escape, either?

[Episiarch]

What if the cop mistook you for a suspected murderer and you panicked and ran? Is it ok for him to shoot you in the back? What if he mistook some street person for the suspect, and that person panicked? Is it ok to shoot them in the back?

[SugarFree]

The police are our protectors, Epi. Just do what they tell you and everything will be perfect.

[CaptainSmartass]

Assuming the officer properly identified himself, then yes, shooting a fleeing murder suspect is rational and proper. It's not ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world. And not to defend all cops, but come one, who runs from the police in the first place?

[Just Saying...]

Harrison Ford

[sage]

In Seattle, if you don't run from the cops you will beaten/tazed/shot. If you do run, you will be beaten/tazed/shot. At least with the latter option you get a little exercize.

[JB]

Tulpa is murdering rational thought. Shoot him! Shoot him!

[Ray uh Butlers]

Let's never overlook and opportunity to blame Obama.

[SugarFree]

You have the IQ of lukewarm prune pudding. Say some funny or something relevant. Otherwise, go fuck yourself to death.

[JW]

You say it as if something is wrong with that idea.

[Episiarch]

C-, Ray. At this rate you're not going to pass troll class.

[SugarFree]

C-? You are the pushover professor.

Hey everybody, sign up for Epi's class.

[Episiarch]

Just think of me as Indiana Jones teaching his class at the beginning of Raiders.

[SugarFree]

It was amazing how Warty managed to write I LOVE YOU on his eyelids without any help at all.

[Episiarch]

He said you wrote it for him. Or was it to him?

[Michael Ejercito]

This guy was most likely a seriously crazy murdering motherfucker, but when did the cops get permission to shoot people running from them and not shooting at them?

He should have surrendered, as thousands of people in prison have done.

[J sub D]

Epi,

Assuming the narrative we've been given is substantially accurate, the sociopath had already demonstrated that he was a danger to society every minute he was on the street.

Armed murderers running away, like fleeing soldiers, get shot in the back.

[Paul]

I'm going to give deference to the cop on this one, Epi.

[Rich]

"Sex Workers' Alliance of Toronto"?!

Oh, "Sell What's Available Today"!

[SugarFree]

reorganize distressed mortgages

What's the total value of underwater mortgages not already foreclosed upon? I'm just curious how much the inevitable bailout of stupid homeowners is going to cost us beleaguered rational people.

[Rich]

How about we pull out of Afghanistan and don't enact Obamacare and use the savings to pay off *every* mortgage in the country?

BWAHAHAHA!!

/ twisted fantasy

[JB]

Fuck these people and fuck their houses.

As a renter, people who bought houses at over-inflated prices can fuck off and die.

[Byron]

As a responsible mortgage repayer, I agree completely!
(although I would also give them the option to simply live by the contract they signed before they FOAD)

"AIG Still in the Red"

Proving they are not racist.

[Xeones]

Obama to send 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan.

HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE HOPE CHAAAAAAAAAAAANGE

[Barack Obama]

Fuck Snoopy's ass.

http://blogs.mcall.com/capitol.....1/the.html

[Emily & Jacob]

Please, President Obama, at least do a split screen!

[Barack Obama]

On the other hand:

Pelosi spends $2,993 on flowers...

http://www.politico.com/news/s.....30013.html

D.C. Buys $900 Worth of Massages for Employees...

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1826715

[Adam]

That ain't nothin' compared to Boehner's $83K in greens fees.

[Isaac Bartram]

That's from his PAC, Adam, not public money.

And for equal opportunity defense of scumbags, I must confess i can't see anything extraordinarily improper about three large for flowers for the Speaker's office. She does have am image to promote and maintain.

Godammit, now I have to go shower again.

[prolefeed]

I also would have no problem with the Speaker paying 3 large out of her own pocket for flowers for her office.

It's the part where she bills (bilks?) us for the tab that I don't agree with.

[Isaac Bartram]

The point is she's spending this money out of an allowance she gets for maintaining her office.

Every other congresscritter spent the money they got, jusy on different things.

Except that is for the guys who kept their costs low turned money back over to the treasury. They deserve some attaboys.

[Isaac Bartram]

Dammit, now I need to shower again.

[BakedPenguin]

...when did the cops get permission to shoot people running from them and not shooting at them?

Since the courts stopped ever holding them accountable for it? And really, who, besides a few libertarians and some liberals, might question this? The refrain will be "Cop killer got what he deserved".

That might even be true, but a trial would have been nice to have first.

[Episiarch]

Sadly this will be true. There wasn't a hint of skepticism in that PI article regarding...shooting a suspect in the back as he ran. None.

[Pro Libertate]

"Shoot to Thrill"

All you women who want a man of the street
But you don't know which way you wanna turn
Just keep a coming and put your hand out to me
'Cause I'm the one who's gonna make you burn

I'm gonna take you down - down, down, down
So don't you fool around
I'm gonna pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
Too many women with too many pills
Shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will

Yeah

I'm like evil, I get under your skin
Just like a bomb that's ready to blow
'Cause I'm illegal, I got everything
That all you women might need to know

I'm gonna take you down - yeah, down, down, down
So don't you fool around
I'm gonna pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
Too many women with too many pills
Shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will
'Cause I shoot to thrill, and I'm ready to kill
I can't get enough, I can't get the thrill
I shoot to thrill, play to kill
Yeah, pull the trigger

Pull it, pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

Oh

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
Too many women, with too many pills
I said, shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will
'Cause I shoot to thrill, and I'm ready to kill
And I can't get enough, and I can't get my thrill
'Cause I shoot to thrill, play it again

Yeah

Shoot you down

Yeah
I'm gonna get you to the bottom and shoot you
I'm gonna shoot you
Oh hoo yeah yeah yeah

I'm gonna shoot you down yeah yeah
I'm gonna get you down
Yeah yeah yeah yeah
Shoot you, shoot you, shoot you, shoot you down
Shoot you, shoot you, shoot you down

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ooooooh

I'm gonna shoot to thrill
Play to kill
Shoot to thrill

yeah, ooh yeah

[Byron]

From the facts described, this was premeditated murder. Only thing I hate more than government overlords is murderous government overlords. Bill of Rights? What Bill of Rights?!?!

[Nick]

I hear ya, Epi. This is one of those instances where every black guy within 100 miles of Seattle needed to stay inside until the cops got their man. Real investigative police work was not expected to be done in this case.

[Episiarch]

This is the second time the (Seattle) cops have shot a suspected cop killer the instant they found him within just a few weeks. There isn't even a pretense regarding actually apprehending them any more.

[Barack Obama]

Let that be a lesson for future cop killers.

[Rich]

And for future "persons of interest".

[T]

So, is the lesson to immediately start shooting when the cops get close? My takeaway is that once you kill a cop in Seattle, keep on going until you get them all. They're going to do their level best to kill you, so take as many with you as you can.

Or is that not the intended lesson?

[prolefeed]

Perhaps the intended lesson should be to get way the hell out of town, to another state, preferably on the East Coast, if you are accused of killing a Seattle cop.

I mean, how smart is it to stick around knowing what has happened to other people accused of killing a cop?

[Pro Libertate]

"Shoot to Thrill" (meant to reply to this comment--oops)

All you women who want a man of the street
But you don't know which way you wanna turn
Just keep a coming and put your hand out to me
'Cause I'm the one who's gonna make you burn

I'm gonna take you down - down, down, down
So don't you fool around
I'm gonna pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
Too many women with too many pills
Shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will

Yeah

I'm like evil, I get under your skin
Just like a bomb that's ready to blow
'Cause I'm illegal, I got everything
That all you women might need to know

I'm gonna take you down - yeah, down, down, down
So don't you fool around
I'm gonna pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
Too many women with too many pills
Shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will
'Cause I shoot to thrill, and I'm ready to kill
I can't get enough, I can't get the thrill
I shoot to thrill, play to kill
Yeah, pull the trigger

Pull it, pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

Oh

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
Too many women, with too many pills
I said, shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will
'Cause I shoot to thrill, and I'm ready to kill
And I can't get enough, and I can't get my thrill
'Cause I shoot to thrill, play it again

Yeah

Shoot you down

Yeah
I'm gonna get you to the bottom and shoot you
I'm gonna shoot you
Oh hoo yeah yeah yeah

I'm gonna shoot you down yeah yeah
I'm gonna get you down
Yeah yeah yeah yeah
Shoot you, shoot you, shoot you, shoot you down
Shoot you, shoot you, shoot you down

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ooooooh

I'm gonna shoot to thrill
Play to kill
Shoot to thrill

yeah, ooh yeah

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

Just wait until you see what the financial SWAT teams do!

[Johnny Longtorso]

WSJ - Climategate: Follow the Money
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....05490.html

...Consider the case of Phil Jones, the director of the CRU and the man at the heart of climategate. According to one of the documents hacked from his center, between 2000 and 2006 Mr. Jones was the recipient (or co-recipient) of some $19 million worth of research grants, a sixfold increase over what he'd been awarded in the 1990s.

Why did the money pour in so quickly? Because the climate alarm kept ringing so loudly: The louder the alarm, the greater the sums. And who better to ring it than people like Mr. Jones, one of its likeliest beneficiaries?

Thus, the European Commission's most recent appropriation for climate research comes to nearly $3 billion, and that's not counting funds from the EU's member governments. In the U.S., the House intends to spend $1.3 billion on NASA's climate efforts, $400 million on NOAA's, and another $300 million for the National Science Foundation. The states also have a piece of the action, with California?apparently not feeling bankrupt enough?devoting $600 million to their own climate initiative. In Australia, alarmists have their own Department of Climate Change at their funding disposal.

And all this is only a fraction of the $94 billion that HSBC Bank estimates has been spent globally this year on what it calls "green stimulus"?largely ethanol and other alternative energy schemes?of the kind from which Al Gore and his partners at Kleiner Perkins hope to profit handsomely....

[Ska]

with California?apparently not feeling bankrupt enough

Is the WSJ taking snark tips from reason?

[JB]

I really hate these fuckers.

Wouldn't mind teaching them some actual science: this is what physics looks like as a hammer smashes in their faces.

[MNG]

Do you actually live in a fantasy world where there is no ready source of money for credible research counter to AGW? Did you see Exxon's profits last year? And that's one company among hundreds that would love to see AGW die in the scientific community.

[Pro Libertate]

Because they want to die?

[MNG]

?

[Pro Libertate]

If Exxon believed that AGW was real--and I mean the apocalyptic variety, not the it-may-not-matter-that-much kind--then wouldn't it be totally insane to fight the science, given that the vast majority of Exxon executives, board members, employees, and shareholders live on Earth?

It seems to me that the oil and coal industries are not that concerned about the AGW debate, because there's no sign of us moving away from oil and coal.

[The Gobbler]

Not true. Xcel Energy converted two large coal plants to natural gas this year. Other companies are doing the samr.

[Pro Libertate]

So sorry. Let me rephrase: Oil, natural gas, and coal aren't going anywhere.

[MNG]

I don't anyone thinks it is going to kill everyone on earth. It will cause a lot of damage to coastal cities and make for some hardships.

Of course, many CEO's can be quite shortsighted when it comes to short term profits, as our current financial mess diplays, eh?

[MNG]

I've even seen this Pro, where someone, for short term profits, will put themselves in a position where they end up disgraced, poor and in jail. All to protect immediate profits. Crazy huh?

Ever heard of such a wacky thing Pro?

[Pro Libertate]

MNG,

Your conspiracy of craziness would have to be pretty huge for that to be true. It's not like anyone is going to flip a switch and put the oil companies out of business.

[John]

MNG,

You assume that Exxon makes more money by drilling for new oil. Exxon owns a lot of existing reserves. If new reserve development is restricted out of concern for AGW, what do you think happens to the value of the existing reserves and thus Exxon's assets? AGW is a wonderful way for big oil to squash upstart competitors.

You also assume that Exxon and other big energy companies are not smart enough to get in on the "alternative energy" boondogle. Exxon didn't become such a huge company by conentraiting on one area of business or not knowing how to feed at the government trough. Exxon will be just fine regardless of what the truth of AGW is. They have no interest one way or another.

[SugarFree]

I don't anyone thinks it is going to kill everyone on earth.

Have you met Chad or Tony?

[sage]

Have you met Chad or Tony?

You misspelled "and."

[Groovus Maximus]

Tony lives in the same state I do; no desire to meet him.

Chad, OTOH, came to mind when I watched the episode of Robot Chicken where the Smurfs and the Snorks had brutal warfare with Brainy Smurf being a fatal casualty of war.

To quote, "So the brain really does live on for a minute after all!"

(I frequently refer to Chad as Brainy Smurf)

[prolefeed]

"Will" cause a lot of damage?

You seem mighty certain, considering that it hasn't actually caused said damage.

[Johnny Longtorso]

Did you not even read the article that says where the money is actually going?

Compare that to the resources available to the govt before you complain about how much $$ your adversaries have available and you plead poverty.

[Jordan]

What fantasy world do you live in where Exxon Mobil can even come close to the U.S. govt. and the EU in terms of funding?

[Michael Ejercito]

Did you see Exxon's profits last year? And that's one company among hundreds that would love to see AGW die in the scientific community.

How are Exxon's profits any more relevant on the issue than Wal-Mart or McDonald's?

[Slut Bunwalla]

Profits are evil, remember?

[JW]

Michael Mann has a "Hey! Look over there!" letter to the editor in today's WaPo.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....03885.html

[John]

http://biggovernment.com/2009/.....d-by-whom/

Big government has the SEIU playbook for dealing with protestors. Very interesting. Too bad we don't have newspapers and journalists anymore. It would have made a really good expose back in the day.

[CoyoteBlue]

Treasury to send out "financial SWAT teams" to pressure lenders to reorganize distressed mortgages.

So they'll shoot bankers' dogs? How exactly will these financial SWAT teams pressure lenders? Stun grenades into the office then yelling and waving around automatic weapons?

Pressed to detail those consequences, Barr refused, instead repeating that the Treasury wants servicers to step up their efforts and borrowers to do a better job of providing documents to servicers.

[Ska]

I'm picturing 8 bankers with MP5s following a dude with a riot shield.

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

I'm picturing Michael Palin, Terry Jones and Terry Gilliam lunging through the bank's doors and screaming, "NO-O-O-O-BODY EXPECTS THE FINANCIAL SWAT TEAM!!!"

[P Brooks]

when did the cops get permission to shoot people running from them and not shooting at them?

"Failure to Submit" is a capital offense; summary judgement at the scene is encouraged.

I suspect we'll be seeing more of this.

[P Brooks]

Just send the bodies to Chris Mathews.

I don't know why, but I turned on Cryin' Chris's show yesterday. He was practically sobbing with melodramatic outrage over GateCrasherGate. "There were KNIVES on the tables; these people could have been NINJAS; OMFG I LOVE OBAMA!!!!"

I laughed pretty hard.

[John]

I am starting to think that whole deal is a put up job. This should have been a one day story. Yet, they are beating it in the ground. I think the idea was to give the media a story to distract the public from the economy and everything else.

[Tulpa]

Indeed. That this idiotic story is getting multiple AP headlines every day, while nary a mention of Climategate has reached the front page, speaks volumes.

[The Gobbler]

I wondered that as well.

[Groovus Maximus]

John, you are absolutely right. The average peon is more concerned with Tiger Woods' personal life, these two pathetic fame seekers and general non-news as opposed to say, Iran's "we just want more nuclear energy...honest", the healthcare "debate" and impending vote in the senate, and the climate change suspension of disbelief.

Quite frankly, the MSM is COUNTING on the apathy of your average peon, John.

[Nick]

Was it equal to his outrage over the LEGAL arms bearers in NH? Think maybe he was just jealous these wannabes got so close to Obama while he was at home having his dog lick peanut butter of his taint?

(His dog is probably named "BO.")

[SugarFree]

They are claiming now that a White House press liaison told them they were invited.

[Enjoy Every Sandwich]

Yeah, that was killing me too; he wasted fully half of his show caterwauling about how they got close enough to touch His Royal Highness.

I swear, I wish I could have been a guest. I would have loved to just lean back in my chair and say, "Ah, so what? What's the big hairy deal?" Bllllrrrrrppppp! "Damn, Chris, did you just shit your pants?"

[TP]

when did the cops get permission to shoot people running from them and not shooting at them?

Sorry, but I have to disagree on two points.

First, this guy was not your average run-of-the-mill suspect. In the eyes of law enforcement, he was a cop killer, and a cop killer is a far more dangerous threat to the general public.

Second, this guy, and the family and friends that helped him, knew he was being sought by the police and why. He should have been convinced by these "family and friends", to call a lawyer and arrange for a public surrender.

[Episiarch]

"This guy" could have been someone else that the cop mistook for the suspect (who is also only a suspect). If the cop shot the wrong person just because they ran, would you be cool with that?

[prolefeed]

No, of course not.

[Family and Friends]

He was a great guy. Wouldn't hurt nobody. No way he did what they are saying.

[TP]

So, why not live to tell about it? They had believe there was at least a chance that he was going to wind up dead.

[robc]

a cop killer is a far more dangerous threat to the general public

Actually, the general public doesnt have anything to worry about from a cop killer, as long as he sticks to his chosen field.

[TP]

Epi,

Could have been, but wasn't. I think in this case the cop knew exactly who he was. Besides, I think it's safe to say that most people in the area knew about the manhunt for this guy and would have thrown their hands up in the air immediately. I'll admit though, it's a tough call, but given these circumstances, I don't think the cop had much choice.

[Episiarch]

You use the words "I think", "safe to say", and "it's a tough call". That's a whole lotta speculation going on there.

[TP]

Fair enough. It's difficult to know exactly what was going through the cop's mind at the time. Had it been me,I'd have emptied the clip in the bastard.

[Episiarch]

So you're down with summarily executing someone without trial. Good to know.

[TP]

In this circumstance, yes. If it was some kid that was suspected of selling dope on the corner, no.

[Episiarch]

And what if it turns out that this isn't the killer? I realize that he almost assuredly is, but let's play this out. Let's say that he was a nutcase who talked about doing this but wasn't the guy. You still cool with it? You still think cops should have the power to decide who lives and who dies?

[TP]

He was armed and dangerous, a major suspect in the cold blooded killing of four cops, with a jacket a mile long. If I had let him get away, and he went on to kill someone else, I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

[TP]

So long as the cop is willing to take responsibility for his actions and he is held accountable. I guess that's the key. Many times cops are not held accountable for their actions, and the "blue shield" and the unions sweep it under the rug.

[CaptainSmartass]

But there's no speculation on your part about what might have happened if the cop had confronted the wrong person?

[TP]

Let's see. Desk duty for a month?

I would hope, at least, manslaughter charges. At least, that's what the cop should have had in the back of his mind when he pulled the trigger, and not, delusions of grandeur.

[Adam]

And happy world AIDS day to you. Needle exchange saves lives, religious zealots kill.

[crimethink]

I think you mean, promiscuity and anal sex kills.

[SugarFree]

Behold, the measure of Christian mercy.

[Ray uh Butlers]

indeed

[SugarFree]

Even when you agree with me, you're still a troll.

[The Gobbler]

I'm inclined to agree with you, crimethink. No religeous zealot is forcing anyone to shoot up with a dirty needle or ass-fuck anonymous queers rawdog.

[SugarFree]

Let them buy clean needles, then. No one goes "Awesome, a dirty needle!" And I'm pretty sure Adam's religious zealots reference is to the Catholic Church's no-condoms stance, even in Africa where AIDS is mostly a heterosexual problem.

[The Gobbler]

As a Libertarian, I believe the responsibility rests on the people who choose to shoot up and fuck recklessly. Is it that difficult to own your own needle and not share it? Really? Not getting AIDS is one of the easiest things a person can do.

It has nothing to do with religion; I haven't set foot in a church in over twenty years.

[BIG AIDS]

I'm comin' to GET ya!

[Ray uh Butlers]

That may very well be, but the church is engaged in coercion and propaganda to take the choices away from people who need the information. They engage in censorship. They get laws passed to make it illegal to distribute free condoms (privately funded) and free needles (privately funded). Don't try to tell me the law and the church have no impact. They do.

In your libertarian Fantasyland, none of this would happen, but shit ain't like that. You can't say it's Libertarian when the law intervenes in free choice.

[The Gobbler]

That may very well be, but the church Federal Government is engaged in coercion and propaganda to take the choices away from people who need the information.

FIFY

[Jordan]

Waah, somebody else used my activist goverment for something I don't agree with! Waaah! You reap what you sow, statist.

[Jordan]

That was directed at Ray, btw.

[Wacksomepedia]

[Citation needed --

http://www.google.com/search?h.....mp;spell=1

Can't find evidence to back this claim for condoms. As for needles, government regulation of medical devices is the #1 hurdle]

[Wacksomepedia]

That was directed at Ray, btw.

[Episiarch]

Chris, do you like gladiator movies?

[Pro Libertate]

Airplane! aside, does Spartacus count as a "gladiator" movie in the sense that Mr. Phelps meant?

[Episiarch]

Yes. A gladiator movie directed by Stanley Kubrick.

[Pro Libertate]

That seems wrong to me. Though there is that Olivier/Curtis scene, which may have had some subtle homoerotic overtones. Not like Top Gun, of course.

[Ska]

Tony Curtis asking about eating oysters may be gay?

I had no idea that Kubrick directed that though. Heh. Good to know.

[Pro Libertate]

My joke about subtlety was apparently too subtle.

I used that line to quasi-insult Episiarch (in a nice way) in an earlier thread. Alas, I was too late to catch those that remember their Spartacus.

Kubrick took over the direction of the movie, if I recall correctly. Which explains some of the more Hollywoodish elements of the film. It has some great moments and has a talented cast--Olivier, Laughton, and Ustinov were particularly good.

[Ska]

Yeah, I kind of realized that after reading the commentary again.

Time to grab more coffee I suppose.

[Spartacus]

What happens in Rome, stays in Rome.

[Andrew S.]

Couldn't agree more. Actually just stole that for my Facebook status.

[John]

I don't owe anyone a dime of my tax dollars to exchange their needles. If you want to donate to a charity to do that, have fun. But keep your hands the fuck away from my money.

[prolefeed]

Agreed. But it's more than that. I remember talking the Hawaii Senate Republican caucus into supporting a law legalizing the sale of clean needles, telling them that it was a vote for free enterprise. The buggers were gonna vote against it at first because of pressure from religious conservatives.

One of the few moments where I actually felt like I was earning my pay there at the capitol.

[Mike M.]

The sad thing is that if any one of the litany of fucking idiots in government from Mike Huckabee to the parole boards to the various Washington judges had done their job in an intelligent manner, this psychotic dirtbag would have been in prison where he belonged all along, and those four cops would still be alive.

For those lefties who can't figure out why some of us don't have faith in government to run health care or do much of anything right, this tragedy is just another example why.

[P Brooks]

Actually, the general public doesnt have anything to worry about from a cop killer, as long as he sticks to his chosen field.

[P Brooks]

Fucking New! Improved! squirrels.

There were other (non-cop) people in that coffe shop who were unharmed.

I'll give him credit for that.

[P Brooks]

This is nice:

"The root failure of the current loan-modification program is that it has been voluntary," said the group's spokeswoman Kathleen Day, advocating a revamp of bankruptcy laws. "It's the only way to focus industry's attention."

We must use government power to coerce private enterprises to act in accordance with the wishes of third party advocates meddlers.

[TP]

WTF ever happened to that good bank/bad bank thing? The government could have avoided most of this bullshit by just buying up the toxic assets and sitting on them. It certainly seemed better than handing over billions in bailouts to the banks and forcing loan modifications and better than suspending mark to market.

[Byron]

Or they could have tried this crazy thing where they stay the hell out of private business and not make the mess altogether worse!

[MNG]

Obama has been a huge dissapointment on Iraq/Afghanistan. He ran talking about ending wars and to date we still have the one he promised to end going on and now he escalates involvement in the other one. Not to mention his dragging his feet on Gitmo and such and the disaster of health care. There is no reason for liberals to defend this man on these things.

[The Gobbler]

CHICKENHAWK!

[Art-P.O.G.]

Actually, I think Iraq is headed in the right direction.
Afghanistan, it's hard to say...

[Pro Libertate]

Why not give Afghanistan to Iraq then?

[Art-P.O.G.]

No one wants Afghanistan, Pro Lib.

[Mike M.]

Umm, the Iraq War is over. We won, there isn't going to be any civil war there (contrary to what liberals believed), and the bulk of American combat troops are going to be out of there by August.

Afghanistan is definitely tougher than Iraq. There is a possibility that the McChrystal strategy will work there just like the Petraeus surge worked in Iraq, but it's not a guarantee.

[Enjoy Every Sandwich]

What did we win?

[T]

Valuable prizes. No, you can't see them. They're too valuable to show to peons like you. You'll get the prizes dirty or give them swine flu or something.

[prolefeed]

What did we win?

A shit sammich. Good luck enjoying that one, Enjoy Every Sandwich.

[John]

He campaigned on the idea that Iraq distracted us from the real war in Afghanistan. He can't very well pull out of Afghanistan now can he?

The truth is that both him and his supporters who said that were lying. They never supported AFghanistan. They just used it as a club to attack Bush. But, now they are stuck supporting a war they never wanted to support.

Tough shit. Words have meaning.

[Mike M.]

As much as I don't care for the guy, I'm going to give Obama the benefit of the doubt here.

While he certainly shares the standard leftist's resistance to using military force, I think in his gut he understands the importance of trying to bring a semblance of order to Afghanistan.

At the very least, he doesn't want to go down as the guy who let the Taliban retake control to make it into a safe haven for Al Qaeda.

He also certainly understands better than anyone that the situation in Pakistan is becoming less stable by the week; he gets those daily intelligence briefings.

[A Different Bill]

I'm wondering about the scumbag's family who helped hide him from the cops and helped him get away. WTF is up with that? They should be charged as accessories. The dude killed four cops, and was already pending trial for child rape and other assaults and crimes. And they help him get away, so he can go on a further violent crime rampage?

At least the whole ordeal concluded properly and inexpensively for the taxpayers (at least less expensively than a big trial and holding him in prison for decades).

[Ray uh Butlers]

link?

[Episiarch]

The family members who helped have been arrested and will be facing charges.

I'm still shaking my head at all the people that have no problem with the cops killing someone who was fucking running away before a trial could determine his guilt.

[SugarFree]

To play devil's advocate...

Maybe the cop decided to go ahead and shoot him because of the litany of failures of the justice system that let him be in the position to kill those four cops.

Still the wrong thing to do, of course. But maybe a functional justice system would lead to less vigilantism on the part of the police.

[disappears in cloud of acrid smoke]

[Episiarch]

Look, speculation just makes a speck out of you and lation.

I will take my meds now.

[The Gobbler]

+1

[alan]

To play devil's advocate...

A while back, I was riding with my bro in the middle of nowhere, he picked up a classic rock station playing 'Sympathy With The Devil', and he blurted,

"I hate that song."

"Yeah?"

"That line, 'I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys, when after all, it was you and me', as if JFK was some kind of leftwing martyr and we're collectively guilty of killing him like he was Christ.'

I said, 'The song is narrated by The Devil and wouldn't you expect Lucifer to say something like that?'

"Well, yeah."

"There you go. Why are you blaming Mick?"

"Well, there is the sentiment there. You know there are idiots who think that is some kind of insight. I wonder what Chris Mathews thinks when he hears that?"

Me: "I don't waste time worrying about what stupid people think."

[JW]

New professionalism, Epi. He was highly trained identifying suspects with 100% accuracy, determining their undeniable guilt within seconds and in dispatching fleeing said suspects with great prejudice.

[*]

Maybe the cop was "in fear for his life."

[PicassoIII]

I could quote some Mencken?

Uh, another open question.
No attempt to 'shoot to incapacitate', aim for the legs?

[Isaac Bartram]

There is no such thing as 'shoot to incapacitate'.

Guns are deadly force. When deadly force is called for it's "shoot to kill".

The question Epi has raised is whether deadly force was called for in this case.

AFAIK, most states have so-called fleeing felon laws. Most of them allow the police to shoot a fleeing felon provided he has been positively IDed and that there is a high probability of him causing harm to someone.

I'm not sure if that first condition was satisfied here. Also i don't know what Washington has in in the way of a fleeing felon law.

There may be other restrictions in fleeing felon laws. Maybe some of our legal eabgles can help.

[alan]

I can only defend the cop's actions if there was a gun in hand with which getting distance from the cop meant he could turn around and gain a better drop. That is speculation, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that was the case.

The area was already virtually under a lock down. At best, running at top speed, the perp gains four hundred yards and then hits a wall of exhaustion. Very little chance of escape.

I'm not going to assume the cop to be wrong, or acted in any way that I would not have if I were in his shoes, but there better be a better explanation for this than what has appeared so far in the press. This is too high profile of a case to fuck up. The killer may be dead but it is still going to play out in court.

[Byron]

Add to this that the suspect was supposed to already be gravely injured from an earlier (presumably justifiable) gunshot wound, and he can't really be that hard to subdue/contain/apprehend. The way they describe having 'found' the gun on him makes it reasonably clear the gun was not apparent (let alone an immediate threat) to the officer prior to the execution shooting incident. Cops don't get to shoot people "just in case".

While we're in the speculation business, I imagine the cop to have muttered something to himself along the lines of, "Take that, motherfucker!" as the last shell hit the ground.

[Clich? Bandit]

Here is an example of kops shooting people in the back:
Jim Duensing

But, it ties the room together!

[JW]

Obama to send 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan.

This would never happened if there was a Democrat in the White House.

[SugarFree]

A Different Bill,

I wonder what they could even do to those family members. He was a "person of interest." Is that the same as "harboring a suspect"? I guess that any of them they can prove lied could be charged with obstruction. But that's fairly hard to prove. And since he's dead, they can't convict him of anything to "prove" he was a fugitive.

Any of the law folks what to chime in? I share Bill's curiosity.

[TP]

ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT - Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18

Except as otherwise expressly provided by any Act of Congress, an accessory after the fact shall be imprisoned not more than one-half the maximum term of imprisonment or (notwithstanding section 3571) fined not more than one-half the maximum fine prescribed for the punishment of the principal, or both; or if the principal is punishable by life imprisonment or death, the accessory shall be imprisoned not more than 15 years

Eluding police is a felony in some states.

[SugarFree]

Yes, but how do you prove they knew he had committed the crime when he was just being sought as a person of interest?

Epi shows up at my house. The police announce he's a person of interest. He insists he didn't do it and I give him a coat on his way out into the cold Kentucky night. The police show up and I say I don't know where he is, but I saw him earlier.

It seems like if the police just want to talk to someone, that automatically makes you an accessory after the fact if you interact with them.

What if he's innocent? All charges are dropped? I'm a still an accessory after the fact? What if I had just called him a lawyer?

[prolefeed]

The way this statute is worded means that you can only be an accessory after the fact if you "know" an offense has been committed.

This is not the same as the police alleging an offense has been committed.

It would seem that a defense of "My client didn't believe the police version of events, my client believed he was innocent" would be what a competent defense attorney would argue.

And, since the suspect was never convicted of anything, or even indicted, it seems that, no matter how pissed off the police are, these charges are likely to be dropped.

[P Brooks]

A gladiator movie directed by Stanley Kubrick.

Giant chrome penises!

[SugarFree]

Giant chrome penises!

Wow. So sick of hearing about your dreams, dude.

[P Brooks]

He was armed and dangerous, a major suspect in the cold blooded killing of four cops, with a jacket a mile long.

Spoken like a action-movie character who has already read the last page of the script.

[P Brooks]

Speaking of my dreams...

Straight from the "great lines from lame movies" file:

"I'm gonna get me a bottle of Jack Daniels, and then I'm gonna go find one o' them keno girls who could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch."

[Warty]

I realize I'm late in the thread, but

Obama to send 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan.

PEICE CANADATE

[Michael Ejercito]

We will have peace once all those sand Nazi nithings are dead.

[Warty]

OK, you reprobates: under what circumstances would you turn in a close family member (not one of the ones you hate) to the police? How bad would your family member have to be - murderer? Unabomber? jaywalker? Show your work.

[T]

The wife? Never. She could detonate a nuke in DC and it wouldn't matter.

The rest of the family? Probably never as well. I might encourage them to go turn themselves in and offer to facilitate it, but give them up? Probably not happening. I'm fundamentally tribal in my loyalties. If you're in the tribe, fuck the rest of the world. If you're not, oh well.

[Jordan]

Hell, if my wife detonated a nuke in DC, I'd nominate her for the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Warty]

This was the right answer.

[prolefeed]

It's not my job as a libertarian to make that choice for them. I would strongly advise a family member accused of killing 4 cops in Seattle to either very publicly surrender in the presence of a lawyer who can witness events, or get a LOOOONG way away from Seattle.

[prolefeed]

And if the police show up at my door accusing me or anyone I know of a crime, and asking me to turn them over to the police, I would invoke my Fifth Amendment rights and order them to get off my property.

[R C Dean]

A few details, from the AP story:

A couple dozen police officers milled around at the scene where Clemmons apparently was shot, shaking hands and patting each other on the back later Tuesday morning.

Maurice Clemmons was carrying a handgun he took from one of the dead officers when a Seattle policeman recognized him near a stolen car in a working-class south Seattle neighborhood about 2:45 a.m., Assistant Police Chief Jim Pugel said.

The vehicle was running but unoccupied when the officer pulled up, radioed in the license plate number and realized the car was stolen, Pugel said.

The officer saw something moving, got out of his car, saw Clemmons and ordered him to show his hands and stop.

"He wouldn't stop," Pugel said. "The officer fired several rounds."

Interesting, how the part about him running away has sort of dropped out of the narrative.

[Groovus Maximus]

He HAD to discharge his weapon, there apparently wasn't a dog to shoot instead.

Besides, cop killers outside of prison occupy congruent status as child rapists and ex-gang memebers do in the big house. Essentially, a free pass to have a blind eye turned to whatever method of "retribution of justice" is employed.

It's not like the arresting officer will be investigated with a fine toothed comb, and indeed, he will be feted as a hero, regardless of the circumstance of the accused demise.

[prolefeed]

Sadly this will be true. There wasn't a hint of skepticism in that PI article regarding...shooting a suspect in the back as he ran. None.

It is seriously stupid to be an alleged cop killer and to run from an armed police officer when they tell you to stop.

Not saying I'm credulous enough to automatically buy the officer's version of events in the absence of witnesses, but people who commit felonies and get caught tend to be less than the cognitive elite.

[brotherben]

I gotta go a few steps farther and say that anyone in the area from Olympia to Seattle that tried to run from the police after the shooting of the cops would qualify as less than cognitive. Nervous cops are not to be farkled with.

[prolefeed]

I'd extend the zone wider -- anyone from Olympia to Everett (well north of Seattle) to Enumclaw (well east of Seattle) would be well advised to not run from the cops.

[Paul]

To the thread: I give deference to the cop on this one. The original report was that he was running counter-clockwise around the car-- by this time the cop had already recognized him as the suspect. Given the circumstances of the crime, and the emerging level of crazy with Clemmons, I'd have probably done the same thing. I would have assumed he was getting into a better position from which to return fire or engage with me.

Believe me, there's plenty of fodder for police abuse, wrong-door SWAT raids and the like, but this one looks pretty clean to me, and a little deference should be offered given the circumstances of the crime.

[Paul]

Over four days in May, Maurice Clemmons' behavior and mental state deteriorated. Family members worried he had gone crazy, that he was verging on collapse. His conduct became so erratic ? punching a sheriff's deputy, forcing relatives to strip naked, according to police reports ? that authorities eventually charged him with eight felonies, including one count of child rape.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ce01m.html