German Company Wants to Generate Both Heat and Light In Your Basement

The German power company Lichtblick wants to install thousands of miniature thermal generating plants in people's basements. Based on a Volkswagen design, these generators would burn natural gas to produce heat and hot water for a home or an apartment building and generate electricity which would be supplied to the national grid. As Businessweek reports:

The centerpiece of the new mini power plant system is a natural gas powered engine used in some Volkswagen Golf models. Thanks to the engine's highly intelligent design—and the fact that the heat it produces can be directly used to heat the house—the efficiency factor of the Volkswagen mini thermal power plant lies at around 94 percent.

That's significant since many modern coal and gas-fired plants produce a lot of waste heat which means that they are generally around 40 percent efficient. And even better, the miniature power plants can be turned on to generate electricity when wind and solar power falters. However, the article goes on to note:

The ambitious new project could be worth billions of euros and generate enough electricity to replace up to two nuclear power stations or even coal-fired power plants in the near future.

Hmmm. If one is worried about man-made global warming, why would you want to replace two non-carbon dioxide emitting nuclear power plants with thousands of little CO2 producers?

In addition, the article says that Lichtblick will be able to sell the electricity produced by the tiny power plants for a "tidy profit." That's fine. But the article doesn't mention whether or not that profit depends on special feed-in tariff rates. In Germany, utilities must buy electricity produced by solar power from homeowners at around 60 cents per kilowatt hour. For comparison, the U.S. average household retail rate is 12 cents per kilowatt hour. 

And oh, did you know that Germany imports about 40 percent of its natural gas from Russia? Still, co-generation is a very neat technical idea. 

Comments

[Xeones]

It's no Mr. Fusion, but if it promotes decentralization i'm for it.

[cangrejos fantasmas]

I'm getting a natural gas genrator for my home. It will serve as a backup if the electricity goes out (my gas waterheater works sans electricity). That they run on natural gas is a big plus. Also they can be kept safely in the basement right next to the gas furnace and waterheater.

I have never had my natural gas go out, but the electricity goes ot at least once or twice per year.

[Episiarch]

I'm still waiting for a generator powered by the leftist outrage at racism directed towards our President. Or Ed Begley Jr's sense of of self-satisfaction.

"I prefer a vehicle that doesn't hurt Mother Earth. It's a go-cart, powered by my own sense of self-satisfaction."

[J sub D]

Hmmm. If one is worried about man-made global warming, why would you want to replace two non-carbon dioxide emitting nuclear power plants with thousands of little CO2 producers?

a) Because one is a stupid fuck?
b) Because one has bought into the nuclear power = bombs/radioactive death zone meme the luddite wing of the environmentalist mevement has been selling since I was a teenager?
c) Because one is totally ignorant of the concept of relative risk?
d) All of the above.

[cangrejos fantasmas]

e) Global warming is a hoax.

[Dagny T.]

Generate Both Heat and Light In Your Basement

Maybe so, but the doorway to a thousand churches and the resolution to all your fruitless searches will never be found in your basement.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Reason, must you acid rain on every parade?

[MattXIV]

I'm calling bullshit on that 94% efficiency figure, which I guess is only true if you want all the waste heat from the plant to warm your house, which might be the case in the winter, but when summertime comes along, you've got to get rid of it unless you want to live in a sauna, which takes energy if passive cooling isn't sufficient, which it probably won't be for a car engine running at above the normal idling rate. I want to know what fraction of the energy produced ends up in a form that can be used to do work.

[Herman Von Bitterkraut]

Ve have vays of making you varm and comfy...

[kinnath]

I have a standby emergency generator that runs on Natural Gas. They're great when the lights go out, but the're certainly not a great source of permenant electricity.

Oh, and you'd have to be bonkers to install one in your house. It would be like running the necessary input/output plumbing to run an motorcycle or automobile in the house.

[Pro Libertate]

Whatever happened with PlugPower? Weren't they going to roll out diversified power plants in the form of fuel cells?

[thew83]

What we need is a way to harness the awesome power of the neutrino.

[Hazel Meade]

As someone with an engineering background, I'm calling bullshit on the plant's claims too.

First of all, there's no way you could get 94% efficiency from any kind of thermal cycle under household conditions, unless they mean percentage of the Carnot efficiency. In which case, you are comparing apples to oranges as far at the 40% figure is concerned.

Secondly, I fail to see how running lots of tiny little gas-fired generators is going to be more efficient than running a few big ones. Everyone knows the diesel generators that are commercial available are more expensive to run than using the electric grid.

There may be small gains from reduced transmissions losses, but I suspect it would be vastly outweighted by the excess cost of manufacturing all those litle engines.

[John Tagliaferro]

I didn't know Drew Carry worked for VW also.

[thew83]

I bet they'd fuck with grid VAR something awful, too.

[matt2]

Oh, and you'd have to be bonkers to install one in your house. It would be like running the necessary input/output plumbing to run an motorcycle or automobile in the house.

Which is to say... an intake pipe and an exhaust pipe?

But seriously, that would really suck in the summer.

[DDP]

I guess I don't know what an "efficiency factor" is, but 94% efficiency is approaching Carnot limits. I doubt it.

[Scooby]

Hazel,
You still get < 40% efficiency for the electrical generation, just like standard thermal plants. The increased efficiency comes from having something to do with the 60+% of the input energy that is waste heat. If you have a use for 100-120deg heat (such as domestic water heating and indoor comfort heating), you can use 80-90% of that waste heat.

Therefore, you are only rejecting as little as 6% of your input energy as waste heat to the environment. That's where the 94% efficiency comes from.

It's not really that much of a stretch, as long as you have a use for a lot of low grade heat.

Scooby, P.E.

[cangrejos fantasmas]

"Oh, and you'd have to be bonkers to install one in your house. It would be like running the necessary input/output plumbing to run an motorcycle or automobile in the house."

Or a gas furnace. I live in the far north. I don't want it omy backup generator utside in -40F temps. That's hard on machinery.

[MS]

As a power engineer, I will add to the chorus of calling out the 94% efficiency claim. Perhaps 94% in the Brayton cycle polytropic eff. But that is not the normal way effieciencies in a power plant are calculated and as said before is comparing apples to oranges. Getting even 55% would probably be beyond the bounds of technology.

[Hazel Meade]

If you have a use for 100-120deg heat (such as domestic water heating and indoor comfort heating), you can use 80-90% of that waste heat.

Okay, I see what your talking about. But in that case, I still agree with the poster above. You aren't going to need all the waste heat all the time, and you're necessarily not going to need it when it's actually available. How would you store the waste heat when you don't need it?

[John Tagliaferro]

How would you store the waste heat when you don't need it?

In a water tank.

[Matt the P.Eng.]

To follow Scooby's line of reasoning,

I can only imagine the 6% lost is heat energy in the exhaust gas that is discharged outside the building. So, if you ran the engine in your house, and discharged the exhaust inside as well, then effectively 100% of the energy from combustion would be recaptured. Also, all the mammals would quickly suffocate, but we're proving a point here.

I remember my HVAC professor telling us about a commercial heat pump powered by a similar natural gas fueled engine. It achieved incredible efficiencies, but the system complexity and cost doomed the product in the marketplace.

[sage]

The German power company Lichtblick

Hee hee. Funny name. I just like saying it. Lichtblick. Lichtblick. Lichtblick, Lichtblick, Lichtblick! Ah...ok, I'm better now.

I still like the idea of the modular nuclear power module capable of powering around 25,000 homes and having no moving parts (except for the boiler assy). That's where the future is, IMO.

[R C Dean]

Well, its gadgetastic.

Now, if we only knew of any countries with kajillions of cubic feet of natural gas reserves, an effective moratorium on new nuke plants, and a looming shortage of electrical capacity, we might be able to put this to use.

[Paul]

How would you store the waste heat when you don't need it?

In a large battery, such as a hot-water tank. But then again, I have no idea how much waste heat they're talking about. Is it possible to use some sort of phase-change mechanism to cool a space with the excess waste heat?

[Paul]

Now, if we only knew of any countries with kajillions of cubic feet of natural gas reserves, an

Oh, petrolium enginners, help a brother out. Don't we get natural gas from oil wells? We better step up the drilling.

[Paul]

*engineers*

Sheesh.

I will use the preview button
I will use the preview button
I will use the preview button

[kinnath]

"Oh, and you'd have to be bonkers to install one in your house. It would be like running the necessary input/output plumbing to run an motorcycle or automobile in the house."

Or a gas furnace. I live in the far north. I don't want it omy backup generator utside in -40F temps. That's hard on machinery.

A natural gas furnace is not equivalent to a natural gas engine and generator.

We set a record for -32 last year. More typical is -10 to -15.

The standby operates just fine during its weekly diagnostics in sub-zero temps.

[John Tagliaferro]

In a large battery, such as a hot-water tank.

Echo from 3:49?

[John Tagliaferro]

IANAPE, but Don't we get natural gas from oil wells? We better step up the drilling.

We already burn off many times more natural gas from existing production than the nations' caloric consumption.

[Paul]

In a large battery, such as a hot-water tank.

Echo from 3:49?

You posted it first, but I was thinking of it first in my mind! 😉

[Brandybuck]

I want a miniature nuclear reactor in my basement.

[John Tagliaferro]

I want a miniature nuclear reactor in my basement.

Quit thinking so small.

[thew83]

I want a miniature nuclear reactor in my basement.

You're not the only one.

[cangrejos fantasmas]

"A natural gas furnace is not equivalent to a natural gas engine and generator."

Natural gas furnace: Natural gas is piped to the unit which burns it, sending exhaust up the chimney. Electric moter runs fan distributing heat all around the house.

Natural gas generator: Natural gas is piped to the unit which burns it, sending exhaust up the chimney. Electric is gernerated and distributed around the house.

True, not equivalent, but similar.

[kinnath]

True, not equivalent, but similar.

Not similar.

Furnace: Fuel input, ignition source, exhaust, no moving parts.

Engine: Lots of moving parts ==> means lots of vibration == means constant risk of air-tight seals becoming not air-tight.

Order of magntitude difference in complexity.

[kinnath]

I suppose if you live in a house that leaks like a sieve, it doesn't matter.

[TallDave]

Thanks to the engine's highly intelligent design-and the fact that the heat it produces can be directly used to heat the house-the efficiency factor of the Volkswagen mini thermal power plant lies at around 94 percent.

Every engineer reading this just fell over laughing.

This might be sort of close to true in the dead of winter, but that's about it.

Also, there's a very good reason most people don't make their own electricity: economies of scale. It doesn't matter how efficient your engine is if the capital/fuel/maintenance costs are too high.

[The Ghost of Frank Zappa]

Put a motor in yourself.

[kinnath]

Also, there's a very good reason most people don't make their own electricity: economies of scale. It doesn't matter how efficient your engine is if the capital/fuel/maintenance costs are too high.

If the power goes out for a couple of hours, I can see the change in my natural gas usage on my next bill -- even in the dead of winter. It is way more expensive to generate locally than buy from the grid.

[kinnath]

I have a decent stand-by. It has an industrial V twin air-cooled engine. It's warranty runs for 1,000 operating hours. It's has an expected life of about 3,000 hours. That won't last a year under continuous operation.

These guys want to put an engine inside a livable space and have it run constantly for years. That's not even wishful thinking, it's lunacy.

[T]

If the power goes out for a couple of hours, I can see the change in my natural gas usage on my next bill -- even in the dead of winter. It is way more expensive to generate locally than buy from the grid.

Yeah. I have my bouts of survivalist live-off-the-grid fantasies. Then I run the numbers and realize I'd have to be way more committed to the idea because I just can't make it economically defensible. A backup generator I can justify based on last year's hurricane season alone, but full time power generation? It's just not feasible for the home with current technologies.

[T]

damn tags.

[kinnath]

Yeah. I have my bouts of survivalist live-off-the-grid fantasies. Then I run the numbers and realize I'd have to be way more committed to the idea because I just can't make it economically defensible. A backup generator I can justify based on last year's hurricane season alone, but full time power generation? It's just not feasible for the home with current technologies.

I've looked at wind and solar (the wind always blows at my semi-rural home -- in fact it frequently blows to hard for most small scale generators) with natural gas or LP as a backup.

It only makes sense as a back up for extended interruptions of the grid.

[T]

It only makes sense as a back up for extended interruptions of the grid.

That's roughly the conclusion I came to as well. Unfortunately, my need for backup generation occurs during hurricane season. Wind and solar are the most likely to suffer damage or otherwise be non-usable during the aftermath. Next year's big home improvement is a natural gas back-up generator.

[kinnath]

That's roughly the conclusion I came to as well. Unfortunately, my need for backup generation occurs during hurricane season. Wind and solar are the most likely to suffer damage or otherwise be non-usable during the aftermath. Next year's big home improvement is a natural gas back-up generator.

When an ice storm can take out a big chunk of the grid for a coule of weeks, it's not clear how well a wind generator will work.

The smaller ones can be laid down on the ground and raise back up after the storm . . .

[T]

The smaller ones can be laid down on the ground and raise back up after the storm . . .

Well, hurricanes do give lots of warning.

Of course, the economics may change if they pass cap and trade and make grid power more expensive...

[Bob Smith]

The laws of thermodynamics say it's impossible for this small generator to be as efficient as a large one.

[Leonardo]

Furnace: Fuel input, ignition source, exhaust, no moving parts.

Furnace: Fuel input, ignition source, exhaust, rotating blower fan driven by motor and fan belt.

http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/performance95.shtml

FIFY

[Christopher]

Honda already has this system for sale in the US.

[german]

The efficiency aspect comes in because a hot water heater/ furnace is already producing the heat. This will merely capture that heat already produced, and turn it into electricity

[Jackson LaRose]

How about, instead of piped in natural gas, using producer gas from gasifiers, or biogas from anaerobic digesters? This would be carbon neutral, completely decentralize the grid, and with free fuel, the economics would certainly shift in favor of small scale generation. Also, the excess heat could be used to keep digesters at optimum temperature, or to heat incoming air/create steam for a gasification chamber, to increase output/efficiency.

[InTheKnow]

Oh, the blithering of the commoner.. One must always take into consideration the hundreds of people required to drive to work or ride a bus to service those nuclear power plants. Always consider those costs in your 'greenie' equations.
Those of you from Europe, please do not attempt this on your own. One must have proper training and instruction to break free from the Socialist mindset to adopt independent thinking strategies for the future.
Regardless of the stated efficiency specifications natural gas powered generators have been a boon to the people of Japan who have an abundance of natural gas on their property.
For the rest of you that don't have gas and electric utilities and consider piping in natural gas to be a hardship, you've really misunderstood the task nor the point of having such a unit. A chimney just like a gas powered hot water tank is used to vent the fumes. Running a gas line from a well or propane tank is little different.

[Dan Foresman]

Well, it is more efficient to transmit the potential energy of gas than the kinetic energy of the electron right?
Any design that does not take advantage of the thermal waste of power generation is bound to be less worthy of a design for providing heat.. Next, maybe we'll discover real insulation!