Foreign Policy

How to Lose Friends…

Why Obama should reaffirm the importance of our relationship with Israel

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The United States does not negotiate with terrorists—but we insist that Israel do so without preconditions.

We will not get entangled in the distasteful internal politics of Iran—but we define Israel's borders.

We will remove missile defense systems in Europe so we do not needlessly provoke our good friends in Russia—but we have no compunction nudging Israel to hand over territory with nothing in return.

This week, President Barack Obama spoke to the United Nations General Assembly and insisted that Israel and the Palestinians negotiate "without preconditions" (well, excluding the effective precondition that Israeli settlements are "illegitimate," according to the administration—so no preconditions means feel free to rocket Israel while you talk).

This tact, Obama hopes, will lead to "two states living side by side in peace and security—a Jewish state of Israel with true security for all Israelis and a viable, independent Palestinian state with contiguous territory that ends the occupation that began in 1967 and realizes the potential of the Palestinian people."

Hate to break the news to you, but there already exists a Jewish state of Israel with true security for all Israelis. This security is attained through a perpetual war against terrorism and Arab aggression.

And the most recent time Israel withdrew from disputed lands without preconditions to allow the potential of the Palestinian people to shine through was in Gaza. The Arabs, hungering for the light of freedom, used the gift to elect Hamas—now an Iranian proxy and always a terror organization—to rain rockets down on the civilians who voted to allow the first democratic Arab entity in history.

If Obama expects Israel to end the "occupation" that began in 1967, he also is demanding Israel abandon parts of Jerusalem. If he really anticipates that a Palestinian state will be "contiguous territory," what he expects is that Israel can't be contiguous.

And when he uses the word "occupation," he is negotiating for the Palestinians. None of the lands up for discussion are "occupied" territory. The president, a highly educated man, knows well that there never has been an ultimate agreement on borders, nor has there ever, in history, been a Palestinian state to occupy.

There is an ethical question that the president might want to answer, as well. Why would the United States support an arrangement that scrubs the West Bank of all its Jews? Why is it so unconscionable to imagine that Jews could live among Muslims in the same way millions of Arabs live within Israel proper? Not many international agreements feature ethnic cleansing clauses. (Isn't this, after all, about peace?)

Of course, we all know why: Jews would be slaughtered, bombed from their homes, and rocketed from their schools. This indisputable fact reveals the fundamental reality of these negotiations.

Instead of reaffirming the importance of our relationship with Israel, Obama has renewed our membership in the United Nations Human Rights Council, presided over by exemplars of self-determination and human dignity, such as Libya, Syria, and Angola. The hobbyhorse of this organization is accusing Israel of war crimes, which isn't surprising.

Noted intellectual George Gilder argues in his most recent book, The Israel Test, that where you stand on Israel—not always, but in general—is an indication about how you feel about the ideals of liberty and capitalism. The debate over Israel, he claims, is the manifestation of a deeper moral and ideological war around the world.

"The real issue," writes Gilder, "is between the rule of law and the rule of leveler egalitarianism, between creative excellence and covetous 'fairness,' between admiration of achievement versus envy and resentment of it."

This nation has no inherent duty to wage endless wars to secure freedom for the world's masses—often against their will. But shouldn't it stand with those nations that already value the basic tenets of a free and peaceful society?

Or are all people now equally deserving of our friendship simply because they exist?

David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Denver Post and the author of Nanny State. Visit his Web site at www.DavidHarsanyi.com.

COPYRIGHT 2009 THE DENVER POST
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NEXT: Obama and the Afghan Abyss

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  1. I confidently predict an acrimonious debate will take place on this thread. There will be much sound and fury and very little acknowledgement of the faults on both sides of this very difficult issue.

    Also, a godwin in less than 30.

  2. Damned straight.

  3. I am just waiting to see the first posting that interjects anti-Semitism into the debate.

  4. Hey, you know what this thread could use? Some hot-blooded, angry, mouth-foaming anti-Israelis, and some shitkickin’, terrorist-hatin’, God-bless-America-and-interests pro-Israelis.

    A vigorous, civil debate is sure to ensue.

  5. That sounds like challenge, JsubD so I’ll try to get the ball rolling.

    “But shouldn’t the U.S. stand with those nations….that already value the basic tenets of a free and peaceful society?”

    Is Mr. Harsanyi seriously referring to a country that routinely attacks its neighbors with the slimmest of provocations and has forcibly evicted from its borders thousands of people on the basis of their religion and ethnicity as he does?

    Why is our relationship with Israel important?

  6. Always happy to do my part HA 😛

  7. “The United States does not negotiate with terrorists-but we insist that Israel do so without preconditions.”

    ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ???. ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????.

    “Or are all people now equally deserving of our friendship simply because they exist?”

    ?? ???? ??????????.

  8. Damn, I could go for some of that blood pastry about now.

  9. Too bad nobody has come here yet to set us Rhoemites straight.

  10. What are Rhoemites?

  11. Us, apparently. Ask Underzog when he gets here.

  12. where’s mng?

  13. This is a disappointing showing all around.

    Jewbama = Hitler

    Discuss.

    1. @jewbama reports that extremist Jew Eliyokum Hakohen refers to US President Barack Obama as “black anti-semetic idiot” http://tinyurl.com/yzvre94

  14. i was pretty annoyed by this article until i read the end.

    “This nation has no inherent duty to wage endless wars to secure freedom for the world’s masses-often against their will. But shouldn’t it stand with those nations that already value the basic tenets of a free and peaceful society?”

  15. I agree. There can be no civil debate between supporters of civilization vs the admirers of Arabic/Islamic savagery which so infect the many Rh?mites on this board.

    The Rh?mites here will defend any act of Arab terror, perhaps because they admire it so. We have just had four — count em — four terrorist attempts by Arab/Islamics (I think one was a wasp convert) and there will all be this Israel/Jew bashing here.

    I’m not the one who tried blow up the Findley building as the Rh?mites anti-Semitic buddies did.

    “The virtue of Libertarianism is its great diversity. Only Libertarainism can combine priest, monogomist, and family men with those into rational bestiality and leather. Only Libertarianism can combine the homosexual motorcycle gang and the acid dropper interested in the price of silver.”

    From what I remember of a quote by Walter Bloch.

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  16. What took you so long, Underzog?

  17. I have to go, Warty.

    I’ll check on the vicious and stupid things you Rh?mites say about me later.

    Luv ya!

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

    The Jewish Defense League Marching Song

  18. Jewbertarians, maybe?

    Hey, don’t laugh, I was called that by a white-supremacist thug who tried to run under our party banner, because we don’t share his “Joos are evul” mentality.

    He also referred to me as a traitor because I encourage interracial marriage, and fractional divisions thereof. When I told him I was “down with the swirl”, he damned near threatened me physically.

    Gotta love those cavemen.

  19. You know, this balance between the necessities of the geopolitical world and the US feeling of being on the side of good is just so much wasted effort.

    Obama should set loose the dogs of war and conquer the world.

  20. Underzog,

    Was ist ein Rh?mite?

  21. TLG, that’s exactly what a Rhoemite would do to try to fool people. Luckily Underzog’s on to you.

  22. This security is attained through a perpetual war against terrorism and Arab aggression.

    Terrorism and aggression, not people. Why not just come out and say it’s good vs. evil.

  23. Why is our relationship with Israel important?

    They are our greatest ally in the war on sand Nazi terror.

  24. This article trots out the most overstated pro-Israel memes (“They pulled out of Gaza and all they got was bombs!”… Sorry, but they still control all of Gaza’s borders…. “There never WAS a Palestinian state!”… There were never Native American “states” either, but would we really say that we didn’t commit a horrible atrocity by signing treaty after treaty, expropriating more and more land until they were just about all gone?….), uses typical anti-Arab/Muslim outrage, and the most simplistic ideographs “free” and “peaceful” to describe Israel.

    Really disappointing given how fresh most of Reason’s commentary is.

    Also, I don’t think any self-respecting libertarian ought to give a shit about being “friends” with another nation. Why is that the government’s place? This is precisely the libertarian problem with Israel, that for too long the US has donated billions of taxpayer dollars to fund an enterprise that has done nothing but exponentially increase our presence abroad, resulting in more taxpayer dollars spent, a more bloated government, etc etc etc, all with the foot-shooting result of making the rest of the world hate us MUCH MORE than when it all started. Do we really think that hatred came from nowhere? That people are fundamentally anti-West? No, they’re anti-West because the West has done nothing but fuck with their shit for decades.

  25. They are our greatest ally in the war on sand Nazi terror.

    How many Israeli troops are fighting alongside the Americans? (Can’t seem to find a good answer.)

  26. No, they’re anti-West because the West has done nothing but fuck with their shit for decades.

    Shit like publishing cartoons of the prophet Mohammed?

    Their reaction to that shows how important it is to be popular with them.

  27. How many Israeli troops are fighting alongside the Americans? (Can’t seem to find a good answer.)

    Every terrorist they kill is one less terrorist available to murder American troops.

  28. Yes, it definitely makes sense that the world’s two leading Muslim civilian killing nations should stick together.

    And does whoever wrote the summary blurb above seriously believe Israel’s own human rights record is something to crow about?

  29. Every terrorist they kill is one less terrorist available to murder American troops.

    You’re falling prey to the same mistake my DiffEq students often do with population models, that is, failing to take into account the effects on the terrorist reproduction rate.

  30. You’re falling prey to the same mistake my DiffEq students often do with population models, that is, failing to take into account the effects on the terrorist reproduction rate.

    How did the Battle of Iwo Jima affect the Japanese soldier reproduction rate?

  31. How did the Battle of Iwo Jima affect the Japanese soldier reproduction rate?

    Without Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there would be no Godzilla.

  32. There is a serious level of blind propaganda-fed flag-waiving going on here. I expect some–despite Israel’s crimes they are “allies” (us in the us vs. them equation). But what’s perplexing is when people react to similar distortions drom the pro-Arab side. Ahmadinejad may be a buffoon but he also knows what certain factions like to hear. Denial of the holocaust is radical and dangerous and unworthy of being a part of the discussion. But denial of Israel’s crimes and the way Arabs are demonized by western voices in support of Israel is not much better.

  33. Only took 15 comment to get a serious Godwin.

  34. There is a serious level of blind propaganda-fed flag-waiving going on here. I expect some–despite Israel’s crimes they are “allies” (us in the us vs. them equation).

    We did ally with Stalin, who was far worse than any Israeli PM.

  35. Only took 15 comment to get a serious Godwin.

    and that was without the first team in. well done!

  36. ??? ?? Underzog ?? ??.

    (I am with Underzog on this one.)

  37. Yes, it definitely makes sense that the world’s two leading Muslim civilian killing nations should stick together.

    Palestine and Syria? Or Palestine and Iraq? Iraq has slowed down on that in the past few years.

  38. Sorry, but they still control all of Gaza’s borders….

    Because Egypt is their puppet, or are you using some other theory?

  39. Why is this article on here?

  40. How did the Battle of Iwo Jima affect the Japanese soldier reproduction rate?

    If the terrorists were easily identifiable, confined to an island containing only terrorists and US troops, and we had a clear idea of what needed to be done to defeat them, this would be an apt comparison.

    I do appreciate the neocons and other hawks claiming simultaneously that this is a totally new kind of war requiring that we ignore the Geneva conventions and rules of engagement and such, and then identifying it with WW2 at the drop of a hat. You’ve got to pick one or the other.

  41. Palestine and Syria? Or Palestine and Iraq? Iraq has slowed down on that in the past few years.

    We laugh because it’s funny, and we cry because it’s true. This comment only makes me laugh.

  42. Every funeral should be like the Arafat funeral, to show how grown up a nation is.

  43. “Because Egypt is their puppet, or are you using some other theory?”

    Yes, precisely. Egypt may occasionally express frustration with Israel in public statements, condemning their attack on the blockaded Gaza population for example, but they still wouldn’t dare remove their part of the blockade unilaterally. And even if they did, one would still have to call Gaza occupied by Israel because that border would still be under Israeli control, as would the Gazan airspace.

  44. Between this one and Cathy Young’s BS commentary on torture, I have to ask: is there some unwritten rule at the Reason Foundation that permits anydamnthing if the perp is on “our team”? ‘Cause this jingoistic anti-Arab bullshit isn’t libertarian by any stretch.

  45. calvin,

    So, those ammunition supply tunnels are made invisible to the Egyptians by the craftiest of the brilliant Palestinians, otherwise Egypt would be shutting them down?

  46. Why is this article on here?

    ‘Cause this jingoistic anti-Arab bullshit isn’t libertarian by any stretch.

    libertarianism isn’t nearly as monolithic as LondonLib and Rob McMillin seem to think it is. People who self-identify as libertarian and who agree broadly on libertarian principles can have reasonable disagreements on foreign policy and international conflicts, particularly in situations as convoluted as Russia and Israel.

    Declaring your opponents to be outside the bounds of reasonable debate does nothing to expose the weakness of their arguments. Now either engage the actual issues up for discussion or kindly STFU.

  47. I only have an observation about the title, not the article itself. “How to lose friends…”, the title says, as though we risk losing Israel’s friendship with our recent words. How many friends does Israel have in the world other than the US? China? Russia? Europe? Pah! Israel is all but friendless in the world. We have a very very long way to go before Israel will be able to afford to lose our friendship, no matter how fair weather that friendship turns out to be.

    Kolmogorov

  48. The US should support the existence of Israel, just not its existence as a Jewish state. Something about fervently supporting theocracies seems a bit un-American.

  49. That’s okay. After Obama throws Israel under the bus we will be best pals with Iran.

  50. The US should support the existence of Israel, just not its existence as a Jewish state. Something about fervently supporting theocracies seems a bit un-American.

    Main Entry: the?oc?ra?cy
    Pronunciation: \th?-??-kr?-s?\
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural the?oc?ra?cies
    Etymology: Greek theokratia, from the- + -kratia -cracy
    Date: 1622
    1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
    2 : a state governed by a theocracy

    That ain’t Israel. They have a state religion as do many other nations.

  51. I’ve actually been pretty pleased with Obama on Israel/Palestine so far. It’s about time a president grew a pair and told them to stop violating their own treaties by building settlements on Palestinian land in an effort to provoke and assert their military authority over the Palestinian people. Then they can act shocked…(shocked!) when the Palestinians actually try to rebel against this.

    I see it as similar to the Native Americans vs. the white settlers – whites gradually pushed the natives into increasingly limited spaces via forced relocation after taking all the most desirable and arable land. It was a travesty then, and it is a travesty now. Why should our government support via our tax dollars a country intent on fulfilling its manifest destiny?

    Isn’t the libertarian position to cut off entangling alliances? Israel has long been our worst entangling alliance and have a deep hold over our government. I’m all for keeping friendly relations with all nations, and really don’t have a problem assisting with peace talks or engaging in diplomacy, but not wasting millions of dollars in defense of another wealthy industrialized country, and it’s hard to be a fair adjudicator in peace talks in this case because we are obviously biased. I like Obama’s more balanced approach, and think Israel needs to be weaned off our military welfare titties.

  52. That ain’t Israel. They have a state religion as do many other nations.

    So they may not fit the strict definition of a theocracy but many of their policies are enacted for religious ends (immigration law is a good example). The goal of their government is to maintain a majority Jewish state. When government policy and laws are used to advance religious ends, it seems like it’s one short hop to theocracy.

    Regardless, I don’t mean to come off as anti-Israel. They are by far the most free nation in the middle east and are absolutely entitled to protect themselves from threats both foreign and domestic. I just think they would have fewer problems if they became a state devoted to freedom instead of Judaism.

  53. George Washington said we should avoid foreign entanglements. You never really know the lengths your “friends” will go to stay your “friends.”

    http://how911wasdone.blogspot.com/

  54. This article has made me take Reason of my bookmark/reading list. Why should my tax dollars support a terrorist state like Israel? I thought Reason was better than this. Goodbye!

  55. Alright, a troofer and someone who posts without being able to read upthread. Threadkill anyone?

  56. still second team. really disappointing. like going to a major league game and seeing eddie gaedel batting for a-rod.

  57. I’m really disappointed with Underzog’s performance. What a tease.

  58. Underzog’s performance

    Yup, I’m more convinced than ever that the guy is performance art.

  59. I’m really disappointed with Underzog’s performance. What a tease.

    after all, what is bo bo brazil without bruno sammartino? true performance art needs at least two talented players. not that i’m attributing talent to anyone involved, but still.

  60. Talent is in the eye of the beholder, edna. If you think you’re watching talent, you are.

    Speaking of talent, do you suppose Underzog hires a Shabbat goy type for him on Shabbat? Typing out insane homophobic rants would be work, you know.

  61. “But shouldn’t the U.S. stand with those nations-like Israel-that already value the basic tenets of a free and peaceful society’

    If you are one of the many tens of thousands of Palestinians occupied and ruled at IDF gunpoint you might question Israel’s valuation of free and peaceful society…

  62. “Or are all people now equally deserving of our friendship simply because they exist?”

    ?? ???? ??????????.

    No, equality (??????????) is applying the same rules to everyone. Israel follows the rules of a democracy. Hamas and Fatah do not. Making a separate, less restrictive, set of rules for Hamas and Fatah is far from equality.

  63. Here’s how I knew not to take Underzog seriously: when he advocated nuking Iran.

    Nuking Iran would have detrimental effects on Israel for sure. To not give a shit is to give yourself away.

  64. “Israel follows the rules of a democracy.”

    Interesting theory jtuf. The couple of million folks in the West Bank get to vote in Israeli elections and have other basic Israeli citizenship rights?

    Oh, they don’t.

    But Israel rules them.

    Hmm, Locke is going to have a problem with this I’m afraid…

  65. calvin | September 26, 2009, 1:32pm | #

    Also, I don’t think any self-respecting libertarian ought to give a shit about being “friends” with another nation.

    Clinton hugged Arafat in the 1990’s. Obama is supporting the PA. Calvin, could you link to some noninterventionist libertarians that spoke out against those two cases of the US entangling itself with foreign powers?

  66. Rich | September 26, 2009, 1:36pm | #
    They are our greatest ally in the war on sand Nazi terror.

    How many Israeli troops are fighting alongside the Americans? (Can’t seem to find a good answer.)

    Israel was the only country beside Kuwait that took damage on it’s homeland on our behalf during the Gulf War I. Israelis were willing to join our coalition then, but Bush Sr said no thanks.

  67. “Obama is supporting the PA”

    Hilarious jtuf! How is he “supporting” the PA?

    Hint: your best answer is probably not “by giving massive economic and diplomatic support to Israel”, which is what he is doing

    BTW-Clinton hugged Arafat during an attempt by him to get Arafat and others to stop hurting Israelis. Yeah, what a jerk!

  68. “Israelis were willing to join our coalition then, but Bush Sr said no thanks.”

    Because our entanglement with them is usually a liability to us reaching our goals, and Bush I saw that.

  69. Damn, I miss Israel. Good times

    Well, I hope I get a chance to go back there before Obama sells it back to the Arabs.

    Actually, to be honest, I am much more upset in Obama’s policy toward Honduras than I am in his policy toward Israel, Iran, or Libya. I mean it is early yet, but he has not really been that radical. I say that as a Rush Limbaugh listener.

    I am kind of curious where Obama will go with our losing war in Afghanistan. The only thing IMO that will turn that war around for us will be for us to ignore the drug war in that part of the world. And to support more decentralized government.

    I don’t see Obama doing either of those.

  70. Tony | September 26, 2009, 1:54pm | #
    There is a serious level of blind propaganda-fed flag-waiving going on here. I expect some–despite Israel’s crimes they are “allies” (us in the us vs. them equation).

    Tulpa | September 26, 2009, 3:23pm | #

    I do appreciate the neocons and other hawks …

    Wow, talk about projection. “They’re neocons. Get them,” is not a very effective argument.

  71. “I say that as a Rush Limbaugh listener.”

    Oh shit, et tu kwais?

  72. I think Underzog is a Hamas performance artist, attempting to discredit Israel supporters. But he might just be a performance artist that gets kicks from being ridiculous.

    Jtuf,
    Last time we had a discussion about Israel, I recall you defending Israel, by pointing to unlibertarian actions that the US has also/ is also partaking in. Actions that pretty near all the libertarians on this thread oppose.

    J sub,
    Good call on the godwin.

  73. kolmogorov | September 26, 2009, 4:35pm | #
    I only have an observation about the title, not the article itself. “How to lose friends…”, the title says, as though we risk losing Israel’s friendship with our recent words. How many friends does Israel have in the world other than the US? China? Russia? Europe? Pah! Israel is all but friendless in the world. We have a very very long way to go before Israel will be able to afford to lose our friendship, no matter how fair weather that friendship turns out to be.

    Kolmogorov

    Other countries see how the US treats Israel. This tells them how valuable an alliance with the US is. Right now, India is not too happy with the US tripling our funding for Pakistan. By looking at Obama’s treatment of Israel, they can predict that America won’t provide India any protection.

  74. The Honduras thing is the new Chavez thing.

    Look, I can totally see Obama’s pov here.

    If the Pres was doing bad things, then try him. Go through the process. It is totally bad and destablizing to have the military kidnap the guy and kick him out in another country. That’s nutting futts! What are they supposed to say “good job!”?

  75. The difference between underzog and jtuf is that when it comes to Israel the former swallows and the latter does not. But they both suck plenty hard.

  76. MNG,
    you really don’t have to agree with the dude, and I don’t about most foreign policy, and Terry Schiavo, and some others stuff that I can’t think of right now.

    But the dude is educational.

    Anyways, you already knew that me and you disagree about much.

  77. Hobo Chang Ba | September 26, 2009, 5:13pm | #
    I’ve actually been pretty pleased with Obama on Israel/Palestine so far. It’s about time a president grew a pair and told them to stop violating their own treaties by building …

    Which treaty are you refering to?

  78. “” they can predict that America won’t provide India any protection.“”

    not our job dude

  79. That last post by jtuf is priceless.

    By kneeling for Israel’s cum shot we essentially piss off a third of the world. And we get what for it in return? Well, India is watching our example!

  80. “But the dude is educational.”

    Nope.

  81. MNG, old buddy.

    How about sending some of that Saudi money you guys at Human Rights Watch are asking for my way?

    Keep in mind that when MNG of Human Rights Watch bashes Israel, that slimey group is trying to get Saudia money and MNG won’t send any to me 🙁 Human Rights Watch uses its anti Israel cred to raise money from the Saudis.

    Also, one of Human Rights Watch other Israel bashers — besides MNG, that is — wears his collection of Nazi regalia while writing smears against Israel Human Rights Watch defends its Nazi fetishist bashing Israel.

    Hedly Lamar: “Kinky”.

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  82. Ur, yeah Undy.

    Now please go watch Spongebob while the adults talk.

  83. kwais
    My point on Obama and Honduras?

  84. So, Benjamin Netanyahu, gave a pretty good speech at the UN no?

    I liked it.

    I didn’t like the part where he referenced being president of the “jews” he is president of a lot of people, Moslem, Christian, Jewish and other.

    Some of the hardest workers and fighters in the Israeli army are the Drudes, or however it is spelled, they are another one of those strange Arab religions.

    Anyways, about this whole “Jew vs Arab” thing, I have to say something that will probably piss everyone off, and is un PC.

    But the Jews in Israel ARE Arabs. I mean they are generally smarter, better organized, and a little lest socialist (a little, not much).

    But they are the same animal. All the stereotypes that you attribute to one, you can easily attribute to the other.

  85. Hobo Chang Ba | September 26, 2009, 5:13pm | #

    I see it as similar to the Native Americans vs. the white …

    Yes, when Rashidun Caliphate conquered the Byzantines in the area, they dismantled the Byzantine legal system and land ownership system just like the Europeans did to the Native Americans.

  86. kwais, I thought the same thing, only that he was a neo-Nazi. I’m still not sure he’s not, but he posted video of himself singing the IDF fighting song here awhile back. If that’s trolling, that’s Neil level trolling.

    As for the issue at hand, we’re dealing with sovereign nations, ostensibly at least. Why don’t we let them figure out (and fucking pay for) their own affairs.

  87. p.S. if the Arab savages don’t like it in Israel they should leave.

    Actually, they should leave anyway — kicked out per stipulations laid down by the great Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt”l Kahane was right!

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  88. Hobo Chang Ba | September 26, 2009, 5:13pm | #

    Isn’t the libertarian position to cut off entangling alliances? …

    Which is why libertarians should dennounce US aid to the PA. Could you please link to some cases of libertarians taking a stand against US support for the PA?

  89. “”My point on Obama and Honduras?“”

    You are probably right that the military should not have kicked him out of the country.

    You don’t kick your own citizens out of your country for any reason. You try them and convict or acquit. In other words, you take care of your own trash.

    That said, the president was attempting an unconstitutional coup. It was right that he was arrested.

    And really it is not our business to get involved. We specially should not be getting involved on behalf of the bad guy.

  90. Brian Lockwood | September 26, 2009, 5:31pm | #
    That ain’t Israel. They have a state religion as do many other nations.

    So they may not fit the strict definition of a theocracy but many of their policies are enacted for religious ends (immigration law is a good example). The goal of their government is to maintain a majority Jewish state. When government policy and laws are used to advance religious ends, it seems like it’s one short hop to theocracy.

    I’m willing to have a long and detailed debate on this if you want. In a nut shell, I think it’s OK for Israel to base its laws on the Torah just as the UK bases its laws on the Magna Carta. If you agree we can build a debate from there. If not, then why not?

  91. Oh, underzoggy, you’re back. The next paragraph is for you.

    The whole “Israel is our friend” idea is kind of betrayed by the fact that they have been caught spying on us at least twice, and knowingly bombed one of our ships in the Mediterranean as a warning to keep the fuck away from them when they want to kill people.

    You can stop reading now, zoggy, ’cause what I’m about to say will confuse your addled mind.

    It should go without saying that none of the other countries in the area are our “friends”, either, and we shouldn’t give a plug nickel to any goddamn one of them. The House of Saud has been the progenitor of radical Wahhabi Islam, and if there’s one potential positive to the “green energy” boondoggles we’re getting into, it’s that we may deprive those dirtbags of the billions flowing into their coffers annually.

  92. As you agree that it was wrong to kidnap the guy and kick him out of the country, then you can see why the administration takes the position they do. The guy may be a creep, but he was never removed properly, and officially we have to be against that.

  93. Warty | September 26, 2009, 7:35pm | #
    Talent is in the eye of the beholder, edna. If you think you’re watching talent, you are.

    Speaking of talent, do you suppose Underzog hires a Shabbat goy type for him on Shabbat? Typing out insane homophobic rants would be work, you know.

    Do you have any reason to believe Underzog observes Shabbat, or is that just your stereotype of Israel supporters?

  94. (immigration law is a good example)

    Their immigration law, while based on racial lines, are actually pretty loose – IIRC you only need one grandparent who was a Jew to qualify. This has led to a lot of immigrants who don’t necessarily see themselves as Jewish. To the point where they recently discovered neo-Nazi groups (of primarily Russian origin) in Israel.

  95. “”As for the issue at hand, we’re dealing with sovereign nations, ostensibly at least. Why don’t we let them figure out (and fucking pay for) their own affairs.“”

    Amen, then the comment threads would be just like the Georgia/Russia comment threads where we just come away with that both sides are assholes.

    I have been to Israel, and I have been to Palestine, and I have friends on both sides. And for the most part all over Palestine people were much friendlier than I was expecting them to be. My friends there knew I was working for the US govt, on behalf of the IDF.

    Actually, I have good friends in the IDF, I also have a couple of good friends that went to jail over their refusal to join the IDF.

    I can’t honestly say that I am for sure the area would be better off without our involvement. I think that it might be. Better for both sides.

    But I oppose our involvement on principle.

  96. MNG | September 26, 2009, 7:49pm | #
    “Israel follows the rules of a democracy.”

    Interesting theory jtuf. The couple of million folks in the West Bank get to vote in Israeli elections and have other basic Israeli citizenship rights?

    Oh, they don’t.

    But Israel rules them.

    Hmm, Locke is going to have a problem with this I’m afraid…

    Actually, they get to vote in PA election, just like New Yorkers get to vote in New York elections but not in New Jersey elections. Oh wait, Abass and Arafat had a habbit of postponing those elections. Why do you give the PA a free pass to oppress West Bank residents?

  97. Look guys, there is football to watch (Penn State v. Iowa).

    But how any libertarian can justify our stupid support for Israel is beyond me.

    As Locke noted, even if a nation is at fault in aggression against you, you are NOT entitled to occupy their lands (the women, children, etc., who are thereby deprived of those lands should not be punished). There is NO justification for ruling others without their consent (even in Gaza Israel reatains and regularly exercises the right to police the borders, engage in “arrest” incursions, police the air-space, etc). Certainly you are not entitled to push long time landoccupiers off their land to build settlements for your people…

    Israel’s foes include groups that deserve only loathing. They often target civilians and are un-democratic in the extreme and should be condenmend.

    That does not take away from criticism of Isreal when they engage in wicked actions.

  98. Cause this jingoistic anti-Arab bullshit isn’t libertarian by any stretch.

    Yep. Harasanyi (sp?) is apparently too invested in this issue to force himself to be even remotely objective. Stop letting him write about circumcision and Israel-related stuff, Reason editors. Please. He’s making us look too neocon.

  99. Good one jtuf! It shows one why Isreal “withdrew” from Gaza, eh? For the PR value only!

    But of course the Gaza PA has virtually no autonomy that anyone would respect, right jtuf? Israel not only retains rights to police the harbors, airspace, and border (including “collecting customs for the Palestinains, and then deciding to withhold them”), but they since the agreement have exercised rights to go into PA territory and “arrest” whomever they want. And hold and detain such folks without charge indefintely…

    How libertarian!

  100. MNG | September 26, 2009, 7:55pm | #
    “Obama is supporting the PA”

    Hilarious jtuf! How is he “supporting” the PA?

    Under Obama’s leadership, the US pledged $900 million to the PA. Obama also calls for the PA to be an independent nation. MGN, if you are going to keep arguing in these posts, please stay current on the news. My point was, you only object when the US supports Israel, not when the US supports the PA. Neutrality means not supporting either side.

  101. BP,

    I am against the whole “Green Energy” boondogle. I think markets when left alone will find the cleanest cheapest energy. (markets are magical, where are you?)

    And Saudi Arabia and Egypt are both tyrants that we support, not because we buy their oil, because that alone doesn’t support them. Our government, our CIA, and our all powerful State Department supports them.

    (True story, one time I was pulled over by the cops in Egypt, and when they found out I was American, they said, “of course you can go, you own this country”)

    I think that if we left Saudi Arabia alone, there would be a civil war there. The price of Oil would go up. A Taliban style government would probably win, but it is not for sure.

    The price of oil going up would be incentive to be more green.
    The Taliban government would inspire rebellion and it would burn itself out, because it is not a reality based government.

    The Taliban would not have lasted in Afghanistan were it not for Pakistan support, and the support of international aid agencies.

    About Egypt, I don’t know. Maybe the Islamic brotherhood would win, maybe a more liberal socialist government would win over. Socialism does seem to be a deep seated belief in the people over there.

  102. I can’t honestly say that I am for sure the area would be better off without our involvement. I think that it might be. Better for both sides.

    Kwais, I hate to use the terminology, but I honestly believe we’re “enabling” them in their continued stupidity. If we told them (the diplomatic equivalent of) “fuck you idiots – if you want to kill each other, go right ahead, we’re sick of your bullshit”, they might actually be forced to come to some peaceful accommodation.

    But you’re also right that we shouldn’t be there because we shouldn’t be involved in “foreign entanglements”.

  103. MNG | September 26, 2009, 7:55pm | #

    BTW-Clinton hugged Arafat during an attempt by him to get Arafat and others to stop hurting Israelis. Yeah, what a jerk!

    Clinton hugged Arafat in an attempt to build a legacy. The changes Clinton insisted on caused the number of Israelis killed each year by terrorism to jump upwards in the 1990’s.

  104. kwais, I agree about the green energy boondoggles, I’m just trying to find a diamond in the shit, so to speak. Also, I include nuclear with “green”, especially if we get smart and start building breeder reactors.

  105. MNG | September 26, 2009, 7:57pm | #
    “Israelis were willing to join our coalition then, but Bush Sr said no thanks.”

    Because our entanglement with them is usually a liability to us reaching our goals, and Bush I saw that.

    You mean, “because the Gulf Cooperation Countries would have bailed out on us and let Kuwait burn rather than fight on the same side as Israelis.”

  106. Under Obama’s leadership, the US pledged $900 million to the PA. Obama also calls for the PA to be an independent nation. MGN, if you are going to keep arguing in these posts, please stay current on the news. My point was, you only object when the US supports Israel, not when the US supports the PA. Neutrality means not supporting either side.

    So yeah, the $900 million is wrong, though not as wrong as the $3 billion a year to the Israeli government. Or the fact that we put Israel on their land. (wether israel should be on their land or not, I don’t know, but I do think that it is not our place to do so).

    If I were in charge of Israel, I would declare all of Palestine to be part of Israel, they have the right to vote, and are considered equals.

    From there on the *individuals* that do violence on others, (the terrorists) would be treated as criminals and arrested for life or executed, and anyone that helped them would also be.

    There would initially be more violence because of increased opportunity to do so. But it would die down, and be harder to justify. there are many Arabs and Moslems that live peacefully inside Israel. And they recognize that they enjoy a better run government and more freedoms and prosperity than most their Arab neighbors in the surrounding countries.

  107. kwais | September 26, 2009, 8:06pm | #

    Jtuf,
    Last time we had a discussion about Israel, I recall you defending Israel, by pointing to unlibertarian actions that the US has also/ is also partaking in. Actions that pretty near all the libertarians on this thread oppose.

    That accusation you directed towards me is too vague to defend against. Could you be more specific?

  108. Do you have any reason to believe Underzog observes Shabbat, or is that just your stereotype of Israel supporters?

    Of course all Israel supporters observe Shabbat. They also wear funny hats, swill Manischewitz, bake pastries made with Arab childrens’ blood, and fly in space.

    It’s after sundown, so you’re clear to remove that stick from your ass.

  109. kwais | September 26, 2009, 8:09pm | #
    “” they can predict that America won’t provide India any protection.””

    not our job dude

    Agreed. I’m all for the US backing off and being noninterventionist. The problem is, that’s not what Obama is doing. The US is trying to play power broker, but it doesn’t have the staying power to enforce those brokered deals. It is one thing to just not get involved. Making promises and then breaking them will hurt us in the long run much more than keeping out hands off would.

  110. “”Their immigration law, while based on racial lines, are actually pretty loose – IIRC you only need one grandparent who was a Jew to qualify. This has led to a lot of immigrants who don’t necessarily see themselves as Jewish. To the point where they recently discovered neo-Nazi groups (of primarily Russian origin) in Israel.

    Yeah there are a lot of Russians over there. Actually if I could speak russian it would have been more useful that being able to speak Hebrew over there.

    The story that I got was that people within the Israeli government are/were afraid that because Moslems/ Arabs make babies at a higher rate than Jews do, that they needed an influx of white non Arabs to make sure the government stayed Jewish.

    So, they looked to the Russians, who wanted to get out of their country, because it sucks. Russians bribed some people to fake their jewishness, and the Israeli government looked the other way.

    So now in Israel you have all these Russians who love pork, work on the Shabat, and are clearly not jewish, by race or by religion.

    They are bigger, more muscular their noses are different. And for the most part they are more discriminated against than even the Arabs.

    (I asked one of the light skinned IDF guys who couldn’t pronounce the ‘H’ if he was Russian, and he said “don’t ever confuse me with a Russian again, I will be an Arab before I will be a Russian”.

  111. BakedPenguin | September 26, 2009, 8:20pm | #

    As for the issue at hand, we’re dealing with sovereign nations, ostensibly at least. Why don’t we let them figure out (and fucking pay for) their own affairs.

    Agreed.

  112. Treated as criminals? They’re war criminals — not criminals. It should be a war against Islam and terrorism (pretty much the same thing) — not treating it as a parking ticket!

    But all of this is academic. Until Israel has a Kahanist type government and shoots and kicks out the Arabs, Israel will keep trying to kiss their collective asses and the Muslims will keep trying to kill them. Just like when Israel appeased the terrorists by withdrawing from Gaza and the savages there shot rockets into Israel as a reward for Israel’s acquiesence.

    Of course, the Rh?mite anti-Semites there think the Arab agression from Gaza is perfectly justified.

    Anything can be done against the Jews by the Judenhass dregs that infect this Reason Hit and Run board.

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  113. MNG | September 26, 2009, 8:34pm | #
    Look guys, there is football to watch (Penn State v. Iowa).

    But how any libertarian can justify our stupid support for Israel is beyond me.

    I’m still waiting for you to dennounce the US support for the PA.

  114. If we told them (the diplomatic equivalent of) “fuck you idiots – if you want to kill each other, go right ahead, we’re sick of your bullshit”, they might actually be forced to come to some peaceful accommodation.

    This seems a reasonable position, modulo the “forced” conclusion.

  115. d | September 26, 2009, 8:38pm | #

    Yep. Harasanyi (sp?) is apparently too invested in this issue to force himself to be even remotely objective. Stop letting him write about circumcision and Israel-related stuff, Reason editors. Please. He’s making us look too neocon.

    Funny you should mention circumcision. Today I saw a clip about the smile train. Since the members of that organization perform relatively benign surgery on children for aesthetic reasons, I would put them in the same category parents who have their sons circumcised.

  116. MNG | September 26, 2009, 8:39pm | #
    Good one jtuf!

    Which of my posts are you responding to there? You neglected to quote it.

  117. kwais | September 26, 2009, 8:53pm | #
    Under Obama’s leadership, the US pledged $900 million to the PA. Obama also calls for the PA to be an independent nation. MGN, if you are going to keep arguing in these posts, please stay current on the news. My point was, you only object when the US supports Israel, not when the US supports the PA. Neutrality means not supporting either side.

    So yeah, the $900 million is wrong, though not as wrong as the $3 billion a year to the Israeli government. Or the fact that we put Israel on their land. (wether israel should be on their land or not, I don’t know, but I do think that it is not our place to do so).

    Thank you kwais for dennouncing the aid to the PA. Like you, I think the US should stop aid to both sides. I can also understand a libertarian making his dennouncements proportionate to the size of the aid. When MGN refuses to even ackowledge US aid to the PA, it shows that he isn’t upset over US aid, he is upset over Israel.

  118. Warty | September 26, 2009, 9:01pm | #

    It’s after sundown, so you’re clear to remove that stick from your ass.

    I never had one in there in the first place. I’m not a big fan of splinters.

  119. If you are one of the many tens of thousands of Palestinians occupied and ruled at IDF gunpoint you might question Israel’s valuation of free and peaceful society…

    If those retarded Gazans would just STOP shooting shit at Israel the guns will be pointed elsewhere.

  120. I do appreciate the neocons and other hawks claiming simultaneously that this is a totally new kind of war requiring that we ignore the Geneva conventions and rules of engagement and such, and then identifying it with WW2 at the drop of a hat. You’ve got to pick one or the other.

    During WW2, illegal combatants were sumarrily killed, as Thomas Sowell pointed out.

    If the terrorists were easily identifiable, confined to an island containing only terrorists and US troops, and we had a clear idea of what needed to be done to defeat them, this would be an apt comparison.

    I brought up the Japanese because the Japanese had an entire population to recruit soldiers from. They were willing to fight to the last man until the atomic bombings.

  121. This after dark H&R is as wild as SF says.

  122. I brought up the Japanese because the Japanese had an entire population to recruit soldiers from. They were willing to fight to the last man until the atomic bombings.

    Until? They were still being found in the 1970’s.

  123. In fairness to MNG Jtuf, MNG sez that he is a socialist rather than a Libertarian. But he writes on this board so much. I’m closer to being a Libertarian than he is (I even voted for Harry Lorraine), yet I am the one who is so hated here.

    Why should Socialists hate Israel and the Jews so much? I’ve made a list:

    Leftwing anti-Semitism. Where does it come from?

    “The Israelite religion [is] nauseating.”

    Karl Marx’s letter to Arnold Ruge

    “What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest.”

    “What is the wordly cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his wordly god? Money!…”

    “Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of mankind and converts them into commodities….”

    “What is contained abstractly in the Jewish religion — contempt for theory, for art, for history, for man as an end in himself…”

    “The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Jewishness.”

    From Karl Marx’s essay on The Jewish question

    “…since the Mensheviks were the faction of the Jews and the Bolsheviks that of native Russians, it would be a good thing to have a pogrom in the Party.”

    Josef Stalin’s remarks reproduced from his 1907 underground newspaper

    “In the Doctors’ plot [Stalin’s final purge to kill the three million Jews of Russia] of 1952-1953, a majority of those accused were Jews, but some were not. The Jewish element was publicly emphasized but it was under the guise of a link with “Zionism….”1 (emphasis added)

    1. The Great Terror
    pp 66

    “The Jews are descendents of of apes and pigs.”

    Arab textbooks directed to little children who later mouth these obscenities

    Obscene leftwing, anti-Semitic protests. It’s no wonder that even far back as the 1960s that a person who witnessed the Nazi era thought the New Left were the Nazis redux

    Zombietime hall of shame

    “Anti-Semitism is the Socialism of fools.”

    August Bebel (not Jewish btw….)

    “Anti-Semitism is the intellectualism of stupid people.”

    Mary McCarthy

  124. Gee… those fk’n Joos fighting back against the Palis who are trying to kill them? Fighting back even in a modest capacity? How dare they? Who do these Joos think they are?

    Human beings?

    The Jewish state is just The Neighborhood Bully by Bob Dylan.

  125. Yea, Israel is the big problem. They are the ones who destroyed Gaza as soon as it was turned over to the Palestinians. They were the ones tossing Arafat’s coffin onto a Jeep. They are the ones operating the tunnels from Egypt.

    Quite a crafty bunch they are.

  126. Underzog,

    Serious questions:

    1 What do you think should be done, if anything, about the Arabs that live peacefully in Israel?

    2 Should the US give aid to Israel, or to any middle eastern country? If so why?

    3 Is a person who is a Jew better in any way than a non jew? Should they have any rights that a non jew shouldn’t?

  127. May I try?

    1 What do you think should be done, if anything, about the Arabs that live peacefully in Israel?

    Nothing, let them keep voting and electing representatives to the Knesset.

    2 Should the US give aid to Israel, or to any middle eastern country? If so why?

    Probably not, but maybe we should cut back what we give Egypt to what we give Israel.

    3 Is a person who is a Jew better in any way than a non jew? Should they have any rights that a non jew shouldn’t?

    No and in Israel they don’t. In Palestine, different story.

  128. If those retarded Gazans would just STOP shooting shit at Israel the guns will be pointed elsewhere.“”

    Here is the thing Suki
    (of True Blood fame)

    I agree with you. Probably we all do, maybe including MNG. Even most of the Palestinians I talked to agree that the individuals in Gaza that shoot at Israel, or Israelis should be shot back at and probably killed.

    Actually, I am probably more brutal than most in my opinions on this. I believe that if you throw a big rock at a guy with a gun, that you deserve to get shot.

    That said,
    Punishing a whole population for the crimes of some is not right. War is different, but it is not war what is between Gaza and Israel.

    So you statement of;
    those retarded Gazans” is a little troublesome. Substitute ‘Gazan’ for inner city black, and you might see the problem.

    Now, I agree that the problem is a little more complicated than that. What is Israel to do? Is it a war or a police action?

    In a war, you are by necessity less discriminate, as you should be.

    I can’t say that what the IDF does is immoral, because they are indeed shot at. I can say that they have the Army and the power of a first world nation, and they are fighting against an unorganized small band of Armed men. And that they are not solving the situation.

    They are not decreasing the will of the “retarded Gazans” to shoot at them, they are increasing it. The people that live in Gaza, have a different religion, and maybe an inferior culture, but they are the same animal as the Israelis. The same race for the most part.

    They are not a foreign species that does not respond to reason, or to human understanding of reward and punishment. They probably respond much the same as you would.

  129. Suki,

    Those questions were for Underzog, I figure the rest of us, even those of us who disagree would answer those questions similarly.

    I would like to get Underzog to answer those, because he has made some very outlandish comments here.

    There is not that much of a difference overall between you, me, MNG, and Jtuf, in comparison.

  130. They are not a foreign species that does not respond to reason, or to human understanding of reward and punishment. They probably respond much the same as you would.

    What was their reaction to those cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed?

  131. Okay, Kwai….I’ll see how to respond.

    1. What do you think should be done, if anything, about the Arabs that live peacefully in Israel?

    Answer: Kick them out! Rav. Kahane, Zt”l laid down guidelines for getting them out of Israel, except it’s worse now because so much blood has been tasted by the Arabs in Israel with their human bombs and infitada.

    2. Should the U.S. give aid to Israel, or to any middle eastern country? If so why?

    Answer: There are obviously good, non anti-Semitic reasons for not giving aid to any middle eastern country; however, Israel is worth more than the relatively paltry aid that the U.S. gives them. Also, appeasement of the Arabs by slimely infidels such as us does not lead to them liking us, but to contempt and violence against us. We have the most anti Israeli president ever, but we also have four islamic terrorist attempts against us. That “the Messiah” kisses the but of the Muslims will not make them like us. To satisfy Libertarian sensibilities and not hurt the U.S. too much, we should’ve cut off aid to Israel before 9/11 — not now because it will only look like weakness and your Arab heroes have nothing but contempt for that as they are showing.

    3 Is a person who is a Jew better in any way than a non jew? Should they have any rights that a non jew shouldn’t?

    Answer: I’ll give a secular response. Is this supposed to be a joke of yours, Kwai? Jews are hated the world over. We are the world’s [n word plural] and it is both cruel and unfair. We are not liked. You and your friends may consider that justified because in your gut you know we’re bums, but I and many of my brethren do not feel that way about ourselves so we need a place to keep away from all of you. A place of our own. We’ve seen your humanity from the Crusades, pograms, holocausts; etc., and many of us say enough!

    Even the U.S. which had a friendly president is not the same place as an unfriendly president is now in his place (voted in by my stupid, Liberal brethren btw…)

    It may not be a question of whether Jews are better than anyone else by you chaps, but whether er even deserve to enter a bus on one end and be in one piece alive at the other. This is the low view that you and the rest of the world voice and practice.

    For cripes sake! You begrudge us a state the size of Massachusetts or New Jersey? If I had my druthers, I would make the Jewish state far bigger so you folks would scream even louder! Go ahead and scream as long as you are not near us.

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  132. That said,
    Punishing a whole population for the crimes of some is not right. War is different, but it is not war what is between Gaza and Israel.

    Nice try.

    The punisher’s are the Palestinians, firing their attacks from civilian areas against Israeli civilian areas, inviting attacks at their own infrastructure to perpetuate their victim hood.

    So you statement of;
    “those retarded Gazans” is a little troublesome. Substitute ‘Gazan’ for inner city black, and you might see the problem.

    Substitute Gazan for Poetry Major and the dilemma is solved.

  133. “”No and in Israel they don’t. In Palestine, different story.“”

    Much of the west bank, is just a suburbs of Jerusalem. I don’t really see how it can be its own country, it is neighborhoods separated by Jurassic park type barriers, and not connected to eachother.

    They use israeli money, (or US Dollars) phone services, licensing of vehicles, and when they commit the equivalent of a federal crime they are prosecuted by Israeli authorities. They have to have an Israeli ID to go between Palestinian territories.

  134. Substitute Gazan for Poetry Major and the dilemma is solved.“”

    hmmm, when you put it like that, we need to send more taxpayer money to finance the killin’ of them.

  135. Those questions were for Underzog,

    That is why I asked to try, rather than asking as if they were for me.

  136. Much of the west bank, is just a suburbs of Jerusalem. I don’t really see how it can be its own country, it is neighborhoods separated by Jurassic park type barriers, and not connected to eachother.

    Because one side wants to summarily murder the other side. Guess which side is putting up the walls to protect their people from the barbaric murderers?

  137. GOHZIRRA!!!

  138. For cripes sake! You begrudge us a state the size of Massachusetts or New Jersey

    Underzog,
    by me you can have both of those states. really, take them, subdue or kick out the inhabitants, as you will. It could only be an improvement.

    Seriously,
    No one on this board is an anti semite. We used to have a couple of Arabs on that used to post on this site, Ali, and Mo. I would wager that neither of them were anti Jew. And I would wager that both of them recognized an Israeli right to exist.

    Suki,
    Check out Underzog’s answers to my questions, the first one fits the definition of genocide.

  139. Because one side wants to summarily murder the other side. Guess which side is putting up the walls to protect their people from the barbaric murderers?“”

    there are *individuals* in both sides that want to murder the other sides (read underzog’s answers for an example, even if he is not real). The jurassic park barriers will not solve that problem in the long run.

    Mass punishment, and racial segregation is not an acceptable answer, IMHO. As it would not be with any race or group in this country.

  140. kwais | September 26, 2009, 10:13pm | #
    “”No and in Israel they don’t. In Palestine, different story.””

    Much of the west bank, is just a suburbs of Jerusalem. I don’t really see how it can be its own country, it is neighborhoods separated by Jurassic park type barriers, and not connected to eachother.

    Kwais, the current barriers and restrictions in the West Bank are a more recent response to the intifada. Life in the West Bank was much better in the 1980’s. Israel’s plan at that time was to integrate the West Bank economy with the economy of the rest of Israel. This “economic peace” was supposed to bring about a political peace. Under those policies, the Arab population and per capital income in the West Bank grew considerably. Clinton put a halt to this process, because he wanted to implement a top down peace process that he could get the Nobel Peace prize for. Yes there is suffering in the West Bank, but much of the responsibility for it rests with the US imposed policies. Netanyahu is going back to the policies of the 1980’s. I expect life for ordinary people on both sides to improve greatly as a result.

  141. The punisher’s are the Palestinians, firing their attacks from civilian areas against Israeli civilian areas, inviting attacks at their own infrastructure to perpetuate their victim hood.

    Would it be ok for us to treat any group of people in our country that way? (I mean besides poetry majors and hollywood stars)

  142. Check out Underzog’s answers to my questions, the first one fits the definition of genocide.

    Sweet, fine, well. What the hell does that have to do with me? I gave my answers to your questions independent of him. But, in some ways I agree with him. Perhaps not all.

  143. wow, went away for dinner, came back and saw that the starters were back in. this ought to be a great game. who’s got the beer?

  144. Would it be ok for us to treat any group of people in our country that way? (I mean besides poetry majors and hollywood stars)

    Any? No, not the peaceful ones. The shitty little murderous bastards that want to kill people because they have a Star of David displayed? Yes. Not exactly the same, but the Weather Underground? Yes. SLA? Yes.

  145. Kwais, when someone wins a law suit against a government, it is mass punishment, because every tax payer ends up paying the settlement. We allow lawsuits against governments, because people who are joined in a political body do have some collective responsibilities. For example, a county can’t just decide to summarily dismiss all the murder cases involving black victims in its jurisdiction. Do you agree so far? If so, we can build from there.

  146. Clinton put a halt to this process, because he wanted to implement a top down peace process that he could get the Nobel Peace prize for. Yes there is suffering in the West Bank, but much of the responsibility for it rests with the US imposed policies. Netanyahu is going back to the policies of the 1980’s. I expect life for ordinary people on both sides to improve greatly as a result.“”

    So Clinton, besides being a rapist, a sexual harasser, a perjurer, and the guy who allowed 9/11 to happen was also a giant dick in another area?

    OK

    I like Netanyahu, he seems like a straight shooter, but I don’t really know. I hope you are right. And I hope we stay out of the way.

    I like Israel, it is my favorite Middle Eastern country to visit. ( I haven’t been to Lebanon yet). Part of Israel that I like visiting is Palestine.

  147. All of the Palestinian ‘suffering’ is cause by stupid Palestinians who can’t behave and bring retribution onto themselves.

    Gaza sucks because of the people who live there, per someone else I have read here, and I agree.

  148. For example, a county can’t just decide to summarily dismiss all the murder cases involving black victims in its jurisdiction. Do you agree so far? If so, we can build from there.

    absolutely.

  149. Otherly stated, Gaza sucks because of the people who live there just like Detroit.

  150. It serves me right to try to answer seriously this anti-Semite who despises Jews for defending themselves.

    If I comment here again, I’ll keep in mind what little importance serious conversation is to these eliminationist anti-Semites and go back to parody!

    When I mention that the Islamic Arabs regard as weakness those who acquiesce to their demands, the Hit and Run clowns have no right to be non plussed because the anti-Semitic idiot does the same to me when I try to follow his dictates and answer his questions in a serious and forthright manner. He attacks me with his stupid lies just as an Arab would attack an infidel with a knife for brown nosing him. See the Palis whom the anti-Semitic State Department constantly appeases happily dancing over 9/11 and its horrible casualties

    No wonder so many Libertarians are pro Islamic (funny behavior for godless athiests) and pro terror. Libertarian Kwais contemptable behavior toward me mirrors the revolting and paradoxical behavior that the Muslim terrorists exhibit.

  151. Ok. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Hamas summarily ignores attempts to kill Israelis and actual murders of Israelis by rockets launched in Gaza. So, does Israel have a right to collect damages from the government of Gaza in a law suit?

  152. Yea, I am still with Underzog here.

  153. Any? No, not the peaceful ones. The shitty little murderous bastards that want to kill people because they have a Star of David displayed? Yes. Not exactly the same, but the Weather Underground? Yes. SLA? Yes.

    We punish individuals, not groups. Not neighborhoods, not races. Individuals.

    We don’t even punish all members of the Weather Underground, or the SLA, only those that committed crimes.

    And in Jtuf’s example above,
    If in a neighborhood, or government, there is a prosecutor or a judge that dismisses murder cases against a certain race. Say if there were in a New Orleans a prosecutor that dismissed murder cases where the victims were white, that would be sufficient reason for the feds to get involved and prosecute the judges or prosecutors.

    A certain amount of national shaming should be involved also. We have racial tensions in this country, and we have racists on both sides in this country. The solution is “freedom and equality for all”. and though my ancestors may have wronged the ancestors of people of a different color, that does not excuse them committing crimes against me.

  154. Ok. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Hamas summarily ignores attempts to kill Israelis and actual murders of Israelis by rockets launched in Gaza. So, does Israel have a right to collect damages from the government of Gaza in a law suit?

    If that area were Libertopia, yes. But it isn’t so Israel should bomb them into behaving like adults.

  155. “”Suki | September 26, 2009, 10:49pm | #

    Yea, I am still with Underzog here.””

    Really??

    are you referring to this?
    “”It serves me right to try to answer seriously this anti-Semite who despises Jews for defending themselves.“”

  156. We punish individuals, not groups. Not neighborhoods, not races. Individuals.

    Take your juvenile notions and politely shove them up your ass.

    When some country launches war against another country we do not send out a bunch of detectives to find the agents of action and bring them to tidy little trials. We respond, these days, by tightly targeted bombings, sometimes followed by an invasion.

    Your slimey, pathetic little Palestinian buddies are being treated much too well.

  157. kwais,

    If you learn to read you would be less annoying.

  158. Sigh. I’ve got to call it a night. Hopefully, the examples of suing the government and ignoring murders will shed some light on the idea of collective responsibility. I’ll check in again in the morning.

  159. “”jtuf | September 26, 2009, 10:48pm | #

    Ok. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Hamas summarily ignores attempts to kill Israelis and actual murders of Israelis by rockets launched in Gaza. So, does Israel have a right to collect damages from the government of Gaza in a law suit?

    Absolutely.

    In the same vein, full legal rights of Gazans to take the IDF to court should be recognized too. If Palestinians are given the same rights as settlers.

    If the law is transparent and non partisan, by all means let the chips fall where they may.

  160. Now this creep is trying to make a cyber pogram against me.

  161. d —
    “Yep. Harasanyi (sp?) is apparently too invested in this issue to force himself to be even remotely objective. Stop letting him write about circumcision and Israel-related stuff, Reason editors. Please. He’s making us look too neocon.”

    wasn’t harsanyi against circumcision? and i don’t find this to be neoconny. i’m a randian, though.

  162. “”Suki | September 26, 2009, 10:57pm | #

    kwais,

    If you learn to read you would be less annoying.“”

    Mom? Is that you?

  163. “”If that area were Libertopia, yes. But it isn’t so Israel should bomb them into behaving like adults.“”

    That strategy has been working so well for them. Maybe they are not using enough bombs yes?

    Kind of like the idea that if we make punishment more severe we can rid our country of drug users.

  164. In the same vein, full legal rights of Gazans to take the IDF to court should be recognized too. If Palestinians are given the same rights as settlers.

    I may be misreading. The IDF forcefully removed the settlers. Then the Gazans destroyed anything they could get their hands on.

  165. That strategy has been working so well for them. Maybe they are not using enough bombs yes?

    Yes, they need to take a lesson from the Allies of WWII on dealing with Germany and Japan, NOT the British dealing with the IRA.

  166. I’m for Israel doing whatever the hell it wants…so long as MY country isn’t the one subsidizing a quarter of it’s economy.

    It’s just another stretch of real estate on the other side of the planet we need to start disentangling ourselves from militarily and politically. Sooner the better.

  167. I’m for Israel doing whatever the hell it wants…so long as MY country isn’t the one subsidizing a quarter of it’s economy.

    We aren’t so stop worrying.

  168. @ jtuf:

    Since the members of [The Smile Train] perform relatively benign surgery on children for aesthetic reasons, I would put them in the same category parents who have their sons circumcised.

    Yeah, going through life with a horribly cleft palate is an “aesthetic” problem. I would put your statement in the jerk category.

  169. If we are done talking about the peaceful Palestinians, can we talk about the intelligent life ruins on Mars or the Moon?

  170. Suki | September 26, 2009, 11:29pm | #

    If we are done talking about the peaceful Palestinians, can we talk about the intelligent life ruins on Mars or the Moon?

    We can indeed, I had not heard about that.

    But I am sure we are far from talking about Israel/ Palestine.
    Tomorrow is Sunday, and this thread should stay alive for that reason.

  171. We aren’t so stop worrying.

    We aren’t?

  172. kwais,

    Citation needed.

  173. Citation needed for what?

  174. 2002 Cato handbook on policy says 91 billion in foreign aid so far.

  175. Suki,
    So understand that my reading skills are sub par,

    but citation for what?
    That the Palestine Israel discussion is probably not over?
    That we subsidize Israel?

  176. Haven’t been able to refind the quarter of the economy bit, but so far it appears to be anywhere from 2-5 billion a year just in the 2000’s.

    So let me restate my case. I don’t care what Israel does, so long as no U.S. tax money goes to fund it.

  177. kwais,

    Citation Needed for This:

    kwais | September 26, 2009, 11:36pm | #

    We aren’t so stop worrying.

    We aren’t?

  178. Haven’t been able to refind the quarter of the economy bit, but so far it appears to be anywhere from 2-5 billion a year just in the 2000’s.

    Got a link for that, kwais junior?

  179. Substitute ‘Gazan’ for inner city black, and you might see the problem.

    The pedant in me thinks you meant to write:

    Substitute inner city black for ‘Gazan’, and you might see the problem.

  180. Got a link for that, kwais junior?

    Why the fuck is the onus on reasonable people to just type “Israeli Foreign Aid” into fucking google…

    http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/245-2008-november/3845-congress-watch-a-conservative-estimate-of-total-direct-us-aid-to-israel-almost-114-billion.html

  181. Your slimey, pathetic little Palestinian buddies are being treated much too well.

    Suki, get your reverse-Nazi ass out of here, and FUCK OFF! And take your Klan hood with you, you bitch.

  182. Or just type Israeli Foreign Aid in http://www.Cato.org‘s search engine…

  183. oh,
    I understood your “we aren’t” as a reference to “we are subsidizing the Israeli government with taxpayer money”

    So the citation for our subsidizing Israel, would be our bases that are there.

    And this mentioned earlier:
    2002 Cato handbook on policy says 91 billion in foreign aid so far

    And the 3 billion that we give to Egypt each year. Although that has the dual purpose of keeping the Islamic brotherhood at bay, I think that it is also not our business, and also harmful to Egypt and to us.
    http://pdf.dec.org/pdf_docs/PCAAB191.pdf

    http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm
    These 2 countries receive one-third of the total
    aid, the majority of which pays for armaments.
    Yet, neither is a “developing” country.
    One-third of ALL US AID goes to Israel and Egypt.

  184. Just to clarify;

    I don’t think that the US should take any action against Israel or Egypt. I just think that our financing them causes more harm than good for both countries.

    I think that we should maintain friendly ties, free trade with, and dialog with both.

    I just don’t think that the government is right to say that this amount of taxpayer money is owed to them. I think that is wrong.

    And on a side note, I think that both governments are repressive unfree, and socialist.

    I think that our government is also socialist and unfree.

  185. d[egenerate], you’re a twisted sickie.

    I don’t call you guys Rh?mites for nothing. You are as sick and twisted as Rh?m’s S.A. was back in the Weimer era.

    Reverse Nazis? Jews who defend against their being murdered are klansmen?

    Take your marijuana and cocaine and go to an Arab country so you don’t infect this country which you hate, too.

  186. You Rh?mites should not be elected to any office — even dog catcher!

    Since, according to Walter Bloch, rational bestialists are okay as Libertarian members if one of you guys was dog catcher you might molest the dog first before putting into the dog pound gas chamber.

    Disgusting! Maybe you guys will do the same thing to Jews before you help the Arabs cut their heads off (and then will be your turn at the knife).

  187. Christ, I can’t even go on a libertarian website without finding blind support for the zionist occupation of Palestine. Maybe the Palestinians wouldn’t be shooting rockets into Israel if Israel wasn’t trying to have them ethnically cleansed through illegal settlements and blockades. fuck Israel. fuck zionism.

  188. Its hard to generalise about supporters of Israel. Many of them are far from libertarians, and then there are heaps of rabid anti-Israel libertarians who blindly support Palestinian violence.

    Unfortunately for Ron Paul, many of his supporters were pretty anti-Israel. He would generally draw support from the anti-Iraq, anti war on terror crowds and none of them are too fond of Israel.

    Then you’ve got the extremist kooks who think “zionists” are to blame for evils like the federal reserve.

  189. Reviewing yesterday’s comments, I see that some people posted rants against the Russian-Israeli community. Immigration from the Former Soviet Union to Israel is justifiable on asylum grounds.

  190. Sean | September 27, 2009, 2:21am | #
    Christ, I can’t even go on a libertarian website without finding blind support for the zionist occupation of Palestine. Maybe the Palestinians wouldn’t be shooting rockets into Israel if Israel wasn’t trying to have them ethnically cleansed through illegal settlements and blockades. fuck Israel. fuck zionism.

    Ethnically cleansed? Please define that term so I can evaluate your claim.

  191. Jono | September 27, 2009, 3:43am | #
    Its hard to generalise about supporters of Israel. Many of them are far from libertarians, …

    In other words, “They’re not one of us. Get them!”

  192. Beezard | September 27, 2009, 12:19am | #
    Or just type Israeli Foreign Aid in http://www.Cato.org‘s search engine…

    I searched for “foreign aid” in the Cato search engine and got a paper that included this segment.

    Aid to the Middle East
    The region receiving the largest amount of U.S. foreign aid is the Middle
    East. Under the category of promoting peace (also the largest category in
    the aid budget) Egypt and Israel alone enjoy $5 billion per year in U.S.
    economic and military assistance. The economies of both nations, however,
    are among the most socialized in the world, and the massive U.S. subsidies
    have been a crucial factor in the ability of the Israeli and Egyptian governments
    to sustain such systems. With its annual per capita income of $640,
    Egypt remains one of the poorest countries in the world, and ‘ ‘Israel ranks
    at the bottom of all Western countries on every measure of economic
    freedom,” according to Hoover Institution scholar Alvin Rabushka.
    Israel could have a thriving free-market economy, capable of providing
    the military forces for its own defense, if it only introduced market reforms
    of the kind other nations have been forced to implement in recent years.
    Likewise, Egypt could deepen its timid liberalization measures and begin
    to turn its economy around. Unfortunately, U.S. aid subsidies once again
    discourage the type of change that would benefit millions of Israelis and
    Egyptians.
    There is no justification for economic aid, and the rationale for the
    military aid portion of the U.S. subsidy is increasingly weak. Military
    assistance became a staple during the Cold War when an aggressively
    expansionist Soviet Union openly backed radical Arab regimes and terrorist
    movements. Israel faced a serious threat to its security from such Sovietsponsored
    adversaries-as did any moderate Arab government that had
    the temerity to contemplate peace with Israel. Today, however, the political
    landscape has changed beyond recognition. The radical faction has lost
    its Soviet sponsor (and the flow of arms that accompanied that sponsorship),
    leaving Arab leaders a choice of concluding peace with Israel or persisting
    in a policy of confrontation that now has virtually no prospect of success.
    324
    Cato Handbook for Congress
    Moreover, Israel has a decisive advantage in military capabilities-including
    a nuclear deterrent of 100 to 300 bombs and warheads-over any
    remaining adversary.
    Under such changed conditions, Israel should be able to provide for its
    own security without a perpetual military subsidy from the United States.
    Egypt’s principal need is for rapid economic growth and political reform.
    Helping to generously fund me Egyptian military is hardly an effective
    way to promote those goals. Washington should eliminate economic aid
    to both countries within two years and phase out military assistance in
    four to five years.
    Such a move would not hurt the Middle East peace process, as many
    aid enthusiasts claim. A high level of U.S. participation in the peace
    process is unnecessary, as the Oslo peace accords-which were the result
    of secret talks between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel-
    demonstrated. The United States should no longer pay bribes to the Mideast
    countries to get them to adopt policies mat are in their own best interest.

  193. Rich | September 26, 2009, 11:23pm | #
    @ jtuf:

    Yeah, going through life with a horribly cleft palate is an “aesthetic” problem. I would put your statement in the jerk category.

    If you have a counter argument, please present it. If you are just here to throw insults, please don’t.

  194. MNG | September 26, 2009, 8:08pm | #
    The difference between underzog and jtuf is that when it comes to Israel the former swallows and the latter does not. But they both suck plenty hard.

    MNG | September 26, 2009, 8:10pm | #
    That last post by jtuf is priceless.

    By kneeling for Israel’s cum shot …

    MNG, please keep your comments civil.

  195. I agree with most of Harsanyi’s points. But I find it disconcerting that his point about the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria, if you prefer) territories ignores the fact that much of the acrimony over settlements stems from their having been built on lands that had previously been owned and farmed by Arabs for generations, that the water supplies for said settlements have been provided at the expense of Arabs nearby, and that the roads leading to and from these settlements are forbidden zones to Arabs, thereby cutting them off from one another. None of these things excuse terrorism, which I always have condemned in all its manifestations, but I bring them up to at least point out that Harsanyi’s comments make it sound like Palestinians are the only ones guilty of wrongdoing, and are therefore unreasonable in the extreme. If that mentality persists on either side (and certainly the Arab side is guilty of it), progress in achieving peace will remain impossible.

  196. Like the Israel-Palestine conflict, Israel-Palestine threads nuke the fridge early and often. My hat’s off to jtuf for his calm, rational debating.

  197. Good point, Mr. Kheiry.

  198. What is this article doing in Reason.com?

  199. I should be angry and, instead, be more understanding of you Libertarians here and your hatred of Israel and Judaism.

    Just as with homosexuality, Judaism frowns down on bestiality, calling for the death of the human and the beast engaged in the act. Such dictims from Jewish law would be certain to antagonize the Ernst Rh?m wannabe perverts which make up the Libertarian party.

    On the other hand, the Ayatollah Khomeini cut his religious chops on explaining the beauty of having sex with a goat: Ayatollah Khomeni, pedophilia and bestiality okay with him

    Unlike those Joos who think themselves the “chosen people,” the Muslims are hip and allow the losertarians of Hit and Run to do what they want in the privacy of their own back alley bedroom *(before they cut their head off, that is).

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  200. correction: I meant to say, I shouldn’t be angry.

  201. OK, I admit that was funny, Underzog. Butif you’re not really Jewish, don’t you think your schtick is a little…incorrect?

  202. I agree with most of Harsanyi’s points. But I find it disconcerting that his point about the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria, if you prefer) territories ignores the fact that much of the acrimony over settlements stems from their having been built on lands that had previously been owned and farmed by Arabs for generations, that the water supplies for said settlements have been provided at the expense of Arabs nearby, and that the roads leading to and from these settlements are forbidden zones to Arabs, thereby cutting them off from one another. None of these things excuse terrorism, which I always have condemned in all its manifestations, but I bring them up to at least point out that Harsanyi’s comments make it sound like Palestinians are the only ones guilty of wrongdoing, and are therefore unreasonable in the extreme. If that mentality persists on either side (and certainly the Arab side is guilty of it), progress in achieving peace will remain impossible.

    Maybe those Jordanians should have stayed home instead of trying to invade Israel and getting their asses kicked back across the river.

  203. To which an Arab might reply, “Maybe those Jews should have stayed home in Europe instead of moving to a country where they weren’t wanted.”

    Why didn’t the Jews just stay in Europe? Oh, right, there was that whole rounding up and killing thing that the Germans got going but the rest of the Eurotrash pretty happily participated in.

    Why didn’t the Jews just move to America? Ooops, the Americans didn’t want them. The American Jews didn’t even want them.

    It’s an awful godamn shame that the Arabs have had to pay the price of Europe’s and America’s guilt complex about the Holocaust.

  204. Jtuf, Suki, Artpog(?) == have a good yom tov.

    MNG be sure to send some of that Saudi money Human Rights Watch is getting my way.

    “There’s no need to fear. Underzog is here!”

  205. Ahab the Ayrab,

    Yea, awful. Jews moving to a new country and buying homes there. Terrible. Oh the humanity. Yawn.


  206. Why didn’t the Jews just move to America? Ooops, the Americans didn’t want them. The American Jews didn’t even want them.

    I think the Jews Should have come to America and Moved up north somewhere.

    There were many Jews in America and they would have been welcomed. Yea, maybe the likes of David Duke and George Wallace may have made some noice. But let me tell you, we would NOT have what is goin’ on today.

    It’s been over 50 years that the bad decision of Creating Israel in the midst of those nomatic savages. And if you look at the conflict carefully…America has LOST A LOT. Creating Israel was a bad Idea.

    Think of the Antifadas. The ones from 1988 thru 2001. We, In America, on September 11th, 2001 lost more people in that attack than Israel lost in the entire period of BOTH antifadas….And, it will probably get worst.

    The problem has always been that the USA has always proped Israel up with Weapons, Bombs, Satellites, and Nuclear Weapons. Had Israel not had the USA, they would have had to COMPROMISE….which would have been healthier for the entire region. Right Now, Israel pisses on all Arab countries because they know that we will NUKE any country that messes with them. So, why compromise. I wouldn’t if i had America on my side.

    Nonetheless, it’s 50 years later. And, there’s no point in moving the Israelis out of Israel at this point. Several generations of Jews have been Born in Israel. Israel should show a little more respect for the Arabs. The Israelis did, in fact, steal their land. And, in history, many of lands have been stolen…but it’s usually followed by a Genocide. I think that this is the 1st example in history that Genocide didn’t follow.

    Hey Jews,

    I love Jews. Jewish people were a major influence in my life growing up in a NYC ghetto. I went to college due to the fact that I had a neighbor who’s grandson would visit…and influenced me into going to college.

    The Jews that support Israel unconditional seem a fanatical as the the Muslims that flew their planes into my job and the Christian that shot the Doctor in Church.

    From being friends with Jews for so many years I’ve learned that ISRAEL is in the HEART…Not a dessert strip of land amonst a bunch of savages. I wish you guys gave in a little.

  207. AB,

    All of Israel’s neighbors had help from the rest of the world, plus great stores of natural resources. What did they do with Gaza as soon as the keys were turned over to them? If your first guess is being productive nice neighbors then you are sadly, blindly, misguided.

  208. “Maybe those Jordanians should have stayed home instead of trying to invade Israel and getting their asses kicked back across the river.”

    Suki – you might just be right. I fail to see how that’s a counterpoint though… unless your implied point is that might makes right. I have no qualms about that outlook, and in fact I acknowledge that historically, millions upon millions of people have been exterminated or displaced by more powerful claimants to the land, and that’s just seen as a logical outcome. The difference now is that world tolerance for that has ebbed somewhat, and not recognizing that reality is detrimental to Israel, just as focusing solely on that reality has enabled Hamas and others to leverage sympathy for their insupportable actions.

  209. Suki,

    They’re a bunch of savages (The Palestinans). I dont necessarily mean that in a racist way.

    The are the children of refugees, have had their businesses and homes destroyed, are not allowed to participate in commerce, and are pissed upon not only by jews and americans…but by other arabs.

    Their behavior is what is to be expected from people treated like this.

    If you or I were born into this, we’d be throwing rocks at tanks too.

  210. Suki – you might just be right. I fail to see how that’s a counterpoint though… unless your implied point is that might makes right.

    Might makes right? No, it is if you are going to try to be a bully don’t cry when you get your ass kicked after trying to beat someone else up. How you are jumping to “might makes right” when the victims won the fight is puzzling.

  211. If you or I were born into this, we’d be throwing rocks at tanks too.

    And destroying your brand new greenhouses that your European benefactors purchased from the Israeli settlers as soon as you get to move in? Don’t think so.

  212. “Under Obama’s leadership, the US pledged $900 million to the PA.”

    Our support for the PA, much like our support for Egypt, had its foundations in deals with Israel. Essentially where Israel used to have to pay money to administrate the Occupied Territories we (& Europe) took it off their hands, and while Israel retain ultimate control over the territories they now can point to the PA and say “hey we let them rule themselves.” It was a win-win for Israel.

  213. “I think it’s OK for Israel to base its laws on the Torah just as the UK bases its laws on the Magna Carta”

    What a poor analogy. It would be like the US basing its laws on the New Testament.

    “Ok. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Hamas summarily ignores attempts to kill Israelis and actual murders of Israelis by rockets launched in Gaza.”

    Hamas won with less than a majority of the votes. Israel recently killed over two thousand Gazans. Do you think they were all Hamas supporters? All the rocket attacks of the last few years didn’t come close to damaging Israel at the magnitude Israel damaged Gaza.

  214. Unemployment in Gaza is insanely high as is poverty. Israel enforces an embargo on Gaza. Yep, goods are not allowed to be traded btween willing producers/consumers, they are stopped at the border by men with guns. You’d think libertarians would have an issue with that. The Israelis come in with bulldozers and push people’s houses over and put settlements for other people in their place, they pave roads for their settlements over farmer’s land and such. You’d think libertarians would have a problem with that. They currently hold hundreds, maybe thousands of Gazans without charge or trial. You’d think libertarians would have a problem with that.

    Remember, Israel makes right-leaning libertarians crazy. Their principles go out the window.

  215. “No, it is if you are going to try to be a bully don’t cry when you get your ass kicked after trying to beat someone else up.”

    Yeah, but in this case after the victim beat up the bully he went and took over the bully’s house for four decades and forced the bully’s wife and kids to stay in the house for all that time.

    Look, there is a reason that since the time of Locke it has been considered immoral to occupy the territory of the loser of a war, even a war justly fought. The bad actions of the loser don’t give you a right to rule other people without their consent and by force. It’s indefensible.

  216. MNG you need to take it easy.
    As for the embargo and high poverty in Gaza, I don’t see it as a real consideration in this debate.

    Egypt also seals its border with Gaza. And many other Arab states keep hundreds of thousands of Palestinians as “refugees” without citizenship.

    All I’m trying to hint at is that there are a few issues here that make it really really really impractical (right now) to implement a libertarian utopia of open borders and free movement of people and goods between all territories in the middle east.

    I don’t think libertarians see Israel as the statist agressor oppressing a sea of freedom loving peaceful individuals.

  217. “Egypt also seals its border with Gaza” Per an agreement with Israel.

    “And many other Arab states keep hundreds of thousands of Palestinians as “refugees” without citizenship”

    Behind a big wall while killing thousands of them, detaining hundreds of them without trial or charge and preventing them from trading/working?

  218. I’m bettin’ a lot of those Hebrew Obama bumper stickers are gonna start disappearing. I’m gonna have to go for a run through the largest eruv here and see if I notice if the number of bumper stickers has changed. Since the eruv encompasses the most liberal suburb of the county it’s always fun to count Obama stickers on Priuses, parked next to S class Mercedes, 7 series Beamers, and H3s, in front of huge, outdoor lit, homes with all the inside lights on. Poor Al would have a coronary.

  219. The true Palestinian homeland is Jordan. Or at least it was, until the PLO tried to overthrow the government and got their asses kicked out by the Hashemites.

    I’m not sure why the world puts all the pressure on Israel give the Palestinians an independent home, and puts none at all on Jordan. For that matter, I’m not sure what the logical argument is for the Palestinians being “entitled” to have their own country in the first place, especially given their historical behavior.

  220. @jtuf

    I searched for “foreign aid” in the Cato search engine and got a paper that included this segment.

    I’m a bit confused.. was that segment supposed to be used against my belief that we should stop funding Israel? Because it seems to pretty much concur.

    “Egypt and Israel alone enjoy $5 billion per year in U.S.
    economic and military assistance. The economies of both nations, however,
    are among the most socialized in the world, and the massive U.S. subsidies
    have been a crucial factor in the ability of the Israeli and Egyptian governments
    to sustain such systems.”

    “Israel should be able to provide for its
    own security without a perpetual military subsidy from the United States.”

    I agree with this 100%. I believe Israel has a right to maintain it’s weird, socialist race state so long as it can pay for itself. It’s simply none of my business.

    I just don’t think we should be subsidizing anything over there with U.S. tax payer money. (that includes sponsoring Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia) or anyone else.

  221. And as far as Harsanyi’s actual article goes, I don’t buy it.

    If one of the basic tenets of American libertarianism is to disentangle yourself politically from alliances that get you ensconced in world affairs that have nothing to do with your direct safety, then Israel is one of the FIRST nations we should start ignoring politically (after Saudi Arabia).

    I’m supposed to not give a rats ass what the French think of us… but Israel, they’re different…?

  222. Since the members of [The Smile Train] perform relatively benign surgery on children for aesthetic reasons, I would put them in the same category parents who have their sons circumcised.

    You’re not stupid enough to believe that.

  223. Also, I’m glad to see that Underzog finally brought the crazy. Moar calling us dogfuckers plz

  224. MNG is annoying sometimes, but Underzog…holy fucking shit. If he’s not a parody troll, he really is crazy as hell. I mean like lock him up, medicate him sort of crazy. It’d be fascinating to study him in an institution (“Mr. Underzog, what is bothering you about the cafeteria hot dogs?” “THEY ARE CREATED WITH THE BLOOD OF ISRAELI BABIES BY RHOEMITE* ANIMALS DOING BUSINESS WITH ARAB SCUM!”)

    *The hell does this even mean?

  225. MNG | September 27, 2009, 10:07am | #
    “Under Obama’s leadership, the US pledged $900 million to the PA.”

    Our support for the PA, much like our support for Egypt, had its foundations in deals with Israel. Essentially where Israel used to have to pay money to administrate the Occupied Territories we (& Europe) took it off their hands, and while Israel retain ultimate control over the territories they now can point to the PA and say “hey we let them rule themselves.” It was a win-win for Israel.

    No, the Obama administration pays money to the PA, because Obama likes the ego boost from turning other nations into vassal states. Israeli has obligation to fund the PA, just as New York has no obligation to fund New Jersey.

  226. Correction: Israel has no obligation to fund the PA, just as New York has no obligation to fund New Jersey.

  227. Hugh Akston… the comment police! Very libertarian of you brother.

  228. “”Also, I’m glad to see that Underzog finally brought the crazy. Moar calling us dogfuckers plz“”

    I think he called us goatfuckers, who support terrorism right down to supporting Arabs cutting our own heads off on Al Jazeera.

    I think that was the essence of his comments.

    I think the funny is that he is a performance artist that brings the crazy to bring up a point. But the point is lost, because the crazy is not that out of character on a Palestine/ Israel thread.

    Unlike Lonewhacko, he does answer questions and does actually participate in the debate. So there is that.

  229. MNG | September 27, 2009, 10:21am | #
    “I think it’s OK for Israel to base its laws on the Torah just as the UK bases its laws on the Magna Carta”

    What a poor analogy. It would be like the US basing its laws on the New Testament.

    MNG, I don’t have time to catch you up on a few thousand years of Jewish law, so I’ll give you the short version. Jewish law includes 7 Noachide laws that are for all people. Six of those laws boil down to “don’t harm others” and “down rebel” the last one is a requirement to set up a court system. A goverment based on the Noachide laws could be as libertarian as a government based on the US Constitution.

  230. Behind a big wall while killing thousands of them, detaining hundreds of them without trial or charge and preventing them from trading/working?

    Maybe Israel needs to start carpet bombing to make all of your false accusations actually true.

  231. MNG | September 27, 2009, 10:21am | #

    “Ok. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Hamas summarily ignores attempts to kill Israelis and actual murders of Israelis by rockets launched in Gaza.”

    Hamas won with less than a majority of the votes. Israel recently killed over two thousand Gazans. Do you think they were all Hamas supporters? All the rocket attacks of the last few years didn’t come close to damaging Israel at the magnitude Israel damaged Gaza.

    The civilian casualties in last year’s operations in Gaza were fewer than the Serbian civilian casualties that NATO inflicted in its operation there. That’s why Western European countries threw out the suits against Israel as soon as they were threatened with a suit for the Serbian casualties. Yes, we would want zero civilian casualties, but Israel takes more pains to reduce civilian casualties than NATO does, and Israel keeps the casualty count below the numbers that you find acceptable for NATO.

  232. How does one become a member of the secret Zionist cabal? Do they have a health plan?

  233. Jewish law includes 7 Noachide laws that are for all people. Six of those laws boil down to “don’t harm others”

    No wonder the Palestinians want to murder every last one of them.

  234. MNG | September 27, 2009, 10:22am | #

    MNG, Israel is not perfect, but the same standard should apply to all countries. Israel hasn’t had a redevelopment project in the West Bank for decades, yet you still harp on it while the much more recent Kelo v New London case has dropped of your radar. There are two principles at stake here: 1) individual property rights and 2) equality under the law. I don’t condone the redevelpment projects that happened in the West Bank a few decades ago, but I don’t think you should hold Israel to a standard that you don’t hold the US to.

  235. MNG,

    In case you are not paying attention too good, Israel is the side that fights in uniform from military bases. Palestine, Hamas and Hezbollah are in the side that fights from places of worship, schools, hospitals and from behind the skirts of UN observers and women.

    If the Palestinians would stop hiding behind their civilians and start hiding behind sand bags then Israel would not be shooting so many of their civilians and if they wore uniforms more often, their soldiers deaths would not be mistaken for civilians.

  236. Where would rather attend services? A Synagogue in Gaza or a Mosque in Tel Aviv?

  237. Nooge | September 27, 2009, 12:50pm | #
    MNG is annoying sometimes, but Underzog…holy fucking shit. If he’s not a parody troll, he really is crazy as hell. I mean like lock him up, medicate him sort of crazy. It’d be fascinating to study him in an institution (“Mr. Underzog, what is bothering you about the cafeteria hot dogs?” “THEY ARE CREATED WITH THE BLOOD OF ISRAELI BABIES BY RHOEMITE* ANIMALS DOING BUSINESS WITH ARAB SCUM!”)

    I disagree with your plan, because I support free speech.

  238. Jtuf

    I think that MNG is against the Kelo case,

    and are you talking about settlements? Because I was there a couple of months ago, and they were building a new settlement inside the West Bank at that time.

    I don’t know if it was land that was seized a long time ago, that they hadn’t gotten around to doing construction, or if it was recently seized, but it was in the midst of the west bank.

  239. This study says that US Aid to Israel has cost $3 Trillion
    http://www.rense.com/general41/trill.htm

  240. and are you talking about settlements? Because I was there a couple of months ago, and they were building a new settlement inside the West Bank at that time.

    The current government just put a nine month moratorium on new settlements when Netanyahu returned from Russia, right after Obama sold the Poles to the Russians.

  241. Would it be ok for us to treat any group of people in our country that way?

    Yes, if that group is defined by its members committing murder.

  242. Yes, if that group is defined by its members committing murder.

    Are you serious?
    You either think that every single Palestinian Arab is a murderous thug?, or do you think that because some are it is ok to define the group as such and treat accordingly?

  243. You either think that every single Palestinian Arab is a murderous thug?, or do you think that because some are it is ok to define the group as such and treat accordingly?

    No, just like I know that not every German was a murderous thug in the 1940’s.

  244. Well what is a settlement? Is it where Jewish people buy land and set up a colony like the Hutterites or Dukobors, or a Jewish subdivision where Arabs can buy homes? Or does it involve the expropriation of property by the Israeli government?

  245. Brett,

    Jtuff can probably explain it better, but my understanding is this;

    Zionist Israelis, people who believe that the land should belong to the Jews, decide to build a neighborhood in Palestine, (the west bank, or other Arab territories.)

    They usually pic a some land that has not been developed and wall it off and develop it into a neighborhood.

    I am guessing that Palestinians are not allowed to buy a home in this neighborhood, as they are not allowed to even go on the roads that lead to it (even if the road was prior to the fact a road that they used to go about their business).

    This has the effect of increasing the land that is Israel, and decreasing the land that is Palestine.

  246. No, just like I know that not every German was a murderous thug in the 1940’s.

    hmm, Germany in 1946 would be a better analogy.

  247. jtuf,

    I don’t think any of us were defending the funding of Palestine by our government either, and I don’t think one person said that. (Same with the actions of NATO in Serbia. It’s disingenuous to try to justify one bad thing by another a worse but unrelated thing, and then make your debate opponents have to defend or distance themselves from the other unrelated worse thing before they can address the topic at hand.)

    Our government funds a lot of countries and pretty much all of it sucks. We get up in arms about Israel funding primarily because the amount they receive in both direct aid and arms is enormous and disproportionate, and they’re a developed country with a great deal of wealth already.

    Not only that but the government is not using the money just to defend themselves, but hellbent on the manifest destiny of Zionism. Many Israelis (probably including the current prime minister) won’t be happy until every Palestinian is gone. The government is gradually building settlements on Palestinian territory, which combined with military defenses for these settlements and limits on road usage by the Palestinians, violate all the treaties the government signed. This is provocation, pure and simple. Israel knows that the Palestinians will react to this, and the response will be the flattening of entire villages full of civilians. The Israeli government knows that regardless of the disproportionate response and the huge amount of collateral damage, they can just claim they were defending themselves and still rake in billions in foreign aid without international condemnation.

    As defense minister, Ariel Sharon facilitated a massacre of hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians (including women and children) by the Lebanese Phalangist militia at the Sabra-Shatila refugee camp; the Israeli army surrounded the perimeter and refused to let the refugees flee the camp as the Phalangists did the dirty work. Later Sharon was elected prime minister and is considered a national hero. It’s fucking disgusting that America supported a government run by this kind of person. It’s hardly more excusable than pogroms or the Holocaust. Perhaps the Israelis felt the need to overcompensate for past victimhood by being the new aggressor?

    Look, I’m all for an independent Israel, as much as I disagree with how it came into existence and the methods in which it has maintained itself over the years. It’s reality now, and to the victor go the spoils. Both the Palestinian terrorists and the Israeli Zionist military are at fault for the continued conflict; however, there’s nothing much we can do about vigilante Palestinian terrorists whereas our government DOES have the ability to tell Israeli government to stop provoking the Palestinians by violating the lines that have been drawn between Israeli and Palestinian land and creating military-defended settlements deep in Palestinian territory – or else we will cut off their funding.

    One more note: to you stupid fucks who can’t delineate between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism – many Jews are anti-Zionist. There is no connection between criticism of the actions of the Israeli government and hatred of Jews. Anyone who can’t draw the line is an idiot.

  248. kwais | September 27, 2009, 1:23pm | #
    Jtuf

    I think that MNG is against the Kelo case,

    and are you talking about settlements? Because I was there a couple of months ago, and they were building a new settlement inside the West Bank at that time.

    I don’t know if it was land that was seized a long time ago, that they hadn’t gotten around to doing construction, or if it was recently seized, but it was in the midst of the west bank.

    The construction that made the news this summer was homeowners building additional bedrooms to their homes without increasing the footprint of their existing houses. It does not involve taking any land. When people complain about those projects, they show that they object not to West Bank residents loosing land, but to Jews having a roof over their heads.

  249. I’m sure MGN would say he’s against Kelo v New London if you ask him. However, it’s not on his mind unless someone brings it up. The Israel redevelopments from decades ago are another matter. MGN brings those up. Anyone planning to boycott Israel and not Connecticut is inconsistent.

  250. I am guessing that Palestinians are not allowed to buy a home in this neighborhood, as they are not allowed to even go on the roads that lead to it (even if the road was prior to the fact a road that they used to go about their business).

    Yea, when you rightfully have a reputation for blowing up school buses full of children some people don’t want you hanging around their neighborhood.

  251. Kwais is quoting anti-Semitic sites such as Rense?

    And Jtuf is agreeing with him that I’m crazy?

    Idiot followers.

  252. Brett Knoss | September 27, 2009, 2:10pm | #
    Well what is a settlement? Is it where Jewish people buy land and set up a colony like the Hutterites or Dukobors, or a Jewish subdivision where Arabs can buy homes? Or does it involve the expropriation of property by the Israeli government?

    Most reporters call any Jewish home east of the Green Line a settlement regardless of how the Jew ended up owning the home. Under Israeli law, land owners cannot discriminate by group affiliation when they sell real estate. Under PA law, it is illegal for me to buy a home east of the Green Line, because the PA outlawed selling land to Jews. The history of land ownership in Israel is very complex, but I’ll give a brief overview form my limited knowledge.

    There were a few waves of Jews moving to Israel when it was part of the Ottoman Empire. The leader of the Ottoman Empire welcomed Jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition. Many of them settled in Sefed. Safed real estate is a bit unique, because most of the homes are owned by one person or a nuclear family. In other parts of Israel, private land is owned by the entire extended family. That means you have to get the signatures of all the cousins scattered throughout the world to buy a piece of real estate. There were a couple of waves of Jewish immigration in the decades leading up to WWI. Those Jews mostly worked menial jobs and bought land on their own. After WWI the British had control of Israel. There was more Jewish immigration to Israel and Jews around the World donated to the Jewish National Fund to purchase land in Israel for Jews to live in. Today, about 90% of Israeli land is owned by the Jewish National Fund. Even though the people who donated to the Jewish National Fund intended the charity to go towards Jews, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the Jewish National Fund may not discriminate when they decide who gets to lease the land. Leases from the Jewish National Fund last around 50 years or 100 years. The remaining 10% of the land is mostly in cities or collective communities (moshavs and kibutzes). The history of each depends on the acre in question. In the mid 20th Century, it was common for countries to transfer land from private hands to private hands for “redevelopment”. The US did this with “blighted” land in the cities. Israel did this with abandoned land in Israel. The Israeli policy allowed the current resident of a home to pay the government for ownership of that home. There were also some conscious efforts to build new communities in strategically important highlands to prevent anyone from launching rockets on Israeli population centers from those hill tops. So, the claims for any given acre of land vary from acre to acre.

  253. Underzog, I did not say you were crazy. I said that free speech prevents us from locking you up for what you say. Crazy is a derogatory term for psychiatric survivor. I think you are as sane as the rest of us. I did not want to legitimize the comment about your mental stability by starting a debate about your mental status.

  254. I like how the pro-isreal right who pretend to respect property rights in the US completely ignore the settlements and how the anti-isreal left pretend to respect the property rights of palistinians but ignores property rights here in the US.

  255. Underzog is not sane or he is not real.

  256. Israel is such a clusterfuck that there’s no point in trying to figure out who’s right and who’s wrong. Mark Twain comes to mind:

    Man is the only animal that robs his helpless fellow of his country-takes possession of it and drives him out of it or destroys him. Man has done this in all the ages. There is not an acre of ground on the globe that is in possession of its rightful owner, or that has not been taken away from owner after owner, cycle after cycle, by force and bloodshed.

  257. It is disturbing how some on here are willing to stereotype a whole race of people. That’s not libertarianism.

  258. underzog | September 27, 2009, 2:57pm | #

    Kwais is quoting anti-Semitic sites such as Rense?“”

    If it is an anti-semetic site I apologize. I didn’t see anything anti semetic there when I read it prior to posting.

  259. Yeah… Okay…

    To Kwais and Jtuf I apologize (my first Yom Kippur pennance).

  260. Warty, Twain wrote quite a bit Concerning the Jews

    Oh, only for the good, nice, peace loving people of the board, check my handle for how to get a free download of John’s new book. It has a Libertarian marriage PLUS Iran gets their ass kicked!

  261. If you read between the lines

    The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind.

    you’ll see that Mark Twain was all for the Jews burning Palestinian babies with willy peter.

    In all seriousness, I blame many for the imbroglio. Not necessarily in order nor all inclusive, the Palestinians, the Jews, the Arab states, England, the UN, the League of Nations, the Russians, the US, et al all bear some responsibility.

    That said, reality indicates it is up to the Israelis and the Palestinians to solve it.

    The Palestinian right to return is a pipe dream. As is Greater Israel. Recognizing those two facts would go a long way towards enabling honest negotiations between the two sides.

  262. In all seriousness, I blame many for the imbroglio. Not necessarily in order nor all inclusive, the Palestinians, the Jews, the Arab states, England, the UN, the League of Nations, the Russians, the US, et al all bear some responsibility.

    You forgot Canada.

  263. free download of John’s new book

    Free: oft-indicating something shitty with regards to product.

  264. You forgot Canada.

    Except for Alberta clippers and Don Cherry, Canada bears no fault for anything bad in the world.

  265. zoltan,

    It isn’t free to everybody. Since you already don’t like it, don’t waste the bandwidth.

    J sub D,

    Canada was a potential location for an Israeli homeland and they refused. Plus, South Park is never wrong.

  266. “I’m not sure what the logical argument is for the Palestinians being “entitled” to have their own country in the first place”

    Maybe because they had lived there for centuries? Jordan “creating” a homeland many miles away from where these people actually live would not be the answer.

    “Israel has no obligation to fund the PA, just as New York has no obligation to fund New Jersey”

    If New York had pushed the people off their land in New York into New Jersey and then ruled them for decades at gunpoint they would indeed have an obligation to NJ…

    “Israel hasn’t had a redevelopment project in the West Bank for decades”

    WTF are you talking about? Are you saying there have been no settlements in decades? That’s nuts.

    “No, just like I know that not every German was a murderous thug in the 1940’s.”

    And we didn’t occupy Germany for decades and build American settlements there. In fact, we worked our asses off to get them autonomous asap. Note the difference.

  267. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Debate_on_the_settlements

    jtuf
    Your assertion that no settlements have been built in decades, only add-on rooms is either remarkably stupid/crazy or remarkably dishonest. As you use it to lob ye ol’ Anti-Semitism charge (people who are against settlements are against Jews having a roof) I suspect the latter…

  268. J sub D
    Don’t give up on a just peace in the Middle East. I mean, if the Lions can win a game, then anything can happen!

  269. Ironically, on a ‘brown’ website – Sepia Mutiny – there was a debate where a bunch of muslims decried Obama for appointing Rahm Emmanuel to his current position. They called it Obama bowing to Israeli interests.

    I’m a Bob Barr/Ron Paul supporter, but I must say that Obama can’t quite catch a break. The right is saying he’s too pro-Palestinian, and the left claims he favors Jewish interest too much. Henry Clay, anyone?

  270. but I must say that Obama can’t quite catch a break.

    There is always hope. Glad to see the change 😉

  271. Underzog,

    d[egenerate], you’re a twisted sickie.

    I don’t call you guys Rh?mites for nothing. You are as sick and twisted as Rh?m’s S.A. was back in the Weimer era.

    Reverse Nazis? Jews who defend against their being murdered are klansmen?

    Take your marijuana and cocaine and go to an Arab country so you don’t infect this country which you hate, too.

    Oh, dear. Where do I begin? I defend “slimy Palestinians” (i.e., children and innocent civilians) against a clearly racist slur and suddenly *I’m* filled with hate. Maybe it’s you who should leave (at least this forum), because defending that kind of bullshit isn’t even remotely libertarian — even calling it neoconservative would be a charitable act.

    Particular Jews defending themselves is one thing; justifying the murder of millions of innocent civilians just because they’re “slimy Palestinians” is, well, racist and, yes, reverse-Nazist.

    So, I reiterate: FUCK OFF!

  272. Why do we still say ‘Palestinian’ anyway? They are Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and other.

  273. Why do we still say ‘Palestinian’ anyway? They are Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and other.*

    Including the ones who fled “Palestine” in 1947 when their buddies were going to “crush” ‘teh Jewz’.

    *Sorry for quoting myself.

  274. Including the ones who fled “Palestine” in 1947 when their buddies were going to “crush” ‘teh Jewz’.

    I read in the Old Testament that Israel is forbidden to oppress Egyptians lawfully residing or sojourning through its territory.

  275. I read in the Old Testament that Israel is forbidden to oppress Egyptians lawfully residing or sojourning through its territory.

    Was that by G_d, or by the Egyptians who now say the Jews were hired help, not slaves?

  276. That said, reality indicates it is up to the Israelis and the Palestinians to solve it.

    J sub D is right, both in the above quote and the one that preceded it.

    The thing we need to keep in mind is that like in so many other matters, our government can’t fucking fix this, and should not try to.

    We shouldn’t be messing with the internal affairs of other nations, and we sure as hell shouldn’t be paying for their weapons.

    Have you ever seen a couple go to counseling when it was obvious they both wanted to keep cheating on each other? Diplomacy won’t work unless both sides want it to, and there are clearly strong (if small) minorities on both sides who just want to go on killing. Until each side tames that faction, talking is pointless.

  277. Why do we still say ‘Palestinian’ anyway? They are Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and other.

    Not according to the immigration agents of Egypt, Jordan, or Syria. Maybe you could get LoneMeshuginah to intervene in their behalf.

  278. MNG | September 27, 2009, 7:46pm | #
    “I’m not sure what the logical argument is for the Palestinians being “entitled” to have their own country in the first place”

    Maybe because they had lived there for centuries? Jordan “creating” a homeland many miles away from where these people actually live would not be the answer.

    Jews moved to Safed 500 years ago, but you reject their claim to a homeland there. MGN, your arguments are not very convincing when you only apply your rationals to one side.

  279. MNG | September 27, 2009, 7:53pm | #

    Wikipedia is not a good source of information on Israel.

  280. MNG | September 27, 2009, 7:46pm | #

    If New York had pushed the people off their land in New York into New Jersey and then ruled them for decades at gunpoint they would indeed have an obligation to NJ…

    I agree that the Arab states do owe compensation to the Jews Indigenoust to the Middle East and North Africa.

  281. BakedPenguin | September 28, 2009, 1:09am | #

    Why do we still say ‘Palestinian’ anyway? They are Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and other.

    Not according to the immigration agents of Egypt, Jordan, or Syria. Maybe you could get LoneMeshuginah to intervene in their behalf.

    Before 1900, Jews living in Israel were called “Palestinian”. This changes by 1950. I’m not sure why it changed.

    Via the New York Times Archive

    THE FEAST OF PASSOVER.; Will Be Ushered In at Sundown This Evening, and Will Continue for Eight Days.
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    April 6, 1898, Wednesday

    Page 12, 1080 words

    The Jewish Passover, or the Feast of Unleavened Bread, will be ushered in at sundown to-day. It will be universally observed by orthodox Jews for eight days and by their reformed and Palestinian brethren for seven days. With the former, however, only the first and last two days are actual holidays, and with the latter only the first and last, the intervening days being only semi-festivals, on which all manner of work may be performed.

  282. “Why do we still say ‘Palestinian’ anyway? They are Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and other.”

    We call them Palestinians because they lived in what was called Palestine. They did not live in the parts of what was called Palestine which were declared to be the nations of Lebanon, Jordan and Syria.

    “Jews moved to Safed 500 years ago, but you reject their claim to a homeland there. MGN, your arguments are not very convincing when you only apply your rationals to one side.”

    Yeah jtuf, I’m sure you’d agree that Isreal’s borders should contain only those areas which were majority Jewish in 1948, or which had jewish populations for hundreds of years in 1948. You’re being dishonest again. There were Jews living in Palestine for many years just like there were Palestinians living there for hundreds of years; the former were a decided minority though. Fail.

    “Wikipedia is not a good source of information on Israel.”

    It’s good enough to expose the absurd claim of yours, that I note you don’t even try to back up now, that all settlement activity was just adding of rooms onto existing housing. That was a stupid overplay for you.

  283. I disagree with your plan, because I support free speech.

    Does calling us goatfuckers who want Jews dead or calling us drug addicts who support terrorism seem reasonable to you, jtuf?

    Yeah, bro, I’m totally against free speech. >_> I fucking hate it. Lock everybody up and let the deity of your choice sort ’em out.

    If you can’t see that Mr. Underzog is consumed by this one single issue beyond hope of reason or rational debate, then you probably are, as well. By his own admission he comes here trolling and parodying and attention-whoring every time someone whispers the word “Israel.” If it’s an act, it’s a damn good one. If it’s not, it’s sad and frightening.

  284. Nooge
    Underzog is just pretending dude. I’d be willing to bet he’s an actual anti-Semite trying to discredit Israel supporters. I stopped debating him when he overplayed his hand and urged that Iran be nuked.

  285. The idea that the U.S. ought to take sides in the Middle East is absurd. Israel represents a last vestige of colonialism. The Arabs had lived in Palestine for 1,300 years before 1948. Under no circumstances was it right to displace them because of crimes comitted by Germans.

    But that aside, what’s important to the U.S. in the Middle East is American interests. Our only real interest in the region is to keep the oil flowing, preferably at a reasonable price. Israel does nothing for us in this regard.

    It was one thing for libertarians to stand against the Nazis and Communists who threatened our freedom. The idea that American influence, money, and possibly blood should be devoted to preserving a little state in a far-off region is in no way libertarian, rather it smacks of Wilsonianism and other neo-imperialisms that have emerged from both the Democratic and Republican parties since Wilson’s time.

    The author of this piece is a conservative, or a neocon, but no libertarian. He’d fit in well at a barbeque at W’s ranch.

  286. Was that by G_d, or by the Egyptians who now say the Jews were hired help, not slaves?

    By God, of course.

    The Arabs had lived in Palestine for 1,300 years before 1948. Under no circumstances was it right to displace them because of crimes comitted by Germans.

    The Turks should not have lost the war then.

  287. Yea, maybe the likes of David Duke and George Wallace may have made some noice.

    I’ll give you David Duke, but do you have any evidence that George Wallace was anti-Semitic? I’m looking at Stephan Lesher’s “George Wallace: American Populist,” and reading stuff like “Wallace also emulated Folsom by cultivating relationships in Montgomery’s small but financially secure (and, in terms of political contributions, generous) Jewish community.”

  288. MNG | September 28, 2009, 7:52am | #

    “Why do we still say ‘Palestinian’ anyway? They are Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and other.”

    We call them Palestinians because they lived in what was called Palestine. They did not live in the parts of what was called Palestine which were declared to be the nations of Lebanon, Jordan and Syria.

    Actually, before 1967, the West Bank was called Jordan and Gaza was called Egypt.

  289. MNG | September 28, 2009, 7:52am | #

    “Jews moved to Safed 500 years ago, but you reject their claim to a homeland there. MGN, your arguments are not very convincing when you only apply your rationals to one side.”

    Yeah jtuf, I’m sure you’d agree that Isreal’s borders should contain only those areas which were majority Jewish in 1948, or which had jewish populations for hundreds of years in 1948. You’re being dishonest again. There were Jews living in Palestine for many years just like there were Palestinians living there for hundreds of years; the former were a decided minority though. Fail.

    Are you disputing that Jews from Spain moved to Safed 500 years ago, or do you just accuse all your debate opponents of dishonesty as a matter of course?

  290. MNG | September 28, 2009, 7:52am | #

    “Wikipedia is not a good source of information on Israel.”

    It’s good enough to expose the absurd claim of yours, that I note you don’t even try to back up now, that all settlement activity was just adding of rooms onto existing housing. That was a stupid overplay for you.

    So we are at an impasse about the reliability of wikipedia articles on Israel. Do you think the Jerusalem Post is a reliable source of information? Hopefully, we can find a mutually agreed upon source of information so we can settle this dispute.

  291. Nooge | September 28, 2009, 8:20am | #

    I disagree with your plan, because I support free speech.

    Does calling us goatfuckers who want Jews dead or calling us drug addicts who support terrorism seem reasonable to you, jtuf?

    Yeah, bro, I’m totally against free speech. >_> I fucking hate it. Lock everybody up and let the deity of your choice sort ’em out.

    No, it does not seem reasonable. Free speech gives people the right to make unreasonable comments without being locked up for it.

  292. Jon Harrison, Israel is the original homeland of the Jews. It resembles Liberia. In both cases, an oppressed people returned to their homeland to establish a country.

  293. The “Libertarian Guy” isn’t a libertarian. I wish he would change his handle. He thinks the government has the right to put you in jail for trying to have sex with imaginary people.

  294. No fucking shit, jtuf. You need a an internet-compatible sarcasm monitor.

  295. Nooge
    Underzog is just pretending dude. I’d be willing to bet he’s an actual anti-Semite trying to discredit Israel supporters. I stopped debating him when he overplayed his hand and urged that Iran be nuked.

    I hope you’re right.

  296. Is this a Libertarian site? We have no business interfering in the affairs of other nations. Our government has no constitutionally granted authority to defend nations other than the U.S. I’m so tired of the dialog about Israel starting with the assumption that we have an obligation to them – we don’t. I am no lover of the Palestinians – they are pathetic and barbaric imbeciles who’ve shown themselves incapable of organizing their own society, but we don’t have any need to get involved in their affairs either. Moreover, with our collapsing economy we can hardly afford to continue to send the Israelis 15 billion per year or another billion or so to the Palestinians. Finally, if Reason turns into another ‘conservative’ talking points platform it will lose lots of readers like me who want Libertarian government – not more of the likes of GW Bush, McCain or Bob Dole.

  297. Yes, poor little Israel, just sitting there minding her own business, and these damn crazy A-rabs won’t leave her alone–because they hate Jews, of course. Just like they attacked us on 9/11 because they hate freedom. My favorite part is the bit about how the Palestinians can’t be occupied because there’s no state of Palestine. I’m sure the residents of Gaza, living in a virtual concentration camp, will be relieved to hear this. The comedian Billy Kristol couldn’t have written this better himself.

  298. Actually, before 1967, the West Bank was called Jordan and Gaza was called Egypt.

    And now, neither Egypt or Jordan want them back.

  299. Yes, poor little Israel, just sitting there minding her own business, and these damn crazy A-rabs won’t leave her alone–because they hate Jews, of course. Just like they attacked us on 9/11 because they hate freedom. My favorite part is the bit about how the Palestinians can’t be occupied because there’s no state of Palestine.

    At long last, someone who understands.

    I’m sure the residents of Gaza, living in a virtual concentration camp, will be relieved to hear this. The comedian Billy Kristol couldn’t have written this better himself.

    Exactly! A concentration camp of their own making. Billy Kristol could write the parts for killing their next-door-neighbors for not being Hamas-enough.

  300. “At long last, someone who understands.”

    Well, yes. Thank you.

    “Exactly! A concentration camp of their own making. Billy Kristol could write the parts for killing their next-door-neighbors for not being Hamas-enough.”

    Let’s see if I follow you: 1) Because a people don’t submit passively to being occupied by a hostile army, they deserve to be penned up and slaughtered like animals (I suppose they bombed themselves and blocked relief supplies from reaching themselves, too, during the war on Gaza). 2) Because there is a minority of extremists among a population (who might just have a legitimate grievance, but never mind that), they’re all extremists and thus deserve to be penned up and slaughtered like animals.

    This is fun. Any other neat rationalizations for oppression and mass murder?

    1. Actually, Hamas took relief supplies and reserved them for their political allies. Hamas also produced children’s TV programs that encourage killing Jews.

  301. This is fun. Any other neat rationalizations for oppression and mass murder?

    How about the fact that the Jews were the Palestinians before there was such a thing as a Palestinian? How about the fact that “Palestine” itself is an “occupationist entity”, first established by the Romans, then exacerbated by the Arabs? How about the fact that if Arabs have the right to “resist 60 years of occupation and apartheid”, then Jews have the right to resist 2000 years of occupation and apartheid?

    On the other side of the equation, how about the fact that both Fatah and Hamas are responsible for (and if not openly endorse) forced conversions, execution of homosexuals, marrying mosque and state by instituting Sharia law in part (if not in whole), and stealing from the mouths of those in their care by pocketing the aid money and supplies meant to be given directly to them and using them to fund their Swiss bank accounts and slaughter non-combatants (both Arab and Jewish) in their military actions against Israel?

    Not only is Palestinian Nationalism is a self-defeating ideology (the “resistence to occupation” argument cuts both ways), it stands at the very opposite extreme of the ideals Libertarianism and basic human decency hold. While the Israelis aren’t necessarily the “light unto the Goyim” they claim to be, that’s no excuse for supporting seventh-century barbarism…

  302. Joe H,

    I don’t support 7th-century barbarism. I’m opposed to all barbarism, including the 21st-century kind practiced by the Israeli military. Nor do I support Hamas or Fatah. Like all political-governmental entities, I have no doubt they’re corrupt criminal gangs, whose main victims are the people they claim to represent. Nothing shocking here. My gripe with this article, and the comments by suki, is the implication that Israel is somehow the innocent victim and deserves unquestioned support and a free pass in dealing with the Palestinians. Israel is clearly the dominant power in the area and has been for a long time, and it apparently has no intention of stopping the expansion of settlements or allowing the Palestinians to have real political autonomy.

    “Not only is Palestinian Nationalism is a self-defeating ideology (the “resistence to occupation” argument cuts both ways), it stands at the very opposite extreme of the ideals Libertarianism and basic human decency hold.”

    This sentence would be just as valid if you replaced “Palestinian Nationalism” with “Zionism.”

  303. My gripe with this article, and the comments by suki, is the implication that Israel is somehow the innocent victim and deserves unquestioned support and a free pass in dealing with the Palestinians.

    I agree with you, but I would also add that most of those who hold these views also hold unquestioned support for Palestinian terror (which I, and many others, define as the intentional, targeted killing of non-combatants) and either openly support “throwing al-Yahood into the sea” or insist that Israel allow millions of Arabs to flood into its borders and vote the only Jewish state out of existence (as opposed to the RoR being enacted by a future Palestinian state).

    [Israel] apparently has no intention of stopping the expansion of settlements or allowing the Palestinians to have real political autonomy.

    That depends on what you define as a “settlement”. To Israelis and Americans, Jerusalem is not a settlement, but to Europeans, half of the city is. To the majority of Palestinians and Muslims, even Tel Aviv is a settlement.

    To date, there is only one political party in Israel that rejects the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, Ichud Leumi. They are far from being a dominant political party (only holding 4 seats in the Knesset), nor are they part of any coalition.

    Contrary to what you believe, there is a strong desire for Israel to leave the West Bank. Not only is it a continual drain on a cash-strapped budget, it provides a convenient solution to the “demographic time bomb” often talked about. What Likud and Israel Beiteinu (the two major parties of the ruling coalition) are discussing is trading Jewish settlements beyond the Green Line for the Wadi Ara region within the Green Line as opposed to sticking with the ’67 borders (an arbitrary border which doesn’t reflect demographic realities on the ground). The Republicrats, however, are more interested in shoving their solution down everyone’s throats (and the Arabs are more interested in seeing more Jews kicked out of their homes) than they are in discussing viable solutions.

    “Not only is Palestinian Nationalism is a self-defeating ideology (the “resistence to occupation” argument cuts both ways), it stands at the very opposite extreme of the ideals Libertarianism and basic human decency hold.”

    This sentence would be just as valid if you replaced “Palestinian Nationalism” with “Zionism.”

    Nice try, but no cigar. Mainstream Zionism doesn’t seek to reestablish the Sanhedrin and institute a Halakhic state like mainstream Palestinian Nationalism seeks to reestablish the Caliphate and a Sharia state. Israel offers all its citizens greater civil liberties than even the United States does. On the economic front, Israel can do a bit more to relax economic freedoms, but with Likud holding the reigns for time being, there’s a good chance we’ll see a shift in this direction occur in the near future.

    1. “I agree with you, but I would also add that most of those who hold these views also hold unquestioned support for Palestinian terror?”

      Well, as I said before, I don’t support Palestinian terror. I wouldn’t even say I support “the Palestinian cause,” whatever that means (especially insofar as it includes Sharia law and throwing the Jews into the sea). It’s more that I oppose the oppression, by the *state of Israel*, of the people who live in the “Palestinian territories.”

      “That depends on what you define as a “settlement”.”

      I’m talking about the settlements in the currently contested areas. Yes, I’m sure there are fanatics on the Palestinian side who view the entire state of Israel as a settlement, but I doubt your assertion that that’s a mainstream view. That smacks of a rationalization for the continued colonization of the Palestinian territories?”You see, these people are just unreasonable. There’s no point in negotiating with them.”

      “Contrary to what you believe, there is a strong desire for Israel to leave the West Bank.”

      A strong desire among whom? The average Israeli? I’ll buy that. But among the political class? I doubt it. Yeah, there may be only one party in Israel that explicitly rejects a Palestinian state, but that doesn’t mean that the other parties have any intention whatsoever of allowing it to happen. If you believe the polls, there’s strong opposition among Americans to the ongoing occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Do you think we’re going to pull out of either anytime soon?

      “Nice try, but no cigar.”

      I suspect Zionism is a fairly radical view held by a small minority of the Israeli population but which nevertheless has a disproportionate amount of influence on the ruling class. Here’s Uri Avnery (from an article at antiwar.com) on Zionism:

      “The inherent aim of the Zionist enterprise was and is to turn the country ? at least up to the Jordan River ? into a homogeneous Jewish state. Throughout the course of Zionist-Israeli history, this aim has not been forsaken for a moment. Every cell of the Israeli organism contains this genetic code and therefore acts accordingly, without the need for a specific directive.”

  304. Nice piece of zionist trash – a good job of reason’s ‘libertarians’.

  305. @jewbama reports that extremist Jew Eliyokum Hakohen refers to US President Barack Obama as “black anti-semetic idiot” http://tinyurl.com/yzvre94

  306. My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I’m sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane. Even some cursory knowledge of Hebrew and doing some mathematics and logic will tell you that you really won’t get the full deal by just doing regular skill english reading for those books. In other words, there’s more to the books of the Bible than most will ever grasp. I’m not concerned that Mr. Crumb will go to hell or anything crazy like that! It’s just that he, like many types of religionists, seems to take it literally, take it straight…the Bible’s books were not written by straight laced divinity students in 3 piece suits who white wash religious beliefs as if God made them with clothes on…the Bible’s books were written by people with very different mindsets…in order to really get the Books of the Bible, you have to cultivate such a mindset, it’s literally a labyrinth, that’s no joke

  307. My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I’m sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane. Even some cursory knowledge of Hebrew and doing some mathematics and logic will tell you that you really won’t get the full deal by just doing regular skill english reading for those books. In other words, there’s more to the books of the Bible than most will ever grasp. I’m not concerned that Mr. Crumb will go to hell or anything crazy like that! It’s just that he, like many types of religionists, seems to take it literally, take it straight…the Bible’s books were not written by straight laced divinity students in 3 piece suits who white wash religious beliefs as if God made them with clothes on…the Bible’s books were written by people with very different mindsets..

  308. My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I’m sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane.

  309. Nice piece of zionist trash – a good job of reason’s ‘libertarians’.

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