Show Me a Country Without Lawyers, Hobos and Fighting Politicians and I'll Show You a Dictatorship

As the healing begins after these terrifying three days when the words "You Lie" held America hostage, let's round up a parliamentary-procedure control group to see how Yankee decorum stacks up against international standards:

Korea.

United Kingdom.

Ukraine.

Taiwan.

Russia.

United Kingdom.

Taiwan highlight reel with great song. Highly recommended.

Comments

[mk]

Taiwan wins by a landslide. I kind of wanted to join in the fun.

[Kyle Jordan]

Thus proving that here in America, there's really only one party. "Republican", "Democrat" it doesn't matter. They're all big government bozos that have absolutely no interest in helping people or trying to do good. All they want is power.

[Andrew]

What? No woodcuts of Rep. Preston Brooks (D-SC)?

[Bingo]

I still think duels are due for a resurgence. We probably wouldn't even need to implement term limits!

[mtc]

i was gonna say, there was the one guy who beat some other guy into a bloody pulp with a cane back in the 1800's. i guess that was Rep. Preston Brooks Andrew was refering to.

[Paul]

Those shin-kickers and their taikwon-slappy face legislators in Korea? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeit, with one hand behind my back. Now, those corn-fed farm boys from the Ukraine? That's another story.

[ron]

fuck yeah the song over the taiwan one is wong fei hung's theme song. ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA MOTHERFUCKERS!

[Andrew]

mtc -- Yep. Sen. Charles Sumner (R-MA) was the canee. I always think of those two whenever the talking heads bring up the declining civility in politics schtick.

[Schempf]

I will go to bed with happy dreams of a congress where I have free reign on barbara boxer and nancy polisi - sweet dreams!

[Jay Dubs]

So a strong, vibrant democracy requires a strong a vibrant government? 😉

Why did that Tony Blair clip make the cut? That was a reasonable debate by parliamentary standards, nothing like Wilson's unprecedented and rude interruption of Obama's speech.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

NTL, those Koreans are a bunch of pussies. That wouldn't even make a good mosh pit.

[You lie, 0bots!]

Why did that Tony Blair clip make the cut? That was a reasonable debate by parliamentary standards, nothing like Wilson's unprecedented and rude interruption of Obama's speech.

Unprecedented? If you really believe that, you're an idiot, and if you're just trying to spoof somebody who really believes that, you're trying too hard.

Here's a precedent, beyatches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mqSXsNJzRM

0 was in the front row, by the way.

Here's another precedent.

[Hacha Cha]

Rep. Brooks wanted to duel Rep. Sumner but was told by Rep. Keitt that dueling was for people that were of the same social class and that Sumner was equivalent to a drunk. Brooks beat the Sumner over the head with his cane, trapping him under a desk bolted to the floor. Sumner ripped the desk from the floor, at this point he was blind from the blood gushing from his head. he staggered up the aisle.some senators attempted to come to Sumner's aid but Rep. Keitt brandished a pistol and yelled "let them be!" Brooks continued beating Sumner till his cane broke, at which point he quietly exited the chamber.
wow

[Hacha Cha]

wow, check out the other congressional brawl Keitt was involved in:
Keitt started a massive brawl on the House floor during a tense late-night fillibuster. Keitt, objecting to an argument from Pennsylvania Congressman (and later Speaker of the House) Galusha A. Grow, dismissively demanded that Grow sit down, calling him a "black Republican puppy". Grow responded by telling Keitt that "No negro-driver shall crack his whip over me." Keitt became enraged and went for Grow's throat, shouting that he would "choke him for that". A large brawl involving two dozen representatives erupted on the House floor, ending only when a missed punch from Rep. Cadwallader Washburn of Illinois upended the hairpiece of Rep. William Barksdale of Mississippi.

[Hacha Cha]

so what other fights have happened in the US congress?

[Bruce]

March! Freedom Plaza 9 am 11th and Pennsylvania Avenue NW. Tonight: Rock Bottom Restaurant and Brewery, 4238 Wilson Blvd #1256, Arlington. Ph 703 516 7688. We will have the Back Room Bar. Everyone pays for their own food and drinks

[MNG]

I just saw the "you lie" clip yesterday (hey, big project at work, no time to be a citizen).

So I think it was rude and oafish to yell out during the speech. But as one of the resident H&R House Liberals I have to say this: at the time Wilson did this Obama was essentially calling his critics liars. So essentially it was like this:

Obama: "You know, my critics are telling lies, they are liars. One thing they are lying about is that my plan will cover illegal immigrants."
Critic: "You lie!"

So it seems much less egregious to me in that light.

[Seward]

MNG,

Well, basically there is no way this can be structured so that it will not cover some portion of the illegal alien population. Unless of course we go the route of a very robust national I.D., but even then you will have leakage. So as a practical matter it will cover illegal aliens, even if as a matter of law it doesn't.

One of the main reasons to oppose government run anything is the sorts of efforts which have to be undertaken to enforce, parcel out, etc. whatever that government run thing is.

FYI: I am for open borders.

[Xeones]

But as one of the resident H&R House Liberals

You lie. We make y'all sleep in the yard.

[hmm]

I'm telling you. A caning would have been awesome.

That's something I have never liked about the bully pulpit. The President should have to counter points or answer to criticism every time he speaks to the Congress.

[@]

Congress ought at least to be able to say "Harrumph!" from time to time.

[Xeones]

Of course, hmm, that would require a Congress whose members are capable of the occasional salient point.

[John]

Good for you MNG for admitting the obvious. You make a much better house liberal than Joe who would have been on here claiming that it was the most outragous act ever committed in Congress.

I would hope that at least some of Obama's supporters would be bothered by his smug attitude and habbit of painting everyone who disagrees with him as having bad motives. It is bad for the country for any President to act like that.

[John]

Also, I am disapointed in Wilson for apologizeing. He should have told the media to fuck off. Last I looked this is still a free country and the Obama is neither a God nor a King.

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

I'm getting tired of this sycophantic king-worshipping thing people have going. If you want strict decorum, mandatory respect and obesiance to a figurehead, go to Europe.

[Rich]

Taiwan wins by a landslide. I kind of wanted to join in the fun.

I agree. But "Taiwan on" first! 😉

[jester]

Banana pudding! Banana Pudding!

[Abe]

I still think duels are due for a resurgence.

How about cow dung at five paces?

Nice historical note here.

[Jaosn WOods]

I dunno dude, a country without bottom feeding, blood sucking lawyers sounds pretty good!

RT
http://www.anon-tools.vze.com

[jester]

-Your arm is off.
-No it isn't.
-Then what's that?
-I've had worse.
-YOU LIE!

[MNG]

Don't get me wrong, it was oafish for Wilson to shout "you lie" as Obama had the floor, and his apology was in order. It's just common civility. But having said that, it's astonishing how many of my liberal friends miss that Obama was explicitly accusing his critics of lying when this all went down. In the speech he talked about civility, but certainly he could have approached the matter in a much more civil way than he did.

Seward
I see your point and your broader point as well. Of course whenever you create any government benefit there is this chance that people who are not supposed to get it might find a way to actually get it. But I still that makes the assertion "this plan 'covers' illegal aliens" a misleading assertion. As I understand it explicitly does not cover them in the normal sense of the word.

[Warren]

"You lie" should be the mantra taken up by the crowd whenever a politician gives a speech. It's a pity Wilson backpedaled.

[Neu Mejican]

John,

'Twas rude, certainly, but more importantly, it was politically clumsy. The apology comes because the rest of the party realized that Republicans and their position would be hurt more by the outburst than Obama. Particularly during a speech that was nominally about "getting past the bickering." The apology mitigates that a bit (although Obama gets some points for "graciously" accepting the apology, so it was a lose-lose for Wilson no matter what).

At least he wasn't twittering.

[John]

"Particularly during a speech that was nominally about "getting past the bickering."

No. It was a speech that called policy disagrements "bickering" and "game playing". You may enjoy the taste of Obama's cock but some of the rest of us don't. It was absolutely outragous the things that asshole said in that speech. What he was saying was everyone needs to shut up and do what I tell them. Get past bickering my ass. I would have done the same thing Wilson did and walked out. It would be one thing if Obama were actually interested in having a debate and finding common ground. But he is not. He is interested in marginalizing anyone who disagrees with him and shoving whatever he wants down the country's throat. You should be a ashamed of yourself for agreeing with him and finding the one guy who had the balls to stand up and call bullshit in the wrong.

[John]

"As I understand it explicitly does not cover them in the normal sense of the word."

1. It has no enforcmeent mechanism.

2. Courts have consistently ruled that you can't discriminate against illegals for things like public schools and benefits. So, the Dems know full well that the courts will make the program cover illegals and that it doesn't matter what the plan says. They are lying.

[JW]

Don't get me wrong, it was oafish for Wilson to shout "you lie" as Obama had the floor, and his apology was in order. It's just common civility. But having said that, it's astonishing how many of my liberal friends miss that Obama was explicitly accusing his critics of lying when this all went down. In the speech he talked about civility, but certainly he could have approached the matter in a much more civil way than he did.

Who are you and what have you done with MNG!?

[Neu Mejican]

John,

Cute outburst of your own.

Here is what Obama said:
Well the time for bickering is over. The time for games has passed. Now is the season for action. Now is when we must bring the best ideas of both parties together, and show the American people that we can still do what we were sent here to do.

In that context, only a sucker would be the one to step up and try to look like the bickerer.

[MNG]

John
It's bizarre to see it as covering illegals.

Covering illegals would mean language like "illegals qualify for benefits under this program." Language like this "illegals do not qualify for benefits under this program" but with no explicit enforcement mechanism created elsewhere in the language is simply not the same as "covering."

[MNG]

"Courts have consistently ruled that you can't discriminate against illegals for things like public schools and benefits. So, the Dems know full well that the courts will make the program cover illegals and that it doesn't matter what the plan says. They are lying."

Well, according to this logic it would be impossible to create any such benefit for the American people without also having the courts later make it for illegals too, so you kind of have a nonfalsifiable charge against any benefit whatsoever.

[Some Guy]

I, for one, would love to see Barney Frank and John Boehner get into a knife fight.

[MNG]

""You lie" should be the mantra taken up by the crowd whenever a politician gives a speech."

This would make you and your side look like assholes. It would have this effect because it would, in fact, be an asshole thing to do. When someone else is speaking to shout "you lie" at them is considered by normal sane people to be an asshole thing to do.

I mean really, does anyone think there should be a general principle of shouting at any speaker who you disagree with or think is not telling it straight?

[Neu Mejican]

2. Courts have consistently ruled that you can't discriminate against illegals for things like public schools and benefits. So, the Dems know full well that the courts will make the program cover illegals and that it doesn't matter what the plan says. They are lying.

The public schools case pointed out that the kids don't have a choice regarding their parents actions, so there may be precedent for children to get coverage, but I would need you to point me to where the courts have "consistently ruled" that adult illegals would get cash benefits or their equivalent.

[Suki]

I wonder why the Korean Parliament Catfight was first? 😉

Suki likes.

[John]

"The public schools case pointed out that the kids don't have a choice regarding their parents actions, so there may be precedent for children to get coverage, but I would need you to point me to where the courts have "consistently ruled" that adult illegals would get cash benefits or their equivalent."

And the same logic applies here. So at the very least we will be covering the children of illegal aliens.

"Well, according to this logic it would be impossible to create any such benefit for the American people without also having the courts later make it for illegals too, so you kind of have a nonfalsifiable charge against any benefit whatsoever."

The courts have pretty much made it that way. It is very difficult to discriminate against people on the basis of immigration status. So, whenever you propose a government benefit, you ought to be honest enough to admit illegals are going to get that benefit.

[Neu Mejican]

HR 3200

"IN GENERAL- For purposes of this division, the term 'affordable credit eligible individual' means, subject to subsection (b), an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States"

"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

[MNG]

Well John, currently the GOP is doing backflips defending Medicare.

By your logic illegals will get those benefits.

Shouldn't the GOP be out there admitting this loudly?

[Neu Mejican]

And the same logic applies here. So at the very least we will be covering the children of illegal aliens.

Even here, I am not sure that follows.
Children wouldn't be directly getting the credits since they are not the ones that would be paying for the health care, their parents would...and the law explicitly states that they are not eligible.

[Joe M]

Well, you know, as for all of this illegals covered or no covered business, um, aren't illegals not supposed to be here in the first place? And yet, somehow, they are.

sn't it possible they would get coverage under a plan that has not a lot of double checking on the legitimacy of claims? Much like Medicaid, which is jam packed with fraud, due to a federal government that just kinda goes along with whatever is submitted in paperwork.

[John]

Neu Mexican,

No one argues what the bill says. The question is will it actually be enforced that way and will the Courts find the language of the bill excluding illegals constitutional.

"Children wouldn't be directly getting the credits since they are not the ones that would be paying for the health care, their parents would...and the law explicitly states that they are not eligible."

Children don't enroll themselves in school or sue for the right to go to school, their parents do. The parents would just sue for the right to enroll their childen in the plan.

[Neu Mejican]

Joe M,

Indeed. But, I have to agree with MNG. If the law says "illegals are not covered" then the law doesn't cover illegals.

[Neu Mejican]

John,

The courts ruling on public schools was based on the fact that the children are the ones getting the education. When you are talking about a cash benefit/subsidy that is much different, it seems.

The kids will get the medical service (at least emergency care) no matter what. But the idea that that means the public will pick up the bill for the parents (who are liable for the service) is a different matter. Public schools are "free," so there is no benefit going to the parent.

No one argues what the bill says.

Joe Wilson did. Not all of us love the taste of his cock as much as you do. =/;^)

[MNG]

John
Then is would be more accurate to say "illegals may find a way to get the benefits offered in this bill" or "courts may rule that illegals have to get the benefits under this bill" than to say "this bill covers illegal aliens."

[Joe M]

I found something interesting:

How did we get such a nice action shot of Joe Wilson?

Almost makes you think it was staged. But, come on, a political stunt, in this country? No way.

[jester]

"in having a debate and finding common ground"

John, you're right that Obama wasn't interested in such. It certainly would have been more presidential of him to simply say: "We've come to a crossroads. May the best man win." or "I have heard the debate and made my choice." But President's rarely act like statesmen, do they? Just like Bush and "If you're not with me".

[jester]

John,

Why are 'illegal aliens' a sticking point for you? I think the whole entire thing sucks. Why must you examine shit under a microscope.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

If you want strict decorum, mandatory respect and obesiance to a figurehead, go to Europe.

Not so much.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

How did we get such a nice action shot of Joe Wilson?

And why does he look so different than he did during the Valerie Plame affair? (Has he had work done? He should sue that plastic surgeon.)

[hmm]

Of course, hmm, that would require a Congress whose members are capable of the occasional salient point.

The point doesn't have to be salient. Just the ability to contradict rather than be preached to while silently sitting and obeying would be enough. The image given by the President addressing Congress while they sit silently like school children and airing the speech on TV so everyone can see it is one of absolute power. People fall for that shit. I don't know how many people think the president can actually control the economy for the better. Although arguably the President can always make it worse.

[jester]

Well said Hon. Hannan.

[JB]

Until OBama apologizes for constantly lying, everyone at every single event of his should shout that he is a liar.

[JB]

'If the law says it doesn't raise the deficit, then it doesn't raise the deficit.'

Shut the Fuck Up, Neu Mejican.

[Neu Mejican]

JB,

You're a cutee (^_^)

[Tulpa]

Covering illegals would mean language like "illegals qualify for benefits under this program." Language like this "illegals do not qualify for benefits under this program" but with no explicit enforcement mechanism created elsewhere in the language is simply not the same as "covering."

Ah. So when the Bush administration initiated the warrantless wiretapping program at NSA, and said they must only listen in on conversations involving people overseas, that means no domestic calls were in danger of being listened to. Because if domestic calls were going to be listened to, Bush would have told the NSA to do just that.

[Neu Mejican]

The better outburst?

"IT HAS NO ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM!!!!"

[Tulpa]

I was wondering how this became a semantic discussion, then I noticed all the "Comment by 'Santa Fe Sophist'" boxes that my comment filter replaces Neu Mejican's comments with. Mystery solved!

[Neu Mejican]

Wow, even when Tulpa filters my comments Tulpa is so obssessed with me that Tulpa feels compelled to make comments about my comments.

[Neu Mejican]

Tulpa is soooo meta.

[jester]

This sounds like a political debate in France. The right: socialism is good as long as we exclude the Africans.
The left: socialism is for everyone including the Africans.

"Yes, immigrants are the number one enemy of the USA. They could be Al-Qaeda. Better yet, Osama is paying coyotes to smuggle foreigners in to destabilize the US through welfare fraud.It couldn't possibly be that they come here looking for work. Only my ancestors had motives that pure."

Gimme a break!

[Tulpa]

The Santa Fe Sophist haunts my dreams.

[jester]

Shows why the Culture Wars are so successful in getting people off topic on what really matters.

[Suki]

Ah, the boys have moved from the locker room and onto the playground.

[Bean Counter]

Re: Korea & Taiwan - Isn't there a single lawmaker in either nation that knows martial arts? Do we need to send Chuck Norris to Seoul to bring the grace and beauty of breaking arms and gouging eyes to the hapless schoolyard fighters of Asian parliaments?

[Tulpa]

How many guesses do I get to figure out who's spoofing me? I think one will do.

[MlR]

I'll take fighting politicians everyday of the week. Not only does it indicate that they actually give a shit about something they're talking about, but the more time they spent fucking with each other, the less time they're fucking us. When the politicians are unanimous on a complex issue, something's wrong, and more than often not they're cooperating at the expense of the taxpayers.

[hmm]

This sounds like a political debate in France.

Isn't political debate in France just a bunch of pissed off people marching with signs, destroying private property, and special interests screaming "We deserve!"

[jester]

Yes, hmm, pretty much. If only we could be like that here in America, instead of doing things like holding town hall meetings were politicians risk their lives facing their constituents who might be stockpiling guns, harboring non-consensus views, or *gasp* speaking in angry tones.

[Suki]

How many guesses do I get to figure out who's spoofing me? I think one will do.

My guess is not Nega. What do I win?

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Considering starting a blog called "Lie Detector" with the motto: "...Because a politician's mouth is open somewhere"

If someone else wants it though, be my guest.

[Tulpa]

I am so smart.
I have spoof-dar.

[Neu Mejican]

So, I find Tulpa's behavior intriguing, really. I can understand the uses of a comment filter. You get to ignore comments by people you have decided you don't want to engage with.

But why bother to comment about the hypothetical content of the comments you are filtering?

Given that Tulpa, pre-comment filter, had a history of arguing with a phantom version of NM that existed only in Tulpa's head, does the filter provide a mechanism for doing that that is pure...without the messy dissonance caused by having to deal with the actual content?

Are the "I don't listen to that guy" comments about trying to create an "in-group/out-group" status ("I hate that guy...who's with me!"), hoping to get ego strokes from others when they say..."yeah, me too. We're so cool. Fuck that guy."

It would be intriguing to study similar behavior in others. Maybe I will send the idea over to some of the Ph.D. students I know in mass media studies that are looking for a dissertation topic.

Tulpa: phatic boasting of filtering behavior in on-line comment boards.

I think they could get a mono-graph out of it.

I don't know who's more interesting in talking about Neu Mejican: Tulpa or Neu Mejican.

[Neu Mejican]

Yeah, sorry about that.
I was just bored while waiting for a download to download.

[TallDave]

I think they should change the law such that politicians are allowed to duel.

No! Wait! Required to duel.

Sort of like term limits, but with better ratings for C-SPAN.

[TallDave]

It's bizarre to see it as covering illegals.

It's bizarre to think illegals are allowed to vote under the Constitution. And yet, somehow, it happens...

[democratsarefascists]

In other words, Obama is a wimp.

I REPEAT: OBAMA IS A WIMP!

Pelosi has more balls than he does.

They're Harry Reid's, you know.

[joshua corning]

The British really are awesome.

Not that they have a better government for it....but the open debate is great.

The Taiwanese is pretty fun...but if my congress started throwing punches at one another by the third or fourth time it turned into that mess I would be looking to emigrate.

[joshua corning]

Why did that Tony Blair clip make the cut? That was a reasonable debate by parliamentary standards, nothing like Wilson's unprecedented and rude interruption of Obama's speech.

huh?

When do you ever see the president openly debate his opposition?

What like 3 times every four years?

Give me a fuking break.

[joshua corning]

I found something interesting:

How did we get such a nice action shot of Joe Wilson?

Almost makes you think it was staged. But, come on, a political stunt, in this country? No way.

Wide angle lens with high resolution digital camera...then crop out everything but Wilson.

Understand?

[jester]

'The British really are awesome.'

The British really are unawesome. They spy on you. Wherever you are. What is awesome about that?

Explain.

[Suki]

The British really are unawesome. They spy on you. Wherever you are. What is awesome about that?

Explain.

Better hurry up and answer before jester sends you to Room 101 or the corn field, or something.

[DoDoGuRu]

Well, according to this logic it would be impossible to create any such benefit for the American people without also having the courts later make it for illegals too, so you kind of have a nonfalsifiable charge against any benefit whatsoever.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

[economist]

I would love to see more fights in Congress. Back in the day I'm sure ol' Ted Kennedy could engage in drunken brawls with the best of them.

[joshua corning]

The British really are unawesome. They spy on you. Wherever you are. What is awesome about that?

What part of "Not that they have a better government for it....but the open debate is great." confused you?

[Lester Hunt]

The last one was the best. I wonder if I can take out Taiwanese citizenship.