I Take Thee to be My Lawful Contractual Partner
But aren't monogamous contracts "unrealistic"? This claim makes no sense. If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their promise, what's "unrealistic" about it? Monogamy is no more unrealistic than hundreds of promises that we expect people to keep - to show up for work on time, buy lunch next time, pay their workers, or give dissatisfied customers their money back. In each instance, if you think the terms are onerous, refuse them. Don't say yes, then blame the fates.
But what about human weakness? Here I take a hard line: Human weakness is a choice, and it should be criticized, not excused. I'm particularly baffled when economists say otherwise. In what economic model is "lots of people feel tempted to do it" a reason to turn a blind eye?
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
A contract for personal services from which one cannot withdraw is peonage and involuntary servitude.
Next argument.
To quote one of the most sensible things Kanye West has ever said: "holla we want pre-nup."
What actually is a 'marriage contract'?
Can I add a clause that says 'refusing to perform sexual services nulls the contract'?
If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their promise, what's "unrealistic" about it? Monogamy is no more unrealistic than hundreds of promises that we expect people to keep - to show up for work on time
Why don't I have marriage vacation days?
JB,
Sexual contract SFW
Too bad a 'marriage contract' isn't a contract in the traditional sense.
I think that if someone sat down at a lawyer's desk, looked through 35 pages of "wills and won'ts", saw the terms and conditions, slept on it for a couple of days and then signed; there would be a lot less of this "divorce" bullshit happening.
Umm, hunting season, fishing season, football season, hockey season and festivus. If you don't use your alloted time, that's your fault, no cash in at the end of service.
Next!
To quote one of the most sensible things Kanye West has ever said: "I love fish sticks, I love putting them in my mouth."
Are you all recovering from hangovers? Why the hell has no one pointed out that this line is total bullshit?
"If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their promise, what's "unrealistic" about it?"
By definition, monogamy explicitly demands fidelity to only one partner over the lifetime of a relationship (or contract, as robot boy calls it). There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that an absence of divorce in all cases equates to an absence of infidelity. In fact, some people are able to stay married only by fucking other people.
Caplan = weird.
Why don't I have marriage vacation days?
You fool! You did not negotiate any vacations before you got married?!! I hope you did not negotiate your compensation from you job so poorly. You should have joined the Spousal Indentured Servant Union, they got me three weeks of marital vacation a year plus a guaranteed 2 blow jobs a week whether I work or not. I am also guaranteed "retirement" after 20 years.
Since the only sensible reason to get married nowadays is for government imposed reasons (tax, health care, child custody), it isn't even a contract, it's a capitulation to the state. If you don't need the stuff you get from the government for doing so, don't do it.
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is the day we are divorced.
At least as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe Cupid's work is inherently too unstable for any explicit or implicit contract. Maybe a husband or wife should have the prerogative of saying "You're fired" as easily as a private-sector employer can.
In that case, JB, have an ironclad pre-nup.
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is the day we are divorced.
Don't bother getting married then.
I kept telling my kids to go for the three-year contract with option to renew. But they wouldn't listen to me.
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is the day we are divorced.
I'm assuming you aren't planning on being the high earner in your marriage. Because when you file for divorce, the assets get split 50/50, and whoever the higher earner is gets cleaned out.
Maybe a husband or wife should have the prerogative of saying "You're fired" as easily as a private-sector employer can.
I did it to my ex-boyfriend. We lived together for 12 years. It wasn't so much "you're fired" as "I can see you're miserable and unproductive in this relationship and I think it's time to call it a day."
"What actually is a 'marriage contract'?"
Another example of Suderman's shit talking.
I understand why there is so much angst against marriage in this culture. I hear about it all the time from friends and co-workers. However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that includes mutual respect, and lots of sex. And don't think because I said that that I'm a newly wed, unless you think 11 years 3 kids in is still new.
In law school, my contracts professor kept saying "breach is good," and that contract law provides specific remedies with the expectation that sometimes contracts will be breached because it is in one's best interests to so. For example, if A agrees to sell his widget to B for $100, but soon after the agreement A sells his widget to C for $150, then A has breached the contract with B. So B buys a widget from D for $120. To compensate B for his extra expense, A pays B $20. B is no worse off than if the contract had been honored, and A is better off (by $30). In other words sometimes it's best to break an agreement and the law provides for that.
As an aside I will say that this monogamy thing is a female, not a male issue. I have yet to know a gay male couple who have been together more than 4-5 years and are still monogamous.
"If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their promise, what's "unrealistic" about it?"
Link? And how exactly do you get accurate numbers, seeing as how people have an incredibly high incentive to lie about sex?
Just pulling numbers out of my ass -- I'm guessing that in the U.S., the real numbers are about 50% of married women remain completely monogamous, and maybe 20% to 40% of men do so.
OK, just googled it, and got this: "If such fountains of scholarship as Alfred Kinsey's famous "reports," Cosmopolitan, and Shere Hite's Hite Report (1987) are to be believed, there's a whole lot of cheating going on in America. In his 1948 and 1953 tomes, Kinsey said that about half the men in his samples, and a quarter of the women, had committed adultery. More recently, Cosmopolitan and Hite came up with even higher figures: Just over half of married women and 72 percent of married men supposedly had done some running around. The apparent truth of the matter is far less lurid, contends Greeley, a University of Chicago sociologist, as well as a Catholic priest and best-selling novelist.
None of the statistics brandished by Kinsey and the pop authorities who followed him were based on a carefully designed, random survey of a cross section of Americans. These "experts" interviewed only selected--and in some cases, self-selected--groups of people willing to talk about their intimate lives."
Among my parent's children, there is a 0% incidence of marital fidelity -- 0 for 5.
But maybe that's just us.
There are no explicit terms spelled out. Therefore I do not view it as a valid contract to be enforced. It should have as much standing as Honey-I-will-paint-the-house-this-weekend contracts.
However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that includes mutual respect, and lots of sex.
You do know that that does not preclude marital infidelity, yeah?
Just saying ...
JB | September 2, 2009, 1:28pm | #
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is the day we are divorced.
At least as far as I'm concerned.
HAHAHAHAHA!
* wipes tears of laughter from eyes *
You do know that having sex without rape requires consent? And that inevitably, your future wife will just not be in the mood because you said something that pissed her off, or she's tired, or some other random event.
I would suggest you make this intention known to anyone you date, so you can remain happily single.
Since the only sensible reason to get married nowadays is for government imposed reasons (tax, health care, child custody), it isn't even a contract, it's a capitulation to the state. If you don't need the stuff you get from the government for doing so, don't do it.
I'm curious, epi -- where do you find these libertarian women who will date you indefinitely and never want to get married, and never break up with you over that?
Because this seems contrary to nearly all the women I've ever met -- though admittedly there may be some sampling bias occurring.
Yeah.... JB's future wife... A guy who spends all his time swearing on the internet is probably beating the ladies off with a stick.
And that inevitably, your future wife will just not be in the mood because you said something that pissed her off, or she's tired, or some other random event.
The occasional good excuse is understandable, but pulling that on an even semi-infrequent basis is total bullshit.
You are probably right on staying single though. Most women I meet don't come anywhere near competing with porn. And I'm not talking about looks. Porn doesn't cry, doesn't whine, doesn't have diseases, etc.
Yeah.... JB's future wife... A guy who spends all his time swearing on the internet is probably beating the ladies off with a stick.
I got called an 8 the other day so w/e.
However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that includes mutual respect, and lots of sex.
Yes, but the sex has to be with each other or else it doesn't count.
Could this post by Suderman be considered a pre-emptive strike in light of his upcoming nuptials?
"And that inevitably, your future wife will just not be in the mood because you said something that pissed her off"
Ten fucking years ago.
"Could this post by Suderman be considered a pre-emptive strike in light of his upcoming nuptials?"
Every Suderman post is about Suderman.
" Porn doesn't cry, doesn't whine, doesn't have diseases, etc."
Imaginary lovers,
Never let you down,
When all the others,
Turn you away,
Thet're around.
Ten fucking years ago.
If you can go that long without pissing your wife off, you're better than I am. I'm doing good to get past 24 hours.
T, I believe he's saying she's still mad about something he said ten years ago.
I've lived with my wife for 25 years this month, married for 23 of that. She brings up shit I did wrong from before we ever met. It's a gift.
FWIW, I get laid as often as she needs me to.
However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that includes mutual respect, and lots of sex. And don't think because I said that that I'm a newly wed, unless you think 11 years 3 kids in is still new.
I'll put the person who posted this is a woman.
All women think their marriages involve lots of sex. Hell, all women think their marriages involve excessive sex. What the other posters are complaining about is that women and men have different definitions of "lots".
Oh no, I used to piss her off all of the time, it's just that she would pull something out of her magic bag of tricks that was ten years old because she knew it would be effective.
Eventually, I threw her out, which she never expected I would do because like any spouse abuser, she controlled the purse strings and as an MBA with a concentration in finance, she set things up so that booting her ass out would trigger financial suicide, which I decided was preferable to shooting her in the head.
But that was twelve years ago and was witout a doubt, the smartest move I have ever made, especially given that I am now quite well off and mortgage/debt free, while she likely now holds a mortgage on her San Francisco home that has her owing more than the property is currently worth (she bought it four years ago).
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
BOOM!
BTW, what really pissed her off at the end was my sister teaching me about not being pulled into a senseless argument. She'd pull something out of her bag of tricks and it no longer produced the reaction she desired. Frustrated the hell out of her.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
BOOM!
(God I love my sister!)
Was married for four years, it was horrible. I was the high earner, but in 2002 with the market collapse and me spending like a drunken Obusha, I was able to get rid of her for a bargan basment price of 15k. Luckily I had bought the house before the marriage and kept it while only having to pay her for the principal paydown. On a 30yr morgage, that was minimal.
Looking back I wonder, is there really any reason to ever get married. If you earn nearlt the same there are major tax consiquences. If one works and the other doesn't the worker is getting taken advantage of. Add to this the hassle of ending it and it rreally seems like a terrible idea.
I got married. I'm still married to the same person. We haven't run around on each other.
It's pretty nice.
You've got to get to them at the right age. 18 is perfect. After they break up with their dumbass high school boyfriend but before they whore their way through college and learn to hate men.
I'm terrified of my wife leaving me/dying before me. I'd have to date some woman my age and they aren't going to fall for my bullshit. And they'll all have ex-husbands and kids. Fuck that shit.
You've got to get to them at the right age. 18 is perfect. After they break up with their dumbass high school boyfriend but before they whore their way through college and learn to hate men.
You can often go a little older. There is a 25 year old near my lake house that married her high school moronic boy friend. They are now divorced and she is just starting the next stage.
I was able to get rid of her for a bargan basment price of 15k."
For me it was more than $80K in 1997 dollars
"I'd have to date some woman my age and they aren't going to fall for my bullshit."
No you won't. I was 42 and the first woman I dated was a cute little blonde senior in college who for some odd reason had a mad crush on me.
She was a bit too clingy so I ended it after about three months. Best head I ever got.
And you work where, Sweetman?
Where'd my URL go???
There is a 25 year old
I've always wondered if there is another sweet spot, like after the first childless marriage. Still have the ex-husband though. And widows probably weep a lot. Maybe a widow who didn't like her husband...
And you work where
Yeah, but then I'd have to raise another one. I'm a kept man, Gunboat. I've become accustomed to a certain lifestyle.
For me it was more than $80K in 1997 dollars
I would have still seen it as worth it. My net worth has exploded in the seven years since the divorce and I don't have to share it with anyone.
Once you enter your high-earning years, it is a good idea buy out any old contracts and refrain from entering new ones until nearing retirement. Thanks to the divorce, I can probably retire in seven years (48).
I've always wondered if there is another sweet spot, like after the first childless marriage. Still have the ex-husband though. And widows probably weep a lot. Maybe a widow who didn't like her husband...
He had an affair with a woman on of all things his navy vessal. He is out of the picture
"I would have still seen it as worth it."
Believe me, I do.
Wrote a little ditty about it:
Everything without you is wonderful,
Everything without you is great,
Everything without you is fantastic,
So glad I scraped you off my plate.
Since we're speaking of Stupid people.
Sorry for the threadjack but well worth it.
Hey, you'd best be prepared to honor your contract with Megan. Many of us are rather fond of her.
Best regards,
--Colin
"Many of us are rather fond of her."
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
Gunny,
Well, I think my wife would disapprove and Peter would be creeped out if I posted 'because I have a huge crush on the much-my-junior blogger to whom you are engaged.'
So, I think I'll stick with "fond" and hope that Peter is as good to her as I think she deserves, with many years of happiness (and mutually-agreed-to fidelity) between them.
--Colin
Colin,
A huge crush? I couldn't pick her out of a line-up if my life depended on it. Good luck with that projection thing.
Gunny,
To pick her out of a lineup, look for the one whose head you can't see because the one-way glass window behind which you're standing doesn't extend that far up!
[For the creeped out who read my comment--or my wife--it was a joke! I find MM's blog to be well-reasoned, interesting, and entertaining. I'm no stalker...and I'm committed to honoring my own marriage contract. 8-]