The Two Sarah Palins
A stupid remark from Sarah Palin about "death panels" run by Obama bureaucrats begets some really stupid responses from America's punditocracy. First up, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen compares the aw-shucks Alaskan to Tailgunner Joe McCarthy. There is much nonsense in the piece (so read the whole thing), but this is a pretty representative sample:
As with McCarthyism, Palinism is a product of its times. McCarthy exploited the public's fear of communism and communists. Not only were they abroad, but they were here in America--spies, fellow travelers, pinkos, apologists, intellectuals and short, bespectacled minorities. It was their very ubiquity and invisibility that made them so dangerous.
Health-care reform provides Palin the same opportunity. The klutziness of Obama's effort--people think they know what they can lose but have no idea of what they can gain--again raises the specter of invisible forces that will take but not give, dictate but not listen, tax but not provide. But as is almost always the case with right-wing populists, the shooter has aimed at her own foot. Palin's "death panel" remarks either killed or helped kill the proposal to offer end-of-life counseling. The victims will be the poor, the uninformed and the ideologically blind who will find themselves unable to make a graceful exit. The affluent have their living wills and such. The poor have only their grief.
Newark Star-Ledger columnist Paul Mulshine says that Palin isn't a McCarthyite…because she's a Luxembourgian socialist!
Liberal critics focused on the fact the proposal in question did not include any such "death panels." But being liberals, they endorsed Palin's central thesis: that Medicare should indeed provide essentially unlimited coverage for Palin's child as well as her parents.
But senior citizens who receive Medicare benefits pay only a fraction of the cost of the coverage, with the bulk coming from the taxpayers. As for Palin's child, she seems to be assuming that his care comes under the Medicare law. That seems unlikely, but if he is indeed covered by it or some other government program, then the entire cost of his treatment is being paid by taxpayers.
Now let us assume that the panel Palin envisions is created and various of her relatives are paraded before it. The panelists would be deciding not whether the relative in question should receive treatment. They would be deciding whether the taxpayers should fund that treatment.
Palin agrees with the liberals that it's evil to deny that payment.
So, dear readers, is Palin a pinko commie or pinko commie hunter? Discuss.
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The victims will be the poor, the uninformed and the ideologically blind who will find themselves unable to make a graceful exit.
This line, just....wow. I'm speechless.
Is there a compelling reason why we should care what she thinks, or care what other people think about what she thinks?
Ah, fuck. The "Merchants of Chaos" ad is a fucking Scientology site. Fuck you, you worthless cult scum.
Mulshine is closer to being right, but he's still wrong.
Under Obamacare, the state can use the insurance exchange and its authority to impose defined benefit plans on insurers to prevent the insurers from selling insurance that defies the will of the "end of life counselors".
So it's not just a matter of whether or not the state will pay for the treatment you get. It's also a matter of whether or not the state will be permitted to declare that you can't pay for insurance for it, either.
strike through16 years agoThe fact that Mrs. Palin keeps popping up in the news cycle is attributable to the left's insistence in keeping her there, regardless of her newsworthiness. She's a valuable villain, a distraction, the face of the fascist Right. Like Nancy Grace's Tot Mom, they just can't let her go. She's an obsession.
So the Palin remark is "stupid." That makes Thomas Sowell stupid, too. Stupid is as stupid does, and Palin is winning this round, not the Hyde Park wizards.
As best I can tell she pisses off just about everyone in both major factions. That's usually how I judge my support. If both the Republican establishment AND the Democrat establishment hate her, we should be buying her a bigger microphone.
Watching the stuffed shirts on both sides crap themselves to explain how such a "stupid" person can dominate the news cycle and shift the tone like no one else is a hoot.
Discuss.
No.
I am sick to death of Sarah Palin. Let her return to the obscurity she so richly merits.
So, dear readers, is Palin a pinko commie or pinko commie hunter? Discuss.
Neither a dessert topping nor a floor polish, Sarah Palin is merely an idiot.
Is there a compelling reason why we should care what she thinks, or care what other people think about what she thinks?
What she thinks is usually what the average politically interested but unideological person thinks, and what people claim to think about what she thinks can help us understand status anxiety and other related psychological problems.
Brett L is exactly right. She took the "death Panel" issue and shoved it Obama's ass. If she was so wrong and so stupid and they are so brilliant, why did they meekly back down on the issue?
Ah, fuck. The "Merchants of Chaos" ad is a fucking Scientology site. Fuck you, you worthless cult scum.
Your invective needs a little more profanity and an insult lobbed at L. Ron Analretentive.
Other than that minor quibble, I wholeheartedly aqgree with the sentiment.
THE URKOBOLD SURE WOULD LIKE TO SEE SARAH PALIN NAKED. PREFERABLY IN A VIDEO MAKING OUT WITH BRISTOL.
As for Palin's child, she seems to be assuming that his care comes under the Medicare law. That seems unlikely, but if he is indeed covered by it or some other government program, then the entire cost of his treatment is being paid by taxpayers.
if she has gotten baby Trig hooked up on social security disability, then he would get medicare with it for a small monthly premium that would be deducted from his monthly benefit. I have no idea if she has gotten Trig on SSD. I am just pointing out that he is eligible to be on medicare.
Once again, this is difficult for most of your leaders to wrap their minds around, but it's possible to not entirely buy into everything she says at the same time as pointing that some bad folks have repeatedly smeared Sarah Palin by lying and misleading about what she's said.
Their failure to understand that is akin to the "birthers" issue, where someone could disavow all Kenya-related topics at the same time as using that issue to discredit the MSM.
Your leaders don't have the intelligence or the integrity to do either, despite it being served up to them like a 10MPH pitch.
The obliviousness of Cohen to why people find the "end-of-life counseling" proposal noxious is impressive. One of the major complaints about health insurance is that the payors look for ways to get you off the rolls when it gets very expensive to keep you alive and that appears to be a that a major motivation behind incentivising doctors to provide end-of-life counseling. Unsuprisingly, when the "reform" involves something that's widely considered a problem with the status quo, people aren't going to be happy with it.
"So, dear readers, is Palin a pinko commie or pinko commie hunter? Discuss."
I don't give two fucks from Thursday.
I vote for pinko commie. However, the central point about "death panels" is this. The health reform is about how to ration care. I've seen no proposals to increase the supply of health care. No easing of IP protection for big pharma...so drug costs will stay high. No easing of licensing restriction for doctors, no increase in the # of tasks that will be allowed to be performed by nurses etc so the labor costs aren't going down.
Read the white papers from Obama's advisors and you see the constant reference to the need to stop spending 80% of the money on end-of-life care or long term illnesses.
They talk about all the methods of rationing except for freeing up government intervention and then letting the price ration the care.
"Death Panel" is a reference to this truth in a short enough soundbite to make it on TV. Democrats mindlessly favor anything Obama does so they demonize anyone and any argument against anything Obama proposes.
They also have a mad hatrid of Sarah Palin and they love to hate her much more than republicans like her...kinda like republicans and Al Sharpton.
How was the "death panel" provision taken out of the bill if it was never there in the first place?
Gabe,
It was a good move on her part. Further, it only resonated because it was true. That is why the Dems are going insane. If Palin really were as dumb as say Joe Biden or Trent Lott, they wouldn't hate her so much.
'If she was so wrong and so stupid and they are so brilliant, why did they meekly back down on the issue?'
Perhaps they expect to slip the end-of-life language back in after the bill passes, once it gets time to write the regulations?
Couldn't be her ability to generate ratings for those for-profit news agencies. It's obviously a leftist conspiracy! After all her mug is plastered on that leftist rag of a channel FOX news a lot more than elsewhere. Jesus is there anything we're not to blame for?
THE URKOBOLD BETS THAT LONEWACKO WOULD LIKE TO SEE PALIN NAKED. . .HOLDING A GUN. . .DEFENDING THE ALASKAN BORDER FROM THE DAMNED RUSSKIES.
"death panel" is superficially stupid, but cuts to the heart of the issue very well.
Like Fluffy said, take the worst-scenario outcome, apply liberally to government programs, and then expect to be disappointed anyway.
"No one ever went broke overestimating the malevolence of government"
How about we focus less on the stupidity of the "VP" candidate who lost the election and more on the stupidity of the "P" candidate who won.
I want to hear about Palin about as much as I want to hear about Kerry....which is to say I don't want to hear about them at all.
BakedPenguin | August 18, 2009, 4:04pm | #
Is there a compelling reason why we should care what she thinks, or care what other people think about what she thinks?
No and no
THE URKOBOLD BETS THAT LONEWACKO WOULD LIKE TO SEE PALIN NAKED. . .HOLDING A GUN. . .DEFENDING THE ALASKAN BORDER FROM THE DAMNED RUSSKIES.
That is, after she has already sufficiently subdued the rabid Canadian would-be IllegalAliens. Ooh, and also actual SpaceAliens.
When I am wearing my glasses, people have remarked that I look like a younger Sarah Palin. As long as I don't have her accent, I guess...
Trig Palin... a one person argument against libertopia and class-based health care if I ever saw one. Maybe noted unemployed person Sarah Palin should have stopped popping out those disabled baby parasites. Of course I realize in libertopia everyone is born with full mental capacity and nice square jawlines.
Fluffy is exactly right about the end result of government paying for your healthcare. Further, as Gabe pointed out on the other thread, Obama and his key advisors have been saying for years that is exactly the result they want; cutting cost by cutting off end of life treatment and making medical decisions based on efficiency. Calling them "death panels" was just a cheeky way of describing the truth. Bully for Palin for doing it.
"Trig Palin... a one person argument against libertopia and class-based health care if I ever saw"
Yes Tony because civil society and charities never help people like him. And government bureaucrats would never off someone like that in the name of cutting costs and efficiency. No, handicapped people are living examples of why we can never trust government to pay for healthcare.
In libertopia, parents provide for their own children, and, if they need help, then other people voluntarily provide that aid.
Of course, you wouldn't know, Tony, because you are not a person...
Do you guys actually believe this shit?
I believe it because I've lived it.
So, dear readers, is Palin a pinko commie or pinko commie hunter? Discuss
I vote for populist theocrat. Wait, that's not a catagory? Well, shit.
Do not respond to Tony-Troll.
Here, Enjoy Tony's LJ instead.
Palin's a neocon, but the "death panels" comment was pure genius. By stretching the truth a little, she almost single-handedly helped sink ObamaCare.
It's called "framing the debate". Make the Dems explain how repeatedly offering (accelerated) end-of-life counseling as people get sicker isn't some form of helping push Grandpa into the grave.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html?_r=1&ref=instapundit
I just saw this and it seriously makes your blood run cold.
And Palin is not a theocrat. If she is a theocrat, Mr. I attended church every Sunday for 20 years and beleive marriage is a sacred bond given by God between man and woman Barry Obama is one to.
When an insurance company denies coverage because the person has a pre-existing illness, how is that different from a "death panel"?
Really, Lamar? you can't tell the difference?
I suppose you think a car insurance company that refuses to cover your "preexisting" engine troubles is a "junker panel".
John, Holy Shit
I mean Holy Shit!
"When an insurance company denies coverage because the person has a pre-existing illness, how is that different from a "death panel"?"
Because the insurance company doesn't have the last word. First, you can get the treatment and go into debt. That clearly happens a lot. Aren't liberals always saying that thousands of people are going bankrupt because of medical care? Second if you are poor, you can go on medicaide and get them to pay for it. The government, once it gets its grimmy paws on the medical system, will have the final word on these things.
Moreover, if I get screwed because I have a pre-existing condition, I have screwed myself by being too cheap to buy health insurance when I was healthy. But when the government decides I don't get the treatment, it decides it for everyone whether it was pre-existing or not. You just die.
"Really, Lamar? you can't tell the difference?"
I just like to hear you say it. And I should warn you, that my ma has a condition (not even pre-existing) that the insurance companies have refused to cover. So maybe I'm a bit biased when I hear this death panel bullshit. Here's a hint: if it comes out of any hole on Sarah Palin, it is bullshit, unless it happens to be Toddsperm.
No shit Ben. Holy Shit is the only think I can say either.
It makes me laugh that, if this were a debate about "fire care", no rational person would think that you could call the insurance company while your house is on fire and get full coverage.
But, because this has to do with the nebulous term "health", everyone goes into Bizarro Irrationality Mode.
John,
Who says that people denied coverage by the government "death panel" can't go overseas to get treatment? Medical tourism happens all the time.
Everybody needs to read this link that John provided. Right Fucking Now!
"And I should warn you, that my ma has a condition (not even pre-existing) that the insurance companies have refused to cover."
On what basis do they refuse to cover? And is she getting treatment? Further for every anicdote like yours there are about a 1000 backed up with statistics of people dying waiting for treatment in Canada and the UK. Are insurance companies perfect? No. But they are clearly better than the government as evidenced by the our higher survival rates for terminal diseases.
I am sorry to hear that. I would be glad to help you out.
Just don't force everyone else to do so. And let me ask you this: do you think that health insurance is just supposed to cover everything under the sun or something?
"Who says that people denied coverage by the government "death panel" can't go overseas to get treatment? Medical tourism happens all the time."
That somehow is less than comforting.
"It makes me laugh that, if this were a debate about "fire care", no rational person would think that you could call the insurance company while your house is on fire and get full coverage."
My turn: You don't see the difference?
No. Lay it out for me.
"That somehow is less than comforting."
Just as comforting as "going into debt" when we all know credit isn't there and "going into debt" would only be an option for very few. And really, going into debt isn't that far removed from going overseas. In fact, with the exception of a plane ticket and hotel room, its the same thing.
something about health care just gets people into "GIMME GIMME MINE MINE MINE" entitlement-mode.
TAO - i've noticed this when talking to my friends and family. i pull out the car insurance/car crash analogy and they glaze over. "But that's different" they say, but can never explain why it is different.
Health care is an extremely emotional topic, common sense is usually thrown out the window when it is debated apparently along with contract law.
The government caused the problem of "pre-existing" conditions by tying insurance to your employer. End that and we don't have to worry about this mess in the future.
"something about health care just gets people into "GIMME GIMME MINE MINE MINE" entitlement-mode."
Whoa, there. You're strong (and well reasoned) opinion about the merit of nationalized health care has caused you to misjudge the level of bullshit in Sarah Palin's "death panel" comment.
Lamar,
Hyperbole, maybe. Bullshit? Not really. The transparent purpose of incentivizing accelerated "end of life" counseling is as a cost-reduction measure.
More bluntly, the Bill encouraged a process which its proponents hoped would cause more people to not go "balls to the wall" with end of life care. Period.
If Palin doesn't like death panels, she shouldn't get her career counseling from one.
And we accomplish that by commenting about her on blogs.
Creating jobs.
Eugenics is fun, ain't it?
Yep. But that's not fair unless you're screeching "BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED!"
Lovely. Luckily for you, your ma didn't treat you as an unwanted "condition."
"TAO - i've noticed this when talking to my friends and family. i pull out the car insurance/car crash analogy and they glaze over. "But that's different" they say, but can never explain why it is different."
ReallY? Your friends are not very bright. Not paying for my house to be rebuilt is a bit different than not paying for my abondectomy and letting me die from paratinitus.
We do not need to enforce death on people to create the proper incentives to buy insurance. I think facing financial ruin if you don't fork over the cash for insurance when you are healthy is incentive enough. I really don't think we have to let people die to get the point accross.
Boss, it would probably cause his ugly head to rear. Nobody wants that.
Yeah, what a has-been, derailing Obama's major domestic policy initiative from her Facebook page.
Enforce? Are you sure that is the word you want to use?
No one said anything about going around shooting the uninsured in the kneecaps and then saying "well, you shoulda bought insurance".
I did. I'm going to start drinking now. Jesus wept.
I'm not in favor of many of these health care reforms. But I am sick and tired of the GOP's new brand of brazen bullshit tactics. In the short run there may be a net benefit to being full of shit (health care gets defeated or scaled back). In the long run, you're still stuck with the problem that Sarah Palin is full of shit all the time. I'm over it.
What are you going to do, Lamar? Every time someone tries to have a rational discussion about health care, we get "Grandma's Bloody Shirt" and "Little Timmy's Chemo" waved in our faces.
Yeah Lamar even when she is right she is still full of shit. And only the left is allowed to use these tactics. How dare they!!
"Yeah, what a has-been, derailing Obama's major domestic policy initiative from her Facebook page."
And she quit her job to work on her Facebook page full time!
Lamar,
As opposed to the little old lady tactics the government is using? Works both ways, man. The truth is that the system isn't broken, but it's screwed up on the margins. If government (state and federal) didn't create so many barriers to entry and control so much of healthcare right now, there would be more competition for lower cost healthcare. Not just insurance, but the medical care itself.
BP,
We got some of your DNA at the Urkobold Christmas party. You're going to be framed for defacing the Washington Monument tomorrow. Sorry, but I just obey orders.
"Every time someone tries to have a rational discussion about health care, we get "Grandma's Bloody Shirt" and "Little Timmy's Chemo" waved in our faces."
I don't care what the left does. You don't shit in the urinal.
And you're talking about her because she's thwarting your goal.
There is nothing wrong with someone taking a look at your condition and deciding whether it is worthwhile to pursue a specific kind of medical treatment.
My grandmother is 96, disabled by a stroke (unable to talk or move much), and bedridden. She could probably use a pacemaker, but open heart surgery is not going to make such a difference at this point. It is an extreme example, but a lot of other situations are greyer.
Right now, if we wanted her to get a pacemaker, we could pay for the procedure even if the insurance company or medicare disagreed.
Once there is a single payer system, where private care is essentially illegal (as in Canada), this "end-of-life counseling"/"death panel"'s decision will be your last chance.
"""Yeah, what a has-been, derailing Obama's major domestic policy initiative from her Facebook page."""
I think you give her too much credit. I don't believe she brought down Obama care, albeit she did help. Obama, for the most part created his its demise by his bouncing position. You don't know what to believe with this guy, he will tell you one thing one day, then something different the next. Who the hell in their right mind would want that guy to make any major changes in something so big like healh care reform. It would probably take a week for this guy to figure out how to change a tire.
"And you're talking about her because she's thwarting your goal."
What's my goal?
PL, why don't you just wait until I go up to DC in October? I was planning on defacing it then, anyway.
I have to go, but I just want to make clear that I'm not supporting health care nationalization, socialization or whatever. I just think that winning an argument by lying hurts you in the long run.
So I take it many of you are in favor of using brash, dishonest propagandistic scare words rather than informed debate in order to determine policy?
Whatever you think of Palin, socialized medicine is doled out, er, ah, rationed, according to need. Using the term Death Panel is effective hyperbole, sure, but if you have socialized medicine and the government decides you are too old for aggressive cancer treatment, which actually happened to a client's mother in Great Britain last December, that ruling can be said to have been made by a death panel. And, that is exactly what happened, the woman died.
That's what Palin is talking about.
In the case of my friend Ray Farmer, it was the Navy Doctors that issued the death sentence because they were too incompetent to read an X-Ray that a civilian doctor interpreted in 30 seconds as indicating cancer. By then it was too late. Another Death Panel and another death.
So I take it many of you are in favor of using brash, dishonest propagandistic scare words rather than informed debate in order to determine policy?
National health care has no business being debated at all. It, like most things on the federal government agenda, is unconstitutional on its face (see Amendment 10)
ou're going to be framed for defacing the Washington Monument tomorrow.
I sickens me that you would so brazenly and self-servingly downgrade the rape of a precious national monument to mere "defacement."
BP,
Nah, we're planning to use VMSugarFree's DNA to exonerate you.
Well, Baked, it is a brave new world now, isn't it?
Talk about turning things 180 degrees.....
But how can that be? She's a has-been.
Oh, nothing.
Doesn't seem to be a problem Obama is going to have to deal with, this time.
NO BLOOD FOR OIL!
A free(er) market in healthcare will provide the greatest good for the greatest number. Period. Like it does with most other goods and services.
"""So I take it many of you are in favor of using brash, dishonest propagandistic scare words rather than informed debate in order to determine policy?"""
Things like mushroom clouds?
It's the same crap we got from the republicans on going to war with Iraq. To me, it shows Palin is willing to use the same bullshit. So much for her being different.
I don't have DNA, so joke's on you. DNA is for poor people.
TWC,
Palin is an idiot. She can't be right!!!
You are exactly right. People know that. Old people know that once decisions are made on the basis of efficiency and quality of life and cost they are fucked. And that is why they are angry. Palin just gave them a nice turn of phrase.
Palin reminds me of the role Peter Sellars played in "Being There". She's someone who isn't that bright but those that want to read Big Thinks into what she says will do so anyway.
SugarFree,
It will be. I plan to order some Stealth DNA as soon as its available.
"It's the same crap we got from the republicans on going to war with Iraq. To me, it shows Palin is willing to use the same bullshit. So much for her being different."
Death panels is not dishonest. See TWC's post above. Socialized medicine is a nasty idea with horrible consiquences.
"She's someone who isn't that bright but those that want to read Big Thinks into what she says will do so anyway."
Isn't that bright compared to whom? Are current President who can't give a speech without a teleprompter and decided it was a good political plan to let congress write his healthcare reform bill? Or maybe a current gaffamatic VP?
@John
Yeah, I did kinda miss those guys. I'm sure there are many more in power, too. No wonder I can't sleep.
"Yeah, I did kinda miss those guys. I'm sure there are many more in power, too. No wonder I can't sleep."
Yeah Susan, Joe Biden is a genius and the Obama is errudite and brillaint and a pragmatist to boot.
Susan,
The only people who get ahead in our political system are the manical narcissists. Intelligence or wisdom are not necessary.
I wasnt being sarcastic John 😛
The government caused the problem of "pre-existing" conditions by tying insurance to your employer. End that and we don't have to worry about this mess in the future.
Can I get odds on that? I have to find other battles to fight, this one is just too depressing.
Tony please. Your guys invented scaring old people. Did you really think the boomers were just gonna take it? Perhaps Supergenius shouldn't have promised everything to everyone for free.
brotherben | August 18, 2009, 5:03pm | #
Everybody needs to read this link that John provided. Right Fucking Now!
Why? Fabricating DNA has been the bases of genetics studies for years....putting the law enforcement part together with the known science in one article is not really new news.
Laugh it up, joshua. I just framed you for killing McKinley.
. . .and Julius Caesar. You traitor to the Republic!
There's an oblique point to be made here that if you give the government the funding decisions, you're either going to have death panels or taxpayer subsidized everything, but Palin isn't making it.
The libertarian position should be that that's exactly why the government should not have the funding decisions.
I really don't WANT some distant bureaucratic panel either forcing me to pay for Palin's down syndrome baby cradle-to-grave, OR pulling the plug on Palin's baby. Let Palin pay for her baby out of her own pocket, or from charitable donations from those willing.
Trig Palin... a one person argument against libertopia and class-based health care if I ever saw one. Maybe noted unemployed person Sarah Palin should have stopped popping out those disabled baby parasites. Of course I realize in libertopia everyone is born with full mental capacity and nice square jawlines.
You seem to be incapable of understanding that the decision to pay for Trig's lifetime health care could be an ENTIRELY PRIVATE one.
Not everyone's worthiness of living (or not) needs to be determined by some massive collectivized decision making process.
Google "Palin health care" (without the quotes) and you get 44,000,000 + hits.
Do the same with Pelosi and you get 4,000,000+ hits.
Harry Reid? 1,800,000+
As far as other republicans go, Romney checks in with 2.2 million+ hits; Gingrich tallies 1.4million+ and Mike Huckabee is down for
2million+.
And Rush? Three Million.
ir?rel?e?vant (-rl-vnt)
adj.
Unrelated to the matter being considered.
I think it's time the left brainstormed a term other than "irrelevant"
in attempts to marginalize Palin.
TWC - I should have thought of it, actually. If cloning is possible, this should actually be easier.
SugarFree, just wait until you hear what you've done to the Lincoln Monument.
You pervert.
"""Death panels is not dishonest."""
Sure it is. The panel doesn't not condemn you too, nor is it the cause of your death. Your medical condition provides that role. It was called end-of-life counseling, which assumes your pretty much at the end of your life before the panel reviews the approval for your procedure. In the end, it's not the panel that kills, it's the disease. But Palin wanted death panel to resonate like death camp, which unlike Obama's plan was the direct cause of many deaths.
I'm not a fan of government _______ (fill in the blank). But she's is being dishonest, but in the political world, that's par.
Maybe she's a hypocrite and an ignoramus?
Maybe she is like the hordes of people on the side of big-business interests who keeps spouting "everyone should pay their own way!" while doing anything possible to avoid paying a fair share for the support of the infrastructure that allows them do become wealthy? Maybe she is one of those morons who talk about small government while encouraging more military spending, forgetting that the Pentagon is a part of the government?
It's fair to say that, whether Health Care is public, private or somewhere in between, SOMEONE is going to get screwed.
"""
Why? Fabricating DNA has been the bases of genetics studies for years...."""
I think your playing loose with the term fabricating. Did you actually read the article? I don't think we've ever had the ability to make someone's spit match some other person's DNA.
Death is death. If she called it "murder panels," then you'd have a point.
I think it's time the left brainstormed a term other than "irrelevant"
in attempts to marginalize Palin.
How about "irrational" or "irritating"?
And anyway, check this out:
If you google "american idol health care" without the quotes you get 4,490,000 hits.
I guess your point was irrelevant.
Tricky - how parsimonious are you going to be? Technically speaking, brain death is the only death, so are you going to get all offended when people say "he died of a heart attack"?
The fact is that when the government assumes the role of health care provider, it becomes the arbiter of who lives and dies. period.
Okay - that was A LOT more profound when I was thinking it, but still I think it has to be said. The best way would be removing red tape rather than adding even more, holding providers of care to some standard and ensuring insurance companies don't weasel out of written contracts. Let's first accept that in any system someones favorite granny is going to fall through some kind of hole in the system.
Why is it evil if the government denies you a procedure that might save your live, but not evil if commercial insurance company does the same?
who said that it was/wasn't?
the takeover and the subsequent driving out of all other competitive forces is what is going to get people killed. the panels are a symptom, not the disease.
"""The fact is that when the government assumes the role of health care provider, it becomes the arbiter of who lives and dies. period."""
If you want to look at it that way, then we pay for an arbiter either way, commercial or business, both would use cost as a reason to deny procedures. Just because I distrust government doesn't make it more evil than the commercial model.
Say, Susan, doing anything tonight?
And the use of "recission as hammer" is getting old, because if people wanted to fix recission, we could fix it. The fact remains is that health care "reform" advocates cling to these sob stories because they are useful, not because they really feel any empathy for the victims of this admittedly odious practice.
Tricky, how many successful lawsuits do you suppose there are against the State for failing to live up to its obligations?
How often do you suppose it is that people change providers when there is a monopoly on the provider?
you're right in a limited sense - TANSTAAFL. Wishing it weren't so isn't going to help, however.
"""Tricky, how many successful lawsuits do you suppose there are against the State for failing to live up to its obligations?"""
Contractually obligation?
"""How often do you suppose it is that people change providers when there is a monopoly on the provider?""
Where in the Obama plan does it say you only get one provider and don't get to change?
Yes, much better to leave that question to the market.
"Yes, much better to leave that question to the market."
______________________________________________
Correct. And the market leaves it up to the individual to make that choice.
"I have no idea if she has gotten Trig on SSD. I am just pointing out that he is eligible to be on medicare."
Medicaid maybe, but no Medicare if you haven't worked enough quarters.
I don't understand how it can BE insurance if you can get coverage for a condition after that condition is diagnosed.
I can't get collision coverage AFTER the accident, can I?
In other words, their worthiness to live is based on how much money they have.
Tony's so right. Let's leave it to a democratic process. Everyone on this board gets to vote, and if he doesn't pass, he gets to become an involuntary organ donor, with his estate distributed to the needy.
The individuals exhibiting stupidity in this debate are Michael C. Moynihan and Richard Cohen. Palin identified a core truth regarding the Obama-Democrat health proposals, and dealt a blow not just to a single provision, but to Obama's credibility on the issue of health care generally. She will be hailed as one of the victors in this battle.
Moynihan has contributed nothing interesting or helpful. His words are worthless, and about 95% don't read to the end of his crap-o-la little blog posts, because it's not worth it.
Who the hell is Sarah Palin?
KenK, thanks for the correction. I assumed that medicare came with the disablity for everyone, including children.
Paul, she's a lipstick wearing blind pig that happened to find an acorn with her deathpanel comment.
Does a free market only reward the wealthy? TVs, computers, cable, mp3 players, cellphones, etc. are all products of the marketplace, and I believe all of them have extremely high penetration rates. Meaning that many poor people have them, too.
Yes, much better to leave that question to the market.
Simple yet funny, it's amazing that people who are so worried about a person dying due to government run healthcare find it acceptable that someone can die due to lack of money or being uninsurable. I guess it depends on what you find acceptable.
ANyways, Dondero made some comment about her being the next great libertarian hope, and she has kept popping up here ever since.
Moynihan has contributed nothing interesting or helpful. His words are worthless, and about 95% don't read to the end of his crap-o-la little blog posts, because it's not worth it.
I would go further and ask why is he here?
"Does a free market only reward the wealthy? TVs, computers, cable, mp3 players, cellphones, etc. are all products of the marketplace, and I believe all of them have extremely high penetration rates. Meaning that many poor people have them, too."
Exactly. Without rich people to be early adopters of those technologies, we wouldn't have the cheap versions we buy today.
One of the things Obama is trying to sell his health care reform as providing uninversal coverage while cutting costs by eliminating inefficient procedures. In other words, Obama wants tp guarantee that everyone is covered until covering you is not considered efficient by some government appointed bureaucrats.
The question I have to his supporters is: How is this an improvement over what we have now?
When you buy private health coverage or your employer buys it, the insurance company has an incentive to provide some minimum acceptable standard as they need to please their customers. The government does not even have this as a nominal incentive. The government does not care about you and has no incentaive to treat you as anything other than a statistic as the health care bureaucracy will be funded the same whether you or your family are happy with the service or not.
I would say the primary difference is that she believes that bullshit when she says it.
Without rich people the Japanese to be early adopters of those technologies, we wouldn't have the cheap versions we buy today.
FTFY
John. You are saying palin can't be a cristian because that would make barack one too. Love that logic.
Tao. I never thought I would say this but I'm glad they passed hate crime legislation. Hope it's a fun experience
WTF are you talking about?
wow. too bad i missed out on this one...
The victims will be the poor, the uninformed and the ideologically blind who will find themselves unable to make a graceful exit.
Yes of course, Palin that stupid old bag. Government needs to step in and ensure everyone has the right to a graceful exit.
I concur that maybe Palin's approach isn't the best, but why is this Moynihan guy picking out these details instead of laying out why the whole idea of the government needing to assist people in this aspect of their life?
Why are hacks like this guy still focused on just being anti-Republican instead of actually taking on real ideas that pose genuine harm to our individual liberties?
In other words, their worthiness to live is based on how much money they have.
As opposed to (say), whether some government board determines that they are still useful to society.
Or are you suggesting that it's immoral to deny anyone treatment for anything every for any reason?
I'd much rather have someone's ability to live determined by whether they can earn enough money themselves through voluntary exchange (i.e. the market) to support themselves, than have it determined by whether they have enough voting power to leech off of everyone else.
I'd much rather have someone's ability to live determined by whether they can earn enough money themselves through voluntary exchange (i.e. the market) to support themselves, than have it determined by whether they have enough voting power to leech off of everyone else.
Not only is that a false dichotomy, but if that's how you really feel, you are...aw, man, somebody else finish that. I'm sickened by that sentiment.
"When an insurance company denies coverage because the person has a pre-existing illness, how is that different from a "death panel"?"
When you tell a homeless person they can't camp in your living room, how is that different from a "homelessness panel"?
Firstly "denying coverage" makes it sound like the attempt to get insurance was legitimate in the first place. Insurance is a forward-looking product which exists to mitigate contingencies; it has no applicability to dealing with concrete realities. No reasonable person expects to get a fire insurance policy on a house that's already burned to the ground, or a vehicle policy on a car that's already wrecked. Even if they're getting an insurance policy on a property less drastically damaged, those policies are explicitly for dealing with future damages; they insure the property as it is when the contract is made.
When a person already has an expensive health problem, they are no longer looking for insurance; they are looking for a handout and calling it "insurance" so that they don't have to think of themselves as being on welfare. Ironically, the best solution is probably to explicitly put people with expensive pre-existing conditions on actual welfare (not until they've spent enough of their own income that they cross the threshold for assistance -- we don't need to reward people for behaving short-sightedly). But it would puncture the egos of too many middle-class white people.
Not a puerile utopian moron.
What I learned today. In libertopia getting seriosly ill means you did something wrong and short sighted deserving of ruining your credit and savings. You must be taught a lesson hope you aren't too miffed. Byeee
Jim Treacher,
My reaction to Hazel Meade's statement has nothing to do with gov't health care or politics.
Here, Enjoy Tony's LJ instead.
Ah, so Tony is an angry, self-loathing fattie twink. Not very many chubby chasers in Oklahoma, T?
How pleasant that you think so.
"What I learned today. In libertopia getting seriosly ill means you did something wrong and short sighted deserving of ruining your credit and savings."
Sorry dude, in a properly functioning system, welfare is for poor people, insurance is for responsible people, and out of pocket care is for rich people. Better figure which applies to you (although until the system is fixed, "boned" is a valid answer).
Jim,
If you kept the juvenile smarm in your head, rather than putting it up on the internet for the rest of the world to read, the adults would be just as entertained by it.
Are you serious with this crap?
My goodness.
Thank you for quoting that, by the way. I like that you went out of your way to reinforce it.