"A symptom and signal of our sharp turn toward paternalism in everything from complex finance to corporate governance to the simplest products"
The New York Times' Adam Liptak has a very favorable report on the Supreme Court's decision to hear a case challenging "excessive" executive pay:
The case, Jones v. Harris Associates, may turn out to be the court's first significant statement on the corporate culture that helped lead to the Great Recession.
The case arose from the enormous fees mutual funds pay to their investment advisers. A three-judge panel of Judge [Richard] Posner's court, the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, in Chicago, threw out a lawsuit brought by the investors in three Oakmark mutual funds who said the funds had overpaid their investment adviser, Harris Associates.
The panel decision, written by Chief Judge Frank H. Easterbrook, another leader of the law and economics movement, said the marketplace could be trusted to regulate fees. Judge Posner, dissenting from the full court's decision not to rehear the case, said competition had not been effective in keeping the compensation under control….
But when public sentiment, economic research and even Judge Posner argue for more vigorous judicial examination of whether compensation is fair, the Supreme Court may just agree.
University of Illinois law professor Larry Ribstein offers a different view, noting that while the Court may well take Posner's side, that doesn't make it right: "Such a decision would be a symptom and signal of our sharp turn toward paternalism in everything from complex finance to corporate governance to the simplest products."
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"Such a decision would be a symptom and signal of our sharp turn toward paternalism in everything from complex finance to corporate governance to the simplest products."
So it's a done deal then.
It's really too bad that socialism is one of those words that's been overused to the point of meaninglessness, because here's the genuine article, and it's nearly impossible just to name it in public.
Unless they lied or in any way misrepresented what they had to pay, I don't see how this works. But maybe I'm just behind the times.
OK, so this is NOT a case about whether the government should or can set maximum pay rates for private company officials. It's similiar to a derivative suit in which a shareholder charges that the management of an enterprise have not done their duty comprised of what is best for the shareholders. Since government places this barrier between holders and management this seems entirely appropriate to me. I'm curious to see what libertarians have to say over this.
FTA
Last summer, Richard A. Posner, a federal appeals court judge, issued a surprising and prescient dissent. Executive pay is out of control, he said, and the marketplace cannot be trusted to rein it in.
Judge Posner is a conservative with libertarian leanings...
...What? Is it opposite day?
Hey Stacy, you are an idiot. This case is aboout whether private investors can hold the management of their investments accountable for their decisions. This is not enacting Leninism.
Stacy is a good example of why people who shout "socialism" are often not to be taken seriously...
Posner is much more libertarian than conservative. Most real deal conservatives do not care for him...Go read NRO's bench memo blog.
In the mind of too many stupid journalists libertarians ARE conservatives, because, you know, they are'nt liberals. Hey, it's pathetic but what can you do...
Hey Stacy, you are an idiot. This case is aboout whether private investors can hold the management of their investments accountable for their decisions.
OK, I want to sue the federal government because they're paying everyone in the Department of Education too much. It's not interfering with the legal fulfillment of a contract, it's taxpayers holding the management of our country accountable for their shitty performance.
All government, all-the-time, in every orifice.
No thank you.
Tulpa
My you are as cute as Shirley Temple!
Back to the point, you don't think that private parties that contract with someone to manage their investment to maximize their investment should not be able to hold the manager's accountable for decisions which seem to not do so? I mean, could the managers pay their wives some exorbiant amount for some work tangentially related to managing the fund? Are you just engaged in your default authority worship?
JB
Where is the government here? In enforcing contractual duties? So you are against that?
This case is aboout whether private investors can hold the management of their investments accountable for their decisions.
Yes, by firing them and hiring a new board. Or by voting with your feet/dollars. But that isnt what the case is about.
Unless there was some kickbacks or quid pro quo, I dont see any grounds for a lawsuit. "Paying too much" isnt fraud.
robc
I buy some stock in a company in which are in the board of directors. In that capacity you appoint your cousin as CEO, who then announces the company will buy a huge contract of goods from a company you own.
I shouldn't have a right to sue? I just have to sell my stock and buy some more trustworthy enterprise's stock? WTF?
On a slightly different but related concept, I oppose the existence of shareholder lawsuits. If you buy a share in a company, you are an owner, therefore any behavior of your management team is your responsibility. Suing "yourself" makes no sense. I know, the members of the suits generally arent shareholders any more, but they were at the time.
Suing the individual board/management members? Yeah, I can see that. Suing the company makes no sense.
OK, now same thing, but you hire your cousin to do some "consulting" and approve an exorbiant payment for that service.
I should just sell? No suit?
MNG,
see the post I was typing as you were typing. Sue me, or the CEO. Not the company, because you ARE the fucking company.
MNG,
I think hiring your shiftless cousin falls under the "quid pro quo" category. I still favor only suing the CEO personally though.
MNG,
Did you even read my post using the phrase "kickback or quid pro quo" because every one of your examples falls under my exception.
More realistic example: CEO decides to buy Aeron chairs for executives. Really? a lawsuit over that?
No lawsuit needed, the free market sorts this out very effectivly, if they did not want ot pay the fees (which i am sure were in the contract!) then they had every right to not do buisness with them, or to pull out thier money and roll it into another fund or account. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! it is the INVESTORS responsabiltiy to make sure his money is doing what he/she wants it to, if not its his/her right to move it into something else. they agreed and only when the market fell and the fees were costing them money instead of making htem money that they got pissed. Once we start making the people who file lawsiuts [pay all lawyer and court costs to the other party if they loose, then maybe we will start reforming the legal sytem in some meaningful way
MNG,
And, to answer one of you questions, YES, the day you hear that the new CEO is a cousin of a board member you should sell your stock. To do otherwise is to accept the decision. Less public decisions are the trickier ones.
The Great Recession? Really?
Executive compensation has become almost completely divorced from market forces. I suppose it's government meddling that caused it?
Executive compensation has become almost completely divorced from market forces.
Has it? Shareholders seem less concerned about it than non-shareholders. I dont understand why the latter give a damn, it is none of their fucking business.
To be fair, I also dont understand why the former dont care more.
Posner is much more libertarian than conservative. Most real deal conservatives do not care for him...Go read NRO's bench memo blog.
Because conservatives don't agree with Posner doesn't mean that Libertarians do. Posner is about as "libertarian" as Bill Maher.
Executive compensation has become almost completely divorced from market forces. I suppose it's government meddling that caused it?
If it's not the market that is producing such compensation, then it must be by some government decree that I don't know about. Unless it's from supernatural or extraterrestrial forces, then it must be either the market or government.
Executive compensation has become almost completely divorced from market forces. I suppose it's government meddling that caused it?
Nope. It's lazy shareholders, and people unwilling to pressure large institutional investors because they just want their 8%.
Shareholders seem less concerned about it than non-shareholders. I dont understand why the latter give a damn, it is none of their fucking business.
I will never understand why someone who isn't a shareholder at a company thinks their opinion about what the company pays anyone matters at all. As a small shareholder, you can easily sell; a larger shareholder, you can vote.
"Executive compensation has become almost completely divorced from market forces. I suppose it's government meddling that caused it?"
[Citation Needed]
Lazy shareholders? In a one-party system it's hard to do anything *but* be lazy, and I've never seen a corporation actually have a competitive election for its directors. You basically get a choice between "approve who the oligarchy recommends" or "plunge us all into leaderless anarchy". How much of this is due to state laws regarding incorporation and how much is due to corporate bylaws, I have no idea.
micro2000, the choices are not "supernatural", "government", or "market"; you forgot "monopoly" and "monopsony". If someone buys a ring of property around your home, and if we get government completely out of the picture by not permitting any non-toll roads on that property, then trust me, the toll road fees are *not* going to be set by the market forces of supply and demand. (well, not directly... I suppose the monopolist would still have to charge less than a helicopter rental fee...)
Posner is the most overrated judge ever. He's a second rate intellect that has a couple of things going for him: He has infinite energy, he is good at regurgitating other people's ideas (from Coase to Rorty) and he's a judge. This last point is important because no one would pay any attention to him if he were anything other than a judge, nor would his books find a welcome publisher.
Law is a very good refuge for the second rate.
DO NOT FEED THE STUPID TROLL.
BTW, shut the fuck up, Tony.
roystgnr - Look up the term "easement", particularly "easement by necessity". I think most courts would find that if somebody buys up a ring of property around yours, failing to let you cross freely in and out of your property would destroy its use. Most libertarians not being anarchists, I don't think they would have a serious problem with this either, so the whole thing sounds like a red herring to me.
micro2000, the choices are not "supernatural", "government", or "market"; you forgot "monopoly" and "monopsony". If someone buys a ring of property around your home, and if we get government completely out of the picture by not permitting any non-toll roads on that property, then trust me, the toll road fees are *not* going to be set by the market forces of supply and demand. (well, not directly... I suppose the monopolist would still have to charge less than a helicopter rental fee...)
roystgnr-that would be true in the model you set up, but I fail to see how it argues anything in the current existence of business. The issue of "excessive compensation", in the minds of the general public, entails thousands of businessmen/women who have received large compensations. I don't see any monopoly here.
Hey Stacy, you are an idiot. This case is aboout whether private investors can hold the management of their investments accountable for their decisions. This is not enacting Leninism.
Because investors are completely incapable of pulling their investments out of mutual funds that overpay executives and putting them in very low fee index funds like Vanguard?
Is there anything you don't think government should keep their grubby paws off and leave to individuals, MNG?
I've never seen a corporation actually have a competitive election for its directors.
Really? Its rare but exciting when it happens. Generally happens when the board pisses off a 30% outsider owner. Suddenly you get a proxy fight with a separate slate of candidates.
From wikipedia, I like the spin in the last paragraph:
In 2004, Icahn purchased a large block of stock in a pharmaceutical concern, Mylan Laboratories, after Mylan had announced a deal to acquire another company in that market, King Pharmaceuticals, of Bristol, Tennessee. Icahn threatened a proxy fight over the acquisition, saying that the contract required Mylan to over-pay. He also contended that Mylan's chief executive, Robert J. Coury was significantly overcompensated and that Mylan's corporate governance was otherwise badly flawed.
In early 2005, Mylan gave up its efforts to acquire King, but management said this was a result of its ongoing monitoring of relevant facts, not due to pressure from Mr. Icahn.
Another:
As of June, 2009, Icahn has managed to seat two of his allies on Biogen's board with the apparent goal of splitting the company into two entities and possibly replacing CEO James C. Mullen, of whom he has been highly critical.
Icahn does this on a regular basis.
I've seen partnerships go down in similar ways. You say your recourse is to sell your share? Fine, that's just what the other partner wants.
I see nothing wrong with the general idea of part owners having legal rights against the performance of other part owners. Then it's just a matter of judgement as to whether a threshold has been passed regarding whether it's a legitimate disagreement in the business (which also kills some partnerships) or cheating.
Posner did considerable good & important work before he was a judge. I think of him more for his work from back then than since he put on a robe. (He even answered a letter I sent regarding cable TV franchising.) However, I've no reason to think he's become lazier, even though the incentive is there to slack off when you have life tenure.
"Is there anything you don't think government should keep their grubby paws off and leave to individuals, MNG?"
Of course not, just like there's no statist policy he won't defend by ...trying to twist it into an example of "private" action.
I read zero of MNG's other comments before coming to that conclusion, but I just figured I owed him/her the same consideration s/he showed me.