Professional Atheist Pitchforks New Christian Head of NIH
New atheist Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason (2004) and Letter to a Christian Nation (2006), takes after Francis Collins, the former head of the federal government's Human Genome Project. President Barack Obama has just appointed Collins as the director the National Institutes of Health where he will oversee that agency's $30 billion annual research budget. Harris is really ticked that Collins professes to be able to reconcile Christianity with modern science.
A couple of weeks back, Harris wrote an op/ed in the New York Times expressing great unease about appointing the author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief (2006) to head up the government's biggest biomedical R&D effort. Harris pointed out:
Most scientists who study the human mind are convinced that minds are the products of brains, and brains are the products of evolution. Dr. Collins takes a different approach: he insists that at some moment in the development of our species God inserted crucial components — including an immortal soul, free will, the moral law, spiritual hunger, genuine altruism, etc.
As someone who believes that our understanding of human nature can be derived from neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science and behavioral economics, among others, I am troubled by Dr. Collins's line of thinking.
Harris concludes:
Francis Collins is an accomplished scientist and a man who is sincere in his beliefs. And that is precisely what makes me so uncomfortable about his nomination. Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who sincerely believes that a scientific understanding of human nature is impossible?
The New York Times op/ed was evidently not enough. Harris has now typed out a much more fulsome condemnation of what he takes to be Collins' religious irrationality. A few choice tidbits appear below:
Collins's claim to have been an atheist seems especially suspect, given that he does not understand what the position of atheism actually entails. For instance:
If God is outside of nature, then science can neither prove nor disprove his existence. Atheism itself must therefore be considered a form of blind faith, in that it adopts a belief system that cannot be defended on the basis of pure reason. (Collins, 2006, p.165)
Elsewhere he says that of "all the possible worldviews, atheism is the least rational" (Ibid, p. 231). I suspect that this will not be the last time a member of our species will be obliged to make the following point (but one can always hope): disbelief in the God of Abraham does not require that one search the entire cosmos and find Him absent; it only requires that one consider the evidence put forward by believers to be insufficient. Presumably Francis Collins does not believe in Zeus. I trust he considers this skeptical attitude to be fully justified. Might this be because there are no good reasons to believe in Zeus? And what would he say to a person who claimed that disbelief is Zeus is a form of "blind faith" or that of all possible worldviews it is the "least rational"?
Harris continues to pile on:
Collins argues that science makes belief in God "intensely plausible"—the Big Bang, the fine-tuning of Nature's constants, the emergence of complex life, the effectiveness of mathematics, all suggest to him that a "loving, logical, and consistent" God exists; but when challenged with alternate (and far more plausible) accounts of these phenomena—or with evidence that suggests that God might be unloving, illogical, inconsistent, or, indeed, absent—Collins declares that God stands outside of Nature, and thus science cannot address the question of His existence at all. Similarly, Collins insists that our moral intuitions attest to God's existence, to His perfectly moral character, and to His desire to have fellowship with every member of our species; but when our moral intuitions recoil at the casual destruction of innocent children by, say, tidal wave or earthquake, Collins assures us that our time-bound notions of good and evil can't be trusted and that God's will is a mystery.
Harris ends with this wonderfully tendentious question:
Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who believes that understanding ourselves through science is impossible, while our resurrection from death is inevitable?
Read the whole rip roarin' anti-Collins tract here.
In my Darwin Day 2006 column, I discussed Stephen Jay Gould's notion that religion and science constitute two non-overlapping magisteria. I concluded:
Scientific research into the sources of religious belief is just beginning, so any of the current findings could be rejected or revised as further evidence becomes available. Nevertheless, the magisterium of science is surrounding and shrinking the domain of the magisterium of religion. The Open Letter [on Religion and Science endorsed by thousands of clergy) asserts, "We believe that among God's good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator." It may well be that that same capacity for critical thought eventually leads us to stop believing in Him.
As I've disclosed before: I used to be an evangelical atheist, but I've since relaxed a lot. Or as I now put it--I am an atheist the same way that I am a-unicornist--show me a god and or a unicorn and I'll change my mind about their existence.
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I used to be an evangelical atheist, but I've since relaxed a lot.
In my experience, evangelical atheists are the ones who just "converted". I'm glad that I grew out of that phase in high school.
"As I've disclosed before: I used to be an evangelical atheist, but I've since relaxed a lot. Or as I now put it--I am an atheist the same way that I am a-unicornist--show me a god and or a unicorn and I'll change my mind about their existence. "
That's exactly who the rest of us are atheists, actually.
Way to cop out.
http://cafebeat.org/princessj/extras/marine/narwhal2.jpg
I'm glad that I grew out of that phase in high school.
What?!?
The other god thread takes too long to load.
You have lots of observations to base you assertion that there are no unicorns or whatever. If they were running around the world you would after all see them. But you have no observation to base your assertion that God is not responsible for the big bang. You have no way of seeing beyond the big bang and thus no way of making any scientific assertions about its cause or anything that happened before it. You say it wasn't God, because that is your faith.
No one has ever observed invisible green goblins in his car. No one has ever observed a god. Say that over and over until it makes sense.
John, you have a weird definition of faith.
Epi, I mean the "you're a fucking moron because you believe in god, faggot!" phase. You're still in that, right, faggot?
Harris comes across as a bit of a crank.
I am sure that Collins' beliefs are not going to hinder his ability to manage the NIH. In particular, he won't be in a position to judge the merits of individual projects. He also is unlikely to set up policies based on his beliefs, since he sees religion and science as separate domains. In other words, Harris comes across with a variation of the "everyone's stupid except for me" argument.
strike through16 years agoA person who is comfortable in his natural state (atheism) needn't go about pestering the lesser boobs. At least not until they start clammoring to rob him of his rights. Then he should raise hell like there's no tomorrow.
I'll have you know that I'm a heterosexual atheist, Warty. Just because you have some fixation on me in no way affects my sexual orientation. No, that only affects NutraSweet.
Make that a variation of the "you're a fucking moron because you believe in god, faggot!" argument.
Like I said, a bit of a crank.
Warty, John is not making the "I've never seen a green goblin argument."
He is making the "assertions about events prior to the existence of the Universe are not testable scientific hypotheses" argument.
Meh. If you're going to go public with your personal superstitions, and then take a prominent gubbmit position, I think said superstitions are fair game.
I don't see anything especially churlish in pointing out ridiculousness. The FSM has graciously provided such ridiculousness for our enjoyment, and who are we to question Its will?
the lesser boobs
Good band name.
Harris is no bigger a crank than the evolutionary biologists. If you want to explain our behavior based on our genes, then fine. But kiss free will good bye. Either genes determine how we act or they don't. If we can rise above our genes and make our own decisions (as Dawkins himself claims), then why do we give a flying fuck what our genes have to say? Further, just exactly what or who is doing the rising above our genes if the brain is nothing but a gene driven computer?
Were it not for newly-converted atheists and newly-converted religious people, there would be a lot fewer incendiary books out there telling us all how dangerously wrong large sections of the population are about Really Important Things.
I find the religious evangelist at my door a bit annoying, but at least I respect his motives. He thinks my immortal soul is in peril and wishes to rescue me. I consider it rather kind of him to go out of his way to alert me to such danger, even as I'm rather certain the danger doesn't exist and his efforts are not required.
The raging evangelical atheist, on the other hand, is merely acting upon a tribal instinct, wishing to swell the ranks of the "enlightened" out of entirely selfish motives.
It's a shame that, of the two, the religious nut would not care to come drink at one of my parties. He would be, by far, the more welcome guest.
Did Harris ever read this:
United States Constitution, Article VI, section 3:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
The ironic thing here is that Harris is ignoring the scientific evidence. Taking the set of scientists, some members have also believed in the existence of the supernatural (Newton and Kelvin, just to name two). What percentage is irrelevant; the base induction would appear to be that it is possible to believe in the supernatural and still practice science in the generally accepted manner. Unless Harris has some concrete evidence of Collin's beliefs interfering with his science, he is operating on a unproven theory in the face of observable fact.
See, this is what I am talking about.
In Collins argument, Zeus would just be a different name for the same concept, making this an extremely weak retort to Collins assertion (it begs the question and misinterprets the point).
Hitchens is at least fun to read because he's such an asshole, and Dan Dennett is mind-blowingly brilliant. Sam Harris just has a very punchable face.
Gould's discussion of the "separate magisteria of science and religion" is a cop-out, and shows a remarkable lack of historical knowledge for someone of his erudition.
The earliest religions were not attempting to do anything but explain the world and the phenomena in it. They relied for their plausibility on the fact that the accumulated knowledge Man had about the universe was relatively small, and they also relied on the fact that the average person tends to associate correlation with causation. It would be accurate to say that at one point in time there could be no useful distinction drawn between religion and science because they were the same thing.
Religion gained its own "magisteria" only when the advancement of knowledge started to poke holes in the truth claims of existing religions, and interested parties weren't willing to let those religions die the way outdated scientific models die.
At one time "the gods did it" was a sensible explanation for events, given the information people had available. The problem is that as more information became available, for reasons of stubbornness, sentimentality, or personal greed, there were people not willing to dump that explanation. Those people have been desperately finding smaller and smaller places to hide their gods as the advacement of knowledge moves along.
BOB: imagine the works Newton might have accomplished if he hadn't wasted so many years on mystical bullshit and alchemy.
John,
Harris is no bigger a crank than the evolutionary biologists.
Do you mean Collins?
Either way, the rest of your comment is way off the mark as far as the claims of evolutionary biology (which are a "the sum is greater than the parts" argument, and not reductionist arguments).
"Collins argues that science makes belief in God "intensely plausible"-the Big Bang, the fine-tuning of Nature's constants, the emergence of complex life, the effectiveness of mathematics, all suggest to him that a "loving, logical, and consistent" God exists;"
Note Harris never responds to any of those points. He just says well Collins believes them. No shit.
But when challenged with alternate (and far more plausible) accounts of these phenomena-or
More plausable says who? What is Harris doing here but making assumptions and unsupported assertions?
"With evidence that suggests that God might be unloving, illogical, inconsistent, or, indeed, absent-Collins declares that God stands outside of Nature, and thus science cannot address the question of His existence at all."
And why is Collins wrong in asserting that other than Harris says so?
Either genes determine how we act or they don't.
False choice. "Nature + nurture" not nature xor nurture.
With apologies to the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, John,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
"Meh. If you're going to go public with your personal superstitions, and then take a prominent gubbmit position, I think said superstitions are fair game."
So you favor an irreligious test for potential office holders?
"Either way, the rest of your comment is way off the mark as far as the claims of evolutionary biology (which are a "the sum is greater than the parts" argument, and not reductionist arguments)."
You give them too much credit. If genes don't determine our actions, they are irrelevent. If they do, we don't have free will. Since we obviously seem to have free will, it would seem that genes are irrelevent. That doesn't mean we have souls or any such thing. But it does mean evolutionary psychology is a waste of time.
And why is Collins wrong in asserting that other than Harris says so?
Collins' faith seems quite harmless, and for that matter, pretty weak. He sounds almost like a deist.
Shouldn't Harris be going after a radical imam or something?
"False choice. "Nature + nurture" not nature xor nurture."
Bullshit. If I can "rise above my genes", how are they relevent? It can't be that they "sort of" determine my actions. Further, the idea that evolution created genes that determines our actions is completely belied by the complexity of the world. Human beings do all sorts of crazy and frivolous things that do nothing to advance our species.
I don't see anything especially churlish
I love it when you talk dirty.
In the beginning, we were all fish. Okay? Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different, so it got to live. So Retard Fish goes on to make more retard babies, and then one day, a retard baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its...mutant fish hands...and it had butt sex with a squirrel or something and made this.
Retard frog-sqirrel, and then *that* had a retard baby which was a... monkey-fish-frog... And then this monkey-fish-frog had butt sex with that monkey, and that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey... and that made you!
So there you go! You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel! Congratulations!
"Shouldn't Harris be going after a radical imam or something?"
First, that would be very un PC. And second, since Harris is just as much of a fanatic as the Imam, it would seem like bad professional courtesy.
Neu Mejican wrote:
Actually, no. Collins believes in the god of Abraham and Jesus Christ specifically. He is also not a polytheist (Zeus being just but one god in a pantheon).
@ Episiarch
I never tire of that. Thanks.
Fluffy,
Good points all, but I think they ignore a major element in religious beliefs. Religions do provide explanation for "why things are the way they are" but those seem, to me, to be there primarily to support the more central issue. Religions are primarily about ethics.
For the most part religions ground ethical arguments on an authority figure...one way to give those authority figures status as authority figures is to tie them to the creation of "the way the world is."
John - wow, you are on a roll today (not a compliment).
Your genes determine, to a certain extent, the reality in which you operate. What you make of that reality is entirely up to you.
strike through16 years agoWarty | August 11, 2009, 4:11pm | #
the lesser boobs
Good band name.
You like it? My next band will be called PRE-EXISTING CONDITION. Thank you, Detroit!
If I can "rise above my genes", how are they relevent? It can't be that they "sort of" determine my actions.
Bullshit.
😉
Of popular atheists, Harris has always impressed me the least. Whether you share his theology or not, his epistemological premises are simply awful. Fortunately for him, his opponents' are equally, if not more, so.
disbelief in the God of Abraham does not require that one search the entire cosmos and find Him absent; it only requires that one consider the evidence put forward by believers to be insufficient.
Anybody think this sounds more like Agnosticism than Atheism?
Oops, hit submit instead of preview...
To continue Fluffy...the "outside of science" has more to do with "how things should be" than "how they are."
I realize that Gould adds "why they are the way they are" as being outside the realm of science, of course, but that seems related, somehow.
Brian Lockwood - no. It's a-theism. No gods have been proven to exist.
Agnosticism is namby-pampy bullshit.
Collins believes that Jesus was god himself. He's a theist, straight up. Not a deist. Not even "almost a deist." Once you believe in the virgin birth and the Resurrection you're in the game.
Anybody think this sounds more like Agnosticism than Atheism?
An agnostic asserts that it is impossible to know if god exists. An atheist asserts that god doesn't exist.
Soda: oops, I missed that part when I skimmed it.
No one has ever observed a god.
Some people claim otherwise.
Soda - even so, believing in a Deity and happening to merely ascribe to the mythologies of ones' culture could be called a kind of deism. He believes in God and doesn't quibble with the popular mythology around him.
Meh.
"Your genes determine, to a certain extent, the reality in which you operate. What you make of that reality is entirely up to you."
That is just nonsense AO. What is a "certain extent"? You are assumeing that there is a me outside of my genes and brain for my genes to act on. Where is this me? What is it? If there is this thing, called a brain and it is a machine governed by and created by evolution and its genes, where is the "me" to rise above what those genes are saying?
And if there is such a "me", under what conditions and what rules do I rise above those genes? If the answer is "you rise above your genes except when you don't", then genes are still irrelvent since we cannot say when we rise above them or really even what it means to rise above them.
Actually, no. Collins believes in the god of Abraham and Jesus Christ specifically. He is also not a polytheist (Zeus being just but one god in a pantheon).
You are being mighty concrete here. Zeus is a close enough match that Harris's move to him misses the mark...it does not address the point Collins was making.
Technically, Jews are not monotheists. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," does not deny the existence of other gods, it is just a prohibition against worshiping them. The Jewish religion is henotheistic.
But it's easier to get be people to be a Cleveland Browns fan if you tell them no other teams exist.
If God is outside of Nature, then how did He influence its components? He cannot be both outside of Nature and yet directing its development. Stating that He directed events implies that the universe would have developed along a different path without Him. At some point, an illogical or unexpected change should have occurred that is unexplainable using scientific standards. Research may one day be able to detect these shifts and therefore prove the existence of God.
I sure don't expect to see it, though.
It's a shame that, of the two, the religious nut would not care to come drink at one of my parties. He would be, by far, the more welcome guest.
Ive never received an invite. I will bring some homebrew.
"As I've disclosed before: I used to be an evangelical atheist, but I've since relaxed a lot. Or as I now put it--I am an atheist the same way that I am a-unicornist--show me a god and or a unicorn and I'll change my mind about their existence."
Ronald Bailey (B.A. in philosophy and economics) vastly overestimates the inherent interest of his personal relation to this question.
AO,
Is thee anything no matter how rediculous that some guy in a lab coat tells you that you won't believe? Scientist say that my genes determine my behavior, unless I chose otherwise or just happen not to follow them. Sounds good to me.
You could try calling it that. But it wouldn't be that. It's a kind of theism. Weak theism perhaps? If you believe God can come to Earth and do anything that affects the universe post Big-Band then you're a theist.
Neu: Religions are primarily about ethics.
Hmmm.
Robert Wright's new book The Evolution of God argues that in the beginning religion had nothing to do with ethics. According to Wright, anthropological and archaeological evidence suggests that Deities (including Yahweh) made no ethical pronouncements other than demand that they worshiped or else.
Eventually ethics got tacked on, but religion was at least initially a primitive kind of "science" trying to explain how the world operated (mostly through the activities of somewhat capricious intentional spirits).
Just saying.
John,
You are the river, your genes the rain.
John, are you denying the existence of your own self? your own consciousness?
there is nothing contradictory in saying that genetics plays a role in the reality in which you operate. For example, genetics can inform someone that they are at risk for cancer. You cannot "rise above" cancer, at least, not entirely. But you can choose to not smoke, to diet and to exercise.
Why is that so hard for you? And really, what is your point?
Umm... Soda, a deist is a kind of theist.
William: No I don't.
Holy shit, John, let go of the culture war you're constantly waging and open your mind once in a while. Not everything is wrapped up in Team Red BS.
But it's easier to get be people to be a Cleveland Browns fan if you tell them no other teams exist.
Fuck you, SugarFree. FUCK. YOU.
Shut the fuck up, Lefiti.
Ron,
I disagree. This is not an either or argument, but an important part of the world needing explanation is the social world. Why people act the way they do. From the beginning primitive religious have attempted to answer these questions. That seems like ethics to me.
Ron, "William" is the...creature...we know as "Edward" or "Lefiti".
Ok, so if Harris had switched Zeus for Poseidon it would have been a better retort. Is that what you saying? Meaning, don't choose the head god of a pantheon when drawing parallels?
strike through16 years agoNeu: Religions are primarily about ethics
Dontcha mean metaphysics?
Fuck you, SugarFree. FUCK. YOU.
The truth stings. Walk it off, big guy.
Harris has written some pretty good stuff over the last few years, much (most, actually) of which I am inclined to agree with.
The thing is, his writing on Dr. Collins suggests that he (Harris) doesn't really get what the head of NIH's job is, or what it requires, namely: 1) proven experience in managing a very large, complex organization, and 2) a deep and broad understanding of modern biomedical research.
I'm no fan of Dr. Collins's incessant need to reconcile faith and science, but that's his business. More to the point, his qualifications for the job are pretty much beyond reproach.
Frankly, Harris comes off here sounding like the petty mirror image of the mentality that not believing in a higher being makes one amoral and thus unfit for public office.
Y'all are lucky that my god is a merciful god. Especially John.
Warty should be angrier at that Trading Outpost of Cy Young Winners, the Cleveland Indians.
"Cy Young winner for FOUR prospects! Sign me up!"
But not all theists are deists. Collins is not a deist. In any event using the word theist to include all believers (patheists, deists and theists) is confusing.
Ok, so if Harris had switched Zeus for Poseidon it would have been a better retort. Is that what you saying? Meaning, don't choose the head god of a pantheon when drawing parallels?
No, because it would still be ignoring the central proposition in Collins argument.
Good points all, but I think they ignore a major element in religious beliefs. Religions do provide explanation for "why things are the way they are" but those seem, to me, to be there primarily to support the more central issue. Religions are primarily about ethics.
That is currently how things are, but I would submit to you that this is because we regard statements about ethics to be non-falsifiable, and religion has been fleeing into the non-falsifiable for a couple of millennia.
To expand on Bailey's point, a relationship between religion and behavior was only postulated because people anthropomorphized phenomena they didn't understand. Men observed that if you didn't want you neighbor to kick your ass, you would do something nice for him - and reasoned that if you didn't want the nearby river, or the Sun, or the storms to kick your ass, you might want to try doing something nice for the "person" that was the river or the Sun or the storms. Religious codes of behavior weren't ethical at all - they were propitiary. They described the acts you should perform to get supernatural beings to either like you or fear you.
Religious codes of behavior only totalized over into ethics over time. Those are the religions that have survived, because the religions that made purely legalistic claims about trading sacrifice for good weather and the like were falsified, while religions that made ethical claims as well as teleological claims could fall back on their ethics when the other aspects of their faiths were falsified.
"John, are you denying the existence of your own self? your own consciousness?
there is nothing contradictory in saying that genetics plays a role in the reality in which you operate. For example, genetics can inform someone that they are at risk for cancer. You cannot "rise above" cancer, at least, not entirely. But you can choose to not smoke, to diet and to exercise.
Why is that so hard for you? And really, what is your point?"
Again, you compare apples and oranges. Jesus fucking H. Christ AO. At least try to argue the point. We are not talking about our bodies. We are talking about our minds. Of course your genes can affect whether you get cancer. But that is completely different than saying genes affect or control your behavior. So lets talk about the subject at hand.
"are you denying the existence of your own self? your own consciousness?"
No I am not. I am arguing just the opposite. I am saying we do have a consciousness that acts of its own free will and thus our genes are irrelevant to our actions and our thoughts. My question is what is your idea of our consciousness? How is it that we can have a consciousness that sometimes rises above our genes and sometimes doesn't? How does that work? It would seem to me that under an evolutionary view, there is no such thing as a "consciousness". There is just thinking and reacting that occurs as a result of the working of our minds. There rally is no free will; just stuff that happens. Does my computer have "free will"? No, it just gives out responses based on its wiring and the inputs that it gets. The human mind, if it is some kind of genetically created computer and nothing else, would seem to be the same.
That is my point. If you buy into genes determining behavior, you have to give up free will.
TAO,
there is nothing contradictory in saying that genetics plays a role in the reality in which you operate.
Exactly, and this is John's point, although he is arguing it poorly.
If genetics merely play a role, then there is some "me" that is not genetically driven. What is it? I (and John) would call it the soul. But if there is no soul, what else is there?
The nature v nurture doesnt apply. In the mechanistic world, nurture is just fine tuning the synapsis that the genes created. It is still a mechanistic means. Which implies no free will.
It should be his business. But since he's already decided a priori (and solely based on his faith) that materialistic neuroscience does not hold the answers to several questions regarding human nature then his faith becomes an issue.
Is everyone missing this point?
"An agnostic asserts that it is impossible to know if god exists. An atheist asserts that god doesn't exist."
Exactly my point. In order to assert with confidence that god doesn't exist, you have to have all the facts and found no evidence of god in them. You have to have searched the cosmos and not found anything to directly quote the article. An agnostic rejects the evidence put forth by believers as insufficient but knows that all the facts are impossible to have, making god's existence unknowable.
Neu: You are the river, your genes the rain.
How about:
You are the river, your genes are its banks.
Just a thought.
Fine. you have to "give up" free will. Good luck finding a ready replacement.
Which is what? That being a polytheist is more rational than being an atheist since of "all the possible worldviews, atheism is the least rational."
SugarFree, at least my team's likely quarterback is sexier than yours. Unless you're a Patriots fan, in which case fuck you again.
all that shit was so easy for me
Grandparents were Clement Atlee pinko's
Parents were Thatcherite statists
I remember watching "inherit the wind"
at a young age and ever since I've never seen a contradiction between traditional jesus masturbation and science evolution masturbation
no one knows shit anyway eh?
its like reality
that is such a heavy trip
being alive
no fucker can resolve that shit
what a feckin improbable occurrence
If you don't feel strangely emotional about the concept of being alive
your clearly just a commie
ahh
right
drugs
TAO,
I havent given up free will. That is because I believe in the soul.
Wrong. For the love of god, so wrong.
The burden of proof is on the asserter of a proposition. If tell you that invisible green goblins operate the engine of your car, the BoP is NOT on you to prove me WRONG. I have to prove myself correct.
I am just as comfortable asserting that there are no invisible green goblins in your car engine as I am asserting there is no god. Show the proof, and I'd be willing to revise.
Scientist say that my genes determine my behavior, unless I chose otherwise or just happen not to follow them. Sounds good to me.
Humans have instincts. Humans are trainable. Dogs have instincts. Dogs are trainable. Both can be trained to ignore some instincts.
Each animal has a unique ability to override it's instincts, and that ability is determined by genetics.
Fluffy,
That sounds like a nice just-so story, but I don't think I buy it. It ignores, among other things, the fact that religions also play an important role in control of human behavior. We can speculate about some proto-religion that did not contain this element, but I don't think I have seen any evidence for such a thing.
"Fine. you have to "give up" free will. Good luck finding a ready replacement."
How about we ditch the genes instead?
TAO---"Your genes determine, to a certain extent, the reality in which you operate. What you make of that reality is entirely up to you."
I enjoy the phrasing of that, thanks.
John--Where does this 'me' reside? IN YOU!!! YOU ARE YOU! Pinpointing the core of that existence isn't all that important.
Some people are born with congenital defects which affect them throughout their lives. Some aren't. Some are born 7'3" and play basketball. Some, myself for example, were born to be about 5'7" and be a shortstop.
NOW. These genes aren't sacrosanct, that's for sure, I agree with you there. If I had poor nutrition or was otherwise stunted in some manner I could be a half foot shorter. I could have poor bone density and a curved spine even with the presence of genes that tilt the scale away from that event.
Genes aren't the end-all-be-all, but to discount their importance is silly. Just as it is with environment. You restrict Socrates' access to people and books and you'll have a much "dumber" man as a result, even when he possesses a (presumably, I never met the man) genetic disposition towards knowledge.
You give an intellectually less-gifted person infinite access to information and they can raise themselves to a certain extent, a fuck-off to their genetic signature.
Nature and nurture are equally important and impossible to separate.
So, then what of materialistic concerns and proof, then?
Your poetry needs work, MonkeeHeadinSouth.
you do that, big guy. You just do that.
All: On the genes versus freedom argument, may I suggest my Reason interview with Dan Dennett about his book Freedom Evolves may shed some light on the topic. (Or at least I think so.)
As long as you are ignorant of the future then you maintain an illusion of free will that is sufficient to continue to operate. Most of modern religious apologia on the subject of Free Will is just to keep God from looking like an asshole; without Free Will, sin is nothing but entrapment.
"The burden of proof is on the asserter of a proposition."
Since when is "there is no God" not imply a massive number of affirmative assertions about the world? The best you can do is a tie with the theist. You can't win because you are making just as many assertions as he is. And neither one of you can offer proof.
strike through16 years ago"The branch of philosophy that studies existence is metaphysics. Metaphysics identifies the nature of the universe as a whole. It tells men what kind of world they live in, and whether there is a supernatural dimension beyond it. It tells men whether they live in a world of solid entities, natural laws, absolute facts, or a world of illusory fragments, unpredictable miracles, and ceaseless flux. It tells men whether the things they perceive by their senses and mind form a comprehensible reality, with which they can deal, or some kind of unreal appearance, which leaves them staring and helpless.
-Leonard Peikoff
"That is just nonsense AO. What is a "certain extent"? You are assumeing that there is a me outside of my genes and brain for my genes to act on. Where is this me? What is it? If there is this thing, called a brain and it is a machine governed by and created by evolution and its genes, where is the "me" to rise above what those genes are saying? "
Really. Please. Read "Personal Knowledge: towards a post-critical philosophy" by Michael Polyani. He covers this brilliantly.
The burden of proof is on the asserter of a proposition. If tell you that invisible green goblins operate the engine of your car, the BoP is NOT on you to prove me WRONG. I have to prove myself correct.
Unscientific. For the love of god, so unscientific.
I have designed enough experiments in my time to know that you don't rule something out until you can prove it can be ruled out. That includes green goblins in your engine.
Since when is "there is no God" not imply a massive number of affirmative assertions about the world? The best you can do is a tie with the theist. You can't win because you are making just as many assertions as he is. And neither one of you can offer proof.
Well, we certainly can't win with you.
That being a polytheist is more rational than being an atheist since of "all the possible worldviews, atheism is the least rational."
You are getting closer, I think, but you are still being very concrete. The issue being discussed is a dichotomy that includes "god(s)" or "no god(s)" so it doesn't matter which "god(s)" are placed into the counter argument. No matter which one you use, you are essentially just saying..."you're wrong" without any logical argument being put forward.
Ron,
That interview is nonsense. Basically he is saying that all our neurons are like Cartesian homunculi but somehow we are not machines and have free will. He is just fucking kidding himself.
strike through16 years agoJohn | August 11, 2009, 4:56pm | #
"The burden of proof is on the asserter of a proposition."
Since when is "there is no God" not imply a massive number of affirmative assertions...
The correct assertion is, "There is no evidence of a god."
Let he who proclaims a god's existence, prove it.
The burden of proof is on the asserter of a proposition.
This is true. If an atheist is asserting that there is no God, then the burden of proof is on them.
An agnostic doesnt have to prove anything.
I have designed enough experiments in my time to know that you don't rule something out until you can prove it can be ruled out. That includes green goblins in your engine.
I don't rule out god, and I don't think most atheists do either.
Since when is "there is no God" not imply a massive number of affirmative assertions about the world? The best you can do is a tie with the theist. You can't win because you are making just as many assertions as he is. And neither one of you can offer proof.
I think the tie goes to the runner so the atheists win on a technicality.
alright, Brian, believe what you like about those green goblins, yo. I don't care if you want to be stupid by choice!
Please tell me one assertion I make in that statement.
So, then what of materialistic concerns and proof, then?
What of them?
We can speculate about some proto-religion that did not contain this element, but I don't think I have seen any evidence for such a thing.
That's actually not true.
I'm not familiar with the work Bailey references above, but all the work I've seen on the belief systems that were the substrata for the earliest Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and proto-Hebrew religions makes it pretty clear that these organized religions grew out of similar bases. And the most common basis of all is the analogization of the human will to the motive power behind events in the natural world.
The archaeological, mythopoeic, textual, linguistic, and doctrinal evidence is pretty overwhelming. Then there's the fact that the ur-religion of fascinum, sacrifice, and taboo that the first institutional religions were built on survived in the "hinterland" well into the era of recorded history and was pretty well documented anywhere people wrote things down.
Fine, robc. I assert that there is no evidence for god. Back to you.
Agnostics are just pussies, anyway.
Alright. Looking forward to exorcising those green goblins out of your engine.
And hey, when I go to inject you with hemlock to cure what ails ya, don't say it won't work. Truth is, you don't really know.
First there was nothing. . .then there was Calvin!
Calvin, the mighty god, creates the universe with pure will! From utter nothingness comes swirling form! Life begins where once was void!
But Calvin is no kind and loving god! He's one of the old gods! He demands sacrifice.
Yes, Calvin is a god of the underworld! And the puny inhabitants of earth displease him!
The great Calvin ignores their please for mercy and the doomed writhe in agony!
John might want to enroll in a philosophy course or two. The question of free will is hardly a settled matter.
Soda,
Collins is asserting that "God is outside of nature" and "therefore no evidence from nature can be used to prove or disprove him." An argument against Collins' point needs to start with that premise and spin out consequences to show how that logic is flawed. Harris doesn't do that.
From Wikipedia:
"Atheism can be either the rejection of theism,[1] or the position that deities do not exist."
Anything short of completely ruling out the existence of god is agnosticism in my book.
Neu: Religions are primarily about ethics
Religions are primarily about money and/or power.
Religion, on the other hand, is primarily about being afraid of dying.
"Please tell me one assertion I make in that statement."
You are asserting that the universe exists for some other reason than God created it.
Where atheists go off the rails is when they start claiming that it is irrational to believe in God. That science precludes the existence of God. It does no such thing nor can it do such a thing. The existence of God is a matter of faith. At best it is a conjecture created in an attempt to explain our world. But it is and will be until the end of time a belief. But it is no more of a belief or conjecture than saying that something other than God created the universe. I really don't understand why atheists have such a hard time with that.
John | August 11, 2009, 4:11pm | #
Harris is no bigger a crank than the evolutionary biologists. If you want to explain our behavior based on our genes, then fine. But kiss free will good bye. Either genes determine how we act or they don't. If we can rise above our genes and make our own decisions (as Dawkins himself claims), then why do we give a flying fuck what our genes have to say? Further, just exactly what or who is doing the rising above our genes if the brain is nothing but a gene driven computer?
Apart from your confusing all evolutionary biologists everywhere with a strawman version of sociobiologists, the depth of your understanding is still astounding in its shallowness.
Stick to misspelling words, it's what you're good at, John.
All of you kids are missing the big picture:
The NIH should not even exist.
"John might want to enroll in a philosophy course or two. The question of free will is hardly a settled matter."
No shit. Wow that is news to me. Of course it is hardly a settled matter you dope. The point is that if you buy into evolutionary psychology you better be prepared for it to be settled in the negative.
Well put, Malto.
Until you present evidence otherwise, I rule out the existence of God, much like I rule out the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (BBHHH)
strike through16 years agorobc | August 11, 2009, 5:01pm | #
An agnostic doesnt have to prove anything.
Agnostics are intellectual cowards.
They sit safely and smugly on a fence and proclaim to the world, "Who am I to think?"
Nope. The Universe exists. You are asserting that the Universe + God exists. You are the asserter, here. I make no assertions, other than that gods do no exist, because you have no proof that they do.
Who cares? Abolish the NIH.
"Apart from your confusing all evolutionary biologists everywhere with a strawman version of sociobiologists, the depth of your understanding is still astounding in its shallowness."
Thanks for going on with your apparent depth of the subject and providing such a detailed rebuttal. Yelling "straw man" and nothing is a highly effective way to engage in an argument.
Free will both exists and doesn't. I never understood the whole "do we have free will" argument.
A group of friends is discussing the topic. One, a FW advocate, insists that he has it. "Ya see, I can drop this pencil right here on the floor. I choose to do that, it is my free will." He drops the pencil.
But this action proves the detractor's point. "If we hadn't been discussing the existence of free will you never would have thought of dropping your pencil at all. You would have had no reason to throw it on the ground."
We get prompts from life. I slam on the brakes when I see someone do the same ahead of me in traffic. Without their action I wouldn't have hit my brake in return. Is it free will when someone else's action made me react?
We can control the situation when it arises to some extent, however, the situation gets created without our consent or approval. It is empirically impossible to parse out the differences between how we react and how we WOULD have reacted had the situation been different. This is why I've never understood this free will notion. Free in relation to what?
It ignores, among other things, the fact that religions also play an important role in control of human behavior. We can speculate about some proto-religion that did not contain this element, but I don't think I have seen any evidence for such a thing.
Wait, I just reread what you wrote and I realized the full import of it.
If you're asking for evidence that early religion excluded ethics, then I don't even have to go to the ur-religion. I can just go to early Greco-Roman religions in recorded historical time.
The Roman state religion had virtually no ethical component and was concerned pretty much exclusively with legalistically fulfilling the ritual requirements the gods had placed on the city for the enhancement of its power. This was true nearly up to the time of Constantine. Ethics was the province of tradition, the state, and philosophy to the Romans and had very little at all to do with the gods.
The Greeks allowed a little bit more ethics to leak into their religion, but that was mainly in the context of the gods choosing to inflict severe punishments on those who had given them great offense, and the things that would give the gods great offense were similar to the things that would give a person great offense. Serving the gods human flesh at a banquet and telling them it was beef would piss the gods off and make them do bad things to you - but not because the gods were particularly concerned with murder; they just didn't like to be personally fucked with.
strike through16 years agoJohn | August 11, 2009, 5:08pm | #
Where atheists go off the rails is when they start claiming that it is irrational to believe in God. The existence of God is a matter of faith.
Faith is irrational by definition, John.
Fluffy,
I don't have time to expand, but I don't think the evidence for your assertions are quite so clear. For instance, assertions that current "primitive religions" are somehow equivalent to "proto-religions" seems unwarranted. I suspect that proto-religions predate any writing system, making any speculation about the details of their development just that...speculation.
There are some very reasonable assumptions going on in the arguments you are putting forward, but if we use current religious as a basis for speculating, I think they fall short of a complete picture because the ignore the social elements that are central to all modern religions (whether "primitive" or not).
"Until you present evidence otherwise, I rule out the existence of God, much like I rule out the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (BBHHH)"
That is just horseshit and you know it. Again, one is not like the other. We beat this to death on the other thread. In making the assertion about Pink Unicorns you are making an assertion about the world in which we live that can be tested and compared with observable fact. When you start making assertions about God, you are making assertions about things which you have no way of verifying. I am glad you don't believe in unicorns. But, that means nothing when it comes to the subject at hand.
The archaeological, mythopoeic, textual, linguistic, and doctrinal evidence is pretty overwhelming. Then there's the fact that the ur-religion of fascinum, sacrifice, and taboo that the first institutional religions were built on survived in the "hinterland" well into the era of recorded history and was pretty well documented anywhere people wrote things down.
Wouldn't those last three elements be part of exactly the type of control you are arguing wasn't a part of the proto-religion? Seems self-evident to me that if the only thing you can bring up to argue against the idea that religion always involved control is observations about religion controlling the way people behave, you lose, and pretty hard.
"We place no reliance On Virgin or Pigeon; Our method is Science, Our aim is Religion.
- Aleister Crowley
"I have designed enough experiments in my time to know that you don't rule something out until you can prove it can be ruled out. That includes green goblins in your engine."
Yep. As Donald Rumsfeld said, "There are unknown unknowns."
Agnostics are intellectual cowards.
Fuck off. How about that? Agnosticism is not a rejection of judgment, it is the result of sound scientific judgment. Atheism is made up of people who were molested by priests as children. It is a knee jerk reaction from one extreme to the other, not the result of sound logic and scientific thought.
"life. I slam on the brakes when I see someone do the same ahead of me in traffic. Without their action I wouldn't have hit my brake in return. Is it free will when someone else's action made me react?"
But you didn't have to slam on the breaks. You could have run over the prerson. You choose not to hit them. You chose for good reason; you are not a lunatic, you don't want to go to jail. But you choose nonetheless. Nothing forces you to slam on the breaks.
Fluffy,
We cross posted.
Gotta go...regarding your points about early Greek and Roman religious...I think you are placing a modern framing on the issue to exclude cultural practices that were very likely not distinct in the minds of the early Greeks and Romans from the domain of "religion."
This modern framing, it seems, IS largely a result of the success science has had for taking over many of the roles that religion played in people's lives.
Later.
In making the assertion about Pink Unicorns you are making an assertion about the world in which we live that can be tested and compared with observable fact.
You're willfully misumderstanding this. You can't test for the presence of pink unicorns, because they're invisible.
"No shit. Wow that is news to me. Of course it is hardly a settled matter you dope. The point is that if you buy into evolutionary psychology you better be prepared for it to be settled in the negative."
Who cares if it is settled in the negative? Won't effect me at all. It will just be, reality. See this is why you are very irrational. You are already invested (heavily it seems from your emotional responses) in one outcome or another. I don't care if there is free will or not. Because I don't need it to prove anything one way or another. You put the cart before the horse. You: I want to/currently believe X, therefore Y and Z must also be true because they have to in order for X to be true. Good luck with that.
Not accepting an unconvincing argument is not a form of faith. Unless you want to soften faith into being a position that accepts unconvincing arguments, i.e. naivete.
strike through16 years agoBrian Lockwood | August 11, 2009, 5:17pm | #
Agnosticism is not a rejection of judgment, it is the result of sound scientific judgment. Atheism is made up of people who were molested by priests as children.
Ha ha ha! Best retard reflex yet! 4 stars!
"Faith is irrational by definition, John."
Bullshit. I have faith in lots of things. I have faith that atoms exist. I have never seen one nor actually conducted an experiment that proves they exist. I only think they exist because I have faith that the people who tell me they exist are not lying to me. I have faith that things in history happened as they did. In the end, the only reason I know about them is what I read and I have faith that those books are correct. My entire everyday existence depends on any number of acts of faith in things that I have no personal knowledge of or reason to think are true other than my faith in information provided by other people.
Atheism is made up of people who were molested by priests as children. It is a knee jerk reaction from one extreme to the other, not the result of sound logic and scientific thought.
I've never seen an agnostic who hates atheists before.
But you didn't have to slam on the breaks. You could have run over the prerson. You choose not to hit them. You chose for good reason; you are not a lunatic, you don't want to go to jail. But you choose nonetheless. Nothing forces you to slam on the breaks.
More likely...the "you" John is talking about (his conscious awareness, his ego, whatever) had nothing to do with the decision. Your brain reacted to the situation and sent an update to the higher order systems after the fact. This does not imply that those higher order systems could not have put together and implemented a plan to over-ride that reaction, but unless they were expecting the situation, there is little chance that they "decided" to slam on the brakes.
You guys are still talking about D.O.G.?
"Who cares if it is settled in the negative? Won't effect me at all. It will just be, reality."
You are right. It won't affect me either. But the evolutionary biologists need to shut the fuck up about our being able to rise above our genes.
For the record, I am not entirely convinced we have free will either. So your whole post is irrelevant. I am not putting the cart before the horse. I am calling out evolutionary biologists for not being consistent and ignoring the implications of their own views.
strike through16 years agoJohn | August 11, 2009, 5:21pm | #
"Faith is irrational by definition, John."
Bullshit. I have faith in lots of things. I have faith that atoms exist.
Atoms exist without your approval, John.
I find Brian's militant agnosticism refreshing.
"More likely...the "you" John is talking about (his conscious awareness, his ego, whatever) had nothing to do with the decision. Your brain reacted to the situation and sent an update to the higher order systems after the fact. This does not imply that those higher order systems could not have put together and implemented a plan to over-ride that reaction, but unless they were expecting the situation, there is little chance that they "decided" to slam on the brakes."
True, but then it is just a reaction like pulling your hand from a hot stove. No question we have reflexes. I think his point was deeper than that. But maybe not.
I've never seen an agnostic who hates atheists before.
Just the smug ones.
"Atoms exist without your approval, John."
As does G-d.
The burden always rest on the person asserting something rather than nothing.
You tell me a zombie is behind me. I turn and cannot see it. I don't hear shuffling moans. I don't smell decaying flesh. I can't taste the corruption of flesh. I cannot feel it's putrescence. When you continue to insist it is there, the burden is on you.
Religions are primarily about ethics.
Nope. This implies that Atheists are unethical, which is not true. I believe ethics and morality preceded religion.
For the record, I am not entirely convinced we have free will either. So your whole post is irrelevant. I am not putting the cart before the horse. I am calling out evolutionary biologists for not being consistent and ignoring the implications of their own views.
I don't mean to be crass here, but I think this says more about your understanding of evolutionary biology than it does about evolutionary biology. They are not ignoring the implications of their views, they are ignoring what you infer based on your incomplete understanding of the theory.
No I am really out.
"Atoms exist without your approval, John."
How do you know? Ever seen one? Ever actually conducted an experiment that proves they exist? You just share my faith. It is a good faith, but faith nonetheless.
John---I appreciate what you're saying but it misses the point (not that you necessarily do).
In preserving my life, yes I did have choice (*see below) to pump the pedal and avert bodily harm. That part I have control of, yes. But I don't make a habit of stopping suddenly on the interstate. I never would have stopped of my own volition unless I saw the danger ahead, the stopped van just over the bend. My point is that if I am forced to react to something in a manner that I normally wouldn't, the charcoal line of free will has been thoroughly smudged by the finger of happenstance.
*I'd even go so far that I didn't have a choice to hit the brakes. You recoil away from a hot stove touched; deer are instinctively recoil in fear at the smell of wolf piss. DANGER DANGER! We are all programmed to avert pain/misfortune as much as possible. It's not a choice when you flinch at the sound of a gunshot. Instinct is the anti free will.
This doesn't have enough name-calling yet.
John, I assert that you are a child molester, and furthermore, you habitually eat your neighbors' pets. How do you like that, faggot?
strike through16 years agoJohn | August 11, 2009, 5:27pm | #
"Atoms exist without your approval, John."
How do you know? Ever seen one?
Ever heard of a scanning electron microscope, John?
Wouldn't irrationality be a rejection, or one kind of another, of available information.
Information about the existence of God is not available, the "rationality" test does not apply. If I claimed that Zeus lived on top of a mountain, you went up there, and he wasn't there, my belief in Zeus would become irrational. However, there is definitely no testable hypothesis that could prove or disprove modern theism.
"They are not ignoring the implications of their views, they are ignoring what you infer based on your incomplete understanding of the theory."
Uh huh. You and AO and Indominate one say that but then you never bother to explain what the full understanding of the theory is. I understang the theory quite well. In the end, the "full understanding" is just more mental gymnastics to avoid the underlying problem; if genes only matter when we chose not to ignore them, they don't matter.
wayne | August 11, 2009, 5:27pm | #
Religions are primarily about ethics.
Nope. This implies that Atheists are unethical, which is not true. I believe ethics and morality preceded religion.
You can photograph atoms with an election microscope. Even the smashed bits of atoms leave trails in tracing mediums in colliders.
He does. Collins contradicts himself by believing "God is outside of nature" AND believing that the man Jesus is God himself.
Deity/no deity is unanswerable with the evidence at hand. The needless complexity argument really doesn't hold much water either way, because our understanding and perceptions are so limited.
Obviously, the argument is different if you want to defend a specific god or religion (beyond relying on the faith argument, anyway).
strike through16 years agoServing Christians is like kicking kittens. I've had enough for one day. Have fun, kiddies, and don't forget to say your prayers.
"Ever heard of a scanning electron microscope, John?"
What is that other than a magic box that someone tells you does x? Seriously. You act on the assumption that it is true and have faith that they are telling you the truth. We think and we hope that it is. But in the end, for someone who is not actually working with and understanding the machine, it is no different than hearing the oracle speak.
John,
That's a pretty relativistic attitude for someone who claims to know about an absolute truth of reality (despite the lack of evidence).
Theists live their lives assuming their green goblin (God) exists.
Well, that's the path to extreme skepticism if we distrust our ability to perceive nature. That position may be ultimately correct, but I don't find it useful.
If genetics merely play a role, then there is some "me" that is not genetically driven. What is it? I (and John) would call it the soul. But if there is no soul, what else is there?
You have wide latitude to conduct your daily affairs, but your conduct is modulated by your abilities and inherent limitations. you can't breathe underwater, or fly, or run at 60 miles per hour because you are not genetically equipped to do those things. The notion that evolutionary science claims that all that you do preordained is just wrong, but that does not in any way damage the fact that you are a DNA derived being.
If you think genes don't matter, try willing your eyes to change color.
The burden always rest on the person asserting something rather than nothing.
You tell me a zombie is behind me. I turn and cannot see it. I don't hear shuffling moans. I don't smell decaying flesh. I can't taste the corruption of flesh. I cannot feel it's putrescence. When you continue to insist it is there, the burden is on you.
Whether a zombie is behind you or not is a testable fact. Proving the existence or non-existence of some sort of god is untestable.
Wouldn't those last three elements be part of exactly the type of control you are arguing wasn't a part of the proto-religion? Seems self-evident to me that if the only thing you can bring up to argue against the idea that religion always involved control is observations about religion controlling the way people behave, you lose, and pretty hard.
If by "last three elements" you mean "fascinum, sacrifice, and taboo" then you haven't really understood my point.
In this discussion, I am considering ethics to be synonymous with morality - the set of rules we have for how human beings should act with other human beings. Fascinum, sacrifices, and taboos make up the rules for how you should act to please the gods and to get what you want. [And/or avoiding angering the gods.] Those are only "ethical" concerns if you define ethics pretty broadly.
An ancient Etruscan saying "Hey, I better grab on to this tiny sculpture of a phallus to make sure the spirit of the forest doesn't put a curse on me" is more like one of us taking an aspirin or putting iodine on a cut than it is like making a moral decision in modern terms. When you put iodine on a cut, are you making an ethical decision? Or are you proceeding in the most prudential way available to you based on your current understanding of the world?
I am asserting that early religious "calls to action" were proto-scientific and legalistic, but not ethical in the way the term is being used in this thread.
Why? It's an empirical assertion of a fact. It's either true or it's false. Perhaps it's practically impossible to test it given the great powers ascribed to God, but it's not in principle so. At any rate it's still fallacious to assert something's existence when there is no evidence for it.
John and all: Since people are bandying about the term "faith" I thought I would go to the source, namely, the Bible. As Hebrews 11:1 states in the New International Version:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Sounds about right to me.
Brian Lockwood,
Nope. Asserting an untestable fact is the problem, not pointing out that a fact is untestable. Once again, the burden is on the assertion that something exists. I don't have to prove the zombie isn't behind me. I don't have to prove God doesn't exist. I don't have to prove that Superman doesn't live in the sun.
Forcing someone to prove a negative in order to advance an argument is a move of bad faith.
And let's not forget St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of god:
1. God is the entity of which nothing greater can be thought.
2. It is greater to be necessary than not.
3. God must therefore be necessary.
4. Hence, God exists necessarily.
With this kind of argument combined with faith, who needs evidence?
Says you. What if I assert that one of the tricks of the zombie is to make you think there is no spoon zombie?
I do wish that theists would drop the "Atheism is a form of faith" line of argument.
If, to an atheist, faith in God is insufficient, then asserting that the lack of faith in God is also a faith only accomplishes asserting that both are insufficient, not the superiority of the faith in God viewpoint.
In shorter, cruder terms: When called a retard, the retort "You're a retard too!" is not a very useful argument and certainly not counterevidence.
I think you are placing a modern framing on the issue to exclude cultural practices that were very likely not distinct in the minds of the early Greeks and Romans from the domain of "religion."
I would say that to people living "inside a horizon", as Nietzsche would put it, a lot of questions we think are obvious simply don't come up.
"Why should I not murder my father?" was not a religious question, for the simple reason that it wasn't a question. The Socratic method of doubting ethical propositions and searching for reasonable answers for them actually requires a civilization of great sophistication to support it; before the day they met Socrates, most people would not have understood this to be a question that required answering.
A religious question was "How can I get it to rain on time and in the right amount?" long, long before it was, "Will God be mad at me if I steal?"
Please say "pun intended." Hah!
and, of course, atheism is the natural state of a rational mind. It is only the irrational mind that believes things exist without any shred of evidence.
Hence why agnostics are intellectual cowards.
Libertarians... it's all about personal freedom until someone uses that freedom to believe in something utterly nonrational, then it's like a pack of wolves on a wounded deer. Frankly, I don't see how the belief in God is any more or less rational than the belief that government can be involved in science and do more good than harm.
Not going to happen. Making the argument symmetric and hiding behind word games is all theists have left.
That argument will live forever along with:
"That's not atheism, that's agnosticism."
"'New' 'militant' atheists are as fanatical as religious fundamentalists."
Anything that gives the appearance of leveling the playing field will be used. Time is spent addressing semantics instead of the invisible clothes of their emperor. It works!
Jose - maybe you are confusing libertarians with libertines? I never advocated anything about government action in re: theism. So, how does this argument somehow implicate libertarianism, again?
I hate the notion that for me to be a libertarian, I have to personally condone stupidity. I just don't want stupidity outlawed.
Harris obviously just wants to get his name out there again. Francis Collins scares people like Harris and Richard Dawkins (whom I do have much respect for as a scientist and writer), because he shows that you don't have to be a Bushite creationist to be an evangelical Christian.
I personally find it completely feasible to think that science is discovering God's way of doing things. If one doesn't agree, that's fine, but you can't throw someone out of the profession for it.
With this kind of argument combined with faith, who needs evidence?
If the argument was sound, you might have a point. The axioms require to construct that are amazingly obtuse. The main one being that human thoughts bring things into being.
For Ron Bailey:
1. Do you know what a priori truths are?
2. Thomas Aquinas said Anselm's argument was fallacious. Pulling it out is a straw man.
3. Have you ever encountered the modern ontological argument? See Plantinga, Alvin. Then talk.
4. You make me sad that I subscribe to Reason.
So what? What's anti-libertarian about destroying someone else's stupid arguments? Feel free to believe any nonsense you want. I'll feel free to tell you your beliefs are nonsensical. I see no contradiction here. All I see is some whining.
Please say "pun intended." Hah!
Not really, there was no more appropriate a term to use. We see a lot of bad faith arguments around here, for both lulz and in furtherance of intellectual dishonesty. (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in this discussion.)
Do you?
The modal ontological argument is just as much nonsense as the original. Feel free to quote me on that.
Tony,
Let me revise. It is untestable given the limits of human observation. Find me some data from before the universe began and maybe we can start making some conclusions.
SugarFree,
I am not asserting an untestable fact like some theist. I am saying that when something is untestable it becomes unknowable. That is the proper scientific position. Because the existence or non-existence of god can not be tested, it is unknowable.
It is time to stop pointing fingers!
Fingerpointing gets us nowhere!
Steve!
Because we cannot test for invisible pink unicorns, we cannot know if they exist.
"Says you. What if I assert that one of the tricks of the zombie is to make you think there is no spoon zombie?"
My life time of experience experimenting with zombies have proven this to be false. Only Vampires have this power.
Jose Ortega y Gasset | August 11, 2009, 5:54pm | #
Libertarians... it's all about personal freedom until someone uses that freedom to believe in something utterly nonrational
I can't speak for anyone but Me, but as far as I'm concerned, individuals can believe in anything they choose, so long as they don't knock on my door in the middle of the night and tie me to a stack of firewood. I draw the line at being a human steak for the amusement of irrational yahoos.
Let's be honest. If the guy was mainlining heroin he would have no shortage of defenders on H&R. It's just that religion is a nonrational behavior that pisses off many libertarians, while self-destructive drug use... not so much so.
And this isn't a question about legality. It's a question about whether or not a qualified person should be denied a job because of unrelated nonrational beliefs. So, I think the Orioles could win the pennant next year... which is about as likely as discovering definitive evidence of God. Is that relevant to my ability to hold a particular job?
For the most part, I think almost every human holds some nonrational beliefs. To the extent the practice of these beliefs doesn't cause harm to anyone else... so fucking what? I don't know what it is about religion that makes the H&R people nuts, but it does. I would bet a buffalo nickel that any thread on religion is triple the median length.
@ Angry Optimist:
Yes and OK.
@ Lockwood:
"I am saying that when something is untestable it becomes unknowable."
How do you know that? Did you test it?
If it affects their profession negatively, why not? Harris is writing an article where he states his opinion about that very fact. He's not taking Collins by the lapels and throwing him out of the window of a science building. He's saying Collins holds some beliefs that would affect scientific inquiry.
Again, for the nth time, Collins believes some avenues of scientific inquiry are a waste of time SOLELY BASED ON HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
Is anybody ready to contest this fact?
Or is this all about how Harris comes across as a crank, just wants publicity, or is as fundamentalist as his opponents? Because if so, we've already covered that.
John Singleton: I am sorry you are sad. Have you heard of a concept called "irony"?
Except they are not unrelated. That is the main point of the article by Harris!
Because we cannot test for invisible pink unicorns, we cannot know if they exist.
Pretty much. If there is no observable evidence, then there is no way in which they can influence our universe. If that is the case, the question becomes irrelevant. It so happens that is the same category I put the question of god.
I suppose one problem is what question does "a deity" answer? If it's a question of what created the universe (if that question has any meaning), then "a deity" is an unprovable hypothesis. But it's not necessarily superfluous, because something has to explain the event (even if the answer is ultimately it's always been here).
As for some superior level of consciousness, well, what does that even mean? Maybe it's gods all the way up? Maybe the whole universe is conscious? Hell if I know. But I do find the whole argument over whether it's okay to even contemplate a deity rather pointless.
Back to the point of the thread, what someone in that position thinks about religion is irrelevant unless it hampers his thinking about science. Plenty of scientists have been theists, after all.
Religion or not, what scares me is certainty. It's the people who are perfectly confident in their world view who are most frequently barbequeing other human beings.
I agree. If it doesn't harm anyone else. Believe what you want.
I still don't get what's the problem with people stating their opinions regarding religion. Yes, I think religion is dumb. So what? You're annoyed these religious threads are long? You're annoyed libertarians care more about theists than heroin addicts? To use your own words "so fucking what?"
...then it doesn't exist until evidence at such time is demonstrated. The end.
The beauty of militant agnostics is that they do not kill for their beliefs. They merely place their enemies in a state of superposition between existence and nonexistence.
Untestable God is Untestable.
Jose Ortega y Gasset | August 11, 2009, 6:08pm | #
Religion or not, what scares me is certainty. It's the people who are perfectly confident in their world view who are most frequently barbequeing other human beings.
That's the sport of Christians, not atheists.
Brian Lockwood - did you test the notion that untestable things are unknowable? On what basis are you asserting that as fact?
Because the existence or non-existence of god can not be tested, it is unknowable.
I have no quibble with agnosticism. But unknowability lends no weight to proof of existence. Of the near infinite number of unknowable facts, why is the existence of God somehow privileged over the others? Because it is important to people? Unknowable means unprovable. Admitting that no proof can exist that would sway you backs agnosticism back into a very tight little corner.
What scares me is certainty of uncertainty. You certain you're uncertain?
Just because people are confident in what they believe in doesn't mean they'll hurt others. On one side you have people like Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens et al writing books, essays, and articles. On the other side you have people strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing themselves up in a crowded market. If you think the prudent place to be is in the moderate "uncertain" middle, that's all fine and good. But please, let's not make false equivalences here.
Not one of the so-called new atheists are 100% "certain" God doesn't exist. Not one. So, I guess I'm not sure who you are referring to when you bring the word "certainty" into the mix.
It's always entertaining (for Me) when people attempt to assert the irrational by using rational means (language). "We can't be sure of anything, and I'll prove it with my argument!"
wait a minute.
I am certain that no god exists.
I will revise my position when evidence is presented. Just as I am certain there are no green goblins in my engine block, I am certain there is no god.
That isn't faith, by the way.
Jose Ortega y Gasset,
Religion concerns libertarians, especially the atheist variety, because of its inherent nature as an hierarchical and authoritarian construction. If religion asserted no right to dictate the behavior of non-adherents, criticism of it in these parts would dry up mighty fast.
"Back to the point of the thread, what someone in that position thinks about religion is irrelevant unless it hampers his thinking about science. Plenty of scientists have been theists, after all."
Bingo. There is a difference between acknowleding that guy has some nonrational beliefs and the assertion that those nonrational beliefs will lead to materially different decisions related to his job.
As for these threads, you miss the point. The length is not annoying, but demonstration that the mention of religion can provoke the super-rationalists of H&R to act in a rather nonrational, even Pavlovian, manner.
And human cruelty is hardly the exclusive franchise of religion, let alone a single religion. Stalin didn't order the Great Purge on the orders of Jesus.
All ontological arguments are simply exercises in begging the question.
Threads like this remind me of this MST3K sketch.
On what basis are you asserting that as fact?
About a decade of science and engineering experience. You can take the position that anything not proven true must be false, but when an engineer does that, people die. Anybody ever heard of the Challenger disaster?
Yes, there is a difference. Harris is stating that he believes Collins "nonrational beliefs will lead to materially different decisions related to his job." He has provided examples using Collins own statements. Care to address them?
Yes. Considering 95% of the world's population believes in god(s) it was bound to happen. And when it doesn't affect science then that's fine. When it does it usually leads to bad science. And even if the best case is what ends up happening it still doesn't mean that the theist scientist doesn't have cognitive dissonance going on. Very smart people are quite capable of holding conflicting beliefs. The conflicting beliefs don't cease to be conflicting just because some people are able to hold them concurrently. This, incidentally, is addressed in the article by Harris.
Has anybody actually read it?
ah, I see. You don't know the difference between logical certainty and rational prudence in systems with serious consequences for minor error.
Let's talk about Challenger, though: let's say that you presented absolutely no evidence that the O-rings were faulty. You scrap the mission anyways? On what grounds?
Brian Lockwood | August 11, 2009, 6:24pm | #
Anybody ever heard of the Challenger disaster?
The Dodge Challenger? It's bankrupt, just like religion.
Fluffy, I don't see how taboos don't almost necessarily contain either an ethical component or an authoritative control element, or both. Example, incest taboo- now, at least, we would call this dealing with morality. A taboo on going where bodies are buried, or past a certain post away from the village - these are definitely forms of authoritative, indirect control. A taboo against marrying a woman from your tribe's ancient enemy - this is clearly going way beyond superstition into realms of ethics [her ancestors killed yours] and control [you can't marry her because i say so].
I'm retracting this statement. Make it, "sometimes leads..."
Pavlovian? Maybe. Nonrational? Why?
"If religion asserted no right to dictate the behavior of non-adherents, criticism of it in these parts would dry up mighty fast."
Bullshit. I think for many libertarians, the grudge against religion is personal. Maybe a priest stole someone's lunch money, or sexually abused them. Whatever happened, it's unlike the reaction to other nonrational behaviors.
As for religion, it is largely impotent in the modern world without the power of the State. The Jehovah's Witnesses can knock on my door, but they can't raid my house with a SWAT, imprison me, sell my house on a trumped up drug seizure conviction and tax me to pay for it all. Take care of the State and religion will take care of itself.
Al Qaeda?
Admitting that no proof can exist that would sway you backs agnosticism back into a very tight little corner.
Ha, suddenly the intellectual coward is being stubborn by not being an atheist. I never said that no proof can exist that would sway me. I am saying that I am sure that the proof can not be obtained.
I'm not sure why research into the sources of religious belief would necessarily prove that those beliefs are invalid. It's like arguing color doesn't exist because we've figured out how the visual cortex works.
For the record, I've never been hurt or raped by a priest. I just like this topic more than others. Is this nonrational?
I agree with Jose. As a Catholic, anyway, we finally came around and embraced freedom of religion.
Using my own religion as an example, the only areas the Church is involved in politically involve moral issues the government has given itself authority to enact or ban [abortion, death penalty, stem-cell research]. Settled issues that government doesn't pretend to have authority over- free speech and religion, freedom of association, etc, are left alone.
The State being involved in every aspect of life forces religion to compete on that playing field, instead of being a personal choice.
sure, blame the State if you want, but realize that it's your system of belief (that the universe is unknowable, that we are all sinners, even newborns) that is fundamentally anti-human and enables the State. Like the lady said, Attila could not exist without the Witch Doctor.
I know an agnostic priest who favors a Public Option healthcare plan. Discuss.
Attila could not exist without the Witch Doctor
Careful, TAO...mention Ayn and this thread will go ballistic.
Oops.
It wouldn't necessarily. Except religious experiences are supposedly supernatural. Color is not. If you can replicate a religious experience using only natural means then that would be interesting.
It's just that religion is a nonrational behavior that pisses off many libertarians,
I can't speak for libertarians, but my issue with religion is that they seek to codify their morals into laws.
It is also upsetting to see people treat belief in fairy tales as sacrosent or something that deserves some kind of inherent deference.
Why does our society treat people who believe in angels as rational, but people who believe in the tooth fairy as loons?
Both have the same amount of proof of their existance.
Brian Lockwood,
You believe the proof to sway you cannot be obtained, but that is somehow the intellectually superior of the belief that the unprovable is not evidence of God? You are the one who gave credence to not siding with either of two untestable assertions. But they are not equal assertions. You admit that. This makes little sense.
Again, I don't care if you are an agnostic. No one here does, I would imagine. You defensiveness suggests you are still struggling with your beliefs. I hope you work it out.
oh ho. I'm going to leave this one alone.
I am still wildly curious if we Brian thinks we should have scrapped the Challenger mission with no evidence that there was anything wrong.
What an odd belief.
Is your pointing this out to us personal as well? And what if it's personal? Presumably we all come about our interests and intellectual niches in different ways. What does that have to do with the validity of the content?
I guess, I just don't understand your problem with (some) libertarians caring about religion.
It wouldn't necessarily. Except religious experiences are supposedly supernatural. Color is not. If you can replicate a religious experience using only natural means then that would be interesting.
No problem...just figure out how to induce a temporal lobe seizure.
Color is, technically, a feature of subjective perception, not a feature of the external world. Subject experience is a subject that has been pretty tough for science to tackle in a serious way...whether it is "supernatural" is one of the questions up for grabs in this debate (see John above).
My mean-ass wife is home. I'll check back in later.
I think for many libertarians, the grudge against religion is personal.
I have a grudge about churches geting a tax exempt status.
No, it isn't.
Why is it that every difficult question or currently evolving branch of philosophy or science is subject to argumentum ad God?
TAO,
Sorry, you don't get to define the boundaries of the debate. Many people feel that the existence of the soul is central to the debate...if the soul is put forth as an explanation for the question at hand, it is part of the debate. Many will assert that the "you" that experiences things is not material...is supernatural. Science hasn't figured out how to crack that nut yet, so it is still up for grabs.
It's both. Well, depends on how you use the word. The qualia is a feature of subjetive perception. "Redness" is qualia. "Red" is light with a certain wavelength. I think.
It might even be impossible for science to crack it. But if you think religion can tackle this problem in a serious way I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking that.
It might even be impossible for science to crack it. But if you think religion can tackle this problem in a serious way I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking that.
Depends upon what you mean by serious. Those who assert that it is explained by "the soul" are certainly serious in their assertion. It also has the feature of completely answering the question at hand for those that buy the argument. If you demand a materialistic explanation, of course, it will be unsatisfying.
And if "little green goblins" were put forth as an explanation it would be part of the debate too. Perhaps when we experience "redness" it's really a pink unicorn making is "feel" the red.
TAO,
With Challenger, the problem was that management required proof that the O-rings would fail at that temperature. What the engineers told them was that there was no evidence that they would work at those temperatures? All the tests they had done on the O-rings were above those temperatures. Common sense told them that the O-rings might be a problem. Obviously, the mission should have only proceeded if there was proof that the O-rings would work.
Sugarfree,
Nice move. Accuse the other side of insecurity and invoke pity. Well played. Atheism vs Agnosticism is one of my pet-peeves. Too often they are lumped together when they shouldn't be.
Soda,
You are making the same mistake that Harris makes. It doesn't matter what supernatural entity you use in your explanation...the disagreement is about whether there are supernatural explanations or not.
Right, because every open-ended scientific question should be subject to "GOD DID IT". That's a very valid and worthy way to bring the debate forward, there. Imagine if, instead of researching why some A bloods were compatible and some not, instead of looking and discovering Rh factors, we just said "GOD WILLS IT!"
Whatevs, man. You have weird standards of what is valid argumentation, but that's your right.
By serious I mean this. If you can replace your explanation with anything else I can make up and both explanations have the same amount of evidence behind them, then neither explanation is serious.
Instead of using the placeholder "soul" why not just say "We don't know the answer that? We might never know?"
discordiamism is alritre
makes sense to me
finds pdf
Just prior to the decade of the nineteen-sixties, when Sputnik
was alone and new, and about the time that Ken Kesey took his first
acid trip as a medical volunteer; before underground newspapers, Viet
Nam, and talk of a second American Revolution; in the comparative
quiet of the late nineteen-fifties, just before the idea of RENAISSANCE
became relevant...
IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF THAT IT IS A MISTAKE TO HOLD FIRM BELIEF
Heaven is down. Hell is up.
This is proven by the fact
that the planets and stars
are orderly in their
movements,
while down on earth
we come close to the
primal chaos.
There are four other
proofs,
but I forgot them.
Her geneology is from the Greeks and is utterly confused. Either She
was the twin of Aries and the daughter of Zeus and Hera; or She was
the daughter of Nyx, goddess of night (who was either the daughter
or wife of Chaos, or both), and Nyx's brother, Erebus, and whose
brothers and sisters include Death, Doom, Mockery, Misery and
Friendship. And that she begat Forgetfullness, Quarrels, Lies, and a
bunch of gods and goddesses like that.
One day Mal-2 consulted his Pineal Gland* and asked Eris if She
really created all of those terrible things. She told him that She had
always liked the Old Greeks, but that they cannot be trusted with
historic matters. "They were," She added, "victims of indigestion, you
know."
Suffice it to say that Eris is not hateful or malicious. But She is mis-
chievous, and does get a little bitchy at times.
Then why didn't some intrepid engineer test the damn rings?
Look, whether O-rings will or will not fail at temperatures to which they will be subjected is not the same thing at all as saying "There is no such thing as certainty." Had they tested the rings, there would have been certainty as to whether they would work at X temperature.
I don't see the connection between that and this debate.
Except those championing supernatural explanations disagree on their flavors of explanation. Since all of these different supernatural explanations have the same amount of evidence behind them it undermines their strength. There are an infinite number of different and contradictory supernatural explanations. This is relevant. Wishing that fact away doesn't make it so.
Since no one has provided evidence for supernatural explanations I temporarily and conditionally conclude they are false. Worse, some people with supernatural explanations say their explanation is unprovable, unknowable, and/or unreachable. If that's so then it's not an explanation at all. It's just an arrogant way of saying "we don't know."
TAO,
Right, because every open-ended scientific question
If you are debating someone about whether or not a particular question has a scientific explanation or has a supernatural explanation, you are not having a debate about an open-ended scientific question (whatever that means).
By the way, this is very much the type of thing Collins believes and has stated explicitly. He genuinely believes some of this stuff will never be cracked by science because it is the realm of the supernatural. This is the exact point Harris is making. That Collins's religious beliefs will affect his decisions as the NIH director.
Again, anybody care to contradict the central argument Harris is making?
"With Challenger,"
commie blah blah Chernobyl who gives a shit
free marketeers are takin over
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX
Neu - you know what kills me? There is no way you believe this hokey "every time someone posits a supernatural explanation, it must be taken seriously!" BS. You're way too smart for that.
It's just an arrogant way of saying "we don't know."
Or a humble way of saying "we can't know" ?
There are an infinite number of different and contradictory supernatural explanations. This is relevant. Wishing that fact away doesn't make it so.
Wait, are we talking about string theory? ;^)
But back to the subjective experience question...there may not be a "material explanation" available even in priciple. Whether you call subjective experience an epiphenomena of neural firings or the soul, you are still might be talking about something that can't be measured directly. At that point, what is the difference?
show me a god and or a unicorn and I'll change my mind about their existence.
So shallow. How do you account for the existence of anything in the first place?
Also, consciousness has never been observed under a microscope, so obviously consciousness does not exist.
TAO,
The didn't have time to test the rings. It relates to this debate because NASA management were using the same binary reasoning that atheists use. Since X is not proven to be correct, then not X must be correct.
And as I have said before, I am not saying that certainty does not exist. I am saying that there are three categories. Definitely right, definitely wrong and unknown. Now, stuff in the unknown column can be put into one of the first two given the proper tests. In the case of god, or anything else outside of this universe, the proper tests are impossible for us to perform. It doesn't mean that these things are unknowable in the absolute sense. What it means is that they are unknowable for us given our current vantage point. It is like trying to measure forces or velocities in a spaceship with no windows. Without an outside reference frame, there is no way to know the true value or nature of what you are measuring. It doesn't mean that there isn't some truth regarding what is going on in the spaceship, it just means that the person in the spaceship can not get the whole picture. Such is our situation in this universe.
The Angry Optimist | August 11, 2009, 7:14pm | #
Neu - you know what kills me? There is no way you believe this hokey "every time someone posits a supernatural explanation, it must be taken seriously!" BS. You're way too smart for that.
That hokey would exist only in your own mind.
I never said anything of the sort. I said that if you are in disagreement with someone over the general validity of supernatural arguments, you are not in disagreement about a particular explanation, you are in disagreement about what counts as an explanation. Before you can proceed to evidence, you have to agree on what counts as evidence. If you can't come to an agreement on that, then you are just talking past each other.
The difference is that if indeed there isn't a material explanation then materialists can say "we don't know" or "we'll never know" or "the question was nonsensical to begin with."
It DOES NOT mean that there is a supernatural explanation. Much less that the real supernatural explanation is the one favored in your particular culture.
There are many natural things that we can't measure directly. Things we might not ever be able to measure. It doesn't mean these things are beyond nature and can be bent at will by a god or gods.
well, you said that the question is "up for grabs" in this debate. If it's up for grabs in this one, then it is up for grabs in any one debate and all arguments terminate at "God's Ways are Mysterious Ways."
The question of free will is hardly a settled matter.
It was settled by Rush in 1980.
Do you really feel that it is permissible to invent X, and then claim that we cannot know whether X exists, because we cannot test for it?
Well, either your God did it or nothingness is really really unstable.
Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?
God is a word for an imaginary thing. Consciousness is a word for something everybody observes every day.
It doesn't mean these things are beyond nature and can be bent at will by a god or gods.
Many who believe in supernatural explanations would agree with this assertion.
But more to the point. At some point an explanation of something has to serve a purpose. For questions that are not amendable to scientific explanations, the supernatural explanation may be more useful on a practical level. For a scientist, the utility may come in the form of putting aside unanswerable questions and focusing on narrow, more productive questions that do have (or may in principle have) material explanations.
Can science explain the subjective experience of the mind? Maybe. I don't think it is off the table. But there are certainly serious thinkers who disagree. Some may shuttle the topic off into the realm of "religion" other into the realm of "the unknowable."
Jesus Christ, Tony. If we could just get your politics straightened out, you'd be a mensch.
well, you said that the question is "up for grabs" in this debate. If it's up for grabs in this one, then it is up for grabs in any one debate and all arguments terminate at "God's Ways are Mysterious Ways."
It is up for grabs in this particular debate because neither side has any evidence for their position. When both sides are in the position of saying "well, I can't prove it, but I believe _________________" then it is up for grabs. This situation does not generalize to all questions.
Do you really feel that it is permissible to invent X, and then claim that we cannot know whether X exists, because we cannot test for it?
Wait, so we ARE talking about string theory?
TAO,
Thats a good point, but in the end I think it is more of a question of relevance. If someone comes to me with an idea that is completely untestable and by definition can have no impact on the world in which I live, then why should I waste anytime considering it, let alone bother passing any sort of judgment on the idea.
Triggered by something ev wrote above, I give you the only theological hyopthesis I have ever created:
God created the wave-particle duality of light in order to help me understand free will v predestination.
So, in other words, yes, theists get to always insert their $.02, validly, in every discussion on the unknown.
Dude.
TAO,
Curious about your response to this: Does life exist on other planets in our universe?
I understand what you're saying, Neu: that the question of "valid" is on the table. But it isn't. if you get to default to omnipotent "explanations" every time, why ask the question?
I'm not sure supernatural explanations are useful an any level. They are barely explanations at all. Just making stuff up without any backing can't be all it takes to deem something an explanation. I guess it does meet the requirements of the word "explanation" but it doesn't mean it's useful. What are you saying here? That a supernatural explanation, while untrue, might have beneficient properties?
You're right, if we can't agree on ontology the discussion is hosed. If making stuff up with no way to do interobjective checks is all it takes to "know" something, then any explanation is possible. I find that extremely unhelpful. I guess it has practical applications, perhaps in crowd control. I'd rather make those in the crowd less susceptible to this BS instead.
No. I am willing to revise my certainty on this statement when evidence has been presented otherwise.
But wait...were there bacteria on Mars? I forgot.
No. I am willing to revise my certainty on this statement when evidence has been presented otherwise.
At least you are consistent.
what I will say, though, Brian, is that at least the alien-believers have some reasoning on their side. To wit, that there are such-and-such Earth-like planets etc. etc.
But still - just because the odds are that you'll draw a Royal Flush doesn't mean it has to happen.
What does reality really really mean, man? If nothing is something, isn't it not nothing? Woah.
I was going to ask you about probabilistic answers. My answer to that particular question is "I don't know." My answer to "would you bet good money on extra-terrestrial life somewhere in the universe?" would be "Yes." This is based on what we know about biology and astronomy. I could lose the bet of course.
I understand what you're saying, Neu: that the question of "valid" is on the table. But it isn't.
I disagree.
Look. If someone says to you "this questions can not, in principle, be explained using science, but I BELIEVE the answer is X, for these reasons." There are not making an irrational argument, they are making an unscientific argument. To try and refute their position by saying that there is no scientific evidence to support their position just restates one of the propositions that they have already asserted.
To take that one step further and declare that, therefore, their beliefs are not valid is not, imo, moves the debate into the realm of "what counts as valid."
TAO,
Is libertarianism the best form of government?
Whatever your answer, please follow up with an answer to this question...
Do you KNOW your answer is correct or do you BELIEVE your answer is correct?
Is there a meaningful difference?
Or they are making an irrational AND unscientific argument.
Soda,
Perhaps, but not necessarily.
Just very very likely.
Yes. There is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Classical-Definition-of-Kno.svg
Color is, technically, a feature of subjective perception, not a feature of the external world.
Strictly speaking, this is not true. Color is a property of the wavelength of light.
Any sensory experience we could have that distinguishes blue from red is a result of the external world. How our sensory equipment arranges that data really isn't very important, as long as it arranges it.
Many will assert that the "you" that experiences things is not material...is supernatural.
If the soul exists, or if God exists, then they aren't supernatural. As soon as they actually exist, they are natural.
The entire distinction between supernatural and natural is something made up in western culture to try to create a place for religion to survive, after it being clear that none of its [remaining] propositions could ever be proven.
Fluffy, I don't see how taboos don't almost necessarily contain either an ethical component or an authoritative control element, or both. Example, incest taboo- now, at least, we would call this dealing with morality. A taboo on going where bodies are buried, or past a certain post away from the village - these are definitely forms of authoritative, indirect control.
Well, in my first post on the subject, I initiated the conversation by saying that religion leveraged itself into the field of a totalizing ethics relatively late in its history, and that the earliest connections between religion and behavior were propitiary. I didn't say there was no connection between religion and behavior.
Taboos and propitiary rituals are closer to primitive science than to our understanding of having a moral code of conduct; they're just really, really bad science. "I observed that we had a successful hunting trip when I rubbed that rock before we left, so I will do that every time," is a scientific observation - it's just a really bad one. "Obeying the ten commandments makes me a moral person," is a much different order of thinking.
Look. If someone says to you "this questions can not, in principle, be explained using science, but I BELIEVE the answer is X, for these reasons." There are not making an irrational argument, they are making an unscientific argument. To try and refute their position by saying that there is no scientific evidence to support their position just restates one of the propositions that they have already asserted.
They're not making an illogical argument, but they are making an irrational argument.
Those aren't the same thing.
Colloquially "rational" and "logical" are the same thing, but they're different words for a reason.
As somebody who grew up in a southern fundamentalist church and is now agnostic, I find atheists who insist on discussing their beliefs equally boring as Christians that insist on telling me about Jesus.
I respect your beliefs but they are simply beliefs and nothing more. Neither indicates a superior intellect, but instead, a choice.
I grant your decision no more IQ points than your ability to choose chocolate ice cream over vanilla. And by the way, there are 30 other flavors.
So please enough with the yammering about how chocolate ice cream lovers are so much more smarter than the others. Enjoy your ice cream but stop being a whiny bitch.
Yet, here you are to let us know about your boredom. Did you struggle much typing this words for us? You know, because you find us so boring and all.
Maybe you should heed your own advice.
"Look. If someone says to you "this questions can not, in principle, be explained using science, but I BELIEVE the answer is X, for these reasons." There are not making an irrational argument, they are making an unscientific argument. To try and refute their position by saying that there is no scientific evidence to support their position just restates one of the propositions that they have already asserted."
That is exactly right. Scientific atheists also way over sell what science can and cannot do. Science cannot ever tell the why. It can only describe the what. For example, nothing in science tells you why the gravitational constant is what it is. It could indeed be a lot of other numbers. Now, if it were there wouldn't be any life in the universe. But there still could be a universe and there is nothing to say that the universe must necessarily have life. There are any number of constants and things that just are in nature and defy any rational explanation beyond description. Further, if you changed any of them life would not exist in the changed universe.
Now why is that the case? The scientific atheist would say that that is the case for one of two reasons; either we hit the cosmic lottery and just happen to get a universe that allows for life or every possible universe exists somewhere and we by necessity live in one of the ones that has constants that allow for life. The theist would say that those constants exist as they do because God created it that way. All three answers are nothing but conjectures. The theist can't prove beyond doubt that God exist but the atheist can't prove he doesn't exist. Indeed, the atheist is left with the proposition that we live in an extremely rare and unlikely universe.
Even what we know about the universe utterly defies any sense of common experience of logic. No one has yet managed to unify quantum theory and relativity. And of course everyone is familiar with the strange things that happen at the quantum level. In the end, we cannot explain those things in any meaningful way. We don't know why light reflects from pains of glass at different rates in a recognizable predictable patter, we just know it does and how to predict it. There is no way to explain its behavior in understandable terms to our experience. But, as Richard Feynman once said "that is the universe, you don't get an explanation. If you don't like it, go live another universe".
Someone in another thread said that someday we will get a genius who will unify the two theories in a coherent, predictable and verifiable way. Maybe. Or maybe the existence of God reveals itself in that gray area we can only describe but not explain. We will never know until we get the theory. And as long as we don't have one, we can't dismiss God.
green mamba | August 11, 2009, 7:19pm | #
"show me a god and or a unicorn and I'll change my mind about their existence."
So shallow. How do you account for the existence of anything in the first place?
Why should I "account" for reality? A is A. Existence exists. A thing is itself. It isn't my task to prove that which is real. It's the mystic's task to prove the unreal, if he can.
John's entire August 11, 2009, 8:53pm post is a god of the gaps argument.
This is not as deep a conclusion as you think it is. Replace the word "God" with any unprovable explanation and you'd have the same thing.
Any specific examples?
"Why should I "account" for reality? A is A. Existence exists. A thing is itself. It isn't my task to prove that which is real. It's the mystic's task to prove the unreal, if he can."
But of course what you "see" and 'account" for is completely at odds with reality. My desk looks solid but in reality is almost entirely empty space. My hand on it is supported by electrons. The reality of what is going on at the smallest levels of matter is totally at odds with what we observe with our senses. And further exists according to laws we can only predict but cannot explain. So, I am not sure your "accounting" for reality buys much beyond "yes, you see and hear and have certain sensations."
"This is not as deep a conclusion as you think it is. Replace the word "God" with any unprovable explanation and you'd have the same thing."
I never said it was deep, whatever that means. It is just true. As they say, you don't like this universe go find another one.
"Scientific atheists also way over sell what science can and cannot do.
Any specific examples?"
When they constantly claim that science proves that God cannot exist and the belief in God is irrational.
"They?" That's specific? Who are "they?"
Further Soda, it is more than a God of the gaps, as if God only exists in the gaps. God reveals himself though the gaps. But that doesn't mean he doesn't exist in the rest of the universe as well or that the rest of the universe isn't how it is because he made it that way.
They?" That's specific? Who are "they?"
Richard Dawkins to name one. And of course the various people on this thread who repeatedly claim to know with scientific certainty that believing in God is no different than believing in unicorns.
Harris quoted in the posted article would be another. If believing in God is not to his mind irratonal, then what is his beef with the new head of NIH?
Not quite. Did you read "The God Delusion" or just the reviews?
Yes I did suffer through that book. And basically argues that because we can't explain how an omnipotant God works in ways that we can understand in ordinary experience, anyone who believes is psychotic. Dawkins is such a charming man.
Wait a minute now. Harris and Dawkins may believe that belief in God is irrational. But neither has said that science disproves God outright. Not only that, but neither man is 100% certain God doesn't exist. Dawkins does say that a THEISTIC god should be within reach of science. Or rather, that positive evidence should be detectable. The deistic god is out of reach by definition.
This is getting tiresome. But I'll repeat it... again... Collins believes certain scientific avenues are dead ends BASED ON HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. These scientific avenues may be rich in discoveries, but since Collins doesn't think certain aspects of human behavior can be explained by science then he won't encourage the pursuit of them. Note, again, his decision is not based on science but on religion. Is that clear enough?
"This is not as deep a conclusion as you think it is. Replace the word "God" with any unprovable explanation and you'd have the same thing."
Yes and there are people like Brian Greene who have tenure and large book contracts for doing just that.
As someone who believes that our understanding of human nature can be derived from neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science and behavioral economics, among others, I am troubled by Dr. Collins's line of thinking.
Considering that at least two of the means of understanding human nature in his list are only about a half step above astrology, I think this guy's opinion doesn't amount to a well formed turd.
I know you're being sarcastic but as it happens he IS pretty charming.
Either you didn't read it or you did not understand it. That is not what he says. But then you think Dawkins is certain God doesn't exist and that science "proves" God doesn't exist.
"This is getting tiresome. But I'll repeat it... again... Collins believes certain scientific avenues are dead ends BASED ON HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. These scientific avenues may be rich in discoveries, but since Collins doesn't think certain aspects of human behavior can be explained by science then he won't encourage the pursuit of them. Note, again, his decision is not based on science but on religion. Is that clear enough?"
No it is nto clear at all. You are just being smug to try to make it clear. Collins thinks the field of evolutionary pschology is crap. So do a lot of other people. Harris doesn't like that. It is at heart a scientific, not a religous disagrement. Collins' views may be based on her religion, but they still go to the limits of what science can and cannot do and what science is worth pursuing. That is a scientific disagreement.
"It isn't my task to prove that which is real. It's the mystic's task to prove the unreal, if he can."
By "mystic" I assume you mean "believer". It seems to me that it is nobody's task to prove their belief. "Belief" does not require proof.
I believe in the big bang but there is no proof of it. There is evidence but nobody has proven it. I believe in a lot of things, not because they've been proven to me but because I choose to weigh the evidence in favor of that belief.
Hell, I even believe in some of crazy things I've come to understand about Quantum Physics that my logical mind tells me are impossible. But after reviewing the limited information that a layman does, I choose to believe it even if it all sounds like mumbo jumbo voodoo magic.
Can somebody explain why that is rational?
Soda,
I would advise you to read Berlinzi's book The Devil's Dellusion. It sets Dawkins on his head and evolutionary biology while he is at it. On top that Berlinzi is a much funnier and better writer than Dawkins ever dreamed of being.
"Harris and Dawkins may believe that belief in God is irrational. But neither has said that science disproves God outright."
Science says that it is irrational, but doesn't disprove it outright. That doesn't even make any sense. If science can't disprove it outright, then how can we know it is irrational? And Dawkins arguments against a omnipotent God are completely tiresome. They are just a restatement of the "there is evil in the world and how could just a being actually exist? arguments." As if anything that doesn't conform to our every day understanding of the world and logic cannot possibly exist.
Bullshit. Here are Collins' OWN WORDS:
Wrong. For the love of god, so wrong.
The burden of proof is on the asserter of a proposition. If tell you that invisible green goblins operate the engine of your car, the BoP is NOT on you to prove me WRONG. I have to prove myself correct.
I am just as comfortable asserting that there are no invisible green goblins in your car engine as I am asserting there is no god. Show the proof, and I'd be willing to revise.
Pretty half ass reasoning, actually. I use that description because you have been obnoxious and irrational in your 'analysis' of agnosticism, as if to be agnostic was out of the bounds of reason. A ridiculous proposition, on the best of days.
Put the argument in a different perspective where there is little to no value to the person asking if he is right or wrong, unlike questions about God's existence.
The question: Is there a round blue pebble, the shape of a nicely formed marble, on the dark side of the moon.
There are three, broadly speaking, ways to answer this question:
1. Yes,
2. No,
3. I don't know.
Of course, the answer which mirrors agnosticism is the most logical one, my fallacious friend.
"If the Moral Law is just a side effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It's all an illusion. We've been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong atheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?"
What is religous about that? She is right. If moral law is just a side effect of evolution, then what validity does it have? How is there good or evil? If there is not, what scientific atheist is willing to stand up and live by such rules? None of course. Better to live in denial and have nihlism without the abyss.
You yourself implied this with unicorns. Do you think science can disprove unicorns? No. Do you know believing in unicorns is irrational? Probably.
John | August 11, 2009, 9:00pm | #
But of course what you "see" and 'account" for is completely at odds with reality. My desk looks solid but in reality is almost entirely empty space. My hand on it is supported by electrons. The reality of what is going on at the smallest levels of matter is totally at odds with what we observe with our senses.
Jesus Christ, John, your world is a terrifying place! If you don't have confidence in the solidity of your own desk, maybe you should just back...away...from...the blog. There you go.
"You yourself implied this with unicorns. Do you think science can disprove unicorns? No. Do you know believing in unicorns is irrational? Probably."
The example doesn't hold. I don't have day to day access to the divine. I do, however have day-to-day access to the world unicorns are supposed to inhabit. Since I do, I can make an educated guess about unicorns but not about God.
The better example, is are there pink unicorns somewhere in the universe? Well, there does not appear to be any on earth. But, it is a very large universe and it is not irrational to think there might be somewhere.
But of course God is not a unicorn. There is evidence of God. The evidence is in the existence of constants and the entire structure of the universe that can only be that way to allow for life. God, while not the only explanation for the structure (chance is the other likely culprit) is a possible explanation. That God as opposed to chance explains it, is a matter of faith.
Wow then you have really poor reading comprehension skills. One wonders how you treat the Bible, a much more complicated book.
"Jesus Christ, John, your world is a terrifying place! If you don't have confidence in the solidity of your own desk, maybe you should just back...away...from...the blog. There you go."
I have lots of confidence in my desk. But my confidence is really not based in anything but faith in my perceptions. It is not based on any real understanding of reality. What I percieve is not always what is going on.
Tony, if you don't like my interpretation of Dawkins, say why and say what you think he said. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
No, it's a matter of evidence. 'Faith' is just the free lunch you've award yourself for the virtue of having no evidence for your claim.
Are you serious? First of all Francis Collins is a "he" and second of all how is that argument scientific AT ALL? It's wishful thinking. We have evidence that reciprocity, altruism, revenge, sense of justice are based on evolution. We have plausible explanations based on game theory and statistics. It's a study in its infancy, but if it were up to Collins we'd have none of that at all.
Considering Harris and Dawkins are already sold on the idea and aren't going around murdering people I'd say you have your answer already. The answer? Pretty much all of us would still act morally. Maybe you wouldn't. Would you? Is that really all that's stopping you from committing atrocities John? Belief in God?
"Considering Harris and Dawkins are already sold on the idea and aren't going around murdering people I'd say you have your answer already. The answer? Pretty much all of us would still act morally. Maybe you wouldn't. Would you? Is that really all that's stopping you from committing atrocities John? Belief in God?"
That is hysterically stupid. "We would all act morally". What the fuck does that mean? That is the point, if morality is just a product of evolution, then you don't know what morality is other than whatever works for the species. Yeah, maybe reciprocity and kindness worked on the African plains, but now eugenics and killing off half the planet works better long term. Who knows?
That is my point about nihlism without the abyss. You admit in one point that morality is the product of evolution. But then act like the term "acting morally" has any meaning in the next sentence.
He's everything. He could be a unicorn if he wanted, no?
The alternative to God might not have to be "chance." Will Collins' encourage us to find out? Guess.
John,
Your conception of morality is by definition based on arbitrary first principles. It's been explained ad nauseum how your specific religious beliefs are arbitrary; i.e., they are as valid as any other claim that lacks all evidence. Your sense of morality is the nihilistic one.
What does that leave us with? Morality based on considerations other than "God said so." In other words being a grown up.
Because it does. And because secular moral philosophy exists you know. Look ma, no God! A.C. Grayling is a good example of a secular moral philosopher.
By the way, I meant "all of us" as in the scientific atheists you mentioned and myself. Not as in every member of the species. That would obviously not be the case. What's more interesting is the following question:
John, is belief in God all that's stopping you from randomly killing another man? Is that all that's stopping you from a nihilistic abyss?
"We have evidence that reciprocity, altruism, revenge, sense of justice are based on evolution. We have plausible explanations based on game theory and statistics. It's a study in its infancy, but if it were up to Collins we'd have none of that at all."
You have bullshit. Our ancestors are unavailable. Claims made on their behalf are unverifiable. The underlying tissue that connects the late Paleolithic and the modern era is the gene pools. Changes to that pool reflect a dynamic process in which genes undergo change, and by means of al the contingencies of life serve in each generation the purpose of creating another generation. It is precisely these initial conciliations that popular accounts of human evolution cannot supply. We can say of those hunters and gatherers only that they hunted and they gathered. And we can say this only because it seems obvious that there was nothing else for them to do. The gene pool that they embodied cannot be recovered. Evolutionary psychology is therefore anecdotal. It has no scientific value. Collins is right.
Collins and Harris are both wrong.
Collins is a bad choice for NIH, not because he is a Christian (most Western scientists have been Christians--people are good at compartmentalizing), but because he is totally PC when it comes to human differences. During the Watson controversy, he said Watson's comments about race and intelligence were
"the wildest form of speculation in a field where such speculation ought not to be engaged in."
That's a pretty strange attitude for a scientist to have.
Here's another gem:
"Genetic factors for intelligence show no difference from one part of the world to another", Collins said.
Really, are you sure about that? Collins will shut down any research into genetic causes of human differences.
But, Harris condemns Collins for the wrong reasons. The constitution explicitly forbids a religious test for holding office, and for good reason. Most of the time, a person's religion does not have an effect on how they perform their jobs. This includes being a scientist or director of the NIH. I would much rather the head of the NIH be a non-PC Christian than an atheist disciple of Margaret Mead.
PS: John, I have one word for you: compatibilism.
The fact that are actions are determined by genes and environment does not negate the idea of free will.
John, you seem to be a religious fundie with dubious intellectual credentials who hates liberals. This hardly qualifies you for membership in libertarianism, let alone the higher and more serious politico-economic schools. Maybe you should stop embarrassing yourself here. Not that I would shout you down. You do provide entertainment, and that's something. But really, saying "Shut the fuck up" to your detractors is hardly furthering the debate in any meaningful way.
"John, is belief in God all that's stopping you from randomly killing another man? Is that all that's stopping you from a nihilistic abyss?"
Under certain circumstances sure. Lots of people have murdered and did heinous things because they believed that doing so would bring about a better word. Or doing so would bring them profit. Murder is not the province of monsters. It is the province of every human heart. There is a famous story about the SS killing a group of Jews in Russia and one of the Jews saying just before he is shot "God is watching you". Of course the Nazi didn't think that God was watching him. The point is that there is nothing to say and indeed judging from human history no reason to believe that there is anything innately moral about man or any inner morality that will keep him from doing bad things.
"John, you seem to be a religious fundie with dubious intellectual credentials who hates liberals. This hardly qualifies you for membership in libertarianism, let alone the higher and more serious politico-economic schools. Maybe you should stop embarrassing yourself here. Not that I would shout you down. You do provide entertainment, and that's something. But really, saying "Shut the fuck up" to your detractors is hardly furthering the debate in any meaningful way."
You seem to have no idea what I am talking about. There is nothign "fundie" about me. If you can't make an argument without reverting to some word you heard on the Daily Show once, you might want to try a little harder next time.
"The fact that are actions are determined by genes and environment does not negate the idea of free will."
If my actions are determined by anything other than my will, how is my will free?
Rational Passerby,
John commits this act of self flagellation here at least monthly. It's a religious thing, you wouldn't understand.
It is entertaining though. 🙂
Let me get this straight. If you stopped believing in God you'd be ok with just randomly killing anyone you wanted? Just want to make sure you understood my question.
"Rational Passerby,
John commits this act of self flagellation here at least monthly. It's a religious thing, you wouldn't understand. "
Fuck off. If the counter arguments were any good, people wouldn't throw around words like fundie (as if it means anything and I would be one). Further, I am not the only one on the thread who doesn't by the claims of scientific atheism. There were at least two agnostics above. Radical Atheism is just religion for cowards and stupid people. It is just fashionable these days.
John is a human pi?ata! Why does he do it?
I care not. In fact, I retire to bedlam.
Good luck, John. Narcissism is indeed a rough road.
"Let me get this straight. If you stopped believing in God you'd be ok with just randomly killing anyone you wanted? Just want to make sure you understood my question."
I don't know. It would depend upon what I replaced my belief in God with. Further, suppose I got pleasure from randomly killing people. Or suppose it became clear to me that killing a certain group of people, say the bourgeoisie or Jews or black would make the world better? Certainly tons of people have bought into that idea. I guess the answer is not that I would necessarily do it. I can't imagine I would have a reason to or would get any pleasure out of doing so. But that I couldn't, in the absence of God, tell you why it was wrong to do so other than I felt it was wrong or some other BS explanation.
And then you write:
"John is a human pi?ata! Why does he do it?
I care not. In fact, I retire to bedlam.
Good luck, John. Narcissism is indeed a rough road."
And you are a moron who has nothing to add to the coversation. Clearly you are one of those people who has never questioned themselves or the world around them or held a thought or beleif that wasn't approved by the cool. Stop wasting people's time.
Wrong answer.
Good night!
"And then you write:
Radical Atheism is just religion for cowards and stupid people."
I stand by that. But I don't recall calling you a radical atheist.
Read the rest of the post Soda. You just don't have an answer.
If something is invisible, it cannot be pink, because pink is a function of visibility. Therefore we can say with certainty that invisible pink unicorns do not exist. That is all.
John, you sweetie, you're almost there. Just a little more invective and you'll have me convinced as to the obvious and overwhelming logic of your position. 😉
Jssa,
There is so much invective in
Lots of people have murdered and did heinous things because they believed that doing so would bring about a better word. Or doing so would bring them profit. Murder is not the province of monsters. It is the province of every human heart. There is a famous story about the SS killing a group of Jews in Russia and one of the Jews saying just before he is shot "God is watching you". Of course the Nazi didn't think that God was watching him. The point is that there is nothing to say and indeed judging from human history no reason to believe that there is anything innately moral about man or any inner morality that will keep him from doing bad things.
or
Our ancestors are unavailable. Claims made on their behalf are unverifiable. The underlying tissue that connects the late Paleolithic and the modern era is the gene pools. Changes to that pool reflect a dynamic process in which genes undergo change, and by means of al the contingencies of life serve in each generation the purpose of creating another generation. It is precisely these initial conciliations that popular accounts of human evolution cannot supply. We can say of those hunters and gatherers only that they hunted and they gathered. And we can say this only because it seems obvious that there was nothing else for them to do. The gene pool that they embodied cannot be recovered. Evolutionary psychology is therefore anecdotal. It has no scientific value. Collins is right.
So many insults there. So much invective. And so much fundementalist theology. My God, I must quoted Abraham seven times.
Clearly JSSA,
I am just a fundie. In fact, I don't even have electricity and I only read the bible. And I have never left the county I was born in. That is the way everyone is who isn't an Atheist right? That is how we all are?
I read it. The correct answer to "If you stopped believing in God you'd be ok with just randomly killing anyone you wanted?" is:
"NO."
Also acceptable: "Fuck No!" "Of course not, are you insane?"
Wrong answers:
"Yes."
"I don't know. It depends on blah blah blah."
Regarding the fundie/radical thing I wasn't saying you called me radical atheist (although if you learned more about me you'd come to the conclusion that yes, Soda is a radical atheist) but that you accused your opponets of not having good arguments based on them calling you a "fundie" but then you go ahead and do a similar thing yourself by calling "Radical atheists" "cowards" and "stupid."
Now I really have to go to bed. Maybe I'll check in tomorrow morning before work.
John, you little turd blossom, you miss the point. Invective is the best part of your argument. The rest is just drivel. 😉
Knock knock
Who's there?
Collins
Collins who?
Collins the new head of the NIH
"NO."
Also acceptable: "Fuck No!" "Of course not, are you insane?"
The point is that if there is no God, what basis do I have to say that killing is wrong? In the end I am left with saying that it is wrong because I say it is. I wouldn't do it myself and I think it is wrong, but I don't' think that quite settles the subject. Maybe there is some kind of morality based on evolution. Where you say that there are natural things that we should never do because it is bad for the species. But that seems like pretty thin gruel to me. There are lots of things, like killing the old and the weak or sterilizing people that would probably be good for the species in the long run. But I still am not buying them as a good thing.
Collins' is point is that if morality is based on our genes, then morality becomes really whatever any successful society does or whatever works for you and your progeny staying alive and in the gene pool. That is pretty relativistic.
And I apologize if I threw stones at you. You have made decent agruments and it has been an interesting conversation. It is Tony and Rational Obseverer who come in and make assertions and throw out insults that I have a problem with.
"John, you little turd blossom, you miss the point. Invective is the best part of your argument. The rest is just drivel. ;-)"
Yes because you have made so many intelligent points to help the conversation along. Yes we got it. Anyone who disagrees with you is a turd blossom fundie. Thank you for the insight. It was very helpful.
I see you came home and went on a Stupid Bender, John.
Well AO,
If you have anything intelligent to say about it, lets hear. If you are just here to throw insults and say nothing, spare me. Seriously, is engaging a point really that hard for you?
Seriously Ao,
You are normally a reasonably intelligent person. No one is saying you have to believe in God. Or that not doing so is demonstrateably wrong. The only point is that believing in God is not demonstrateably wrong either. I don't understand why that idea causes you to throw out insults? Does it really threaten you that much?
The irony of it all, and you are going to love this one, Dr. Collins will within the next year, due to diversity policies, approve of a research grant that goes to a small facility in San Juan. Seven years from now, a microbiologist at that facility is going to discover under a ultra high powered scope, a frog cell stamped with Serial Number #73646-7AF-18032656-676X Property of YHVH, Biiotchs!
After which you'll learn the technique for reading it, you will find it stamped on every cell of every organism. At that point, I'm going to turn around and smite all you atheist motherfuckers. Why? Because, I'm just that kind of God.
Wracj 'em up for the set up, and BAM!
Yes because you have made so many intelligent points to help the conversation along.
I paid my dues in the last conversation, and the one before that. It's a low paying job and I'm bored with it. I'd have to have uh, faith in a payoff before I invest any more time in providing substance. 🙂
This,
Maybe there is some kind of morality based on evolution.
is huge movement for you though, and I give you props for it.
Have a fine evening.
"Why? Because, I'm just that kind of God."
I don't think God has quite that sense of humor. Although sometimes I wish he did.
I've said plenty of intelligent things on this subject, John, and you have done nothing more than rundown the standard arguments for God: telelogical ones that failed 300 years ago, the "God of the Gaps" (code for "I don't know"), the ontological arguments...
It's tiring to keep a lid on all of the insufficient arguments you're throwing about. It's easier to summarize them as stupid.
"This,
Maybe there is some kind of morality based on evolution.
is huge movement for you though, and I give you props for it."
Everything I said literally went right over your head. I might as well have been typing in Greek. The point of course is that if morality is based on evolution, there is no morality in any real terms beyond survival. But, it is not like you are going to understand that or anything.
"It's tiring to keep a lid on all of the insufficient arguments you're throwing about. It's easier to summarize them as stupid."
Because anything you don't find convincing must be stupid. And further no intelligen person, not Augustine, not Aquinus, not Newton, no one, ever beleived in God.
That is pretty weak AO. Pretty damned weak.
If my actions are determined by anything other than my will, how is my will free?
Today I ate a chicken sandwich. Mmm, yummy. I freely chose to eat it of my own free will.
But why did I eat a chicken sandwich, and not eat grass or rocks? The answer is part genes (chicken sandwiches taste good because we are genetically programmed to enjoy foods that have a lot of fat and protein, because they help us survive and reproduce...evolutionary psychology explains this), and part environment (I grew up in a society where eating chicken sandwiches is common).
We do what we do because of who we are. That is free will.
"But why did I eat a chicken sandwich, and not eat grass or rocks? The answer is part genes (chicken sandwiches taste good because we are genetically programmed to enjoy foods that have a lot of fat and protein, because they help us survive and reproduce...evolutionary psychology explains this), and part environment (I grew up in a society where eating chicken sandwiches is common)."
Of course if there was any evidence that I am genetically programed to like Chicken sandwiches you might have a point. Further, even if I am, I can still chose not to eat them. I can decide that eating meat is wrong and that I am not eating them no matter how they taste good. Since I have that ability, what do I really care what my genes say? In the end I can eat what I want regardless of what my genetic programing is or isn't.
The end answer is, we eat what we chose to. So why does it matter what our genes say?
Nice appeal to authority. I don't care what those people thought and I never said that intelligent people = atheists.
Of course, John, your railing about free will earlier and your adherence to your faith makes me laugh. You do realize God knows everything you're going to do, right? How do you square an omniscient being with free will?
Anyway, my moral choices are mine. I don't see why you have to appeal to a god to justify what you do. Can you not stand on your own?
"Of course, John, your railing about free will earlier and your adherence to your faith makes me laugh. You do realize God knows everything you're going to do, right? How do you square an omniscient being with free will?"
Who says that I do? I am not the one claiming free will. It is the evolutionary psychologists who are claimming we have free will but also are controled by our genes. I don't think that we necessarily have free will. It seems like we do, but that is hardly dispositive. It is certainly possible that we don't.
"Nice appeal to authority. I don't care what those people thought and I never said that intelligent people = atheists."
Then stop calling every argument that you don't agree with stupid.
Everything I said literally went right over your head. The point of course is that if morality is based on evolution...
Everything everyone else has said literally went right over your head. Genes are a starting point, not the be all and end all. Nature + nurture, remember?
Oh yeah, you said that was bullshit. You said that: It can't be that they "sort of" determine my actions.
Given the withering logic in that bald assertion, I gave up on reason with you. Sorry, my patience is finite. 😉
"Genes are a starting point, not the be all and end all. Nature + nurture, remember?"
Yes, genes determine are actions unless they don't. That is such a meaningful statement. And that is essentially what you are saying. It is nature. No sometimes it is nurture. Your genes say this, but sometimes you ignore them and you are free to ignore them anytime except when you are not. That is a highly explanitory theory of cognition there.
I'm not calling everyone stupid, John. I am calling your arguments stupid, primarily because they are really, really outdated.
And why can your genes not "sort of" dictate your behavior, again?
Of course if there was any evidence that I am genetically programed to like Chicken sandwiches you might have a point. Further, even if I am, I can still chose not to eat them. I can decide that eating meat is wrong and that I am not eating them no matter how they taste good. Since I have that ability, what do I really care what my genes say? In the end I can eat what I want regardless of what my genetic programing is or isn't.
You can freely choose whether to eat meat or not, but that doesn't explain why you choose to eat meat or not. Evolutionary psychology explains why we make the choices we do. If someone asks me why I'm eating the sandwich, if I say, "because I chose to.", that doesn't really answer the question. Yes, I could have chosen not to, but, in fact, I did choose to. Why? The only way to answer this is use the scientific method and determine genetic and environmental causes. If Collins' reply is "Genes can't possibly have an effect. No need to study that.", then I don't want him as head of NIH.
Of course, lest we forget what started this all-day fiasco, it was John who first called out Stephen freakin' Hawking for being "overrated" because Hawking refused to employ "God of the Gaps" in A Brief History of Time.
TAO, I think I can claim an assist for being the first (I think) to reply to John.
Also, we were all wrong. The correct answer to the question is that the government shouldn't be in the science business in the first place. Thank you and good night.
Yes, genes determine are actions unless they don't. That is such a meaningful statement.
WTF?
No one says genes determine actions, except on the most rudimentary level. If I burn you with a hot object, and you have nerve endings, an expression of your genetic makeup, you will jump away. As knowing when something is damaging you is so useful for survival, virtually every living organism has sensory nerves.
But genes certainly do determine capability. For example, intelligence is heritable. Dogs, primates, humans, all have different genetics, and all have different levels of intelligence. Wolf packs have an observed (very primitive) moral code, primates have a more evolved moral code, and humans have an obviously much more complicated moral code.
This is all so well known and non-controversial that I find myself amazed I have to type it.
Now, some religious folks believe morals come from the ensoulment. Fine, but these same people claim that lesser animals don't have souls. Whence then the moral code we see the social animals exhibit?
Given the awesome intelligence humans have relative to the rest of the animal kingdom, the proven ability of intellect to modify and overwrite our baser instincts, why is it any mystery at all that we have a highly refined moral code?
If you were born into an Aztec tribe, you would think human sacrifice moral. Apart from this belief, they had fairly typical morals of the time.
If you were born in Plato's time, you would know nothing of the christian god, yet you would still be raised with morals, developed by the humans around you. There would be laws, people would be fined and censured for bad behavior, praised for good.
All these morals would have, at their root, the primitive organisms desire to not be injured, so it can replicate. This instinct has "merely" been modified by millions of years of inductive and deductive reasoning.
Yes, genes determine are actions unless they don't. That is such a meaningful statement.
WTF?
No one says genes determine actions, except on the most rudimentary level. If I burn you with a hot object, and you have nerve endings, an expression of your genetic makeup, you will jump away. As knowing when something is damaging you is so useful for survival, virtually every living organism has sensory nerves.
But genes certainly do determine capability. For example, intelligence is heritable. Dogs, primates, humans, all have different genetics, and all have different levels of intelligence. Wolf packs have an observed (very primitive) moral code, primates have a more evolved moral code, and humans have an obviously much more complicated moral code.
This is all so well known and non-controversial that I find myself amazed I have to type it.
Now, some religious folks believe morals come from the ensoulment. Fine, but these same people claim that lesser animals don't have souls. Whence then the moral code we see the social animals exhibit?
Given the awesome intelligence humans have relative to the rest of the animal kingdom, the proven ability of intellect to modify and overwrite our baser instincts, why is it any mystery at all that we have a highly refined moral code?
If you were born into an Aztec tribe, you would think human sacrifice moral. Apart from this belief, they had fairly typical morals of the time.
If you were born in Plato's time, you would know nothing of the christian god, yet you would still be raised with morals, developed by the humans around you. There would be laws, people would be fined and censured for bad behavior, praised for good.
All these morals would have, at their root, the primitive organisms desire to not be injured, so it can replicate. This instinct has "merely" been modified by millions of years of inductive and deductive reasoning.
Bad tag, no desert after dinner tonight, damn.
Oh, and that weepy fucking, Sam Harris with his, 'would a just God allow homeless deaf hermaphrodite midgets to catch scrotum destroying herpes while selling their bodies under excruciatingly bright street lamps, blah blah blah' can go suck my dick.
I created you fuckers to be my playthings. If you were mere automata where would the fun be for me? And I really gave you the bare minimum capacity for that, too. So fuck off with the blame game.
Those 'deep. compelling. feelings. (bleh!)' are some collective delusion you have spawned amongst yourselves in the past few millennium. I blame it on David.
BTW, I was never really as hot for that sexy son of a bitch as the translations that have come down to you claim. Tried to help a 'brew out, that's all. You know YHVH plays that shit straight.
And 'God of the Gaps', WTF? Are we at the mall or something? Gap, Victoria Secrets, Bed, Bath & Beyond, I'm the God of every fucking where, motherfuckers.
Atheists like Harris (and some posters here) are of a fundamentalist mindset who would have made perfect Southern Baptists. Unfortunately, for some reason, they could not make the intellectual leap of faith required to believe in God. As a result, they are forever pissed off that He did not provide them with definitive proof that He exists and act like pricks towards anyone who does believe.
Then I hope someone finds you and puts you in a padded cell. You don't need a cosmic wrist-slapper to force you to be a decent person. And you don't get to invoke the premise that God automatically provides a moral standard. I can't even find two individual christians who agree on what that standard is, let alone all the rest of religious people.
Sam Harris is a fetus that needs aborting if I ever saw one. Even God wouldn't cry.
Hmm,
Good thread. All it was missing was Mad Max (self-explanatory), Art-P.O.G.(other people made some of the same arguments I would've), and Lonewacko (for the IllegalImmigration angle).
If my actions are determined by anything other than my will, how is my will free?
God help us.
Fluffy...
They're not making an illogical argument, but they are making an irrational argument.
I am all for fine semantic distinctions, but gimme a break.
FWIW, I stand by the assertion. The argument is not, by definition, irrational (it might be, but not necessarily).
As for your "supernatural" is "natural" as soon as it exists...well that's just comedy gold. (c.f., "nothing is something therefore it can't be nothing argument" above).
Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. Ambrose Bierce
You have bullshit. Our ancestors are unavailable. Claims made on their behalf are unverifiable. The underlying tissue that connects the late Paleolithic and the modern era is the gene pools. Changes to that pool reflect a dynamic process in which genes undergo change, and by means of al the contingencies of life serve in each generation the purpose of creating another generation. It is precisely these initial conciliations that popular accounts of human evolution cannot supply. We can say of those hunters and gatherers only that they hunted and they gathered. And we can say this only because it seems obvious that there was nothing else for them to do. The gene pool that they embodied cannot be recovered. Evolutionary psychology is therefore anecdotal. It has no scientific value. Collins is right.
Although we have a great deal of evidence about how our ancestors lived, that evidence will never be sufficient in John's eyes for us to make any statements about how our ancestors lived.
Although we have absolutely no evidence that there is a God, that lack of evidence does not deter John from making statements about God at all.
You shouldn't have one standard of proof for your own statements and one standard of proof for statements made by others, you great big Krugman.
The point of course is that if morality is based on evolution, there is no morality in any real terms beyond survival.
It doesn't matter if this is pleasant or not. All that matters is whether it is true or not.
By even raising the question "Are we prepared to accept that conclusion?" Collins excludes himself from any position of scientific authority, as far as I am concerned. He is basically declaring that he is willing to reject avenues of research not based on their probative value but based on whether he likes their implications. In the moment he says that he may as well Dr. Zaius ordering the gorillas to blow up Cornelius' cave to protect the "dark secret" that there is no morality.
I am all for fine semantic distinctions, but gimme a break.
FWIW, I stand by the assertion. The argument is not, by definition, irrational (it might be, but not necessarily).
The faculty of "reason" involves the direct apprehension of facts and the logical analysis of those facts.
You can engage in logical arguments while speculating about transcendental matters, but not rational ones. As soon as you specify that you want to talk about transcendental things you're no longer in the realm of reason.
As for your "supernatural" is "natural" as soon as it exists...well that's just comedy gold. (c.f., "nothing is something therefore it can't be nothing argument" above).
Now you're just being an idiot.
It should be immediately obvious that as soon as you start to talk about the supernatural, and as soon as you start claiming that different methods of analysis are appropriate for the supernatural, you're conceding that these things don't actually exist. If they existed, they would be part of the set of things classified as the natural. The "zero paradox" has absolutely nothing to do with this question.
As soon as the Ghostbusters catch their first ghost, they're no longer dealing with a supernatural phenomenon. They're dealing with a novel natural phenomenon. If God actually exists but just hasn't been found yet, then he's not part of the supernatural - he's Bigfoot.
Fluffy,
The faculty of "reason" involves the direct apprehension of facts and the logical analysis of those facts....You can engage in logical arguments while speculating about transcendental matters, but not rational ones. As soon as you specify that you want to talk about transcendental things you're no longer in the realm of reason.
You are begging the question here. You are smarter than that.
It should be immediately obvious that as soon as you start to talk about the supernatural, and as soon as you start claiming that different methods of analysis are appropriate for the supernatural, you're conceding that these things don't actually exist. If they existed, they would be part of the set of things classified as the natural.
Supernatural and natural- to quote a wise person I read recently: they're different words for a reason. Same goes for "exists" and "natural" and a host of other concepts upon which your argument is resting.
Back to Collins.
People seem to be under the impression that the head of the NIH would be sitting on review panels and selecting studies/making judgments about the value of specific studies. This seems unlikely.
In addition, even if he was, I can't think of a study that is health related that would fall into the realm people are afraid he would censor.
What am I missing? What health related study bumps up against his beliefs? Are people afraid he is going to suppress evolutionary studies of mental illness? Really?
Supernatural and natural- to quote a wise person I read recently: they're different words for a reason. Same goes for "exists" and "natural" and a host of other concepts upon which your argument is resting.
Yes, they're different words for a reason. As I've been arguing all along, they're different words because people wanted to preserve a realm for traditional stories about gods and fairies and the like after the early versions of those stories - which were not perceived by their originators as supernatural, but were seen as perfectly natural - were debunked.
Moses would not have acknowledged a distinction between the supernatural and the natural. God was real and concrete to him and active in the world and there was no need for him to preserve a world of fancy not open to reason to protect his God from falsification.
What am I missing? What health related study bumps up against his beliefs? Are people afraid he is going to suppress evolutionary studies of mental illness? Really?
When I first saw this story, I had no real issue with Collins getting his appointment, because I assumed he was just one more person who had reached a rough truce in his mind between science and his faith, and although I found that less than perfectly respectable, I didn't see it as that big a deal. This is how millions of people live their lives, after all.
But that quote of his that was posted above really through me off.
What if it was this instead?
When someone writes that, I don't immediately call out, "Marge! We got ourselves a new scientific advisor! Cut a check from taxpayer funds and get this guy down to HR right now!"
Sorry, that should say "...threw me off." That's an odd one for me. What's the word for typos that aren't typos at all but homonym substitutions?
Didn't read all the comments but was so struck by John's assertion that it is either free will or genes and 'ne'er the twain shall meet' --- I must address.
I have dogs. Their genes apparently give them predispositions for certain behaviors yet I can train them to respond to commands and they learn from experience what things they get excited about (car rides), which ones they dread (the vet) and have decided preferences about food and exercise. Had they been left to the wild most of these things would be absent from their personalities.
How is it different for Humans? Left to the wild I would probably never have learned that I (like my forebears) have a predilection for alcoholism. Or that I am very good at certain mathematics (oddly like my father). That my sisters mysteriously share several of the same (or similar) neuroses of a certain aunt of mine.
Yet in spite all of these inputs from my genes, I do have the ability to direct my life through force of will. Sometimes my nature overcomes my nurture, other times I can actually turn down a drink.
Could not a mix work?
Machines that can learn are well under development and this will continue apace. When they seem to exhibit free will how will you deal with this inconsistency? Will you claim that they now have a soul?
I love it when the Douchebagitarians come out to play
Moses would not have acknowledged a distinction between the supernatural and the natural. God was real and concrete to him and active in the world and there was no need for him to preserve a world of fancy not open to reason to protect his God from falsification.
"a world of fancy not open to reason" is not, really, what I thought we were discussing. It is just imprecise enough, however, to make it impossible to determine. If a claim that "outside the realm of material explanation" is the same as "not open to reason," then you may have something, but I think they are different propositions. Likewise, I am not sure "a world of fancy" and "supernatural" are strictly equivalent either.
Yes, they're different words for a reason. As I've been arguing all along, they're different words because people wanted to preserve a realm for traditional stories about gods and fairies and the like after the early versions of those stories - which were not perceived by their originators as supernatural, but were seen as perfectly natural - were debunked.
Yes, you have been repeating that assertion frequently. It is pure speculation. You have more faith in the historical evidence for it than seems warranted. But that is just my opinion. But in the world of fancy you have created, your just so story of the development of religious concepts, it is a rational argument. It may or may not be correct, but it is rational.
Religious - I don't have to prove anything, you have to prove there isn't a God.
Atheist - I don't have to prove anything, you have to prove there is a God.
Not entirely. For example, when we see yellow on a computer screen, we're not seeing actual yellow light, but a mixture of red and green light that produces the same optical response as actual yellow light. The two cases are otherwise physically distinct (red-green light will separate if passed through a prism, whereas yellow light will remain coherent).
There's also numerous optical illusions that can be used to demonstrate that the human perception of color is extremely dependent on the surrounding context, where identically colored patches will be perceived as having wildly different hues.
Yes, you have been repeating that assertion frequently. It is pure speculation. You have more faith in the historical evidence for it than seems warranted. But that is just my opinion. But in the world of fancy you have created, your just so story of the development of religious concepts, it is a rational argument. It may or may not be correct, but it is rational.
Having this conversation with you has reaffirmed my opinion that people are faith are cunts. Just so you know.
Fluffy,
That's an odd reaction. Why would a conversation with me make you think a group to which I don't belong (people of faith) are cunts?
Stormy Dragon,
Indeed. Strictly speaking light has no color. Color is a name for the reaction it causes in the human brain. So the "not entirely" you kindly give to Fluffy's assertion is too kind. I would give it a "that is incorrect, strictly speaking."
I used to be a stay-at-home-mind-my-own-business atheist, but George W. Bush turned me into an evangelical atheist. Now I want to attack religion at every opportunity, and show it up for the destructive force it is in the world.
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I trust he considers this skeptical attitude to be fully justified. Might this be because there are no good reasons to believe in Zeus?
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