You'll Just Love Government HMOs, Say Bay State Bureaucrats
As usual I woke up this morning to NPR's "Morning Edition." Of course, the topic du jour is government health care reform, or as it is increasingly called, "health care overhaul." Whatever. In any case, the NPR story today was all about the joys of Massachusett's three-year failing experiment with health care reform. Surprise! It turns out that the state government can't pay for it.
So now Bay State bureaucrats are trying to figure out how to lower their health care reform's "costs." And lo and behold, Massachusetts' paper pushers are reaching for the tried and true technique for controlling prices the government can't afford to pay: price controls. Only they don't call it that. In this case, the health care bureaucrats are saying that they merely want to "restructure" what they pay doctors and hospitals.
As NPR reports:
The first thing they decided — unanimously and right off the bat — was that the current way of paying doctors, hospitals and other medical providers has got to go…
In other words, Massachusetts is going to try to kill off fee-for-service. That's the time-honored system that pays health care providers a separate fee for every service they provide.
In the world of health care, this is big news. For years, experts have lamented that fee-for-service payment drives costs up because it gives health providers a strong incentive to do more doctor visits, more tests, more procedures, more hospitalizations.
Also, fee-for-service doesn't pay for many things that might reduce health costs and keep people healthy. But no state has ever tried to eliminate this payment method across the board…
Massachusetts policymakers want to replace fee-for-service with "global payment" — paying groups of health providers a flat yearly fee for each patient they cover.
But hold on. Doesn't "global payment" sound suspiciously like the much-demonized health maintenance organizations (HMOs) of last decade? Well, yeah. But this time, it will work because caring and careful government bureaucrats will make sure that it does. As NPR explained:
But some worry "global payment" sounds suspiciously like the managed care "capitated" HMO plans of the 1990s. Those plans were also based on paying health care providers a fixed amount per patient.
That experiment failed, because it gave doctors and hospitals an incentive to hold back on care.
To avoid a repeat of that experience, advocates of global payment say health providers will have to be watched closely.
"You need someone monitoring this," says Nancy Kane of the Harvard School of Public Health. "You can't just walk away because you've set the limit."
Kane is a health care finance expert who also served on the recent Massachusetts Payment Reform Commission.
She says there are ways these days to prevent stinting on care.
"There's a lot of quality measuring that can go on now that didn't used to be available," she says. "We now have electronic medical records. It's easier to monitor what's going on. So I think the whole reporting system and the intention to maintain a monitoring infrastructure is all critical to avoiding the bad days of managed care."
Look, there's plenty wrong with how doctors and hospitals are compensated now, not least of which is that consumers have almost no way of affecting prices. But if "reformers" think that administrative expenses were high when profit-seeking HMOs were trying to keep costs down, just wait until monitoring those costs to keep them within government budget constraints are in the hands of the equivalent of government Health Maintenance Organizations. Just one word: rationing.
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But people who see rationing of health care as the future are just crazed right-wingers who think there are socialists under the bed. Right.
Max salary for all health care workers: $30,000 a year. Doctors, nurses, everybody associated with health care.
Let's see how well that works out. Democrats sure are stupid fucks.
The convoluted twists and turns of right-wing arguments against unversal health care deserve a name. How about Libertarian Pretzels? Twist us up some Libertarian pretzels, Ron.
Lefiti, I hear that ass-to-mouth isn't nearly as bad as it's been made out to be. What do you think?
Has Massachusetts been suffering from doctors moving to other states?
Those would be some interesting numbers to look at, I reckon.
The pitfalls of the single payer system are so obvious, that anyone who can't see them is either a moron, ideologically blinded, or literally does not care as long as it achieves their goal (which could be "equality" of service for all, hurting the evil insurance companies, etc.). The first two are stupid, but the third is scum.
Price controls lead to shortages.
Always.
I want to brand that on socialists foreheads so they have to see it every time they look in the mirror.
Also, "when you subsidize something, you get more of it." Costs are going to have upward pressure even as they ration.
Epi, you left out the people like lefiti who root for single payer because the rethuglican bushitler!s are against it.
No, not whatever. The use of the word overhaul in this instance has been driving me crazy. When you overhaul anything, it is understood that the thing being overhauled will be reassembled to the exact configuration it was in before you took it apart. The value of any government program can solely be determined by the amount of doublespeak required to pitch it to the general public.
Jaybird: You may be onto something. Take a look at this item about "Mass doctors leaving for friendlier climes" over at the Commonhealth blog.
Michael: Good point.
Epi, you left out the people like lefiti who root for single payer because the rethuglican bushitler!s are against it.
Those are covered by my third category, Warty.
I took a class in Chinese history in college 'way back when; the professor tossed out a beautiful little nugget, one day.
He told us that in many villages, doctors were paid a salary, by each villager, but only as long as he was well. The doctor's incentive(!) was to keep everybody healthy, in order to maximize his income.
strike through16 years agoI awoke to the same story, Ron. Did you notice how cheerful the lady bureaucrat sounded as she described her state's failed health plan? "Not to worry! We know what's wrong, and now we'll fix it!" The fact that Massachusetts has a small health scheme that's in big trouble--and, apart from the NPR story, is getting virtually no national coverage in the news--is telling, and disturbing.
"I want to brand that on socialists foreheads so they have to see it every time they look in the mirror."
Remember to brand it backwards so they can read it when they look in the mirror.
I don't care what you say about health care, it takes a strong character to say he loves government homos.
You need someone monitoring this," says Nancy Kane of the Harvard School of Public Health. "You can't just walk away because you've set the limit."
"There's a lot of quality measuring that can go on now that didn't used to be available," she says. "We now have electronic medical records. It's easier to monitor what's going on. So I think the whole reporting system and the intention to maintain a monitoring infrastructure is all critical to avoiding the bad days of managed care."
The same people who went apeshit over the NSA listening to foreign phonecalls, now have no problem with the government monitoring your health records and your healthcare. Frankly, it is none of Ms. Kane's business what healthcare I am getting. And I don't want her monitoring anything.
As usual I woke up this morning to NPR's "Morning Edition."
Then you deserve all the bullshit you get.
experts have lamented that fee-for-service payment drives costs up because it gives health providers a strong incentive to do more doctor visits, more tests, more procedures, more hospitalizations.
True, but not nearly as much as lawsuits.
The additional visits, additional tests, additional proceudres, etc. all more COVER-YOUR-ASS-IN-CASE-OF-LAWSUITS than bill-em-till-you-kill-em.
John (2:13pm), you beat me to it and said it better than I would have.
So I'll just tweak
Max salary for all health care workers: $30,000 a year.
with
Adjusted for inflation, of course. 😉
strike through16 years agoRuss 2000 | August 5, 2009, 2:14pm | #
As usual I woke up this morning to NPR's "Morning Edition."
Then you deserve all the bullshit you get.
If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
I find it contiually amusing that most health insurance "reform" cost cutting proposals consist of stuff the industry already tried on it's own in the '90s.
Fee for service "works" broadly speaking because it pits two groups that are knowledgable about the relevant standard of care against each other - the provider who wants to bill as many procedures as possible and the payor who wants to pay for as few procedures as possible. In practice, the provider fills out claims that include the information that demonstrates medical necessity and the insurance company denies them if the documentation is incomplete or insufficient to justify the procedure. If a provider is trying to rack up unnecessary procedures, it's pretty obvious on the claim forms.
There is no comparable way to police undertreatment in capitated groups, since not doing a procedure that would have helped doesn't generate documentation to review like doing a procedure that wouldn't help does. You'd need some kind of inverse claims system where the decision not to perform a procedure is documented and reviewed, which doesn't comport with normal charting practices, let alone the existing claims framework. The only way to detect it would be detailed reviews of charts, which would be orders of magnitude more resource intensive than the claims process and everybody involved who is medically knowledgeable benefits financially if less procedures are done.
That's why capitated plans have reasonable costs and shitty consumer satisfaction. This is all very old news, but it seems like the Dems aren't going to be happy until they prove what already failed in the private sector will also fail in the public sector.
NPR isn't that bad. It's a damn sight better than "Mark and Marty and the Morning Zoo" right before they play "Panama" for the umpteenth time.
Ron,
I get a 404 error when I click the link.
Will attempt my own google search on the subject.
I hope this link works better
Maybe this one will be better
Price controls, rationing, even more medical decisions being made by bureaucrats, disincentives to develop new medical technologies, disincentives to become a doctor. . .yeah, it's all good.
Interesting.
If the people who work under a system similar to Massachusetts'ses are saying "hell, with this, I'm going to Wyoming", the only solution is to make Wyoming have that system too.
You know, to be fair.
And then make it illegal for doctors to move to other countries.
If doctors then say "well, I'll just quit", maybe we can pass a law against that too.
Anyone opposed probably hates the idea of children getting health care.
Max salary for all health care workers: $30,000 a year.
I have actually heard various pinkbots bemoaning the very idea of anyone practicing medicine with a profit motive.
-jcr
"That experiment failed, because it gave doctors and hospitals an incentive to hold back on [superfluous] care."
Bullshit-o-rama
Who needs money? I got a shiny medal!
If leftists really want to discredit Rand, maybe they should stop sounding like her caricatures.
Price controls lead to shortages.
Always.
No, price fixing always lead either to shortages or surpluses, depending on whether the mandated price is above or below the market price.
A price control can also have no effect, if for example a maximum price is set far above the market price.
-jcr
If doctors then say "well, I'll just quit", maybe we can pass a law against that too.
Then we can pass a law that the children of doctors have to be doctors too, like in Roman times.
Then we can pass a law that doctors have to marry people with IQs above 120, so they can't have any stupid kids.
That worked really well for Diocletian.
BTW, if we set a max salary for elected officials at $30K/ year, inflation would come to a screeching halt.
-jcr
"Oh, right. I was supposed to assign you a job. Let me just get your career chip installed. Hold out your palm. What are you scared of? It's just like getting your hand pierced."
DIOCLETIAN!!!! I tried googling the emperor who did that but my google-fu is weak.
The trick with Google is to know just enough about a lot of things to look up what you don't know.
I'm pretty sure Socrates said something just like that.
Yes, of course, they want to make a good living, but many-perhaps most-doctors would happily trade high compensation for a chance to practice medicine as it should be practiced.
Written by somebody who has probably never met a doctor outside an exam room.
I tried googling the emperor who did that but my google-fu is weak.
Maybe work on your bing-fu then?
Has Bing sold out the Chinese yet?
NPR's "Morning Edition." Of course, the topic du jour is government health care reform, or as it is increasingly called, "health care overhaul."
Finally, someone besides me noticed.
That experiment failed, because it gave doctors and hospitals an incentive to hold back on care.
Fee for service "drives costs up because it gives health providers a strong incentive to do more doctor visits, more tests, more procedures, more hospitalizations."
Global payments "gave doctors and hospitals an incentive to hold back on care."
Let's sum up: Fee for service promoted too much care, global payments generated an atmosphere of too little care.
Is there anyone on this board, liberal, libertarian or conservative who sees the obvious problem here that I see?
So Little Mr. Barack Riding Hood is going to find the model that's juuuuuuuuuuuust right.
Yes, of course, they want to make a good living, but many-perhaps most-doctors would happily trade high compensation for a chance to practice medicine as it should be practiced.
Uh ha... hahaha... AHAHAHAHAAAAAA! hahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Yeah, and I would gladly accept lower compensation for my job if only I could practice network administration or software development as it should be.
Fee for service "drives costs up because it gives health providers a strong incentive to do more doctor visits, more tests, more procedures, more hospitalizations."
Only if the "fee" in the fee-for-service is being paid by someone other than the consumer.
If you have a government program promising to cover all medical expenses without question, then of course, doctors are going to do more tests and more visits. Duh.
If this was an insurance company, you can bet they would cast a wary eye on all that fishy shit and try to cut down those tests as much as possible. But then they'd be evil profit-seeking bastards.
A government program, on the other hand, would have very little incentive to try to cut costs. Their incentives are political rather than monetary. They have to please congressmen who get AARP donations. Running budget deficits and hiking taxes is much easier than denying someone a procedure that *might* help them.
The set of incentives provided to a government plan pretty much guarentee further cost-spiraling.
Yes, of course, they want to make a good living, but many-perhaps most-doctors would happily trade high compensation for a chance to practice medicine as it should be practiced.
Not very many doctors are going to say that they practicing better medicine by seeing the patient less often and doing fewer tests. In an ideal world, we would all have a personal physician and automatic urinalysis machines attached to our toilets.
I posted about this on another thread and my comments are germane to this one as well.
First, I assure you the majority of my med school graduating class wanting to enter practice had profit motive in mind primarily with "wanting to help people" and scientific curiosity/self-fulfillment secondary. As I told a recent med school aspirant, "On your application essay, DO NOT say 'I want to help people' or 'I always dreamed of being a doctor.'" Admissions committees hear that drivel all the time. As I told him, I was very specific how my aptitudes, abilities, MCAT score and prior experience worthied my admission. There are plenty of profession where people can be helped that do not require a medical license.
Second, if I was paid 30,000 a year for cholecystectomies, appendectomies and hiatal repairs, amoung other operative procedures, forget it, it'll be a safe night in Central Park before I would perform another procedure.
Third and finally, if TORT reform was enacted, overhead and costs would drop dramtically because the large chunk (45$) of my earnings goes to malpractice insurance. IF I didn't have to practice defensive medicine, then I would have to order repetitive and often uncessary tests. For example, If an MRI is ordered where a simple radiograph would not suffice or be superfluous, why should I have to stick my patient with that uneccessary cost just because either medicare or an HMO will not pay for it because thier protocol states the radiograph is done first simply because it is cheaper, on the nill chance it may indicate what DX data needed to confirm a given DX? I could add to this list ad infinitum....
Also of note, and this has happened a few times in practice, is be honest with your physician. One patient nearly died on the table because she neglected to mention ALL the drugs she was currently taking (illicit to be precise). Another prectical example of if you omit data, for whatever reason, it can also increase the cost of a fairly simple procedure.
Corrections - 45% not 45$ (I wish it was 45 simoleans) and "...I would NOT have to order..."
Lets just stop treatment and let nature sort them out. If you live..congrats...you get to pass on your genes. If you don't tough shit, welcome to natural selection.