Reason Morning Links: Captured Journalists Come Home, Sotomayor Debate, Losing Afghanistan

- Bill Clinton wins release of American journalists from North Korea.

- Full Senate debating Sotomayor confirmation this week.

- Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) holds up U.S. anti-drug war aid to Mexico, questions State Department report giving the country high marks for human rights.

- Internal map leaked from Afghan government suggests half the country at risk of Taliban control.

- Ahmadinejad sworn in for second term as Iran's president.

Comments

[kilroy]

Clinton came back too? I thought he was part of Dear Leader's "Chicks For Clunkers" program.

[Xeones]

kilroy, once he found out that Nork chicks don't put out on the first date, there was no force in the world that could keep Bill in that country.

[kilroy]

I guess he didn't know how to say "No really, this doesn't count as sex." in Korean.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Man, Smigel was dead-on with the X-Presidents concept.

[The Angry Optimist]

Internal map leaked from Afghan government suggests half the country at risk of Taliban control.

Let's not get carried away:

Almost half of Afghanistan is at a high risk of attack by the Taliban and other insurgents or is under "enemy control

Not risk of control, risk of attack. And neither of you are close on the math, either:

The threat assessment map, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters, shows 133 of Afghanistan's 356 districts are regarded as high-risk areas

That's 37%, not "half" or even close to "half".

[Rich]

Maybe he'll move on to the Taliban chicks.

[kilroy]

"The State Department's failure to push through the report package of drug-war propaganda and lies is a setback for the U.S. and Mexican governments"

[Jim Stewert]

Wow, way to go Clinton! Bill Clinton ROCKS!

RT
http://www.anon-web-tools.net.tc

[Tomcat1066]

Rich: Taliban chicks don't put out on the first date either. Clinton couldn't fit under a birka anyways 😉

[Taliban Chick]

Several dates, a fig, and some roast chicken, I put out.

[P Brooks]

We're winning! Don't listen to the naysayers and dead-enders; we're making the world a better place, one mangled, decomposing brown body at a time.

[Chinny Chin Chin]

TAO,

Your point about percentages would be valid only if the provinces were all of equal size. They're not.

It's entirely possible that the "at risk" provinces make up half of the land area.

[The Angry Optimist]

Chinny - I only have the assertion here and the Reuters article. And Reuters isn't showing the map.

[MNG]

Man, I hope Clinton traded the anonymity bot for the journalists...

Hey, the Dear Leader rocks, I love re-education! LOL!

RT
http://www.anonymity-web-crazyperson.net.tc

[MNG]

Chin and TAO
Let's just say you're both right. Now maybe we can start working together to beat the Taliban!

[MNG]

"Taliban chicks don't put out on the first date either."

Unless it's a blind-date/arranged marriage date, then I think they are required to...Hey, no culture is all bad.

[LevStrauss]

Meh, Clinton bringing the hostages home is no big deal, Jesse Jackson did that in the 90s.

[Xeones]

You're such a misogynist, MNG. I'm reporting you to feministing.

[MNG]

Alas Xeones, my secret shame is secret no longer...I await my tongue lashing from feministing with a sense that I really, really deserve it...

[MNG]

Hmm, I just looked up the writer over there and yes, yes I do deserve a tongue lashing from her...

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/.a/6a00d8341c562c53ef01156f14e108970c-320wi

[Buzz]

Her mouth looks like it could hold a great deal of cum. I like that.

[The Angry Optimist]

I don't care how cute she is - that endless stream of bullshit and me getting yelled at for opening doors for her would put an end to any level of attractiveness fuckin' quick.

[TrickyVic]

"""Now maybe we can start working together to beat the Taliban!"""

What have we been doing for the last 8 years?

[TrickyVic]

My bet is we will spend more time in Afghanistan than we did in Vietnam. The Russians will laugh their asses off at our failure to learn by their mistake.

[Art-P.O.G.]

My bet is we will spend more time in Afghanistan than we did in Vietnam.

As far as combat operations, I believe OEF will soon pass The Vietnam War's length, if it hasn't already.

[kilroy]

"Her mouth looks like it could hold a great deal of cum. I like that."

You must admit it's off-puttin' how those feminists quivers don't run quite plumb.

[P Brooks]

? Bill Clinton wins release of American journalists from North Korea

Did Clinton arm-wrestle the Exhalted Leader for them?

[Buzz]

House Orders Up Three Elite Jets
Last year, lawmakers excoriated the CEOs of the Big Three automakers for traveling to Washington, D.C., by private jet to attend a hearing about a possible bailout of their companies.

But apparently Congress is not philosophically averse to private air travel: At the end of July, the House approved nearly $200 million for the Air Force to buy three elite Gulfstream jets for ferrying top government officials and Members of Congress.

http://www.rollcall.com/media/37552-1.html

[Pro Libertate]

I understand that Kim Jong-il demanded, as the condition for the journalists' release, that Paula Abdul be removed from American Idol. Naturally, Clinton refused on the grounds that our government didn't have the power to do such things. He then launched into a brilliant speech about the virtues of a free society. Dear Leader cried for a bit, then promised to adopt an American-style economic and political system immediately, no matter how many of his citizens had to die to achieve that goal.

It's silly how much credit Clinton is getting for this. He delivered whatever payola was sufficient to get the release--he didn't accomplish some negotiating coup. Everyone knew the journalists were being held to get something out of the West and would be released sooner rather than later.

[the innominate one]

stay classy, Buzz

[Art-P.O.G.]

It's silly how much credit Clinton is getting for this. He delivered whatever payola was sufficient to get the release--he didn't accomplish some negotiating coup.

That's your story. I say Clinton gained access to the prison using successive Jedi Mind Tricks and then killed the journalists captors with a lightsaber attack.

[kilroy]

The South Korean press are saying that having a former US president come to North Korea and beg is the payola. Seems like we gave them something they wanted for hostages, even if we don't value what we gave. Probably not a great idea in the long run.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Prolly knocked Boba Fett into a Sarlacc Pit at some point, too.

[Lamar]

"It's silly how much credit Clinton is getting for this. He delivered whatever payola was sufficient to get the release--he didn't accomplish some negotiating coup. Everyone knew the journalists were being held to get something out of the West and would be released sooner rather than later."

Or maybe it just rankles the wingnuts to no end that Slick Willy got those girls out of North Korea without having to bomb anybody. So...naturally there was a big payoff and huge concessions made by the west. And, of course, Clinton's visit "legitimized a weakened regime" making the inevitable revolution impossible! But there must have also been a payoff. And sunshine turns daisies into golden ponies.

[Lamar]

"Probably not a great idea in the long run."

We know from our Cuba experience that completely snubbing foreign adversaries will result in a rapid and catastrophic defeat for communist regimes.

[Pro Libertate]

Art-P.O.G.,

Well, if that's what he did, then I retract my statement.

Lamar,

Nah, even the bad old Bush guys accomplished some diplomatic successes. True Diplomacy-fu, however, involves talking people into doing things without making significant concessions. I bet we made one in this instance. That was the whole point of the detention, after all. While I think Clinton is better at diplomacy than the president or the S.O.S., he's not exactly great at it, either.

Of course, towards the end, Bush had backed himself into a wall with countries like this. You can stonewall on the official front, but you have to keep some channels open.

[kilroy]

Lamar,

Do you give children candy when they throw a tantrum? Was that you begging his kid to stop pissing on the floor at Target?

[EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy]

My bet is we will spend more time in Afghanistan than we did in Vietnam. The Russians will laugh their asses off at our failure to learn by their mistake.

The Russians?

I'm pretty sure the Brits have dibs.

[Lamar]

"Do you give children candy when they throw a tantrum?"

The child is 30 years old and living in his own house, so I think your frame of reference is off.

[R C Dean]

Seems like we gave them something they wanted for hostages, even if we don't value what we gave. Probably not a great idea in the long run.

The First Iron Law:

1. You get more of what you reward, and less of what you punish.

[R C Dean]

Of course, towards the end, Bush had backed himself into a wall with countries like this. You can stonewall on the official front, but you have to keep some channels open.

We always had back channels to the Norks. They just weren't the high-profile, ego-stroking channels that the Norks wanted. Boo hoo.

[Lamar]

We really don't know what motivated North Korea. Maybe it was money. Maybe it was "legitimacy". Maybe it was concessions in the nuke issue. Maybe its leader wanted to assert power over upstart factions. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Meanwhile, Euna Lee and Laura Ling are at home.

[Pro Libertate]

Lamar,

I hope the tantrums have stopped, too. I've got four kids, and my wife and I need to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel ?

I'm not opposed to the idea of keeping some sort of channels open with these pariah states, if only just to deal with these kinds of issues. But rewarding them for bad behavior is not a good thing. If that didn't happen here, great, but I'm highly dubious.

[Pro Libertate]

Maybe Dear Leader got Clinton to contribute to his eugenics program? After all, Clinton is a former president and may be worthy.

[kilroy]

"I think your frame of reference is off."

I think you missed the point. See R C Dean's subsequent post for a clue.

[The Angry Optimist]

meanwhile, back in Adultville, two people got to come home from the hellhole that is North Korea. Only people with blinkered partisan Hackery Programs think "this is a bad thing".

[Lamar]

"But rewarding them for bad behavior is not a good thing."

I can understand the "rewarding bad behavior" angle. But I don't think there is any dispute that these journalists broke North Korean law, and that their actions were a huge risk. I think it is great that they went on this guerrilla journalism run. But, you know, they got caught and we felt morally obligated to bail them out. I'd like to see more flouting of North Korean law even if it means we have to do some payola every now and then.

Kilroy: I looked at the posts, and I don't get it.

[Pro Libertate]

TAO,

I'm not arguing that getting them back wasn't good, and I'm not much for throwing away citizens' lives for vague policy reasons. But we have some iron we can use without provoking a nuclear attack, I think, to accomplish similar goals. Snatching Americans was a little bolder than usual, but they do stuff like this all the time.

Lamar,

Is it accepted that they actually were in North Korea when arrested? I thought that was disputed. It wouldn't be the first time NK had done something like that, after all.

[spambot]

Al Gore is the one who should have gone over there a LONG time ago. They WORKED for him. Any respect I had for the man died when he refused to do anything. Clinton's trip proved how easy it was.

[kilroy]

Really? Okay. Let me juxtapose:

"Do you give children candy when they throw a tantrum?"

"You get more of what you reward"

[P Brooks]

If we reward stupid behavior by rescuing idiots who intentionally put themselves in jeopardy, we might see more idiots putting themselves in jeopardy.

Has Clinton left for Iran, yet?

[Lamar]

Kilroy, I see it. I read had misread the sentence as "you get more out of what you reward." My bad.

Really, if that's your view of international diplomacy, then maybe Cesar Millan should be Secretary of State.

[Lamar]

Spare the rod, spoil the communist dictator!

Let's not forget the most important code in international diplomacy: If you do not shake your fists at the children on your lawn, they will continue to cut across without walking their bikes.

[The Angry Optimist]

But I don't think there is any dispute that these journalists broke North Korean law

Oh, well, there's an institution worthy of our respect.

Is it accepted that they actually were in North Korea when arrested?

I "ditto" that question.

[Lamar]

"Oh, well, there's an institution worthy of our respect."

Respect for North Korea is not the angle I was going for.

[kilroy]

Really, if that's your view of international diplomacy

I favour economics as international diplomacy.

The reporters spoke both Korean and English and knew the extreme risks they were taking. I look at that the same way I look at AIG, you take the risk you deserve the consequences, good or bad. I wouldn't complain if they'd gotten a Pulitzer for the reporting instead of 12 years.

If the charges were bogus, for whatever reason, the the US should have tried everything possible short of a pay-off. My suspicion is we went a little farther than that.

[The Angry Optimist]

based on your own presence at the talks, kilroy?

[MNG]

I'm glad they are home. Let's let the N. Korea regime run itself into the ground, no sabre-rattling necessary here imo. They are just not worth it. So they got a former president to go over and take a picture with the Dear Tyrant. That'll help as they starve themselves further into irrelevancy...

[Pro Libertate]

Now if Clinton gave Dear Leader the same DVD set we gave HRH to buy the hostages' release, well, that's not only okay, that's great.

[Buzz]

"stay classy, Buzz"

huh?

[Meta4]

"Was that you begging his kid to stop pissing on the floor at Target?"

I was at a bus stop a few years back on a sweltering summer day. There were at least 50 people there waiting for busses. One of those people was a little kid about three-years-old standing by the bus bench with his dick in his hand. When I pointed this out to his mother replied snotty as hell that he was peeing.

Peeing at the bus stop in the summer heat.

Damn.

[kilroy]

TAO,

suspicion: the act or an instance of suspecting something wrong without proof or on slight evidence

[Les]

If we reward stupid behavior by rescuing idiots who intentionally put themselves in jeopardy, we might see more idiots putting themselves in jeopardy.

Are you against the Coast Guard saving people who take their boats out in bad weather, or get stuck on sea-side cliffs?

[Lamar]

"The reporters spoke both Korean and English and knew the extreme risks they were taking. I look at that the same way I look at AIG, you take the risk you deserve the consequences, good or bad. I wouldn't complain if they'd gotten a Pulitzer for the reporting instead of 12 years."

I'm confused. Should North Korea be "punished" like a child? Or should N. Korea be left alone because the journalists bought their tickets, knew what they were getting into, and I say, let 'em crash?

And I "suspect" that if they wrote a book saying how awesome N. Korea is, you'd condemn them and Pulitzer. If not, why would they get a pass for positive publicity to N. Korea while Clinton gets vilified? I "suspect" that you would care a great deal.

[Lamar]

Is behavior with a higher level of risk always "stupid"? Is it, therefore, "stupid behavior" that leads to innovation?

[P Brooks]

Are you against the Coast Guard saving people who take their boats out in bad weather, or get stuck on sea-side cliffs?

Yup.

I'm not opposed to risk-taking; not in the least.

I *am* opposed to people who expect to act without consequences.

[P Brooks]

Lamar-

I think innovators take risks based on a clear (or relatively so) understanding of the probabilities of various expected outcomes. This mitigates the "stupidity" of their gambles.

[Abdul]

A little off-topic, but did you see how scrawny Kim Jong Il got in his photo-op with Clinton? There must be some truth to the rumors about his health.

If I were him, I wouldn't buy green bananas. Although, I suppose that's a moot point in North Korea.

[Lamar]

"I *am* opposed to people who expect to act without consequences."

So these journalists "expected" to act without consequences? They expected to be rescued despite nine years having passed since the last time a high level political figure went to North Korea, and despite recent nuke tests?

Do you think we should do away with ambulances too. Because, really, what is the Coast Guard if not a high tech ambulance?

[EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy]

If I were him, I wouldn't buy green bananas. Although, I suppose that's a moot point in North Korea.

Two moot points.

He doesn't bother with buying, and there aren't any bananas to be had...

[Lamar]

"I think innovators take risks based on a clear (or relatively so) understanding of the probabilities of various expected outcomes. This mitigates the "stupidity" of their gambles."

I think the term "innovator" is given after the fact based on whether absolute skill, complete luck or some combination of the two leads to success. "Every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it; once realized, it becomes commonplace."

[Les]

Yup.

I'm not opposed to risk-taking; not in the least.

I *am* opposed to people who expect to act without consequences.

So, let's be clear. A foolish sailor's boat has capsized in predictably bad weather. He could easily be rescued by the Coast Guard. Is it that you don't think he should be rescued or you think he should pay for the cost of the rescue?

[Les]

Here's another scenario. A man with no health insurance is driving his car in a high traffic area (a very risky activity). He is in a serious wreck. It's determined he has no money to pay for the ambulance that's arrived and the surgery he'll need to survive. Should he simply be allowed to die?

[EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy]

So, let's be clear. A foolish sailor's boat has capsized in predictably bad weather. He could easily be rescued by the Coast Guard. Is it that you don't think he should be rescued or you think he should pay for the cost of the rescue?

and

Here's another scenario. A man with no health insurance is driving his car in a high traffic area (a very risky activity). He is in a serious wreck. It's determined he has no money to pay for the ambulance that's arrived and the surgery he'll need to survive. Should he simply be allowed to die?

I don't speak for Lamar.

In both cases he has no "right" to the service, and no standing to expect or demand it, and if it is provided is in no position to expect it to be free.

In both cases we may (and have, for the moment at least) made a decision to provide it anyway.

There is a difference---a large and important one---between saying that he is not entitled, and we're not going to do it.

And the most important question here is: why should you get to make that decision for me?

[Lamar]

I "suspect" that these people who say "let 'em hang" would demand all kinds of official government action if an off-duty US Marine was arrested in Nork.

[Pro Libertate]

I think the U.S. should've acted to rescue its citizens. I'm glad they're home. But I think we may have had other options than the ones we likely used to accomplish this. Hopefully, some details will come out about what we paid.

[Les]

In both cases he has no "right" to the service, and no standing to expect or demand it, and if it is provided is in no position to expect it to be free.

I completely agree.

There is a difference---a large and important one---between saying that he is not entitled, and we're not going to do it.

Again, agreement!

And the most important question here is: why should you get to make that decision for me?

Why should society decide for you (tax you) to save someone's life? Well, it's a good question. And while it's being discussed (as it should and always will be), I think it's best to err on the side of saving people.