Reason Morning Links: California Budget Deal, Criminal Charges for Parents of Fat Kids, Famed Black Professor Arrested for Breaking Into His Own Home

- Gov. Schwarzenegger, lawmakers reach budget deal in California.

- Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates arrested for breaking into his own home, getting understandably angry with officer who confronted him.

- GOP courting Democrats for bill that would allow citizens of states with laxer gun laws to carry across state lines.

- South Carolina case triggers debate over criminal sanction for parents who allow children to get obese.

- Obama will miss self-imposed deadline on Gitmo detainees, will likely miss promised date for closing the facility, too.

Comments

[Johnny Longtorso]

Laxer guns? If you have a gun that can make me crap my pants, I don't want it in my state.

[SugarFree]

If you have a gun that can make me crap my pants, I don't want it in my state.

Settings include: Watery, Loose, Prolapse, Rectal Volcano, Shat Into Unconsciousness, and Unspeakable Gut Horror.

[Johnny Longtorso]

Settings include: Watery, Loose, Prolapse, Rectal Volcano, Shat Into Unconsciousness, and Unspeakable Gut Horror.

AKA the House Committee on Appropriations.

[MNG]

SF wins this thread.

On to the next!

[John C. Randolph]

Ok, who's got the figures? Is California's government really planning to cut their budget, or are they dialing back this years' increase by $15B?

-jcr

[Ska]

Having a hard time deciding what pisses me off more - arresting someone for being pissed that they were being arrested for breaking in to their own house, or arresting someone because their kid's too fat.

I'd also like to congratulate the fine people of California. Whenever I feel like NY is too fucked to go on and that a move is inevitable, CA shows me that things could be worse.

[Snarky]

Watery, Loose, Prolapse, Rectal Volcano, Shat Into Unconsciousness, and Unspeakable Gut Horror.

Sounds like the name of a D.C. law firm.

[hmm]

The first two posts are wrong on many levels.

He was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge after police said he "exhibited loud and tumultuous behavior."

Another reason every black man in the US should be armed. I'll be damned if I'm hauled off my own property w/o seeing a warrant. My wife recently had the police at our door while I was out running at 5:30am. We have a running issue with a completely insane neighbor who likes calling the cops, she dislikes me. The cop asked to come in, she said no. He asked why, she said because I said so. He then told her she need to go get me, she said I was out running. He tried again to enter our home telling her he "had to" and "had the right to" enter our home to look for me. Mind you my wife is in a robe and just woke up. long story short, they didn't come in, they went away, and the asshole cop tried to rail my wife for as much information as possible as she asked him why he needed to know to every question. (now to pound the, "Am I free to go." statement into my wife's head.

Is there an ID law in MA? There is none here, unless you are operating a vehicle. You don't even have to provide your name here if you are on foot.

[SugarFree]

MNG,

I cannot accept a win under such circumstances. I was merely quoting the settings on the bowel disruptor in Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

[MNG]

Hey, I've got to read that. I just got turned on to him with his role in the Ultimate Galactus TPBK. I just started his The Authority. Is the Transmetropolitan stuff good?

[mng]

And don't sell yourself short, sometimes knowing when to use a tool, even one attributable to another, displays creative greatness

[Stretchy]

The Henry Louis Gates headline is another example of the folks at reason stretching the truth to promote their "all cops are bad" storyline.

The cops knocked on his door because someone reported two men trying to break in. Is it that unreasonable for the police to establish the identity of the person they're talking to?

I can only imagine the shitstorm if the police had done nothing and Henry Louis Gates was bound and gagged in the basement. Then it turns into "the police are racist, they don't bother to police black houses."

[bill]

Gates arrested for breaking into his own home

That's Amos and Andrew with Samuel L. Jackson and Nicolas Cage.

[T]

The cops knocked on his door because someone reported two men trying to break in. Is it that unreasonable for the police to establish the identity of the person they're talking to?

And once the police did that, he was arrested why, exactly?

[kilroy]

Sketchy,

You're an idiot.

"He was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge after police said he "exhibited loud and tumultuous behavior."

He was on his own property and had proven his identity. Doesn't matter who you are you should be able to piss on the cop's leg with impunity after that.

[Johnny Longtorso]

Watery, Loose, Prolapse, Rectal Volcano, Shat Into Unconsciousness, and Unspeakable Gut Horror.

Alex, I'll take "Common Reactions to Reading the New Healthcare Bill" for $800.

[!]

bill that would allow citizens of states with laxer reasonable gun laws

Fixed

[John C. Randolph]

Is it that unreasonable for the police to establish the identity of the person they're talking to?

No, what's unreasonable is not going away once the person they're accosting has shown them his ID, proving that he does in fact live in the house he's standing in.

-jcr

[J sub D]

From the Gitmo story

But the officials acknowledged that two reports that were supposed to be delivered to the president by Wednesday -- one on how to overhaul the nation's detention policy and another on interrogation policy -- would not be ready.

But we can do comprehensive reform of 16% of the nations economy before the summer recess.

This is due to the fact that making decisions about how 300 million citizens receive medical treatment is much easier than what to do with < 300 detainees.

[John C. Randolph]

And once the police did that, he was arrested why, exactly?

I'm guessing that he was arrested for failure to obsequiously obey an officer.

-jcr

[SugarFree]

MNG,

Is the Transmetropolitan stuff good?

It's very good. A science fiction mash-up of Hunter S. Thompson and Norman Spinrad's Bug Jack Barron. Hilarious and profane. And it is a "maxi-series" in that all 60 issues are a single story, so it ended on it's own terms instead of just fizzling out.

Ellis only wrote the first 12 issues of Authority, the next 12 by Mark Millar are worth reading, but it goes tits up after that. And Planetary is a staggering piece of meta-fiction. (Think League of Extraordinary Gentlemen but encompassing almost all pulp fiction and comics, but minus the shitty movie. And it is based on the same premise as the Wold Newton universe by Philip Jose Farmer.)

And if you are on a comics kick, The Invisibles and Doom Patrol by Grant Morrison are also terrific.

[hmm]

Is it that unreasonable for the police to establish the identity of the person they're talking to?

Without taking them into custody or having a warrant. Yes, it is. The officer could have looked up the address and resident and simple asked are Mr. Soandso and not escalated the issue with an already pissed person. After he provided his identification the cop should have left. If the officer did in fact not willingly identify himself he is more than likely in violation of state and local statute. I always ask for their second form of ID. They are required to provide it in this state.

[J sub D]

The fat kid story is just fucking sad. I don't know what to do and neither do child welfare bureaucrats.

[John]

It was Cambridge. Not a lot of white people live there. It was a white neighborhood and a black man opened the door. So immediately, the cops assumed he was a burgler. Gates, rightfully told them to fuck off.

The case is about race in some ways it is worse than that. They arrested Gates not because he was black. They arrrested him because he dared to give a cop any shit. And that can never be tolerated no matter how wrong the cops are. And that fact more than the racial angle is what is so infuriating about the case.

[J sub D]

Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates apparently has a chip on his shoulder and can be an infuriating asshole. I find that unsurprising in light of his professional title.

That said, once he established his identity to the responding officers they had no goddam reason to remain on his property or continue the conversation. A curt "Good day, sir" would have been appropriate.

Hey cops, I have people disrespect me and act like assholes often. I live with it. Get over it ya fuckin' temperamental*, full of yourselves bullies. You're not out there to teach people to respect cops and every time you try it's counterproductive.

* Firefox just clued me in that I've been misspelling temperamental as tempermental for decades. I'm a vary gud speler and wuz sumwatt surprized.

[Art-P.O.G.]

As a black man who frequently wears a backpack, this story is unnerving, but if ths had happened to me, I wouldn't want Sharpton "on my side".

[Art-P.O.G.]

Actually, J Sub D, your misspelling is commendable because it totally looks like a compound word.

[SugarFree]

I wouldn't want Sharpton "on my side".

Better than behind you.

[J sub D]

As a black man who frequently wears a backpack, this story is unnerving, but if ths had happened to me, I wouldn't want Sharpton "on my side".

I amazed that anybody would want that discredited blowhard bigot on their side.

Al, if you're gonna support me, could you please go sit in the corner and do it quietly.

[Abdul]

"Gates said he turned over his driver's license and Harvard ID - both with his photos - and repeatedly asked for the name and badge number of the officer, who refused. He said he then followed the officer as he left his house onto his front porch, where he was handcuffed in front of other officers,"

So, did Gates follow the officer because the officer asked/told him to, or did Gates follow the officer to continue to ask for the officer's badge number and accuse him of racial bias?

If it's the latter, I'm a lot less sympathetic to Gates. You don't need the officers badge number to file a complaint or a lawsuit. Hectoring the officer as the officer is leaving your property is a pretty stupid idea. It's really stupid when you consider that you can get Charles Fucking Ogletree to file your lawsuit.

[J sub D]

The strikeout was supposed to be italics.

When the hell are we going to get a preview function around here?

[Mike Laursen]

Gov. Schwarzenegger, lawmakers reach budget deal in California.

So, I didn't see the part where the article says that Schwarzenegger is indeed going to close all the state parks and let all the prisoners out. It's almost like he said he was going to do those things to scare us or something.

[Art-P.O.G.]

The fat kid story is just fucking sad. I don't know what to do and neither do child welfare bureaucrats.

555 lbs? Amazing, and not in a good way.

[Episiarch]

GOP courting Democrats for bill that would allow citizens of states with laxer gun laws to carry across state lines.

Ha, Schumer is shitting himself over this. NY politicians are so used to their incredibly restrictive and political handgun laws (that don't affect them, of course) that the idea of out-of-staters being able to circumvent them drives them nuts.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Yeah, Gates might've been belligerent, but disorderly conduct is only a misdemeanor for good reason. A cop can pretty much arrest a person for disorderly conduct if anybody gives that cop any shit whatsoever (deserved or not).

[Art-P.O.G.]

Like Abdul said, it's difficult to tell just how badly Gates or the cop really acted (of course, the neighbor was probably a busybody...reminds me of hmm's story. Don't you recognize your neighbors?).

[Zeb]

A kid doesn't end up weighing 550 lbs. just because the parent is not feeding him properly. There is some other problem there.

[Fluffy]

So, did Gates follow the officer because the officer asked/told him to, or did Gates follow the officer to continue to ask for the officer's badge number and accuse him of racial bias?

If it's the latter, I'm a lot less sympathetic to Gates. You don't need the officers badge number to file a complaint or a lawsuit. Hectoring the officer as the officer is leaving your property is a pretty stupid idea. It's really stupid when you consider that you can get Charles Fucking Ogletree to file your lawsuit.

The officer admits in the police report that Gates kept asking for his name and complaining, and the officer said he wouldn't give him his name again or listen to his complaint unless they went outside.

So if this dispute was happening on the porch, it's because that's the way the officer wanted it.

So it sounds to me like the officer was attempting to find a way to be able to complain that Gates was committing disorderly conduct so that he would be able to arrest him.

In any event, this whole "inside / outside" debate that people are having all over is bullshit anyway. I dispute that arguing with someone on your porch is actually disorderly conduct. Unless the incident is so loud and prolonged that it disturbs the peace [and frankly, a dispute in the middle of the afternoon would have to be pretty loud to do that] the charge is BS either way.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Zeb, you're right. Someone who's morbidly obese, especially at such a young age, would probably have an underlying physical condition.

[SugarFree]

Don't you recognize your neighbors?

Maybe they did and called the cops anyway. I'd do that all the time, if my high levels of malice weren't tempered by my hatred of police tactics and attitude. I don't even call the cops on the city goat behind us who runs a nailgun at 6am most summer Sundays.

[P Brooks]

555 lbs? Amazing, and not in a good way.

It takes a (really, really fat) child to feed a village.

[libertymike]

Sugar Free-

Or on top of you.

[John]

"In any event, this whole "inside / outside" debate that people are having all over is bullshit anyway. I dispute that arguing with someone on your porch is actually disorderly conduct. Unless the incident is so loud and prolonged that it disturbs the peace [and frankly, a dispute in the middle of the afternoon would have to be pretty loud to do that] the charge is BS either way."

I agree. And also why didn't the cop give his name and badge number? They ought to be required to do that whenever someone asks. The bottomline is the cop didn't like the fact that Gates didn't kiss his ass enough so he arrested him. Yeah, Gates was probably a jerk to the cop but tough shit. That is what we pay cops to do.

[BossPup]

I haven't looked at the status of the caselaw, but I swear that disorderly conduct statutes have real constitutional problems. Any statute that basically lets a copy arrest people at will has real void for vaguesness problems.

[The Gobbler]

You all are missing the point. Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates lives for this shit. He's a goddam race-baiter. I suspect he had a woody during the entire incident.

[Seward]

Gov. Schwarzenegger, lawmakers reach budget deal in California.

The proof is in the pudding on that one. Depending on what they did they could be back at the table 3-4 months from now.

Oh, and as I look through the article I see this...

Ms. Bass also said that local governments "will have to share the pain." The state will take away $4.3 billion from local governments by borrowing from them or redirecting funds that had been earmarked for them.

Localities are going to sue to make sure that doesn't happen.

[Zeb]

I'm sure Gates was a jerk. He does seem to have a chip on his shoulder and to be the sort of person to cry racism at the slightest provocation. But that is not against the law. Especially when you are on your own property. You should be able to yell at anyone you want to and to conduct yourself in whatever disorderly manner you like on your own porch.

[Seward]

Or at least that's what I've been reading/hearing.

[Abdul]

The police report is here.

Of course, this is a one-sided version of events. According to the officer, however, he tried to give Gates his name but Gates kept speaking over him until the officer got frustrated.

Here's the text of the law Gates was arrested for breaking. One would guess that the Mass. code hasn't been updated since the Pilgrims' time.

MGL CHAPTER 272. Mass General Laws, excerpt. Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Apparently, current courts interpret this differently than when the Pilgrims originally wrote it.

As used in G.L. c. 272, ? 53, as amended by St.1943, c. 377, the phrase 'disturbers of the peace' is construed in accordance with the common-law definition of the offense, making it a crime 'to disturb the peace of the public, or some segment of the public, by actions, conduct or utterances, the combination of which constitute[s] a common nuisance.' Commonwealth v. Jarrett, 359 Mass. 491, 493 (1971)."

Under the latter definition, the cop may have a point under current law. Whether "nuisances" should be subject to criminal punishment is another matter.

[Fluffy]

You all are missing the point. Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates lives for this shit. He's a goddam race-baiter. I suspect he had a woody during the entire incident.

So what?

Everyone carries their own personal baggage into every social interaction they enter.

If I was arguing with this cop, I absolutely would be thinking of how pissed off every Radley Balko post makes me.

So you're probably right: Gates was probably pissed off because to him, this wasn't just about a simple mistake, but was about every case of DWB anywhere ever, and every occasion ever when a black person was automatically assumed to be a criminal interloper just by virtue of being in a nice neighborhood. So what?

That explains why Gates was complaining. And maybe his entire complaint was unreasonable and without merit. So that means the cop gets to arrest him?

The police in this country are starting to claim the power to treat any hostility they receive from citizens as a crime, as well as the power to treat any attempt by citizens to observe their public abuses as "criminal interference". They have to lose both those powers.

[kilroy]

"As used in G.L. c. 272, ? 53, as amended by St.1943, c. 377, the phrase 'disturbers of the peace' is construed in accordance with the common-law definition of the offense, making it a crime 'to disturb the peace of the public, or some segment of the public, by actions, conduct or utterances, the combination of which constitute[s] a common nuisance.' Commonwealth v. Jarrett, 359 Mass. 491, 493 (1971)."

I'm probably wrong here but is disturbing the peace of the public supposed to apply to private property? I wouldn't think so.

[The Gobbler]

"So that means the cop gets to arrest him?"

Apparently so.

[The Gobbler]

"The police in this country are starting to claim the power to treat any hostility they receive from citizens as a crime, as well as the power to treat any attempt by citizens to observe their public abuses as "criminal interference". They have to lose both those powers."

[citation needed]

[The Gobbler]

"I'm probably wrong here but is disturbing the peace of the public supposed to apply to private property? I wouldn't think so."

So I can have a party at my house blasting music all night?

[Abdul]

Kilroy,

The cop and Gates were on private property, but in plain view and hearing of about 7 members of the public who had gathered on the nearby sidewalk (if the police report is to be believed).

Even in libertopia, being on one's private propety wouldn't be an absolute defense if one's conduct adversely affected people attempting to enjoy their property or the use of common property.

[Fluffy]

I'm probably wrong here but is disturbing the peace of the public supposed to apply to private property? I wouldn't think so.

Cambridge has a noise ordinance that specifically permits construction noises audible at distances of 50 feet at the time of day when this incident took place.

http://www.cambridgema.gov/deptann.cfm?story_id=63

So it's hard for me to see how they can argue that Gates disturbed the public peace unless he somehow was making more noise than a construction site.

[Fluffy]

"The police in this country are starting to claim the power to treat any hostility they receive from citizens as a crime, as well as the power to treat any attempt by citizens to observe their public abuses as "criminal interference". They have to lose both those powers."

[citation needed]

Citation: The internet.

YouTube is full of cell phone videos of police abusing and threatening to arrest people who attempt to videotape them while they restrain a suspect or make an arrest. Knock yourself out. So there's the second power.

And we're talking about the first power right now. I would link you back to the fucking page you're already on, but that seems a bit redundant, don't you think?

[kilroy]

"So I can have a party at my house blasting music all night?"

Maybe you read something in the article that I missed about the neighbours complaining about the noise travelling from his private property to theirs? No? Me either.

The neighbour called about a possible breaking and entering and that issue had been resolved. Where do you see any indication that some other private interest was disturbed?

[Abdul]

Fluffy,

You really don't see the difference between construction noises and persons disturbing the peace? Unless the town of Cambridge wants to live in mud huts, they have to permit some level of construction noise. They've chosen to limit it to sounds audible to fifty feet. This doesn't mean that Cambridge citizens are free to make as much noise as a backhoe or a pneumatic hammer.

If you want to attack the substance of the law, I thinkt he vague idea of "common nuisance" would be enough. One man's first amendment right to pitch a hissy fit is another man's "common nuisance."

[Isaac Bartram]

Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates apparently has a chip on his shoulder and can be an infuriating asshole. I find that unsurprising in light of his professional title.

JsubD, according to wikipedia:

...Gates has argued that a separatist, Afrocentric education perpetuates racist stereotypes and maintains that it is "ridiculous" to think that only blacks should be scholars of African and African-American literature. He argues, "It can't be real as a subject if you have to look like the subject to be an expert in the subject,"[1] adding, "It's as ridiculous as if someone said I couldn't appreciate Shakespeare because I'm not Anglo-Saxon. I think it's vulgar and racist whether it comes out of a black mouth or a white mouth."

That doesn't sound much like someone with a "chip on his shoulder". And neither does the Gates in the news stories I've heard. Or at least no bigger chip than I would expect a citizen to get under these circumstances.

I hope he sues the Cambridge Police Department till they have to hold a bake sale to buy gas for their patrol cars.

You all are missing the point. Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates lives for this shit. He's a goddam race-baiter. I suspect he had a woody during the entire incident.

Yeah, some negroes just get all uppity and think they're as good as a white man, don't they?

[J sub D]

You all are missing the point. Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates lives for this shit. He's a goddam race-baiter. I suspect he had a woody during the entire incident.

Really? A number of commenters have opined that the professor was probably an asshole.
Including me. That is not a reason to arrest someone.

[Episiarch]

So I can have a party at my house blasting music all night?

Was that what Gates was doing? No?

[The Gobbler]

"YouTube is full of cell phone videos of police abusing and threatening to arrest people who attempt to videotape them while they restrain a suspect or make an arrest. Knock yourself out. So there's the second power."

That only means there has been an increase in videos. Nothing more.

[The Gobbler]

"Maybe you read something in the article that I missed about the neighbours complaining about the noise travelling from his private property to theirs? No? Me either."

The comment was tangental.

[kilroy]

"The comment was tangental."

The question was stupid.

[The Gobbler]

"The question was stupid."

Fuckin' witty, dude.

[Episiarch]

The Gobbler's name is perfect, seeing as he gobbles cop dick like mad.

Was that witty enough for you?

[J sub D]

JsubD, according to wikipedia:...

Thank you Isaac. It make me happy I really try to, and in this case did, use qualifiers like "apparently" and "probably" when I don't really know the whole story.

[The Gobbler]

"he gobbles cop dick like mad."

Project much?

[Episiarch]

Project much?

Now you're just pathetic.

[Fluffy]

You really don't see the difference between construction noises and persons disturbing the peace? Unless the town of Cambridge wants to live in mud huts, they have to permit some level of construction noise. They've chosen to limit it to sounds audible to fifty feet. This doesn't mean that Cambridge citizens are free to make as much noise as a backhoe or a pneumatic hammer.

Then the law is absurd and unjust on its face.

If one citizen can make a certain level of noise and not be regarded as disturbing the peace, then all citizens must be entitled to make the same level of noise and not be regarded as disturbing the peace.

It doesn't matter if you think that one person has a good reason to be making the noise and the other person doesn't. If the impact of the relative noises upon the other properties in the neighborhood is the same, what difference does it make?

To me, your entire way of framing the issue is incorrect. By limiting construction to certain times of day, the city is essentially saying, "The public cannot reasonably expect utter silence at the times of day when business is conducted, and therefore should expect to occasionally hear loud noises." Like backhoes and pneumatic hammers. But if it's not reasonable to expect the neighborhood to be entirely free of noises of this sort during traditional business hours, it's not reasonable to expect the neighborhood to be free of the sound of an elderly black man bitching at the police, either.

[SugarFree]

"YouTube is full of cell phone videos of police abusing and threatening to arrest people who attempt to videotape them while they restrain a suspect or make an arrest. Knock yourself out. So there's the second power."

That only means there has been an increase in videos. Nothing more.

What a massive logic fail. It's not the videos, it's the abuse of the people taking them. The abuse us up, dipshit.

C- trolling at best.

[Fluffy]

What a massive logic fail. It's not the videos, it's the abuse of the people taking them. The abuse us up, dipshit.

Actually, what's happening is that being a witness to police misconduct can actually MEAN SOMETHING if you have a camcorder.

The police didn't really have to worry about witnesses before. The statements of witnesses alleging police abuse would just be laughed at and ignored. [At Radley's site there's a story about the recent Shem Walker murder in New York. There are plenty of witnesses who dispute the police account, but no video so those witnesses will all be ignored.] But a video can actually get police held accountable.

So abuse of people with recording equipment is up, because the police need to drive off people who might record their activities, in order to remain as unaccountable as they have historically been.

[The Gobbler]

"What a massive logic fail. It's not the videos, it's the abuse of the people taking them. The abuse us up, dipshit."

That's right! Because before video phones, there were no incidents of police brutality. It would seem the solution would be to outlaw video phones.

Go take a course in basic logic and then get back to me.

[Abdul]

Fluffy,

There's a difference between the incidental nuisance caused by construction as opposed to the intentional nuisance caused by one person. Granted, the incidental nuisance may affect more pople than the intentional nuisance, but we have to balance the social benefits of construction versus the social benefits derived from a dude hectoring and haranging passers-by.

It seems silly to me that you would want to apply the standard for construction equipment to all public nuisance behaviors in the same community. Massachusetts also has laws against disturing a polling place or a courthouse. Would you contend that the same bulldozer decible standard should apply before you can arrest someone for disturbing a polling place? Similarly, what might be disturbing in a polling place or courthouse would not be disturbing on a sidewalk. That's why Massachusetts applies different standards.

[SugarFree]

Because before video phones, there were no incidents of police brutality.

You have slipped into incoherency.

Trolls are boring.

[John]

I think the Rodney King video was a seminal event for most cops. They learned their lesson. Sadly, it wasn't don't mindlessly beat the shit our of someone who gives you trouble. It was instead, never let anyone videotape you doing it.

[The Gobbler]

"You have slipped into incoherency.

Trolls are boring.

Great comeback! Way to deftly support your position!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/019515505X/reasonmagazinea-20/

[Dan Brown wannabe]

The Gobbler leaned back in his chair and cracked his knuckles. Another bon-mot successfully delivered. His rejoinders had them now! He shined his police badge again. Sure he had been thrown off the force, but he still had his badge and could muscle his way into any male strip-club in the county with it, no cover.
He took a swill of cheap, warm beer and refreshed the page, hoping these reasonoids would continue paying attention to him.

[The Gobbler]

"He took a swill of cheap, warm beer and refreshed the page, hoping these reasonoids would continue paying attention to him."

He seems to be getting his wish.

[Fluffy]

Granted, the incidental nuisance may affect more people than the intentional nuisance, but we have to balance the social benefits of construction versus the social benefits derived from a dude hectoring and haranguing passers-by.

The only way we could possibly do that is by having the state decide that it's more important to use loud methods of construction than it is for a citizen to voice a complaint to a magistrate. And I don't think the state should get to do that.

Your position is the one that seems silly to me. It's 4 o'clock on a Thursday, and there's a construction site at one end of a street, making noise that everyone can hear inside their homes. And I'm on my lawn, playing a stereo that no one can hear inside their homes. And I'm disturbing the peace?

Massachusetts also has laws against disturing a polling place or a courthouse. Would you contend that the same bulldozer decible standard should apply before you can arrest someone for disturbing a polling place?

Disturbing a polling place and disturbing a courthouse are different offenses than generically "disturbing the peace".

If you have a specific noise ordinance for polling places on election day, those ordinances actually should apply equally to nearby construction sites AND to people trying to disturb voters, in my view. So I can see the logic for dropping a special cone of silence around polling places on election day, and applying a more rigorous noise standard than you might ordinarily apply - but that special one day cone of silence better apply to everyone.

[Follow me outside if you want]

As a black man who frequently wears a backpack, this story is unnerving.

As a dangler, this clause is unworthy of you, Art-P.

[Angry White Man]

Gates home is now a prime target for burglary. You can be sure no LEO is going to show up with a reasonable amount of urgency. All because he had to be an asshat.

[Ska]

I still don't understand why showing the cop your ID and expecting them to say "Thank you" and leave makes you an asshat. Maybe you'd be a naive resident who thinks a cop would treat you the way anyone else who conducts business with you. But no, not an asshat.

Seriously, if a cop saw me trying to break into my own house, and I showed him my ID and said "yeah, I forgot my keys," and the dude sat there questioning me, I'd be pissed too.

[AssHat]

I'm a middle-aged white guy and if the cops show up at my door I'll provide them with enough information to verify that this is my property and tell them to go away. If they give me any shit they'll get shit right back. And if they arrest me for it they'll need to raise a lot more money at the next bake sale.

If there's no crime, you have been told to leave, you are now trespassing. Fuck off.

[libertymike]

Abdul, Fluffy's position is just more sensible, logical and consistent-and more fitting for a free society.

[libertymike]

Are we forgetting that the cop was on Gates' property? The cop did not have a right to be on Mr. Gates' property-reports of burglary/breaking and entering and being black notwithstanding.

[John]

libertymike,

You don't understand. Being alone in a nice home in a nice white neighborhood while black is prima facia evidence that a crime has been committed. Hell, he was black and in a nice home, he must have been doing something illegal right?

[R C Dean]

Is it that unreasonable for the police to establish the identity of the person they're talking to?

It can be, yes. If they don't have probable cause for searching or arresting you, then I don't see how they have probably cause to interrogate you about your identity or anything else.

[prolefeed]

So, did Gates follow the officer because the officer asked/told him to, or did Gates follow the officer to continue to ask for the officer's badge number and accuse him of racial bias?

If it's the latter, I'm a lot less sympathetic to Gates. You don't need the officers badge number to file a complaint or a lawsuit. Hectoring the officer as the officer is leaving your property is a pretty stupid idea. It's really stupid when you consider that you can get Charles Fucking Ogletree to file your lawsuit.

He was still on his property, exercising his First Amendment right to call the cop whatever he wanted.

He may be a righteous arsehole with some anger management issues, but the cops needed to get the fuck off his property and not arrest him for expressing how pissed off he was.

[LarryA]

GOP courting Democrats for bill that would allow citizens of states with laxer gun laws to carry across state lines.

In my case, with a Texas CHL I can now carry in 30 states. The new law would expand that to 48.

The bad news is that I have to obey the laws of whatever state I'm in, which can be confusing. For instance, in South Carolina if I want to enter a person's residence I have to tell them I'm carrying, and ask permission to enter. In Texas telling someone I'm carrying is failure to conceal, a violation. What's required in one state is prohibited in another.

Note that the "laxer gun laws" in the reference really refers to the fact that 40 states have right-to-carry. IOW if you meet the legal qualifications you shall be issued a license. The states that are kicking are the "discretionary" issue jurisdictions, where you have to be politically connected before you "need" a carry license.

And who knew this was going to be the most pro-gun Congress since 1986?

Are we forgetting that the cop was on Gates' property? The cop did not have a right to be on Mr. Gates' property-reports of burglary/breaking and entering and being black notwithstanding.

Now tell me what the reaction would have been if Prof Gates had walked in on a burglary in progress and been killed because the police stayed on the sidewalk.

It can be, yes. If they don't have probable cause for searching or arresting you, then I don't see how they have probably cause to interrogate you about your identity or anything else.

So there's a burglar in your house. A cop walks up to the door. The burglar says, "Oh, I live here." You want the cop to say, "Shucks, I sure wish I could ask for ID. Oh, well." And leave?

[R C Dean]

So there's a burglar in your house. A cop walks up to the door. The burglar says, "Oh, I live here." You want the cop to say, "Shucks, I sure wish I could ask for ID. Oh, well." And leave?

Why is the cop at my door? If he has probably cause to believe my house is being burgled, then he can ask for ID.

If he doesn't, well, then, he can't.

I am more than willing to trade off the cop's effectiveness in this very limited case against giving the cops authority to demand "Papier, bitte" whenever they want.

[R C Dean]

Let me clarify: cops can ask anyone, anytime for ID, just like the checkout girl can ask you for ID when you write a check.

What cops shouldn't be allowed to do is arrest you if you decline.

[Abdul]

Prolefeed,

There's a fine line between first-amendment protected bitching, and the type of bitching that--according to the police report--disturbed seven members of the public who were on the sidewalk. (If you click the link in the post, you can see that Gates' front porch is close to the sidewalk). One's right to complain bumps into the rights of others not to be bothered by it.

I see in the news that the cops have dropped charges. While Mr. Gates' prominence no doubt figured into it, I suppose it also lends creedence to the version of the facts that Gates' outbursts were of the protected variety.

Even if protected, there's smart protected speech, and dumb protected speech. Why bother hectoring a cop when you have one of the nation's best known civil rights attorneys in your cell phone directory?

[Randy Bottoms]

"Even if protected, there's smart protected speech, and dumb protected speech. Why bother hectoring a cop when you have one of the nation's best known civil rights attorneys in your cell phone directory?"

Because that's just what race-baiters do.

[Fluffy]

Even if protected, there's smart protected speech, and dumb protected speech. Why bother hectoring a cop when you have one of the nation's best known civil rights attorneys in your cell phone directory?

Because hectoring a cop is emotionally satisfying?

Why complain about anything in life? You could just write a letter. Right?

[Zeb]

""Even if protected, there's smart protected speech, and dumb protected speech. Why bother hectoring a cop when you have one of the nation's best known civil rights attorneys in your cell phone directory?"

Because that's just what race-baiters do."

And most importantly, because it is not against the law.

And did the seven people standing on the sidewalk complain about the noise, or were they just interested in what was going on? It seems more likely that the incident made their days a bit more interesting and gave them something to do for a little while. I seriously doubt that Gates was arrested because he disturbed people on the street. He was arrested because he bothered the cop who should have left once he had determined that no one had broken into the house.

[Abdul]

He was arrested because he bothered the cop who should have left once he had determined that no one had broken into the house.

The cop did attempt to leave. Gates followed him.

Whether the people on the sidewalk were actually disturbed or were just tuning in out of curiosity is unknown. As I said above, the police dropped charges, which suggests the latter is more likely.

However, if there were evidence to suggest that Gates was loudly haranging a person who had lawfully entered and left Gates's property, and this haranging was disturbing seven passers-by, that's an arrestable offense. It doesn't matter if the person lawfully entering and leaving is a cop, or an encyclopedia salesman, or a meter reader.

[Fuck that shit]

However, if there were evidence to suggest that Gates was loudly haranging a person who had lawfully entered and left Gates's property, and this haranging was disturbing seven passers-by, that's an arrestable offense.

...says the cop after I shoot him in his fucking face.

[Enough About Palin]

"The cop did attempt to leave. Gates followed him."

Yup. Race baiter.

[hotsauce]

The seven people didn't have to watch and listen to what was going on. They chose to stay there and subject themselves to whatever peace, if any, was being disturbed.

[Fluffy]

The cop did attempt to leave. Gates followed him.

Wow, do you always suck this much cop dick or is this a special day for you?

The cop instructed Gates that he would only listen to his complaint, and would only supply Gates with his name, if Gates accompanied him outside. This is by the officer's own admission, straight from the police report.

And guess what? My porch is my fucking house too.

[Abdul]

Fluffy,

quoting from the arrest report:

"I radioed my findings to ECC on channel two and prepared to leave. Gates again asked for my name which I began to provide. Gates becan to yell over my spoken words. . . As I began walking though the foyer to the front door, I could hear gates again demanding my name. I again told Gates that I would speak with him outside. As I descended the stairs to the sidewalk, Gates continued to yell at me. . . "

The officer says he was going to leave. Gates kept demanding his name. After twice being unable to make himself heard in the house, the officer told Gates he could follow him if Gates wanted the information.

Gates own lawyer agrees that the officer left and Gates followed of his own volition:

"The officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to Professor Gates' request for this information. After an additional request by Professor Gates for the officer's name and badge number, the officer then turned and left the kitchen of Professor Gates' home without ever acknowledging who he was or if there were charges against Professor Gates. As Professor Gates followed the officer to his own front door, he was astonished to see several police officers gathered on his front porch. Professor Gates asked the officer's colleagues for his name and badge number. As Professor Gates stepped onto his front porch, the officer who had been inside and who had examined his identification, said to him, "Thank you for accommodating my earlier request," and then placed Professor Gates under arrest. He was handcuffed on his own front porch."

Do you always have your head up your ass, or is today a special day?

[jtuf]

I oppose the detentions of both Guantanamo prisoners and psychiatric patients. However, I don't see Guantanamo as a ground breaking legal trend. If Obama can prove that the Guantanamo prisoners are a danger to themselves or others, he can legally keep them in a mental institution until they are no longer dangerous.

[Fluffy]

Fuck you, Abdul, you cop-cock-sucking cunt.

If a cop says, "Come outside and ask me your questions again," that means I get to go outside and ask my questions again.

But we already know you're a worthless cunt, since you think that the law should allow construction equipment to broadcast high decibel noise, but then turn around and allow for the arrest of people for talking loudly on their own front porch.

[anarch the free-associationist]

Porch is the word from which Stoicism derives.

I'm sure there's a moral in that, but I don't know what it is nor to whom it applies; I suspect the officer.

[Seamus]

Hey Fluffy, go take your meds now.

This incident offers no end of amusement. Both cops and racial grievance-mongerers walk around wearing big chips on their shoulders, so when one encounters the other, you can anticipate a contest to see who will be the biggest douchebag. I'm happy to say that Prof. Gates and Sgt. Crowley didn't disappoint.

[libertymike]

Seamus, how can you see it any other way? Fluffy's position is the correct one-it is the one that is consistent with liberty.

Abdul, you do not have a right not to be subjected to one who, while on his property. raises his voice, in righteous anger, in an attempt to ascertain the identification of an armed thug of the state who happens to be on his property.

[Art-P.O.G.]

As a dangler, this clause is unworthy of you, Art-P.

Hey, it was a bad grammar day for me. To be honest the structure of that post bothers me more because the first part of it was tongue-in-cheek, but the second part, about Sharpton, was dead serious.

[Seamus]

Fluffy's position is the correct one-it is the one that is consistent with liberty.

Which position? The one that Abdul is a cop-cock-sucking cunt? I don't believe that position is necessarily the only one consistent with liberty.

[Heather]

I can't believe parents are being arrested because their kids are obese. When did it actually become a crime? Sure, I get that it's bad for your health, but that's none of the government's business. I wonder when they'll start arresting adults for being obese--it's for their own good, you know.

I'm so against government involvement in my weight, I'm tempted to go out and eat a box of twinkies, only who knows, maybe it'll get me arrested.