Mark Sanford Reactions from South Carolinians

As a native of the (still great) state of South Carolina and a fellow in the Clemson Institute for the Study of Capitalism, I know a fair number of Mark Sanford supporters, and have always been one myself. During the past year I couldn't have been any happier with the way Gov. Sanford handled the duties of office, especially his stance on the stimulus. It's too bad that his image and reputation are now badly tainted.   

A brief survey of friends and professors suggests that most are mourning for the damage Sanford's now-public infidelity has caused the conservative movement in South Carolina. A long-time champion of limited government and fiscal conservatism, Sanford has been known around the state for standing on uncompromised principles and beliefs. Many fear that those values will now be questioned even more.

A sampling from my friends around the Palmetto State:  

His moral lapse has cast a pall on every idealistically-driven stance he has taken in the recent past, and perhaps throughout the entirety of his governorship.
    —Erin Gillespie, Anderson, SC

Sanford represented what true conservatism is supposed to be about. He has always fought hard for his principles, even when it wasn't politically popular, and when something like this happens, it makes it that much easier for the opposition to discredit him. It's a real blow to a movement that was just starting to take hold.    —Abby Olin, Beaufort, SC

Some said their general view of the governor was not changed:

Everyone has their vices, and while I feel that Gov Sanford's decisions were extremely poor, it does not change the fact that I agree with many of his public policy decisions.
    —Justin Prescott, Florence, SC

Others were not won over by the tearful admission:  

I thought, this was a man I could support more than McCain or any past Republican candidates. My trust in him has been shattered. I am severely disappointed in his leadership and have lost faith in the politics of South Carolina….His statement disclosing the truth does not forgive anything. 
    —Josh Morgan, Columbia, SC

I was shocked and dismayed about this turn of events.  I think Sanford will probably have to resign as a result and it will ruin his political career. My thought is he will not make it two more weeks.
    —David Woodard, Clemson, SC

As Sanford put it: "This is the first step in what will be a very long process." He was talking about his personal life, but the Sanford supporters in S.C. have a long process ahead of them as they attempt to repair the damage the governor has done to the limited-government cause.

Comments

[Franz Kafka]

Hell, I am a white male and I can empathize with the delicious temptation of and the natural surrender to a hot Argentine babe. Next issue please. (After some pics of her, of course.)

[R C Dean]

It wasn't so much that he had an affair, to me.

It was that he was shown to be batshit crazy, thinking he could conduct an affair in Argentina in secret, could sneak out of the country for days at a time with no one the wiser, etc.

The fact that his wife has proved to be such a class act only makes him look worse.

[I love Big Bro]

I'm shocked.

[FrBunny]

Wow! But what do the uncool kids think about it? And what about celebrities?!

[Eleanor Clift]

Everybody does it.

[Fluffy]

I was prepared to cut him some slack, but the taxpayer-funded trip to Argentina blows that for me.

I don't care if he gives the money back. The point is that he did it in the first place.

[Paul]

I don't care if he gives the money back. The point is that he did it in the first place.

Of course, because it implies that he's giving the money back only because he got caught.

[Episiarch]

Putting any faith whatsoever in any politician is laughable. You deserve your disappointment.

[Paul]

By the way, no one's asked the highly important but sexist question: Was she hot?

[Kater]

Stone throwin. We all do things that hurt others. This guy came clean, he showed genuine contrition. I like him even more after all of this. Sometimes we fall in love and it makes us do crazy things. Are we so self righteous that we would cast away this man, who fights for the same principles as we do, because he was overcome by something completely human, and so mundane as an affair?

And not to mention, he could have been having an affair with an albino alpaca, i wouldnt have minded so long as he stuck by not wanting stimulus money.

[domoarrigato]

Paul, that's really the only question of any merit.

[R C Dean]

She'd have to be Catherine Zeta Jones prettier sister for all this to be worth it.

[Fascitis Necrotizante]

She was ok. Kind of like a middle aged Sophia Loren but more meh.

[alan]

To sum up how I feel, a quote from David Allan Coe:

It was all I could do to keep from crying

[Paul]

She'd have to be Catherine Zeta Jones prettier sister for all this to be worth it.

She's from Argentina, so in my humble opinion, there's a chance...

She was ok. Kind of like a middle aged Sophia Loren but more meh.

Really? Hmm....

[Fluffy]

Although I will say this: his emails were released to embarrass him, but the notable thing to me was that they were actually well-written. They were maudlin, of course, but they're love letters, for Christ's sake. At least we know he can put two words together.

[brotherben]

His wife knew five months ago. I am real curious what shitstorm was about to explode that he decided to come clean now.

[Sandy]

If Sanford had not been a morals-crazy religious nutball (my definition: anybody who's a fundie), this wouldn't be such a big issue. But because Republicans, especially Southern Republicans, tie up capitalism and religiosity as if the two had anything to do with one another, the best spokespeople for limited government get shot down this way. Until the divorce of limited government/market-oriented politics and religious politics is finalized, we're just going to see more of these break-the-china fights.

So stop voting for fundies. For the children.

[Fluffy]

Re: Hotness or Notness

http://www.news.lalate.com/pictures/chapur1.html

The quality is poor, but it gives you the general idea.

[MayorOmalleySuxs]

Putting any faith whatsoever in any politician is laughable.

Epi,

That's rather harsh. I once voted for someone that deserved the faith that I put in him, but that was for the local school board. At any level higher than school board, I agree.

[alan]

brotherben | June 26, 2009, 12:13pm | #

His wife knew five months ago. I am real curious what shitstorm was about to explode that he decided to come clean now.

His dissapearance became a news item, and his leading SC GOP critic was all over the news taking him down. I believe it likely that his enemies got wind of what was going on, and used the trip as a means to fan the flames and get it out in the open. Doesn't excuse what he did, but the RealPolitik of this suggest a nicely applied demolition of a politician's career.

[Paul]

Wasn't Eliot Spitzer's wife kind of willing to, you know, overlook the whole infidelity thing so long as she could keep living in the mansion?

[Fascitis Necrotizante]

Supposed pics of his ladyfriend.

[alan]

If Sanford had not been a morals-crazy religious nutball (my definition: anybody who's a fundie), this wouldn't be such a big issue.

Sandy, you must be a bit tone deaf, because Sanford hasn't been anything like you describe him. Try a little nuance, deary.

[Episiarch]

You know she's not going to be hot. Situations like Sarkozy or Berlusconi are rare. Shit, Gary Hart/Donna Rice was 20+ years ago.

[Paul]

The quality is poor, but it gives you the general idea.

Yeah, the idea is she's got one eyebrow.

[John Thacker]

Until the divorce of limited government/market-oriented politics and religious politics is finalized, we're just going to see more of these break-the-china fights.

Well, if perhaps any sort of politician with market-oriented views that wasn't socially conservative could ever get elected to anything (particularly statewide), it would make a difference. Remember Tom Campbell getting crushed by Feinstein in California for the Senate? If not in California, where?

Market-oriented political views aren't popular, sadly.

[alan]

Fascitis Necrotizante,

his wife is better looking. Did you see her in the white tank top?

[John Thacker]

If Sanford had not been a morals-crazy religious nutball (my definition: anybody who's a fundie), this wouldn't be such a big issue.

No, the only reason it was a big issue is because he was so fiscally libertarian, sadly. He was taken down by a political action by less fiscally libertarian GOP rivals in the state, whose spending bills and pork he kept vetoing.

If he had been a more traditional social conservative and less libertarian, this would not have blown up.

Sure, if South Carolina were less socially conservative this might not have blown up either, but that's different from Sanford. (Though it's weird to talk about just GOP hypocrisy-- no Democratic politician comes out in favor of affairs or prostitutes either)

[Fascitis Necrotizante]

Alan, I've seen pics of the wife, but none in a tank top... link?

I think the main reason this blew up is because of the incredibly stupid way he handled it. Which seems to be a result of real emotional confusion on his part. For a lot of reasons I think his affair is less objectionable than that of the average philandering pol. But he's still retarded.

And I'm not sure how sound his presidential chances really were. I live in South Carolina and noticed how many enemies a man can pick up by standing in the way of legislators/bureaucrats/interest groups' lucre.

[Rich]

But if these trips produced an improvement in the South Carolina business climate ...?

[FrBunny]

Situations like Sarkozy or Berlusconi are rare.

Our (KY) former Lt Gov married Ms Kentucky Heather French Henry. Still rare, but another example.

[Tricky Prickears]

Doesn't excuse what he did, but the RealPolitik of this suggest a nicely applied demolition of a politician's career.

Could be he stepped on someone's toes or pissed off the wrong person. That's what I think happened with Spitzer. Everybody within the circle new what he was doing, and he was a real arrogant prick to begin with. This could be why they went after Spitzer.

[FrBunny]

Ms America Heather French Henry, that is.

[brotherben]

This has been going ob for a year and a half, with the friendship going back 8 years. He isn't completely daft. I believe there is much more to the story and he "allowed" himself to be caught and did the press conference to preface the coming storm. just my gut

[alan]

Alan, I've seen pics of the wife, but none in a tank top... link?

I was watching one of the majors, probably ABC News, and they showed an interview with her when she was getting ready in the morning. She wore a dark pair of dress pants, and a white tank top. Impressive figure.

[Episiarch]

Ms America Heather French Henry, that is.

Since when is Kentucky part of America? I have been gone a long time.

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

A conservative Republican having an extra-marital affair does damage to the conservative movement. Yet, having tax-and-spend liberals like Charles Rangel and Timothy Geitner "forget" to pay the taxes they so readily impose on the rest of us does absolutely no damage to liberalism or the Democrats.

[brotherben]

Epi, abbreviated KY. nuff said

[R C Dean]

Wasn't Eliot Spitzer's wife kind of willing to, you know, overlook the whole infidelity thing so long as she could keep living in the mansion?

So she's a whore, too? Big surprise.

[Michael Ejercito]

Time will tell whether Sanford ends up like Clinton or like Spitzer.

[hmm]

Ben Franklin received state sponsored whores from other countries. I'm thinking who or what you fuck has no actual bearing on your ability to execute an office.

The people that feel he is no longer capable of doing his position are just as retarded for buying into the bullshit. Of course, the reality is that now there is crack and the south is pile of social conservatives he is fucked.

[Michael]

You know she's not going to be hot.

I think the fact that he was flying to Argentina for a rendezvous as opposed to nailing some back page call girl makes up for that. Leaving aside for a moment the idea that his trips were taxpayer funded, the international nature of it adds an rare touch of class.

[ChrisO]

The affair is his own business. The disappearing act is not.

[Fist of Etiquette]

This guy can't even be honest to the woman to whom he'd pledged his life and with whom he was raising a family, and I'm supposed to trust him with my ideology. Fuck that.

[Tbone]

I'm supposed to trust him with my ideology

That's not faith, that's delusion. He's a POLITICIAN for chrissake.

I'll let 'em fuck whomever they like provided a) they don't try to tell me who I can/can't and b) don't try to politically/economically fuck me (at least not frequently).

[Fist of Etiquette]

Unfortunately, politicians are the stewards of our laws, which apply ideology to, well, everyfuckingthing. There are plenty people that can remain faithful to their spouses. (The shit ain't that hard.) If you can lie to your wife for a year you can easily show me a fiscally conservative face that is completely false. I refuse to be the Libertarian version of an Obama voter. Sanford needs to fade away as quickly and as quietly as possible.

[R C Dean]

the international nature of it adds an rare touch of class.

Thinking no one would find out about his international expeditions adds a rare touch of delusion.

[zoltan]

I totally agree with Fists of Etiquette. Rarely does someone's private life not reflect upon their public one.

[Luccia Rogers]

Sanford is one more sad, pathetic example of why so-called "small government," and "family values," conservatives oppose marriage rights for everyone. He, and his ilk, place no value on marriage. Marriage is what's expected, so they do it. But, given half a chance and a smile from a pretty face, they demonstrate that marriage vows are just words to them.

This is no "man of principle." This is a man, a hypocrite who joined the chorus against President Clinton's infidelity when it was politically expedient. This is a man, a liar, a deceiver, and an adulterer who has pandered to the hate-filled throngs to oppose the rights of people who want marriage for everyone. This is a man, who now expects the world to forgive him for his repudiation of his own "values," and "principles," and words.

Enough. Can we stop taking the GOP seriously as a real source of "leaders?" Can we let this gang of hypocrites, liars, drug addicts, false prophets, and con men fade into the obscurity of history they so richly deserve while we get on with the adult business of living lives of purpose and solving the world's challenges?

[Nash]

The emails are particularly interesting because they illuminate his character. This wasn't some married guy getting a blow job from an intern or sleeping with a hooker, it was a married guy totally in love with another woman.

I don't know if it's better or worse for him politically. You could make a case either way. But it appears he's not some sex crazed maniac but rather some sappy lovestruck goof.

The disappearance and taxpayer spending? Whatever. It's not good but it's forgivable from my point of view. I think his Presidential aspirations are done for 2012 but frankly he made that decision himself when he decided to do this in the first place, so really nothing has changed except that we are aware of it.

I hope Gary Johnson runs in 2012 so I have someone to support in the primaries.

[Fluffy]

I actually find the disappearance more forgivable than using taxpayer money to go on a trip to Argentina.

Apparently his wife had just told him to get the fuck out, that she didn't want to see him any more, and in the face of that kind of once-in-a-lifetime bad day he said, "You know what? Fuck ALL this," and bailed.

Got a wife and kids in South Carolina jack
I went out for a ride, and I never went back

Not exactly the guy I want handling the nuclear football, but an understandable and human reaction.

[TrickyVic]

"""he's not some sex crazed maniac but rather some sappy lovestruck goof"""

That just so happens to have a wife.

The problem for him is that the GOP loves to talk about things that can distroy marriage and how those things are immoral, wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated. GOP claims to be pro-family. Adultery is not pro-family.

[The Angry Optimist]

Luccia Rogers - please shut up. Being a partisan blowhard is no more endearing than GOP foibles.

[alan]

Sanford is one more sad, pathetic example of why so-called "small government," and "family values," conservatives oppose marriage rights for everyone.

You mean like that guy Obama who doesn't support gay marriage, and says the 'irony of it all' is he is a 'limited government kind of guy?'

[Michael Ejercito]

Can we let this gang of hypocrites, liars, drug addicts, false prophets, and con men fade into the obscurity of history they so richly deserve while we get on with the adult business of living lives of purpose and solving the world's challenges?

And the solution is to ally yourself with another gang of hypocrites, liars, false prophets, and con men?

[alan]

Adultery is not pro-family.

I have no idea how old you are but from my experience the people who are not understanding of this kind of thing tend to be young. Imagine your self with your significant other ten years down the road, do you know where your heart is going to be? Really, for certain? What about the other person, do you know?

[libertymike]

TAO-

I am inclined to think as you do about Luccia Rogers; however, in the interest of being both fair and consistent, I will withhold judgment pending her denunciation of morally challenged and hypocritically oriented democrats.

[prolefeed]

I could care less about who politicians fuck, and whether they are faithful to their spouses, so long as they work to keep government small.

Unfortunately, a lot of voters, especially female voters, consider infidelity a political death sentence.

[prolefeed]

Adultery is not pro-family.

You can love your spouse, and your children, and also love another person and have an affair with them.

Life can be messy that way.

[The Angry Optimist]

they aren't the only ones, prole. if a guy cannot keep a simple promise to be faithful, why in the world should I trust him on anything else?

[alan]

Unfortunately, a lot of voters, especially female voters, consider infidelity a political death sentence.

Unless the guy has a handsome mug and the gals want to fuck him. Then he gets the Clinton treatment which was, 'oh, he's available, then?'

Po' Sanford, with that weak chin, he looks like a young Souter. That is what is really dooming his political career.

[prolefeed]

they aren't the only ones, prole. if a guy cannot keep a simple promise to be faithful, why in the world should I trust him on anything else?

I'm taking it you haven't had an affair yet, TAO. Life is messy, and can blindside you. But, yeah, keep on being all righteous about your not being sufficiently tempted yet moral purity. Good on ya, mate!

[brotherben]

Clinton got a pass cause it was a hummer from a fatchick. People felt Empathy because a fat chick is a step backwards. Especially if you're POTUS.

[The Angry Optimist]

ah yes, we all do it! moments of weakness, who are you to judge, etc. etc. look, if you're too weak-minded to adhere to a simple promise, it has nothing to do with moral indignation. it has to do with your lack of manhood and adult sense of responsibility.

oh i know, I am soooo judgmental. whatevs, dude.

[John Thacker]

I'm taking it you haven't had an affair yet, TAO. Life is messy, and can blindside you.

Wow, nice useless speculation there. Should we all take it as given that you have had an affair, prolefeed?

[The Angry Optimist]

who is "blindsided" into actively choosing to cheat? attempting to get cheaters into the "omg I couldn't help it" victimology class is patently absurd.

[prolefeed]

John -- OK, how about some useful speculation: I think we could reasonably expect Sanford to be more humble and less hardline social-con -- more libertarian -- if his career wasn't over. I'd trust him more now that some of the sanctimony has been knocked out of him.

Or, as Mark Twain explained it, The Man that Corrupted Hadleyburg

[Tulpa]

So a libertarian is a conservative who's been caught cheating on his/her spouse?

Sorry, I don't accept that. I would hope that most married libertarians are faithful to what is at least the very serious CONTRACT of marriage. You cosmos need to get over this libertarianism == libertinism nonsense.

[Officer Caniphobe]

I'm taking it you haven't had to shoot an attacking chihuahua yet, prolefeed. Life is messy, and can blindside you.

[The Angry Optimist]

Tulpa - I consider myself "cosmo", at least in the sense of the word that "cosmopolitan" is originally used, but I don't have any truck with cheating, either.

but I couldn't agree more. Dump libertinism. It's pretty much nihilism and invalidates the strongest of feelings (love, happiness, jealousy, anger...).

guys have got to learn to deal with the fact that not everything everybody does short of "force and fraud" is de facto valid.

[TrickyVic]

"""I have no idea how old you are but from my experience the people who are not understanding of this kind of thing tend to be young. """

Are you saying that adultery IS pro-family? I'm not a youngster and I've seen it destroy many marriages. I know people do it and for an assortment of reasons, that doesn't make my premise false.

Perhaps you feel a need to justify adultery?

"""Clinton got a pass cause it was a hummer from a fatchick."""

Impeachment counts as a pass? The rightwing was trying to make hash out of him, not the good kind. Their holier than thou attitude toward their behavior took down Gingrich.

[prolefeed]

who is "blindsided" into actively choosing to cheat? attempting to get cheaters into the "omg I couldn't help it" victimology class is patently absurd.

You're assuming victimology where none is stated or implied or intended.

You seem to assume that everyone who has an affair thinks it was a bad idea, and regrets actively making that choice in hindsight.

That would be an incorrect assumption. It does not comport with objective reality.

But, thanks for showing us where the "angry" part of "The Angry Optimist" comes from.

[prolefeed]

Are you saying that adultery IS pro-family? I'm not a youngster and I've seen it destroy many marriages.

Yes, some marriages get destroyed by affairs. But, hard as it may be for you to believe, an affair can make a marriage stronger. It can lead to more open and honest communication about previously undiscussed problems. It can lead to going to counseling and fixing other things that aren't going right. It can lead to a spouse no longer taking the other for granted, and trying harder to make their love life more exciting. And so on.

It's counterintuitive, but once again -- reality isn't always the clean, bright cut-and-dried thing taught in Sunday school.

[The Angry Optimist]

*choke* spare me this moral subjectivist nonsense. if you don't have the desire to remain faithful any longer, for whatever reason, it is your obligation as a committed partner and as an adult with a mouth and a brain to speak up and say so, and say why. you do not just get to post facto justify your affair because it *happened* to have what you would think are good effects. an adulterer breaks his/her promise is a weak-minded slave to his/her impulses for doing so.

[The Angry Optimist]

I mean, I really feel sorry for your partner.

"Baby, I HAD to cheat! It was for the good of our relationship! you were boring and unappreciative"

holy diver.

[alan]

Let's walk this backwards.

Perhaps you feel a need to justify adultery?

Nope. My one marriage fell apart for reasons that had nothing to do with our sex lives. Actually an ugly combination of Ted Nugent, anorexia and veganism had something to do with it, but that is a story for another day.

Are you saying that adultery IS pro-family?

'Pro-family', really? Are you going to indulge in the lexicon of Fundie nonsense?

[alan]

It is not libertine to desire to keep the personal and the political seperate.

I've been pretty harsh to some of my friends who have been had affairs, but the reasons have been complex as prolefeed is getting at. One friend of mine called me at four o'clock in the morning after a night with an escort. He was crying and suicidal, and I talked him down.

However, a month or so after this, I really let him have it. He tried to sentimentalize that moment and it made me snap. I told him, "You cried like a woman. Accept yourself for what you are. It is not your place to cry"

That was one of my longest friendships but it pretty much ended there. He was too ashamed to face me after that.

[prolefeed]

alan -- I'd love to hear how Ted Nugent wrecked your marriage. Anorexia and veganism putting a strain on one's marriage -- that I get.

[prolefeed]

TAO -- rather than engage in an exchange of personal attacks, let's try this on for size -- every marriage has its difficulties. Married couples can choose to let an affair wreck their marriage, or they can take that as a sign that there is something missing or wrong in their relationship and choose to try to work through it.

I've known some women who have taken the "one strike and you're out" rule, and while I don't blame them for handling it that way, it might not have resulted in them being as happy as they could otherwise be.

I got an earful of the fundie opinions you voiced here while I was a member of the LDS Church, and yet I know some of those members who spout those views and yet have thoroughly unhappy marriages. And, ironically, these same people will tell you that every word of the Mormon scriptures is the inspired word of God, even though what some of those scriptures say about polygamy ought to induce a fair amount of cognitive dissonance.

There is more than one route to happiness, much as conventional morality would say otherwise.

[The Angry Optimist]

one of those routes is not cheating to try to expose what's wrong with your marriage.

Infidelity hurts, prole, and I'm frankly just astonished that you have the gall to try to justify it by claiming it's some kind of exploratory tool for flaw-finding.

Mine isn't a "fundie opinion" that comes from bizarro Jesus-worshipping world where you can just pat me on the head and say "oh, how cute! He thinks you should keep your promises to the ones you love!"

Married couples can choose to let an affair wreck their marriage, or they can take that as a sign that there is something missing or wrong in their relationship and choose to try to work through it.

Well, they wouldn't have to make that choice had the adulterer not cheated in the first place. If one or another partner feels something is missing, he or she is an adult, with a mouth and brain, and needs to say so.

The only justification for adultery is...is if you have an open marriage, and then it isn't even really "adultery" any more, it's just a different arrangement.

But when you cheat, you are basically saying "fuck you and your love and trust. I'm gonna do what I wanna do, even though I've promised you fidelity" and NOW you want to justify it because "the ends justify the means"? If you have problems, seek counseling, not new pussy.

[alan]

alan -- I'd love to hear how Ted Nugent wrecked your marriage. Anorexia and veganism putting a strain on one's marriage -- that I get.

In one sense I was making light of a sad situation, but in another, yeah, one of last arguments was about Ted Nugent.

[richard]

Sanford missed the new GOP instructional video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBKuRK1wD1A

[Michael Ejercito]

Impeachment counts as a pass?

The impeachment was for perjury, subornation of perjury, and obstruction of justice.

[John Lofton]

Forget, please, "conservatism." It has been, operationally, de facto, Godless and therefore irrelevant. Secular conservatism will not defeat secular liberalism because to God both are two atheistic peas-in-a-pod and thus predestined to failure. As Stonewall Jackson's Chief of Staff R.L. Dabney said of such a humanistic belief more than 100 years ago:

"[Secular conservatism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today .one of the accepted principles of conservatism; it is now conservative only in affecting to resist the next innovation, which will tomorrow be forced upon its timidity and will be succeeded by some third revolution; to be denounced and then adopted in its turn. American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition. It remains behind it, but never retards it, and always advances near its leader. This pretended salt bath utterly lost its savor: wherewith shall it be salted? Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth."

Our country is collapsing because we have turned our back on God (Psalm 9:17) and refused to kiss His Son (Psalm 2).

John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
[e-mail]

PS - And "Mr. Worldly Wiseman" Rush Limbaugh never made a bigger ass of himself than at CPAC where he told that blasphemous "joke" about himself and God.

[brotherben]

"Impeachment counts as a pass?"

I meant that a lot of normal folk gave him a pass and respect his work to this day. being an amazing politiker helps.

[Mad Max]

'A brief survey of friends and professors suggests that most are mourning for the damage Sanford's now-public infidelity has caused the conservative movement in South Carolina.'

Political movements seem to be able to survive the misbehavior of leaders. Liberalism managed to survive FDR's and JFK's adulteries, and this was back when Democratic politicians were famous for their preachments in favor of sexual morality. Liberalism also manages to survive Rangel's tax-cheating (as noted above) -- and the tax problems of the country's chief revenue officer. This from an administration which proclaims itself just as passionately opposed to tax cheating as to cheating on one's spouse.

'Married couples can choose to let an affair wreck their marriage, or they can take that as a sign that there is something missing or wrong in their relationship and choose to try to work through it.'

That's a good idea for all sorts of family tragedies - the death of a child, or example. The shared tragedy *could* bring the couple together and make them determined to make things better again. But it's not an argument in favor of letting your child die, in hopes it could save your marriage.

[zoltan]

Adultery is only good when both people want it (swingers!). To use it as some sort of relationship pick-me-up is pathetic at best. It's not like a terminal illness that brings people together, it is a blatant, deliberate choice to break a significant other's trust. To excuse that would be like excusing any other form of lying, though I feel like adultery is somewhere farther than lying but not as far as consistent emotional or physical abuse.

I think women tend to be less forgiving of the situation because it happens to them more often, but I could be totally off.

[zoltan]

Our country is collapsing because we have turned our back on God (Psalm 9:17) and refused to kiss His Son (Psalm 2).

Uh, kiss him where?

But if only we could get back to the time when America was right with god...and slavery...and less rights for women...as bad as the country is now, I'd say it was a lot worse for the majority of people in it a hundred years ago.

[Fluffy]

All I'm going to say on the "cheating" debate that has developed in this thread is this:

No one accidentally cheats, or happens to cheat, or finds themselves thrust into a situation where it just happens. In order to cheat, you have to set your life up beforehand in a way that facilitates your cheating. Specifically, you have to have structured your relationship with your spouse or significant other in a way that keeps them at a certain distance, so that you will have the blocks of unaccountable time that are necessary for an affair. Every person I have ever known who has cheated has done this. People who cheat do what they need to do to make sure, often years in advance, that they will have a chance to cheat.

So as far as I am concerned, I will regard everyone who cheats - everyone - as a person who is on some level scheming to have a back door out of every obligation they may appear to assume.

[Tulpa]

Specifically, you have to have structured your relationship with your spouse or significant other in a way that keeps them at a certain distance, so that you will have the blocks of unaccountable time that are necessary for an affair.

I wouldn't go that far. In the modern world spouses are bound to have such blocks of "unaccountable time" that occur naturally. For instance, a salesman who travels a lot to close deals is going to have ample opportunities to cheat on his wife without any scheming at all.

The truth lies between this and the "it just happens" idea. Adultery may well be a spur of the moment thing, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that it is an act the adulterer chooses to commit.

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Thanks