Iranian Elections: What Do You Know, And Why Should They Care?
Michael Moynihan notes below quoting Richard Just from New Republic, "so many Americans of so many different political inclinations are watching a struggle over freedom in a faraway place, and are ready to take sides" (an outcome that strikes me as dangerous and to be feared, by the way, not to be cheered, as it's the impetus to all sorts of potentially dangerous and destructive actions on the part of the U.S. government). Ryan Sager at the True/Slant site wonders what's behind all this side-taking:
I believe the Iranian election was stolen. Millions of Americans believe the same. Millions of Iranians believe the same.
But how, exactly, have we come to hold this opinion?….
….many Americans are constructing a narrative where the great mass of Iranians wanted to throw out Ahmadinejad — despite the fact that some 40%-50% of Iranians, in the best polls we have, were perfectly happy to reelect him.
It seems a few common errors are occurring here….
* Projection: Americans are projecting their hatred of Ahmadinejad onto the mass of the Iranian people.
* Confirmation bias: People, on both sides, filter all the information they take in through their own preconceptions — particularly easy to do when all the information coming out of Iran is a mishmash of rumor and propaganda.
* Halo effect: Thinking only bad (or good) things about the Iranian regime makes one think all of its characteristics and actions must be bad (or good)…..
Writing our own little narrative of what must be going on is unavoidable — humans need stories — but it's worth keeping in mind at all times that we're in the "fog of war," and the "truth" we think we're uniquely privy to is changing every instant.
As much as I admire the work being done by bloggers in this haze — see, of course, Andrew Sullivan — it's doubly biased: The bloggers are looking only for anti-regime information, and the readers are absorbing only anti-regime information. If there are mistakes, these mistakes will be remembered as the truth — even if corrected.
Ron Jacobs at Counterpunch notes the subtle insinuation in New York Times reporting that American opinion on the Iranian elections should matter to Iranian voters, and asks: Why is that?
[The Times' Bill] Keller's most honest analytical statement in his entire piece: "Saturday was a day of smoldering anger, crushed hopes and punctured illusions, from the streets of Tehran to the policy centers of Western capitals." Keller and his fellow journalists accept that the desires of Western capitals, especially Washington, should be important to Iranians. While this may certainly be the case among a small number of the intelligentsia and business community in Iran, the fact is that the West, especially Washington, is still not very popular among the Iranian masses. Not only are they aware of decades of western intervention in their affairs, the fact that thousands of US troops continue to battle forces in two of Iran's neighbors makes Washington unwanted and detested. Why should they do anything to please it? Yet, in the minds of the US news media, it is Washington's needs that dominate all discussion.
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Well, you have an election with tens of millions of paper ballots, the results are announced shortly after the polls close, and the semi-popular incumbent wins by a large margin seemingly everywhere, even in the home town of the main opposition candidate. Imagine if it was announced that John McCain had won by double digits in every state, including Illinois and Chicago. There'd have been millions in the streets here, too.
Imagine if it was announced that John McCain had won by double digits in every state, including Illinois and Chicago. There'd have been millions in the streets here, too.
No way. Americans have grown far too lazy for that sort of thing.
According to Reuters, the polls going into the election showed Ahmadinejad leading by almost a 2-1 margin. It really is hard to determine how fair the election was, but in terms of actual voting fraud, it may have been more fair than pundits on both the left and the right are willing to admit.
The opposition leader, Moudavi is not a popular guy at all; his wife wears the pants in that family. She is dynamic and well liked.
As usual, it is more complicated than meets the eye. The Mullahs keep the more dynamic moderate progressive types from running; They chose Moudavi as they knew he was not strong strong enough to defeat Ahmadinejad.
It is not so much a matter of voting fraud per se that is the issue, rather the theocratic oversight that is inconsistent with a truly democratic model.
No way. Americans have grown far too lazy for that sort of thing.
I could see it happening if Sanjaya had won American Idol.
FWIW, there's a new CSM interview feature on the alleged rigging. (It's very visible right now on Google News, which is where I came across it.) Also, see GlobalPost's extensive coverage.
I could see it happening if Sanjaya had won American Idol.
Indeed.
The talking heads are talking about something of which they don't have a clue, injecting their own narrative in the process?
Tell it isn't true, my world would be crushed by the shock...
*Tell me
...makes Washington unwanted and detested. Why should they do anything to please it?
Ha, i have something in common with Iranians then.
More fuel for the fire.
We don't know what's going on in Iran. That is why we (the government) should remain quiet about the whole damn thing. And fergawdsake, put a muzzle on that idiot Biden.
On the actual point of the blog post, I think you have to read a heckuva lot into the article to come to the conclusion that the author of the NYT article was implying, subtly or otherwise, that he believes *Iranians* should care what the US Government thinks of their elections.
I read it simply as him pointing out that the election was watched, and the results cared about, by the US government as well as the Iranian people. Which is obviously and uncontroversially true.
As several of the Iranian Tweeters I've been following have said, it's no longer just about the election. Ever since some time yesterday, it's become about the government's brutal reaction to the protests. The Basij are still rampaging through homes, offices, universities and hospitals. The ferocity of the reaction surpasses that of the 97 (or 98? I forget, too tired to look it up) student uprisings. And the anger seems to have gone beyond the students now. This is affecting normal people in their homes; even Iranian government officials have been attacked in their homes.
I'm not saying that Dinnerjacket and his mullahs will fall. Just saying the whole question of who really won doesn't matter so much at this point.
The problem is that the US government has a lot of trouble keeping its grubby little fingers out of everybody's pies. The urge to interfere must be overwhelming certain elements of Washington right now (like the CIA).
The urge to interfere must be overwhelming certain elements of Washington right now (like the CIA).
Not to be cynical or anything, but what makes you think they haven't already.
Oh, LMNOP, I think they have, unless Obama specifically called them off, and even then, they probably wouldn't listen. But I'm talking about serious interference, the kind that you can't keep in the (black) bag.
"Not to be cynical or anything, but what makes you think they haven't already."
To do that, the CIA would have to be competent, and it isn't.
The election, Mousavi vs. Ahmadinejad, was never of any real significance, except to a marginal degree within Iran itself. So who won the vote and whether the protesters are right about the theft or not is irrelevant.
What is significant is that there is open conflict between the regime Supreme Leader Khamenei (who has confirmed Ahmadinejad's election repeatedly) and the protesters. That, not the election, is the story, the conflict, and the issue. Maybe the initial spark was caused by an untruth-but the explosion is very real anyway.
It would be nice if these protests would lead to the fall of the Mullahs (hardly likely).
Then they wouldn't bomb Israel and the U.S. That would dissapoint the Rhoemites here, but, afterall, they're not advocates of American interests anyway.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Imagine if it was announced that John McCain had won by double digits in every state, including Illinois and Chicago. There'd have been millions in the streets here, too.
No way. Americans have grown far too lazy for that sort of thing.
Why is the left, even after they got control of congress and then got "THE GUY" elected, (and by a pretty good margin) still so jaded?
underzog, what have you been told about sneaking mommy's Manischewitz? you're going to have to go to bed without matzoh, ?yin.
Underzog spun the cap back on the Concord Grape Manischewitz, then decided to take another swig. If muter thought he was such a boychick, why did she let him use the computer? He was no schmendrik, after all--that's why mume would kvell when he kvetched about the meshuggene over on that web site full of goyim who he would potch around like a bunch of nebbishes.
He heard her coming and quickly shoved the bottle back into the pantry.
The anti-Semitic crack from TAO could be worse. He could have said that I was mixing Christian infant blood in the matzoh and the blood contained alcohol to get me drunk.
Hooray for the little things!
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Then they wouldn't bomb Israel and the U.S.
Has Iran ever bombed Israel?
Underzog: What a schlemiel.
Antelope... Eichmanhope (whatever your screen name is), Iran bombed and killed 242 Marines in Beruit, using their proxies and Reason "Ernst Rhoem Today" magazine's friend, Hizbollah.
You just proved my point that you Rhoemites don't care about America.
Thank you for making my job so easy.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Has Iran ever bombed Israel?
Elemenope meet Hezbollah.
Hezbollah meet Elemenope.
Now I will leave you two to enjoy your grand canyon sized cognitive dissonance together.
Antelope... Eichmanhope (whatever your screen name is)
It's not hard. Really, it isn't. If it's too many letters for you, you can always use LMNOP.
Schmuck.
Has Iran ever bombed Israel?
If you count Iranian aid to terror groups like Hezbollah and Hamas that have attacked Israel, then yes, if indirectly.
Elemenope meet Hezbollah.
Hezbollah meet Elemenope.
Yes, I'm aware of Hezbollah and their financial (and somewhat tenuous historical) connection to Iran. However, if you think that they march in absolute lockstep of that Iran has complete control over them, you're crazy. Calling Hezbollah Iran is like calling the Afghani Mujahideen the United States.
In any case, what I asked was whether one state outright bombed another using military forces. Did the Iranian military ever conduct bombing campaigns on Israeli soil?
Antelope/Eichmannhope (whatever) is just using the paranoid Jews canard. Hitler bragged about killing the Jews and then did it. Achmadinijad will, too.
I wonder if the Libertarians will cheer Achmadinijad publicly if he does destroy all of Israel (an easy task with nuclear weapons)?
I put nothing past the child molestors party.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
...is just using the paranoid Jews canard.
What. On Earth. Are you talking about? I believe Israel has every right to defend itself, and a nuclear-armed Iran would not be good for many reasons.
Is it because you are personally offended by me pointing out the incontrovertible fact that you are a schmuck?
You're full of it, Eichmannhope!
You would've been great at those gas chambers telling the poor people there that those buildings were just bath and disinfectant.
By the time Iran goes nuclear it will be too late -- con artist!
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Calling Hezbollah Iran is like calling the Afghani Mujahideen the United States.
Yes the US fought a clandestine war against the Soviet Union and did fight Soviet troops through a proxy.
and
Yes Iran is fighting a clandestine war against Israel and does bomb Israel through a proxy.
In short yes Iran has bombed Israel.
It seems that Underzog dislikes Ernst Roehm.
Do you know who else disliked Ernst Roehm (Hint: It was the same guy who had Roehm killed)?
Joshua, fighting through a proxy (which is quite a bit less direct than you make it sound) is not the same type of thing as fighting directly.
It's the difference between lend-lease and US direct involvement in WWII. You would say there's a difference, no?
I'm fairly convinced that underzog is a false-flag operation by a disturbed Neo-Nazi.
I mean, "we're living Under ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government)" is something Neo-Nazis say all the time.
I mean, "we're living Under ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government)" is something Neo-Nazis say all the time.
Yep. The other day we were taking bets on whether he was a deranged neo-nazi or simply deranged. What a putz.
And the British first said Yankee Doodle and we know who picked it up from there.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
It seems that Underzog dislikes guilt-by-association, too.
ah well. that's not a bad explanation. Kind of like how Dan Savage used to title his column "Hey, Faggot!"
well, I also don't know what it is that underzog has against homosexuals. I mean, Rohm was a well-known homosexual, and underzog uses his name as an insult, so I can only assume underzog is a homophobe.
Homophobe? You complain about my nickname and you use trashwords such as homophobe?
Homophobia literally means a person who has a fear of sameness (homo + phobia).
And my hatred for homosexuals doesn't extend to stoning them, pushing walls upon them, and hanging them as your buddies in Iran and the rest of the Moslem world do.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Okay.... I confess! I have homophobia; i.e., fear of sameness.
The sight of two basketballs together fills me with dread.
Feel better at my confession now?
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Homophobia literally means a person who has a fear of sameness (homo + phobia).
Hey look! Underzog took a five-minute online course (certified!) on Greek prefixes and suffixes!
Also, he has news for you. Did you know that "driveway" literally means "place that you drive"?
Schmuck.
I will prove I am not a homophobe you stupid Rhoemites! I will send you pics of me blowing myself...would a homophobe do that?
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
There you have the Reasonoids refuting my arguments, calling me the yiddish word for prick and stalking me with a clumsy imitator who insinuates that I do things to myself that only Ron Jeremy can do.
At least you didn't accuse me of murdering some dyke the way you guys smeared Michelle Malkin.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
There you have the Reasonoids refuting my arguments
Yep.
...calling me the yiddish word for prick...
There you go, all focusing on the fact that you're a schmuck. Don't forget schlemiel and putz! It's a Yiddish hat trick.
...and stalking me with a clumsy imitator who insinuates that I do things to myself that only Ron Jeremy can do.
Ron Jeremy has a fan, I see. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
The government has ended news coverage, arrested leaders, denied reality of what is happening, and all those people are in the street. Whatever the count, the reaction is not a 2:1 victory cry. Something is amiss.
You would say there's a difference, no?
No. Lend-Lease was an act of war, and March 11th, 1941 marks the actual date of entry of the United States into the Second World War.
This is how liberal governments destroy other governments: they sew doubt, claim moral superiority, and chide the weakest people in those nations to accept the "moral" option.
I agree with Warmongering Lunatic: the United States and United Kingdom conspired to enter the second world war.
Seems like a poor conspiracy, then, you know, getting attacked at Pearl Harbor and all and setting the Pacific War back two years.
Yeah, that's a helluva plan.
Hmm. See, I don't agree with you, Brett. I'd more say that FDR wanted to make war on Nazi Germany, and he did so to the extent that he could bypass Congress and cajole Congress into cooperating, always hoping to exhaust Hitler's patience.
Back on topic:
underzog is Brett Stevens? or are there that many distinct [insert insult here]s on the internet?
It's the difference between lend-lease and US direct involvement in WWII. You would say there's a difference, no?
I would say the difference is the the difference between sending your own troops in and hiring Mercenaries to do it for you....
Which is to say no difference at all.
We gave money and material support to the Afgan fighters to do a job for us.
Iran does the same thing with Hezbollah.
As a left wing nut job i am sure you place the liability of the acts of say Blackwater while they are in the employ of the state department with the State Department no? Why be a hack when it comes to mercenaries who happen to have a consistent political agenda with their patrons?
The Iranians are not dishing out 60-100 million a year to Hezbollah for nothing. They are paying them to attack Israel.
let's do this: agree that when underzog speaks, it's full of dumb, and he stated that he hoped the Mullahs fall so they won't "bomb Israel and the U.S." Presumably, he was talking about potential future acts. Ergo, when El said "Iran hasn't done either of these yet", strictly speaking, he's correct, in terms of rockets and official military action and the big *NUKE* word.
so, let's drop the semantic silliness.
Yes, TAO of Judenhass, let's drop the semantic silliness. You, Eichmannhope, Mr. Nazi Guy, Fluffy, shewolf of the SS, and Bake-dem-Jews-again are eliminationist anti-Semites who can't wait for Iran to have the nuke and take care of the Zionist entity and its 5.5 million Jews.
The wise man sees tomorrow today. He doesn't wait for Achmadinijad or the other guy to test his nuclear bombs on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as if in some Libertarian narcotic stupor.
As former Pres. Bush would say, one does not wait for the knife to be at one's throat.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
As a left wing nut job i am sure you place the liability of the acts of say Blackwater while they are in the employ of the state department with the State Department no?
A left-wing nutjob? Wha...?
Anyway, TAO got the point, which is that Iran has shown no historical willingness to engage in direct acts of war with Israel, as Underzog claimed they were chomping at the bit to do. The political calculations are very different for engaging in a proxy war than engaging in a direct war, and so a country may well be willing to engage in the former but for practical reasons never have the capacity or political will to do the latter.
They are different acts, and have different domestic and international consequences.
So, underzog, if the threat is as great as you claim, presumably Israel knows everything you know (and then some)...why haven't they destroyed Iran, as you are claiming they should? They are the only nuclear power in the region, after all.
Could it be that they do not share your ridiculous appraisal of the security situation?
Please.
Arguing with underzog is totally feeding the troll.
Arguing with underzog is totally feeding the troll.
Yeah, but I'm not a mean person by nature, so I rarely have opportunities to practice.
Likewise. But, surprisingly underzog's antics are wearing thin with me (although I love the Lonewackoesque parodies of u-z).
I still suspect that u-z is a nom de plume of another commenter, but if so, whose is a mystery to me.
I still suspect that u-z is a nom de plume of another commenter, but if so, whose is a mystery to me.
Well, if it is a false-flag spoof troll, there is a regular commenter who is obsessed with the destruction of Israel to the point of derangement.
Advertisements for Muslim dating sites? Here? On Reason?
Think they will accept this one?:
"Middle aged atheist citizen of the Great Satan seeks Middle Eastern hottie willing apostate herself."
Think that would work?
C'mon Eichmannhope!
Why haven't the Libertarians at least adopted a less hostile position toward Israel and a more critical position toward Islam after John Mohammed shot and severely wounded a Libertarian party activist/leader during his sniper/serial killing spree?
Why hasn't the U.S. dropped its demands for another pali state -- besides the artifical state of Jordan -- after the Palis danced joyously over the loss of over 3000 souls on 9/11: HERE?
Appeasement of Muslims is near complete between Israel and its former ally, America. Israel should've been making you, MNG: etc., scream much louder during Operation Cast Lead, but the fear of the gentile infects a lot of the Jews in Israel and a most of the Jewish leadership.
If Kahane, Zt"l had lived, he would've taken care of all of this in a month and ignored the world's (and yours') screaming and foam-at-the-mouth hatred against the Jews, but the present Israeli government is too frightened to nuke Iran as it probably should. They'll think what will the world say?
For myself, I don't give a damn what the world or you say.
You and world opinion be damned!
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
And Sugarfree... lay off the drugs that you and the other Libertarians extoll so much.
If your minds were not all shorted on cocaine, heroin, and angel dust, you wouldn't say such stupid, Turnspeak Propaganda against me.
It is because of comments from you and the rest of the Rhoemites, that I have revised my position and no longer think drugs should be legalized.
We can't have the sick thinking drugs such as angel dust; etc., bring on and survive as a civilized, productive society.
You Reasonoids have demontrated that on this board.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Yo dawg, I heard you like to read my name in my posts, so I put my name in my post under my name in post so you can read my name while you read my name.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Thank you for making my job so easy.
Your job of being completely batshit insane on the subject of Israel?
Whoever you are in real life, on the Internet you are absolutely fucking looney tunes when it comes to Israel, or discussing countries who don't like Israel. If I see you in a thread, it is almost certain that you are accusing somebody of being antisemitic. It's ludicrous.
If anything you said was the slightest bit coherent, it'd also be frightening, but for now you're a sideshow.
It is because of comments from you and the rest of the Rhoemites, that I have revised my position and no longer think drugs should be legalized.
You fucked up there, Spoofy Smurf. There's a troll that used to use that line all the time. Anybody else remember that?
no...not Lefiti? I suggested this the other day, but that would imply that Lefiti has evolved into a meta-troll or possibly a meta-meta-troll.
If you mean Lefiti, that would suggest the guy has no life, but then I guess that wouldn't be a shock to anyone.
Art,
I think Lefiti used it as well, but I was pretty sure it was a right-wing troll that popularized it. The archive is letting me down; there are too many common words to search.
Oh, and want more evidence he's a spoof? He SugarFree'd a link in a post responding to me. Overplayed his hand a bit there, even if it was the only funny thing he's managed to do.
What is significant is that there is open conflict between the regime Supreme Leader Khamenei (who has confirmed Ahmadinejad's election repeatedly) and the protesters. That, not the election, is the story, the conflict, and the issue. Maybe the initial spark was caused by an untruth-but the explosion is very real anyway.
True.
Mousavi, the man, almost doesn't matter at this point. Young Iranians are fighting for what he represents --- change. At the end of the day, might it just have been Obama change? I guess it's possible, but I really don't think so. I've been following tweets and links to blogs for three days now, and I'm shocked by what I've been reading; there's a true push for liberty happening on the streets of Tehran right now.
And a push for liberty, anywhere, is something that likely resonates with everyone of us.
GodDAMN do I wish I could edit posts after I submit.
Hmmm...the plot thickens.
😀 Could've been a coincidence, but then it might not have been.
Sugarfree,
Neil?
This quote alone would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt in a court of public opinion that u-z is either a spoof troll or truly deranged:
OK, or maybe both.
Underzog is either. Dave sim or one of you guys.
Cabeza, you're my hero.
If Hit n' Run were an M. Night Shyamalan movie, Neil and Lefiti would also end up being the same person.
Neil was Cesar, though, right?
Maybe one person has always been behind most of the trolls on H&R. It would explain why they all say the same stupid shit.
The link to UZ's site in my last post was from when I spoofed him.
I wish posting here was less glitchy, I really do.
It's like a half-remember tune I can't get the title for. Gonna bug me all day.
I don't think it was Neil. He usually kept to the short posts except when arguing. I could be wrong. I didn't interact with Neil very much. Epi did, I'll ask him when he gets up. Or one of The Sublimed might want to weigh in...
Cesar is still around. He was not a troll as such, and Neil was his anti-anti-Ron Paul performance piece. He's still here under another handle, cracking jokes.
Sugarless,
This is going to bug me also, but I do remember a troll using that line. I searched Neil & came up empty.
OK, guys... here it is:
underzog is Donderoooooooooo!
I see a difference between bombing somebody and fiscally/materially supporting a group that would be doing it anyway.
Back to the top: Why are we surprised these people assumes Iranians should care what we think? They're the same people that assume that WE should care what the rest of the world thinks about our politics...
"underzog is Donderoooooooooo!"
That had crossed my mind before, but I thought even Donderoooooooo can't be that stupid. Guess he is that stupid.
Still can't find the drug line.
I did find the thread when I told everyone about Elemenope's sexual fetish for crying clowns, though. And it's one of the funniest gay marriage threads I can remember.
"miche | July 13, 2007, 10:46pm | #
Wait, I thought Zog and Dondero were the same. Should not have had the last glass of wine at dinner I guess."
You're not the first to see the connection it seems.
Good google, Cabeza.
I'm not going to crow about it too much. It's so obvious in hindsight. The long rambling posts, the poisonous paranoia about Muslims... the only real difference is that zog doesn't ramble on about the old days when he walked ten miles uphill in the snow each way to deliver LP buttons.
http://gizmodo.com/5293878/ahmadinijad-lying-again-with-photoshop
Homophobia literally means a person who has a fear of sameness (homo + phobia).
Riiiight. By the same token, anti-semitism literally means opposition to Semites, and since Arabs are Semites, it's nonsense to accuse them of being anti-semitic.
Oh, yes, and because the suffix "-ee" is the French ending for a feminine past participle, an "attendee" is literally a female person who is being attended, not a person of either sex who is attending a meeting or other event.
Sheesh. As Eugene Volokh frequently points out, etymology is not definition.
Except with anti-Semitism, it was a Jew hater, Leftwing athiest -- William Mahr -- who coined the term anti-Semitism.
Mr. Mahr wanted a more elegant and scientific term than Judenhass. It was probably the homos themselves that coined the term, homophobia.
You Jew haters can't have it both ways. Your philosophic descendants can't coin a term such as anti-Semitism to give you guys more elegance and then switch to say it doesn't really mean what their creators meant.
I did not create the term homophobia (or Islamophobia for that matter) so I am not dishonest and deceitful in my criticism of it, but you Rhoemites/Libertarian anti-Semites are being deceitful with the term that your philosophical descendant coined.
As for the homosexualist movement coining such a term as homophobia, they're just being stupid.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
P.S. it appears Dondero attributes the silence of the Libertarian movement toward the near killing of the Libertarian leader to faithfulness for this non interventionist nonsense. I wouldn't attribute the silence to that. I attribute the silence of the Rhoemites to eliminationist anti-Semitism. The desire to destroy Israel 5.5 million Jews trumps all with the Rhoemites and no brutal action by your Islamic savage friends can change that.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"