The Pope in Israel: "He Was a Part of Them!"

Drudge is leading today with Israeli criticism of Pope Benedict's Holocaust speech at Yad Vashem, during which, according to one local newspaper, he appeared "restrained, almost cold." Speaker of the Knesset Reuven Rivlin stepped up attacks on Benedict, accusing him of a fascist past: "He came and told us as if he were a historian, someone looking in from the sidelines, about things that should not have happened. And what can you do? He was a part of them." (emphasis added)

According to Rivlin, Benedict was a "German who joined the Hitler Youth and…a person who joined Hitler's army, which was an instrument in the extermination." It is a tired debate at this point, the details of which were pored over after Benedict's ascension to the papacy, but it is also worth quickly pointing out that the Pope-as-Nazi charge is still an enormous stretch.

Rivlin is presumably pointing to this 1996 statement, when the then-Cardinal Ratzinger addressed his membership in the Hitler Youth (HJ) in an interview: "At first we weren't, but when the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941 (sic), my brother was obliged to join. I was still too young, but later, as a seminarian, I was registered in the HY (sic). As soon as I was out of the seminary I never went back."

Ratzinger's memory is slightly off here: membership in the Hitler Youth became compulsory in 1939, not 1941, when the number of 10- to 18-year-old Germans enrolled reached an astonishing 98.1 percent. If they weren't first compelled by their parents, school comrades, or teachers, they were then compelled by the state. It is disingenuous to state, without qualification, that Ratzinger "joined the Hitler Youth."

As for the claim that Benedict was "part of them," a "person who joined Hitler's army," Reuters explains that this is likely a reference to having "served on anti-aircraft batteries" as a member of the HJ. In early 1943, Luftwaffe chief Hermann Goering ordered HJ members between the ages of 15 and 17 to serve as anti-aircraft gunners, in order to reroute 120,000 servicemen to more active roles on the front lines. According to historian Michael Kater, author of a history of the Hitler Youth and this terrific book on jazz culture in Nazi Germany, the total number of children conscripted into the anti-aircraft corps between 1943 and 1945 was approximately 200,000. By the end of the war, when the country was relying on a mixture of the elderly and underage, flak crews of HJ members included both boys and girls.

There are plenty of things for which Pope Benedict—and the Catholic Church—deserves criticism (especially the disgraceful Bishop Williamson episode). But his childhood isn't one of them.

Comments

[Yad Vashem]

No blessings for you! Come back, one year!

NEXT!

[Mad Max]

Reuven Rivlin: When *Reason* magazine begins saying that your criticism of the Pope is excessive, then maybe, just maybe, you should consider the possibility that you have gone off the deep end.

It's as if Louis Farrakhan told you that you're being too harsh on white people.

[johnl]

OK, B16 is cold and restrained compared to the bold and charismatic JP2. What a strange thing to complain about.

[Mad Max]

The Pope made himself liable to *capital punishment* by deserting from Hitler's armed forces. How many members of the Knesset, or the Reason Foundation, committed a capital crime by defying Hitler?

As rabbi David Dalin makes clear, the Pope's predecessor, Pius XII, saved more Jews from Hitler's gas chambers than Reuven Rivlin and the Reason Foundation put together.

[VM]

"There are plenty of things for which Pope Benedict-and the Catholic Church-deserves criticism (especially the disgraceful Bishop Williamson episode). But his childhood isn't one of them. "

qft.

and I have the mel gibson wanna be mentally filtered, so I can only imagine what twisted, sick contortions he's going through to make his grand salamander pure.

(Sinead did a good thing on SNL)

[?]

Ok, is it "HY" or "HJ"?

[ed]

Then again, it's the friggin' Pope. Given the history of this enterprise, what exactly are the standards? Murder, mayhem, adultery...it's not like it hasn't been done.

[jester]

Awesome. Let's get the hagiography going on Benedict (aka Ratzinger). Miracle No. 1: evaded Nazis and lived. Miracle No. 2: was German and didn't become a libertine atheist frequenting gender-bending clubs in Berlin.

I'd say he's a sure bet.

[ev]

Hitler Youth=HY.

Hitler Jugend=HJ auf deutsch

[libertymike]

Mad Max-

Amen. Except Moynihan should be skewered for his reference to Bishop Williamson. Again, if you write for a periodical which falsely claims to be about free minds and free markets, you should be relentless in your condemnation of hate speech laws and the oirganizations that promote them.

One such organization is the ADL. Another is the Southern Poverty Law Center. These groups are the very quintessence of "hate" and "extremism" as they seek to criminalize thought. When the revolution comes, believe me, they better hope that the John Galts of the world show them more mercy than they have extended to those who have questioned the holocaust narrative.

Christians have the right to say that the jews were christ killers. Muslims have the right to say that jews are swine. In a free society, there is no "right" for a group to be offended.

[Geena]

Screw the Hitler Youth thing. Ratzinger's actions and statements as an adult are what make him a vulgar, disgusting asshole.

[libertymike]

Genocide in Gaza. That is what the pope should be talking about. Ethnic cleansing and the culture of hate championed by the socialist cess pool-Israel.

[Mister DNA]

OT, but has anyone else read about Hugo Chavez launching a cell phone line?

Is the name Spanish for "Dictaphone"?

[libertymike]

I'll take the pope over "Bibi" any day. I would take Chavez over Begin. I would take Castro over Sharon.

Who has butchered more people?

(a) Begin
(b) Sharon
(c) David Duke

[jester]

libertymike,

yes free speech is protected. Moynihan isn't suggesting it shouldn't. But defending free speech isn't the same as defending stupidity.

I can defend a holocaust-denier his free speech, but that doesn't mean I agree with the mongoloid.

[matt]

This controversy is a clash between two ways of understanding guilt and responsibility.

In Western Civilization, there is a tradition of judging people based on their own actions:

How is the individual connected to the wrong that was committed?

Was the connection coerced?

Was it an accident of birth?

Jewish thought retains an element of tribalism, perhaps due to it's unique situation as both a religion and an ethnicity. Guilt often gets assigned collectively:

He was a part of them!

One of the tragedies of the Western world today is that we're giving up our healthy, just, individualistic set of criteria for assigning guilt and replacing it with this other one.

Don't get me wrong, Europeans have an ugly history of tribalism and racism, too (cf: the crusades, Salem, Jim Crow lynching, etc). The difference is that these things are contrasted against the normal (personal responsibility) framework and condemned, at least after the fact.

You can't argue against "He was a part of them!"

It exists outside the scope of reason.

[crimethink]

In a free society, there is no "right" for a group to be offended.

Of course there is a right to be offended, so long as that offense doesn't take the form of coercing those who offend you.

The right to say something is not the same as the right to be free from criticism for saying it. I'm a loyal Papist myself and I scratch my head wondering what Benedict was thinking during that episode. I know he's trying to bring the Lefebvrites back into the fold, but to be caught so flat-footed on the matter makes one wonder.

[jester]

Also a dickhead dictator is a dickhead dictator. I don't need to get out a color wheel to see just how dickheaded he is. Dickhead sufficeth.

[Elasomorph]

Right. If only Jews would be more like Europeans, who as we know never take out their frustrations on minority groups.

[Mad Max]

libertymike,

Please tell me you're a Protestant.

[libertymike]

Elasomorph-

Who here is touting europeans as paragons of virtue?

[jester]

he's obviously a mormon.

[libertymike]

Jester-

There is a surfeit of energy expended castigating folks like Bishop Williamson. From Reason and too many other Zionopiles here, there is comparatively little condemnation of hate speech legislation and prosecution and the organizations, like ADL and AIPAC, along with the Southern Poverty Law Center, that support them.

What is stupid is to spend a disproportioate amount of time screaming that Williamson is stupid or anti-semetic while not opposing hate speech legislation and prosecution and its supporters with every fibre of one's being.

[crimethink]

libertymike defies your feeble attempts to categorize him.

[libertymike]

Mad Max-

You know that I am not a "when in Rome, do as the Romans" type of guy.

[Elasomorph]

libertymike, some of us don't have much fibre in our beings to oppose with. But I have some extra saturated fat if that helps.

[Elasomorph]

You know that I am not a "when in Rome, do as the Romans" type of guy.

I used to be, but then Episiarch told me that European women don't walk around bare breasted all the time.

[MJ]

So to Reuvan Rivlin anyone who has been compelled into the service of the state is responsible for the crimes of that state? Interesting opinion for one who's country has compulsory military service.

[libertymike]

Crimethink-

Anarcho-free enterprise-individualist.

Can you tell I abhor groupthink? IMO, one who identifies oneself exclusively, principally or even significantly, by one's race, religion, national origin, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation and nation state is one intellectually challenged, spiritiually stunted piece of cannon fodder puddy in the hands of the totalitarian gangsters like Adolph Hitler, to name one.

[libertymike]

Elasomorph-

Endomorphs are cool. My office manager is an endomorph. She is a Mad Max type of gal-she would never walk around bare breasted-except on family planning nights, exclusively with her husband.

[jester]

LibMike,

There is no overpiling nor can there ever be any overpiling on any stupid idea or thought. If we could put stupid ideas inside Yucca Mountain, maybe Nevadans would be even more vociferous.

Neither I nor Reason (in my experience) seem to be shills for the statist Israel nor US policy towards Israel. Au contraire, mon frere.

Calling out the AIPAC, ADL or SPLC and applying a sliding scale of dishonesty is not fair on your part. Why can't I call it all bullshit. I don't need a microscope to determine bullshit.

If you are a practicing faithful Catholic, you have volunteered to come to a no-holds-barred forum. Your faith will be trashed consistently and repeatedly.

God Bless You for caring enough to visit and take your medecine. There are important things in this world that the Catholic Church has willfully ignored. Maybe that is why you are here?

[Mad Max]

'IMO, one who identifies oneself exclusively, principally or even significantly, by one's race, religion, national origin, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation and nation state is one intellectually challenged, spiritiually stunted piece of cannon fodder puddy in the hands of the totalitarian gangsters like Adolph Hitler, to name one.'

Were this thread not pre-Godwinned, you would have Godwinned it.

[libertymike]

Mad Max-

That means I go out of my way to point out that there is a grand canyon sized divide between a priest sodomizing a six year old and ole father Coleman who had an affinity for grabbing the cheeks of the sixteen and seventeen year old boys and maintaining his grip for an extra second or two while assisitng them up the ladder of the raft nestled in the middle of a pastoral lake (could not resist) while on the annual parish/youth summer outing.

Max, distincitons like the above matter-

[Episiarch]

I used to be, but then Episiarch told me that European women don't walk around bare breasted all the time.

Hey, go to a nude beach on the Mediterranean. You'll see. You'll mostly see old guys' balls and a few saggy old ladies, but hey, you need to experience this for yourself.

As for the Pope, you're all failing to answer the ultimate question: does he shit in the woods?

[Mad Max]

libertymike,

Uh, what?

[Seamus]

i>I can defend a holocaust-denier his free speech, but that doesn't mean I agree with the mongoloid.

And lifting Williamson's excommunication is not an endorsement of said mongoloid's views.

(In other late-breaking news, the Catholic Church no longer excommunicates people for their views, whether mongoloid or scientific, on whether the earth revolves around the sun.)

[jester]

Youth Summer Outing:

So you Catholics determine who is gay during summer get-togethers. Great way to pick a celibate priesthood.

Disclaimer: I don't identify with your 'group', you do. I still see you as LibertyMike and MadMax.

[libertymike]

Mad Max-

Please? Not buying it at all.

1. See my last post.

2. I have always made damn sure that the names of Stalin, Mikoyan, Beria, Andropov, Molotov, Mao, Ivan the Terrible, Jackson (andy the cherokee hater) Lincoln, Sherman, Custer (June 24, 1876 was awesome, baby!), Eisenhower (Bonus marchers, 1932-check that out) et al are not forgotten in discussions about mass murderers. Since O.J. was acquitted, I do not include him.

3. The canon fodder are puddy for lesser gangsters like Father Coughlin and Jerry "triple chin" Falwell as well.

4. There are a lot of people here who might think that I don't take off the gloves regarding the vagabond from vienna.

Max, your Godwin shot is an air ball.

[jester]

Seamus,

Enlighten me. I think of the Catholic Church as a dogmatic religion. Orders come from on High.

Ergo, readmitting someone who went off the deep-end without repentence(Or did he repent??? Need to know this) is acceptance.

So in essence The Vatican is accepting these views.

Again, enlighten me.

[Mad Max]

Seamus,

The Vatican was acknowledging the reality of global warming in 2001, when Ron Bailey was denying it.

Fortunately, Reason staffer Ron Bailey later accepted the scientific evidence and
belatedly came around to the Church's position.

Tell me again who fails to keep up with scientific developments?

[libertymike]

Jester-

I am a retired Catholic. I was an altar boy and later a lectern. I was exposed to many priests. Never, not once, did any priest get out of line with me. Nor did I ever hear of any such activity growing up in the 1970s and early 80s.

[jester]

apologies to MadMax. You are absolved.

LibertyMike, please reexamine what you are saying. You are better than that.

[Mad Max]

jester,

Thank you for the benevolent sentiments you displayed in attempting to absolve me.

The Pope has already explained his stance on Bishop Williamson. As he makes clear:

'As long as the Society [of St. Pius X - the schismatic association in which Williamson is a leader] does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.'

[libertymike]

Mad Max-

You can't tell me that you were not troubled by the manner in which the Boston Globe covered the scandal? The MSM, in general?

[libertymike]

Jester-

Re-examine what, in particular?

[jester]

libmike,

you did not have to divulge your unexciting altarboy career. I know that the Catholic Church is a lot like Disneyland when it had A through E tickets. And I am only picking on Catholicism because this is the nature of the article.

But, your experience doesn't negate other experiences. As a fellow libertarian you should be one who understands the culture of abuse that comes with authoritarian rule.

peace.

[libertymike]

Jester-

Agreed. I see. Of course, my experiences can not speak for every other altar boy and such.

Its just the Atticus Finch/Clarence Darrow/Matthew Mconaughey (A time to Kill) complex that I have.

[Mad Max]

the Vatican Secretary of State has explained that

'the four Bishops [including Williamson], while relieved of the excommunication, do not have a canonical function in the Church and do not licitly exercise a ministry in her. . . .

'For future recognition of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, the full recognition of Vatican Council II and the Magisterium of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul, John Paul II, and of Benedict XVI himself, is an indispensable condition. . . .

'The positions of Mons. Williamson on the Shoah are absolutely unacceptable and are firmly rejected by the Holy Father . . .

'Bishop Williamson, for admission to an Episcopal function in the Church, must publicly and unequivocally distance himself from his positions concerning the Shoah, not known to the Holy Father at the moment of the remission of the excommunication.'

[jester]

Mad Max,

Your absolution was a personal one, human to human. You seemed to allude to my bestowing greater forces. You are mistaken.

As for you and your Faith, you are in your element. From an outside perspective, I am anti-dogmatic and therefore probably unlikely to adhere to anything the Catholic Church promulgates.

I am cool with you. peace.

[Mad Max]

'You can't tell me that you were not troubled by the manner in which the Boston Globe covered the scandal? The MSM, in general?'

It is in the nature of the media to attack the Church, just as it is in the nature of serpents to be poisonous. The media still did a useful function by exposing abuses - just as the Assyrians performed a useful function be being the agent of God to punish God's people. You don't have to be pro-Assyrian to acknowledge that, and you don't have to be pro-media to acknowledge their role as a scourge to chastize the Church for the bad behavior of too many of her sons.

[Mad Max]

jester,

Peace to you, too. I don't expect to convert you via a blog. You could probably talk in person to Catholics you know to get more information about our faith, if you're interested. Or you can check out a local Catholic church, if (as is likely) there is one in your neighborhood.

But we're totally Post-Vatican II now. There's no obligation.

[jester]

'unequivocally distance himself from his positions concerning the Shoah'

Very well done. That spells repentence. So now I agree with you. Why did you take so long?

[zoltan]

I am a retired Catholic. I was an altar boy and later a lectern. I was exposed to many priests. Never, not once, did any priest get out of line with me. Nor did I ever hear of any such activity growing up in the 1970s and early 80s.

You were probably ugly then.

[zoltan]

The Vatican was acknowledging the reality of global warming in 2001, when Ron Bailey was denying it.

Fortunately, Reason staffer Ron Bailey later accepted the scientific evidence and
belatedly came around to the Church's position.

Tell me again who fails to keep up with scientific developments?

One person who's not even a research scientist compared to a Church who accepted something before or after the majority of climate scientists and regular scientists did? Not exactly the best a-ha moment for you, buddy.

[Mad Max]

'Why did you take so long?'

Because the media misrepresentations of the Church can get halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its showlaces.

I'm not sure I'd call it 'repentance.' That's like 'have you stopped beating your wife?'

To be sure, in its initial press releases on the issue, the Vatican should have explained more clearly the status of Williamson and the other SSPX people whose excommunications were lifted. The Pope's press people should have known that the media is incredibly ignorant and biased about Catholic matters, and unless they're carefully spoon-fed, they will get the story wrong.

But it was *never* true that Williamson was absolved of all his errors. The Vatican didn't even seem to know about Williamson's Holocaust remarks. Even if it had known, lifting the excommunication was a good idea - as the Pope put it, meeting the schismatics of the Society of Saint Pius the X halfway and trying to get them back into the Church's fold.

The reason this gesture was made to the four leaders of the SSPX is not primarily because of concern for these leaders as individuals (although as lost sheep, they cannot ever be excluded from the Church's care), but on account of the followers, sincere and pious people who aren't Nazis of any kind, but who have been misled into this schism by Williamson and others in response to genuine abuses in the Church.

It is primarily for the sake of these good people, the rank-and-file members of SSPX, that these excommunications were lifted. That seems to have escapted the attention of the media.

[jester]

'just as the Assyrians performed a useful function be being the agent of God to punish God's people'

MadMax, that is a very un-libertarian statement. Of course, 'Assyrians' refers to an autocratic government not a people per se. But really, 'God's people' is anti-libertarian.

I perceive you as a faithful Christian who is probably very alone in his community in terms of his political beliefs. I can see why you are frustrated.

All my Catholic friends voted Obama. And they did it faithfully!

[Mad Max]

'One person who's not even a research scientist compared to a Church who accepted something before or after the majority of climate scientists and regular scientists did? Not exactly the best a-ha moment for you, buddy.'

You mean the Church was right *too soon,* before all the evidence was in? Even if that were the case (which I don't admit), the same could be said of Galileo, who didn't have all his scientific ducks in a row when he propounded his heliocentrism. Yet we give Galileo a pass for being right.

[Mad Max]

Of course, Einstein would scoff at the idea that the universe is either earth-centered *or* heliocentric.

[Mad Max]

'I perceive you as a faithful Christian who is probably very alone in his community in terms of his political beliefs. I can see why you are frustrated.

'All my Catholic friends voted Obama. And they did it faithfully!'

There are millions of Catholics who would never *think* of voting Democrat.

I have Catholic friends who almost certainly *did* vote for Obama. I value their friendship highly, and I feel the very reverse of 'alone' with them.

[jester]

Yes, I see you were wounded personally. that is going to happen here. But that is the beauty of this site. You can say anything, with abandon.

[John Tagliaferro]

As rabbi David Dalin makes clear, the Pope's predecessor, Pius XII, saved more Jews from Hitler's gas chambers than Reuven Rivlin and the Reason Foundation put together.

Isn't that like an a+0=a in math?

[John Tagliaferro]

Of course, Einstein would scoff at the idea that the universe is either earth-centered *or* heliocentric.

As would Vatican astronomer Father Jose Gabriel Funes.

[Mad Max]

'Yes, I see you were wounded personally.'

Didn't mean to suggest that. He-who-is-not-to-be-named, and who left this site a while ago, said some wounding things, but he was Catholic himself. As for the rest of you, I don't like all your positions, but I don't feel *wounded* - that would be like expressing surprise that water is wet. It's what you expect trolling on a secular libertarian blog. So fire away!

[jester]

BTW, Nicolas Copernicus, a very Catholic person, started the Heliocentric thing. He was Polish by the way, Mikolay Kopernik. And in the Vatican!

[Mad Max]

'Isn't that like an a+0=a in math?'

Yes, but a is considerably greater than 0 in this instance.

[John Tagliaferro]

The Vatican was acknowledging the reality of global warming in 2001, when Ron Bailey was denying it.

Now there is a perfect reason not to believe in the humans occupying the Vatican.

[John Tagliaferro]

Yes, but a is considerably greater than 0 in this instance.

One of us may not be understanding the nuance of what I wrote. But I am just arriving home from happy hour.

[Just asking?]

Is it any surprise to see a neo-nazi holocaust denier, like Libertymike, in a thread like this?

[John Tagliaferro]

MM,

That would be me. Understand you now 🙂

[jester]

So Pleased to Meet You, Mad Max

My Name is Jester. I understand Religion and its adherents. I don't underestimate you; instead, I understand you.

I look fwd to future sparring.

cheers,

jester

[John Tagliaferro]

Is it any surprise to see a neo-nazi holocaust denier, like Libertymike, in a thread like this?

From all of my lurker years, the answer is no.

Genocide in Gaza.

There you go. Libertymike is filling in for MNG.

[Mad Max]

'BTW, Nicolas Copernicus, a very Catholic person, started the Heliocentric thing. He was Polish by the way, Mikolay Kopernik. And in the Vatican!'

Which just goes to show that the Vatican is anti-science . . . wait . . . no it doesn't.

Anyway, if you want to be freed from the stifling influence of Papal astronomy, feel free to use this Julian date converter to change dates in the superstitious Gregorian Calendar to the proper date in the Julian Calendar, which the Gregorian calendar replaced.

Not to plug my upcoming book, The Three Ecumenical Detectives, but there's a character in there who sues to abolish the Gregorian Calendar, since it was promulgated by a sixteenth-century Pope for the avowed purpose of more correctly calculating the date of Easter. A religious motive - a violation of the First Amendment!

Here is the Papal decree establishing the Gregorian calendar in the Church - the U.S. and the vast majority of the world use that calendar today. The calculations on which the Gregorian calendar were based were done mainly by a Papal astronomer - a Jesuit, no less!

[Mad Max]

'Now there is a perfect reason not to believe in the humans occupying the Vatican.'

Nor in Ron Bailey, I suppose.

[Mad Max]

Yes, jester, I hope we shall meet again (twirls moustache), ha ha ha.

Seriously, have a nice day.

[BakedPenguin]

As for the Pope, you're all failing to answer the ultimate question: does he shit in the woods?

Only when he sees a bear.

[John Tagliaferro]

Not to plug my upcoming book, The Three Ecumenical Detectives, but there's a character in there who sues to abolish the Gregorian Calendar

Hey man, Suki and I are always plugging our book (no offense to your shyness Suki, but you ARE a major contributor). PL is constantly plugging his 'blog, others too. Just look at the handle links.

Your book sounds cool too! Have any wild sex in it?

[John Tagliaferro]

Nor in Ron Bailey, I suppose.

I suspect he would burst into flames.

[Silly rabbit,]

...flames are for trolls.

[nipplemancer]

i have a picture of my grandfather who was conscripted into the luftwaffe in 1943, he is in his uniform and wearing the nazi armband. everyone in my family has cropped that picture to hide our 'nazi past.' i'm more ashamed of my family's reaction than i am of his compulsory armband.
benedict grew up during the lowest point in german history, i doubt he's going to forget that.

[BakedPenguin]

Libertymike, you're full of shit. I know hate speech laws are you're hobby horse, but you need to wake up to some salient facts.
1) No one vaguely libertarian around here supports hate speech laws anyway. There are dozens of fucking pages of results if you search for "hate speech" on this site, and you won't find any support from any of the writers, including two Jewish writers, any very few of the commenters.
2) It's your fucking hobby horse. We don't agree with them, but they are down the list of shit to change for nearly all of us. Get over it.
3) Your provocateur act, if that's what it is, is wearing thin. You make borderline Holocaust denial statements yourself, and people obviously think you're a neo-Nazi. Here's a clue, if you haven't gotten it yet - there are very few supporters around here for a totalitarian government that started multiple wars and murdered millions of people. The fact that they weren't communist doesn't mean shit. The Holocaust and the Holodomor were nearly equivalent.
4) Whatever sins the government of Israel has committed do not mitigate #3. They are separate issues.

[johnl]

B16 is a theologian not a politician. Here is a bit on one of his pet projects to simplify RCC cosmology: http://www.adoremus.org/0507Limbo.html

[jester]

From Wiki, you stupid fuck, so read it:
Nicolaus Copernicus (19 February 1473 - 24 May 1543) was the first astronomer to formulate a comprehensive heliocentric cosmology, which displaced the Earth from the center of the universe.[1] His epochal book, De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), published in 1543 just before he died, is often regarded as the starting point of modern astronomy and the defining epiphany that began the Scientific Revolution. His heliocentric model, with the sun at the center of the universe, demonstrated that the observed motions of celestial objects can be explained without putting the Earth at rest in the center of the universe. His work stimulated further scientific investigations, becoming a landmark in the history of modern science that is now often referred to as the Copernican Revolution.

"Among the great polymaths of the Renaissance, Copernicus was a mathematician, astronomer, physician, classical scholar, translator, artist,[2] Catholic cleric, jurist, governor, military leader, diplomat and economist. Among his many responsibilities, astronomy figured as little more than an avocation - yet it was in that field that he made his mark upon the world."

This is a response to your Galileo bullshit.

[Tacos mmm...]

Holy shit. Did Moynihan actually acquit someone of anti-Semitism? That has to be a first.

[Seamus]

Enlighten me. I think of the Catholic Church as a dogmatic religion. Orders come from on High.

The Catholic Church *is* a dogmatic religion, but it doesn't proclaim dogmas about historic facts, other than those that are found in scripture. Therefore, it doesn't excommunicate people for being wrong about historic events.

Ergo, readmitting someone who went off the deep-end without repentence(Or did he repent??? Need to know this) is acceptance.

So in essence The Vatican is accepting these views.

In essence, these claims are what theologians refer to as bullshit.

[zoltan]

You mean the Church was right *too soon,* before all the evidence was in? Even if that were the case (which I don't admit), the same could be said of Galileo, who didn't have all his scientific ducks in a row when he propounded his heliocentrism. Yet we give Galileo a pass for being right.
Mad Max | May 12, 2009, 9:24pm | #

Of course, Einstein would scoff at the idea that the universe is either earth-centered *or* heliocentric.

No, I'm not saying the Church figured out anything "too soon". I'm saying you're making a ignorant comparison between a large, authoritarian anti-science group and one person who works in the field of science. The fact that the Church decided before one person in the scientific field doesn't make them some kind of avant-garde thinkers.

Of course, Galileo may not have "had all his ducks in a row". He practically created the scientific method, so it wasn't exactly pure accuracy in that regard. That doesn't mean house arrest and forcing him to change his beliefs is somehow good or smart retribution for that. Burning people at the stake whose science scares you and clinging to sad Ptolemy and the theory of spheres is a bit more ridiculous than believing something which turned out to be true (in a relative sense, when you throw Einstein into it).

[jester]

whatever you say. Seamus, it is your trip.

[jester]

And Seamus, you are a bigot. A fucking bigot. What your purposes here becomes a mystery.

[Michael B Sullivan]

I am a retired Catholic. I was an altar boy and later a lectern. I was exposed to many priests. Never, not once, did any priest get out of line with me. Nor did I ever hear of any such activity growing up in the 1970s and early 80s.

I am a current driver. I have been driving for 16 years. I have driven with tens if not hundreds of thousands of other driver. Never, not once, have I been in a fatal car accident. Nor have I ever personally witnessed a fatal car accident.

Clearly, fatal car accidents have never happened, or at least if any did, they are so rare as to not be essentially nonexistent.

[Michael B Sullivan]

Jesus, that's an excessive number of typos even for me:

"...thousands of other drivers."

"...they are so rare as to not be essentially nonexistent."

[Mad Max]

Gosh, jester, I've never heard of this Nicholas Copernicus guy before. Except about a thousand times.

'I don't underestimate you; instead, I understand you.'

No, I'm afraid not.

[Nemo]

Well, I got drunk, and this thread still doesn't make any sense.

[Clemens]

I think more worrying than his past is his relationship to the Vatican. Oh wait...

[Elemenope]

Well, I got drunk, and this thread still doesn't make any sense.

I'm stone sober (if a little sleep-deprived) and the cul-de-sacs and accusations flying around totally confused me. About all I gathered was that Galileo is not Copernicus, the Vatican still employs house astronomers, and the Southern Poverty Law Center is conspiring with Zionists and some human rights protesters to steal my brain.

[MNG]

Truly this thread was the Son of Bizarro.

[Pro Libertate]

Am I merely constantly plugging a blog? I was aiming for continuous promotion.

[Sean]

The Vatican is the best business in the world.

Can we please stop tax-exempt status for churches please?

They are nothing more than organized crime.

[Rice Bingham]

Wow. This is the gayest thread I've seen in a long time. The homoerotic tension is so thick you can scoop it up with a spoon and use to lube your ass.

[Mad Max]

Sean,

[citation needed]

[Seamus]

And Seamus, you are a bigot. A fucking bigot. What your purposes here becomes a mystery.

Wow. Guess you told me. In the face of such irrefutable logic, delivered with such wit and elan, there's nothing left for me to do except slink off with my tail between my legs.

Oh, wait, not.

[tmi]

tail between my legs

[Debra J.M. Smith]

It is so very inappropriate for a man, the Pope, who was once in Hitler's army to be over in Israel to begin with, much less telling them to be at peace with anyone. And considering the horrendously abusive history of the Roman Catholic Church, all the current day abuse included, he has some nerve going and trying to clean up Israel's back yard. I stand against the Catholic Church leaders and all that Catholicism stands for. I stand with Israel. ? Debra J.M. Smith of http://www.InformingChristians.com