Americans Banned From U.K. for Political Views

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Some truly disturbing news from Dear Old Blighty: Conservative shock jock Michael Savage, American Westboro Baptist jackfruit Fred Waldron Phelps, and 14 other offense-giving humans have been barred from entering the U.K. due to their political views:

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said she decided to make public the names of 16 people banned since October so others could better understand what sort of behaviour Britain was not prepared to tolerate. […]

"I think it's important that people understand the sorts of values and sorts of standards that we have here, the fact that it's a privilege to come and the sort of things that mean you won't be welcome in this country," Ms Smith told GMTV.

I don't much like the tone of your voice

"Coming to this country is a privilege. If you can't live by the rules that we live by, the standards and the values that we live by, we should exclude you from this country and, what's more, now we will make public those people that we have excluded. […]

"If people have so clearly overstepped the mark in terms of the way not just that they are talking but the sort of attitudes that they are expressing to the extent that we think that this is likely to cause or have the potential to cause violence or inter-community tension in this country, then actually I think the right thing is not to let them into the country in the first place. Not to open the stable door then try to close it later," Ms Smith said.

Whole outrage here; link via Drudge.

You know, I think Jacqui Smith (pictured) has convincingly demonstrated that she can't live by the free-speech rules we live by, and further, she definitely has the potential to cause "inter-community tension" between those of us who think/hope Michael Savage is a performance artist and those who don't. But unlike the governing ninnies of the non-First Amendendment West who so enthusiastically use the blunt edge of government to punish speech and policy with which they disagree, I will refrain from advocating that Smith be banned from the U.S.A. like a common mad cow.

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  1. Freedom is bad, Mmm’kay?

  2. Meh, Its thier counrty its none of my buisness i could care less what Britian thinks

  3. The UK is well on the way to being something other than a free society. See what happens when you start banning offensive speech? What constitutes “offensive” just keeps growing and growing. What about American journalists that are critical of the British government? What about British journalists that are critical of the British government? What about talk show hosts that say stupid things? Oh, right.

  4. It’s their country — we should worry more about our own.

    If you haven’t noticed, hateful thoughts are about to be a federal crime here.

  5. They think Brits are a bunch of commies anyway, don’t they?

  6. Does she think she’s taking some brave stance by refusing to admit Fred Phelps? Nobody likes Fred Phelps. The hep thing to do would be to say “Fred Phelps is a giant d-bag but we’ll let him in the country anyway because we’re not afraid on foreigners coming in here and making asses of themselves. After all, this sort of tolerance shows how accepting our society really is.

  7. I don’t listen to Savage. What exactly does he say that is offensive to the UK?

  8. Across the pond
    They’ve got Doc Who and Bond
    While our heroes like Batman are meaner.
    So it’s no surprise
    That the limeys despise
    Someone vicious as Savage- er, Weiner.

  9. Oh, I’m worried about us, too. The worst part is that our current government wants to emulate their European and British counterparts.

  10. Fuck, I’m missing a quotation mark. “. There it is.

  11. Tolerance is only a one way street it seems. It’s required that one be tolerant of X, but we will NOT be tolerant of Y. The British are way ahead of us on this one…but we’ll be catching up soon enough I suspect.

  12. I have never been more joyful that my ancestors left that Godforsaken no-dentist-having shitty little island. Fuck Britain, yo. OH NOES AM I BANNED FROM AIRSTRIP ONE NOW

  13. Savage is a douchebag. Any govt/country should be allowed to prevent foreign douchebags from visiting.

  14. From the Telegraph story:
    Artur Ryno and Pavel Skachevsky, the former leaders of a violent Russian skinhead gang which committed 20 racially motivated murders, are also banned from coming to Britain.

    Yes, it’s important that people understand UK values equate 20-time murderers with…Michael Savage. Thanks.

  15. Lemon curry?

  16. Britain is currently under the control of a stalinistic socialist autocracy, namely ‘Socialist Labour’. This is the sort of freedom of speech denying madness we used to see from the Soviety Bloc (whose principle ideologies had the same route source, e.g. Marx, Lenine, Trotsky etc as the current UK imcumbents). This sort of crazy behaviour should cease once a liberal or conservative government takes the mantle back from the commies.

  17. What’s so stupid about this is that it is actually counter productive to what they actually want. Savage is exactly the kind of guy you don’t want arguing for you on your side. He’s a loon and is probably responsible for more people embracing big state liberalism than any people he convinced to be more right wing (or whatever you want to categorize him). Giving the guy sympathy points is ridiculous.

  18. Matt,

    Need to be careful with your adjectives. Describing Phelps as “American Baptist” is an insult to all the members of both ABCUSA churches and ABA churches.

    I think you meant “American, Baptist”.

    Westboro is an independent church, not actually affiliated with any denomination.

  19. Meh, Its thier counrty its none of my buisness i could care less what Britian thinks

    Though it may pain some to acknowledge it, Great Britain (most just say England) is the mother country. Our freedoms and governmental structures are an extrapolation of British culture, legal traditions and common law. That’s why so many give a shit about what happens there.

  20. I mean, fuck Fred Phelps too, but especially fuck any country that thinks he’s a threat.

  21. J sub D,

    Is the mother country going to continue the tradition of beheading every odd numbered King Chuck? Because I could get behind that.

  22. This is the same worthless shit who advocated the giant database, isn’t it? Someone had a great line on one of the previous UK threads (and I think it was about a database that shit Smith wanted to install) –

    “Orwell was meant to be a warning, not a blueprint”

  23. It’s sobering how far England has fallen. Git in line for yer Victory Stew!

    Oh, and Michael Savage is a populist gasbag.

  24. I think Jacqui Smith (pictured) has convincingly demonstrated that she can’t live by the free-speech rules we live by

    Hey, that’s pretty good thinking there. Considering as how she’s British and doesn’t live by the free-speech rules we live by.

    It is well known that the UK has no equivalent of the First Amendment, and their speech-regulation regime tends to be much more stringent than the US’s in many respects. Theirs allows much more leeway for prior restraint of dangerous or obnoxious speech than does US law; our system allows for much more freedom (for, among other things, dangerous and obnoxious speech). You can have your opinion which system, with its particular pros and cons, is better, but you can hardly fault her for acting within the bounds of her own system, or for embracing the values it represents.

    And as for “those of us who think/hope Michael Savage is a performance artist”, you’d be more convincing if you ever spoke up in defense of the people his “performances” vilify and torment, rather than just conveniently reaping the political benefits of his rabble-rousing and then washing your hands of its content. He may be putting on a performance, but the right wing is buying the tickets.

  25. Westboro is an independent church, not actually affiliated with any denomination.

    I thought it was an offshoot of The Ecclesiastical Church of Making All Religious People Look Like Assholes. Or maybe they were both assumed into the Look At Me, I’m A Douchebag International Congregation of the Retarded Flame.

  26. It’s bad enough that the UK permits Arab and African parasites to immigrate and resettle there while banning visits from conservative commentators. Every country – except apparently the USA – has a right to decide who gets to come in and who doesn’t. But publishing this list of banned people is wrong. It just serves to intimidate others and silence them.

    The UK has lost its way. I pity the Whites stuck living there.

  27. SF,

    Neither the ECMARPLLA nor the LAMIADICRF would accept Westboro.

  28. The UK is a sovereign nation, so I respect the right of Brits to ban people from their country out of a security concerns. However, I think they are over reaching and being foolish here.

  29. The UK has lost its way. I pity the Whites stuck living there.

    Are you including the Irish in that?

  30. I guess it makes as much sense as the US banning Cat Stevens from entering the country during the Bush Admin.

  31. fuck Fred Phelps too

    To be fair, he is one hell of a swimmer.

    Oh, different Phelps? Well, then fuck him.

  32. “You can have your opinion which system, with its particular pros and cons, is better, but you can hardly fault her for acting within the bounds of her own system, or for embracing the values it represents.”

    YES WE CAN!

  33. I guess it makes as much sense as the US banning Cat Stevens from entering the country during the Bush Admin.

    Have you listened to “Lady D’Arbanville”?!? Bush did you a favor.

  34. ‘I thought it was an offshoot of The Ecclesiastical Church of Making All Religious People Look Like Assholes.’

    The way the Revolutionary Communist Party makes all atheists look like assholes?

  35. This is pretty horrifying.

    What’s next, ban Bjorn Lomborg for criticizing environmentalists?
    Ban Normon Borlaug for criticizing “organic” food?

    What if Savage just wants to go see Big Ben or something?
    It gets to the point that you wonder whether it’s a wise idea to start a blog because some Euro country is going to ban you for Something you post on there if you happen to hate Islamic fuckwads.

  36. Great Britian was destroyed by the two World Wars, it just took fifty years for it to become obvious. The two world wars took all of the young, risk taking, inititive driven, freedom loving men and put them into the meat grinder of the Somme and later Normandy, leaving Britian with the cowards and political hucksters who stayed behind. It is a bit like the people in Hitchhikers’ Guide to the Galaxy who gathered to gether the population into thinkers, doers and none of the above and sent the none of the above into space. Britian in the two world wars did the opposite and sent its thinkers and doers off to death leaving creatures like this woman behind. It makes me so sad.

  37. “The UK is a sovereign nation”

    Not according to the new and improved (and batshit crazy) Mr. Welch.

  38. Oh and rest assured some Iman who preaches every Friday that Jews, homosexuals and Christians are the spawn of pigs, will be welcomed into Britian and given a Kensington flat and a fat government subsidy.

  39. And the Gods punish me for trolling yesterday.

  40. but you can hardly fault her for acting within the bounds of her own system, or for embracing the values it represents.

    Why not?

  41. I heard some woman on NPR defending this steaming pile saying “well of course I believe in the value of free speech but” and I wanted to say, no, no, stop right now, you don’t get to say that, because actually, OF COURSE you do NOT believe in free speech.

  42. Hazel Meade finds it horrifying!

    But torture? Not so much.

    Face it folks, a lot of Americans post 9/11 are still afraid of the elastic in their underwear.

    Say what you will about jolly old England. But they endured a 9/11 every night for years. And somehow they managed to avoid slinking into the cowardice we now experience every day.

  43. Pro Lib-

    “Well on its way?” Its already there.

  44. Are you including the Irish in that?

    Yes. But not the Welsh.

  45. The US should retaliate with a “pompous ass tariff” and ban Simon Cowell from American Idol tonight.

  46. Davebo, what the fuck are you talking about?

  47. When these people say “but not protection for ‘dangerous” speech” it makes me want to scream. Are they not aware that pretty much every time in history speech has been censored the censor does it because they think its dangerous? The whole point of free speech is that in deciding what’s permissible or not the government is making the judgment of the ideas and speech in question for us, which is the same as telling us what’s right and wrong, and that speech alone doesn’t hurt anyone.

    People talk about European socialism. As you may suspect I’m not so alarmed by many of the aspects of Europe they are talking about like longer vacation and parental leave policies, but it’s this shit that I think is way out htere unacceptable.

  48. “But they endured a 9/11 every night for years. And somehow they managed to avoid slinking into the cowardice we now experience every day.”

    No they just fire bombed all of Germany. I somehow doubt you and your ilk would have been cheering on Britian during the war.

  49. Xeones, Davebo is referring to The Blitz, though how that has even the slightest relevance here is beyond me.

  50. Search this blogs archives Xeones, look for yourself.

  51. Hazel is for torture?

  52. “The US should retaliate with a “pompous ass tariff” and ban Simon Cowell from American Idol tonight.”

    If Obama refused entry to Simon Cowell on the basis of cultural pollution, I would vote for the SOB for that alone.

  53. Great Britain is free to deny entry to anyone they feel like. We are free to make fun of anyone we feel like. If you don’t like us making fun of something, you are free to go the fuck away.

    Isn’t freedom great?

  54. I got that he was talking about the Blitz, Epi. But that’s about as relevant to this conversation as what Britain was then is relevant to what Britain is now — which is to say, fuck all.

  55. Isn’t Britian America’s baby daddy?

  56. Pain-

    I am not a big fan of Dr. Savage. God knows he has openly advocated some horribly anti-individual freedom measures.

    However, to asert that he “is probably responsible for more people embracing big state liberalism than any people he convinced to be more right wing” is just goofy. What, pray tell, do rely upon in making such an assertion? The millions of people who listen to him each week?

  57. John,

    “They”? Who is this “they” you speak of?

    And the use of the word “ilk”? I don’t think it means what you think it means.

    My point is that Reason’s Hit and Run blog claims to be of a Libertarian “ilk” to use your inept term. Yet it’s been strangely silent for many years on a subject that a classical Libertarian would be extremely interested in.

    Kill a taxi driver? Meh…

    Refuse entrance of someone all agree is a true douche bag? OUTRAGE!

  58. They say they won’t let Madonna enter, which is surprising since Madonna has let many Brits enter her I imagine…

  59. Was there anyone, except the occasional troll and LGF drive-by, who was OK with torture? I remember a lot of “ticking bomb” arguments and a lot of objections about the efficacy of torture and degree of confidence you could have in information extracted under torture, but very little “Bush is so awesome, I hope tortures those ragheads good.”

  60. Isn’t freedom great?

    Frank: Look, I didn’t go to Vietnam just to have pansies like you take my freedom away from me.

    Dee: You went to Vietnam in 1993 to open up a sweatshop!

    Frank: And a lot of good men died in that sweatshop!

  61. Why is “Hang the rich!” okay, but “Kill the poor!” not?

    Oh, that’s right: Mob rule.

  62. Davebo
    Have you been in outer space for several years? Reason and the libertarians here have been pretty vocally opposing the torture policies for years…

  63. Epi,

    Where do you keep getting these things from? They are very funny!

  64. Kill a taxi driver? Meh…

    Oh, I need more of this, Davebo. Please continue making no sense.

  65. Was there anyone, except the occasional troll and LGF drive-by, who was OK with torture? I remember a lot of “ticking bomb” arguments and a lot of objections about the efficacy of torture and degree of confidence you could have in information extracted under torture, but very little “Bush is so awesome, I hope tortures those ragheads good.”

    No one, not even the trolls. Davebo is off his meds apparently. He doesn’t even qualify as a troll. Trolls may say crazy things but they at least make enough sense that you can respond to them. I honestly can’t figure out what the hell his point is.

  66. Epi
    The Dude: I don’t see any connection to Vietnam, Walter.
    Walter Sobchak: Well, there isn’t a literal connection, Dude.
    The Dude: Walter, face it, there isn’t any connection.

  67. Dello, that is from It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Highly recommended.

  68. Notice how the constitution does not specifically grant the federal government the authority to exclude entry into the country to any person.

    Any asshoile who argues that the grant of power “to establish an Unifrom Rule of Naturalization” means that the government can make the decision as to who enters and who does not is a big gvoernment freak who supports the deliberate distortion of the english language and the intent of the framers.

    If they had intended that Congress and executive branch administrative agencies get to make such decisions, they would have so said. They did not.

  69. Hazel is for torture?

    I’m anti prosecuting CIA officers that were assured by the justice department that what they were doing wasn’t torture.

  70. While I hold no truck for the Home Secretary what are the guidelines by which the United States will grant entry?

    Is this set by the State Department or the Department of Homeland Security?

    Those who advocate political violence would surely be excluded.

    Known drug traffickers?

    Adult-youth sex advocates?

    Is there some list kept by the border authorities for visitors from countires that do not require visa entry?

  71. What does her thought process look like?

    “What is the most effective way I can make these jerkoffs look like sympathetic martyrs?”

  72. Permitting a state to determine who can travel is CHAOS! Its disorder. Its utterly incompatible with civilization itself.

  73. Davebo sounds like a Lewrockwellian. They occasionally get a wild hair to come by and sling nonsense. They are so jealous about us being more popular and good-looking than they are it drives them crazy.

    It’s just another “no, we’re the REAL libertarians” shit splatter. Ultra-tedious.

  74. Jacqui Smith was a high school economics teacher (is there a less worthy career???) before becoming an MP. She only became an MP because of an illegal selection criteria forced on the local Labour electorate committee. They were forced to pick her as she was a woman:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqui_Smith

    Smith was selected to stand for election for Labour through an all-women shortlist.[11] This method of selection was subsequently declared illegal in January 1996 as it breached sex discrimination laws.[12] Despite the ruling she remained in place as the candidate for the following year’s election.

    She has a tiny minority and will probably be voted out in the next election. Until then she is trying to do as much damage as possible …

    It’s pretty horrifying that someone like her can be elevated to such a powerful position.

  75. MNG,

    Remember that old episode of Crossfire with Frank Zappa? Best ever.

  76. Hazel-

    Why cut a public employee slack? Why not throw the book at them? Now. Fifty years from now, no.

  77. Refuse entrance of someone all agree is a true douche bag? OUTRAGE!

    ALL don’t agree with anything. Apparently you hang with a less diverse crowd than most or you believe those kindergarten tactics work.

  78. Sugar Free-

    Does Reason have writers like James Bovard and Joeseph Dilorenzo? Lew does.

  79. libertymike should no better than to refer to Michael Weiner as “Dr. Savage.”

    There’s only one Doc Savage!

    Kevin

  80. Davbo @ 10:57

    Say what you will about jolly old England. But they endured a 9/11 every night for years. And somehow they managed to avoid slinking into the cowardice we now experience every day.

    You have never been to the UK then. The police regularly beat the shit out of prisoners in their cells or at least did in the 70s and 80s, but you probably don’t give a fuck because they were just US sailors and marines. I used to be on USN shore patrol at the USN base at Holy Loch, Scotland in the early 80s. As part of my duties I regularly pick-up marines and sailors in the morning after being arrested the night before at the Strathclyde Police Station in Dunoon. These marines and sailors were beaten in their cells by Strathclyde’s fucking finest. Tough men they were too, multiple cops beating as likely as not drunken sailors and marines in handcuffs in a cell. I also was in the station when I heard screams coming from the cell area when there were no Americans “in residence,” so I suppose the cops beat locals too. I hang my head in shame to this day for accepting this as just something foreigners do and not reporting it.

    Moreover, I will not discuss the details here, but my brit friends that served in the British Army in Ulster have many a story about the way the RUC treated their own people.

    Living in the UK for 15 years is one of the reasons I vote against the Democrats. The way the UK is, is the way the US would become if the Democrats got everything on their wish list.

  81. Meh. The only thing good about England anymore is the Premier League. And probably a couple of musicians.

  82. Freedom of speech and association are core principles of human liberty. Without those rights, every other liberty is also imperiled. It’s one of the reasons the UK and Europe are far more at risk of falling to more authoritarian regimes than the U.S. Not that we aren’t making a valiant effort to catch up.

    The UK has been a strong ally of the U.S., and I don’t have anything particularly bad to say about its people, except that maybe they should elect better representatives to their government. I hope things improve there before they get worse.

  83. “Living in the UK for 15 years is one of the reasons I vote against the Democrats. The way the UK is, is the way the US would become if the Democrats got everything on their wish list.”

    Don’t forget how they delt with the IRA. It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant American liberals are of how Europe actually works. Liberals are a bunch of ignorant hicks who know little and understand less about the world beyond their own cozy neighborhoods.

  84. So, is the administration going to protest this?

  85. Does this mean the US has to rethink its treaties with this new UK oppression? Or do we just have to listen to their reasons and sit by looking thoughtful?

  86. I also wonder when they will start banning the vitriolic assclowns in Congress, or the entire government for that matter.

  87. So, is the administration going to protest this?

    They’ll look like hypocrites if they do.

    From the fifties (and earlier) Red Scares to the current pantspissing over terrorism the US Government has barred plenty of people from entering the US on grounds very nearly as flimsy as these.

  88. This is a response to Muslim extremism. They threw the Americans in there as a smokescreen, I think. Look at all the Muslims who’ve been banned.

    It’s insane, obviously, the people banned and the banners both, but there is clearly more happening here than a pastor being punished for hating on the gays.

  89. “From the fifties (and earlier) Red Scares to the current pantspissing over terrorism the US Government has barred plenty of people from entering the US on grounds very nearly as flimsy as these.”

    We did deny entry to Cat Steavens. But I always though that was for artistic reasons. Didn’t we also deny entry to Odetta and the Bay City Rollers?

  90. Great Britian was destroyed by the two World Wars, it just took fifty years for it to become obvious. The two world wars took all of the young, risk taking, inititive driven, freedom loving men and put them into the meat grinder of the Somme and later Normandy, leaving Britian with the cowards and political hucksters who stayed behind. It is a bit like the people in Hitchhikers’ Guide to the Galaxy who gathered to gether the population into thinkers, doers and none of the above and sent the none of the above into space. Britian in the two world wars did the opposite and sent its thinkers and doers off to death leaving creatures like this woman behind. It makes me so sad.

    Similarly, those two world wars exercised a reverse-Darwinian culling of the thinkers and doers in Germany. As did the first world war in France. (Largely because of that experience, the French lay down and played dead in WW2.) And Russia got the triple whammy of two world wars, Bolshevism, and the Great Terror to cull out its best thinkers and doers. As a result, Europe is now an empty shell of what it was when it created Western civilization.

  91. my brit friends that served in the British Army in Ulster have many a story about the way the RUC treated their own people.

    By “their people,” do you mean Ulstermen or Irish? Because I don’t think the RUC would have regarded the non-Orange Irish as “their people” by any stretch of the imagination.

  92. There is no freedom of speech anywhere in Europe. At all. Feel free to correct me, anyone. But my information is that Europe (including GB) has ‘implied’ freedom of speech. Ie, there’s no explicitly written freedom of speech. And don’t quote the UN Charter. Most European countries and Australia (to add a non-european country) haven’t fully adopted the UN Free speech tidbits:

    The Australian Constitution does not have any express provision relating to freedom of speech. In theory, therefore, the Commonwealth Parliament may restrict or censor speech through censorship legislation or other laws, as long as they are otherwise within constitutional power. The Constitution consists mainly of provisions relating to the structure of the Commonwealth Parliament, executive government and the federal judicial system.(6) There is no list of personal rights or freedoms which may be enforced in the courts. There are however some provisions relating to personal rights such as the right to trial by jury (section 80), and the right to freedom of religion (section 116).

  93. Does Reason have writers like James Bovard and Joeseph Dilorenzo? Lew does.

    So not the point, libertymike. My problem is not with Lew Rockwell, it’s with their partisans coming over to this board to troll and spout nonsense. As I would condemn a Reasonite on the Lew Rockwell site who was just there to grief their board.

  94. I am not a big fan of Dr. Savage. God knows he has openly advocated some horribly anti-individual freedom measures.

    However, to asert that he “is probably responsible for more people embracing big state liberalism than any people he convinced to be more right wing” is just goofy. What, pray tell, do rely upon in making such an assertion? The millions of people who listen to him each week?

    lm-

    To clarify, Savage is the kind of guy most people are uncomfortable agreeing with right or wrong. It’s the same tactic LBJ used against Goldwater. He made a commercial of the KKK endorsing Goldwater. The implications being obvious. No one wants to vote along side the KKK for whatever reason.

    I would imagine Savage’s listeners already agree with him. But his antics probably push more people away because they perceive that to agree with any of his points is to implictly agree with all of them.

  95. Let me bring you up to speed on current events Episiarch.

    You can start here for the basics.

    Then you can review Hit and Run’s extensive coverage of this irrelevant to Libertarians story here.

  96. Oops, first linky no worky.

    Trying again

  97. I think that the official US position on this should be “Really, Britain? You’re going to feed the trolls?”

    That the Urkobold wasn’t on this list is an insult to the Urkobold.

  98. From the Danish Constitution:

    http://www.folketinget.dk/pdf/constitution.pdf

    ? 77 Any person shall be at liberty to publish his ideas in print, in writing, and in speech, subject to his being held responsible in a court of law. Censorship and other preventive measures shall never again be introduced.

  99. IT’S NOT AN INSULT. THE URKOBOLD WAS BANNED LONG AGO FROM ENGLAND BY ROYAL EDICT. KING WILLIAM I ISSUED THE BAN AFTER THE URKOBOLD STARTED CALLING HIM “WILLIAM THE BASTARD”, BECAUSE THE BASTARD PISSED OFF THE URKOBOLD BY ORDERING HIS MEALS IN FRENCH AT THE URKOBOLD’S HAGGIS RESTAURANT IN LONDON.

  100. It appears Denmark may be the only country that contains an unrestricted form of speech, despite opposition to such measures from the left. Apparently the right in Denmark believe in a fully unfettered free speech.

    Interesting, our definitions of left and right, these days.

  101. They also have this pretty cool section:

    ?80 In the event of riots the armed forces may not take action, unless attacked, until after the crowd has three times been called upon to disperse in the name of the King and the law and such warning has gone unheeded.

  102. Don’t forget how they delt with the IRA.

    I’m not familiar with all the details, but back in the 70s (IIRC), they rounded up hundreds (maybe thousands) of N. Irish and held them in indefinite detention without trial on suspicion of being IRA members. Or protestant militia members, but I think it it tended to be more lopsided towards the catholic side.

  103. Moreover, I will not discuss the details here, but my brit friends that served in the British Army in Ulster have many a story about the way the RUC treated their own people.

    You might like ‘Bloody Sunday’ (2002), a documentary about the 1973 massacre.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280491/

  104. In case you missed last weeks episode:

    Live from Airstrip One! Your Social Democratic future, already in progress.

  105. SF-

    Okay, understood. Hey, do you check their boards? Any chance Joe might be there to serve the same function as he did here?

  106. Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

    Help,help! I’m being repressed!

  107. Pain-

    Yes, I understand your point. I do not doubt that there are great numbers who are turned off by Savage’s schtick. I am one of them.

    OTOH, he is, like Rush, a very good entertainer.

    As to the point about not wanting to be associated, at all, even on one point, for fear of being branded as thinking identically to Savage, IMO, it is overstated. Look, MNG and I pretty much see eye to eye on Moynihan’s double standard when it comes to both Chavez and Israel, but I do not fear that everybody is going to conflate the two of us as being ideological twinsies.

  108. When I read this, I thought Michael Savage was going there for some conference and his visa application was rejected.

    Oddly, that is not the case. He had no intention of travelling there. They just came up with some list of who they don’t like, and he was on it.

  109. OTOH, he is, like Rush, a very good entertainer.

    I disagree. Rush is a far better personality and has real mainstream entertainer chops.

    Savage just comes off as in-your-face. Combine it with his political views and he’s unlistenable.

  110. So when is the British government going to be banned from the UK?

    After all, when I read this crap it makes me want to commit all sorts of violence against their stupid skulls.

  111. Did any of the people on that list actually apply for a visa to visit the UK, or is Smith just dick-waving here?

    -jcr

  112. libertymike,

    Any chance Joe might be there to serve the same function as he did here?

    He actually posts as “Joe from Lowell” on Unqualified Offerings and Matt Yglesias.

  113. Jacqui Smith – you are an ignorant, cowardly bitch.

    Churchill is rolling in his grave – he thought that Britian was on the side that defeated facism – looks like they’re on the vanguard to imposing it on themselves.

  114. I don’t support this action, but I have two questions:

    1. Doesn’t the US government routinely refuse to approve entry visas for foreign nationals based on their prior political advocacy?

    2. Has Michael Savage himself ever abdicated refusing entry to speakers, officials of foreign governments, visiting professors, etc. into the United States?

  115. Fluffy,

    I wonder if we’ve denied entry to someone solely based on their stated views, rather than due to their overt actions or advocacy of violence? Strictly speaking, even the latter may not always be constitutional, but it’s not quite as egregiously out of whack as what the UK appears to be doing.

    As for Savage, I think that’s irrelevant. He can be called a hypocrite if he complains about his treatment if he’s advocated the same for others, but it’s still every bit as wrong for the UK government to treat him the way it is.

  116. Did any of the people on that list actually apply for a visa to visit the UK, or is Smith just dick-waving here?

    The UK is one of the countries in the Visa Waiver Program.

    Citizens of either country can visit the other for up to ninety days without a viza.

    Presumably if any of the people on the banned list showed up in the UK they would be sent home – something that can be done to anyone found to be ineligible for the program for any number of other reasons. The airline that brought them is required to take them back on the next available flight.

    The fact that their names are now public makes it so that none of them needs to waste his time going there to find this out.

  117. Pro Libertate –

    Savage advocates violence. He notoriously called for the extermination of 100 million Muslims so the remaining 900 million would know we meant business.

    http://mediamatters.org/clips/200604190001

    Please note, I still don’t think he should be denied entry into the UK. I just am noting that the US bans people from entry all the time.

    And you don’t have to advocate violence to get banned:

    http://www.aaup.org/AAUP/pubsres/academe/2007/SO/NB/excluded.htm

  118. Paul-

    I agree that Rush is the better entertainer. That said, what about Savage’s meatball recipes?

  119. Well, we shouldn’t do it, either.

  120. Don’t forget that Jaqui Smith is a fraud who, though admitting to smoking pot in her youth, increased the penalties for marijuana, and has had taxpayers pay for her husband’s porno.

  121. Today it’s Savage, but some day the staff of Reason could be banned in the UK too. You know…the radicalism of independent thought and not talking the talk just because everyone else is.

  122. Jaqui Smith ?!!!!

    %%”#ing$&”%&”bitc%&!#communist$%&!#$!”#$%”#$
    !%$%$pinko%#slag$%!”#%whor$%#!$&!&!$
    $%!#$%ing!#$%!#$%!ID cards#”%/&$/$%/42 day deten”$#$!&$slag”%”#$%!”#$ho
    !”%$%//&)ing//#$%!%#$$#$|”#|

  123. First they came for the people who advocated the Final Solution for the Jewish problem…

  124. “People talk about European socialism. As you may suspect I’m not so alarmed by many of the aspects of Europe they are talking about like longer vacation and parental leave policies, but it’s this shit that I think is way out htere unacceptable.”

    As usual, MNG, you fail to comprehend the inherent irony of your statement: The Nanny State (which you clearly advocate) and the Police State are the exact same thing.

  125. I think this is ridiculous action on the part of the British Authorities. However, I cannot help but feel that everyone here taking exception to this action felt the same about the case of Taiq Ramandan.

  126. “You can have your opinion which system, with its particular pros and cons, is better, but you can hardly fault her for acting within the bounds of her own system, or for embracing the values it represents.”

    You can fault her for embracing the values of her country’s system, if those values suck.

  127. Wonder if Alex Jones made the list.

  128. advocate, not abdicate

  129. C’mon, Matt, you know you right-wing twits love any sign that free speach is threatened. It makes you feel important. But more and more these days, nobody gives a flying fuck what you think or say. You’re so yesterday, asshole.

  130. And Morris “Lefiti” Edward shows a complete lack of self-awareness. You see, your presence is completely unwanted here, but do you see how your random and ill-informed spouting-off nevertheless doesn’t cause us all to collapse?

  131. nobody gives a flying fuck what you think or say.

    And this, my American friends, is unintentional irony.

  132. Before you go off whining about the UK banning a few Yanks just take a look at the number of UK people banned from going to the US!!!
    Free speech? Land of the Free? Don’t make me laugh!

  133. I clearly remember Reason doing at least one article on the US’s similar practice. Try again, n00b.

  134. Savage is a right wing hating christian values prick who’s broadcasts are very biased. Still this is america where we’re supposed to protect the rights of all CITIZENS to say what they want, even if they are ignorant shitheels:)

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