Ivan Meets Pitchfork Pat
Soon after federal agents removed 89-year-old John Demjanjuk from his home in Cleveland, the conservative columnist Pat Buchanan got to work on yet another column detailing "The ordeal of this American Dreyfus." It's an old line, recycled from a 1993 Buchanan column triumphantly describing an Israeli court's decision to overturn a death sentence against the Ukraine-born Demjanjuk, who stood accused of complicity in the murder of 850,000 Jews. In 1986 Demjanjuk was convicted of crimes against humanity for his supposed role as a guard at the Treblinka extermination camp, where, his accusers claimed, he gleefully executed and tortured prisoners, earning him the sobriquet Ivan Grozny—Ivan the Terrible. But evidence soon materialized (some of it long withheld by American prosecutors) suggesting that Israel had the wrong man. Or, as it later turned out, the right man on the wrong charge.
An identity card provided to American investigators by the Soviet Union (listing Demjanjuk's identification number as 1393) placed Demjanjuk at an SS training facility in Trawniki, Poland, with stints at concentration camps in Sobibor, Poland, where approximately 250,000 Jews were liquidated, and Flossenburg, Germany. According to Buchanan, the card is a crude KGB forgery. But in the German Federal Archives in Koblenz, American investigators later found a series of documents disproving the "KGB frame up" theory and confirming that, while not a guard a Treblinka, Demjanjuk was indeed stationed at Sobibor and Flossenburg. The ID number on both Russian and German documents—1393—matched, though how the Soviets could have managed such an elaborate conspiracy isn't explained by Buchanan. (The Soviets also provided the Israeli Supreme Court with written statements from 61 statements former guards at Treblinka identifying "Ivan the Terrible" as a Ukrainian named Ivan Marchenko. There was, apparently, also KGB conspiracy afoot to vindicate Demjanjuk of the Treblinka charge.)
And there was plenty of other circumstantial evidence for which Demjanjuk couldn't account—and is simply ignored by Buchanan. For instance, on his entrance form to the United States, Demjanjuk claimed to have lived in Sobibor from 1937 to 1943. As the historian Gitta Sereny notes in her book The German Trauma—and as the judges and prosecutors also observed during his first trial—Sobibor was "little more than a railway halt in the forest [that] hardly appeared on pre-war Polish maps." It was, prosecutors observed, peculiar that Demjanjuk listed the unknown railway junction as his place of residence. When asked how he decided upon the town, Demjanjuk's said he picked it from a nearby map. He later testified that it was provided by a helpful bystander.
But Buchanan never mentions Demjanjuk's ever-shifting and farfetched time line of his wartime activities; a loose tissue of overlapping alibis an American judge called "so incredible as to legitimately raise the suspicions of his prosecutors that he lied about everything."
And while Buchanan chooses to ignore these contradictions and implausibilities, he instead relies upon dubious evidence provided by dubious sources. In 1990, when interviewed by Jacob Weisberg for The New Republic, Buchanan "declined…to name the source of the information" he used in his Demjanjuk columns. Weisberg speculated that it was "sent to him by pro-Nazi and anti-Semitic cranks," though he provided no specifics. In 1993, though, the Holocaust denier and Demjanjuk supporter Jerome Brentar, writing in the movement's house journal, the academic-sounding Journal of Historical Review, claimed it was his material that Buchanan had used in his columns:
One day I got a call from a Mr. Matt Balic of New Jersey. Like me, he is of Croatian background. He told me that he he'd like to introduce me to Pat Buchanan. Balic told me that I have an important story to tell, and asked if I'd like to appear [on the television program] "Crossfire." "Sure," I replied. So that's how I came to appear on "Crossfire." I got to know Buchanan very well, and from that time on I sent him much information that he used in writing articles in defense ofDemjanjuk.
A Holocaust denier like Brentar was trusted to provide accurate information about the case, though Buchanan cites witness testimony provided by Holocaust survivors as unreliable—they often, he once wrote, display "group fantasies of martyrdom and heroics." There is, it should be said, something to the charge that survivor memory is often not a reliable source for prosecutors, as was demonstrated in the first trial, when witnesses gave wildly conflicting accounts of having seen Demjanjuk in Treblinka. But Buchanan is quick to cite survivor testimony when it buttresses his brief for the defendant. The few survivors of Sobibor located by investigators, Buchanan exclaims, couldn't identify Demjanjuk as a camp guard. (Had they, fifty years hence, managed to do so he would have doubtless scoffed at their "group fantasies.") According to Buchanan, "not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone." Only a handful of those delivered into the hands of the sadists at Sobibor survived the war.
So why retry Demjanjuk? Buchanan offers a theory: "He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany's sins." No guilty Germans were available, he writes, "Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969 (sic). So now they must find a Slav soldier" to extirpate the remaining guilt. This is a revealing sentence; one that demonstrates Buchanan's tenuous handle on the facts. As anyone who has followed postwar prosecutions of German war criminals should know, Germany never "voted an amnesty for themselves" on the issue of war crimes. Presumably Buchanan is referring to a 1968 modification of Article 50 of the German penal code which made the prosecution of Nazi war criminals more difficult, though it is much debated if the modification was introduced for this purpose (there is no mention of war crimes or National Socialism in the modified law).
What the revised article did, whether intentional or not, was provide shorter sentences for those involved in "lesser" war crimes and force prosecutors to prove that perpetrators acted out of a "base motivation" (i.e. anti-Semitism). This applied to the so-called schreibtischmörder (desk killers) and their accomplices, not those like former Wehrmacht officer Josef Scheungraber, a German currently being prosecuted in Munich for war crimes. Buchanan, the expert in the minutia of German law, might wish to inform Scheungraber that he is covered by an "amnesty" ruling of which his lawyers are unfamiliar.
One can reasonably debate the judiciousness of retrying a frail 89-year-old man previously acquitted by an Israeli court (though, again, it is worth pointing out that this hardly counts as double jeopardy, as the new charges are for a different crime). Indeed, as Gitta Sereny wrote in her brilliant summation of the first trial, the Israelis "finally agreed [to prosecute Demjanjuk], subject to three conditions: the accused had to be healthy and reasonably young, indictable for murder, and credible witnesses had to be available." There is much to be said for this position. But one cannot present a man who served in the SS and can be credibly placed at the Sobibor death camp as "America's Dreyfus."
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Eh. Buchanen may be wrong to call him an "American Dreyfus", but that doesn't make it right to try him on a second set of charges like this.
IMO, they seem tainted by prejudice. They had built up a narrative around the guy, and now feel compelled to make something stick. It also seems unlikely that they could prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt", unless evidentiary standards are relaxed. But if they are relaxing evidentiary standards in this case, why not for Islamic radicals currently held in Guantanamo?
Moreover, at his age, it seems vaguely sadistic to be (basically) torturing him by dragging him off to court in his wheelchair and all. Couldn't that be considered cruel and unusual punishment?
I'm having trouble seeing how this relentless hounding of anyone anywhere who might have been a guard at a concentration camp jibes with a libertarian perspective. The law has always erred on the side of the defendent, I thought. Better to let the guilty go free than punish the innocent. Why does that change in the context of the holocaust?
Hazel,
The fact thathe is getting a trial and that he is innocent until proven guilty is the part that jibes with libertarianism.
I agree with Hazel Meade on this one. Yeah, Buchanan and Brentar come across as d-bags, but the reality is just that after 65 years it gets pretty difficult to say what this guy did or didn't do. I say leave him be, and I say that to the Feds, to Buchanan and Brentar and pretty much anybody except whatever friends and family Demjanjuk has.
The fact thathe is getting a trial and that he is innocent until proven guilty is the part that jibes with libertarianism.
It's the second trial. He was found not guilty in an Israeli court before. Moynihan says it isn't double jeopardy because the charges are different, but I don't agree. IMO, the new charges are irreparably tainted. Is it going to be considered permissible to keep coming up with "different" charges to file on someone until you get a conviction? I really don't think this is what the law intends.
Besides, how is this guy comparable to Dreyfus? Has he acted, like, at all? :p
The Israelis trying anyone for anything after what just happened in Gaza is a joke.
Not only does this make no sense but you should probably RTFA.
This is one reason we try cases in courts instead of via referendums. Pat Buchanan is just cherry picking his evidence to fit his world view. This is common in the court of public opinion. Forunately, judges and juries tend to focus more on the facts of the case on hand and rarely have a personal interest in the case.
I'm having trouble seeing how this relentless hounding of anyone anywhere who might have been a guard at a concentration camp jibes with a libertarian perspective.
Israelis are angry about the Holocaust so they hound this person who probably did part of it.
Defense contractors love Israel because Israel is a big client and lobbies in ways that makes business opportunities for them.
Defense contractors are large companies.
Libertarians love large companies because they are all secretly: (i) not really libertarians; but, rather, (ii) corporatarians.
Hence, this blog entry instead of one about our Black President should cut (and I do mean cut) our proud military. I say bring back Justin Raimondo.
Bwah ha ha ha!!!!
Fail.
Buchanan makes me ashamed to be Irish. If the universe was a just place, the ghosts of Holocaust victims would haunt him into madness and suicide. That he has any voice on a national stage degrades us as a country and a people.
At the very least, this Demjanjuk piece of shit lied on his entrance form and is in this country by fraud. Deport his Nazi ass and let some other country have him. America already has enough assholes who make excuses for millions of murdered Jews, we should be under no compulsion to import them.
Or, as it later turned out, the right man on the wrong charge.
He must be guilty of something!
His papers are not in order.
moynihan used to be named "moscowitz." crypto jew. deport him back to israel.
Libertarians Liberals love large governments because they are all secretly: (i) not really libertarians liberals; but, rather, (ii) corporatarians communists.
Anyone can play, and it still means exactly shit.
Been featured in Your Band Sucks yet?
Been featured in Your Band Sucks yet?
Yeah. That's why I switched to emcee'ing:
http://blip.tv/file/1982611
I think Buchanan's beef is the idea of having US citizens tried in foriegn courts. After all, he was very strongly opposed to the International Criminal Court. There's something a lil' stinky about us handing over one of our own citizens to be tried in a foriegn court. I don't know about you guys, but that's not what I envision is owed to me when I pay my taxes to and participate in our government...
Nooge
Did you hear about what the Vermont legislature did recently? Your love affair with Moynihan can now result a legitimate marriage as its possible end point. I'm so glad for you!
Hi SugarFree!
I had no idea that you were Irish! Good thing I convinced my friend to abstain from Irish bashing. He is part English, I think.
Dave W.,
Do you truly believe those things?
Buchanan offers a theory: "He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany's sins."
Isn't just like the Jews to find some innocent person to die for the sins of humanity? I mean, they did it first in the Gospel of Matthew, then again in Mark, Luke, and John.
Do you truly believe those things?
Well, the part about bringing back Raimondo was a j/k. I don't think he ever blogged here. The closest they had was Julian "the Sanch" Sanchez, but he got booted for not being corporatarian enuf. Still, they did quote and link him a week or two ago, but that is cold comfort when you have to read a Michael Moynihan entry.
A true and pure libertarian government has but five legit functions:
1. implementing contract law
2. implementing tort law
3. decidng which inventions are patent-worthy
4. stopping foreign invasions when they are attempted
and
5. busting trusts
The sooner HitnRunners wise up to these political facts about true libertarianism, the better.
what's the "w" for, dave? weinberg?
Dave W,
You are an odd sort.
"W"uv. Cuzums I wuv'es all y'all.
Dave W
Wouldn't you include implementing property law?
Sugar - you mean it took that for you to be ashamed?
what about all those assholes on whatever-the-fuck day in March is, where they all run around talking in those goddamned fake accents?
since that's a recurring feature, wouldn't the cumulative effect of that be the "cake taking" element?
or the fact that Mr. Steven Crane dresses up like that little green character?
Property only exists because of contract and tort law. Otherwie there would only be possessions.
MNG
Yes, it is great news! Previously my dreams for me and MM were limited to my usual sureptitious meetings in the bathrooms and port-o-potties of public places (of course my job as a port-o-potty cleaner dovetails nicely with this), but now they are much more grand. Thanks for the well wishes, now if only I can get MM to return my calls...Mike, it's me, look, I'm defending you slavishly to prove my love, I don't understand why you can't call back...
Whats a quiet title claim?
an expedient for facilitating real-estate contracts and for preventing trespassing suits in tort. Like a lot of property law it has both a contract aspect and a tort aspect. Of course, not all contract law and tort law is about property, which is why I listed the five legit functions the way I did.
MNG - a lawsuit one brings to "quiet" any claims that the title is defective. For example, if I convey land via a quitclaim deed, but I don't state "this is worthy title" or some such Magical Words*, then others are going to try to claim that your title is bad. You would file a quiet title claim to get a court to lift the "clouds" the hover over the title.
And no, Dave W. doesn't (surprise!) know what he's talking about. Contract and Tort Law center around "who owns what". You cannot have trespass to land without defining who owns the land. He's got it in reverse.
* - yes, Magical Words exist in property law.
First,
This is not an issue of an american citizen being tried by a foreign court. The U.S. government does not grant citizenship to former death camp guards. The only reason this guy got citizenship is because he lied. That fraud voids his U.S. citizenship.
I can't believe some of the statements on this thread. How in the hell can anyone wonder why people are still hunting down former death camp guards? These people helped to murder 13 million people. They stuck people in ovens. If fucking Richard Speck were found living in Poland, would you dumb asses be angry that the government is picking on some peacful old guy?
That is the kind of crapweasel bullshit that gives libertarians a bad name. The nazis were a crime against all humanity. Jew or non Jew every human being should want to see anyone connected with them, no matter how old brought to justice.
TAO
Thanks, but I knew what it was, I was asking Dave W where he would put such an action in a land of no property law.
I would also like to ask him where he sees intestate succession in his scheme...
"The only reason this guy got citizenship is because he lied. That fraud voids his U.S. citizenship."
Uhh, shouldn't he get a day in an AMERICAN court to prove that he indeed did work this fraud?
MNG,
I beleive he did and the US stripped him of his citizenship back when they sent him to Israel.
It's Friday so it must be "Prove we're not Anti-Semitic" Day for Reason in Cosmoland.
John, right on.
I'm surprised some Holocaust survivor, or child of same, diagnosed with a terminal disease, hasn't come up to Demjanuk and terminated his ass ala Oswald.
I must confess that I don't really see the point of trying this guy again. He'll be dead pretty soon anyway.
"It's Friday so it must be "Prove we're not Anti-Semitic" Day for Reason in Cosmoland."
Because anyone appalled my Nazis must be a Cosmotarian.
The US prosecutors in this case should be in jail for attempted murder. They knowingly deported a US Citizen to face a death charge that they knew for a fact he didn't commit. Now they have the audacity to come after the guy again?
Then again, we elect prosecutors in hopes that the public will use their judgment about proportionality in prosecution to pick people who don't go crazy.
It doesn't work, of course, but that's the idea.
Buchanan's idea (and he expresses it badly) is to apply a single standard of justice to Nazis and other heinous war criminals, rather than using the justice system as a common tool in one's crusade against "evil". That shit ends badly. Every time.
"The US prosecutors in this case should be in jail for attempted murder. They knowingly deported a US Citizen to face a death charge that they knew for a fact he didn't commit. Now they have the audacity to come after the guy again?"
Did you even read the post? There is ample evidence the guy is guilty. Further, Isreal tried him and gave him a fair trial. He was aquitted for God's sake. But, just because you are aquitted doesn't mean you are factually innocent. It just means the prosecutor couldn't make the case. Perhaps the Germans will have better evidence. We will find out.
The Pat Buchanan the Nazi's weren't such bad guys paleotarian swamp is really a disgracful bunch.
"Buchanan's idea (and he expresses it badly) is to apply a single standard of justice to Nazis and other heinous war criminals, rather than using the justice system as a common tool in one's crusade against "evil". That shit ends badly. Every time."
Isn't the ICC one standard? I don't understand what Buchanan's idea of justice is other than there never seems to be, in his eyes at least, any former Nazi who is getting a fair shake.
I am all for killing a nazi. However, I am a little mroe worried about the ones running our government now.
Gabe,
Stop Godwinning the thread!
Demjanjuk should be sent back to Ukraine, now that he's lost his U.S. citizenship. If the Ukrainians want to send him to Germany, that would be fine.
To Dear John.....quote:
April 17, 2009, 9:08am | #
"First,
This is not an issue of an american citizen being tried by a foreign court. The U.S. government does not grant citizenship to former death camp guards. The only reason this guy got citizenship is because he lied. That fraud voids his U.S. citizenship.
I can't believe some of the statements on this thread. How in the hell can anyone wonder why people are still hunting down former death camp guards? These people helped to murder 13 million people. They stuck people in ovens. If fucking Richard Speck were found living in Poland, would you dumb asses be angry that the government is picking on some peacful old guy?
That is the kind of crapweasel bullshit that gives libertarians a bad name. The nazis were a crime against all humanity. Jew or non Jew every human being should want to see anyone connected with them, no matter how old brought to justice......"
So let me get it straight with you John....you want this guy to hang whether there's reasonable doubt or not. So it's a case of an eye for an eye with you, even if there is some doubt...correct? Better to hang someone and clear everyone's collective conscious, right John?? It's no wonder that the prisons have so many people wasting away for crimes they never did...... By the way, should we go after the Stalin era Russians that starved millions of Ukrainians in 1932 and 33? Or is your brand of due process selective for only the politically correct causes?
"By the way, should we go after the Stalin era Russians that starved millions of Ukrainians in 1932 and 33? Or is your brand of due process selective for only the politically correct causes?"
If the Russians showed up and wanted some asshole who participated in the Stalinist terror, I have no problems with giving him over. The fact that the perpetraitors of communist mass murder went largely unpunished is one of the great injustices of the last 100 years.
As far as reasonable doubt, the guy is going to be tried in Germany. It is not like we are turning him over to the Chinese. Germany is a wesern democratic country and I have no doubt he will get a fair trial. The Israelis gave him one, why won't the Germans. I am not saying we should just shoot the guy. I am saying we should turn him over to Germany and let him face whatever justice they deem appropriate.
What I want to know is what are all these Nazi hunters going to do for a hobby once all of these old men have died off? I mean they must be in a panic. Pickings are getting slim. Most of these guys are in their late 80's and 90's now. Are they going to go after their children or their inheritance? After all, a lot of money has been made over the last 60 years. All in the name of justice? Yea...right!
And while Buchanan chooses to ignore these contradictions and implausibilities, he instead relies upon dubious evidence provided by dubious sources.
Couldn't you just recycle that into any post about Buchanan?
Dave W:
Dunno where you got the idea that enforcing anti-trust law is a core function of the night watchman state.
an expedient for facilitating real-estate contracts and for preventing trespassing suits in tort. Like a lot of property law it has both a contract aspect and a tort aspect.
Property law is about quite a bit more than that. It defines what property rights actually are, and provides a mechanism independent of contract law for determining who actually has those rights.
"What I want to know is what are all these Nazi hunters going to do for a hobby once all of these old men have died off? I mean they must be in a panic. Pickings are getting slim. Most of these guys are in their late 80's and 90's now. Are they going to go after their children or their inheritance? After all, a lot of money has been made over the last 60 years. All in the name of justice? Yea...right!"
Fuck you Carl. Is the rule now that if you participate in the murder of millions that is okay and you can never be brought to justice as long as you keep your head down long enough? I don't know about you, but I think murdering 13 million people and starting the worst war in human history is worthy of hunting down the people involved until every one of them is dead.
John | April 17, 2009, 9:23am | #
MNG,
I beleive he did and the US stripped him of his citizenship back when they sent him to Israel.
John,
Are you not bothered by the fact that he was stripped of his citizenship for a matter that turned out to be a case of mistaken identity, and for which he was acquited? What does this say about our system? When the person proves to be embarrassing to us, and the powers that be, we bend like a reed to accommodate?
Before we turn him over, and I have no problem with that as he is likely guilty in the later case, this very serious matter needs to be addressed and corrected. It could come back to bite us as it sets a precedent. Do you want our intelligence personnel, recruited from foreign ranks, to live under this same loose standard?
I haven't followed this very closely, but I did read up a little on it when Demjanjuk returned to the news. He's an admitted Nazi (he confessed to removing an S.S. tattoo, I believe), but he's also not Ivan the Terrible. The prosecutorial misconduct around the last trial was pretty bad, and all of those eyewitnesses were apparently wrong.
I don't doubt that this guy is guilty of something; otherwise, he'd have a better narrative in his defense. Still, the Germans don't appear to have sufficient untainted evidence to convict the guy.
We all suffer when the government abuses its powers and the legal process. People in general, the accused, and the victims who crave justice. Even if the guy gets convicted of something, there will also be a question about his guilt. The whole process is hopelessly tainted.
Incidentally, I don't have a problem with prosecuting someone this late in the day. No one should get away with committing the kinds of atrocities committed by the Nazis. Unfortunately, proving guilt this many decades later is really hard.
"Are you not bothered by the fact that he was stripped of his citizenship for a matter that turned out to be a case of mistaken identity, and for which he was acquited? What does this say about our system? When the person proves to be embarrassing to us, and the powers that be, we bend like a reed to accommodate?"
We are not just shooting the guy. If we were turning him over to China where he had no chance of a fair trial, I would have no problem with it. But we are not. We are turning him over to Germany, a country that I think we ought to give the benefit of the doubt to and let try him.
Lying on his original visa application is sufficient grouds for revoking his citizenship, and his right to be in the US for that matter. The fact that he obtained resident alien status under false pretenses is not in dispute.
And what he lied about was being in the SS. Having been in the SS was not grounds for denial of entry. Lying about it was.
That is not my question to you. He was stripped of his citizenship because he made certain people uncomfortable, the same people who are uncomfortable in a matter where Cuba and much of the world community would like us to turn someone over to the Cubans.
If we allow a sliding scale of who we are willing to turn people over to, it will ultimately be defined by who is politically dominant at a given time. The Obama people turn persons over to Cuba that the Bush people would not, and like wise the Bush people would turn them over to Columbia that the Obama people would not. Demjanjuk was stripped of his citizenship for political accomodation, and that is a problem.
And what he lied about was being in the SS. Having been in the SS was not grounds for denial of entry. Lying about it was.
At what point in the process was this discovered?
Damn you Moynihan!
I'm going to have that song stuck in my head all day now...
Moynihan the zionophile is at it again.
At the point when the charges were first brought.
The fact that he had been in the SS was established almost immediately and used as grounds to revoke his citizenship.
The question of whether he had actually participated in the killings needed to be the subject of a trial. Rightly or wrongly the government found there were sufficient grounds to extradite Ivan to Israel to face that trial.
But innocence or guilt on that count notwithstanding, his fraudulent visa application was sufficinet grounds to revoke his citizenship and deport him. The only reason, IIRC, that he was not deported to the Ukraine was the fact that it was part of the USSR at the time and it was against US policy to deport people to the Soviet Union. I am willing to be corrected on that matter though.
By the way, I find that Pitchfork Pat is sometimes unfairly maligned. But he does have an unfortunate habit of trivializing the holocaust without actually getting to outright denial.
He was stripped of his citizenship because he made certain people uncomfortable, the same people who are uncomfortable in a matter where Cuba and much of the world community would like us to turn someone over to the Cubans.
I think I speak for all sane people when I say... WTF?
How many times must this be repeated before you get it... he was stripped of his citizenship BECAUSE HE LIED ON HIS CITIZENSHIP APPLICATION.
He had an AMERICAN TRIAL specifically regarding his citizenship. I just read this case for my federal rules of evidence class. He had claimed to have been a schoolteacher and then unemployed during WWII when he applied for American citizenship. These were clearly lies, and the prosecution proved it.
Nazi apologists, stfu and then maybe people will start to take libertarianism seriously.
There is nothing in the United States costituion that authorizes the United States government to turn this guy over to any foreign power. Little things like chaining the government to its constitutional limits is far more important than pleasing the holycaust industry.
The united states constitution does not have a provision that authorizes the creation of an Immigration and Naturalization Service. The constitution does not authorize the feds to establish a visa system that permits the feds to revoke citizenship upon the basis of alleged fibs on one's visa application.
Further, have any of you heard of a thing called the statute of limitations? Pro Lib, what gives?
John-
How about prosecuting each and every american associated with Eisenhower's Holacaust? Where is the concern for the hundreds of thousands of german soldiers who were essentially starved to death in 1945-46 on Ike's orders?
libertymike,
There is no statute of limitations on first degree murder and on a number of other crimes.
libertymike
There are extradition treaties and treaties are clearly authorized in the COTUS.
Oh, and alan,
So we should just ignore it when someone brings evidence of someone having committed crimes?
Because it's not about making some people "uncomfortable" it about investigating wrongdoing.
Good luck with that, Libertmike.
So is it your hatred of Jews/others that drives you to irrelevancy, or are you really just an idiot?
it's
American Dreyfus as in the Dreyfus affair? The debacle in France in the 1890s? I love these little coincidences; we were just going over that in this german class that I'm taking. I had never heard of it before. And then it crops up all the sudden!!
On a personal note, when I was living in germany I went to Dachau. I went to Dachau by myself, which was retarded. Seeing the ovens was...very difficult, to say the least. The exhibits showing the medical experiments were worse. Time-lapse pictures of people being pressurized/depressurized and other cavalcades of horror.
I kept seeing people taking pictures in front of the Jewish memorial there. They were smiling. I wanted to stone them.
Reminds me of the time I went to Memphis with the fam and to the hotel/museum where MLK was shot. We took a smiling picture in front of his memorial. I was old enough to realize it was fucked, but too young to have the balls to tell my parents that i wouldnt be involved.
god i hate my life
Well, no, actually it does.
(emphasis mine)
You might not like the law Congess passed, but it was clearly within its power.
Kreel-
No. The provision does not authorize the creation of a bureaucracy called the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Its not there, period.
Libertymike,
So Congress can create a uniform rule of naturalization, but not enforce it? Period.
libertymike -
I know you're just a troll, but and this will mean nothing to you, but Article I Section 8 of the Constitution is wrapped up with
the Congress having the power "to make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers,and all other POwers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the UNited States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."
libertymike
I'm not sure what you expect here. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
The Constitution does not spell things out that way.
Establishing ICE is how Congress dealt with the power Section 8 gives it.
The government does at times do things beyond its constitutional powers. This is not one of those times.
Look I'm done quibbling.
I just remembered you're the one who quibbled about the six million number. I don't know what your point was then either.
Enough said.
Holy fuck, I don't even have to say anything about Moynihan or MNG for MNG to spoof me in a Moynihan thread. All I did here was call career douchebag Dave W. a douchebag. I didn't even say anything about the fucking thread!
...actually, that's pretty awesome.
Love ya, MNG, even if you are confused.
"But one cannot present a man who served in the SS and can be credibly placed at the Sobibor death camp as 'America's Dreyfus.'"
You can if you're Pat Buchanan, because Pat Buchanan never met an ex-Nazi he didn't like. (My apologies if someone has already used either or both of these gags.)
Fuck you Carl. Is the rule now that if you participate in the murder of millions that is okay and you can never be brought to justice as long as you keep your head down long enough? I don't know about you, but I think murdering 13 million people and starting the worst war in human history is worthy of hunting down the people involved until every one of them is dead.
...and fuck you John you histarical mother fucking witch hunting bastard. You don't even want the truth unless it fits your warped sense of decency you stupid cock breath This guy has already gone through one trial (in Israel of all places) and he was released. Now the Germans(?) the fucking, Home of the 3rd Reich Germans, of all people, are going to try a Ukrainian prisoner of war in Germany? You're OK with that?? You stupid ass hole? What if he is found not guilty again? How do you make up for the last 30 years that this guy and his family have had to spend defending himself? How about we put you on trial for jumping to conclusions and for being a stupid fuck holier-than-thou ass hole?
Kreel-
Constitutional interpretation is not an exercise in justifying the warfare/welfare state and all of its tentacles.
The grant of power to establish an uniform rule of naturalization does not, by its words, include the powert to create a permanent bureaucracy staffed by public sector lifers. It just does not.
The grant of power does not embrace the notion that Congress can delegate any of its authority to administrative agencies. Thus, ICE does not have the power to collect information on people.
Further, all grants of power are subject to the presumption of liberty. See the ninth amendment.
The necessary and proper clause is not a green light for the expansion of state powerr. Any laws enacted must be strictly tied to one of the enumerated powers, be necessary and proper and be in harmony with the constitution as a whole and the declaration of independence. The creation of a permanent bureaucracy that costs tens of billions of dollars per year is not compatible with the ninth amendment, the declaration of independence and is certainly not necessary and proper.
At this late date, it's a good question what constitutes a "fair trial". Almost all of the eyewitnesses are deceased or extremely aged, and it is problematic to try Demjanjuk on the same grounds for which his Israeli conviction was overturned. Has anything changed in the interim to better establish the facts? The guy's story is extremely shady, but what if the trial in Germany falls apart? At some point, the retrials begin to look like piling on, and I say this as a person who has no problem with those responsible for Nazi death camps getting their just punishment.
The Israelis trying anyone for anything after what just happened in Gaza is a joke.
Ah, a Palestine Hawk. Moral equivalency. My favorite subject.
Kreel,
The fact that he had been in the SS was established almost immediately and used as grounds to revoke his citizenship.
As you likely know, Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned that revocation on the grounds of prosecutorial misconduct. Do you doubt that politics played a role in the original fucking up of the case?
Meanwhile, the real Ivan The Terrible is some one out there. Okay, that was a bit of gratuitious humor, but there is a serious point. In the mid to late seventies when Demjanjuk was being mistaken for Ivan, these men were still in their sixties, no doubt, if he was still alive at that time, he breathed more easily and was able to move about more freely because of this mistake.
I have no qualms about going after old bastards who are responsible for genocide, but neither you nor I fucked this up, nor made it much more difficult to bring a legitimate case against this man, and those who did are the ones who deserve our ire.
You see what holds me back from doing stand up?
Meanwhile, the real Ivan The Terrible is some where out there.
Agreed that Pat Buchanan is full of shit. But, ultimately, what's the point of bringing a sick old guy up on charges on things he might or might not have done over sixty years ago? He'd probably kick off during the trial anyway.
"Meanwhile, the real Ivan The Terrible is some one out there." Unless he is the real Ivan the Terrible, the real one is probably dead.
Shit, just realized that the Ivan the Terrible charge was the one that he got acquitted on. Wasn't it?
"The fact that he had been in the SS was established almost immediately and used as grounds to revoke his citizenship."
And having been in Nazi Germany's military =/ being in the SS. While it's easy to judge from a comfortable historical distance, to someone from the Ukraine for whom Stalin's brutality would have been a recent memory, Hitler's Germany may well have seemed the lesser of two evils.
Nazi apologists, stfu and then maybe people will start to take libertarianism seriously.
I believe that qualifies for the drinking game.
cheers
BTW, not making any definitive judgments on this case. I only know what I hear online, and haven't looked too closely into the case.
alan,
You're right. He did Godwin the thread.
Now I have a reason to drink again!
Should have read ProL's post. So he was in the SS. Got it. This is the last time I post on anything I haven't researched.
no sweat, economist, it is the Libertarian way to find the ugliest issues possible and get into the mix of it, and then for others to come in and tell us how irrelevant we are because we are unwilling to do the Washington two step moral obfuscation dance.
If the Russians showed up and wanted some asshole who participated in the Stalinist terror, I have no problems with giving him over. The fact that the perpetraitors of communist mass murder went largely unpunished is one of the great injustices of the last 100 years.
What if the only evidence of his having "participated in the Stalinist terror" was that he was a guard at a Gulag camp? In other words, there was no evidence at all this he had participated directly in murder, torture, etc.? Would you say that just being a guard made him an "accessory" to the crimes of the actual killers? If so, then I guess you can consistently want to see Demjanjuk put on trial for being an accessory to the killings at Sobibor. And while you're at it, I guess you'd have no problem with prosecuting any soldier who was an MP at Abu Graib (or any CIA employee who served at one of the black sites) as an accessory to the crimes against prisoners there.
Meanwhile, the real Ivan The Terrible is some one out there.
I think it's pretty well accepted that the real Ivan the Terrible was Ivan Marchenko, who is now dead (and was dead at the time of Demjanjuk's first trial).
But, just because you are aquitted doesn't mean you are factually innocent. It just means the prosecutor couldn't make the case. Perhaps the Germans will have better evidence. We will find out.
Does the concept of "double jeopardy" mean anything to you?
You know, the right not to be tried more than once for the same time.
There's a reason it's explicitly prohibited in the US constitution.
To all you holocau&tians out there; of the 6 or 13 millions the Germans are supposed to have killed in gas chambers and then burned in pits or ovens or whatever,
CAN YOU SUPPLY THE NAME OF ONE PERSON, WITH PROOF, WHO WAS KILLED IN A GERMAN HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBER???
I find it strange and curious that numerous mass graves are now being discovered with German and axis deaths. Not one mass grave with Jews or other of the 5 million.
Something definitely stinks with this picture, and it ain't Jews in a mass grave.
H.F. Wolff
H.F. Wolff,
Okay, as a principled libertarian who doesn't want to be tarred by association with nutjobs: I think you're full of shit, ignorant, stupid, or all three.
That is all. Thank you.
" WITH PROOF, WHO WAS KILLED IN A GERMAN HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBER???"
Besides eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, and admissions by former guards?
No I guess not.
Shut the fuck up, H.F. Wolff
Seamus,
Demjanjuk was believed to have been Machenko at the time of his prosecustion:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978969,00.html
In a case so important, how could the authorities, both American and Israeli, have got it so wrong? At the time of Demjanjuk's denaturalization, extradition and conviction, they did not have the full body of evidence available today: statements made to Soviet authorities by 32 former guards and five forced laborers at Treblinka, all hailing from what was then the Soviet Union. They said a man named Ivan Marchenko was the Ivan of Treblinka. Marchenko, like Demjanjuk a native Ukrainian, was last seen in Yugoslavia in 1944. The statements of these 37, most of whom were executed by the Soviets as Nazi collaborators, were not obtained by Israeli courts until 1991. But as early as 1978, U.S. officials who handled Demjanjuk's case had the testimony of two of the guards, a fact they withheld from Demjanjuk's lawyers.
The story that Machenko was killed by the back side of a shovel was out there, it just was not universally believed.
Thank you for making my point so succinctly, there is no proof.
No scientific, no documentary, no forensic, evidence.
And you don't even have to take my word for this. Just check with your friendly Simon Wiesenthal Centre which will claim that there are "thousands of documents", NONE OF WHICH HAVE BEEN AUTHENTICATED IN A COURT OF LAW, or for which a chain of evidence or origin can be established.
As to eye witness testimony? Who am I, or you for that matter, one to argue with the Israeli Supreme Court ruling in the veracity of so-called eye witness testimony?
As a matter of fact all testimony is suspect because of catch-22 laws in Europe and $$$$ in the good ol' USA.
There even was an article about the questionability of eye witness testimony in HIT & RUN, but we can't let that clarify things now, can we, if it threatens the holocau$t cash flow.
Me shut up? Not in your wettest dreams.
H.F. Wolff
To repeat.
The problem was not that he had been in the SS, it was that he lied about it on his entry application. And no, he was not just in the German military, he was in the SS.
Many German WWII vets were admitted to the US, even SS vets. But they didn't lie about it.
alan
For what it's worth I do have qualms about what is going to be accomplished by continuing to prosecute an 89-year old man, in a wheelchair, who may not even be mentally competent.
I'm not sure that I wouldn't be quite content with, especially for a low-level flack like this guy, to do a sort of truth and reconciliation deal. Just come clean and we'll let you live out the rest of your life.
It's not like he's out there living it up with wild parties and hookers and stuff. Frankly, his life sounds kind of miserable.
H.F. Wolff
What other historical event is supported by evidence WHICH HAS BEEN AUTHENTICATED IN A COURT OF LAW?
I mean really, historical facts don't have to be proven in a court of law.
I will now go and shower.
I'm not sure that I wouldn't be quite content with, especially for a low-level flack like this guy, to do a sort of truth and reconciliation deal. Just come clean and we'll let you live out the rest of your life.
I agree that would be the most ideal outcome at this point. He has every incentive to take it to his grave, otherwise.
Kreel Sarloo:
Where is evidence used to impute an entire nation, used to blackmail this country into paying "reparations" to an entity that did not even exist at the time in question, used now by the third generation of "survivors" to establish claims for more reparations?
Read Pat Buchanan's Churchill & Hitler to find out how these fairy tales are being used to bend USA foreign and internal policies to its own detriment.
Methinks it only reasonable to insist on a test of veracity of any papers offered in support of highly questionable claims with such far reaching consequences.
Finally, none of the forensic examinations conducted on the bodies found in concentration camps after the war showed any signs of gassings. See reports by American and British pathologists.
Then of course there is the problem of mass graves with Jews, or rather the absence of these, even in spots positively identified by eye witnesses.
The only mass graves found contain bodies of Germans... Go figure.
H.F. Wolff
Fuck off, H.F. Wolff.
Holocaust deniers ARE NOT WELCOME here.
H.F. Wolff,
Do you have citations or links? rather than just baseless claims with no evidence to back them up? Do you?
Hazel Meade:
Such an intellectual comeback! Who gives a hoot as to what you want?
Engineer:
Interesting nom de plume.
You might begin by reading Pat Buchanan's book entitled 'Churchill and Hitler'.
Followed by 'Did 6 million really die?'
Look over the IHR website for referrals to many publications and the sites of the mass graves containing Germans.
Go to CODOH website for debate on the so-called evidence claimed to support the tales of the holocau$t.
Go to a website entitled 'sweetliberty.org', and under the heading "how wars are made" you will find referrals to original books and documentation written between the 2 world wars. This is a really interesting site.
Then you might look at a website entitled 'German History Archives Index' which also lists numerous books by various authors; I believe that these books are available on-line.
Read a book entitled "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" written by a professor of electrical engineering, no less, at a college in one of the New England states.
Finally, in many european countries asking questions about the holocau$t will land you in jail for up to 5 years. In Germany there are 8000 or so prosecutions per year for asking such nonPC questions; most of the convictions only result in fines, but some in serious jail time, even for the defense attorney for the accused if you can believe it. Google on the name "Stolz" to see what you get. This fact alone ought to raise the hackles of any thinking and freedom loving person.
Finally, you will notice the ad hominem attacks on me, but not a snippet of information attempting to prove me wrong!
H.F. Wolff
I hadn't been aware that support for Nazis and Holocaust deniers were part of the Libertarian philosophy.
How enlightening.
Mr (?) Wolff, please do some serious reading. The Germans have buildings full of the kind of information you seek. There are mass graves containing Jews and other victims of the Holocaust - some in the Ukraine where thousands of people were shot and buried en masse by the Germans - and there are mile upon mile of photographic and other evidence - indeed the good record keeping of the Germans ensured that the Holocaust is one of the best documented crimes against humanity in history.
There is no point, other than simple hatred, in trying to claim otherwise.
I'm seriously kind of disgusted with Libertarians, if this is who you really are:(
Lurker #2
H.F. Wolff is not a libertarian, he is a Nazi.
He is also full of shit.
Yes, people, ignore hundreds of well researched books documented with possibly thousands of eye witness interviews from everyone from the victims themselves to unapologetic Nazis who were still proud of what they had accomplished and backed up with the files of a regime that was just as efficient at record keeping as they were at mass murder.
Instead you should take the word of a single book written by a crackpot with no credentials as a historian.
Of course, there is no changing the mind of a nazi or a nazi apologizer. But for the sake of impressionable youth make sure that bullshit like this is never uncontested.
Oberfuhrer Wolff is correct about one thing, however. The European laws against holocausr denial do backfire and end up giving his kind ammunition to defend the unconscionable position.
"Read a book entitled "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" written by a professor of electrical engineering, no less, at a college in one of the New England states."
Oh, wow, forget everything i said.
Because an electrical engineer is so qualified to write a book about history.
Jesus Christ, Wolff, admit it, you're really just a parody of a Nazi, aren't you.
Lurker #2:
The claim is NOT about thousands being shot; the claim is about 6 million Jews being gassed in homicidal gas chambers by the Germans, and then cremated.
Yes, the Germans have buildings full of paper;
unfortunately for the holocau$t profiteers there is not one shred of credible documentary, forensic, or scientific evidence to substantiate this claim.
Agreed that there may be "thousands" of eye witnesses, but they were not good enough for the Israeli Supreme Court when it ruled Demjanchuk not guilty.
You might be interested in knowing that the International Red Cross issued its final report in 1973 or thereabouts regarding the number of deaths, due to all causes, in all German concentration camps. The number is, are you ready for it? 373,000 dead, in total, due to all causes. Nary a word about any gassings, much less mass gassings. Another interesting snipped of information is that this death rate is lower for the concentration camp inmates than for the population at large. Cute, don't you think?
Another website with much info is entitled'nazigassings'.
Also read what Germar Rudolf found during his chemical investigations of so-called gas chamber sites. He is now in prison in Germany for publishing his findings which, btw, were never refuted because he happened to be a brilliant PhD candidate in chemistry.
Abner MacGillicuddy:
The number of mind readers on these blogs never cease to amaze me; and you are another one! You must do well on the stock market!
H.F. Wolff
Where would one find this Red Cross report, Wolff?
I tell you, I always knew those cagey fucking jews were up to no good.
"The number of mind readers on these blogs never cease to amaze me; and you are another one!"
No, I'm not a mindreader, but I do know an asshole when I see one.
Abner MacGillicuddy:
Professional "historians" won't touch this issue because they are afraid for their jobs.
Just ask one Norman Finkelstein, and he didn't even ask questions about the holocau$t; he only lamented about the billion dollar industry it had become, with very little if any of the $$$ filtering down to the bonafide camp survivers. This was sufficient to stop his career development cold.
Ask Mearsheimer & Walt what happened to them when they published their book covering the undue influence of AIPAC on USA foreign and domestic policies, to the detriment of USA interests.
The professor of electrical engineering got away with his book because he is a tenured professor in electrical engineering and his book is outside his discipline. Nonetheless, no one was able to refute his book, but only can come up with ad hominem attacks such as you are doing.
H.F. Wolff
"Ask Mearsheimer & Walt what happened to them when they published their book covering the undue influence of AIPAC on USA foreign and domestic policies, to the detriment of USA interests."
AIPAC is the Israeli lobbying group, no?
The facts of the Holocaust stand alone and separate from policies regarding Israel. Don't mix them up, there are enough people doing that already.
Abner MacGillicuddy:
I was merely trying to illustrate to the likes of you the effects on one's career of even MILDLY criticizing anything that Jews do.
Impairing this cash flow resulting from the tales of the holocau$t will get you imprisoned if you persist, as I have pointed out earlier, above.
I have read the books of so-called survivors, so-called eye witness testimony, so-called historians, and compared this with books written between the wars, and scientific investigations later on.
Combined with the draconian prison sentences in Europe for serious questioners, exceeding those meted out for convicted child molesters and axe murderers, led me to the conclusion that something is seriously wrong with holocau$t claims.
All the name calling serves to reinforce my conclusions.
H.F. Wolff
"Combined with the draconian prison sentences in Europe for serious questioners, exceeding those meted out for convicted child molesters and axe murderers, led me to the conclusion that something is seriously wrong with holocau$t claims."
Yes, many of us have known for a long time that prosecuting holocaust deniers would lead morons like you to believe their claims.
I'm afraid I don't know any other name to call a moron.
I'll give you credit though. You certainly are tireless in your battle against the Jewish menace. Adolf would have been proud.
And don't bother posting again for my benefit.
I have only so much time for goading idiots and yours has run out.
Abner MacGillicuddy
Ad hominem attacks.... I rest my case. You and your tribe of black-mailing holocau$t profiteers are on the run from the light of knowledge.
Have a nice trip:-))
H.F. Wolff
"I'm seriously kind of disgusted with Libertarians, if this is who you really are:("
OK, for the last damn time, we do not think like H.F. Wolff. It's not our fault that he chose to troll here. Read some of the comments from the regular posters before saying "libertians disgust me".
H.F. Wolff,
WTF is wrong with you? Do you have a boner for going online and making an ass of yourself? Do you?
(emphasis mine)
Yeh, with a name like Abner MacGillicuddy, he sounds like he's one of them, doesn't he?
Abner might have left but as far as I can tell telling an idiot he's an idiot is not an ad hominem attack. And only an idiot, or someone with a different agenda, would ignore the voluminous evidence for the Holocaust and pretend that the scribblings of crackpots were the truth.
WEll that's sort of hard because, as you can well attest, Jews aren't really human, so why would anyone remember their names, or even recognize that they had them?
Would you settle for the testimony of one of the executioners, Rudolf Hoess, SS Commandant of Auschwitz, instead?
and
(emphasis mine)
Sounds a lot like court of law level evidence to me.
Or was he lying?
Oh, wait, I get it. That's how fucking evil those Jew bastards are. One of them spent his whole life (that's how long the Elders of Zion were planning this, you know) pretending to be a Catholic and then let himself be put on trial and told all these lies about gassing Jews and let himself be hanged.
Dammit, you'd think the International Jewish conspiracy would have been able to rescue one of their best agents. But I guess someone had to sacrifice himself for the cause.
Like, I totally bet that there's like this huge memorial to Rudolf Hoess (or whatever his real Jew name is) at International Jewish Conspiracy Headquarters.
Kreel Sarloo:
Many Jews change their name as others change their underwear.
Hoess was tortured to extract his "confession", which was written in English, a language he did not understand. Further, there are so many inconsistencies in his "confessions" that it is clear, through studying the various aspects, that he was coerced to sign a paper he did not write nor understand.
Interesting that you would quote "evidence" from the Nuernberg Trials because several USA Supreme Court Justices that attended these trials as observers left in disgust, calling them Kangaroo courts or worse.
Of course you and your ilk (like that term better?) wouldn't let a little fact like that concern you now, would you?
H.F. Wolff
"several USA Supreme Court Justices that attended these trials as observers left in disgust"
Name one! Seriously, name and quote one, ONE, single USA Supreme Court Justice who attended these trials as an observer and left in disgust.
Upthread you mentioned some Red Cross report but when questioned on it you wouldn't furnish a link (something you've done throughout). In fact, in fact you were just as unresponsive there about providing any kind of rebuttal as any where else.
All you you seem to provide are the unsubstantiated musings of other Nazis like you.
So where can I find this Red Cross report?
And if I do find it, will I find, as I suspect I will, that it is either 1) not relevant to this discussion, or 2) does not say what you claim it says? The latter is a common fault of conspiracy theory types, from the Kennedy assassination to birth certifiGATE. That is, saying that reports of court decisions say one thing, when in fact they say quite another.
Sorry, mein Fuhrer, but you're so full of shit it's leaking out and you're starting to stink.
Is H.F. Wolff still here? Dammit. It's forgivable to shit once on a thread, but to come back and take repeated dumps on the thread is unacceptable. And the worst part is, since H.F. Wolff is such a douche anyway, I can't unleash the spoof war against him.
Hey, he's a fucking Nazi. Remember how persistent those fucks were in the 30s and 40s.
Nearly took over the world, dammit.
And like all Nazis he's big on making unfounded assertions.
Funny how both commies and nazis do that.
And the whole claiming things say things they don't. And the whole denying all the evidence that indicts them in spite ofall the proof against them.
It'd be funny except that they're all such murderous, lying, totalitarian fuckheads.
Kreel Sarloo,
economist,
What a truly intellectually pathetic bunch you are.
No wonder a US senator stated that you can never go wrong UNDERESTIMATING the intelligence of the US voter. You two are certainly proof positive of that assertion!
However, being a reasonable person, here are the names of 3 justices; some of them were quoted in John F. Kennedy's "Profiles in Courage".
Chief Justice Harland Fiske Stone
Justice William O. Douglas
Justice Wennerstrum
Other US officials with similarly low opinions on the proceedings in Nuernberg:
US Senator Robert Taft
E.L. van Rhoden, with the Simpson Army Commission
The Red Cross document you will find yourself.
"Name calling is the final refuge of the out-argued holocau$t profiteer".
Only the truly stupid defend those who are robbing them blind. You are welcome to your cesspool.
H.F. Wolff
How many libertarians have to say "Fuck off, holocaust deniers aren't welcome here." before (a) the holocaust deniers fuck off, or (b) faux-lurkers recognize that these people have no association with libertarians?
Actually, that was H L Mencken, who while a brilliant writer, never actually belonged to the World's Greatest Bunch of BlowhardsDeliberative Body.
Of course, I expect this kind of super truthful accuracy from a student of the the author of the great lie principle. Zieg Heil.
Wow, dude, quote some more from Profiles in Courage, that ghost written epic that America's playboy president, son of a Nazi apologist (and one of the worst) passed off as his own. That's convincing.
There are many reasonable critiscisms of the Nuremberg proceedings but the actual truth of the findings and the level of proof have never been among them. If you actually have any please provide them. Remember we are discussing the matter of historical truth here not whether individual convictions passed tests of constitutional muster.
Remember, we all (even the jurors that acquitted him) know that OJ was guilty. The fact that he still got to walk the streets afterwords didn't change the fact that he killed his ex-wife and her boyfriend.
Historical proof and courtroom proof are not the same thing.
If you want me to read the Red Cross document you will provide a link, otherwise I will assume that it either 1) does not exist, 2) is not relevant to this discussion, or 2) does not say what you claim it says.
You are the one making extraordinary claims. You are the one who has to provide the evidence for them.
No, sometimes name calling is the only way to respond to homicidal, totalitarian Nazi motherfuckers who make unfounded assertions totally at odds with the historical record.
Of course name calling is crass and crude, but we're all human, except for those dirty fucking Jews, of course.
By the way Oberfuhrer Wolff go back to my 6:18pm post.
Was Rudolf Hoess lying? Were all the camp guards and workers who have testified to the facts of this matter? Was Rudolf Hoess an agent of the International Jewish Conspiracy?
Was he one of the many Jews who change their name as others change their underwear?
And it's bullshit that he was tortured. There is absolutely no evidence that any Germans were tortured as a matter of policy*, not even low level ones. Furthermore, Hoess was and educated man. It is almost certain he understood some English.
*It is most certainly true that many German prisoners were mistreated and even killed by individual GIs but the policy of the US government was humane treatment of all detainees.
Hazel
You have to remember that holocaust deniers are really denying anything. They're just regretting the fact that they didn't succeed at killing all the dirty filthy fucking Jews the first time around. They know good and fucking well what the gas chambers were for but the H.F. Wolffs of the world are such good students of Herr Goebbels that they will continue the great lie for ever.
This leads to same sort of obsessive persistence to succeed that motivated the Nazis in the thirties and forties.
I can readily imagine H.F. Wolff's frustration that his hero was thwarted in his grand scheme. But fellows like him will not be deterred. They will succeed in establishing the Fourth Reich and they will finish all the things left undone. Or at least in their dreams they will. Eventually they will die.
In the meantime they will bug the shit out of sensible people like us.
As I said, you are welcome to your cesspool.
If you wish to accept documents and witnesses as presented during the Nuernberg trials, so be it.
I don't.
But then my standards have always been much higher than those of the US voter.
You are truly a swinish bunch, and ignorant but happy as a pig in the proverbial shit.
Happy wallowing in your truly astounding ignorance.
H.F. Wolff
"If you wish to accept documents and witnesses as presented during the Nuernberg trials, so be it."
And if you wish to accept bullshit dished up by Nazi apologists, so be it.
Heil Hitler, Oberfuhrer Wolff.
Good luck in your quest to exterminate the Jews. I think you might find them a little more hardy than you think.
"Happy wallowing in your truly astounding ignorance."
And the same, you Nazi pig, to you.
Or else, just go fuck yourself.
And don't fucking complain about getting no respect. Nazis don't deserve respect.
"You are truly a swinish bunch"
OinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOinkOink
Better than being a filthy fucking Nazi!!!!!!!!!!!
What a truly content free response.
You have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence for your claims and you have responded by claiming that certain works, that you are unprepared to furnish through links, exist.
Again, making the extraordinary claim that a widely accepted event, viz the holocaust, never happened requires you to go to extra lengths to provide verification of your claims. There is no requirement that I should make additional efforts to find obscure works that run counter to the generally accepted historical record.
So far, you have failed, choosing instead to claim that your enemies are not giving your claims sufficient respect. Or complaining when people tell you your claims are so outlandish that they deserve no respect.
Well, unfounded claims deserve no respect. Especially when they appear to be nothing more than the musings of lunatics.
Furthermore you quote irrelevancies. Legal scholars who have quibbles with procedures but not the facts. And scholars (eg Norman Finkelstein) who have a problem with the State of Israel and its relationship to the United States(something shared by many at this site, including me) but none with the facts of the Nazi extermination of the Jews. Indeed Norman Finkelstein's major problem appears to be people trivializing the death of his grandparents and an entire generation or two of extended family by exploiting the event of the holocaust for personal and political gain. Nowhere does he deny the fact of the attempted extermination of the Jews by the Nazi authorities and the widely accepted means by which they attempted to accomplish that goal.
Even Pitchfork Pat Buchanan who is the original subject of this thread does not deny the general facts of the Holocaust. In this case, he is merely quibbling over whether some old Ukrainian guy who joined the SS is guilty of some set of crimes he's accused of.
Kreel Sarloo:
As usual you holocau$tians have the cart before the horse.
I am not accusing anybody; I am merely asking questions.
It is you and your ilk that is accusing the entire German Nation of unspeakable crimes.
And to repeat, there is not a single shred of scientific, authenticated documentary, nor forensic evidence to substantiate your claims of the holocau$t.
As defense I merely have to point out deficiencies in your evidence, show inconsistencies, or prove that what is testified to is scientifically impossible.
And this has indeed been accomplished numerous times because a thousand witnesses cannot refute one single, solitary, scientific fact.
The problem with the eye-witness testimony is that it is all conflicting and scientifically impossible. This is why the Israeli Supreme Court found Demjanchuk not guilty.
You can decry my proffed answers all you want, but you cannot refute them. Arm waving and loud voices are not rebuttal.
Pat Buchanan treads very carefully on this issue and takes no sides, because he knows his name would be mud.
Norman Finkelstein quotes his dear mother who is to have said that if there are all these holocau$t survivors around who did the Nazis kill? Do you really think he would use a tongue-in-cheek expression in a serious work such as his? You could ask him through his web site.
Here are some numbers to chew on: In 2002 the Israeli government is on record as stating that over 1 million survivors were still alive. In 2005 or so the German government is on record as stating that they were still paying reparations to 1.7 million survivors. Actuarial calculations would show how many were alive after the war, 64 years ago.
My assertion is simply that there are too many scientific impossibilities in the face of all holocau$tian claims, and in any decent court of law that would mean dismissal.
H.F. Wolff
Truly epic fail. What really happened is that all you Holocaust deniers dismiss out of hand all the mountains of evidence that contradicts your mad quest to prove a negative.
Why should I trust your take on history when you seem unable to remember what you said even an hour earlier? Or even in the same comment? Not surprising, though.
Ah, Wolff, repeating the same lies, halftruths and irrelevancies, over and over. You have learned well, Herr Goebbels would be proud.
I'm sure there will be a high office for you in the Fourth Reich.
Maybe, you'll even get to run one of the "non-existent" camps to rid the world of the Jewish menace.
I must confess, I've run across a few nazi wannabes in my time but your the first one that the genuine article.
Well, good luck to you. I hope you enjoy the social ostracism that you deserve.
The claim is NOT about thousands being shot; the claim is about 6 million Jews being gassed in homicidal gas chambers by the Germans, and then cremated.
No, it isn't. The claim is that several million European Jews (probably somewhere between 5 and 6 million -- a number calculated by comparing the pre-war and post-war Jewish populations of Europe and adjusting for natural increase and natural mortality) were killed in one way of another -- some by gassing in camps, some by shooting by Einsatzgruppen, some by makeshift measures such as carbon monoxide poisoning from truck exhaust, etc.
If you were at all intellectually honest you would make at least some effort to look at the information that I supplied... out of simple curiosity. That is how I got onto this track, simple curiosity.
Especially in this day and age where governments lie to their citizens all the time, and the administration of justice is a joke.
A lawyer defending an axe murderer in court does not make that lawyer an axe murderer nor an accomplice to that axe murder.
You are so true to form in calling me names, morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Against stupidity even the gods fight a loosing battle.
H.F. Wolff
seamus,
If they were not cremated, where are the bodies, the mass graves?????
The only mass graves found to date contains Polish soldiers -Katyn Forest- responsibility of the Soviets but for which Germans were blamed and executed. And more recently, the graves contained bodies of German civilians.
The areas identified by eye witnesses as containing Jewish mass graves were examined with ground penetrating radar which determined that the soil there had lain undisturbed for hundreds of years.
And so it goes. Every time so-called eye witness testimony is put under the proverbial forensic microscope the evidence evaporates.
H.F. Wolff
Hey, Wolff, you ever hear of confirmation bias? Let me guess, no.
Scroll down, dumbass.
Can we please bring the banhammer on H.F. Wolff? Honestly, if AO got the banhammer, this douche should get the banhammer.
"You are truly a swinish bunch, and ignorant but happy as a pig in the proverbial shit."
Damn, but you're an obnoxious little douche. Come on, tell us the truth. You're a fat, pimply 25-year-old sitting in his mom's basement eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew and shock posting because your pathetic life allows you no real pleasure other than being a dick.
It's none of your business if I live with my mom, and I'm not fat I'm big-boned! And I'm like six feet tall. So bring it, bitch!
Land of the feeble and home of the brain dead, to paraphrase a famous line.
Economist: nice nom de plume btw, can't hack the real & hard sciences, can you?
Now your feeble attempt at transference; it is truly to laugh.
The German word Schadenfreude describes the situation as you see your economy and your society crumble around your ears. But you will be wallowing in blissful ignorance.
Go to a website entitled NAFCASH I think it is. Those fellows are offering a $250,000 dollar reward for any evidence of mass graves containing Jews. No takers. I wonder why?
H.F. Wolff
"If you were at all intellectually honest you would make at least some effort to look at the information that I supplied... out of simple curiosity."
Jesus fucking Christ, Wolff, do you think your the first exposure I've had to Holocaust denial.
I'll admit, you're the first full blown Jew hating, Nazi that I can remember, but you're not the first source of this bullshit I've come across.
No from the crap I've read personally and from the conclusions of people I trust I'm perfectly satisfied that a closer examination would be a waste of time.
Stop complaining about getting no respect when you're spouting crap that deserves none.
Art-P.O.G.:
Wikipidia, that font of all knowledge and truth.
Yes indeed.
Most children become adults and outgrow childish beliefs.
Others believe in fairy tales or Greuelpropaganda for their entire lives.
H.F. Wolff
So, my coreligionist relatives - Israel Bailinki, Sarah Marx, et. al. - really just went out for a pack of cigarettes? That's such a relief because I thought they had all been rounded up, deported and murdered.
Thanks, Herr Wolff, that's a real load off my mind.
Yeah, you're right, Wikipedia's real unreliable compared to random Neo-Nazis on the internet. And I suppose those photos of mass graves are forgeries created by the Elders of Zion at the center of the Earth? Go play in traffic for real, Wolff.
Is this H.F. Wolff psycho for real?
"Most children become adults and outgrow childish beliefs."
I'm sorry you're jealous of us adults, H.F.
Why do you all have such difficulty comprehending the English language?
I wish you all well in your truly astounding ignorance... perhaps it rally is stupidity.
That quip about casting pearls among swine springs to mind...
H.F. Wolff
engineer,
Sanitary engineer, right?
H.F. Wolff
"Why do you all have such difficulty comprehending the English language?
I wish you all well in your truly astounding ignorance... perhaps it rally is stupidity."
Oh, man, classic joe's law.
And, no, I'm a mechanical engineer(ing student).
Could H.F. Wolff be the EVIL ALTERNATE UNIVERSE counterpart of Libertarian Keyboard Warriors?
Tracing H.F. Wolff's IP Address now...
Apostate Jew:
Sorry about your loss, truly.
But then your tribe ought to be careful about declaring war.
You remember the newspaper headlines in 1933:
"Judea Declares War on Germany" were the headlines around the world. Unfortunately the great unwashed become grist in the mill as it were.
H.F. Wolff
H.F. Wolff,
Your last post proves that you're either nuts, stupid, or a twit who gets his jollies by trying to shock everyone else with his apparent stupidity or insanity.
This is my last post, as it is inadvisable to feed the troll.
would-be engineer:
Your'e in the bottom half of your class.
H.F. Wolff
WHY DID THE GERMAN AUTHORITIES INTERN JEWS IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS?
Because the Germans considered the Jews a direct threat to their national sovereignty and survival, correctly as it turned out. Jews were overwhelmingly represented in Germany in Communist subversion during the Weimar period. On a per capita basis, Jews were highly overrepresented in government, commercial, and media positions. However, ALL suspected security risks, not just Jews, were in danger of internment once the war broke out.
On March 24th, 1933, international Jewry declared war on Germany and ordered a world-wide boycott of German goods simply because the German government had removed Jews from influential positions and transferred power back to the German people. The boycott order and the Jewish war against Germany were reported in the world print and broadcast media of the time. False stories of German "death camps" were in fact circulated even before the outbreak of World War Two. Therefore the German view of the Jewish people as enemy aliens would seem to have been fully justified.
would-be engineer:
Google on "Judea Declares War on Germany".
Even Wikipedia has a listing, with the usual zionist excuses of course.
They even have a jpg. of the paper with the headline.
H.F. Wolff
"Your'e in the bottom half of your class."
I already know I'm smarter than you, so your snarks are meaningless to me.
BTW, you ZOG dupes, I'd recommend having chicks piss in your face and shit on your chest sometime. It did wonders for mein hero Hitler and it helps get a pathetic neo-Nazi sociopathic like me through life.
I AM H.F. WOLFF!
Pwning H.F.W. is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Personally, I think H.F. Wolff is actually a leftist trolling to try to plant "evidence" of holocaust denial on a libertarian website.
I.e. To buttress the recent lefty meme furiously being promoted by the Obama Keyboard Warriors that anti-goverment protestors are linked to neo-naziism.
I mean, we're all dangerous right-wing extremeists who have to be closely watched by the feds, in case we try to overthrow the government, right?
What better way to make the case than to go around spamming libertarian message boards with neo-nazi bullshit?
Hazel,
The funny thing is, H.F. Wolff's style sounds just like LKW's, except as holocaust denialism. And I have trouble believing can be quite as stupid as H.F. Wolff. So do I think LKW might be spamming as H.F. Wolff? Possibly. Perhaps we should compare IP addresses? Jesse? It's okay, you can even out me on my alternate identity, if you think it's necessary.
BTW, the 9:05 post above was not mine; probably "engineered" by the juvenile poster 'engineer'.
Who is LKW, and what does he write?
economist: over the next 2 years we'll see who is really stupid. My vote is for you and your ilk with your heads buried in the sand, chanting "my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts".
H.F. Wolff
economist: over the next 2 years we'll see who is really stupid. My vote is for you and your ilk with your heads buried in the sand, chanting "my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts".
H.F. Wolff
That's an odd remark. Do you really expect that over the next two years historians are going to suddenly discover that the holocaust never happened?
The only thing that happens in two years is a mid-term election.
Gave yourself away there, huh?
Ms Hazel Meade:
You are much too paranoid; I don't even live in the USA and couldn't care less who runs your nation into the ground.
I was commenting on the economic collapse that is being fostered by those your friend "economist" so vehemently defends.
It is certainly fun watching the mental gyrations the recent posters here go through!
For me Hit & Run is merely a blog I enjoy perusing from time to time, and to stick my oar in as it were, when I see particularly blatantly erroneous postings on issues I have researched, and have knowledge of, myself.
You may rest assuredly that I am not in the pay of any government agency in the USA or anywhere else; indeed I am proud of the fact that I am self employed, offering my services in the hard sciences to industries that pay me handsomely for my advice and recommendations.
H.F. Wolff
Oh, no. I'm not suggesting your in anyone's PAY.
I rather think your a freelancer.
I don't really think that the Democrats are dumb enough to actually pay anyone to do shit like this. Especially when they have so many volunteers. The Obama Youth, ya know.
"You are much too paranoid;"
This is rich coming from someone who supposedly thinks a Jewish conspiracy will destroy the economy. But then again, you probably don't. You're probable, like Hazel Meade said, a lefty spamming the boards to make us look like neo-Nazis.
Hey, try posting that neo-Nazi crap under actual posters' handles.
*So he can get banned. The persistent trolling is starting to piss me off.
Okay, so "starting to piss me off" is an understatement.
If they were not cremated, where are the bodies, the mass graves?????
You claim that the standard account of the Holocaust is that 6 million Jews were murdered in gas chambers, then cremated. I point out that the stardard story is in fact that between 5 and 6 million Jews were murdered in all sorts of ways; I said nothing about cremation. You come back with "Aha! What about the nonexistent mass graves?" In this, you resemble the Jesuits in the story who are reputed to have killed three men and a dog, and who triumphantly produce the dog alive.
But since you insist on raising the question of mass graves:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19053913/
seamus:
Only 5,972,000 to go.
One mass grave with an estimated 28,000 bodies as stated by one Svartsman, in 65 years.
No forensics yet, so they could very well have died during the famine of the early 1930's, in which case the Soviets were to blame.
But then we have all heard a tale such as this before... Anyone remember Katyn Forest?
Still no answer as to who LKW is. Figment of the imagination of a questionable mind?
H.F. Wolff
economist:
Are you off your meds? In which case take a pill, a deep breath, and see your shrink.
Who is LKW?
H.F. Wolff
For the more curious among you, and the ones that have some difficulty in swallowing the Hollywood, comic book, and PC history book versions of the holocau$t, might find the following book of some interest. I have not read it, but I will. I have no connection with the authorship or distribution/sales of this book.
H.F. Wolff
Debating the Holocaust: A New Look at Both Sides
[0035] $29.98
Book
Thomas Dalton
Softcover book, 240 pages
ISBN: 1591480051 / 978-1591480051
Stock Number: 0035
In this remarkable, balanced book, the author skillfully reviews and compares "traditional" and "revisionist" views on the "The Holocaust."
On one side is the traditional, orthodox view -- six million Jewish casualties, gas chambers, cremation ovens, mass graves, and thousands of witnesses. On the other is the view of a small band of skeptical writers and researchers, often unfairly labeled "deniers," who contend that the public has been gravely misled about this emotion-laden chapter of history.
The author establishes that the arguments and findings of revisionist scholars are substantive, and deserve serious consideration. He points out, for example, that even the eminent Jewish Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg acknowledged that there was no budget, plan or order by Hitler for a World War II program to exterminate Europe's Jews.
This book is especially relevant right now, as "Holocaust deniers" are routinely and harshly punished for their "blasphemy," and as growing numbers of people regard the standard, Hollywoodized "Holocaust" narrative with mounting suspicion and distrust.
The author of this book, who writes under the pen name of "Thomas Dalton," is an American scholar who holds a doctoral degree from a major US university.
This is no peripheral debate between arcane views of some obscure aspect of twentieth century history. Instead, this is a clash with profound social-political implications regarding freedom of speech and press, the manipulation of public opinion, how our cultural life is shaped, and how power is wielded in our society.
You're probable, like Hazel Meade said, a lefty spamming the boards to make us look like neo-Nazis.
Let's not forget the faux "Lurker #2" showing up to go "OMG! Look! Neo-Nazis! Libertarians are Neo-Nazis!"
Someone should check the IP address. It's probably the same person as HF Wolff.
Seriously, anyone whose actually "lurked" around here for more than five minutes knows that libertarians are the furthest thing from neo-nazis. The guy was obviously a fake.
Save yourself the trouble.
I'm not lurker #2.
H.F. Wolff
Hey, Lurker #2: Give it up! We know it's you, so stop faking. Only a dumb shit lefty trying his best to convince everyone that libertarians are Nazis would post your crap with such persistence.
Please fuck off before you get the banhammer.
Seriously, Lurker #2, you're not funny. You're even less funny than I was when I came up with my own spoof-bot act. The whole "H.F. Wolff" thing got old by the first post. So please, either come out and reveal your true colors as a lefty troll, or bugger off.
At the web address below you will find the memorandum from the International Committee of the Red Cross, tabulating the deaths in German concentration camps, due to all causes.
http://christianparty.net/holocaustredcross.htm
economist: still off your meds I see. You really need to see a shrink. All that pent-up anger... tsk tsk.
If I were to reveal my "true colours" as you so courteously demand, you wouldn't believe it because you and your ilk can't handle the truth, as the movie so aptly puts it.
H.H. Wolff
Hey, H.F. (or is it H.H.?), your act is so old. And your "(o)nly 5,972,000 to go" comment is testament to the mediocrity of your mind. Quit with the sophistry.
And it's bullshit that he was tortured. There is absolutely no evidence that any Germans were tortured as a matter of policy*, not even low level ones.
I wouldn't be so sure. According to Freda Utley (mother of The American Conservative's Associate Publisher Jon Basil Utley):
Freda Utley, The High Cost of Vengeance (Chicago: Henry Regnery Company, 1949), 185-86.
To turn back to Mr. Wolff (yes, I know, I can't help feeding the trolls):
Only 5,972,000 to go.
One mass grave with an estimated 28,000 bodies as stated by one Svartsman, in 65 years.
I thought you were claiming that the received Holocaust story was that *all* the corpses were cremated. 28,000 bodies is enough to disprove that claim, which is why I didn't conduct an exhaustive search to locate all reported mass graves. There may well be more. And even if you then argue that they aren't really Holocaust graves, but rather Great Terror graves, the fact that they're being pointed to as Holocaust graves is sufficient to disprove your claim that the received account is that all those murdered were cremated.
H.F. Wolf is either stupid, a psychopath, or a badly done spoof (I'm leaning towards the last one).
Seamus wrote:
"I thought you were claiming that the received Holocaust story was that *all* the corpses were cremated. 28,000 bodies is enough to disprove that claim, which is why I didn't conduct an exhaustive search to locate all reported mass graves. There may well be more. And even if you then argue that they aren't really Holocaust graves, but rather Great Terror graves, the fact that they're being pointed to as Holocaust graves is sufficient to disprove your claim that the received account is that all those murdered were cremated."
What is it you're saying here?
economist: are you any better with you dismal science?
H.F. Wolff
What is it you're saying here?
I'm saying that I don't have to prove that 6 million murdered Jews were cremated in order to show that you're wrong. I can do it by showing that it is claimed that 28,000 murdered Jews were buried in a mass grave.
Let's see the autopsy and other investigative reports from an independent international investigative body, without any Israeli, USA, or German participation.
It is just too PC to blame everything on the Nazis, as was done with Katyn Forest in Poland.
H.F. Wolff
the book Hitler's justice contradicts the claim 1968 wasn't an amnesty for nazis