Anders Fogh's Gallipoli

As Matt pointed out earlier today, Obama is now soft-peddling his support of the Armenian Genocide Resolution, which would specifically label the massacres perpetrated by the Ottomans in 1915 as "genocide." It is that yearly ritual, as Christopher Hitchens points out in Slate, when "the deniers and euphemists set to work again" gathering "enough military-industrial votes to tip the scale in favor of our Turkish client." But Obama is not the only one groveling to Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdo?an. Former Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who bravely resisted calls to apologize for the printing (in a private newspaper, of course) of caricatures of Muhammad, is now "clarifying" his great respect for Islam. Now, as aspiring NATO chief, Rasmussen faces opposition from Erdo?an for allowing a free press in his country, which resulted in the grievous offense of countless Muslims in Turkey, and for allowing a PKK-affiliated television station to broadcast from Denmark. From Hurriyet's English-language site:

"NATO is an organization whose duties are to ensure peace," Erdo?an said. "But the mouthpiece of the terror organization in my country is broadcasting from Denmark. I wrote to Mr. Rasmussen four years ago, but he did not do anything."

Erdo?an also criticized Rasmussen's attitude during the crisis over the publication of the Prophet Mohammed cartoons. "How can those who made no contribution to peace at that time contribute to peace now?" Erdo?an asked. "This raises question marks." "This is my personal opinion. I look at [his candidacy] negatively," Erdo?an added.

Ramussen didn't apologize for the publication of the cartoons, but made it clear that, in deeply irreligious Denmark, people really, really respect religion. Now 1) don't hurt us and 2) please let me be NATO secretary general. Video below, in English, via Jyllands-Posten:

Comments

[Robert]

Who the fuck cares now? Of those who were killed, are there even any still alive?

[the innominate one]

of course not, Robert. if they were killed, they certainly aren't alive now. however, their friends and family and survivors of the genocide may be.

[Elemenope]

So the opinion of a prominent Armenian genocide scholar couldn't possibly matter here, could it? He seems pretty fucking pleased.

And FWIW, Robert, it matters historically because the inability of the international community to recognize the Armenian genocide when it occurred emboldened Adolf Hitler on his own program of genocide three decades later. He was so kind as to say so himself.

[Elemenope]

Also, can someone explain this to me:

A guy says: "I believe what happened to the Armenians was genocide."

A year later he says, when asked: "My views are on the record and have not changed."

How is this double-talk? How is this changing one's position?

Or, to put it a slightly different way,

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[Jerry]

And as a bonus Erdogan can send three military personel who are most closely couping against him away to Brussels. Any agreement on pulling troops out of Iraq via Turkey mr. Obama? I hope it was worth it.

[sonic reducer]

Of those who were killed, are there even any still alive?

Yeah, and where did they bury the survivors?

[dfd]

A year later he says, when asked: "My views are on the record and have not changed."

How is this double-talk? How is this changing one's position?

Oh for fuck sake lmnop, are you just trying to be difficult? Come on, I'm no Obama-hater (nor certainly Obamaphile) but how can anyone read what he said as candidate below and think that his dodge of the question with a weak "my views haven't changed" is not "soft-peddling"?

As candidate:

I also share with Armenian Americans - so many of whom are descended from genocide survivors - a principled commitment to commemorating and ending genocide. That starts with acknowledging the tragic instances of genocide in world history. As a U.S. Senator, I have stood with the Armenian American community in calling for Turkey's acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. Two years ago, I criticized the Secretary of State for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, after he properly used the term "genocide" to describe Turkey's slaughter of thousands of Armenians starting in 1915. I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence. The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Don't be obtuse. What he says now is nowhere near the clear, unequivocal statement above. If that isn't "soft-peddling" then nothing is.

[hugh jass]

Are foreign heads of state of countries who are friendly to us routinely pressured to declare that they believe that the Americans committed genocide with respect to the "Indians"?

[J sub D]

Are foreign heads of state of countries who are friendly to us routinely pressured to declare that they believe that the Americans committed genocide with respect to the "Indians"?

Whether the United States was guilty of genocide against the Indians* could credibly be argued from either side. I just call 'em as I see 'em.

The US government did in fact commit genocide.

* Yeah, Indians. I sometimes refer to East Asians as Orientals too. When you're an old fart you can do that.

[J sub D]

And Obama is learning that diplomacy leaves little room for blunt truths. Such an "intelligent" guy must have known that on the campaign trail. That just means he's a panderer and the Turkish dfiplomats are ignoring campaign rhetoric just as our diplomats ignore campaign rhetoric in other elections.

On a 10 point scale this bothers me about 0.2.

[/]

Progressives progress toward progressive theocratic progress.

News at the next full moon, PBUH.

[ed]

The US government did in fact commit genocide.

So did the Indians, albeit on a much smaller scale. Some of the more warlike nations had no reservations about wiping out enemy tribes. Bottom line: it sucks to lose.

[MNG]

I know a lot of folks think I'm obsessed with Israel-Palestine issues, but you have seen nothing when you give me a chance to opine on these topics. It's truly a tragedy that we feel for geo-political reasons that we must turn a blind eye to the plight of the Kurdish people in that region and deny the tragedy of the Armenian genocide. Yes, yes, it's great that Turkey has the Western orientation it does, and yes, yes, we should foster that, but not if that means turning a blind eye to these matters.

We should be working very hard to establish an independent Kurdish state. Hell, there already is one for all practical purposes in Iraq, but we must tip-toe around it because of the base positions of our Turkish and Iraqi allies. Screw them and that.

[MNG]

"Bottom line: it sucks to lose."

So if Marx et al., were right and communism wins, then it is a good thing, huh?

This idea that what HAS happened should be the guide for what OUGHT to happen is nutty McNuts...

[BakedPenguin]

I sometimes refer to East Asians as Orientals too.

The last time I heard someone say "Oriental", it was an East Asian person.

A year later he says, when asked: "My views are on the record and have not changed." ...How is this double-talk?

I have to agree. Obama's backsliding on a lot of shit, but not this. He went as far as he could without actively insulting the Turks, who as they like to point out, are our NATO allies. And as they don't like to point out, also serve as a forward base for resupplying Iraq. Frankly, given the potential consequences for either action, I'm surprised he didn't do a real backslide (genocide? what genocide?)

[ed]

So if Marx et al., were right and communism wins, then it is a good thing, huh?

Where'd you get that idea?
Wars have winners and losers.
In the Indian wars, the Indians lost.
And it sucked. For them.
But they got in a few good licks.

[pigwiggle]

So the opinion of a prominent Armenian genocide scholar couldn't possibly matter here, could it? He seems pretty fucking pleased.

Oh brilliant. Yeah, lets ask a Turk what he thinks of the President soft pedaling a genocide committed by Turks. So Obama eluded to earlier critical comments in the midst of fluffing Turkish egos - way to bust balls.

[MNG]

"said he had not changed his view but had been encouraged by negotiations between Turkey and Armenia on the issue"

And, I'm totally with lmnop on this one. So while he was in Turkey trying to make nice with them he did not give the same speech he did in the Senate, but he did say "I have not changed my view" on this issue. That's hardly a flip flop!

It's like me saying some long and passionate diatribe agains the evils of the Republican Party, and then going over to a friends party who I know is a Republican and someone asks me "hey, what do you think of the Republicans" and me saying "well, we all know how I feel about that, but right now let's get back to drinking beer and watching the game."

[MNG]

ed
You seemed to be trying to undercut the wrongness of our actions re the Indians by saying "well they did it to, they just lost in the end, the part that sucks is the losing."

Sorry if I read that wrong. But to be clear, any genocides committed by Indians, wrong, and any by us, wrong.

[Anonymous]

and any by us, wrong

I ain't recall shootin' any enjun tweren't askin' fer it, nor coulda defended hisself in a court o' law. I ain't seen no tribes on the warpath, neither.

Reckon that us wasn't there at the time.

[Jerry]

Well obviously OBama couldn't say it was a genocide either, the Turks would have had to arrest him for insulting the national honor.

[pigwiggle]

Mmmpf ... allude, rather.

[Bill]

There was no Armenian genocide. It is a historical fiction. Do you ever wonder why these Armenians push this nonsense? And why the Greeks join them in the crusade? And why should it matter to our government in 2009?

[Anonymous]

Do you ever wonder why these Armenians push this nonsense?

Are they secret JOOZ?

[Archie]

There was no Armenian genocide. It is a historical fiction. Do you ever wonder why these Armenians push this nonsense?

No, but I'm wondering now. Are you going to tell us?

[The Angry Optimist]

In the spirit of synthesis, it is clear that the Joozians implanted memories of the Armenian genocide to boost television ratings.

[economist]

"This idea that what HAS happened should be the guide for what OUGHT to happen is nutty McNuts..."

Who did you find arguing for more genocide? As far as I can tell, no one here.

[economist]

AO,
Why must you be so naive? Everyone knows that it was simply caused by TEH JOOZ!

[Art-P.O.G.]

re: Bill

Pleasebesatire, pleasebesatire, pleasebesatire.

[economist]

"Sorry if I read that wrong. But to be clear, any genocides committed by Indians, wrong, and any by us, wrong."

As far as I know, no one here was shooting at/infecting/starving any of my ancestors. That said, if one of them was, I'm going to go kick his geezer ass!

And I wonder: If people are collectively for the crimes of some of their ancestors (or ancestors of people of the same race or ethnicity), does this mean that it cancels out to neutral for me? Or does the white half incur extra negatives for slavery, too? This is a question that bothers me deeply.

OK, not really.

[economist]

Art P.O.G.
If I remember previous postings under "Bill" correctly, it's usually some crazy shit.

[vanya]

it matters historically because the inability of the international community to recognize the Armenian genocide when it occurred emboldened Adolf Hitler on his own program of genocide three decades later

Wow. Who knew it would have been so easy to stop Hitler in his tracks had FDR just made some pronouncement about caring.

The whole genocide squabble is an exercise in mass hypocrisy. Are we, the US, going to forcibly demand that Turkey pay restitution? If not, what have we accomplished? We all get to feel better for calling Turks bad people? And is the Republic of Turkey really responsible for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire? And why is America getting involved in historical crimes committed by non-Americans on non-Americans?

[Art-P.O.G.]

economist,

Bill's post got me thinking about something. There's usually a creepy Anti-Semitic vibe to the Holocaust deniers. But I guess if they denied not only The Holocaust but also the Armenian Genocide, Rwandan Ethnic Cleansing, etc. etc. one could say...well at least they're consistent. :::shrug::: Don't you see...it's what teh Historians want you to believe!!1!

[economsit]

vanya,
I haven't a clue why. I personally think it's pointless, too. And Christophen Hitchens is shite. Why he's popular with Reason writers and contributors I have no idea.

[economist]

One thing I've never understood about anti-Semites being Holocaust deniers: If you hate Jewish people, why deny that a lot of them were killed? I'd assume that for a true anti-Semite, this would be for them what the border fence fantasy is for LoneWhacker.

[economist]

"well they did it to, they just lost in the end, the part that sucks is the losing."

Then again, that's pretty much how the world worked until relatively recently, and still works in many places and situations.

[Art-P.O.G.]

We all get to feel better for calling Turks bad people? And is the Republic of Turkey really responsible for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire?

I don't think anyone blames modern Turkey for what happened 94 years ago. I understand why Turkey is loathe to acknowledge a dark chapter in their history (America has its fair share of dark chapters, too), but it's possible that everyone would be well-served by an acknowledgement and an attempt to move on.

[economist]

In general, I go by this philosophy: Most of human history consists of various groups of people screwing over other groups of people, with some being more successful than others. The ones we remember and tell people of specific groups they should feel really bad about are just the most recent events in a long chain of screw-overs inflicted on them or by them or by certain members of that group on others.

Bottom line: It's complicated and fruitless. Let it go.

[Art-P.O.G.]

economist,

I think it's because the victimization of Jews humanizes them and doesn't jibe with the Anti-Semite's perception of Jews as the all-powerful puppet masters of the reptilians who lord over us.

[Art-P.O.G.]

economist,

there's definitely some merit to that POV (after all, your account of human history is pretty accurate), but I understand why it wouldn't necessarily be as easy to make peace if one actually lost, say, grandparents.

[economist]

"Anti-Semite's perception of Jews as the all-powerful puppet masters of the reptilians who lord over us."

Wait a minute, I thought the Jews were supposed to be controlled by the reptilian Jews from the center of the earth, according to the Anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Though I see your more general point.

[SIV]

Are foreign heads of state of countries who are friendly to us routinely pressured to declare that they believe that the Americans committed genocide with respect to the "Indians"?

Holy Christ, not this shit again.The US government did not commit genocide upon or against Indians.

[economist]

SIV,
I don't think there was necessarily a concerted "Hey, I've got a great idea, let's kill all the Indians!" effort made by the U.S. government. However, it did wipe out, over time, much of the Indian population of the area now encompassed by the U.S. government. Many would call that genocide.

[Anonymous]

One thing I've never understood about anti-Semites being Holocaust deniers: If you hate Jewish people, why deny that a lot of them were killed?

Regarding news of Holocaust revisers, here's something to chew on (emphasis mine):

No informed person disputes that Europe's Jews did, in fact, suffer a great catastrophe during the Second World War. [...]

Jewish-Zionist power is a palpable reality with harmful consequences for America, the Middle East, and the entire global community. In my view, and as I have repeatedly emphasized, the task of exposing and countering this power is a crucially important one.7 In that effort, Holocaust revisionism cannot play a central role. [...]

Setting straight the historical record about the wartime fate of Europe's Jews is a worthy endeavor. But there should be no illusions about its social-political relevance. In the real world struggle against Jewish-Zionist power, Holocaust revisionism has proved to be as much a hindrance as a help.

So now they're admitting that the lie is a means to an end, and appealing to the rhetoric of "global community", as expected by such Leftists and embraced by the mis-named "liberals", which seems to trend toward the whole NWO and anti-sovereignty thing they're always claiming the JOOZ are after.

Cricket, anyone?

[BruceM]

"You allowed to be published cartoons that made us angry and violently homicidal, so how can you be in favor of peace when you make us so mad we have to kill innocent people?"

Religion is based on faith, which is nothing more than the lack of reason. You can't reason with people who don't apply or consider reason in the first place. Or as someone once said, "you can't reason people out of something that they didn't reason themselves into."

To Muslims, "peace" means letting them have their religious ways 100% of the time; it means letting them commit any acts they desire in the name of Islam. Peace means destroying israel, it means destroying america, it means destroying all non-muslims. To a Sunni Muslim peace means killing all Shiite Muslims, and vice versa.

And there's no way of explaining the fallacy of this logic to them. Most Americans can't even understand it, as they make the same basic arguments: America's population is mostly christian, therefore America is a christian nation and therefore the christians in America can do whatever they want in terms of forcing their beliefs and sense of morality onto non-christians in America. That's their "freedom of religion" ... and anyone who tries to get in their way is infringing their freedom of religion and is surely against Christianity, religious freedom, and "peace" (because when the christian majority is pissed off at the non-christian minority, the christians' irrepressable anger precludes peace).

As long as there is religion there will be no peace.

[Art-P.O.G.]

As long as there is religion there will be no peace.

To be sure, your depiction of some religious people is accurate, but you're painting religious people with too broad a brush.

To most Muslims, I don't think "peace" is the way you describe it at all. To extremists? Sure, but that's why they're extremists.

[NO PC]

* Yeah, Indians. I sometimes refer to East Asians as Orientals too. When you're an old fart you can do that.

Considering that geneticists have determined American Indians are of Asian or Pacific Islander descent, "Indian" is a lot closer to the truth than "Native American".

[Matt]

Slippery post, Moynihan. You're a Neo-con, so you appreciate Obama's backpeddling on this issue. Then you point out another world leader doing the same and out comes a little plume of squid ink with the 'not the only one groveling' comment, in essence offering Obama a little cover on the issue while appearing to criticize him. Its small-ball stuff, of course, a sacrifice bunt to advance the runner, but Strauss would approve.

[Bill]

They have a historical hatred of Turks which is not guided by any particular wrong that the Turks have done, but by just a general sense of hatred against them for being Muslims and for ruling over them in the past. The Greek war of independence was an unnecessary fight driven by ethnic pride and hatred more so than any abuses by the Turks. The Greeks and Armenians team up for these causes.

See http://www.meforum.org/748/revisiting-the-armenian-genocide for another look at the "genocide".

[Fellcolor]

Bill - assuming that any of what you say is true, which I don't, nothing that you say disproves the Armenian genocide. Go away now.

[High Every Body]

Of those who were killed, are there even any still alive?

Welcome to Hit & Run VP Biden!

[Taktix?]

Bravo to Northwestern Europe for defending free speech a little. If Turkey has a problem with this, kick 'em the fuck out of Nato, I say!

Actually, I'm in J sub D's Don't-Give-A-Fuck boat...

[Bill]

I'm not going anywhere. This is not established historical fact. It is history and politics by ethnic group, not serious inquiry.