Wollt ihr den Totalen Krieg, Amerika?

Via Andrew Sullivan, Glenn Beck amends previous claims that America is headed towards some hybrid of Soviet communism and squishy Eurosocialism. We are, he now understands, fast becoming a fascist country. ThinkProgress does the yeoman's work of cutting together the best bits:

One caveat, says Beck: "Like it or not, fascism is on the rise" though we are not hurdling towards a Hitlerian future— this despite breathlessly sermonizing ("where have we seen this before?") in front of a montage of Nuremberg rally B-roll. Isn't it curious, Beck observes, that the 1916 "mercury dime" featured the fasces on its reverse side—a Roman symbol of power, adopted in America as a symbol of progressive republicanism. Well no, it isn't interesting at all when one considers that it wasn't until 1919 that Benito Mussolini founded the Italian fascist party and adopted the fasces as its symbol. Besides this error of chronology, that an organization, party, or government agency employs the Roman fasces in a logo isn't evidence of a fascist impulse. If this were the case, Beck would need to expose the Swedish police force as a Scandinavian sturmabteilung. Or expose the Lincoln Memorial as a monument to Franco.

Towards the end of his fascism-is-near screed, Beck reaches out to those on the left that warned of fascism during the Bush years (Call him Naomi!). It is necessary, he advises, to band together those "left and right" who understand the threat. "The people who said fascism is coming under Bush and the people who are saying. You are both right. Fascism is coming!"

Bonus video: Fox News host Shep Smith wonders who, exactly, is surrounding us?

Headline reference.

Comments

[BarrettBrown]

He also seems to believe that the government depicted in Nineteen Eighty-Four was an example of "non-violent fascism," which is to say that he probably hasn't actually read the book.

[FTG]

Or expose the Lincoln Memorial as a mo[nu]ment to Franco.

You mean it isn't??? Because I have seen monuments to tyrant that are more subdued than that piece of American obscenity.

[FTG]

So . . . The US is NOT headed towards Fascism? Or what's the point, that Beck has his chronology wrong (which I knew the moment he mentioned the "Mercury Dime" to Sheldon Richman)?

[Tony]

Irony = right-wing, ubernationalist, xenophobic propagandists and demagogues calling everyone else fascists.

[Gene Berkman]

People commonly use "fascism" as a smear word for a government policy or a politician they don't like.
Fascism can be so freely invoked because it was eclectic and non-ideological, and because Fascist policies were mostly based on policies that were already widely accepted as proper for government.

Nonetheless, the combination of government partnership with big business, limitation of civil liberties and due process, along with a foreign policy based on military interventionism covers all the bases of the regimes of Fascist Italy and the Third Reich.

Government power has not reached the levels of Europe in the 1930s, and probably will be bankrupt before it does. But it is not an idle worry.

[Tony]

the combination of government partnership with big business, limitation of civil liberties and due process, along with a foreign policy based on military interventionism covers all the bases of the regimes of Fascist Italy and the Third Reich.

Which is why it's rich for the flag-waivers and dissent-silencers of the Bush years to be now screaming "fascist."

[FTG]

Irony = right-wing, ubernationalist, xenophobic propagandists and demagogues calling everyone else fascists.

There's nothing ironic about it, Tony - your own ignorance of history is what blocks your judgment. Fascism was and has been always a socialist movement, not a so-called "right wing" affair, plus socialists have not been particularly immune to nationalistic or xenophobic jingoism.

[Kolohe]

I used to think Shep Smith was a tool (esp since my first impression of him was when he got into that road rage incident during the fl recount), but his dry humor has brought me around. The way he slags on Beck is hillarious. And many of the folks at Hot Air hate Smith, so he's likely doing something right.

His has become the best show on Fox News besides Gutfeld's (srly)

[PC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Senate_Seal.svg

I find it fitting that the seal of the US Senate has two of these fasces.

[Jaybird]

Heh. "Flag-waivers".

"Sir, we're here because you don't have a flag."

"Here are my papers."

"Everything seems to be in order."

[Jimmy]

we are not hurdling towards a Hitlerian future

That's a relief. I was always tripping over those dang hurdles.

[PC]

Kolohe | April 2, 2009, 4:58pm | #

He goes after Beck because he knows his replacement is coming. Beck's ratings are through the roof at the 5:00pm time slot, Shep's on thin ice.

[FTG]

He also seems to believe that the government depicted in Nineteen Eighty-Four was an example of "non-violent fascism," which is to say that he probably hasn't actually read the book.

I got that, too - clearly, Glenn does not understand the meaning of the term "Aggression".

I think he means that the Big Brother State came into being through non violent means (i.e. as a way to deal with a crisis), but that's only my take on it - I don't read minds.

[Warty]

It may be rich, but they're correct. Of course, they'll stop saying the f-word as soon as Team R takes power again.

[TrickyVic]

"""It is necessary, he advises, to band together those "left and right" who understand the threat.""""

And shoot them as traitors. Ok, maybe just put them on the no-fly list.

More and more, those who cherish and defend freedom are being considered a threat to the government. That should say something about the government. What other governments consider freedom lovers a national security risk?

[Jesse Walker]

I wish every Fox host would deliver his commentary in front of enormous images of unidentified faces moving in slow motion.

[FTG]

Nonetheless, the combination of government partnership with big business, limitation of civil liberties and due process, along with a foreign policy based on military interventionism covers all the bases of the regimes of Fascist Italy and the Third Reich.

And practically every State since. For instance, Sweden has one of the longest running Fascist regimes in history, complete with an eugenics program and all.

[TrickyVic]

"""Of course, they'll stop saying the f-word as soon as Team R takes power again."""

You mean, stop directing it at the President. They will still direct it at the Ds.

[Naoimi kleenex]

Fascism is coming on my face

and I for one dig it!

[JP]

Really, what I think we're headed for is European social democracy.

[shrike]

There's nothing ironic about it, Tony - your own ignorance of history is what blocks your judgment. Fascism was and has been always a socialist movement, not a so-called "right wing" affair, plus socialists have not been particularly immune to nationalistic or xenophobic jingoism.

You're full of shit, FTG.

Fascism has always been right-wing, thus the need for the idiot Jonah Goldberg to entitle his book 'Liberal fascism' to differ it from regular fascism. An intentional minomer.

The "sticks" refer to the bundle of religion, nationalism, rascism, corporatism, and hatred of science/intellectuals/non-conformists. This is standard 2009 GOP.

Ask the great capitalist Soros - who ran from fascism as a youngster. He saw the same tendencies in the Bush GOP and worked for liberalism.

[I Ain\'t No Racist]

Shooting Coons in Detroit:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090402/METRO08/904020395/To+urban+hunter++n

[Libertymike]

I see Moynihan is serving up another ret(h)read.

[John]

"Nonetheless, along with a foreign policy based on military interventionism covers all the bases of the regimes of Fascist Italy and the Third Reich."

I would take out the commitment to military adventurism. Franco's Italy and Peron's Agrintina were certainly fascist but were not militarily aggressive.

That really brings up the question of what is fascism. I think there are lots of varieties of it. Not all of them involve sticking people in ovens or having a particularly totalitarian state. Certainly, Francos Spain or indeed Musilini's Italy, while oppressive were not terror states like Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.

There are lots of varieties of fascism. All of them are bad, but to varying degrees. Just because you refer to someone as "fascist" doesn't mean that you are accusing them of being a mass murderer. But I think you are accusing them of being someone the combination of government partnership with big business, limitation of civil liberties and due process, and personality cult national leaders, which pretty much describes BO and his followers.

[shrike]

And Glenn Beck is more fascist than anyone in the USA.

He would be the first to station an armed guard in between a woman and her docter.

[Libertymike]

Fascism is not "right wing" or "left wing" or anything else to do with the false right/left paradigm.

[Jaybird]

Fascism is the wrong people telling you how to live.

Progressivism is having the right people in charge of making sure you don't make harmful decisions for yourself or your loved ones (which ought to be everybody).

[vanya]

Fascism was and has been always a socialist movement, not a so-called "right wing" affair

That's just silly. I could just as easily say Stalinism was always really a conservative xenophobic nationalist ideology, a position which many Trotskyites have in fact argued. Any political ideology taken to extremes tends to get to a similar place. In reality "right" and "left" are more a function of who supports a party than what the party's stated program is. If entrenched elites support a party to preserve their position in society then that party is "conservative." Mussolini, Hitler and Franco were all supported by the elites - the Church, the military, and the industrialists - hence they are "conservatives" no matter what their actual programs called for. Stalin was opposed by the Russian elites and he killed as many of them as he could, that makes him a "left winger", even though in fact he was a Russian imperialist at heart. This explains why at various times in history American "conservatives" have been pro-tariff or anti-tariff, pro-imperialist or anti-imperialist, pro-conservation or anti-conservation, etc. And American "liberals" vice-versa. Ideology for most people is just a smoke screen, and they really believe only in what is in their immediate best interest. This explains why libertarians, who actually believe in their ideology, have such a hard time finding a place in American politics.

[Enough About Palin]

"Ask the great capitalist Soros - who ran from fascism as a youngster."

Was that before or after he looted the homes of displaced Jews (for which he says he feels no remorse)?

[Tony]

Fascism was and has been always a socialist movement, not a so-called "right wing" affair

Actually the dictionary definition of fascism places it at the extreme right of right-wing philosophies.

Fascism isn't really associated with a single economic philosophy, though certainly they were against libertarianism.

Socialist (social-democrat) ideas are based on egalitarianism, which is antithetical to fascist ideas.

The relevant comparison between the American right and fascism has to do with its xenophobia, racism, reliance of propaganda, nationalism, aggression, and social darwinism.

The American left, if it can be called that, is pacifist and more-or-less egalitarian. Beck, one of the new demagogues on the right, calling normal American liberals (who aren't socialists, by the way) fascist is ridiculous.

[Quizzy]

Franco's Italy and Peron's Agrintina were certainly fascist but were not militarily aggressive.

Franco Zeffirelli?

[Libertymike]

What about the person who DOES position an armed thug between you and your wallet? Such a person is the very quintessence of a fascist.

[Enough About Palin]

"He goes after Beck because he knows his replacement is coming. Beck's ratings are through the roof at the 5:00pm time slot, Shep's on thin ice."

No. He's slated to replace Gretta.

[Jaybird]

Remember in 1989 when the Wall fell?

I remember journalists talking about the "conservatives" in the Russian government.

A year before, these guys were the Communists in charge of the USSR.

The second the wall fell, they were "conservatives".

[shrike]

Fascism is not "right wing" or "left wing" or anything else to do with the false right/left paradigm.

It is the result of populist fear.

And Glenn Beck is the poster child of populist fear. He is feeding it to the Teabagger Idiot Crowd and they lick it off the floor.

But he is making big bucks.

PT Barnum and George Carlin would be proud. Selling a front-row seat to the American Freak Show is capitalist to the core.

[FTG]

That's just silly. I could just as easily say Stalinism was always really a conservative xenophobic nationalist ideology, a position which many Trotskyites have in fact argued.

Actually, the Trotskyites were correct in their assessment.

[Jonah Goldberg]

"Fascism has always been right-wing, thus the need for the idiot Jonah Goldberg to entitle his book 'Liberal fascism' to differ it from regular fascism. An intentional minomer."

You know nothing of my work, I find your opinoins unfounded and you have no right to reveiw any of my books.

[Pro Libertate]

Of course, all the really good fascists were former socialists, if that means anything.

[Cabeza De Vaca]

"The American left, if it can be called that, is pacifist"

Really? That is news to me.

[TrickyVic]

""""Really, what I think we're headed for is European social democracy."""

I wonder why we gave Iraq an Eurpoean style democracy instead of a constitutional republic. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a new world order item.

Ten years ago or so I was having a conversation about the new world order with a friend. I said that I wasn't a believer. I said in order for a true world government to exist, freedoms and rights would have to be more uniform. Countries with the least freedoms would have to get more and countries with the most would have to give some up. Both would have to move more toward center.

In that scheme of things it would make sense for our federal government to start a powerplay over the states. In a NWO, our states can't have the power they have now. Power needs to be more federalized. All new governments must be of the NWO approved type, maybe Euro-democracy.

[Libertymike]

Xenophobia? mmmmmmm. You mean the deliberate incarceration of hundreds of thousands of Japanese along with all of the attendant rape, torture and murder? Tony, who was the President at the time?

Racism? mmmmmm. You mean the "solid south?" Or do you mean the unions, the eugenecists and fighting Lafolettes? Tony, do you know to what the term "solid south" refers? Do you know whether the unions, the eugenecists and the fighting Lafolettes favored and are/were associated with "progressivism" and the democrat party?

Reliance of [sic] propaganda? mmmm. You mean all of those posters showing Hitler smiling and shaking hands with Uncle Sam or Ronald Reagan or FDR I saw hanging from buildings, everywhere, in Moscow and Leningrad in 1985?

You get the picture?

[Libertymike]

shrlke-

Okay, I'm with ya on Beck. I have never been a fan.

[FTG]

Actually the dictionary definition of fascism places it at the extreme right of right-wing philosophies.

The Webster Dictionary mentions NOTHING about "right wing":
"A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

Exalting the nation (or the state) above the individual sounds pretty socialistic to me.

Fascism isn't really associated with a single economic philosophy, though certainly they were against libertarianism.

They were anti-capitalists as well - Mussolini and his admirers stated it so.

Socialist (social-democrat) ideas are based on egalitarianism, which is antithetical to fascist ideas.

Why would that be "antithetical"? Imposing the State as being above the individual sounds pretty egalitarian to me...

The relevant comparison between the American right and fascism has to do with its xenophobia, racism, reliance of propaganda, nationalism, aggression, and social darwinism.

The American "right" (if you mean the conservatives) have never espoused these ideas. In fact, the Progressives were very cozy to xenophobia (think WWI, the massive expulsion of immigrants during the 30s, the placement of Americans with Japanese ancestry in concentrations camps), propaganda (think Michael Duranty), nationalism (think Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR), and social Darwinism (in the form of the contraceptive movement, the Great Society, forced sterilizations).

The American left, if it can be called that, is pacifist and more-or-less egalitarian.

There is nothing "Pacifist" about being egalitarian, which by definition requires coercion to MAKE people equal.

Beck, one of the new demagogues on the right, calling normal American liberals (who aren't socialists, by the way) fascist is ridiculous.

He wasn't calling "liberals" fascists, Tony - he was saying the government is inching towards fascism.

[TrickyVic]

"""Fascism is the wrong people telling you how to live."""

Really? what determines the wrong people from the right people? I would be more inclined to say fascism is other people telling you how to live.

[anon]

Government running big business, firing CEOs, demonizing private business + profit, openly talking about subsidizing & controlling content of newspapers, senators openly encouraging businessmen to commit suicide and saying they should be handed over to "the marines" (tortured, get it? I think that was Grassley), huge public works spending and takeovers of busniess and banking and finance.... these AREN'T moves towards fascism? And you're dumping on a TV comedian for getting his chronology/symbolism mixed up... Are you freaking kidding me?

[FTG]

Sorry, that's WALTER Duranty

[Pro Libertate]

They may start rounding up capitalists and putting us into camps, soon, I suppose.

[FTG]

And you're dumping on a TV comedian for getting his chronology/symbolism mixed up... Are you freaking kidding me?

That's why I was questioning the point in Moynihan's post. Is Beck wrong when saying the country is moving towards socialism? If not, then what does it matter if he got his chronology wrong? It is enough to make someone eye's roll, but not enough to say he is totally wrong.

[Tony]

Libertymike,

Beck is referring to current American liberals, who would be the first to condemn fascist acts such as the internment of the Japanese. I'm also referring to the current makeup of the American polity. You might as well be saying "Lincoln was a Republican, therefore Republicans are in the party of racial advancement."

[FTG]

Shrike,
And Glenn Beck is the poster child of populist fear. He is feeding it to the Teabagger Idiot Crowd and they lick it off the floor.

Cut the bullcrap and state where is he wrong. Is the country inching towards fascism, or not? If no, why not? If yes, then what's the point in all the insults you are flinging?

[FTG]

Beck is referring to current American liberals,

Was he, Tony? I remember watching the show and clearly hearing him that Bush started this mess.

[...]who would be the first to condemn fascist acts such as the internment of the Japanese.

They would because it was such an obvious embarrassing episode that only a neo-con shill like Michelle Malkin could dare to defend. But liberals have accepted pretty God-awful affairs, like the fact that the US bombed a country that did not commit aggression against the States, and also destabilized the area by bringing in Muslim terrorists from abroad, all while the liberals were cheering - I am talking about Serbia and Bosnia.

[ChicagoTom]

Government running big business, firing CEOs, demonizing private business + profit,

Wait wait wait....

When said big business is DEMANDING that the government bail them out (as both Wall Street did and the Auto Industry did) and step in and right the ship, the government is fascist for demanding that said business present a plan showing viability and changing the leadership culture that got them into this point?

Really?

Which part of capitalism talks about government bailouts of bankrupt / insolvent companies?

If you go to a bank to get money for a business, don't they demand to see a business plan, and do some due diligence to protect their investment and make sure your business is viable?

Shouldn't the government do the same things?

It's one thing to say that the government should not be bailing out the capitalists, but to scream fascism when the government puts conditions on giving that money is pretty stupid.

I don't see the government telling Ford what to do. Why is that? Cuz Ford didn't come hat in hand looking to suckle at the taxpayers teat.

[Orange Line Special]

Note to self: the Kochtopus fears GlennBeck. +1 for Beck!

What's extra funny about this is that the site Moynihan gives a shout out to is part of the Center for American Progress, which is closely linked to the BHO admin. CAP is incredibly easy to criticize since they and TP keep making juvenile mistakes. They're also much more worthy of being criticized due to their political connections, including to Soros.

Who is Michael Moynihan criticizing again? Yes, the one with the least amount of power.

Gosh, those Beltway cocktail party invites must be printed on 24k gold or something.

[Anonymous]

Calling fascism something other than socialism is Stalin's party line: they took control of companies, with an Obamaesque corpratist flair, instead of liquidating them.

The reason a distinction is drawn is to fool the proles into thinking the only State configurations available are socialism and socialism. I'm glad everyone here realizes that those are the only viable choices. Now we can get back to furthering beloved Il Bruce's corporate empire.

[Warty]

Shut the fuck up, Lonewacko.

[ChicagoTom]

Cut the bullcrap and state where is he wrong. Is the country inching towards fascism, or not?

Sure it has been for the last 8 years.

But Beck wasn't screaming then. Only since Obama took over is he worried about Fascism. And what the Obama admin is currently doing to try and right the economic ship (even though I don't think it will work) is not really anywhere near as worrisome as PATRIOT act, National Security Letters and gag orders, domestic wiretapping, suppressing dissent, Free Speech Zones.

You know who needs to cut the crap? The people who only get their panties in a bunch when they see the government putting conditions on BAILOUT funds.

Get some fucking perspective.

[Warty]

Sure it has been for the last 8 years.

You're off by an order of magnitude.

[ChicagoTom]

they took control of companies, with an Obamaesque corpratist flair, instead of liquidating them.

How does one make the logical jump from "Company X ask government for money after being run into the ground" to "the government is taking control of company X"

If anything, company X was a willing participant looking for a suitor. And the government is probably giving company X a better deal then the market would.

it's not like the government is forcefully taking control of these companies...these companies are begging for tax dollars to stay afloat.

[FTG]

When said big business is DEMANDING that the government bail them out

They cannot demand, they can only ask.

(as both Wall Street did and the Auto Industry did) and step in and right the ship, the government is fascist for demanding that said business present a plan showing viability and changing the leadership culture that got them into this point?

Yes, it is fascistic - for the simple reason that the government had NO authority under the Constitution to give away money to private enterprises. And, you forget, the government (through the FDIC and the SEC) is now pressuring SOUND companies and banks to ACCEPT bailout money in exchange of control of the company, without these companies having asked for the money.

[zoltan]

When has the country not been moving toward fascism? Just because it isn't a bunch of hairy hippies yelling about it doesn't make it not true.

[John]

I've always thought that Obama was more of a fascist than a socialist, but I think I'll stop saying that after seeing this because I in no way want to be associated with Glen Beck. These populist "libertarians" like Beck and the teabag guy are really starting to piss me off. They rail against big government but tend to be nationalistic and xenophobic themselves. It's really sad that this is the direction the opposition to Obama is taking.

[ChicagoTom]

They cannot demand, they can only ask.

Ok, when they stop asking and are forced to do something, then wake me -- til then STFU.

[No Name Guy]

Something for folks who have the time:

Read "Stalin in Power: the revolution from above" by Tucker.

An interesting look at the cult of personality that surrounded the guy. Also goes into how he'd alternatively use then (ahem) dispose of a particular group of supporters, all to consolodate power around himself.

Watch yourself libs - when BO is done using you to get more power, you'll get kicked to the curb.

[FTG]

ChicagoTom,
But Beck wasn't screaming then.

Yes, he was! I have seen his show when he was in CNN since 2007, and he was already warning about government control. However, the level of intrusiveness was not as obscenely big as it is now.

Only since Obama took over is he worried about Fascism.

You mean since Il Duce??? Noooooo.

And what the Obama admin is currently doing to try and right the economic ship (even though I don't think it will work) is not really anywhere near as worrisome as PATRIOT act, National Security Letters and gag orders, domestic wiretapping, suppressing dissent, Free Speech Zones.

You must have a very happy wallet or some sort of personal problem with money, because it IS definitively VERY WORRISOME to ME, even being against the Patriot Act and the surveillance state of Dub-ya.

[FTG]

These populist "libertarians" like Beck and the teabag guy are really starting to piss me off.

He's not a true libertarian - he is still too cozy with the fraudulent "War on Terror" to be a libertarian. However, there is not one else, besides him, on TV, exposing these things about Il Duce and his government. MSNBC anchors have too much of a man-crush with Our Fearless Leader, Automotive Expert and Great Financier, Il Duce, and so do many in other stations. And I cannot stand Lou Dobbs or O'Reilly.

[Cabeza De Vaca]

No Name Guy,

I read Young Stalin & Stalin In The Court Of The Red Czar by Simon Sebag Montefiore a few months ago. Two really good books about a brilliantly evil man. It was amazing at how good he was at playing people to his advantage.

[MNG]

My problem with Beck is not that he is a hack, which he is. It's that he's such an incredibly dumb one. I think he makes Sean Hannity look like a very intelligent man.

Colbert did a hilarious bit on Beck the other night. Beck was working up fake tears exorciating "them" that are taking the nation from "us", but don't worry he said "we" surround them and just need to wake up and the kicker was when he tried to get the waterworks going he said "I'm sorry, it's just that I love my country SO much..." I've seen hillbilly preachers that were not that dumb.

I mean, have you ever read this guys book "The Christmas Sweater?" He's like a retarded version of Paul Harvey.

[MNG]

"However, there is not one else, besides him, on TV, exposing these things about Il Duce and his government."

If you took all the dumb and false things that FTG says with confidence and had them march in a parade it would look like the old Soviet May Day Parades.

There are all kinds of people criticizing Obama on tv. For example, there is this network called "Fox."

This is part of what gets me about people whining about fascism (either under Bush or Obama). One proof we are not in any danger of that is that no one saying that has even the smallest fear that they are going to get the castor oil treatment or concentration camps. In fact, they are pretty sure they are not going to get any problem at all from denouncing either dude.

[ChicagoTom]

Yes, he was! I have seen his show when he was in CNN since 2007, and he was already warning about government control. However, the level of intrusiveness was not as obscenely big as it is now.

Really, all they way back to 2007 you say ? Well then Beck must have been one of the first anti-bush people then.

You must have a very happy wallet or some sort of personal problem with money, because it IS definitively VERY WORRISOME to ME, even being against the Patriot Act and the surveillance state of Dub-ya.

Again, please explain how the government exerting control over companies that come hat in hand asking for public monies is a problem?

Granted the government should tell them to pound sand, but once they decided to bail them out, should there have been no conditions/strings? Is that what you are arguing?

Why isn't the government taking control of Ford? or is it just a matter of time?!

Again, I think you really need to get some perspective.

[Cabeza De Vaca]

"My problem with Beck is not that he is a hack, which he is. It's that he's such an incredibly dumb one. I think he makes Sean Hannity look like a very intelligent man.

I wouldn't go that far MNG, I don't think anyone could make Hannity look intelligent.

[Libertymike]

Cabeza De Vaca-

I agree. I read the latter of the two books and I came away with even more respect for Stalin's ability to manipulate and play everybody from Molotov to Khruschev.

THE COMPANIES ASKED FOR IT!

WE ARE IN A DEPRESSION!

THE GOVERNMENT NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING!

THE PEOPLE RESPONDED TO A POPULIST LEADER!

THE COMMUNISTS KNOW THOSE SOCIALISTS ARE RIGHT-WING!

THAT HITLER CHAP HAD SOME GOOD IDEAS!

[MNG]

Dudes, have some fun with Glenn Beck.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/223279/march-31-2009/the-10-31-project

[Ray Butler]

Libertymike, you're a moron.

[MNG]

Tom
He would make vague denouncements about government, but he was an apologist for Bush.

If FTG has some proof of Beck calling Bush by name on his many unlibertarian shenanigans, let him bring it or shut up.

[Libertymike]

MNG-

Come on. Do you really think that the best and most accurate way to measure the presence, reach and extent of fascism is by limiting such an exercise to your perceptions of whether people who criticize BO fear fatal or FEMA prison camp retribution?

[MNG]

"You must have a very happy wallet or some sort of personal problem with money"

I like money. I'll enjoy the extra money in my paycheck due to Obama's tax credit. And since I don't smoke nor make $250,000 a year (and neither does anyone on this thread) I have no beef with him as I have yet to see him take any of my money in excess of what was the case before him.

[FTG]

ChicagoTom,
Again, please explain how the government exerting control over companies that come hat in hand asking for public monies is a problem?

The 14 Trillion dollar deficit is irrelevant to you? The increase in the money supply, that's not worrisome? Again, you must have some sort of personal problem with money if you're so cavalier about what Il Duce is doing.

Why isn't the government taking control of Ford? or is it just a matter of time?

Let's see what happens, CT.

[Libertymike]

I guess I must have hurt Ray's feelings somewhere along the line. I'm sorry Ray.

[MNG]

Libertymike
What people don't like about fascism is the brutal repression. And there just was none under Bush and none now under Obama.

This is why noone remembers FDR as a "fascist" even though he had corporatist agencies. If that was fascism then people wouldn't sweat it.

Be honest, you're not scared in the slightest to say Obama sucks. Some fascism that is!

[Libertymike]

MNG-

Well, since Joe has left us, you might be right.

[FTG]

MNG,
What people don't like about fascism is the brutal repression. And there just was none under Bush and none now under Obama.

That's because the US has the nice brand of fascism, MNG.

This is why none remembers FDR as a "fascist" even though he had corporatist agencies. If that was fascism then people wouldn't sweat it.

You make the mistake of thinking that it takes a repressive beast to make a fascist state. However, FDR's regime was quite brutal in the way they implemented the different programs, especially the AAA and the NRA. Wilson's regime was actually very physical during WWI. Placing Americans of Japanese ancestry in concentration camps was not a demonstration of love.

[MNG]

People make this argument:
The fascists wanted an active, vigorous government and had corporatism.
The Progressives wanted an active, vigorous government and had corporatism.
Therefore, fascism=Progressivism

That's incorrect thinking. There are also a great deal of differences between the two.

But more importantly what people remember as so terrible about fascism was the brutal, awful repression. Crushing dissent and opposition. Murdering folks based on arbitrary notions like race and ethnicity. Making war on their neighbors. Amazingly arbitrary deprivation of property on a mass scale without due process.

And let's face it, that is not going on here now or under Bush either. I couldn't stand Bush and Obama is certainly not my favorite Democrat (I opposed him rather vigorously in the primaries, remember?).

[FTG]

MNG,
I like money. I'll enjoy the extra money in my paycheck due to [Il Duce's] tax credit.

Enjoy it while you can.

And since I don't smoke nor make $250,000 a year (and neither does anyone on this thread) I have no beef with him as I have yet to see him take any of my money in excess of what was the case before him.

Ah, the naivete... Every time I've heard a politician saying he will stick it to the rich, everybody else ends up in the skewer. That is how the government works, and Il Duce will not be any different, only more odious.

[Anonymous]

That's incorrect thinking. There are also a great deal of differences between the two.

Indeed, progressives-toward-communism will argue strenuously that fascists aren't socialist, whereas the fascists take the tact that communists aren't populist enough.

It's a brilliant duology, each regime feeding the next.

[MNG]

"You make the mistake of thinking that it takes a repressive beast to make a fascist state."

No, I make the correct assumption that it is that quality that makes the term "fascism" a perjorative one. Not the corporatism or concern for active government. That's why no sane person considers Sweden some tyrannical fascist dictatorship.

"However, FDR's regime was quite brutal in the way they implemented the different programs, especially the AAA and the NRA."

Yeah, I can remember reading of how they lined up business owners and shot them in the back of the head and made Republicans drink castor oil until they expired...

"Wilson's regime was actually very physical during WWI."

Wilson lived in a very conservative time. Even the "liberals" were quite conservative by our standards back then. But even he did not put whole ethnic groups into concentration camps or have Charles Evans Hughes killed....

"Placing Americans of Japanese ancestry in concentration camps was not a demonstration of love."

I'm glad you brought up that example, the strongest point you could possibly make, but one that is actually not very strong. That was a disgusting thing, yes, but not very analogous to what the SS was doing. The Japanese-Americans were interned in a certain region after several crushing defeats and a genuine fear of Japanese invasion of the West Coast. Japanese Americans were not singled out as "racially inferior" and to "be eliminated" and their camps were nothing like the SS camps.

[FTG]

People make this argument:
The fascists wanted an active, vigorous government and had corporatism.
The Progressives wanted an active, vigorous government and had corporatism.
Therefore, fascism=Progressivism

That's incorrect thinking. There are also a great deal of differences between the two.

Like the name: Progressivism has 13 letters whereas Fascism has only 7. That's a huge difference.

But more importantly what people remember as so terrible about fascism was the brutal, awful repression. Crushing dissent and opposition. Murdering folks based on arbitrary notions like race and ethnicity.

Fascist Italy did not murder people on notions of race nor ethnicity. Neither did other fascist regimes like the Swedes, who were fascist to the core (still are).

Making war on their neighbors.

Franco's Spain did not make war to their neighbors, actually enjoying peace for 40 years.

Amazingly arbitrary deprivation of property on a mass scale without due process.

Eminent Domain, anyone?

[Libertymike]

MNG-

Me, personally, no. Then again, I have always delighted in sticking it to authority. Even private sector authority.

[wingnutx]

Keith Olbermann may have to sue Beck for stealing his intellectual property

[MNG]

"progressives-towards-communism"

You guys are always a trip...
You see, progressives must be secret communists!

And the only difference between fascists and communists is the former come off as more populist...

Can I recommend the nearest community college anon?

[Ed Crane]

Oh, excuse me....I thought I was on a libertarian site. I must have landed on Daily Kos by mistake.

[MNG]

"Amazingly arbitrary deprivation of property on a mass scale without due process.

Eminent Domain, anyone?"

You're laughable FTG. When I think of a fascist dictatorship I think of a government that takes land after proving a public purpose, allows suit to contest the finding, and has to award just compensation when doing so. The horror!

"Neither did other fascist regimes like the Swedes, who were fascist to the core (still are)."

See, this is all you need Libertymike. If the Swedes were and are fascists, then fascism per se must not be such a horrible thing. There must be good fascist nations (like Sweden, which almost no one thinks is some tyrannical hellhole) and bad ones (like Mussolini's Italy), just like there are good democracies (like the US) and bad ones (like Iran).

[MNG]

Hey Ed, don't piss your pants immediately when seeing a non-libertarian's viewpoint on a libertarian site. Show some backbone chief.

I'm the only one making non-libertarian arguments (or am I, the thread comes from Moynihan's post that to say we are living in a fascist state is nutty), and there have been in the past half hour alone 4-6 people arguing against me, and you come in to say "waaah, I thought this was a libertarian site, what's this guy doing here."

Jeez, put a pad on your pussy and get over it.

[FTG]

No, I make the correct assumption that it is that quality that makes the term "fascism" a perjorative one. Not the corporatism or concern for active government. That's why no sane person considers Sweden some tyrannical fascist dictatorship.

It's not a tyrannical dictatorship, MNG, but it is a fascist state nevertheless. Just because they are not ruled by a strong man does not mean their government acts as if the state is above the individual.

Yeah, I can remember reading of how they lined up business owners and shot them in the back of the head and made Republicans drink castor oil until they expired...

FDR's government did not need to shoot anybody - they just prosecuted them under unconstitutional statutes.

Wilson lived in a very conservative time. Even the "liberals" were quite conservative by our standards back then.

Uh, what the hell are you talking about? The Conservatives of that era were the Classical Liberals which were non interventionists. Instead, Wilson was very pro-war, pro-state. That sounds not very conservative to me.

But even he did not put whole ethnic groups into concentration camps or have Charles Evans Hughes killed...

He DID incarcerate people opposed to the war, political rivals and journalists, imposed rigurous restrictions on the printed media. That does not sound very liberal to me - instead, sounds fascistic.

I'm glad you brought up that example, the strongest point you could possibly make, but one that is actually not very strong. That was a disgusting thing, yes, but not very analogous to what the SS was doing.

Oh, so it is a matter of degree - as long as they were NOT massacred, it becomes excusable.

The Japanese-Americans were interned in a certain region after several crushing defeats and a genuine fear of Japanese invasion of the West Coast.

Yeah, well, "Any excuse will serve the tyrant" - Aesop.

Japanese Americans were not singled out as "racially inferior" and to "be eliminated" and their camps were nothing like the SS camps.

So? Again, it is not a matter of degree. I am sure the Americans of Japanese ancestry found little consolation on the fact that they were not being murdered, just contained away from their homes, property and jobs.

And again, FDR was no liberty-lover. He was not a brutal fascist, just a more likeable fascist.

[Libertymike]

MNG-

Your last paragraph in your 6:51 post appears to breezily dismiss the ugly horrors endured by hundreds of thousands of japanese. Perhaps you were not thinking about all of the brutal beatings and rapes suffered by those incarcerated. Perhaps you are not cognizant of the RACIAL HATRED OF JAPANESE that permeated the land in the 1940s-

[FTG]

"Just because they are not ruled by a strong man does not mean their government acts as if the state is not above the individual."

There, corrected it.

[MNG\'s Bathroom Cabinet]

"Jeez, put a pad on your pussy and get over it."

Perhaps you should loan him one of yours, MNG. You certainly fly off the handle easy enough. We figure you must be on the rag.

[FTG]

MNG
You're laughable FTG. When I think of a fascist dictatorship I think of a government that takes land after proving a public purpose, allows suit to contest the finding, and has to award just compensation when doing so. The horror!

The horror appears when the State "proves" a public purpose which, in fact, cannot be proved, to take someone's land, and then allows suit to contest the ruling on a court provided by the State that rules in favor of the State, and awards the "just" compensation that the State sees fit. Or, it can just do away with the awkwardness and simply control the land through "environmental" rules, like the Wetland Protection Act.

Is the above not putting the State above the individual? Or am I missing something, MNG?

[MNG]

Libertymike
As I said it was pretty horrible, and yes the stupid tribalism that was manifested in the U.S. after Japan attacked was deplorable.

My point is how different the internment was from the SS concentration camps. The former was done at a time when the nation that ethnic group was from seemed unstoppable and bent on invading the West Coast, was done on a local scale, and was not nearly as horrible as the SS camps, which were done to eliminate a group not on the grounds of imminent invasion, were executed across the nation, and made an actual try to murder them all and steal all their property.

[MNG]

The Japs need a kotex too.

[MNG]

"We figure you must be on the rag."

What are the we, your local circle jerk?
Get bent.

[MNG]

I thought about responding to FTG's points, but realized he didn't understand my 6:57 post which refuted them all.

[Libertymike]

MNG-

To be honest, I do not know enough about the Swedes to offer anything of value. Not a cop out-just the truth.

[E. V.]

Shut up, jukeboxgrad.

[MNG]

You could take a lesson or two from Olbermann, Wingnutx. He's light years beyond Beck.

[MNG]

Typical, LibertyMike. Talking without knowing shit. You guys are always bitching and moaning on here, but as soon as anyone has a valid argument, you opt out.

[MNG]

Oh, boy, a spoofer.

For what its worth I can't imagine why anyone would watch a post-Espn Olberman.

But, like Hannity, he's still better than Beck. That guy is a lizard or something.

[MNG]

7:16 a spoofer too LM, but you know that from years of interacting with me on H&R. Don't worry, teenagers often have strict bed times and so these guys will drop off soon.

Sadly, as I've said before, my daughter comes down to watch cartoons from 8-8:30 so soon will I.

[Libertymike]

MNG and FTG-

MNG, I don't think you are willing to even consider, listen, etc. to the entirety of FTG's points.

IMO, FTG's 7:04 post captures an everday American reality that bottom lines with thousands of incidents of police harassment resulting in broken bones, intimidation, assualt, battery, death, incarceration for drug possession/distribution, prostitution and "resisting" arrest, misery, lives shattered, lives lost, billions of dollars misallocated, homes destroyed and dogs shot.

How about the people brave enough to challenge the IRS and the income tax? Tax "protesters" who are in jail would have something to tell you MNG about fascism. Using force to take property from another may not be so bad to you, but, jailing people because they express the opinion that the process is fraudulent must strike you as a reality that is far closer to fascism than a free society.

People who challenge authority have, historically, been subjected to the most repressive of reactions by the powers that be in this country. In fact, the preceding assertion is unimpeachable.

[Libertymike]

MNG-

How many Ryan Moats (the Texans' running back stopped and threatened by the Dallas cop) type incidents do you think take place, everyday, in America?

[Hazel Meade]

We're inching towards fascism in the sense that power is being consolidated in the hands of the executive.

Both TARP and EESA were huge steps in that direction, by giving the executive branch the power to aribitrarily take over businesses, fire their CEOs, and funnel money to (basically) whomever the President feels like. These may be "emergency" powers, but this "emergency" may go on for quite a while.

This is, of course, on top of the Obama administration's continuation of the Bush policies on wiretapping and secrecy, etc.

Maybe that's not *exactly* facism - lacking the essential components of militant nationalism. Perhaps "authoritarian populism" would be a better term.

[JP]

I can't stand to watch Beck on television (something about his overfed frat-boy face really bugs me). But his radio show is actually pretty entertaining, as something to listen to while driving around. I find him much more fun to listen to than that old windbag Limbaugh.

[SomeGuy]

Perhaps we're not "hurdling towards a Hitlerian future" but instead "hurtling" toward one? There's fewer barriers that way.

[MNG]

"essential components of militant nationalism"

If you add the lawless repression of dissent and opposition, then you've got it. Good show, as usual Hazel. Obama lacks, heck even Bush lacks the type of militant nationalism that Mussolini and Hitler demonstrated. And dissent and repression were punished by beatings and death in the latter, but are allowed in the former.

Libertymike
Police abuse of powers and such are terrible (remember, I'm the guy who CONSISTENTLY on H&R has called for civilian review boards with real power everywhere in the U.S.) and the IRS abuses are terrible, my point is that any term that includes both contemporary U.S., Sweden and Hitler's Germany as "the same thing" is overbroad, to say the least...

[MNG]

"We're inching towards fascism in the sense that power is being consolidated in the hands of the executive."

But this is bad. It's what I am talking about. Under this any move towards monarchism is "fascism."

Fascism has infinite definitions and seems to mean "something I do not like!"

[TrickyVic]

"""I don't see the government telling Ford what to do. Why is that? Cuz Ford didn't come hat in hand looking to suckle at the taxpayers teat.""""

Exactly. I laugh when people cry socialism and compare it to Chavez. The governemnt didn't seize GM. GM willing entered into the agreement, but they didn't have to. The choice was their's. The oil companies in Venezuela didn't have a choice, they were seized. That's a huge difference that shouldn't be too tough to understand.

I don't believe in the bailout. I'd like to see the terms become so ugly that no buisness would agree to them. It takes two to play.

[TrickyVic]

""""Fascism has infinite definitions and seems to mean "something I do not like!""""

You can't have 2 minutes hate without something to hate.

[hmm]

It's still a cable news show. Hosted by an admitted nut. Looking to get ratings. April 1st was the last day of sweeps. Fastest growing ratings on the boob tube. Hyperbole equals ratings.

The news. We care when it matters, to us.

Or for fox both local and cable. The news. You make it we break it. (they have a breaking news fetish)

[Hazel Meade]

MNG,

As I said, a better term might be "authoritarian populism".

Strong central government. Dominant executive branch. Cult of personality around the leader.

It fits the bill.

And I'm not sure that "authoritarian populism" is all that far from "facism". Wait an election cycle or two.

[Pi Guy]

I think that we're confusing economics and government.

Socialism is a form of economy. Feudalism begets capitalism which begets socialism which then begets communism. Then the rich and poor are divided by a wide margin and we're back to feudalism. And so it goes all over again.

Fascism is form of governing. Even without the use of force, its aim is to suppress the voices of those oppose the government. It's rather the antithesis of democracy, where the governed are presumed to have a voice and a vote in the established policies.

Capitalism and democracy tend to work well together. Likewise, fascism and economies that are controlled by the government, like socialism and communism, tend to go together. But if a supposedly democratic government steps into the arena of economics, establishing socialistic policies that the people do not want, there will be a tendency for the government to have to enforce those policies against the will of the people, suppressing the voices of those who are opposed, by force, if necessary.

Margaret Thatcher once said, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." And when the people go broke supporting government policies that they don't support, there will be opposition.

And so it goes all over again.

[Anonymous]

Then the rich and poor are divided by a wide margin and we're back to feudalism. And so it goes all over again.

And abiding by that cycle is called Marxism.

[Tony]

Libertarians afraid of the oppression lurking around every corner? No way!

[Hazel Meade]

Libertarians afraid of the oppression lurking around every corner? No way!

OMG! Corporations! Racism! COINTELPRO!

[JB]

Not all that much difference between fascism and communism. They are both philosophies of the hyper-state and only a complete retard could even try to argue that Obama is not moving the US more in that direction.

I don't really care what Beck calls Obama, but I'm glad he is at least calling him something (unlike most of the MSM which is quivering with pleasure just thinking about the tingles that Obama sends down their legs).

I would prefer that he fling poo or tea bags at Obama, but I'll settle for calling him names.

[threeofclubs]

Making war on their neighbors.

Franco's Spain did not make war to their neighbors, actually enjoying peace for 40 years.

who were they going to make war on?
maybe an alliance with portugal to reconquer the new World?

[Brett Stevens]

None of these people even understand what fascism is.

They have two modes: more-rights and less-rights.

If you ever do anything that might be less-rights, they panic and throw dung at you.

If they read Plato's Republic, they'd know that tyranny is the state that comes after democracy in a civilization's life cycle.

It's coming. So pick good authoritarian leaders, because authoritarianism is inevitable.

[Marketeer]

In a free market system, which is what we are supposed to have, businesses are the players, and gov't is the referee. Once the referee joins a team, the game is over, and the referee need to be removed, by force.

[Jon H]

I was expecting wingnut-birthers to pick up on the bundle-of-rods motif decorating the front top edge of the lectern Obama spoke at when he gave the not-quite-a-state-of-the-union.

[R C Dean]

Which is why it's rich for the flag-waivers and dissent-silencers of the Bush years to be now screaming "fascist."

RC'z Law award-winner of the month.

And who were the "dissent-silencers"? I seem to recall an unending festival of dissent during the Bush years. Was anyone silenced? If not, then there couldn't have been any dissent-"silencers", could there?

Or is this more lefty preening about how brave they are to hold opinions that others might disagree with, out loud?

[R C Dean]

Franco's Spain did not make war to their neighbors, actually enjoying peace for 40 years.

who were they going to make war on?

France seems to be a popular choice.

[Hazel Meade]

Obama isn't really like Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin.

He's really more like Julius Ceasar. Ceasar was a 'man of the people'. He had the mob on his side and a cult of personality. He spent a lot of money on public works in Rome. He was also Pontifex Maximus, and some people think of Obama as a religious messiah.

[vanya]

ome people think of Obama as a religious messiah.

Can you name one person who really thinks that?

And no one thought of Caesar as a messiah - first of all that was a Jewish concept that spread to the West with Christianity, long after Caesar was dead, and, secondly,pontifex maximus was more a political office in those days. It didn't have the aura of holiness it does these days. But even Benedict, who actually is pontifex maximus today, is not viewed as a "messiah" even by most Catholics.

[Marketeer]

Can you name one person who really thinks that?

All of MSNBC

[Anonymous]

Can you name one person who really thinks that?

Which makes "we are the ones we've been waiting for" more frightening: messianic cult, or hard-line Marxism?

[Anonymous2]

Which makes "we are the ones we've been waiting for" more frightening: messianic cult, or hard-line Marxism?

Both??

[ChicagoTom]

All of MSNBC

3 Hours of monring Joe on MSNBC prove this staement complete bullshit.

MSNBC IS LIBERAL!!! They show 3 HOURS to Joe Scarborough and 2 hours to Olbermann/Maddow. That is obviously a liberal bias!@!!@#!!11111

[JB]

3 Hours of monring Joe on MSNBC prove this staement complete bullshit.

You watched this for 3 hours and didn't slit your throat? I commend you sir.

[JD]

Obama as religious messiah - not literally, I suppose, but when you see stuff like this:
http://www.equineaddicts.com/the-mountain-barack-obama-t-shirt-he-is-the-one.asp
or this
http://iamchriscollins.com/badpaintingsofbarackobama/images//4.jpg
or see people naming their restaurants after him, then yeah, it does look like there's a slightly unhealthy level of hero-worship.

[Hazel Meade]

vanya, your humor detector seems to be defective this morning.

[Tony]

R C Dean,

I don't know what reality you were living during the Bush years, but I recall a country not inching but lurching toward fascism down as many different avenues Dick Cheney could navigate.

Obama was elected mostly because a large majority didn't like that so much. And they didn't like the economic policies that distributed the wealth they created to Wall Street gamesters only to see the entire economy collapse as a result.

If doing what the people asked him to do and axing many of the Bush policies that didn't merely analogize to fascist actions but WERE fascist actions is fascism, then I really want some of what you're smoking.

[Anonymous]

If doing what the people asked him to do and axing many of the Bush policies that didn't merely analogize to fascist actions but WERE fascist actions

"Axing" does not mean "growing."

[Mr. Chartreuse]

Franco's Spain did not make war to their neighbors, actually enjoying peace for 40 years.

who were they going to make war on

Hitler had wanted Franco to let his troops pass through Spain in order to allow for an assault on Gibraltar. So, Franco would have been fighting against the Allies (and IIRC, Spain sent a division to fight with the Germans against the Soviets).