Williamson to "Review the Evidence," Tell Historians if Holocaust Actually Happened

Bishop Richard Williamson, the Holocaust-denying Catholic crackpot whose excommunication was recently reversed by the Vatican, tells Der Spiegel that he has ordered a book by former French "revisionist" Jean-Claude Pressac, who later recanted his gas chamber denials, and will "review the historical evidence once again."

It is amusing to think of a nutter like Williamson "reviewing" historical data on the Holocaust, a subject that has been covered in great depth by historians like Christopher Browning, Saul Friedlander, Raul Hilberg, and Hans Mommsen, all of whom are slightly more qualified to render judgement on the subject. Last week, as the Williamson controversy began to envelope Pope Benedict, I took a look at the website of Hitlerphilic historian David Irving, who, unsurprisingly, wrote in favor of Williamson, adding that the recently recommunicated bishop had attended a garden party at his London Wolfshanze. Irving posted a photo of Williamson chatting with guests (presumably about his hobby of measuring Jewish skulls), which appears to have been removed from the site. Too late for Williamson, though—Irving confirmed that he was a personal friend in an interview with the Catholic newspaper The Tablet. So it seems clear that this isn't some passive denier of the Holocaust, influenced by a "Loose Change"-like YouTube video, but rather a committed revisionist who is chummy with Irving, the Obersturmbannführer of the fake historians.

A bad week for anti-Semites in England, it seems. According to this account in the Evening Standard, a Foreign Office employee was arrested after a meldown at his local gym, during which he unloaded on the "fucking Israelis" and "fucking Jews." Hardly surprising that such a person works in the Foreign Office, but it serves as a reminder that, in England, if one is a boorish, racist oaf, one can wind up in prison on a "hate crimes" offense.

Also, in the course of collecting links for this post, I came across a story of Danish schools banning Jewish students (via The Atlantic, but also discussed in this column from Spiked Online's Frank Furedi) and Ian Buruma on the persistance of anti-Jewish attitudes in Asia.  Enjoy.

Comments

[Elemenope]

"Have no fear, Underzog will soon be here to ruin your thread!"

[Doctor C]

Mike, I think you meant to type "boorish" instead of "boarish."

[MNG]

"It is amusing to think of a nutter like Williamson "reviewing" historical data on the Holocaust, a subject that has been covered in great depth by historians like Christopher Browning, Saul Friedlander, Raul Hilberg, and Hans Mommsen, all of whom are slightly more qualified to render judgement on the subject."

Uhh, how come I could not help but think of the global warming debates on this thread when I read this?

[Noions]

I like the Jews but Israel can suck my nut.

[MNG]

LMNOP
Maybe Underzog and Mad Max, a cage match?

[Pro Libertate]

MNG,

I think there's a big difference between people denying that the Holocaust happened--an event with almost literally mountains of evidence--and people who are skeptical about some aspects of climate science.

Now it is more akin to the evolution vs. Creationism debate, where the support for evolution is similarly overwhelming.

[stuartl]

It turns out banning Jewish kids from some Danish schools is okay -- it is for the children: "Other headmasters have now come forth to support Nielsen's position, adding that they are putting the child's safety first."

Also, since Jewish kids are only safe in schools with barbed wire fences, "Rabbi Bent Lexner called the headmasters' concern 'theoretical. In reality, Jewish parents would never try to enrol their child in those schools.'"

Does Denmark even realize there is a problem?

[Episiarch]

Oy, why do the papists have to hate the hebes so much?

[MNG]

Pro L
I think you are right that the consensus on global warming does not equal holocaust studies. But the principle is the same: Moynihan is saying that he thinks it's funny for someone like Williamson (an educated man but an amateur historian) to think he may investigate the historical record and possibly disprove what trained historian experts have; everyday here on H&R we have amateur folks who claim that by their own personal investigations into the data on climate and such that they have concluded that the dozens of scientific professional associations representing thousands of scientists are wrong.

[EJM]

FP's Joshua Keating may have been even harder on Williamson...

How nice that Williamson has suddenly realized that "many honest and intelligent people" disagree with him about this. I can imagine him anxiously checking his mailbox for that Amazon package so he can decide for himself whether one of the most well-documented and historically significant events of the twentieth century actually happened. The Holocaust [occurred] over 60 years ago. Williamson made his controversial comments in the 1980s. He's almost 70 years old. He really hasn't had time to look into this until now?

I feel like if I suddenly decided that, say, the Great Depression or the moon landing had never actually happened, I'd probably want to at least do some follow-up Googling at some point just to be sure.

Never mind his anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories. Does the Vatican really want to put someone this stupid back in a position of authority?

Separately (since this is some sort of round-up thread), 11 people have now been arrested over the recent synagogue attack in Venezuela--apparently including eight police officers.

[MNG]

Epi

The Hebrew Hammer is coming.

And the Catholic Crusader.

Attention, all K-Mart shoppers, there are Jews in Aisle 12.

[Ramsey]

Well, maybe if the jews weren't constantly attacking the noble Palestinians without provocation they wouldn't be so disliked. That will teach them to sell out the Christ.

HA HA HA, Stirrin' the pot, baby! Undersoggy ought to love that one.

Honestly though, there are still living eye witnesses to the holocaust, lots of them. Photographic evidence as well. How dense do you have to be?

[Episiarch]

The Hebrew Hammer is coming.

I'd watch that movie except I'm too anti-Semitic.

[libertymike]

MNG-

IMO, Mr. Moynihan's attitude towards Israel is, in a word, obsequious.

[EJM]

On (still) another note, a guest post on Change.org's "Stop Genocide" blog flagged this great quote from Michael Gerson's Friday WP column...

When religion is infected by racism, ideology or extreme nationalism, it can become a carrier of hatred instead of conscience. And when churches are concerned mainly with their institutional self-preservation, they often end up neck-deep in compromise or paralyzed by cowardice.

(Yes, I did appreciate Gerson comparing the Williamson situation to actions during the 1994 Rwandan genocide.)

[J sub D]

Also, in the course of collecting links for this post, I came across a story of Danish schools banning Jewish students ...

Headmaster Olav Nielsen of Humlehave School in Odense publicly admitted he would refuse Jewish parents' wish to place their child at his school.
The comments were made following an incident last week in which two Israeli citizen's were shot and wounded at a city shopping centre. Police believe the incident was a reaction to the Gaza conflict.

Other headmasters have now come forth to support Nielsen's position, adding that they are putting the child's safety first.

I'd hang my head in shame over this if I were Danish.

[MNG]

It's egregious to deny Jewish children to the school. Any possible criticism of Israel's recent actions must be rooted in the principle that engaging in actions that harms the guilty and the innocent alike is immoral. This principle would say that Jewish kids in Denmark have nothing to frigging do with what the IDF does. What a stupid thing to do.

[MNG]

Libertymike
That is indeed a good word for his coverage.

Epi
"I'd watch that movie except I'm too anti-Semitic."

Why don't you just say "Candyman" three times and be done with it?

[Episiarch]

Why don't you just say "Candyman" three times and be done with it?

Tony Todd is Jewish?!?

[MNG]

Epi
Watch this and it will cure you of your anti-Semitism. The creators of this cannot be from an evil race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHoRfjxnGyo

[Aresen]

Cheer up.

In a few years, there will be "George W Bush" deniers who will claim GWB was never President and the US isn't $12 trillion in debt.

[J sub D]

MNG, I consider the hypothesis/theory of antropogenic global warming to be correct, but claiming the establishment scientific consensus is as overwhelming as that for evolution is overstating the case to the point of being complete bullshit.

List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming

Global Warming Consensus Narrows - Still Misleading

Overstating your case doesn't help in convincing others.

But this thread isn't about AGW, it's about the anti-semitic attitudes that still exist around the world, including among educated Europeans who should fucking know better.

[Elemenope]

I'd watch that movie except I'm too anti-Semitic.

I'd watch that movie except that it contains a visual representation of Andy Dick.

Some things are just too much to bear.

[MNG]

I mean you're summoning the Underzog. Every demon has some way to summon him. Todd's was to say Candyman thrice.

Of course, now that I think about it he is not summoned by actual anti-Semitism, but by criticism of Israel, which is of course actually anti-Semitism. He knows its the subtle ones that get ya.

Dude, did you check out the latest Urkobold creation? Not only hilarious, but I finally get a mention!

http://urkobold.blogspot.com/2009/02/underzoggy.html

[MNG]

J sub D

I see your list of scientists and raise you a list of scientific professional organizations (which have combined memberships running in the thousands, they vote on these kinds of statements).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Statements_by_concurring_organizations

[libertymike]

MNG-

I agree that "criticism of Israel's recent actions must be rooted in the principle that engaging in actions that harms the guilty and the innocent alike is immoral."

Therefore, Rowan Laxton should not be arrested and subject to prosecution and incarceration because he allegedly shouted "fucking jews, fucking Israelis." That he may have shouted such things as he watchednews reports of just the most recent Israeli acts of brutality and terror should not be an occaison to throw a pity party for some religion or some nation state. Free people should be much more concerned about living in a world where onecan be locked up for freely speaking one's mind.

[MNG]

J sub D

For that matter I can give you a list of a few dozen Holocaust deniers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Notable_Holocaust_deniers

Every idea has a few people for it. Consensus is made up of large majorities.

[Episiarch]

Watch this and it will cure you of your anti-Semitism. The creators of this cannot be from an evil race.

Other cultures' pop music is so fucking surreal. MadTV used to do a fake Scandinavian band called Hoppy Potty.

Todd's was to say Candyman thrice.

Todd was the Candyman. Virginia Madsen summoned him.

I'd watch that movie except that it contains a visual representation of Andy Dick.

Have you seen the Comedy Central roasts? Dick is usually at them and they pillory him relentlessly.

[EJM]

Every demon has some way to summon him. Todd's was to say Candyman thrice.

It also worked with Beetlejuice.

[MNG]

libertymike
I totally agree. The laws against Holocaust denial, like "hate speech" laws, have no place in a civilized society.

I will also note that from what I have read (admittedly not much on this) Williamson is not so much a Holocaust "denier"; I've heard he says only 300,000 Jews were killed. Now that may be wackily off, but it's hard for me to see that as "denial." I mean, what is the "magic number" that a person must state before he is no longer "denying" the Holocaust (again, I think it nuts that would be a crime in any respect).

The best way to combat nonsense is with speech all around.

[MNG]

I like Andy Dick, but not his stand-up. He needs a good writer and then he's gold.

[libertymike]

People who support fleecing the american taxpayer for the purpose of giving billions and billions to Israel each and every year knowing that a good deal of the money will go to bolstering Israel's war machine that will kill and terrorize and commit war crimes against Palestians are the quintessence of anti-semitism. Much more so than Bishop Williamson or David Irving. How many war crimes have they commited? How many Palestians, Lebanese or other semitic peoples have they raped, starved, bombed or massacred?

[Pro Libertate]

Oh, Mister Nazi Guy! I missed that when I read the BakedPenguin's master opus this morning.

It's so crazy to deny the Holocaust. I mean, what's the point? If you hate Jews, for instance, does it change anything if the Nazis killed a bunch of them or not? I figure people who dislike Jews want to deny the Holocaust because they feel that Jews gain some sort of moral stature from it. The Holocaust is a horrific fact, but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral stature of anyone but the Nazis and people who want to deny that it happened.

We landed on the Moon, Kennedy was killed by Oswald, and al Qaeda brought down the Twin Towers. However, the Illuminati are real. I know, I run the organization.

[J sub D]

Apparently it's consensus if you agree. I'm not like that. Evolution and the Holocaust will never be doubted by rational under any circumstances imaginable. That can't be said about AGW. If you can't see that, it is you who are not credible.

Consensus among physicists (see Lord Kelvin) once set the upper age limit of the solar system at 50 million years. Geologists said they were full of crap. We know how it all worked out.

[Episiarch]

However, the Illuminati are real. I know, I run the organization.

SASQUATCH LIVES!!!

[CLS]

To compare Williams to global warming is just a sign of the desperation of the alarmist camp on warming. If the Holocaust rested entirely on computer models predicting a future Holocaust, and not evidence reporting an actual one, then you might have something. But when the models don't match the reality and have to be adjusted constantly, just to stay up with the facts, then things are pretty dismal for the alarmists. The people questioning the Holocaust are not leaders in their field but amateurs. The top people questioning AGW have the proper credentials and the history of working in that field. The comparison between the two views are light years apart. That the alarmists resort to the comparing them speaks badly for their side.

[Matthew]

Episiarch |
Oy, why do the papists have to hate the hebes so much?

Papists don't, Williamson's a nutter.

[libertymike]

MNG-

Good point. That is one piece of evidence in support of my prior point of Moynihan's obsequiousness towards Israel. People who are quick to throw around the label of "holocaust denial" are only revealing their bias and inability to be precise. There is a difference between saying the Nazis killed no jews and saying that 300,000 or 1,000,000 were killed. If one claims that 6,000,000 jews were not killed by the Nazis, one is instantly labeled, by many, as a "holocaust denier."

Moynihan is guilty. Is it intellectual laziness? Or, as I suspect, is it the obsequious thing?

[MNG]

People who hate "the Jews" for something the Israeli government did are making the same stupid mistake that people like Underzog, who claim that people who get mad at the Israeli government hate "the Jews", always makes.

Israel is state. "The Jews" are millions of individuals. Most of them do not even live in Israel, and of the few that do most of them have little control over what their government does, and many even actually oppose what id does in this area.

[Paul]

So, who are these Jews that people have been going on about for my entire life?

[libertymike]

Ethnic cleansing thy name is Israel. Every day, another instance of terror, rape, murder, war crime after war crime. The victims, SEMETIC PEOPLES.

[MNG]

Uh, guys, see my 6:38 post! I never claimed that global warming has a consensus equal to that of the holocaust. In fact, if I had to put them in order ot strength of consensus, I would put them thusly:
1. Holocaust
2. Evolution
3. Global Warming

That being said, the principle I was illustrating in my first post and explained in my 6:38 post still applies.

[Elemenope]

You know what I just realized? Last time Underzog posted, he was doing it on the Sabbath.

[TallDave]

Paul,

You're not the only one confused on that score.

[FatDrunkAndStupid]

Were Germans really calling up the Japanese and asking them to hand over their Jews, as the linked article asserts? That doesn't sound historically kosher. Consider me a Denialist on that issue until presented proper proof.

[libertymike]

in the name of the father, the son and The HOLOCAUST.

Why should the Catholic Church genuflect to the anti-semetic rabble who have been the most instrumental force in the enactment, expansion and enforcement of hate crime legislation? So Bishop Williamson is a disciple of the revisionist school, so what? How many people who have criticized the Vatican for bringing Bishop Williamson back into the fold have been equally feverish in their condemnation of Israel's war crimes?

[D.R.M.]

One of the great areas of progress over the last five hundred years is the effort to have the Roman Catholic Church cease having official opinions about cases of scientifically-testable fact. For example, the Church has no official opinion anymore about the structure of the solar system, nor does it specify any specific theory about evolution or creationism or the like.

This goes both ways; someone who persistently denies a heliocentric solar system or evolution isn't violating Catholic doctrine any more than someone who insists on them. If you think the Sun orbits the Earth, you are not subject to heresy trials or excommunication. The Church is out of the whole business.

The Holocaust is, properly, not a matter of Church doctrine, any more than the structure of the solar system. It's a historical fact, not a matter of faith. It is therefore, properly, irrelevant to the question of whether a person should remain excommunicate. So, properly, the RCC didn't even consider it when reviewing the excommunication.

[John C. Randolph]

It's so crazy to deny the Holocaust. I mean, what's the point?

The point is, if the nazis can convince enough people that the holocaust didn't happen, then they get another shot at power. As it is, nazis are a tiny fringe group who are easily dismissed.

-jcr

[there are]

alot of jews in america that are not pro-israel. we tend to be (as a group statistically, we all have different views of course) less pro-israel than christian fundies.

[Aresen]

jcr

I take your point about Nazis not wanting to be blamed for horrific mass murder, but getting another shot at power? That would require WWII denial.

[Neu Mejican]

JsubD,

Evolution and the Holocaust will never be doubted by rational [people] under any circumstances imaginable.

I think you have a limited imagination.

As for the consensus on AGW, Evolution, Holocaust, you need to be more specific before the claim becomes meaningful.

As you have framed it so far, you are, what's the phrase, "not even wrong."

There are aspects of the AGW claim that are as rock solid as any claims in science. As rock solid as evidence of the holocaust. Completely outside the realm of debate among rational informed people.

Other claims that could fall under the umbrella of AGW, not so much.

Devil's in the details.

[Taktix?]

This goes both ways; someone who persistently denies a heliocentric solar system or evolution isn't violating Catholic doctrine any more than someone who insists on them.

I still believe the world revolved around me, and since, to the stationary observer, everything else is moving, I have scientific proof!

[swillfredo pareto]

In fact, if I had to put them in order ot strength of consensus, I would put them thusly:
1. Holocaust
2. Evolution
3. Global Warming

Agreed. By that same token I would put forth the following BCS ranking:
1. Holocaust
2. Evolution
3. Easter Bunny

[Meh]

The point is, if the nazis can convince enough people that the holocaust didn't happen, then they get another shot at power. As it is, nazis are a tiny fringe group who are easily dismissed.

-jcr

That about sums up the neo-nazi strategy these days. See, e.g. Libertymike.

[libertymike]

Meh-

Neo Nazi = supporter of Israel.

Unmoved by Zionist claptrap = LibertyMike

[libertymike]

Meh-

No credibility. No logic. No rational discourse. But, hey, this is a free speech zone-even if zionophile losers cheer on hate crimes legislation.

[Meh]

Sure thing libertymike. Your views are quite clear to anyone who reads reason.

I will give you credit though. You do do a good job of showing how a lot of criticism of Israel is actually from real life jew-haters though.

Israel itself couldn't do a better job of it.

[Meh]

BTW - I love all those neo-nazi and white supremacist groups that are huge Israel supporters, as opposed to big critics of Israel.

You make such excellent points.

[BakedPenguin]

MNG - thanks for the props. Here is the best kosher reggae, evah.

[Meh]

Libertymike -

You are a supporter of genocide who denies and belittles the slaughter of six million men, women, and children. You will forgive me if I don't much care that I don't have credibility in your book.

[VM]

the danish thing - it's a bit misleading how it's been reported on above.

Olav is a clear fucktard anti semite asshole, but the minister of education (who is in reality a huge tool) certainly isn't backing this twaddlenockery.

and his bs excuse that due to the number of "arabian kids" ("arabiske b?rn") at the school - "for their own protection" garbage. pure antisemitic bullshit from this asshole.

And as Mr. Moynihan knows from living over there, the myth about all this tolerance and what not is pure bullshit, especially in Denmark.

But a little deeper look into this story paints a slightly different picture.

Check out the minister of education's reaction (Bertel Haarder).

or two other, surprising reactions

Bent Lexner's reaction. ("Hvis en j?disk mor kom til mig og spurgte om, hvorvidt det var en god id?, at hendes s?n begyndte p? en skole med mange b?rn med arabisk baggrund, ville jeg ogs? sige nej, s?dan som sagerne st?r nu", siger han.)
"If a Jewish mother came to me and asked if it were a good idea that her son went to a school with lots of children with "arabian background", I would also say no. That's how things are right now."

Bent happens to be the Senior Rabbi in Denmark

or Fathi El-Abed's (Chair of the Danish-Palestinian Friendship association) reaction...
"Det er s? deprimerende, hvis det er kommet dertil, at vores b?rn ikke kan g? p? samme skole p? grund af en international konflikt. Det er til at gr?de over, siger han."

"It is so depressing that it's come to this - that our children cannot go to the same school all due to an international conflict. That's enough to cry over"

and the only mention of other schools was from Lexner who had heard of a few schools in Copenhagen...

granted, I'm only skimming and doing a quick search here... but i didn't come across any other school's names who would participate.

link

"Humlehaveskolen er en folkeskole og dermed for alle. S? selvf?lgelig skulle de v?re velkomne. Men jeg ville samtidig give for?ldrene et voksent r?d om at finde en anden skole til deres barn"

"Humlehave School is a public school and therefore is for all. So of course, by all means they would be welcome. But at the same time, I would strongly advise parents to find a different school for their children"

[R Jeffrey Grace]

---quote---
Bishop Richard Williamson, the Holocaust-denying Catholic crackpot whose excommunication was recently reversed by the Vatican, tells Der Spiegel that he has ordered a book by former French "revisionist" Jean-Claude Pressac, who later recanted his gas chamber denials, and will "review the historical evidence once again."
---endquote---

Well, bully for him! So does the nutter have any plans to review his belief that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is authentic? Eh? Eh? Wackjob...

[Rothchild]

Moynihan,
next assignment: write a article about a woman in Palestine who is trying to sell her food rations in order to send her son to college to major in nuclear physics so that he may one day create a nuclear bomb to use on Israel. Make sure and point out how this is a good REASON why we need to kill all the palestinians.

[Fred]

Do you have any point Rothchild? Maybe he could also post about how the jews can be ethnically cleansed (again) so that all of palestine isn't "occupied" anymore?

[ASMarques]

I find it interesting that Mr. Moynihan and most comments posters apparently think the "Holocaust" is an undeniable historical fact.

Well, we can always construe complex sets of events into "single historical facts" and maintain an epistemological validity to our discourse if a clear definition of our meaning exists. Historical narrative would be a desert of intractable minutiae if we didn't do just that. Thus, the Second World War may be called a fact, much like the fact that I entered a comment on this forum or any other simple empirical truth. This is because, in spite of the great complexity of the historical events, we establish definitions and understand them: a "war" is a state of belligerence between states, a "world war" is a war of global world significance, and "the Second World War" is the particular world war that took place between 1939 and 1945.

Similarly, if we are to take the "Holocaust" as an historical fact, rather than a vague set of religious-like beliefs, we should define our meaning. For instance, a biblical holocaust is simply a sacrifice consumed by fire, and "ill-will towards the Jews," "persecution of the Jews," "the shooting of one's Jewish grandfather in Russia" or "some mass killings of Jews" are not "the Holocaust," the one historians are talking about when they capitalise the noun. I presume you will agree that it is impossible to debate the supposedly historical "Holocaust" if -- alone among alleged historical facts -- it is allowed to remain an open concept devoid of meaning and form.

The "Holocaust" then is assumed to be a relatively precise set of events involving an attempted extermination of the Jews, resulting in approximately 6 million of them being murdered, mainly in the German supposedly homicidal gas chambers. I believe anyone who has been around for the last half century, living anywhere but in the deepest Amazonian jungle, is familiar with this.

In this sense then, we are perfectly entitled to claim the "Holocaust" is a fiction, since all the above claims are false: no extermination (real or attempted), no 6 million (not even approximately), and no homicidal gas chambers (not even in the supposed "extermination camp" of Auschwitz-Birkenau where by far the largest part of the presumed gassings is supposed to have taken place). To understand this, however, it is not enough to sit comfortably on your "acquired knowledge." You'll need to actively, and perhaps painfully, search for yourself.

Of course, if we choose to define the "Holocaust" in a different manner, say as a proto-religious teaching based on extreme but vague war propaganda, claiming that undefined, formless but terrible, events, many of them miraculous, happened to Jews in such a manner that they are collectively entitled to financial compensation, as well as the Jewish state of Israel exempted from the basic standards of civilised behaviour, then the "Holocaust" may indeed be considered "a fact" -- though hardly an appropriate subject for any historical debate.

Try http://www.codoh.com

[jtuf]

ASMarques, yeah right. Get your head out of the sand and join reality.

[jtuf]

Europe's hate speech laws are an embarasment. It worries me that American academia sees Europe as a role model.

[Sara]

Since Pressac's book is out of print, I suggest that Williamson (and poor deluded Mr. Marques) read the book in its entirety online on our web site. (And yes, it's there with the agreement of the publisher.)

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

[MNG]

Rothchild
You've got it half right at least. I'd like to see Moynihan write a story about what it would be like for that mother living in the Occupied Territories. She goes to tend to the crops her family has for years but a road to an illegal settlement bisects the land now, and the terrorist wall took up 10% of her land (talk about your eminent domain!). Her husband is one of the hundreds of Palestinians being detained in an Israeli prison without trial (talk about your administrative detainees!). Often the few crops she can get out to market either rot during excessive wait periods at IDF checkpoints (unless she lives in Gaza in which case IDF soldiers with guns do not allow her to move these goods at all, talk about your trade restrictions!). An employer in Israel would love to employ her son to help make ends meet, and the son would love to work there, but IDF soldiers say they cannot travel there for work (so much for freedom of movement or contract).

Oh yeah, and then the IDF drops a bomb on your house, and your son is dead (even though you are one of the majority of Gazans that voted against Hamas, so much for excessive use of government force!).

But I guess travel grants for such a reporting trip are harder to come by than AIPAC grants are...And such a story might make the right wing leaning folks that one caters too call to cast him out, so don't look for such libertarian reporting from MM soon...

[MNG]

About the Holocaust, I mean, let me even try to assume good faith on the doubters and just ask: do you think all those thousands of historians that testify to it are just making shit up? I mean, what's more likely, that they are all wrong or you are in your historical investigation? It boggles the brain...

[VM]

AS(s)Marques broke rule number three and shall be ignored.

"an historic".

such dildonic twaddlenockery gets set aside for "later reading" along with the Phone Book from Walla Walla, Washington.

For such quixelnofish behavior, we shall take the cookie from Mr. Steven Crane.

[libertymike]

MNG-

Do you think that I am a Neo-Nazi? This guy Meh, thinks that I am because I happen to recognize that Israel is a racist, anti-semetic war mongering massacring regime.

I am the antithesis of Naziism. Who here is more diametrically opposed to the notions of "national" and "socialism?" This guy Meh has no credibility at all. If he is calling me a Neo-Nazi, he just reveals his lack of credibility and ignorance. If he reads these here boards, he would know that there is no poster here more of an anarcho-frre enterprise-individualist than me. Nazis were not individualists. Nazis were socialists. If this guy Meh reads, he should know that I abhor socialism.

What does he say about the confiscation of the bread from the mouth of labor for the purpose of giving it to the Israeli war machine knowing that it will be used to bolster their military and that semitic peoples will be brutalized and killed thereby?

[Seamus]

Never mind his anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories. Does the Vatican really want to put someone this stupid back in a position of authority?

Lifting Williamson's excommunication doesn't put him into any position of authority. (He has some authority in the SSPX, but he had that while he was excommunicated, and the SSPX isn't an agency of the Catholic Church.)

[Solana]

Did anyone else read the comments on those articles? Specifically the Australian article on rising anti-Semitism? I forget sometimes how much ignorant hate dominates the mainstream political poles (left and right).

Switching from those sites back to Reason, though? was a breath of fresh air: sober repudiation of hate speech laws paired with unflinching opposition to racism and violence, and an abundance of funny Youtube videos. God bless you people!

[WHO GIVES A FUCK?]

EOM

[Blitz]

"Dude, did you check out the latest Urkobold creation? Not only hilarious, but I finally get a mention!

http://urkobold.blogspot.com/2009/02/underzoggy.html"

Someone take a crap or what?

[Rabbi Shlomo]

"Ethnic cleansing thy name is Israel. Every day, another instance of terror, rape, murder, war crime after war crime. The victims, SEMETIC PEOPLES."

Jesus, dude. Give it a rest.

[libertymike]

Hey Rabbi-

Are you are denier of the Palestinian Holocaust?

[MNG]

"Do you think that I am a Neo-Nazi?"

Not at all.

[Rabbi Shlomo]

"Hey Rabbi-

Are you are denier of the Palestinian Holocaust?"

You mean Hamas systematically killing members of Fatah? Of course I don't deny it.

[Gabe]

Fred,
I can't speak for "Rothchild" but I don't think he would want to ethnically clense anyone. When one country(regardless of religion or ethnicity) places blockades around a group of people blokcing food,water and other supplies...it is called a siege. This a particularly cruel way to kill large numbers of women and children. Yes some people in the region are obviously murderers...they seem to be killing innocent Israel at about the same rate that inner city chicago youth kill innocent suburbanites. I do not think either the chicago deaths or the Israeli deaths are desirable...I also do not think seiges and military invasions are the best solution to either problem. Call me crazy.

[Bob A]

The Israelis have the wherewithal to kill every last person in Gaza within 24 hours. If they were genocidal, why haven't they done that?

[libertymike]

Hey Rabbi-

See what MNG says. We are not idealogical soulmates. But he is a critical thinker. He is also very intelligent. And, he is intellectually honest.

[ASMarques]

Sara: "Since Pressac's book is out of print, I suggest that Williamson (and poor deluded Mr. Marques) read the book in its entirety online on our web site. (And yes, it's there with the agreement of the publisher.)"

May I suggest that you complete your readings with the following analysis by Prof. Robert Faurisson: "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers (1989) ou bricolage et 'gazouillages' ? Auschwitz et ? Birkenau selon J.-C. Pressac (1989)":

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/archFaur/1986-1990/RF9011xx21.html
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/archFaur/1986-1990/RF9011xx22.html

Sorry, it's in French. I know of no on-line English tranlation. You may wish to try two short resum?s of Pressac's sad demise:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Faurisson1.html
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters1/Zundel1/faurisson.htm

Also Faurisson's reply to Pressac's even more awkward second book on the crematories of Auschwitz "R?ponse ? Jean-Claude Pressac sur le probl?me des chambres ? gaz (1994)":

[French]:
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/archFaur/1991-1994/RF94reponseJCP1.html
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/archFaur/1991-1994/RF94reponseJCP2.html

[English]:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Faurisson1.html

**********
MNG: "About the Holocaust, I mean, let me even try to assume good faith on the doubters and just ask: do you think all those thousands of historians that testify to it are just making shit up? I mean, what's more likely, that they are all wrong or you are in your historical investigation? It boggles the brain..."

Thank you for assuming good faith on my part. The quick reply to the interrogation that boggles your brain: "what reasons are there for historians not to doubt the 'Holocaust'":

1) For academic historians in general (a historian who does not specialise in the "Holocaust" is no better equipped to understand why the "Holocaust" is a hoax than anybody else is):

-- Ignorance (they may not know and not care).
-- Na?vet? (historians are not hoax proof).
-- Prudence (debunking the myth is not a career booster).
-- Fear (they may fear losing their jobs, being assaulted, judicially prosecuted etc.).

2) Academic historians who specialize in the "Holocaust" itself are but a pitiful handful [*]. So, by "historians" I mean here that same handful of academics plus anyone else who writes on, and claims extensive knowledge of, the "Holocaust". For them the reasons are:

-- Tribalism (they may be Jews unable to professionally detribalise) [1].
-- Devotion (they may be "Holocaust" cultists unable to reason) [2].
-- Greed (they may find the platform lucrative and not too crowded).
-- Incompetence (they may be exceptionally stupid).
-- Fear (they may fear losing their jobs, being assaulted, judicially prosecuted etc.).
-- Impotence (they may be demoralised, reduced to indigence or imprisoned).
__________

[1] Compare with patriotically motivated historians who glorify their own country's history and pay deficient attention to the historical record.

[2] Compare with religiously motivated historians who believe in the miracles of their own religions and have a deficient understanding of History itself.

[*] Note on historians:

As I said before, academic historians are the exception, not the rule in the "Holocaust" field (or maybe I should say "minefield").

For example, Gerald Reitlinger was an art dealer with no academic qualifications; Georges Wellers, considered a prominent French writer on the Holocaust and a bitter opponent of revisionism, was the director of a medical research laboratory and had no historical training; Jean-Claude Pressac, author of several books on the Auschwitz gas chambers, had a diploma in pharmacy but no historical training whatsoever; Walter Laqueur, author of many books on the Holocaust never completed a university degree; Raul Hilberg's studies were in political science. I think Butz puts his case across much better than any of them:

THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY
THE CASE AGAINST THE PRESUMED EXTERMINATION OF EUROPEAN JEWRY
By Arthur R. Butz

[Free PDF download]
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres3/HoaxV2.pdf

Quote from Butz:

"A common complaint about this work has been that I am not a trained historian or history professor. It is, however, not unusual for people who are not academic historians to make contributions to history. The great American historian Francis Parkman was no history professor; he had only a brief academic appointment as Professor of Horticulture at Harvard. The late Arnaldo Momigliano urged wariness of academic historians and pointed out that none of the three leading nineteenth century historians of the ancient world was a history professor, e.g. Mommsen was a Professor of Law.

"However, such examples do not satisfactorily illustrate the fact that history has a closer relationship to popular culture than most other academic disciplines. This is easily clarified and proved. In the major book reviews (New York Times, New York Review, etc.) one can find reviews of, and advertisements for, many works on the leading edge of historical research, i.e. works not specifically written for popular readership. No such attention is given to leading edge works in electrical engineering and most other academic disciplines. Many intelligent laymen can read such historical works with comprehension. If many can read them, then some can write them. I could give reasons for this relatively popular status of serious history study, but it would carry us too far afield. In any case, there is no venality on the part of academic historians in approving of such popular promotion of their books.

"Such observations show, however, that there is hypocrisy in their common implication, when denouncing Holocaust revisionism, that only people with their kinds of Ph.D. degrees are competent to deal with historical issues.

"The style of my book is certainly not elegant. I believe my style has improved much since then but, like most men with a technical education, my style remains at best dry and not elegant. It was, however, good enough to do the job. I have even sometimes wondered if elegance of style might be incompatible with a subject as dreary as the present one."

**********
VM: "AS(s)Marques broke rule number three and shall be ignored. 'an historic'."

I beg your indulgence for assuming the non-aspiration of the h. I'm Portuguese and English is a foreign language to me. If however you're knowledgeable about the "Holocaust" (a very big aspiration there, I presume), I humbly invite you to lick AS(s)Marques in loyal, i.e. non-censored, debate.

[ASMarques]

ASMarques: "You may wish to try two short resum?s of Pressac's sad demise:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Faurisson1.html
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters1/Zundel1/faurisson.htm "

Sorry I got the first URL wrong. Here is the correction:

-- Jean-Claude Pressac, version 2000 (2000) [French]:
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/archFaur/1995-2000/RF000331.html

-- Ten Years Ago, Jean-Claude Pressac's Capitulation (2005) [English]:
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters1/Zundel1/faurisson.htm

[BG]

Regarding the picture TallDave linked to; I, for one, am sick and tired of bigotry against the products of Tropicana, Minute Maid, and similiar companies.

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

WE HAVE EVIDENCE TO BELIEVE THAT AS(S)MARQUES IS NOT PORTUGUESE, BUT ESTONIAN.

THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS ERROR SHALL BE SACKED.

HOWEVER, WHAT PROTECTED THEIR TAINTS FROM A SEVERE WITHERING WAS THEIR ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT AS(S) IS AN IGNORANT TWADDLENOCK.

HOWEVER, THE FURIOUS GREEN BLOBS OF PURPLE SHALL DEBATE AS(S). AS FOR VM, HIS FORTE IS NOT DEBATING, BUT BATIN.

REPORTS HAVE HIM IN STEVO'S BUNK.

***END*** ***END*** ***END***

[ASMarques]

Minion of URKOBOLD: "WE HAVE EVIDENCE TO BELIEVE THAT AS(S)MARQUES IS NOT PORTUGUESE, BUT ESTONIAN."

Ora c? est? a rica demonstra??o de intelig?ncia e humor que se esperava. Para uma criatura urcoboldiana de tenra idade, ? claro. E assim vai a massa associativa do "Holocausto", toda ela certeza inamov?vel e obedi?ncia ao credo...

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

SINCE THIS INVOLVES NEITHER DEBATIN OR BATIN, ALL THAT SHALL HAPPEN IS THAT THE WEIBSKOBOLD SHALL ENJOY HER COOKIE AND TAKE COMFORT IN THE FACT THAT THE RESIDENT ESTONIAN IS GOOD WITH GOOGLE TRANSLATIONS.

[heshaojie]

http://www.uggkick.com uggbooks