A Merciful Fate for Baghdad Metal Band

After four years of lugging Marshall half-stacks across the Middle East, the Iraqi heavy metal band Acrassicauda, subject of the documentary "Heavy Metal in Baghdad," has arrived in the United States. The band members were granted refugee status earlier this month and settled in Elizabeth, New Jersey, presumably because it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad. The New York Times credits Vice magazine with lobbying on their behalf:

Acrassicauda's primary advocate has been Vice, the Brooklyn-based magazine and media company that made "Heavy Metal in Baghdad." Vice is better known for wisecracking pop-culture commentary than humanitarian aid, but it has been working tirelessly on the band's behalf for a year and a half.

Vice tried to help resettle the members to Canada and Germany, and kept them afloat with cash - as much as $40,000 paid from Vice's own coffers, sponsors and donations collected online, according to Suroosh Alvi, a founder of the company and one of the directors of the film.

And what better way to welcome the guys to New Jersey than giving them backstage passes to a Metallica concert:

And on Sunday night, two days after the last of the band's four members was resettled in the United States, they enjoyed what any metal fan would have to call heaven: bearhugs and "Wow, dude" heart-to-hearts backstage with Metallica at the Prudential Center in Newark. It probably wasn't necessary for James Hetfield, Metallica's lead singer, to surprise them after the show by handing over one of his guitars, a black ESP, and signing it "Welcome to America"; their minds were already blown.

Pretty genius video of Acrassicaudu meeting their metal heroes:

Comments

[HammeredHead]

Kudos on referencing Merciful Fate. Haven't heard from them in awhile.

[Warty]

MercYful Fate.

[toxic]

The look on that guys face when Hetfield gave him that guitar... priceless!

[..]

I laughed. I cried. Metallica still sucks. Discuss.

[BakedPenguin]

Michael, it's pretty brave of you to write articles about metal bands. People might get you confused with the other Michael Moynihan.

[BakedPenguin]

For those who don't know what I'm talking about.

[Episiarch]

it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad

Dude, that was uncalled for. Jersey City is America's Baghdad.

I laughed. I cried. Metallica still sucks. Discuss.

Metallica: the most boring music ever played and called "metal". I don't understand how people can listen to 10 minute songs that are more sterile than women who look at Lane Meyer after he skis the K-12.

[ev]

Vice.tv is amazing. That's where I first saw the doc. The one where they quasi-sneak into North Korea is fascinating.

The funniest is when these two reporters go to Chernobyl. They got drunk there and went chasing after some boars or whatever animals they were. The guide stopped them because the forest they were about to enter "will kill you."

Then they pulled out AK-47s and started drunkenly shooting in the direction of said animals.

[Hazel Meade]

I'm happy for them, but ...

I kinda feel that Iraq could use them more back home. With violence down and the recent election, it would be beautiful to see heavy metal rock bands playing in Baghdad again. I'm sure there's still SOME danger to them, it's just ... at moments like this, there's an opportunity for people to lead by example and give others courage by getting out there and doing things that used to be unsafe.

[Lesbian Until Graduation]

"I laughed. I cried. Metallica still sucks. Discuss."

Metallica was my introduction to Metal. I still love their music.

Slightly off topic but since this blog sometimes raises the topic of IP and this is a thread about a metal band I thought I should share this site with the posters: http://www.severedfifth.com/

[Pepe]

"...settled in Elizabeth, New Jersey, presumably because it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad."

If Newark is America's Baghdad then Elizabeth must be Tikrit. I had to live there a couple years ago for a temporary assignment in NY. These guys should feel right at home. Burned out buildings, abandoned vehicles, economic despair. Actually they may miss Iraq. At least people are trying to rebuild there.

Jersey sucks. Good place for a metal band though.

[Right Wing Realist]

You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic". St. Anger was a stinker, but the boys are back in form.

[TallDave]

Freedom and Democracy reign in Iraq today.

[squarooticus]

You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic". St. Anger was a stinker, but the boys are back in form.

Maybe among major label stuff (and I am on record as saying that Death Magnetic is Metallica's best since MoP).

But there is so much superior metal independently-released or on smaller labels that your statement is trivially rebutted: Therion's Gothic Kabbalah, Korplikaani's Korven Kuningas, Canvas Solaris' The Atomized Dream, Redemption's The Origins of Ruin, Serenity's Words Untold and Dreams Unlived, Sonata Arctica's Unia, and Riverside's Rapid Eye Movement are all far better albums, though utterly unknown by the (m)asses.

[thoreau]

Freedom and Democracy reign in Iraq today.

ORLY? Then why are those metal dudes so determined to stay the hell away from Iraq?

[Jammer]

What would Detroit be? Fallujah?

[David]

There is no freedom in Iraq or any middle eastern Arab country for western values. These guys would end up targeted as they became more popular. when women can have freedom of choice and education without having a male relatives approval, and not be killed or maimed, then I will say there is freedom. until then, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are just experiments in theory of democracy.
these guys are where they should be. lets support them.

[TallDave]

David, why do you hate America?

[Noah]

Although the documentary on these guys claims that they are the only heavy metal band in Iraq, there is also a death metal band I know of called Dog Faced Corpse. The name comes from a murder in which the faction that did the killing sowed a dog's head onto the human corpse to make a statement. Dog Faced Corpse claims to be more "true metal" than Acrassicauda.

[Right Wing Realist]

But there is so much superior metal independently-released or on smaller labels that your statement is trivially rebutted: Therion's Gothic Kabbalah, Korplikaani's Korven Kuningas, Canvas Solaris' The Atomized Dream, Redemption's The Origins of Ruin, Serenity's Words Untold and Dreams Unlived, Sonata Arctica's Unia, and Riverside's Rapid Eye Movement are all far better albums, though utterly unknown by the (m)asses

Most underground metal is unlistenable. Metallica hits the sweet spot between hardcore and widespread appeal. They are the perfect band.

I give you that Sonata Arctica is good, but better than Metallica? You're smoking something.

[Head]

Episiarch | February 6, 2009, 6:38pm | #
it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad

Dude, that was uncalled for. Jersey City is America's Baghdad.

Yo, don't knock it till you've been mugged there. I have - Respeck.

[Warty]

You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic".

WTF? You must not ever listen to metal.
1
2
3

[Warty]

5

[Ramsey]

Sorry, the best metal album of the last three years was The Blackening, by Machine Head. The guitar work in Aesthetics of Hate gives me shivers.

[Warty]

Well, I fucked up the last two links, but they were the last two albums from The Haunted - The Dead Eye and Versus. I think I'd better see them in April when they come to the states.

Ramsey, The Blackening was pretty good, much better than Death Magnetic. I'm partial to Swedish bands myself, though.

[BoscoH]

I thought that guy was Kirk Hammett at first!

[The_Chef]

Episiarch | February 6, 2009, 6:38pm | #

Metallica: the most boring music ever played and called "metal". I don't understand how people can listen to 10 minute songs that are more sterile than women who look at Lane Meyer after he skis the K-12.

Very True,
If you want 10 minute metal songs: Opeth is the king of the good stuff.

Right Wing Realist | February 6, 2009, 7:41pm | #
You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic". St. Anger was a stinker, but the boys are back in form.

Are you fucking kidding me?
Opeth - Watershed
Blotted Science - The Machinations of Dementia
Between the Buried and Me - Colors

And that's just off the top of my head.

[waldo]

This basically makes me think of System of a down Although, maybe it would be ok> I doubt it most metal sucks

[Tacos mmm...]

Metal is great, if you're a 14-year-old guy. I used to love it back in the day.

I hate to think what it says about libertarians that there are so many metalheads here.

[The_Chef]

ya know, Tacos ....

a friend of mine at college who doesn't like metal at all told me that there are two genres of music that are pushing the bounds in the modern scene: Metal and Bluegrass. I thought about it, and I realized he's right. Rock is dead, Hip hop is garbage and it's all the same stuff, pop music is ... horrifyingly over produced. You might throw Jazz into the mix, prog Jazz is doing some new and interesting things (still not my cup of tea though).

I suggest you listen to some REAL metal bands before making your judgment. Opeth, ASG, Katatonia, Blotted Science, Draconian are all top notch.

[Bingo]

All metal is boring and derivative. Kudos on not being in a hellhole country.

[The_Chef]

Bingo,

All music is derivative. The boring part is subjective.

[Warren]

I got into metal back in the day. I was into a lot of the big pre metal bands. Led Zep, Deep Purple, stuff like that. Judas Priest was the real deal. Iron Maiden was my favorite group. Actually saw them on the Number of the Beast tour. Things started sliding with Motley Crue. When Metalica hit the scene I went looking else where in music and never returned. Metalica sucks in every possible way.

[tr00)))]

I was just out driving drunk, and "Damage Inc." came up on the ol' playlist. I found it a fine bit of classic rock for driving drunk to.

So no, Metallica don't still suck. They just suck.

And you all suck at metal. Opeth?! "That Bobby Darin is one helluva folk singer!"

[Warty]

Bobby Darin? What?

Mockery FAIL

[MNG]

Do we not have a weekend all subjects thread anymore? Is this supposed to be it?

If so, I'll note that re the long debate that occurred on H&R over whether Israel's Holiday Military Slaughter was a disporportionate response to (immoral) Hamas rocket attacks, Israel's PM recently promised just that:
"We've said that if there is rocket fire against the south of the country, there will be a severe and disproportionate Israeli response to the fire on the citizens of Israel and its security forces," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said at the weekly cabinet meeting.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=35924

The great thing about apologists for the IDF is how the IDF itself will often undercut them.

Also, Sri Lankan government forces (a government we give money to (http://srilanka.usaid.gov/) engaged in some questionable military actions recently, repeatedly shelling a hospital for example. We should all urge our government to use whatever leverage it has to get them to try to follow the rules of war while they try to suppress the (obviously cowardly and evil) Tamil Tigers.

[Lesbian Until Graduation]

I think this is one great article about the who Israel / Palestine mess. The entire problem boils down to the very concept of "state".
http://mises.org/story/3285

[Warty]

Who else is glad that Zarek is dead?

[Episiarch]

Who else is glad that Zarek is dead?

You god damned mother fucking spoiler dickhead. I haven't watched yet! It's on the TiVo for tonight!

GOD DAMN IT

[MetallicaFan]

Listen to "Hit The Lights", "Master of Puppets", and "Sad but True", and tell me you think Metallica sucks. Bastards.

You bitches probably like Slipknot.

[David]

TallDave | February 6, 2009, 10:20pm | #
David, why do you hate America?

Where in hell do you get the idea that I hate America?
I'm a realist as far as the middle eastern states are concerned. they are stuck in what for us is the 9th to 16th century European Religious and Nationalist history. if you have a stomach for it, go here and read some of what is going on there.

http://stophonourkillings.com/

if a young woman can be killed for crossing the street 'towards' a house that has several male members, and be killed for it, then I for one will not call those people democratic. or if a young daughter in Basra, falls in love with a westerner she is working with, and gets killed for it I won't call it democratic. I don't say the US hasn't tried, but I do say the expectations are not being met. Even Turkey, India and Pakistan, which are westernized in some respects, and democratic, still have horror stories to tell, and are slipping back.

these guys are well out of it.

[Ken Shultz]

I suppose it's pretty standard for the next generation to look at what came before as being...what's the right word? Tepid.

I kinda wasn't much of a fan of Metallica. I kinda hated on 'em for a long time because of their influence on the scene I loved. So many of my fave bands back in the day crossed over and went thrash or speed after '83 and '84. ...after "Kill 'em All". Hardcore was never the same.

You gotta give 'em credit too for introducing underground music to a wider audience. Most of you never would have heard of The Misfits if it hadn't been for Metallica.

No you wouldn't have.

Anyway, I hear metal kids today sometimes talk about "Kill 'em All" and "Reign in Blood" as if all the music that came later was always there to judge them against. But it wasn't.

So, yeah, I'm not a fan of theirs. I used to hate on 'em quite a bit, and you can take most of what they did after "Blaster of Muppets" and flush it for all I care. But most of the people I hear talk about how Metallica sucks? They suck.

If you're glad to live in a world where Metallica is tepid Metal, even if you don't like 'em, I think you have to give Metallica some credit for that.

P.S. Up yours.

[dhex]

how about we pretend that post-justice for all metallica never existed and just listen to mastodon instead? (not blood mountain though, too fucking prog wanky)

"Jersey City is America's Baghdad."

haven't been to jersey city in a while, huh?

[David]

but getting back to the topic of Metal,

as far as the past is concerned, born in the 40's and I go back to the late 1950's as far as rock is concerned, and yeah, that's ancient history. but if I am reading Ken right, while the older music may seem tepid to the younger ear, then tough, it is what we grew up on, and for some of us old 'ead bangers, it is still good music. that said, one can't stand still when it comes to music, and I have been exploring around and finding lots that I like in current bands. right now Finnland and Germany have a few good bands that have my attention (with a dash of tinnitus from past listening habits perhaps, I have a preverence for some harder stuff) Toten Rosen and Extremo are ok, but I am drifting into Folk Metal. for purists that may be off the radar beam, but I don't have much time to be picky 😉 so sampling around a lot. like the Finnish groups that squarooticus | February 6, 2009, 9:01pm mentioned. when I get some time will pick up some of the Iraqi kids music. right now I have to get an essay on Hamlet done for Monday 😉 doing an interest course in Grade 12 English, voluntarily (does that make me a masochist:)

[dhex]

ps the real edge of metal these days is the (inexplicable) expanding popularity of doom and drone metal. it's like someone turned on the spigot and said "hey, 20 minute long songs are cool!"

weirdness.

ps if you miss the thrash days, you can do so much worse than municipal waste. (their live shows are apparently the most fun ever)

[Underzog]

What the blazes is the matter with Reason?

The U.N. admitted that Israel did not hit their school in Gaza as has been widely reported (and condemned) and you clowns report on rock groups in Bahgdad? ( Did Israel shell U.N. school in Gaza? )?

Israel was once again widely condemned for something deplorable that they did not do and did not happen.

Is Reason Magazine not reporting on this important U.N. retraction because it will anger its anti-Semitic, Ernst Rhoem wannabe readership?

The answer is obvious!

[Right Wing Realist]

All the "underground" metal bands mentioned on this thread are unlistenable, which proves my point.
If I wanted to listen to kittens put in a blender, I would put kittens in a blender.

Metallica combines the best from every subgenre of metal.

[Right Wing Realist]

Oh, and if Mexico were shelling us across the border, I sure as hell hope the US government would have a "disproportionate" response. If a government can't protect the lives and property of its citizens, what is it good for?

Governments do not exist to make leftists feel warm fuzzy and happy.

[MNG]

Wow Underzog, you're a scoundrel, one that would make an SS officer blush.

Here is how the NY Times reported the matter on Jan. 6th:

"Israeli mortar shells killed as many as 40 Palestinians, among them women and children, outside a United Nations school in Gaza on Tuesday where they were taking refuge in the 11th day of the conflict."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07mideast.html

Outside a school within a clearly marked UN refugee compound. And your article's big scoop is

"The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed."

So your big scoop is no scoop at all.

The fact remains that

ass

[Underzog]

The story is misleading, from the title to where the 43 people were killed. The in depth investigation from my link sez they died in the street.

Look... Reason should not be catering to anti-Semites and Communists allied with anti-Semites. The Ernst Rhoem wannabes have Stormfront, David Duke's website, and Thunderbolt to read online. And if they want to hear heavy metal music, the many anti-Semites that "Reason" caters to can go to RAHOWA which also has a website. No, I'm not goint to link to them. Reading the comments of the MNG, Joe, and Fluffy (she wolf of the SS) are bad enough for me.

[MAX HATS]

If I wanted to listen to kittens put in a blender, I would put kittens in a blender.

Trust me, it's not worth the clean up.

[MAX HATS]

Is Reason Magazine not reporting on this important U.N. retraction because it will anger its anti-Semitic, Ernst Rhoem wannabe readership?

The answer is obvious!

Everyone not obsessed with Israel is racist!

[Underzog]

Another reason the Reasonoid would sympathize with the homicide bombing against the Jews is the miserable life these so-called Palestinians have, in part because of the rampant sodomy/pederasty and/or paedophilia that goes on in the Arab socities.

The Libertarian party is the the child molesters party and when an Arab man in the territories sodomizes an Arab youth*, he is merely engaging in "intergenerational sex" to the Libertarian party.

But this leads to the utter misery of the these Arab socities and the street theatre/blood lust of homicide bombing helps relieve the suffering. As James Taranto said, "Homicide bombing is the crack cocaine of the Arab world."

Maybe the many anti-Semites in "hit and run" would admire the Arab men for such "intergenerational sexual practices." Why would you guys criticize such heroes?

*See 4th, 5th and 6th paragraphs into the article

[Kolohe]

it's like someone turned on the spigot and said "hey, 20 minute long songs are cool!"

weirdness.

Wasn't it only with the invention of the phonograph that most music began to be segmented in 5 min or less blocks?

I remember a PJ O'Rourke quip in one of his books that said Wagner's Ring cycle takes 3 days to play.

[Elemenope]

Is Reason Magazine not reporting on this important U.N. retraction because it will anger its anti-Semitic, Ernst Rhoem wannabe readership?

Nah. Honestly, I think they do it just to piss you off.

How does it feel, knowing that your very presence prevents TheTruth(tm) from coming out? How does it feel to be such a tool that your own side doesn't invite you to meetings anymore? How does it feel?

[Ken Shultz]

"Nah. Honestly, I think they do it just to piss you off."

Yeah, my understanding is too that from the time they get up 'til the time they go to bed, it's all about the trolls.

[Underzog]

How does it feel, knowing that your very presence prevents TheTruth(tm) from coming out? How does it feel to be such a tool that your own side doesn't invite you to meetings anymore? How does it feel?Keep away from the hashish when you post.

[Elemenope]

Keep away from the hashish when you post.

Well, do you think that your presence here:

a. Convinces people to agree with you

or

b. Drives people even further away from your position

You may be deluded enough to think "a" but, newsflash, it's "b". You aren't helping your cause.

[The Expatriate]

re: Underzog

Now, I'll be the first person to agree with you that MNG and others of his ilk have an obsession with Israel (aka. Blood Libel 2.0) that borders on monomania.

However, just what in the holy fuck are you on about with libertarians and pedophiles? Honestly, you're going to need to come up with a more authorative source than some ascii-text paranoid rant posted on the Internet 18 years ago.

[Elemenope]

Oh, and Epi, get fucking watching BSG so we here can talk about it without spoiling shit!

[Kolohe]

However, just what in the holy fuck are you on about with libertarians and pedophiles?

Well, there was whatsherface with

Children who willingly participate in sexual acts have the right to make that decision as well, even if it's distasteful to us personally. Some children will make poor choices just as some adults do in smoking and drinking to excess. When we outlaw child pornography, the prices paid for child performers rise, increasing the incentives for parents to use children against their will.

(Note: I honestly can't remember if Ruwart was taken out of context with this. And besides, Weigel is part of the conspiracy, right?. He and Sugarfree are part of every conspiracy.)

On a complete different note:

When you're an airline captain that puts his plane in water, you're a hero. When you're a ship captain that puts his vessel on a runway, not so much.

[dfd]

When you're a ship captain that puts his vessel on a runway, not so much.

Oops. Definitely a career ender. Unlike politics where the phrase "I take responsibility" is as meaningless as it is trite, the Navy has a bit more substantive take on the concept with regard to ship captains. Bad enough to ground a ship anywhere, but right in front of HNL for all the tourists to point at? Embarrassing.

[Warty]

Have you watched it yet Epi? I wanna talk about how they wasted a perfectly good opportunity when Roslin went all Kahlan with rage. She should have caused huge amounts of damage in a blind rage.

Holy shit, I'm a nerd. Here, listen to the nerdiest song ever.

[Episiarch]

God damn you Warty. But I was able to avoid whatever you wrote about the show in your last post. I'm watching it in about two hours.

[James Ard]

Is Slipknot metal? Man that shit stinks.

Underzog, the story Reason is ignoring is the Iraqi election. The same old crapping on Israel piques little interest.

[Warty]

God doesn't exist, but BSG does. Hie to it.

[Warty]

Is Slipknot metal? Man that shit stinks.

There are very few American bands that I'd call metal. The aforementioned Municipal Waste, I guess. Lamb of God, maybe.

Why is it that half of us are metalheads, and at least half are sci-fi geeks? Is there a strong correlation between libertarianism and late loss of virginity, or something?

[MNG]

"Now, I'll be the first person to agree with you that MNG and others of his ilk have an obsession with Israel (aka. Blood Libel 2.0) that borders on monomania."

Yeah, because I never, ever post here about anything else that riles me up, ever. It's just Israel 24 seven on my end.

I'm pretty sure that until they slaughtered a few hundred civilians I had not posted about Israel in months. But I sure posted a lot about other things. And all my anti-Semitic comments, well, there are none. Up in the right hand corner there is a search mechanism, so seek and find these comments.

Unless you think to criticize policies of the government of Israel is the same as anti-Semitism. Which is kind of nutty, isn't it?

[MNG]

Animal welfare. Unions. Global warming. Torture. Strangers with candy. That stuff never gets me worked up enough to post. Yeah.

Who has time for those things when you're obsessed with Israel? Back to poring over my maps of Israeli Occupation and Oppression...

[Underzog]

I'm pretty sure that until they slaughtered a few hundred civilians defend themseveles against my fellow anti-Semites I had not posted about Israel in months. But I sure posted a lot about other things. And all my anti-Semitic comments, well, there are none. Up in the right hand corner there is a search mechanism, so seek and find these comments.THERE.... FIXED IT.

[MNG]

Couldn't find one, huh Underzog?

[Underzog]

Couldn't find one, huh Underzog?You just gave me all the proof I needed for your anti-Semitism, Mr. Nice Guy.When Israel was being terrorized by murderous rockets for years you said nothing, but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight back, then you go beserk. I've said it countless times that anti-Semites always hate it when Jews fight back. I only wish I could set those screams to music or sumping.

[MNG]

Have I ever criticized Jews for fighting back? Now, that's not the same as criticizing the methods they may choose in fighting back. In fact I've said repeatedly that I supported many of their more limited strikes against their foes.

Now how is THAT anti-Semitism?

Human Rights Watch, of which I am a member of, publicly condemned the Hamas rocketing following the cease fire in NOVEMBER, way before Israel engaged in it's slaughter. Are they anti-Semites?

Or maybe folks that have a problem with Israeli policy?

"but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?)" It occurs to me that you have said lots of actually anti-Semitic things in your posts (attributed psychotically to others of course). I've never said one.

Of course, you've also said numerous things that makes quite plain your racism towards Arabs. It strikes me that unless someone shares your racism towards Arabs you conclude they must be "anti-Semites." But as the many Jews I know could tell you being Jewish is not about being anti-Arab (or anti-anything as far as I can figure out).

[MNG]

I mean, does that mean Underzog is an anti-Semite, a "self-loathing" Jew at heart?

[Episiarch]

Strangers with candy.

"Hmm, that's funny. Why does your finger smell like his ass?"

[Elemenope]

So, Epi, have you watched it yet? Or do we have to go all spoiler on your ass?

[MNG]

Tee hee.
I always wonder if all those Colbert fans give props to the show that made him...

Hey Epi, caught the new Abrams Star Trek ad during the Super Bowl. Looked like it might not suck.

Maybe.

(fingers crossed)

Now leave me be, I'm busy desecrating a Torah and painting Swastikas around the house like any good anti-Semite fills his Saturday nights...

[Episiarch]

I'm going to watch it now. Spoil away. Next time I check this thread, I'll have watched it.

[Underzog]

Human Rights Watch, of which I am a member of, publicly condemned the Hamas rocketing following the cease fire in NOVEMBER, way before Israel engaged in it's slaughter. Are they anti-Semites?

It's Human Rights Watch -- not Israel -- that should be investigated for its false and tendentious reporting of the Jewish State.

HRW idiotic description of Israel's use of phosphorous while Hamas does use phosphorous in its rockets in such a criminal manner.

And where does a prosecutor such as Ken Roth come off saying Israel has no right to hit military installations if they use civilians as shields?

An idiot anti-Semite such as Mr. Nice Guy may not understand the international law principle behind it, but an exprosecutor such as Ken Roth (head of HRW) would not be so ignorant.

As for Mr. Nice Guy's earlier contention that Jews cannot be anti-Semites, columnist Steve Plaut says that religious Jews are supposed to pray for the death of Jewish anti-Semites three times a day.

It's ridiculous to say with Norman Finkelstein, Tony Judt, Eric Weber; etc., there is no such thing as a Jewish anti-Semite.

And Mr. Nice Guy, tell your slimey leader to stop using the holocaust to justify his attempts to bring about another one against the Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the holocaust in Israel!

[MNG]

Undie, you are hilarious. Really, like performance art or something.

Where did I say Jews can't be anti-Semites (though I admit that's a strang notion indeed)?

About HRW, you stated that I was an anti-Semite because "When Israel was being terrorized by murderous rockets for years you said nothing, but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight back, then you go beserk." So I pointed out that HRW has often criticized Hamas' actions, but also Israel.

So obviously what makes a person an anti-Semite in your eyes is not that they did not condemn Hamas' actions, which HRW clearly and repeatedly has done, but that they criticize Israel at all.

So a person would have to issue no criticisms of Israeli actions to not be an anti-Semite? That's incredible.

[MNG]

"And Mr. Nice Guy, tell your slimey leader to stop using the holocaust to justify his attempts to bring about another one against the Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the holocaust in Israel!"

And really, you're too much at times. HRW for example repeatedly and loudly criticizes Iran (which I gather you're psychotically talking about). Here's a recent one headlining their Middle East page currently.

http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2009/01/08/iran-freedom-expression-and-association-kurdish-regions

[Elemenope]

And Mr. Nice Guy, tell your slimey leader to stop using the holocaust to justify his attempts to bring about another one against the Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the holocaust in Israel!

WTF does this even mean?

[Underzog]

And really, you're too much at times. HRW for example repeatedly and loudly criticizes Iran (which I gather you're psychotically talking about).

Not at all....

I'm talking about your leader at Human Rights Watch, Ken Roth.

Ken Roth always mentions that his father fled the holocaust so he has the right to bash Israel. MNG ridiculed people who bring up the holocaust in trying to defend Israel btw... but the holocaust....

Your leader, Ken Roth, is a scum that brings false charges against Israel that even the vicious United Nations will not bring.

And judging from the comments of your fellow Rhoemites, they're even stupider than you are.

"Anti-Semitism is the intellectualism of stupid people."

Mary McCarthy

[MNG]

LMNOP
Even funnier than Undie's conclusion that I must be an anti-Semite, he also has concluded that I must be an Arab (perhaps this is part of his usual racist attributions of negative qualities to "the Arabs"). Interestingly then he posits that my "leader" must be Iran's leader. Of course, Iranians are not Arabs, but all that is silly nuance to one such as Undie...

[MNG]

"Ken Roth always mentions that his father fled the holocaust so he has the right to bash Israel. MNG ridiculed people who bring up the holocaust in trying to defend Israel btw"

Huh?

Whut? You seriously think Ken Roth is trying to bring about another holocaust? How does his organizations repeated denunciations of Hamas' actions flow with that goal?

Did your parents keep you in a basement all your childhood with nothing but red meat and a Betamax copy of Exodus?

[MAX HATS]

Of all the obviously real-life-crazy posters here, Underzog takes the cake. And that is saying something.

Seriously, what does anything here have to do with Israel? What the fuck?

[MNG]

Max
Dude, that is my fault. Upthread I posted something about Israel because I thought this might be the "Weekend thread" that Reason used to have all the time and where any subject could be brought up. Underzog, whom seems to never post here EXCEPT on Israel issues (and Ex-pat accuses me of having monomania about the issue!) of course inevitably responded with his jibber jabber, but that's my bad man and I apologize.

[MNG]

But Undie's over the topnness is just a function of the ever dwindling effectiveness of Israeli apologists to get folks to just ignore or applaud anything Israel does. Calling people who criticize Israel "anti-Semites" is what some of these folks feel is their best card, and so he's desperately playing it to a hilarious extent.

[Underzog]

"Mr. Nice Guy": Whut? You seriously think Ken Roth is trying to bring about another holocaust? How does his organizations repeated denunciations of Hamas' actions flow with that goal?
Anyone who isn't anti-American or anti-Semitic on this board (not a great number of people) please read these links and acquaint yourself with Ken Roth and MNG's organization:

Human Rights Watch hires another pro-Palestinian Activist
Report on HRW's activities in 2006: Political Bias Undermines Human Rights

[MNG]

The simple fact of the matter is that Israel, in response to rocket attaks that killed less than two dozen Israelis (awful and cowardly though) engaged in a military action that killed hundreds of women and children. It's such a palpably wrong thing to do folks like Undie who live to apologize for anything Israel does are overheating in their attempt to defend such atrocious behavior.

[MAX HATS]

Stuck at work. I'll play!

Israel had every right to do what it did in Gaza. However, the policy of settlements is a crime against humanity, exactly on par with what we did to the Indians. It was wrong in the 19th century, and it is certainly wrong in the 21st.

[Episiarch]

Fuck, Adama is a hardass. I'd have spared Gaeta. As for Zarek, he's a murderer, so fuck him.

So Helen (Ellen?) is confirmed as the final. Strange choice. I'd bet a lot of money they pulled it out of their ass and had no idea who was what when Tigh killed her.

[Elemenope]

I'm confused. Isn't "underzog" what rabid anti-Semites get tattooed on their arms? I mean, I very occasionally pick up a SPLC newsletter, and they once said that "under zog" refers to "under Zionist-occupied government", a bullshit canard that whackos use to refer to the US government. I mean, it's plausible.

I'm still confused about all the other jibberjabber, but that one's been bugging me for a while.

[Elemenope]

Fuck, Adama is a hardass. I'd have spared Gaeta. As for Zarek, he's a murderer, so fuck him.

Nah, he did tell him there would be no mercy this time. The only thing I was surprised about was that Gaeta didn't kill Zarek himself before committing suicide right at the end, there. That's the way I'd have played it, had I been writing the show.

Wasting the Quorum took me by surprise, but it was a logical move.

But speaking of bad-asses, fucking Romo Lampkin with a fucking pen? Dude, that guard guy got aggroed something fierce.

And what was it the chief saw in the engine room?

[MAX HATS]

I'm still confused about all the other jibberjabber, but that one's been bugging me for a while.

I've noticed that too. Also: note that whenever he accuses someone of antisemtism, he'll throw in some totally over the top antisemetic language. Such as:

but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight back

What the hell?

Totally crazy.

[Episiarch]

The only thing I was surprised about was that Gaeta didn't kill Zarek himself before committing suicide right at the end, there. That's the way I'd have played it, had I been writing the show.

Totally inconsistent with Gaeta's character. Yeah, great effect, but it would be bad writing. Gaeta went out like Gaeta. Made perfect sense to me.

But speaking of bad-asses, fucking Romo Lampkin with a fucking pen?

That, to me, stood out as overkill. Sure, it's possible, but unlikely. It'd be difficult enough with a knife, let alone a pen. I don't know if you've ever studied/practiced any fencing or bladework, but once you're inside closing distance it's pure anarchy. You are as likely to get ganked as the person you are trying to gank.

And what was it the chief saw in the engine room?

My guess is some kind of fundamental structural damage to Galactica.

[Underzog]

Max Hats: I've noticed that too. Also: note that whenever he accuses someone of antisemtism, he'll throw in some totally over the top antisemetic language. Such as:
but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight back
What the hell?

Totally crazy.

Max Hats! Before you make yourself a bigger fool than you already are, see 3:58 - 4:12 of this movie.

It is so frustrating dealing with such ignorant people.

Also, I use Underzog as the Americans used Yankee Doodle. That was supposed to be an insult, too. The Patriots made it into a joke and so have I.

You guys say I'm a performance artist so we should have some entertainment. My website is not devoted to politics, but whimsey instead.

[Elemenope]

Totally inconsistent with Gaeta's character. Yeah, great effect, but it would be bad writing. Gaeta went out like Gaeta. Made perfect sense to me.

The only thing that's ever stood out about Gaeta to me is that he is totally unpredictable in highly stressful situations. And that he likes being the number two guy but has no compunctions trying to kill the number one guy if things go south (like he nearly did with Baltar).

That, to me, stood out as overkill. Sure, it's possible, but unlikely. It'd be difficult enough with a knife, let alone a pen. I don't know if you've ever studied/practiced any fencing or bladework, but once you're inside closing distance it's pure anarchy. You are as likely to get ganked as the person you are trying to gank.

Yeah, but it looked like he got a decisive first shot in (looked like the pen hit the guard right in the jugular) and the rest of the stabs were just to make sure he stayed down. I agree that close combat does tend to devolve into anarchy, but I'd classify that less as combat than as a stabbing of opportunity.

My guess is some kind of fundamental structural damage to Galactica.

My s.o.'s theory is that he discovered some kind of damage caused by the Cylons when they re-did the engines, as a double-cross/insurance policy of some sort.

[Elemenope]

I hasten to add that the Romo neck shot only had a chance of working because the guard was pretty badly distracted by Starbuck.

[Elemenope]

Max Hats! Before you make yourself a bigger fool than you already are, see 3:58 - 4:12 of this movie.

Yah, we'll definitely take Geert Wilder's word for it.

Idiot.

[Underzog]

Antelope: Yah, we'll definitely take Geert Wilder's word for it.

Idiot.

You guys are sick. You ignore reality. Are you saying that Gert Wilders put that little Muslim girl up to calling Jews apes and pigs? It sounds like a woman's voice speaking to the little girl -- not a man's voice such as Wilders.

As for you calling me loony? More Turnspeak Propaganda garbage on your part.

[Elemenope]

Tell you what, underzog. You produce the passage in the Qur'an that says that Jews are descended from apes and pigs, and I'll take back the part where I called you an idiot.

[Elemenope]

Antelope

And, uh, reading FAIL.

BTW.

[Kolohe]

And what was it the chief saw in the engine room?

A path to equalize the psi differential between the compartment in which he was standing with the other side of the bulkhead.

[Warty]

Fuck, Adama is a hardass. I'd have spared Gaeta.

He had no choice, after he told Gaeta on the bridge that there would be no forgiveness for this. I don't think Adama wanted to kill Gaeta.

I think the writers wasted a great opportunity to have Roslin destroy a lot of shit in a rage, but they wrapped up the mutiny story well enough. Now they have to deal with Brother Cavil, Ellen, and they have to find some habitable planet. How many episodes are left?

[Underzog]

Antelope,

I already have the proof of what that little Muslim girl was taught. As for the idea of Jews being Apes and pigs to the Muslims, it developed out of these Quranic verses: excerpts from the link

"Robert Spencer, let's begin with you.

This recent example of the Saudi school teaching that Jews and Christians are apes and pigs is, of course, just a continuation of a long tradition.

In terms of Jews in particular, why are they portrayed as apes and pigs in the Arab Middle East? The Qur'an, for instance, calls Jews apes and pigs several times.

Can you give us the theological background here?

Spencer: Jamie, the idea that Jews are apes and pigs is rooted in three passages of the Qur'an: 2:63-66; 5:59-60; and 7:166. The first of those passages depicts Allah telling the Jews who "profaned the Sabbath": "Be as apes despicable!" It goes on to say that these accursed ones serve "as a warning example for their time and for all times to come" (2:63-66). The second has Allah directing Muhammad to remind the "People of the Book" - a term that refers primarily to Jews and Christians - about "those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil" (5:59-60). The third essentially repeats this, saying of the Sabbath-breaking Jews that when "in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions," Allah said to them, "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

These early Quranic verses have spread to cover all Jews (not just non Sabbath observers) in QH Quranic and tradition amongst the Muslims such as that three and a half year old girl in Gert Wilders's film. She got it from somewhere in that movie and not from some alleged movie coaching on the part of Gert Wilders.

Have you even seen the section of the movie I deliniated, Antelope?

And where is Max Hat in all of this? He is the one who said I was crazy for mentioning it -- even though it is a well known insult of Muslims to Jews.

[Lamar]

"I think the writers wasted a great opportunity to have Roslin destroy a lot of shit in a rage, but they wrapped up the mutiny story well enough. Now they have to deal with Brother Cavil, Ellen, and they have to find some habitable planet. How many episodes are left?"

Habitable planet? The tagline for the prequel series "Caprica" (the pilot supposedly available on DVD in April) is: "The end of humanity has a beginning." I take the phrase to mean that there isn't a habitable planet in the [triad] cards.

[Episiarch]

LMNOP, Gaeta wants the pain. He wants to suffer. Trust me, I know the feeling.

He had no choice, after he told Gaeta on the bridge that there would be no forgiveness for this. I don't think Adama wanted to kill Gaeta.

I would still have spared him, purely for honor. As he said, there has been enough bloodshed. Killing people gets old.

[Elemenope]

Underzog,

Living in the US, this is pretty hard to say with a straight face, but that had to be close to the most ridiculous exegesis I have ever read. That was beyond televangelist bad. That was in the "five year old reading a Holy text" zone of bad.

Yes, I watched the video. All it was was some women off camera asking questions to a five-year-old girl. It proves little, except that one five-year-old girl was taught some silly ideas about Jews, and that some Qur'anic verses were twisted in order to provide her with an explanation for those silly ideas.

[Elemenope]

LMNOP, Gaeta wants the pain. He wants to suffer. Trust me, I know the feeling.

Yeah, I get that.

[MAX HATS]

And where is Max Hat in all of this? He is the one who said I was crazy for mentioning it -- even though it is a well known insult of Muslims to Jews.

First of all, you trying to prove someone besides some five year old girl has ever said it bellies the phrase being "well known."

Second, it is a scientific fact that Jews, like all human beings, are in fact descended from apes. But that is neither here nor there.

Third, you are in fact clearly crazy. Have you ever been on brain pills? Because if not, you should start. Crazy people with incredibly strong opinions about Jews - one way or the other, those stories never end well.

[dhex]

i'm starting a metal band . all of our songs will go ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL SODOMITES ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL DON'T BE A HOMO LIKE ERNST ROHEM

i will call it "underzog".

[Underzog]

Second, it is a scientific fact that Jews, like all human beings, are in fact descended from apes. But that is neither here nor there.

It is HERE AND THERE when Jews are regarded as descended from pigs as the Arab savages to. And they mean it as an insult not in a Darwinian sense.

You people are willfully ignorant and you hang around a site that is spectacularly misnamed "Reason Magazine."

At least, I call things for what they are.

[Underzog]

U N to probe Hamas's use of children as human shields

This is what your Hamas heroes do you Ernst Rhoem wannabees.

HEY! Maybe you guys can go to Gaza or other Arab places and sodomize little Arab kids yourself. You'd kill two birds with one Libertarian stone.

1. Prepare the kids psychologically for homicide bombing; and,

2. Do the child molestation that the Libertarian party supports so much in principle.

No wonder you fellows favor the Arabs over the Jews (snicker).

[Underzog]

There are some good Libertarians though, Neal Boortz slams Muslim tagiyya caller

As I've said before, those patriotic, non anti-Semitic Libertarians should break of from what is now Libertarianism and form their own movement.

[BakedPenguin]

Neil Boortz is a libertarian now? Maybe you should just mention Donderooooo.

The adventures of Underzog!

[BakedPenguin]

And since this thread was supposed to be about the Middle East and heavy metal, let me get it back on track with S.O.D.

[Elemenope]

There is so much anti-Semitism in the world to root out that Underzog never sleeps! (Look at the time-stamps on his comments).

I suppose he could be broadcasting from an underground bunker from somewhere in Central Asia. Is that it? Do you have a secret fort in Asia to hide you from the Rhoemites?

[JamesWoods]

Wow, Metal bands totally ROCK!

RT
http://www.anonymity-tools.us.tc

[Episiarch]

I find Underzog's mania to be fascinatingly boring. Now there's an oxymoron for you.

[Taktix?]

I find Underzog's mania to be fascinatingly boring. Now there's an oxymoron for you.

What happened to the incredibly derivative signature? That was always the icing on the shitcake...

[MNG]

"Wow, Metal bands totally ROCK!

RT
http://www.anonymity-tools.us.tc"

AHHH, DAMN YOU SPAMMER-GUY, DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!!!

I thought it was over with him...but it never ends...

[MNG]

Holy shit Baked, the Superjoo comic is the funniest shit I've seen in a long time. I'd always kind of seen Undyzog as something like the Hebrew Hammer but nerdier
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317640/

All hail the Urkobold!

[Elemenope]

I thought it was over with him...but it never ends...

He is certainly unworthy to use the name "James Woods".

[MNG]

James Wood's name should indeed not be invoked in vain. Have you seen him in Sergio Leone's epic gansta film, Once Upon a Time in America?

Hell, he even rocks in my daughter's Hercules film.

[Elemenope]

Have you seen him in Sergio Leone's epic gansta film, Once Upon a Time in America?

Good flick.

[James Woods]

Ooo, a piece of candy.

Ooo, a piece of candy.

Ooo, a piece of candy.

Ooo, a piece of candy.

Ooo, a piece of candy.

[Elemenope]

Ooo, a piece of candy.

I just saw that episode of Family Guy last night. Hilarious.

[BakedPenguin]

MNG - thanks - but admit it, you just like the call out. I was going to have him "unmask" you to reveal Yassir Arafat, but the Photoshop work would have been too much.

Also, Woods was good in True Believer. Given Balko's writings, it seems like a documentary now.

[BakedPenguin]

I should probably say "unmasked in his dreams as Yassir Arafat", since: people who disagree with Israeli foreign policy != anti Semites.

[MNG]

Well, we all know Yassir was smuggled out of the compound and his death was staged. He now resides with his pal Hitler in Argentina distributing anti-Semitism throughout the world and working on the second holocaust with Ken Roth. So it is plausible. Only Superjoo stands in their way...

[MNG]

Oh, thanks for the True Believer reference. I just read the wiki and it looks good. Checked and my library has it, should run over and get it when they open up tomorrow.

[Ken Shultz]

"As I've said before, those patriotic, non anti-Semitic Libertarians should break of from what is now Libertarianism and form their own movement."

Yeah, one of the big problems with libertarians is that we're a monolithic block--and we all agree on everything...

Actually, if two random libertarians find that they agree on something, chances are it's because one of them misunderstood what the other one was saying.

[DreamSlayer]

If we're talking about Middle Eastern metal bands (and it seems as though we've forgotten for the moment), it doesn't get much better than Israel's own Orphaned Land:

http://www.orphaned-land.com/

Anti-Semites, discuss.

[zoltan]

I'm so happy MaxHats said this but I have to repeat it: all people, Jews and Arabs included, are descended from apes.

[Mel Gibson]

"I'm really, really sorry about your big noses. I'm really sorry about how greedy you are. But most of all I'm really sorry about your dirty, underhanded, back-stabbing ways. Your number one dirty Jew fan, Mel Gibson."

[Hasidic Peter]

"You know, I went in a store the other day and the guy wanted 800 bucks for a TV, but I us-ed him down to 500."

[zoltan]

So if this is indeed the weekend thread: here's an update on the Dymond Milburn case. Remember the 12-year-old girl who was beat up by three grown male, plainsclothes police officers. Her trial closes tomorrow--in which she has been accused of assaulting police officers.

[Neu Mejican]

zoltan | February 8, 2009, 2:31pm | #
I'm so happy MaxHats said this but I have to repeat it: all people, Jews and Arabs included, are descended from apes.

More technically. All humans ARE apes.
Even wikipedia level of expertise recognizes that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape

[zoltan]

Thanks, NM, for correcting my moron slip of the day.

[The Expatriate]

re: MNG
Yeah, because I never, ever post here about anything else that riles me up, ever. It's just Israel 24 seven on my end.
I'm pretty sure that until they slaughtered a few hundred civilians I had not posted about Israel in months. But I sure posted a lot about other things. And all my anti-Semitic comments, well, there are none. Up in the right hand corner there is a search mechanism, so seek and find these comments.

Not that I've ever seen; however, I must admit I don't pay that much attention to what you write, I usually see MNG in a comment and skip to the next one.

Unless you think to criticize policies of the government of Israel is the same as anti-Semitism. Which is kind of nutty, isn't it?

I don't think you want to go there. Kaplan and Small of Yale University recently published an article in the Journal of Conflict Resolution (abstract here: http://jcr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/50/4/548), which shows that "that anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the probability that an individual is anti-Semitic, with the likelihood of measured anti-Semitism increasing with the extent of anti-Israel sentiment observed."

Now if you have your own statistical study that was published in a peer-reviewed academic journal, which counters these claims, I'd be happy to read it. Or are you just going to point out that a "Dr. Kaplan" was involved and dismiss the study as J?dische Physik?

[Elemenope]

Remember the 12-year-old girl who was beat up by three grown male, plainsclothes police officers. Her trial closes tomorrow--in which she has been accused of assaulting police officers.

Everything else aside, the comments section below the article is somewhat heartening. It looks like at least everyone can get behind the "cops fuck up and should be punished when they do" ball when it's a 12-year-old girl as a victim.

That's progress.

[kwais]

Dude,

Many questions need to be answered on BSG.

- What happened to Earth?
- What happened to Starbuck?
- Who designed the cylons in their current form?
- Who came up with the plans for the Cylons, and for the humans?

Who gave the cylons their rules? Designed their resurection ships? Programmed their behavior? Was able to make a new starbuck and her ship?

Clearly their is some Cylon knowledge and ability not shown in the Cylons we have seen.

[kwais]

Also, my take is that underzog hates Israel and is masquerading as a pro Israel dude, to defame that side.

No one is that dumb, nor that nuts.

[Elemenope]

Expat --

It would be nice if we could see that study's definitions of "extreme anti-Israeli sentiment" and "anti-Semitism". The abstract takes a stab at the first, but not the second. Also, would need to look at the methodology to find out whether they're on to something or simply full of shit.

[kwais]

If you think that Jews are just white people, no different from the rest, and that Judaism is just another stupid religion, can you be an anti semite?

It seems the term wouldn't fit.

[SIV]

Many scientists, including anthropologists, use the term hominid to mean humans and their direct and near-direct bipedal ancestors.

You're not a moron on this one zoltan. Apparently, in taxonomy, they've "dumbed the test down" to genetics.Where's my pitchfork and torch?

[Virgil]

It should also be pretty obvious that "anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the probability that an individual is anti-Semitic" is substantially different from "to criticize policies of the government of Israel is the same as anti-Semitism." It's the difference between significant correlation and one-to-one matching. it's not exactly a subtle difference, but it certainly is something that people like The Expatriate find it very convenient to obfuscate when they feel like smearing someone as an anti-Semite. And it's a pretty good indicator that someone like The Expatriate isn't really worth paying attention to.

[DNG]

I usually see MNG in a comment and skip to the next one.

Likewise

[The Expatriate]

re: Elemenope
I agree. Unfortunately, they want 20 bucks to access the PDF for one day! The Uni I teach at carries the journal, but to access it online via JSTOR you have to be at a computer located on campus, so I can't answer your questions until Monday at least.

[Neu Mejican]

SIV,

SIV | February 8, 2009, 4:55pm | #
Many scientists, including anthropologists, use the term hominid to mean humans and their direct and near-direct bipedal ancestors.

You're not a moron on this one zoltan. Apparently, in taxonomy, they've "dumbed the test down" to genetics.Where's my pitchfork and torch?

Are you trying to claim that humans are not apes?

Do you have a substantial basis for wanting the taxonomy to distinguish between humans and other great apes...beyond the degree that it already does at the appropriate level?

[zoltan]

Yes, those mere "genes" are so inconsequential and insignificant. I await your further enlightening comments.

And, LMNOP, did you read all those comments?!!? Half of them are people saying she was a drug mule or prostitute or both and that the cops had every right to "subdue" her physically if she was fighting back. Because if she was a 12-year-old prostitute/drug mule/both then she had no right to fight back against the police and the police had every right to violently detain her.

[Right Wing Realist]

Since we're discussing anti-semitism, I never realized that "Asian" kids were so violent:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGQwZTA3MTM4ZTY4ZjczZjJmYjgwNjE2ZjlkZTMxYzc=

[The Expatriate]

re: Virgil

Who said MNG was definitively an anti-Semite? As I don't possess the ability to peer into someone's heart, at least via TCP/IP, I doubt we could ever truly know his true feelings on the subject. I was just cautioning him against persuing a certain line of argument. Therefore, I kindly ask you to stop putting words in my mouth.

By the way, you're not nearly as witty as you think you are.

[SIV]

NM,

I was referring to this:
Until about 1960, the hominoids were usually divided into two families: humans and their extinct relatives in Hominidae, the other apes in Pongidae.

They were still teaching this when I took physical anthropology in the early 80s

[Virgil]

Bullshit, Expatriate. It's painfully obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills that the purpose of your sentence "Or are you just going to point out that a "Dr. Kaplan" was involved and dismiss the study as J?dische Physik?" was to strongly imply that MNG was an anti-Semite. Hiding behind completely implausible claims that you don't "definitively...know his true feelings" and you were "just cautioning him" only serves to highlight your glaring intellectual dishonesty.

"By the way, you're not nearly as witty as you think you are."

Thanks so much for your opinion; I certainly value it highly, as it's clear from your posts that you're quite the purveyor of wit.

By the way, the people who read your drivel here aren't nearly as stupid as you think we are.

[zoltan]

I like Virgil. Expatriate seems like a tool. No need to be smarmy over the internet. Unless it's really funny.

[kwais]

DNG | February 8, 2009, 4:57pm | #
I usually see MNG in a comment and skip to the next one.

Likewise

MNG, Neu Mejican, Joe, and to some extent BDB are our resident socialists.

They believe as do the majority of Americans on the role of government.

And they express it well, and well reasoned.

Ignore to your own peril.

[Elemenope]

And, LMNOP, did you read all those comments?!!? Half of them are people saying she was a drug mule or prostitute or both and that the cops had every right to "subdue" her physically if she was fighting back. Because if she was a 12-year-old prostitute/drug mule/both then she had no right to fight back against the police and the police had every right to violently detain her.

I read the first twenty or so, and extrapolated. Some people are dicks just to be dicks. I think you'd be hard pressed to find one non-cop commenter in person who would be willing to assert any of those things.

[Ken Shultz]

"I read the first twenty or so, and extrapolated. Some people are dicks just to be dicks. I think you'd be hard pressed to find one non-cop commenter in person who would be willing to assert any of those things."

I hope you're right, but I don't know about that.

I think the "If you didn't want to be tazed, then you should have done what you were told" sentiment is pretty common.

[The Expatriate]

re: Virgil
Bullshit, Expatriate. It's painfully obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills that the purpose of your sentence "Or are you just going to point out that a "Dr. Kaplan" was involved and dismiss the study as J?dische Physik?" was to strongly imply that MNG was an anti-Semite. Hiding behind completely implausible claims that you don't "definitively...know his true feelings" and you were "just cautioning him" only serves to highlight your glaring intellectual dishonesty.

It's painfully obvious to anyone with basic humor comprehension skills that the purpose of my sentence was to yank MNG's chain. Your inability to realize that only serve to highlight your glaring (and undeserved) sense of moral self-righteousness.

So, good day to you, sir; I have no desire to continue responding to your continuously unproductive correspondence.

re:kwais
They believe as do the majority of Americans on the role of government.

Well, it's a good thing I'm an 'expatriate' then!

And they express it well, and well reasoned.

I respectfully disagree.

[Taktix?]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find one non-cop commenter in person who would be willing to assert any of those things.

I'm just amazed they can get to a website on teh intertubez...

[MNG]

Ex-pat
In trying to refute my assertion that one can easily be anti-Israel (and I really don't know what "anti-Israel" means, if it means "opposes a lot of things the Israeli government does then I am that, but it could mean a lot, eh) you cited a single academic study purporting to show a that anti-Israel sentiment predicts anti-Semitism, and you DIDN'T EVEN READ THE ARTICLE in question? I mean, you have no idea how the variables were conceptualized and operationalized, what statistical analysis was engaged in and how it was done, etc? And you skip over my comments? Uh, yeah...

"Not that I've ever seen"

Dude, I'd say my arguments about Israeli policy are greatly outnumbered by my enthusiastic defenses of unions and animal welfare alone. But you claim to not read most of my comments but then accuse me of monomania in their content. Uh, yeah, again.

[MNG]

kwais 2 4:52

Well said. It always amazes me that folks would not be inviting of people like me, joe, BDB, etc. I mean, if not for us it strikes me most threads would look like this:

"Man, our government does so many things it shouldn't do, and does so much of it poorly!"
"Dude, I agree!"
"So do I!"
"I absolutely agree!"
"Likewise."
Etc.

"They believe as do the majority of Americans on the role of government.

And while I can see how libertarians would see me as a socialist I have to say, I do not believe in the abolition of private property; I do not beleive that inequality can be eradicated nor would that be a good thing (it would destroy incentive structures that benefit mankind); and it would be hard to find a civil liberty topic where any libertarian and myself would be in disagreement. I actually post here because I susbscribe to and read Reason magazine...

Well, it's a good thing I'm an 'expatriate' then!"

One has to wonder what country could he possibly be in that has a MORE libertarian mindset than the U.S.? I can totally see how a libertarian would find a great deal of trouble with the U.S., but I should think it's closer to libertopia than most other countries I can think of.

[Virgil]

Blah blah blah.... Whatever, Expatriate. You're a lying hack, and what's worse you're not even a talented or interesting one, unlike some of the other hacks that frequent H&R. (I mean, for fuck's sake - you're called on a lie and the best you can come up with is that you were just "yanking MNG's chain"? Really? Even the incessant troll parodies are more entertaining and original than that.) There never was any real prospect for productive correspondence for that simple reason: you're a lying hack.

"So, good day to you, sir; I have no desire to continue...."

Yeah, if only the entire blog could be so lucky.

[MNG]

Here is the complete study:
http://www.yale.edu/isps/seminars/antisemitism/2005-06/kaplan.pdf

A few comments. Like many studies, it's not perfect, but it it's not a waste either. It strikes me as interesting. I note that the data was collected via an Anti-Defamation League initiative, which certainly makes me question it a bit (but that's no definitive reason to shoot down its findings). Second, I note they give the odds ratios but I cannot find their R squared, which is no definitive concern but I can tell you that in some of the work I've done we do that when the R squared is not very impressive. Third, they admit the study is open to problems around issue of non-response bias. Fourth, their Anti-Semitism measure (which seems to be a scale, but I don't see an alpha given for its reliability) is certainly open to charges of response set problems. Fifth, they certainly need more variables to hold constant. Sixth, they seem to find that European Muslims really skew the results here, and interestingly they report that Jews in the survey had a higher level of anti-Semitism than Christians surveyed (which by itself makes me wary of their anti-Semitism measure). And lastly, in regards to my particular case, I'm not European (this study had an all European sample) but more importantly using their "anti-Israel" scale I would score a 1 out of 4 (I don't think the IDF has a policy of directly targeting civilians [I think they engage in actions which are bound to harm many civilians and I deplore that, but that is not the same as deliberately targeting], as I've repeatedly said on H&R I don't think there is ANY justification for Palestinian suicide bombers to target Israeli civilians [my entire beef with Israeli policy is the harm to civilians they do], and I don't think Israel is more responsible for "the past three years of violence" meaning 2001-4 [the data collection for the study was done in 2004]).

[The Expatriate]

re: MNG

and you DIDN'T EVEN READ THE ARTICLE in question?

Who said I've never read the article? I said I can't answer Elemenope's questions because I don't happen to have that particular issue Journal of Conflict Resolution handy on my bookshelf at home. Do you subscribe to academic journals and have them sent to your home, MNG?

But you claim to not read most of my comments but then accuse me of monomania in their content.

For crying out loud, get over yourself. This is not Underzog you're dealing with here. Do you honestly believe that "Now, I'll be the first person to agree with you that MNG and others of his ilk have an obsession with Israel (aka. Blood Libel 2.0) that borders on monomania." had anything other than a slightly flippant tone? Do you have any pragmatic competence in English? (If you're not a native speaker of English, then I apologize.) You do realize that when analyzing an utterance for its meaning, you must take the context of the utterance into account when determining the the speaker's intentions, feelings and beliefs, don't you?

Nevertheless, the fact that the topic you chose when you misinterpreted this thread as the "weekend open thread" and dragged it down into the clusterfuck it has become through was events in Israel and Sri Lanka doesn't speak well towards you not being monomanic. However, as I've just brought up the importance of pragmatic context, I'll refrain from making further presuppositions.

Namo Buddhaye.

[MNG]

Yeah Ex-Pat, when you alluded to my "obsession" about Israel as "Blood Libel 2.0" and "bordering on monomania" I needed to understand the "context" of those comments...You're full of shit on that one, my monomanic obsession with Israel would be obvious to those who read my many passionate posts on many other issues here on H&R, but as you say you don't even read them most of the time, so that's a foolish as well as slanderous comments, and the "Blood Libel" comment, well, we all know what you were implying there ("flippantly" for sure, but so what, people imply nasty things about people in a "flippant" tone all the time, that makes them no less nasty).

As to your latter point, interestingly one would think that it would be hard to prove my "monomania" towards Israel by pointing to a post in which I spent most of the time talking about...Sri Lanka...Maybe my "monomanic" focus is not on Israel after all, but on human rights in general?

[MNG]

I mean, if were to say "Expatriate probably likes nooses and flaming crosses" it would be flippant, but it would be a nasty slander, one fairly equivalent to you implying that my "monomania" is "Blood Libel 2.0" (Blood libel being the bigoted historically recurrent charge that Jews sacrificed and ate Christian babies that resulted in the killing of many Jews).

I think Virgil called you right upthread. You're full of manure.

And for the rest of the thread, here's an interesting rejoinder to the Small and Kaplan article: http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=396#

[Elemenope]

Expatriate --

Not to poke my nose in an entirely retarded argument or anything, but sarcasm, flippancy, et al. is hazardous on teh Internetz for precisely the reason that interpretive issues are amplified. MNG has no knowledge of your attitude or intent when you write what you write (nor, for that matter, anything else). Given the context in which they were written (esp. since you were giving them as a sort of cover for Underzog's insane rantings about MNG's purported anti-Semitism), it is not at all clear what you meant by them, and MNG's (and to a far lesser extent, Virgil's) reactions were eminently justified.

[MNG]

Kwais
How is that legal issue working out? I think I can confidently say that we are all rooting for you. It's complete bullshit what they pulled on you.

[The Expatriate]

re: MNG 8:02pm

Nice to see that, like me, you have nothing better to do on a Sunday night. Ha ha!

Thank you for finding the full-text of the article. However, I must point out that the pdf is of the draft. I first encountered the research when it was published a year later.

Third, they admit the study is open to problems around issue of non-response bias.
Of course, any study of such a topic would suffer from the same problem.

Fourth, their Anti-Semitism measure (which seems to be a scale, but I don't see an alpha given for its reliability) is certainly open to charges of response set problems. Fifth, they certainly need more variables to hold constant.
When I go to work tomorrow, I can get the published article from the library to see if they address this, if you'd like. However, given the ephemeral nature of Internet discussion, I doubt anyone would be interested in continuing.

and interestingly they report that Jews in the survey had a higher level of anti-Semitism than Christians surveyed (which by itself makes me wary of their anti-Semitism measure).

What, you've never heard of such concepts as internalized racism and cultural cringe?

but more importantly using their "anti-Israel" scale I would score a 1 out of 4 (I don't think the IDF has a policy of directly targeting civilians [I think they engage in actions which are bound to harm many civilians and I deplore that, but that is not the same as deliberately targeting], as I've repeatedly said on H&R I don't think there is ANY justification for Palestinian suicide bombers to target Israeli civilians [my entire beef with Israeli policy is the harm to civilians they do], and I don't think Israel is more responsible for "the past three years of violence" meaning 2001-4

Duly noted. As I said, I'm not Underzog and I think we're having two different arguments here. Where you grinded my gears is when you brought this whole Israel thing into a thread that had nothing to do with it. (And why did everyone forget about Sri Lanka? What, we Buddhists don't count?)

[kwais]

About BSG (which is by far the most important topic on this thread)

OK, leave some larger questions unanswered yes, but those that I mentioned, it would be lazy not to answer.

Perhaps the show shouldn't answer how Saul Tigh could have possibly been a Cylon. Or exactly how smart the metal Cylons are allowed to be so that they can be smart enough to fight humans, but not to rebel against skin jobs.

[Elemenope]

Or exactly how smart the metal Cylons are allowed to be so that they can be smart enough to fight humans, but not to rebel against skin jobs.

Um, that one *was* answered. See the episode "Six of One".

[kwais]

How is that legal issue working out? I think I can confidently say that we are all rooting for you. It's complete bullshit what they pulled on you.

Thanks MNG,

I plead to "disorderly conduct". The lawyer said I could beat the charge, that I was legally in the clear. But it would take time and money.

The charge that I took is the equivalent of a traffic ticket.

I have mixed feelings about it, I could have fought it. I should have fought it. But it was a felony, and no guarantee that justice would prevail. (many instances on this website of it not prevailing). I did not break the law, but I was out of my element.

By taking the charge that I did, I forfeited the chance to sue the police for wrongful arrest.

[kwais]

Um, that one *was* answered. See the episode "Six of One".

It opened more questions than it answered IMO.

[Episiarch]

Perhaps the show shouldn't answer how Saul Tigh could have possibly been a Cylon.

The Cylons disappeared 40 years ago, right? Tigh is older than that. Whoops! Retcon time!

Seriously, dudes, stop expecting perfect continuity. Let it go. It's very difficult to do on a serial. Star Trek has failed miserably, for instance. Best move is to lighten up, lean back, and enjoy the ride. Kind of like I did with your mom, LMNOP.

[Elemenope]

The Cylons disappeared 40 years ago, right? Tigh is older than that. Whoops! Retcon time!

Nah. I thought it was pretty clear from

1. None of the seven knew what the five looked like
2. Knowing what we know about Earth, that it was populated by cylons, perhaps for hundreds of years

...that the five are from a different batch altogether, probably not even technically related to the seven.

[The Expatriate]

re: MNG
Yeah Ex-Pat, when you alluded to my "obsession" about Israel as "Blood Libel 2.0" and "bordering on monomania"

*sighs* Yep, it's all about YOU. And when I say "and others of his ilk" that means YOU too. And because you're such a passionate, serious person, it's imperative that every comment to you must be sincere and solem, lest I risk a stentorian tongue-lashing by Virgil and MNG.

I mean, if were to say "Expatriate probably likes nooses and flaming crosses"

Bonus points for assuming I'm white. (I'm not.)

re: Elemenope
Given the context in which they were written (esp. since you were giving them as a sort of cover for Underzog's insane rantings about MNG's purported anti-Semitism),
I disagree with your characterization of my comments, but I appreciate what you are trying to say. Therefore, I'll offer the olive branch to MNG and "others of his ilk" and end this(But not Virgil, he and his Aeneid can go fuck themselves.)

[MNG]

Expat
I think that first comment of yours was out of line and your later minimization of it a bit much, but you've got some very intelligent things to say and you've been much more collegial, so I apologize for my harsh response upthread.

A few brief comments before I have to go watch a film with the family:

"Of course, any study of such a topic would suffer from the same problem." I sort of agree, but here they did not even have any info on how many refused to respond, and that's never a good thing. But not always a fatal thing.

They give the anti-Semitism items in their index, there's not much else they can say but to admit that a potential response set bias exists, but again, one finds these kind of things in peer-reviewed studies quite a bit. None of them are perfect and few are worthless, and I'd say this one falls into that category.

"Nevertheless, the fact that the topic you chose when you misinterpreted this thread as the "weekend open thread" and dragged it down into the clusterfuck it has become through was events in Israel and Sri Lanka doesn't speak well towards you not being monomanic."

I apologized for this lat night at 7:40. H&r used to have a thread every weekend that was understood to be open topic. That went away when the election occurred. But people, and people other than me, still use the last post on Friday for that. As I said, I was more moved by the Sri Lanka thing, as I had read of the hospital being hit several times that morning. But no one moved to defend the Sri Lankan government, so no more posts. What can you say?

[Elemenope]

It opened more questions than it answered IMO.

How so? I thought from the dialogue that it was clear that they had the potential to become fully aware, but are prevented normally by having an implanted inhibitor. When they take the inhibitor out, they stop obeying orders (such as when the centurion went aggro when they unplugged the hybrid) and are capable of entertaining abstract notions (such as when Baltar was "witnessing" to one of them; it seemed to be listening intently). They also exhibit preferences (choosing sides in the civil war by wasting the ones, fours, and fives) and moral rectitude (they chose the side they did because they were "unhappy" with the decision to lobotomize the raiders).

[MNG]

Epi
Before I go, massive props on looking up the TOS episode where they ride each other like horses (Plato's Stepchildren.) Is there any cultural thing you don't know?

[The Expatriate]

re: MNG
Thank you for the apology and I would like to apologize if I offended you.

But no one moved to defend the Sri Lankan government, so no more posts. What can you say?

Well, there is no defense. The Sri Lakan government has used these heavy-handed tactics against the Tamils for decades now.

[zoltan]

I think the "If you didn't want to be tazed, then you should have done what you were told" sentiment is pretty common.

Or in the case of Oscar Grant, "If you didn't want to be shot and killed while lying on the ground with a neck at the back of your neck, then you should have done what you were told."

Also, come oooonnnnn, I already had to watch the entire series of Deadwood (excellent, I might add) and now I have to watch a FOUR-SEASON series of BSG just to keep up with you all?!?!!? How is one to do all of this. Personally, I'm into the Office, Psych and Boston Legal right now (though I try to ignore that latter's annoyingly blatant and unapologetic liberalism).

Also, fuck that Virgil guy (the original one, not the current commenter on H&R). Does anyone seriously 1) want their fabled culture to be founded by a guy whose city got whomped by the Greeks, 2) even think Rome could live up to that anyway.

[zoltan]

I mean, if were to say "Expatriate probably likes nooses and flaming crosses"

Bonus points for assuming I'm white. (I'm not.)

Shouldn't there be a word for this? I mean, we say someone has "Godwinned" the thread if any one is compared to Hitler or if Hitler is brought up (even though this is not what Godwin's Law originally stood for). Shouldn't there be a word for the idea that "As a Usenet H&R discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving white supremacists or one of their leaders approaches one." Since Mike Godwin came up with it and he got his name on it, I think this should be zoltan's law.

[Neu Mejican]

Elemenope | February 8, 2009, 8:50pm | #
The Cylons disappeared 40 years ago, right? Tigh is older than that. Whoops! Retcon time!

Nah. I thought it was pretty clear from

1. None of the seven knew what the five looked like
2. Knowing what we know about Earth, that it was populated by cylons, perhaps for hundreds of years

...that the five are from a different batch altogether, probably not even technically related to the seven.

I agree.
It seems to me the humans on earth developed skin-job cylons as immortality machines, then their toasters rebelled and killed them. Some number make it back to the colonies and blend in hundreds of years ago. When the toasters in the colonies rebel, some of the Earth cylons side with them and create the seven models. These Earth cylons are the original programmers...the final five are Earth cylons, but seem not to know their true nature...that needs to be explained.

Or something along these lines.

[Episiarch]

Before I go, massive props on looking up the TOS episode where they ride each other like horses (Plato's Stepchildren.) Is there any cultural thing you don't know?

No. But thanks for the props. I didn't look it up, by the way. That's one of my favorite episodes.

I think you dudes are way overthinking the BSG backstory. I don't think they know. But have fun overthinking it.

[kwais]

It seems to me the humans on earth developed skin-job cylons as immortality machines, then their toasters rebelled and killed them. Some number make it back to the colonies and blend in hundreds of years ago. When the toasters in the colonies rebel, some of the Earth cylons side with them and create the seven models. These Earth cylons are the original programmers...the final five are Earth cylons, but seem not to know their true nature...that needs to be explained.

Or something along these lines.

See, I was thinking that ALL the humans were skin jobs. Made by the humans from earth a long time ago. That explains why boys and girls have the same physical strength. And some other stuff.

They just don't know it.

The final five had a special purpose, and special programming.

[Elemenope]

See, I was thinking that ALL the humans were skin jobs. Made by the humans from earth a long time ago. That explains why boys and girls have the same physical strength. And some other stuff.

They just don't know it.

Only serious problem with that theory is that the Cylons (the seven) were able to readily identify the Earth skeletons as Cylon, rather than human. Which indicates that if you know what to look for, there are easy distinguishing marks. If everyone were a Cylon, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

[Neu Mejican]

Which indicates that if you know what to look for, there are easy distinguishing marks.

For instance, cylon spinal columns glow red during sex with enough illumination to be seen through the skin.

I think "cylon tester" might not be such a bad job...

[kwais]

I think "cylon tester" might not be such a bad job

Yeah, I would need to test all the Sharon models, all the #6 models, all the Xena models,
just to make sure there wasn't an original amongst them.

[Tym]

>> Very True,
If you want 10 minute metal songs: Opeth is the king of the good stuff.

[Neu Mejican]

Kwais,

Given the glowing spine, it seems the colonies haven't figured out the joys of doggie style, else they would have found the skin jobs sooner.

[heshaojie]

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