Palin and Pollan, Together at Last

Everywhere Sarah Palin goes, animals die.

At yesterday's turkey pardoning, Gov. Palin gave an interview in front of the killing cones, where Thanksgiving dinner meets its bloody, neck-snapping doom:

The folks at Huffington Post are upset about the callousness/obliviousness of it all, but here's what I say: If it's good enough for ethical-eating poster boy Michael Pollan, it's good enough for Sarah Palin, right? (To read about Pollan's stint at a plein-air abattoir, go here and search the book for the phrase "killing cones.") Pollan wants America to be in touch with where its food comes from. Well, thanks to Sarah Palin, cable news watchers will be a little more connected with the process that brings turkey to their plates this year. Good work, Sarah!

Palin flashback: Michael Pollan probably isn't on board with this one.

Read my review of Michael Pollan's Omnivore's Dilemma (with a killing cones reference!) here.

Comments

[John]

Ann Althouse nailed this one when she said "get over it you candy asses". Where do these people think their food comes from? The grocery store? My intense desire to make people like the ones who post at HUFFPO causes me to like Palin. She drives all the right people nuts for all the right reasons.

[Pro Libertate]

Yeah, I find myself liking her, too. She's certainly different for a politician. Whether she should enter national politics is another question, though I suspect she'd do better with some time to prepare for a campaign.

[Naga Sadow]

Palin's a killing machine! She must be stopped! Oh . . . she's just hunting varmints? Nevermind.

[The Angry Optimist]

If you have the time, energy and money to spend on caring about whether turkeys get killed, maybe you should readjust your priorities.

There are people all over the world barely surviving on subsistence-level rations, and we have airheaded morons who have the stones to twaddle on about fur coats and meat.

I have never understood how true, empathetic liberals can even stand to have PETA-types in their tent. Most people in poor villages in Africa would fucking kill you for being such a self-righteous selfish prick by denying them a steak based on your screwed-up "ethics".

[PETA]

Murderers!!!

*throws red paint on John and Pro Lib*

[Doug]

Let's be sure to remind the Huffers about that spared turkey when they start bitching about people who went hungry over the holiday.

[taz]

If I remember correctly, I think that they use the Cones of Death to cut the turkey's throat, and that little basin underneath catches all of the blood that drains out.

I learned this from The Natural History of the Chicken, a documentary about people who keep chickens as pets. It is both incredibly entertaining and disturbing (most of the people are completely nuts) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkxO91TLKVg

God, Sarah Palin is a shitty politician.

[Naga Sadow]

Not funny Doug. I will go hungry over the holidays. Mainly cuz I volunteer to work every holiday except Cinco de Mayo(May 5th) to get away from my family. Individually we are fine, but put us together and the Seventh Layer of Hell is upon us.

[Naga Sadow]

Is it free range turkey?

[Episiarch]

I saw a deer literally torn in half (like, front half and back half) on the road this morning. I have no idea what was able to do that (trucks just turn them into a lump of meat).

It made me hungry thinking about venison. Turkeys getting their heads chopped off? Child's play.

[domoarrigato]

I laughed so hard I peed my pants a little.

[Lamar]

I don't have sound on the video. Is Sarah Palin for or against hunting from airplanes?

[Just Plain Brian]

Turkeys getting their heads chopped off? Child's play.

This is why I don't like children, they're always chopping the heads off of things.

[Naga Sadow]

Episiarch,

A coked up mountain lion could do it. Check your stash, bro.

[John]

It is interesting how Palin is unbothered by it. It is like she actually knows what goes on on a farm and expected it. If I didn't know any better, I would think she is actually in touch with reality. If she had been an out of touch politician who had never seen anything outside of the four walls of her office, the whole scene would have shocked her.

I don't think this hurts her one bit. Like the weenies on HUFFPO would ever give her a chance anyway. I would also like to think that most fair minded people would look at it and say "that is where the turkeys we eat comes from what is the big deal?" To me this shows a politician utterly at ease with herself. I don't think Palin really cares whether the people on HUFFPO are shocked.

[shecky]

Jezzus... you'd think they'd have come up with a quicker way to kill those things.

[Man In Black]

I saw a deer literally torn in half (like, front half and back half) on the road this morning. I have no idea what was able to do that

Let's keep the speculation to a minimum, human.

[Episiarch]

A coked up mountain lion could do it. Check your stash, bro.

Shit! I knew I shouldn't have left Mittens home without feeding him!

[Tulpa]

I don't know. I can't really see Hillary Clinton giving a speech in front of a dumpster full of third-trimester abortion leftovers.

[John]

I am going to an event tonight and the menu includes Venison stew. God does bambi taste good. So does Babe for that matter.

[domoarrigato]

watching that guy jerk up and down on that turkey while furtively looking at Sarah over his shoulder sends me into spasms. I can't stop watching it.

[mr simple]

HuffPo is blocked at my work as Mature Content. LOL!

[Naga Sadow]

Anyone seen the comments over a HuffingtonPost? They're going rabid over there!

[capelza]

There's something Pythonesque about it...or maybe Canadian funny, did those two DJ's prank her again?

Is this the same farm where she pardoned the turkey?

"Hey, Sarah, come over here and stand in front of this bloody killiing floor...it'll make for great press!"...

[John]

Naga,

The comments over there are pretty funny. I wonder how many of them who are screaming about animal cruelty actually walk the walk and are vegitarian? It is typical liberal elite bullshit. It is cruelty to kill animals in a slaughterhouse and only an idiot scumbag would ever set food in one. But damn this turkey sandwich is great.

[Zeb]

I always found hedge trimming shears to be the tool to use when slaughtering turkeys. Nice clean cut, and you don't have to hold them down or pick them up or anything.

[domoarrigato]

Is this the same farm where she pardoned the turkey?

Yes.

[Warty]

You know, that seems like a pretty OK job. You get to be outside, you get to kill things, you get to ogle pretty ladies...what a life.

[John]

When I was a kid my grandparents had a big wheat farm in Kansas. They had a big chickenhouse for eggs and to have fresh chicken. My grandfather took me out one time when he was going to kill a chicken when I was about 6. The way you kill a chicked is cut its head off and then throw it in a big rubbermade trashcan until it stops flopping. His trick with his grandkids was to toss the chicken at you instead of the trashcan. I am telling you what, when you are six, that is pretty damn traumatic.

[Naga Sadow]

Fax your resume, Warty. Live the dream!

John,

I was gonna post but noticed how many pages it has already filled and decided against it. I don't need a ban from Huffington Post either. I would be a laughingstock around here.

[Naga Sadow]

Well, more of a laughstock.

[Old farm boy]

Take one (1) piece of tree stump..

Drive in two(2) large nails in a "V"...

Holding the bird by the legs, insert the neck in the "V" and pull....

Whack the head off with a small axe.

Don't drop the bird until it quits moving.

Wonder where the saying "runs like a chicken with it's head cut off" comes from???
Drop the bird to soon. The body WILL run!

Growing up on a farm? Priceless.

[dhex]

jesus that comments thread is pure fucking madness.

and i'm in the "palin is an idiot" camp.

[joe]

She does this this interview after the cheesy turkey-pardoning ritual?

Smooth. No, wait: smoove.

[John]

They are saying on Fox News that Hillary has accepted President McHopey's invitation to be Secretary of State. I can't wait to see how the "no blood for oil" folks plan to explain this.

[John]

It is incredibly smooth Joe. She shows again her innate ability to cause liberals to spontaneiously go bizerk and make asses of themselves. It is amazing how she can do that.

[Naga Sadow]

dhex,

No fucking joke! Did you see how long that fucking comments page is too? Sad part is that it's just gearing up!

[Just Plain Brian]

Palin and Pollan, Together at Last

"Palin, Polan, Bay of Pigs Invasion
We didn't start the fire...."

[Naga Sadow]

Thanks for the heads up John.

"It's on now BITCHS!!!"

[Mo]

I have no problem with turkey killing (that leads to turkey eatin'), but it seems like a dumb idea to accept an interview right in front of turkeys being bled. I mean, cows have to get killed for steaks, but I think it would be moronic for Biden to do an interview on the killing floor of a slaughterhouse too.

Besides, a politician standing in front of a turkey being killed just makes one think, "Fuck, they're killing the wrong turkey."

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

Of course, it's necessary for animals to reproduce for us to get the meat we eat, but how many folks think she'd give an interview in front of a turkey "breaking" and inseminating crew?
I mean, I think it'd be hilarious, but I'm not sure she'd do it.

[joe]

Of course it is, John. The Palin can do no wrong.

You know this was a brilliant move, because she did it.

That's why so many other politicians hold interviews in slaughterhouses; because of the awesome optics.

[Just Plain Brian]

Besides, a politician standing in front of a turkey being killed just makes one think, "Fuck, they're killing the wrong turkey."

We have a winner!

[John]

Why is it bad Joe? Are you a vegitarian? Do you object to slaughter houses? Do you eat meat like some people smoke pot; in private not wanting to think about where it came from? The only people who don't like this are people like you that hate her anyway. I love how it brings out so much hypocricy in people. Anyone who is not a vegitarian and objects to the slautering of animals and has a problem with this is a hypocrite. And spare me the tisk tisking about what politicians should and should not do. Should politicians never appear in front of any necessary but distastful thing?

Also, how about that Hillary Clinton nomination? I recall you saying that was a bad idea. Well, it looks like it is going to happen. I look forward to you tearing right into Obama over it. Come on Joe. This is your big chance. Tell us what an idiot Obama is for nominating her.

[arthur]

She was at the turkey farm to pardon a turkey. Perhaps on Christmas she'll issue pardons of deserving Alaskan convicts in front of the state's execution chamber, while it's in use.

[domoarrigato]

from huffpos thread:

Do they make those funnel things in a size large?

thread winner over there...

[John]

"from huffpos thread:

Do they make those funnel things in a size large?

thread winner over there..."

That is funny. Of course if someone said that about the Chosen One, HuffPO would be calling the secret Service.

[joe]

John | November 21, 2008, 3:40pm | #

Why is it bad Joe?

It's really not something you can explain; you either get why it's a bad idea for the governor to hold the happy-cheesy post turkey pardon interview in an active slaughterhouse, or you don't. I'm afraid you're just going to have to remain confused here.

I know, why doesn't she do her next press conference while she's taking a shit? Clearly, only people with some sort of bizarre hangup would have a problem with the idea of people taking a shit; ergo, it's brilliant politics for her to hold her next press availability in the stall of a hotel ladies room.

John, if Sarah Palin told you to eat a shit sandwich, not only would you eat it, you would actually convince yourself you liked it, and proclaim that anyone who says otherwise is just being partisan. Yes, this was a brilliant move. I'm sure we'll be seeing politicans' all across America holding interviews in slaughterhouses now, proving how utterly in tune you are with normal people.

[John]

Joe,

They only people who having a fit about it are jackasses like you that hate her anyway. It is a turkey farm and that is what they do at turkey farms. There is nothing obscene or private about it.

Everyone else thinks it is funny as hell. Stop taking your anger and bitterness over the Hillary nomination to State out on Palin.

[Episiarch]

I know, why doesn't she do her next press conference while she's taking a shit?

That would be beyond awesome. When politics resembles Jackass, we all win.

[Cool Cal]

This only illustrates the idiocy of the progressive horde. I remember when Palin was first nominated, and oddly, only because I have a morbid fascination with Alaskan politics, I had heard of Palin before most people had. I remember thinking that there are so many substantive criticisms you can make of Palin - many even before the sordid stuff started coming out. But the first things most liberals latched onto were things like, "She hunts!" "She shoots animals!" and "She eats the meat of an animal that is not sanctioned for consumption by mainstream society! (and yes, it's okay when CANADIANS do it)"

Immediately I refused to listen when any liberal complained about her actual shortcomings as a politician because they were indeed coming from a deeper knee-jerk cultural reaction to her rural ways - ways that by the way are almost indistinguishable from those of certain in the Great White North, but as I mentioned before, when non-Americans engage in said behavior it's cultural, not provincial ... unless you're a Japanese Dolphin fisherman, in which case Hayden Panatiere will be on you like white on rice!

[Other Matt]

Why is it bad Joe?

Because the turkey didn't kidnap anyone?

[dhex]

It's really not something you can explain; you either get why it's a bad idea for the governor to hold the happy-cheesy post turkey pardon interview in an active slaughterhouse, or you don't.

put me in the "don't" camp - it's folky, and more important for this particular memeplex, sends the loyal opposition into apocalyptic fits of insanity.

TEAM RED TEAM BLUE GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE

[domoarrigato]

SNL doesn't have a hair on their ass if they don't bring back Tina Fey tomorrow night and have Amy Poehler dry hump a dead turkey in a cone while she is talking.

[Jorgen]

"The Angry Optimist | November 21, 2008, 2:51pm | #
If you have the time, energy and money to spend on caring about whether turkeys get killed, maybe you should readjust your priorities.

There are people all over the world barely surviving on subsistence-level rations, and we have airheaded morons who have the stones to twaddle on about fur coats and meat.

I have never understood how true, empathetic liberals can even stand to have PETA-types in their tent. Most people in poor villages in Africa would fucking kill you for being such a self-righteous selfish prick by denying them a steak based on your screwed-up "ethics"."

TAO, can you tell me how, exactly, caring about the suffering of animals means that you don't care about the suffering of people? Just so you know, the vast majority of the world's poorest people are vegan, not out of choice but out of necessity, because animal products require vastly more land and resources to procure than do vegetable products. Providing large amounts of meat requires that either large amounts of corn or other vegetable products are fed to animals instead of people, increasing the price of food, or that vast amounts of land, most of which can support much higher volume agriculture, is used for grazing, again increasing the price of food. And by the way, us vegans really aren't asking starving villagers in Africa to give up steak when they can find it. We aren't even asking YOU to give up steak if you want to have it. We are deciding that we don't think it's worth it to subject another living being to a life of torment culminating in a painful death so that we can have a tasty morsel. And we think that maybe if a few more people did similarly, Those poor African villagers, and those poor Indian slum dwellers, and those poor Chinese factory workers might be able to afford a diet beyond a little less rice or corn or yams than it takes to subsist.

This doesn't mean that it's wrong to eat meat any more than it's wrong to fly airplanes when people don't have access to cooking fuel, but it does mean that going off on vegans for being uncaring fucks is pretty stupid and oblivious. I'm not going to apologize to anyone for thinking that it's wrong to force other conscious beings to endure lives of pain and misery and acting on that.

As for Palin, I agree with pretty much everyone else that it's totally stupid and hypocritical of people who eat turkey to be shocked that she'd watch a turkey be killed. I'm no fan of Pollan, but I do think that being willfully ignorant of what you're eating and proud of it is obnoxious. At the same time, talking about how brutal your campaign was while standing in front of an animal that's about to get its throat slit shows slightly lacking perspective.

[Silentz]

How do they propose we kill turkeys for consumption? Starve them do death?

[joe]

I think it's going to be a mailer, John.

A shot of Sarah Palin, with a turkey right in the middle of getting its throat cut in the background. Maybe with some text about slashing the state budget; then again, she might go for a anti-envrionmental message about "chicken littles."

Totally, that's exactly what she'll do, because visuals of your candidate standing in front of animals in the process of being slaughtered is the type of thing every campaign manager dreams about.

I'm just bein' mean ol' partisan joe here, saying it was dumb to do the interview there. Really, it's going to be the next big thing in political messaging. Next up will be Charles Grassley, talking about entitlement reform as the Mexican hit cows with the stun gun. Truly, a new dawn of political image-making has arrived, and I'm just too out of touch to realize it.

[John]

Cool Cal,

I think you are exactly right. There are substantive complaints to make about Palin. But those complaints are no more substantive than the ones you can make about most politicians, especially ones who have ran for VP. But liberals like Joe don't dislike Palin because of those complaints. They hate Palin over culture and nothing more. They are as a group the biggest bunch of hypocritical narrowminded snobs on earth. Palin causes them to reflexively reveal all of their most unpleasent traits.

[Jorgen]

Sorry that was so long. The Angry Optimist just sort of hit a nerve.

[joe]

dhex,

You realize that judging the political smarts of something by whether it "throws the other team into fits of insanity" is pretty much the definition of partisan blinkers, right?

[joe]

John, you say yourself, proudly, that you like this and think it was a great idea purely because of the reaction it produced in people at the Huffington Post, and you're accusing other people of basing their political opinions on culture war, rah rah team crap?

Whatever.

[John]

Joe,

In case you missed it, the campaign ended the first Tuesday in November. She is a governor and was pardoning a turkey. Who cares what was in the background? Only bigoted twits like you who hate her anyway care. As I said, she causes people like you to reveal all of your most unpleasent traits. It is amazing the she is able to do it, but she does.

[SIV]

I feel as if I should have something to offer here as bloody dead domesticated fowl are involved.......

How bout that Hope and Change of picking Geithner as Treasury Secretary?
It will be like Bush is still President!

[domoarrigato]

I find myself agreeing with joe here. It was pretty stupid to do the interview there - especially after pardoning the turkey. I am not squeamish at all, but the idea of pardoning a turkey and then giving an interview infront of them being killed just tickles that dark dark humor spot for me - while means it was probably a dumb political move.

[Jerry Schermerhorn]

The same people having fits about this video are the same ones that want pictures of our dead soldiers available on every media outlet that exists. Hypocritical assholes, put the cycle of life before human lifes.

[joe]

Who cares what's in the background during the publicity shots politicans' organize?

Ummmm...politicians? Their handlers? Their supporters?

What an idiotic question. Have you ever seen how much politicians and campaigns spend on backdrops? Like the ones that Bush started using, where the same phrase is printed over and over on some colorful backdrop?

You're either completely ignorant of the entire field of political media, or your still so giddy over The Palin that you've lost all abiity to think straight.

Who cares what's in the background during a media event a politician and her media people put together? Did you actually ask that?

[Hogan]

Last year I had the pleasure of a drive down a rural road during which the pickup in front of me stopped and the folks got out because there was a wild turkey in the right of way that they then clubbed to death with a stick. gobblegobblegobble!

[joe]

But, no, it's not possible that it's bad optics to have your candidate giving an interview and animals are being slaughtered, because something something something about liberals.

Yeah, that's it. Keep 'em coming, John. I can't understand why some Senate campaign hasn't snapped you up yet. You've got a real eye for what sells.

[The Angry Optimist]

Jorgen:

Not all land is interchangeable. You're assuming that if we stopped using land and cattle-feed grade grain, that there would suddenly be a glut of crops available for human consumption.

We are deciding that we don't think it's worth it to subject another living being to a life of torment culminating in a painful death so that we can have a tasty morsel.

Just ignore the millions of animals who get caught in combines every year. You're aware of this, but I bet you don't grow your own grain to make sure it does not happen, either.

[Hogan]

Who cares what's in the background during a media event a politician and her media people put together?

Seriously who does?

God that idiot Palin woman! If only they had brought out an enormous backdrop for her to stand in front of that said "Family. Tradition. Pardoning Turkeys." repeating diagonally. Doesn't she know the game?!

[The Angry Optimist]

There are plenty of things that you can spend time, energy and money on. If you spend it on PETA, you have a messed-up sense of what does and does not help humanity.

[SugarFree]

I will be brining my turkeys, as usual, a honey-bourbon brine with cinnamon, cloves, black pepper, and sage leaves. After rinsing them and salting the skin, I lift the skin away from the meat and rub softened butter in between to promote the rendering of the fat and to crisp the skin. The cavity of the birds will be stuffed with slices of apples and onions. I am planning on three rounds of hickory smoking, with a target time of two hours and internal temp of 155. (Carry over to 160 under tented aluminum foil.)

In addition, we'll be serving sausage and apple stuffing, fresh cranberry relish, cranberry-grappa jelly, whipped potatoes with chipotle butter, sweet potato casserole with a coconut-pecan crust, flash fried haricot vert, and a pineapple-habanero-lime dipping sauce for the meat.

[Jorgen]

"The Angry Optimist | November 21, 2008, 4:08pm | #
Jorgen:

Not all land is interchangeable. You're assuming that if we stopped using land and cattle-feed grade grain, that there would suddenly be a glut of crops available for human consumption."

It's true that not all land is interchangeable, and it's true that some dry grasslands that are suitable for grazing are not great for growing wet crops. It's also true that a whole heck of a lot of people could go off of meat entirely before we'd shift from grazing to agriculture on any land that can provide more nutrition from grazing. By the time that becomes an issue, if it does, we'll probably have sufficiently strong drought resistant crop varieties that fairly dry land can support more people with agriculture than with grazing.

"We are deciding that we don't think it's worth it to subject another living being to a life of torment culminating in a painful death so that we can have a tasty morsel.

Just ignore the millions of animals who get caught in combines every year. You're aware of this, but I bet you don't grow your own grain to make sure it does not happen, either."

I'm perfectly aware of the millions of animals that get caught in combines every year. I'm also perfectly aware of the millions of animals who die due to habitat loss because of the farmland that supports me and the space I take up. I'm not pure, and I think it's silly that some vegans do think that they're pure. I am, however, doing what makes sense for me in my life to avoid causing harm to other sensing beings. And I do think that a vegan diet does less harm than an animal diet, because those combines mow through field mice and the like to feed cows and chickens corn as well. And because I think that quickly killing an animal that has lived in a way that it can act on its natural instincts is less harmful to subjecting an animal to a highly constrained life where it can't act on its instincts.

[Other Matt]

SNL doesn't have a hair on their ass if they don't bring back Tina Fey tomorrow night and have Amy Poehler dry hump a dead turkey in a cone while she is talking.

God that would be hilarious.

[JW]

It was stupid in that conventional wisdom sort of way, but I am eternally grateful for her doing it. This video is absolutely fucking classic. It's one for the annals of time.

[MattXIV]

I'll point out that the local news cameraman was the one who framed the shot and the shot could have easily been made without including any turkey carnage by either a closer zoom, moving a bit to the right, or having Palin move a bit to the left. She probably assumed the cameraman had chosen a position where the killing cones weren't in the shot, seeing as competent cameramen avoid including distracting background activity while taping an interview when possible.

That said, feel free to resume culture war jackassery at your leasure.

[The Angry Optimist]

And I do think that a vegan diet does less harm than an animal diet

Less harm? Less harm to what?

And because I think that quickly killing an animal that has lived in a way that it can act on its natural instincts is less harmful to subjecting an animal to a highly constrained life where it can't act on its instincts.

Dead is dead. Have you ever seen something come out of the combine head? It doesn't look less "harmful" to me.

[Just Plain Brian]

I'll point out that the local news cameraman was the one who framed the shot and the shot could have easily been made without including any turkey carnage by either a closer zoom, moving a bit to the right, or having Palin move a bit to the left.

Entirely correct.

Personally, as a former local news cameraman, that's the thing I find most amusing about this.

[Brandybuck]

It's about time you candy assed libruls learned where there food came from! And don't think your tofu salad is any more ethical. The put shit on them to make them grow, then pound the shit out of them, then let them ferment until they small like shit, and finally process them until they have the consistancy of shit. You are what you eat!

p.s. One of the funniest sites of my childhood was watching my mom chase after a headless chicken...

[The Angry Optimist]

I do think it is funny that half of the hysteria of HuffPo's comments are "WHY WON'T SHE GO AWAY??! WAAAA!"

She'll go away once Team Blue stops paying attention to her. Twits.

[Jorgen]

The Angry Optimist | November 21, 2008, 4:25pm | #
"And I do think that a vegan diet does less harm than an animal diet

Less harm? Less harm to what?"

Less harm to animals.

"And because I think that quickly killing an animal that has lived in a way that it can act on its natural instincts is less harmful to subjecting an animal to a highly constrained life where it can't act on its instincts.

Dead is dead. Have you ever seen something come out of the combine head? It doesn't look less "harmful" to me."

Would you rather live your entire life in a dark box with several other people crammed tightly enough together so that only one of you can move your arms at a time, only to be killed and eaten at the end of it, or would you rather live out in the open where you could be a person, with all of the pleasure and pain that entails, only to be killed at the end by a giant blade. The reason people talk about what a person's life is like after they die, rather than just discussing whether their cause of death was a particularly painful one, or just saying that it's sad that the person is dead, is that what quality of life is available before death matters.

[dhex]

You realize that judging the political smarts of something by whether it "throws the other team into fits of insanity" is pretty much the definition of partisan blinkers, right?

hence "more importantly, for this particular memeplex."

i have all the bases covered, broseph.

[dhex]

"I will be brining my turkeys, as usual, a honey-bourbon brine with cinnamon, cloves, black pepper, and sage leaves. "

that sounds fucking delicious!

[WLC]

What MattXIV said.

[The Angry Optimist]

Less harm to animals...but you're still not doing all you can do.

Why not?

Humans are omnivores. Asking humans not to eat meat is like asking them not to have sex for fun. It's in our genes to eat meat.

Jorgen, you can go on ahead and try to convince me with emotional prayers to the life and well-being of cute forest critters. I still maintain that if you spend time going after veal producers instead of sending aid to Third-World countries, you care more about animals than people.

[Neu Mejican]

If you are not listening to her, the video is less funny.

If you don't note the visual context when the words "on the chopping block" are said, you miss half the humor...classic.

It's like Andy Kaufman is organizing her press.

[The Angry Optimist]

You realize that judging the political smarts of something by whether it "throws the other team into fits of insanity" is pretty much the definition of partisan blinkers, right?

On the other hand, given dhex's complete lack of partisan blinkers, he could just be making fun of you for talking about the Governor of Alaska....she lost, remember? Or are you suffering from withdrawals?

[Neu Mejican]

TAO,

I think you are off base here.

Compassion is not a zero-sum resource.

Jorgen can care about how animals are treated without diminishing his care for the suffering of humans.

Now, time is a zero-sum resource, so if you want to criticize based on the way people use their time, I guess that is fair, but if there is a moral dimension to how we treat others, at least part of that seems to adhere to the way we treat animals.

The concept of cruelty to animals is fairly wide-spread cross culturally.

No?

[SugarFree]

dhex,

Brining is so easy. Even something as simple as 1/2 cup kosher salt and a 1/2 cup brown sugar dissolved in a gallon of water for the turkey to rest in the night before makes a huge difference to moistness of the bird. My turkeys have converted at least 8 "I don't like turkey" people. And don't over-cook them. All the bad bacteria in a turkey dies at 145, and the flavor dies at 170. Most tell you to take it to 180. I want turkey, not sand.

[ellipsis]

Alaska is one of those states, like Wyoming and Idaho, where this actually helps her image instead of hurting it. But it doesn't make for a good national publicity. Which is why I think the best she's ever going to be able to muster is a senator or representative.

I lived in Idaho for a while, and I can tell you this is good politics in that section of the world. (Think John times 100-200k.) Which is why wild western states rarely produce national figureheads.

[Jorgen]

"The Angry Optimist | November 21, 2008, 4:35pm | #
Less harm to animals...but you're still not doing all you can do.

Why not?

Humans are omnivores. Asking humans not to eat meat is like asking them not to have sex for fun. It's in our genes to eat meat.

Jorgen, you can go on ahead and try to convince me with emotional prayers to the life and well-being of cute forest critters. I still maintain that if you spend time going after veal producers instead of sending aid to Third-World countries, you care more about animals than people."

I don't do all I can because I put my well being above the well being of others. It's the same reason that I pass homeless people and don't buy them a sandwich.

I assume you also think that someone who spends their time fighting for lower taxes instead of trying to feed starving children cares more about rich people's taxes in the first world than they do about starving children. Or someone who spends their time playing baseball instead of educating third world farmers cares more about baseball than they do about human welfare. Or that someone who spends their time yelling at a vegan on the internet instead of adopting foster kids cares more about being a dickhead than about the well being of children. It doesn't actually take me any extra time to be a vegan, and it saves me money, but if I want to spend my time yelling at veal producers, it's my right to do so, and it doesn't prove that I don't care about people any more than the fact that I spend any time doing anything other than trying to make poor people better off. Given that your handle is "The Angry Optimist" rather than "Mother Theresa" or even "Norman Borlaug", I kind of doubt that you spend all of your time in the way that would make the world the absolute best place for others to live in.

[Neu Mejican]

I'll point out that the local news cameraman was the one who framed the shot and the shot could have easily been made without including any turkey carnage by either a closer zoom, moving a bit to the right, or having Palin move a bit to the left. She probably assumed the cameraman had chosen a position where the killing cones weren't in the shot, seeing as competent cameramen avoid including distracting background activity while taping an interview when possible.

According to the Fox news reports, the response from Palin's camp informed them that the cameraman ask her if she was okay with the killing cone being in the background and she said "fine."

[Warty]

SugarFree, I'm gonna drop by your house for dinner. Is it OK if I fuck your wife?

[Neu Mejican]

Jorgen,

Mother Theresa

Oh no.
Here we go.

MT is one of the favorite punching bags around here.

[The Angry Optimist]

Jorgen - et tu? You presume a kind of moral superiority with your veganism, and it's exceptionally irritating. If you do not want to play the "I do more to cut down on 'harm' than you do" game, next time do not come on and imply that meat-eaters are doing all kinds of wanton and reckless "damage" to animals, because it is complete and total question-begging.

if you want to reduce the "harm", go help poor people first. Don't presume to be morally superior because you reduce the "harm" done to animals.

And don't say you don't think that, because if you didn't think it was the morally superior position to take, you wouldn't take it.

Compassion is not a zero-sum resource.

I disagree. There absolutely are limits to human's emotional resources.

[Just Plain Brian]

According to the Fox news reports, the response from Palin's camp informed them that the cameraman ask her if she was okay with the killing cone being in the background and she said "fine."

Should have figured, although I'll bet he only asked because he was afraid of losing his job if he didn't.

[Jorgen]

Neu Mejican,

yeah, I think Mother Theresa was a pretty worthless saver of the human race, especially considering crap moves like opposing the legalization of divorce in Ireland while cheering on Diana's divorce. That said, I think she probably tried harder to help folks out than does The Angry Optimist.

[The Angry Optimist]

erm, I never said that it's good or bad to "help", just that I resent the implication that if you're doing MORE to reduce harm, then meat-eating must, ipso facto, be doing more harm.

[Episiarch]

SugarFree, I'm gonna drop by your house for dinner. Is it OK if I fuck your wife?

I've finally figured out who you are. Frank Booth. It all makes sense now.

[Neu Mejican]

Compassion is not a zero-sum resource.

I disagree. There absolutely are limits to human's emotional resources.

And what is the source of those limits?

I think there are limits to a human's attention, sure, but how does my compassion for X (a momentary response while I am paying attention to context X) diminish my ability to have compassion for Y in the moment that I am paying attention to Y?

[SugarFree]

SugarFree, I'm gonna drop by your house for dinner. Is it OK if I fuck your wife?

More the merrier, food-wise. But your going to have to the rest up with her. And she's kind of mean. But she is, quite literally, a naughty librarian, so anything's possible.

[Just Plain Brian]

That said, I think she probably tried harder to help folks out than does The Angry Optimist.

That bitch got off on watching people suffer. Must be nice to have your personal fetish make you look like a saint, but my money's still on TAO being the better human being.

[Jordan]

WTF. Are some of you under the impression that pardoning a turkey is meant to be a serious event or something? No wait, you're just hacks who have some bizarre visceral hatred for Sarah Palin.

[Jorgen]

"The Angry Optimist | November 21, 2008, 4:54pm | #
erm, I never said that it's good or bad to "help", just that I resent the implication that if you're doing MORE to reduce harm, then meat-eating must, ipso facto, be doing more harm."

Yes, I do think that meat eating does more harm. That is why I avoid it. If you sincerely believe that meat eating does the same amount of harm or less harm than does veganism, then we're both making eating decisions based on the welfare of others (human and animal), and that's great. I'm open to hearing you out about why eating meat is less harmful. If you eat meat because it tastes good and resent being reminded of ethical considerations that you don't really have a refutation for, then you should really either own up to what you're doing or at least stop shouting at others that they are "such a self-righteous selfish prick by denying them a steak based on your screwed-up "ethics"."

[Jorgen]

"That bitch got off on watching people suffer. Must be nice to have your personal fetish make you look like a saint, but my money's still on TAO being the better human being."

Yeah, Mother Theresa would probably be even more annoying of an asshole on Hit and Run.

[Just Plain Brian]

I think there are limits to a human's attention, sure, but how does my compassion for X (a momentary response while I am paying attention to context X) diminish my ability to have compassion for Y in the moment that I am paying attention to Y?

We've got 6 Billion people on earth, and counting, I don't think it's that far-fetched an idea that there's a limit to how many of those people the human mind can truly have compassion for, at least on any kind of individual basis. Maybe in the abstract, or as a general principle, but certainly not as individuals.

[The Angry Optimist]

I'm open to hearing you out about why eating meat is less harmful.

See, you're the one with the presumption about harm.

"Jorgen doesn't meat. Because meat = harm and harm = bad."

When you start talking about "harm", you've already assumed moral superiority.

resent being reminded of ethical considerations that you don't really have a refutation

A refutation? You have not even stated a rebuttable ethical premise.

[Just Plain Brian]

Yeah, Mother Theresa would probably be even more annoying of an asshole on Hit and Run

If your standard is who annoys you less, then I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think it's a safe bet that TAO has never said anything as evil as this:

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

[Jorgen]

I see, TAO. Because I base my decisions around ethics, I'm assuming ethical superiority. I assume this is why you beat women, kill people in the streets, rape children and run people over with your car on purpose, because you want to make sure that you aren't assuming ethical superiority. Now it's all clear to me.

As for a rebuttable ethical premise, how about this:

1) It is wrong to cause suffering to beings capable of suffering.

2) The process by which commercially available meat is produced entails more suffering for beings capable of suffering than does the process of producing nutritionally equivalent foods.

3) Paying someone else to do something is morally equivalent to doing it yourself.

Therefore, eating a diet composed of foods that require less suffering to produce than does commercially available meat is ethically preferable than eating commercially available meat.

Similarly, eating food that was harvested without a mechanical reaper is ethically superior to my diet. Refusing to eat foods that are produced by burning down the rain forest is better than eating them. Buying jewelry that is made in a lab or taken from mines that don't use slave labor is better than buying diamonds and gold from mines that do use slave labor. etc etc etc. And again, when you start off by talking about the starving African farmers who would kill me for being a self centered fuck who doesn't want them to eat steak, you look kind of silly getting hot and bothered about me presuming moral superiority.

[Warty]

I've finally figured out who you are. Frank Booth. It all makes sense now.

This explains my mysterious love for PBR.

That, and the fact that I'm in walking distance of a bar that has $2 fill-any-sized-mug-with-PBR on Wednesdays.

[Potted Plant]

The Angry Optimist -- I don't recall Jorgen saying anything that suggested he felt "morally superior" to meat-eaters. In fact, he said just the opposite -- that eating meat wasn't wrong, and that anyone who acted shocked at where turkey meat comes from is "willfully ignorant" and "obnoxious." It's you, TAO, who have adopted an attitude that vegans or others who care about animal suffering are somehow foolish or unserious.

I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, but I don't understand the mind-set that treats an animal's death as light-hearted entertainment, or something to joke about.

All that being said, I'd gladly work on a Japanese dolphin fishing boat if it would guarantee that Hayden Panetierre would notice me.

[Jorgen]

Just Plain Brian:

I don't like Mother Theresa either. I'm sorry I ever mentioned her. Next time I'll make a similar point with an uncontroversial friend of humanity, like Chairman Mao, Che Guevara or Lyndon B. Johnson.

[Warty]

I've been banging a vegan chick lately. I make fun of her a lot for it, but I've found that I actually like nutritional yeast. That's about all I can contribute to this discussion.

[Jorgen]

And Potted Plant is right. I'm trying to do right when I can, as are many meat eaters. I do a lot of things that aren't the most ethical things I can do out of convenience, or fear, or desire for entertainment. I don't think I'm a bad person for spending money on myself when I could spend it on people who need it more, and I don't think that meat eaters are bad people because they choose to do something that I think is wrong. I do think that people who trash me for my choices are obnoxious.

[Just Plain Brian]

I don't like Mother Theresa either. I'm sorry I ever mentioned her. Next time I'll make a similar point with an uncontroversial friend of humanity, like Chairman Mao, Che Guevara or Lyndon B. Johnson.

LOL, fair enough.

All that being said, I'd gladly work on a Japanese dolphin fishing boat if it would guarantee that Hayden Panetierre would notice me.

Now that's something we can probably all agree on!

[Jorgen]

"All that being said, I'd gladly work on a Japanese dolphin fishing boat if it would guarantee that Hayden Panetierre would notice me."

Ah, the lengths a man will go to just to get shot in the face by Hayden Panetierre.

[jtuf]

Primatologist Jane Goodall recently published a manifesto called "Harvest for Hope" in which she laments that "we have been hypnotized into believing that it is perfectly reasonable to walk into a supermarket and find any kind of food, from anywhere, anytime of the year." She would prefer us to "think about meals the way our ancestors did," (from the ethical-eating article)

Um, chimps are omnivores. My Animal Behavior professor showed us video of them hunting monkeys. The chimps didn't use a gun or killing cone to kill the monkeys quickly. Their teeth and bare hands took longer, and I imagine the process was rather painful. Does Goodall want us to bite the heads off street pigeons and serve them up for Thanksgiving dinner?

[Jorgen]

"Um, chimps are omnivores. My Animal Behavior professor showed us video of them hunting monkeys. The chimps didn't use a gun or killing cone to kill the monkeys quickly. Their teeth and bare hands took longer, and I imagine the process was rather painful. Does Goodall want us to bite the heads off street pigeons and serve them up for Thanksgiving dinner?"

I think it's pretty silly to look to animals with no sense of morality to see what we ought to do. Chimps also eat eachother's babies. Orangutan's regularly rape eachother. As for Goodall, I will admit that we'd save some gasoline and the like if we didn't eat strawberries in the winter, but I also really like strawberries in the winter. And since I'm a vegan, I can be smug and self righteous anyway.

[Franklin Harris]

I didn't know there was an actual working model of the beheading machine in "Caligula." And it's used on turkeys. Interesting.

[FatDrunkAndStupid]

Joe,

I think everybody on here understands why a typical phony, scumbag pol would have moved the post pardon interview off the farm. But we're libertarians, and by definition don't care for typical phony politician gamesmanship. Here we have a politician who is actually familiar enough with a working farm that she's completely unfazed when she sees a working farm at work. That's refreshing. It's intellectually honest. And we'd be a lot better as a country if more people appreciated it.

[joe]

SugarFree | November 21, 2008, 4:18pm | #

I will be brining my turkeys, as usual, a honey-bourbon brine with cinnamon, cloves, black pepper, and sage leaves. After rinsing them and salting the skin, I lift the skin away from the meat and rub softened butter in between to promote the rendering of the fat and to crisp the skin. The cavity of the birds will be stuffed with slices of apples and onions. I am planning on three rounds of hickory smoking, with a target time of two hours and internal temp of 155. (Carry over to 160 under tented aluminum foil.)

In addition, we'll be serving sausage and apple stuffing, fresh cranberry relish, cranberry-grappa jelly, whipped potatoes with chipotle butter, sweet potato casserole with a coconut-pecan crust, flash fried haricot vert, and a pineapple-habanero-lime dipping sauce for the meat.

Good Lord, that sounds good!

[SIV]

I'd gladly work on a Japanese dolphin fishing boat for $5 more an hour, and cash per diem, and the experience.I like fishing.

[The Angry Optimist]

I don't think that meat eaters are bad people because they choose to do something that I think is wrong.

That does not make any sense. IF the reason that you choose to be a vegan is because it is "wrong to cause suffering to sensing creatures", THEN by definition you must impart some morality (or lack thereof) onto the individual who does not make that choice.

You cannot simultaneously claim you are doing X for moral reasons and say that Y agent, who does not conform to your morality, is still OK in doing so.

By saying "it is wrong to cause suffering to beings who can suffer", you MUST be imparting "wrongness" onto people who do cause suffering to beings that can suffer.

[Aresen]

While it wasn't the brightest spot to do an interview, from an "icky" point of view, she does come across fairly well.

If the Hufflepufflepost people had just shrugged, rolled their eyes and ignored it, it probably would have been a net negative for Palin. By going all hissy about it, they have made themselves ridiculous, which probably makes it a net plus for Palin. Maybe the Hufflepufflepost people should watch a few nature videos, like this one, they might realize that mother nature is a bitch.

Turkeys are incredibly stupid and nasty. If there is a creature which deserves to be eaten, it is a turkey.

[zoltan]

As long as she stays on the turkey farm/in Alaska, I'm good.

[Jim Walsh]

Killing Cones would make a great title for a blues song: if I had listened to my second mind ...

[Just Plain Brian]

Killing Cones would make a great title for a blues song

Either that, or a name for a death metal band:

"Off their new album 'Palinesque', here's Killing Cones with "Pallin' around with terrorists"..."

[Mike Licht]

These Thanksgiving pardons are trickier than they look.

[transpose]

The partisanship over here and at HuffPo both make me ill.

Was it idiotic and contradictory for Palin to go through the 'turkey pardoning' ritual and then give an interview RIGHT IN FRONT of the farmer slaughter a bunch of other turkeys?

Yes. Sorry folks.

Does it automatically mean she's a better or worse candidate?

Not really. Obviously her publicists and handlers should be doing a better job - or doing their job at all, which they clearly weren't if this went on air.

I think it's amusing that Palin missed the irony here, but in the interest of full disclosure, I'll also say that I always thought she was an inept and incompetent candidate that had no place on the national scene. I also didn't drink the Obama Kool-Aid; I've been singing his flaws and how I think he'll screw everyone over since the beginning, so I'm not as interested at continued finger pointing at Palin.

What I don't get is the repeated insistence on this comment thread that the HuffPo people are all "sissies" for not being down with the animal slaughter. Meat eaters that can't stand killing an animal - much less watching it die - irritate me. Why would you justify eating meat then? (Yes, I am a vegetarian.) But assuming that all those that get their knickers in a twist over this most recent Palin antic aren't vegetarians and are hypocrites is equally inane. Just because you couldn't fathom being a vegetarian and having those values doesn't mean that others do not and cannot live by them.

[prolefeed]

joe --

Palin is currently the governor of Alaska. You know, a rural state where a governor who is comfortable giving an interview in front of a slaughterhouse gets her votes.

So, from a purely political perspective:

I suspect this might hurt her in some swing states if she plans to run for president in 2012 -- though it might help in newly swing states like North Carolina or Virginia with lots of rural voters -- but if she is eyeing a run for Congress from Alaska this might help her.

Somehow, though, I doubt she is counting on getting a lot of votes from partisan, very liberal Democrats from Massachusetts, or even thinking that Mass is in play for Republicans.

Context.

[jtuf]

Jorgen | November 21, 2008, 5:58pm | #

"Um, chimps are omnivores. My Animal Behavior professor showed us video of them hunting monkeys. The chimps didn't use a gun or killing cone to kill the monkeys quickly. Their teeth and bare hands took longer, and I imagine the process was rather painful. Does Goodall want us to bite the heads off street pigeons and serve them up for Thanksgiving dinner?"

I think it's pretty silly to look to animals with no sense of morality to see what we ought to do. Chimps also eat eachother's babies. Orangutan's regularly rape eachother. As for Goodall, I will admit that we'd save some gasoline and the like if we didn't eat strawberries in the winter, but I also really like strawberries in the winter. And since I'm a vegan, I can be smug and self righteous anyway.

I agree that basing morality on what animals do is foolish. That was my point. Goodall sugested basing our eating choices on what our ancestors did. I disagreed with her logic, because our ancestors a million years ago probably did grusome stuff similar to today's chimp behavior. If you choose a vegan/vegitarian/low meat lifestyle to reduce your environmental impact or avoid causing pain to animals, I respect that. I just don't have respect for food advocates that pressure others to eat like them out of a false belief about what is "natural" or "ancestral behavior".

[Just Plain Brian]

Obviously her publicists and handlers should be doing a better job - or doing their job at all, which they clearly weren't if this went on air.

Don't be so sure, it seems like her publicists are doing a fantastic job of keeping her in the public eye. Weeks after the election there are still plenty of people talking about Sarah Palin, and now the story is about this turkey thing instead of whether she thinks Africa is a country.

If they had let her do this interview with a more appropriate backdrop, none of us would be talking about it.

[mmm trukey]

Growing up we killed about 150 chickens, 10-20 turkeys, and bought one cow worth of beef by walking up to the one we wanted and pointing to it while it mooed every year. If you can't kill it then you shouldn't be eating it.

[joe]

prolefeed,

She's also a former Vice-Presidential candidate who has made no secret of her interest in running for President of the United States in four years, and who realizes, and glories in, the fact that she can still command significant national media attention.

Her problem is that she doesn't realize that there aren't enough of the "Real Americans" living in "the pro-American parts of America" - ie, the kind of people to whom it wouldn't even occur to that slaughtering livestock on camera is a bad visual, particularly after a turkey-pardoning event, to put up even Bidenesque numbers.

[joe]

Just Plain Brian,

No press is bad press? It's a theory.

But I'd point out that Palin managed to get some pretty bad press during the campaign, and it didn't help things.

And the problem with this is that it feeds into the same clueless image as "In what sense, Charlie?" and "All of them. Whatever they put in front of me." She either let herself get pranked, or she didn't realize the problem with having livestock killed in the background during your interview.

BTW, her people came out today and said she didn't realize what was going on. 1) So sorry for the "there's nothing wrong with this!" crowd and 2) Another story about Sarah Palin being unaware of things. Yay.

God, I hope they nominate that woman.

[joe]

Check it out, I found the theme song for the Sarah Palin fan club.

"Where There Was Me and You" from High School Musical

It's funny when you find yourself
Looking from the outside
I'm standing here but all I want
Is to be over there
Why did I let myself believe
Miracles could happen
Cause now I have to pretend
That I don't really care

I thought you were my fairytale
A dream when I'm not sleeping
A wish upon a star
Thats coming true
But everybody else could tell
That I confused my feelings with the truth
When there was me and you

I swore I knew the melody
That I heard you singing
And when you smiled
You made me feel
Like I could sing along
But then you went and changed the words
Now my heart is empty
I'm only left with used-to-be's
And once upon a song

Now I know your not a fairytale
And dreams were meant for sleeping
And wishes on a star
Just don't come true
Cause now even I can tell
That I confused my feelings with the truth
Cause I liked the view
When there was me and you

I can't believe that
I could be so blind
It's like you were floating
While I was falling
And I didn't mind

Cause I liked the view
Thought you felt it too
When there was me and you

[ellipsis]

She's also a former Vice-Presidential candidate who has made no secret of her interest in running for President of the United States in four years...

Um, yeah. If she gets nominated, the Republican primary machine is even more full of half-wits than I previously imagined. Which is saying something.

[joe]

The size of the half-wit contingent isn't the key factor, but whether the plutocrats choose to destroy her and lead them to some other candidate.

[one day at a time]

This woman continues to outrage me! She is an absolute jackass and her chances of winning any position higher than governor of alaska is slim to none. It is absolutely amazing that she is governor of anything. She needs to stop terrorizing this country and go back to mothering her children and her child's soon to be child!

[juris imprudent]

joe sez It's really not something you can explain

That's just fucking beautiful.

Particularly when he goes on to try to 'splain it.

[juris imprudent]

NM sez It's like Andy Kaufman is organizing her press.

That's just fucking brilliant!

Oh, to SF and others on turkey-prep, have you ever tried covering the bird with bacon in the roasting pan? Did that year before last and it was fantastic.

[juris imprudent]

I don't think I'm a bad person for spending money on myself when I could spend it on people who need it more, and I don't think that meat eaters are bad people because they choose to do something that I think is wrong.

Meet jorgen, the anti-Rand.

[Jeremiah]

Those "Fake Americans" in the "Anti-American portions of America" are clear evidence of a decadent civilization plunging in decline.
National Veterinary Care For Cats and Dogs Now!

[zoltan]

Somehow, though, I doubt she is counting on getting a lot of votes from partisan, very liberal Democrats from Massachusetts, or even thinking that Mass is in play for Republicans.

Mass was in play for Romney at the state level.

[Crow Eating Dumbass]

"John, if Sarah Palin told you to eat a shit sandwich, not only would you eat it, you would actually convince yourself you liked it, and proclaim that anyone who says otherwise is just being partisan."

John, joe just ate your (non-vegan) lunch! Holy shit that was good.

"Humans are omnivores. Asking humans not to eat meat is like asking them not to have sex for fun. It's in our genes to eat meat.

Jorgen, you can go on ahead and try to convince me with emotional prayers to the life and well-being of cute forest critters. I still maintain that if you spend time going after veal producers instead of sending aid to Third-World countries, you care more about animals than people."

And TAO making a fool of himself too, how did I miss this thread! Note the naturalistic fallacy (natural=moral) and the false dilemma (can't work against veal producers AND for the poor in Africa too) all in one brief post!

"Given that your handle is "The Angry Optimist" rather than "Mother Theresa" or even "Norman Borlaug", I kind of doubt that you spend all of your time in the way that would make the world the absolute best place for others to live in."

Oh I love it! Jorgen calls TAO on his always annoying moral superiority feint, and then as usual the less than introspective TAO follows up by trying to cast his opponent as doint the same:
"You presume a kind of moral superiority with your veganism, and it's exceptionally irritating."

Man, I was on the wrong thread!

[CED]

"If you eat meat because it tastes good and resent being reminded of ethical considerations that you don't really have a refutation for, then you should really either own up to what you're doing or at least stop shouting at others that they are "such a self-righteous selfish prick by denying them a steak based on your screwed-up "ethics".""

That's that mattress man. As is his usual line TAO accuses Jorgen of "not making an argument" ("You have not even stated a rebuttable ethical premise") when his own entire array of comments has been around one theme: "how dare you condemn my eating habits as wrong, I am not a bad man!"

Jorgen then responded with about as plain an argument as you can get, in syllogism form no less (@ 5:42)! And that I can see, TAO never responds to it...Instead he whines about Jorgen imputing moral stain on him and his self-righteous coat of many colors (@ 8:32).

TAO, you're at times a bright young man with some admirable libertarian leanings but with a right-wing asshole side that is becoming stronger every day and making your posts become less and less well reasoned. You should try sitting down and honestly trying to see where people who have ideas different and strange from yours come from instead of quickly determining "vegetarians are like PETA and those people are stupid" or the like...

[Mixed Medical Metaphor]

Animal-rightist insanity has metastasized in the center and left,infecting even the animal skin meat eaters.

[economist]

LMAO. Both at the videos and the comments.

[economist]

Anyone notice the coffee cup with the blurred-out sleeve?

Could Sarah Palin be a hoity-toity STARBUCKS customer?

[economist]

Not a huge Palin fan.

Not a Palin-hater either.

I am Palin-neutral.