Reason Writers Around Town: Katherine Mangu-Ward Hunts Pro-Palin Feminists

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Feminist?

In the second installment of her weeklong debate in the Los Angeles Times with blogger Amanda Marcotte, Katherine Mangu-Ward goes hunting for the elusive pro-Palin feminist. And moose.

Read the exchange here.

Read the first installment here.

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  1. KMW is my favorite Reason chick. What did she do so wrong as to have to hang out with Amanda Marcotte?

  2. @SIV

    well there are so many to choose from.

  3. Different feminists have different ideas about feminism, but the core ideas are pretty standard: Women should have equal access to education and career opportunities as men. Women should have the freedom to marry and date who they want and control their fertility. Women should have the same rights as men to live free from harassment and discrimination. Domestic violence and rape are part of a system of violence that contributes to the oppression of women. I’ve met feminists of every stripe and every description, but they can in good faith call themselves feminists because they believe these things.

    Aside from the ‘control their own fertility’ (read abortion and abortion only) I’m not sure most social conservatives would disagree much with the above.

    And even the ‘controlling their own fertility’ comes with caveats, postscripts and asterisks on the progressive front.

    Bottom line: We know feminism is incompatible with social-conservatism… feminists have made sure of that. I just don’t buy the larger thesis.

  4. Outta the park, KMW.

    …feminism is about seeing female humans as more than just uterus-bearing beings… Her feminism isn’t the most important thing about her political views.

    So few people see it this way, I’ve relinquished the title of ‘feminist,’ myself.

    Being a single-issue voter doesn’t make much sense to me, regardless of whether it’s abortion or mandatory pictures of white Jesus in every public school. If that makes me a non-feminist, that’s fine by me.

  5. Maybe that’s why I find all the feminist hysteria around

    Haha… uh hahaha. ha… ha. That was uhh, pretty good.

    Never mind…

  6. As far as I understand it, here is the “feminist” manifesto, according to Marcotte:

    Women should have equal access to education and career opportunities as men.

    Does she mean “should” as in “government should force this function” or “should” as in “in an ideal world”?

    Women should have the freedom to marry and date who they want and control their fertility.

    I agree, generally speaking, but if “control their fertility” is code for “abortion on demand” then…I don’t know. But I could definitely see being consistently pro-equal-‘rights’ for women and still being opposed to abortion.

    Women should have the same rights as men to live free from harassment and discrimination.

    You don’t have the right to “live free” from nebulous concepts such as these. That includes men…in that way, I’m a feminist! I believe you can negotiate terms of employment but you should not be able to force employers to follow your beliefs about propriety.

    Domestic violence and rape are part of a system of violence that contributes to the oppression of women.

    Are my sisters-in-arms willing to admit that the craziness about DV and rape has gone too far? That plenty of innocent men are now ensnared in bogus claims and that the law has encouraged women to manufacture these claims, at least WRT divorce courts?

  7. Isn’t that an Elk?


  8. But if I’m to be drummed out of the sisterhood, then the last, best hope for a socially conservative woman like Palin to win over anyone who calls herself a feminist goes with me. Perhaps you say good riddance to bad rubbish?

    Defensive much? There might be better ways of talking about the issue than making it all about KMW herself.

  9. That plenty of innocent men are now ensnared in bogus claims and that the law has encouraged women to manufacture these claims, at least WRT divorce courts?

    TAO,

    Doesn’t no-fault divorce eliminate a lot of that nonsense?

  10. Doesn’t no-fault divorce eliminate a lot of that nonsense?

    It creates a whole bunch of new nonsense. But that’s another thread.

  11. There’s no reason to think Palin is against violence prevention

    Amanda Marcotte is a total piece of shit.

    and an attack on her is not an attack on women but simply an attack on a pieces of shit.

  12. TAO,

    Doesn’t no-fault divorce eliminate a lot of that nonsense?

    I should clarify (although the point I’m about to make is related to no-fault). It is actually the child custody hearings where the law has encouraged false claims of DV.

  13. Aside from the ‘control their own fertility’ (read abortion and abortion only)

    Seriously, WTF? Feminists led the fights to legalize birth control, repeal laws against extra-marital sex, and prevent bans on IVF.

    I imagine it’s a bit odd for people who loathe feminists to read an exchange where the hard-core feminist Marcotte is less interested in female identity politics than her opponent.

  14. It is actually the child custody hearings where the law has encouraged false claims of DV.

    Child custody law is one of those examples of sexism that feminists can never really explain. The bias is blatant, but it’s ok as long as it’s against men? Part of why ‘feminism’ as it is traditionally conceived is a broken concept.

  15. I’m getting a little tired of Marcotte’s hyperbole. I didn’t realize we were living in the world of The Handmaid’s Tale.

  16. The Handmaid’s Tale

    I’ll admit to a minor Margaret Atwood obsession. Oryx and Crake was better, though.

  17. I’m rereading Handmaid’s Tale right now. Damn, that’s a scary, depressing book.

    True story: that book was on the summer reading list at the Catholic high school I went to.

    Oryx and Crake was great, too.

  18. Joe, which school?

    Don Bosco?

  19. I’m rereading Handmaid’s Tale right now. Damn, that’s a scary, depressing book.

    Yup. I can reread Atwood over and over and still be totally engrossed.

    Your Catholic hs was ahead of my uni; we read The Edible Woman in English 101. Lesser known, early work, but still great.

  20. I’ve been fast-forwarding through that article for the past five minutes and both of them still have their clothes on and are chattering away. Maybe both of them should have been better prepared.

  21. Seriously, WTF? Feminists led the fights to legalize birth control, repeal laws against extra-marital sex, and prevent bans on IVF.

    Joe, broaden your mind and your reach a little. There’s been a lot of noise lately over the unregulated fertility industry, women selling their own embryos (also decried by pro-life set, to be fair), and the fact that women need to be protected from…themselves.

    There are even noises about the gendered burden that IVF treatments can lead to. Feminist perspective, natch.

  22. I’ll admit to a minor Margaret Atwood obsession. Oryx and Crake was better, though.

    I’m not suprised 😉

    I prefer Le Guin. Lathe of Heaven is the shit, as is The Left Hand of Darkness.

  23. I prefer Le Guin.

    I’m embarassed to confess that the only Le Guin I’ver read is Catwings as a kid. Must remedy that.

    I’m not suprised 😉

    The Canadian thing?

  24. Paul,

    I’d think a libertarian wouldn’t need to be instructed in the difference between saying something is bad, and arguing for it to be banned. Shall we bring up all of the “libertarian” denunciations of farmer’s markets and organic food?

    And even if you were right, which you are not, the statement I refuted was ‘control their own fertility’ (read abortion and abortion only). That is a steaming pile.

  25. The Canadian thing?

    No, I just had a feeling you were an Atwood fan. And I was right!

    Just read up on Oryx and Crake and it sounds very interesting. Strangely, it seems to have elements out of The Left Hand of Darkness (polyandrous humans) and I Am Legend (last man on earth), which is my favorite Richard Matheson book. I might have to check it out.

  26. No, I just had a feeling you were an Atwood fan. And I was right!

    Damn, I’m transparent in ways not related to my nationality. Impressive deduction on your part, nonetheless.

    I might have to check it out.

    You won’t be sorry. It’s her most sci-fi, and I think her best, work.

  27. “Isn’t that an Elk?”

    Caribou or reindeer.

  28. Come on, folks, feminism isn’t that demanding. All you have to believe is that women are people. It says so on a bumper sticker!

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002Y1TJU/reasonmagazinea-20/

    Of course, if you add that *unborn children* are people, too, you’re pushing your luck, and you’ve probably outed yourself as a patriarchal hegemonist.

    “True story: that book [The Handmaid’s Tale] was on the summer reading list at the Catholic high school I went to.”

    Nothing about the Catholic Church in American surprises me anymore.

    I note that, in The Handmaid’s Tale, the oppressive militaristic theocratic patriarchs don’t just pick on feminists and uppity women, they hang Catholic priests and declare Quakerism illegal. Of course, it’s a post-nuclear-apocalypse hell, so they have an excuse. What excuse does modern man have for not cleaning the dishes? Hang him!

  29. Of course, if you add that *unborn children* are people, too, you’re pushing your luck, and you’ve probably outed yourself as a patriarchal hegemonist.

    Of course, it should come as no surprise that ideologues on both sides of the abortion issue in particular are completely unable to grapple with the other side’s reasoning.

  30. Mad Max, if your 13 year old daughter was raped and impregnated, would you make her carry the baby to term?

  31. Brian24,

    I understand the pro-abort reasoning; I used to be a pro-abort myself, sorry to say.

    BDB,

    Do you know something I don’t know? Anyway, if I had a 13-year-old daughter, I would revise my opinions, but not on the subject of abortion. No, I would revise my opinions on the *death penalty,* which I currently oppose. But if my daughter was raped, I would become a death penalty supporter, and seek to have the rapist executed.

    The US Supreme Court, however, in its infinite wisdom, has recently declared (in *Kennedy v. Louisiana*), that it would be “cruel and unusual punishment,” and hence unconstitutional, to execute someone convicted of raping a child:

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=07-343

    So if I wanted the rapist of my (hypothetical) 13-year-old daughter to be be killed, the Caring and Compassionate Community would say that I was just another emotional crime victim, caving in to right-wing demagoguery and endorsing excessive punishment for criminals.

    Yet if I tried to stop my daughter from killing an innocent baby because of the sins of its father, I would likewise be denounced (also by the Caring Community) as cruel and insensitive.

    If we’re going to kill anyone, kill the rapist, don’t kill an innocent baby for the sins of its father.

    Tell me, BDB, would *you* support the death penalty for the rapist of your 13-year-old daughter?

  32. Mad Max-

    Way to change the subject. But yeah, I’m a death penalty supporter for 1)treason, 2)terrorism, 2) extremely grusome crimes (child rape included).

    Now, would you have your daughter carry the rapist’s child to term?

  33. Nevermind. You think an embryo is an “innocent baby”. Got it.

    I guess if this makes me “pro abortion” I’m also pro-cocaine since I think it should be legal, even though I’ve never touched the stuff.

    Calling it “pro abort” is using drug warrior reasoning.

  34. I’m also not for the criminalization of adultery. Are you?

    If you aren’t, you must be pro-adultery.

  35. “I believe you can negotiate terms of employment but you should not be able to force employers to follow your beliefs about propriety.”

    How about force them to follow the beliefs of most mankind about basic decency and fair play? I’m for that.

    For literally centuries not only social conventions but the government worked pretty hard to create and foster prejudicial conditions and beliefs for many groups, women being one. The libertarian “answer” is to simply bar any forms of this involving outright governmental force or fraud.

    It’s a dandy answer if you like women (or whatever group) being held down because the social conventions, facally neutral laws with disparate impacts, and imbalances in bargaining position fostered in the past can work to keep women (or many ther groups) effectively down and you get the benefit of saying you are for LUBERTY!

    Right leaning libertarians remind me of the kid who runs up and takes someone’s hat and then yells “I call no stealing” when they rest of the kids try to take it back.

  36. Does anyone really, honestly think a War on Abortions wouldn’t carry all the problems of the War on Drugs X 1,000?

  37. No one should support the death penalty for rape. It encourages rapists to kill their victims instead of raping them and running.

  38. I thought I’d answered your question. Of course if the only to avoid killing the baby is to carry it to term, then that’s the course to take. If there’s a way to end the pregnancy while saving the baby’s life (artificial womb, whatever), then go for it.

    The proper comparison is not between abortion and the drug war but between abortion and slavery. In the 1850s, the pro-slavery side (and they didn’t dodge and evade when they were called pro-slavery, at least not in the South; they *admitted* they were pro-slavery) wanted the government to protect the alleged constitutional right of slaveowners to own slaves. Of course, they did not want to *force* anyone to own slaves. “If you don’t like slavery, don’t own one,” was their motto.

  39. “Women should have the freedom to marry and date who they want and control their fertility.”

    Conservative journals are full of long windy lamentations over the evils of the “sexual revolution” of the 1960’s and actual praise of the virtues of the Victoriam era.

    “Are my sisters-in-arms willing to admit that the craziness about DV and rape has gone too far? ”

    Feminists I know would probably think it suspect that the first thing that shoots to your mind when rape is mentioned is the unfairly prosecuted men. It’s like the people who say “Of course I like black people, that’s why what I’m really worried about is that affirmative action will stigmatize them.”

  40. Mad Max-

    That’s not true. Slavery proponents, by the 1850s, were enthusiastically pro-slavery and loudly admitted that.

  41. No, he would not. And let us tell you why…

  42. A slave society forces people to own slaves by making it impossible to economically compete without them.

  43. “Does anyone really, honestly think a War on Abortions wouldn’t carry all the problems of the War on Drugs X 1,000?”

    The War on Slavery in the 1860s was no picnic either. If I thought that restoring legal protection to the unborn would lead to a civil war with hundreds of thousands of deaths, maybe I might look to a more moderate solution to the slavery question.

    Once the pro-aborts get guns, and control of a large militarily-defensible area, the way the pro-slavers did in the 1860s, then *maybe* I would consider recognizing their right to secede and form a pro-abortion republic, like some claim the North should have done with the Confederacy.

  44. “The proper comparison is not between abortion and the drug war but between abortion and slavery.”

    Except slaves were not these tiny clumps of cells that are naturally miscarried 20% of the time..

  45. “Once the pro-aborts get guns, and control of a large militarily-defensible area, the way the pro-slavers did in the 1860s, then *maybe* I would consider recognizing their right to secede and form a pro-abortion republic, like some claim the North should have done with the Confederacy.”

    Why is it that the abortion legalization debate eats peoples brains?

    Ok, Mad Max. That’s enough, you’ve outed yourself as a nut.

  46. “That’s not true. Slavery proponents, by the 1850s, were enthusiastically pro-slavery and loudly admitted that.”

    That’s what I said. I said “they didn’t dodge and evade when they were called pro-slavery, at least not in the South; they *admitted* they were pro-slavery.”

  47. “A slave society forces people to own slaves by making it impossible to economically compete without them.”

    BDB
    For shame! Don’t you know that the market would never have allowed such an advantage! Blasphemy!

  48. MNG-

    There was a reason Washington and Jefferson didn’t get rid of their slaves even though they thought it was immoral. Because all their capital was invested in them.

    I’ve heard of people comparing legal abortion to the holocaust before, but slavery? Lord, that is both historically inaccurate and offensive on so many different levels.

  49. “Except slaves were not these tiny clumps of cells that are naturally miscarried 20% of the time..”

    According to pro-slavery advocates, slaves were a lesser type of human – they were childlike savages who were lucky to have been rescued from African barbarism – many of them “naturally” died of disease, the Middle Passage, overwork, etc.

    The key was that they were not full rights-bearing human beings in the sense that white people were. The Supreme Court said so.

    Hmmm . . . this somehow sounds familiar.

  50. MM–

    Since I’m guessing you’re not one of those cafeteria catholics, I guess birth control pills should be made illegal too?

  51. Come to think of it, should abortificant drugs be criminalized?

  52. This is an embryo.

    This is a baby.

  53. MM
    Microscopic clumps of cells are a far cry from “lesser type of humans.” C’mon man.

  54. Mad Max,

    To be clear, I didn’t mean that YOU were unable to grapple with the other side’s arguments. I was agreeing with you that the hypothetical feminist in your post was unable to grapple with yours.

    The reason, of course, is that all abortion arguments follow from the crucial point of determining what is a “human life.” The vast majority of people agree that an unjoined sperm or egg is not one; the vast majority agree that a post-natural-birth baby is one. Between that it basically depends on what arbitrary point you want to choose as the magical moment.

  55. I know BDB I was just having a lil’ fun with the market worshipers. You know, the type that won’t just stop by saying the market is an amazing tool that often promotes prosperity and liberty and equality in remarkable ways (as I do) but that it always magically works to reward virtue, punish vice and deflect harmful meteor showers…Anything else brands you as a socialist by God.

  56. Here’s my personal belief on this FWIW:

    –Abortions in cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother are not immoral and should be legal

    –Abortion as a form of birth control in the first and second trimester is immoral but should not be criminalized (i.e., the same way adultery is immoral but we don’t throw people who cheat on their wives in prison)

    –Abortion in the third trimester should be RARE and permitted only for the reasons in the first point above.

  57. “The reason, of course, is that all abortion arguments follow from the crucial point of determining what is a “human life.” The vast majority of people agree that an unjoined sperm or egg is not one; the vast majority agree that a post-natural-birth baby is one. Between that it basically depends on what arbitrary point you want to choose as the magical moment.”

    That’s about right.

  58. Bio 101,

    What difference does it make what they look like? If they both have a soul, they both have a soul.

  59. MNG–

    A slave society is not capitalist. It’s feudal.

  60. I’m rereading Handmaid’s Tale right now. Damn, that’s a scary, depressing book.

    I dunno, but the only thing I found scary about The Handmaid’s Tale is that any one takes it or the remarkably silly Margaret Atwood seriously.

    Typical Canadian leftist claptrap about the evil Amerikan imperialists and their evil fundamentalism (which, if she had bothered to check is every bit a prevalent in her country).

  61. Canadians suck. I think we can all agree on that.

  62. Canadians suck. I think we can all agree on that.

    Hey, let’s not go there.

  63. “A slave society is not capitalist. It’s feudal.”

    No society is “capitalist.” There are varying restraints on laissez-faire that have, are and will be built into every market. Sometimes given a restraint the market will actually operate to bolster a vice, even the very restraint. Slavery is an example of that.

    Markets don’t always promote virtue or even efficiency or always undermine evil under all conditions. They are remarkable, but not magical or mystical.

  64. Given slavery the person who morally chose to forego slave labor put himself at an automatic disadvantage against the person who morally would stoop to that. Markets can reward and bolster evils. It’s no answer for the hard core libertarian to mumble about “well that was not a REALLY free market.” Such an animal has never existed.

    Ironically that answer is the very same answer the committed Marxist gives about communism, that no REAL communistic government has ever been tried and that’s why it has not worked. If they would just REALLY try communism/free market then to the true beleiver it would just solve all the defects associated with these systems in their imperfect actual manifestations.

  65. The Handmaid’s Tale was boring. The worst Hugo novel winner I’ve read (and I’ve read nearly all of them). One of the worst books I’ve ever read by a woman.

  66. Later guys, gotta watch Deadwood (started watching the DVD’s a few weeks ago, into Season 2, terrific show).

  67. MNG–

    A market society requires that everyone has the right to own their own body and labor. Slave (and serf) societies don’t allow that.

  68. BDB | September 9, 2008, 8:13pm | #

    Does anyone really, honestly think a War on Abortions wouldn’t carry all the problems of the War on Drugs X 1,000?

    The law recognizes that a warrant is not required for the police to search and/or enter a property if there are exigent circumstances. Exigent circumstances are defined as a situation in which there is an imminent threat to human life or limb. The legal standard is not compelling evidence, but “reasonable suspicion” in the mind of a police officer.

    If abortion were criminalized and embryos recognized as legal persons, a police officer who has a reasonable suspicion that the young woman who went into the Ob-Gyn’s office is going there for an abortion, he is allowed to eavesdrop on their discussion, or even break into the office, on that suspicion alone.

    Kree,

    If you were a better reader, you might have noticed that the government in The Handmaid’s Tail is waging a counter-insurgency campaign against “Baptist heretics,” and hangs Catholic priests.

  69. “I guess birth control pills should be made illegal too?”

    Nice one, BDB.

    Some evils can be tolerated by the government – I even said that if the pro-aborts were in a position to cause another Civil War with hundreds of thousands of casualties, there would be a case for allowing them to secede and form their own independent nation. It would take that level of danger – a risk of Civil War II – to outweigh the justification for having the government provide legal protection to *all* human beings.

    Contraception is also a problem, but in those cases where contraception doesn’t involve the destruction of human life, the equities can be weighed differently. We don’t need the danger of Civil War II to justify legal toleration of contraception. Lesser dangers – like the danger of dangerous police powers to break into marital bedrooms – would warrant toleration in this case.

    You may or may not know that under Papal rule, Rome had licenses prostitutes – prostitution is not in itself fatal (though it isn’t harmless), so there’s more room for toleration.

    For more about the state tolerating evil, see the Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical *Libertas:*

    “33. Yet, with the discernment of a true mother, the Church weighs the great burden of human weakness, and well knows the course down which the minds and actions of men are in this our age being borne. For this reason, while not conceding any right to anything save what is true and honest, she does not forbid public authority to tolerate what is at variance with truth and justice, for the sake of avoiding some greater evil, or of obtaining or preserving some greater good. God Himself in His providence, though infinitely good and powerful, permits evil to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue. In the government of States it is not forbidden to imitate the Ruler of the world; and, as the authority of man is powerless to prevent every evil, it has (as St. Augustine says) to overlook and leave unpunished many things which are punished, and rightly, by Divine Providence. But if, in such circumstances, for the sake of the common good (and this is the only legitimate reason), human law may or even should tolerate evil, it may not and should not approve or desire evil for its own sake; for evil of itself, being a privation of good, is opposed to the common welfare which every legislator is bound to desire and defend to the best of his ability. In this, human law must endeavor to imitate God, who, as St. Thomas [Aquinas] teaches, in allowing evil to exist in the world, ‘neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but wills only to permit it to be done; and this is good.’ This saying of the Angelic Doctor contains briefly the whole doctrine of the permission of evil.”

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas_en.html

  70. “The vast majority of people agree that an unjoined sperm or egg is not one; the vast majority agree that a post-natural-birth baby is one.”

    The vast majority of people vote for Democrats or Republicans in elections. In the 1850s, the vast majority of people agreed that people of African descent did not have full human rights, and could even be enslaved. I even imagine that, if you took a poll, the vast majority of people think it should be a crime to light up a bong and smoke it.

    In other words, what is your point?

  71. I’d like to second or third Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven.

  72. “unjoined sperm or egg”

    Does *anyone* believe that an unjoined sperm or egg is a human being?

  73. Hey, Bob Barr’s on Maddow.

  74. I’d like to second or third Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven.

    ProL, sometimes you raping me doesn’t feel so bad. Now is one of these times.

  75. “Ok, Mad Max. That’s enough, you’ve outed yourself as a nut.”

    Dude, I came out of that particular closet a long time ago – haven’t you been paying attention?

  76. There’s nothing wrong with religious nuts. I think priests should be holy fools who have to be led to alter by Rose the church lady, to say Sunday mass because they’re half blind from saying the rosary for three straight days, and who pray with their eyes on fire and reduce everyone present to teary, ecstatic mounds with the power of their passion shooting out like tongues of flame.

    I don’t want the parish priest to know, or care, what the bank account looks like. Leave that to Rose. And the bishop should be craziest holy fool in the area, and the pope the craziest holy fool in the world. I could get down on my knees for that.

    Such people would have no more interest in politics than in cricket, and maybe on a good day would voice the opinion “I have no king but Jesus.” Not the bloodless, grasping bureaucrats we have now.

  77. joe,

    The bloodless bureaucrats would *love* to have apolitical holy fools in administrative positions. That’s why they’re so pissed off that the Pope is a holy *non*-fool. “Damn, it’s great that he’s pious and everything, but does he have to be so intelligent? It crimps our style.”

  78. There shouldn’t be clergy in administrative positions. Leave the bookkeeping to the laity.

  79. Even though I’m a Deist (if I’m anything at all) at least fundamentalist Catholics are less obnoxious and write better than fundamentalist Protestants.

    Well, Bill Donahue excepted.

  80. I’d like to see a Protestant-Catholic smackdown between Bill Donahue and James Dobson (or someone along those lines) with the subject being the Protestant reformation. That would be entertaining.

  81. On the other hand, joe does have a point. John the Baptist was a classic holy fool, but he had to go and meddle in politics, and look what that got him – the king served up his head on a platter! (see Matthew 14:3-11). Not an inspiring example for the Church’s bloodless bureaucrats. If he’d respected the separation of religion and state, John the Baptist could have died peacefully in his bed.

  82. “Women should have the freedom to marry and date who they want and control their fertility.”

    Show mw a man who can control his fertility and I’ll show you a queer.

  83. “Domestic violence and rape are part of a system of violence that contributes to the oppression of women”

    As well as men, and lesbians…

    Fish in a barrel.

  84. BTW that is an elk she is holding not a moose.

  85. Episiarch,

    It’s funny, but I was introduced to Le Guin by a film version of The Lathe of Heaven I saw on PBS back around 1980. I remember it as being pretty good, definitely good enough to encourage me to read the book. She’s definitely someone I’d recommend.

  86. Does anyone think John McCain calling Hillary Clinton’s healthcare plan “lipstick on a pig” is sexist?

  87. Feminists I know would probably think it suspect that the first thing that shoots to your mind when rape is mentioned is the unfairly prosecuted men.

    Are you accusing me of something, MNG? I’m just asking them to consider it.

    Have you ever been on the wrong end of a capricious rape allegation? No? Then shut the fuck up.

    It’s like the people who say “Of course I like black people, that’s why what I’m really worried about is that affirmative action will stigmatize them.”

    what, that’s an invalid argument? Are you just going to keep obliquely accusing people of being racists and pro-rape?

    God, you are a grade-A asshole.

  88. “Seriously, WTF? Feminists led the fights to legalize birth control, repeal laws against extra-marital sex, and prevent bans on IVF.”

    You left out championing eugenics, Joe. No doubt just an oversight.

  89. all abortion arguments follow from the crucial point of determining what is a “human life.”

    A human life, aka a human individual, more specifically a human child, comes into being at its conception (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica, articles on “Human Reproduction” and “embryo”). I challenge anyone to cite a neutral source that says otherwise.

    Thank you

  90. “Child custody law is one of those examples of sexism that feminists can never really explain.”

    I did not have sex with that women. Miss Lewinsky…

  91. If Jesus wanted his followers to engage in politics he would have started a political movement not a church. He never tells anyone to go forth and save governments. He tells them to go forth and save souls. Jesus was utterly unconcerned with the state of the government. He went after the money chnagers at the temple not the Roman Senate.

  92. “I’m rereading Handmaid’s Tale right now. Damn, that’s a scary, depressing book.”

    And right now monkies are flying out of my ass.

  93. “You left out championing eugenics, Joe. No doubt just an oversight.”

    Margerat Sanger was a nasty piece of work that is true. The old school feminists, Friedman, Steinem and the lot have a real contempt for motherhood. That is where they lose most women. Most women don’t find marital sex to be rape and want to be mothers. Old school feminists hate that. The fact that Palin has five kids does not endear her to them.

  94. “Mad Max, if your 13 year old daughter was raped and impregnated, would you make her carry the baby to term?”

    Is Mad Max empowered to do so?


  95. Is Mad Max empowered to do so?”

    Yes. I believe that minors should have to get parental permission for abortion, except in cases of incest (for obvious reasons).

  96. “But if my daughter was raped, I would become a death penalty supporter, and seek to have the rapist executed.”

    Hope you don’t live in Louisiana.

  97. “John | September 9, 2008, 10:03pm | #

    BTW that is an elk she is holding not a moose.”

    I think it’s a reindeer…caribou, whatever. Elk have a different rack. Sharper points..looking at the ones in the room here anyway. They have a sharper face as well. Could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

    If the fucking GOP has been using the control my reproductive choices in their platform, they can kiss my ass, now that their new found concerns about sexism seem to be a cover for Palin.

    If Sarah Palin and her followers wants to be all passive/aggressive about her place in national poltics..she’s a pitbull!!/She’s a Mom!!!..they can suck it.

    Buck up Sarah..welcome to national politics.

  98. Buck up Sarah..welcome to national politics.

    I think she personally has. Where has she done any whining?

  99. She hasn’t, but her supporters sure have been.

  100. capelza,

    That thing is too big to be a caribu. It is an elk. Caribu are only a few hundred pounds. Elk are huge.

  101. “Tell me, BDB, would *you* support the death penalty for the rapist of your 13-year-old daughter?

    I worked with a teen mom impregnated at 12 by a twenty-seven-year-old, clearly the victim of statutory rape. She carried the baby to term and became a good mother. I’m glad that choice was an option for her.

  102. John-

    The campaigning is whining that Obama saying “McCain is putting lipstick on a pig” by trying to make himself into a change agent is somehow a sexist attack on Palin.

  103. John, I’m thinking that..I know how big elk are . Thing is, if memory serves Elk are a tramsplanted species on Afognak Island to the north of Kodiak. I think it’s the only place.

    However, just looked up caribou…they can weigh 500+ pounds. Which surprises me, I have to say. It’s the muzzle, though, that does it and the rack, it’s not a standard elk rack, But it does look like a caribou rack.

  104. “The campaigning is whining that Obama saying “McCain is putting lipstick on a pig” by trying to make himself into a change agent is somehow a sexist attack on Palin.”

    How is that any different than the “Mecaca” controversy? Does anyone honetly beleive the guy meant to be racist? No. He was dumb and careless. Obama was dumb and careless. That is just hardball politics. You don’t think if McCain had said something like “pot calling kettle black” or niggerdly, the Obama people wouldn’t be having a fit? Of course they would.

  105. I didn’t know elk were transplants. That is a caribu then. I guess caribu are bigger than raindeer.

  106. John–

    No, it’s not like the Macaca controversy.

    This is on the level of those psychos that said John McCain’s “Celebrity” ad was racist because his ad had Brittney Spears in it.

  107. “No, it’s not like the Macaca controversy. ”

    I thought the macaca controversy was rediculous and stupid. I think this is to. But sadly that is how politics work. Obama knows that and shoudl have been more careful about his words.

  108. John, Macaca blew up because anyone in Virginia can tell you George Allen has a bit of a checkered history on race. If that had been all he had done he would still be Senator. But there was more. Ask Larry Sabato about George Allen at UVA.

  109. “John, Macaca blew up because anyone in Virginia can tell you George Allen has a bit of a checkered history on race. ”

    True, but he could have been a freedom rider and they still would have gone after him for it. It just woulnd’t have been effective. I doubt this will be that effective, but it will throw Obama off message for a day or two and that is the point.

  110. You left out championing eugenics, Joe. No doubt just an oversight.

    You’re bringing in a completely irrelevant point that has nothing to do with the conversation I was having with someone else, on a different subject. No doubt your usual incapacity to go to toe to toe with me, and need to score irrelevant cheap shots.

  111. Only John can hear someone using a racial slur, a word that has no other meaning than as a racial slur, used to refer to a dark skinned guy by a pasty white guy to whip up his pasty white followers, and think there was no intent to use it as a racial slur.

    Just as long as the speaker was a Republican, that is.

    Freedom riders don’t use the French Algerian word for nigger. Even the ones with French Algerian mothers.

  112. I wonder what John would think if Barack Obama told the only white guy in an all-black crowd in southside Chicago “Welcome to the real Chicago, cracker!”

  113. I know what I would think: Obama rulez! I use “cracka” all the time.

    ‘course I’m white and that word has a deep and offensive history with mah peeps, so only people of my race can use it.

  114. “You’re bringing in a completely irrelevant point that has nothing to do with the conversation I was having with someone else”

    Gee, I missed the Joe controls free speach memo. Gotta link?

  115. “I guess caribu are bigger than raindeer.”

    They are the same thing – Rangifer tarandus. They are in the family Cervidae, as in deer (deer, elk, moose, and so forth). But that is, without a doubt, a Caribou/Reindeer.

  116. “Margerat Sanger was a nasty piece of work that is true. The old school feminists, Friedman, Steinem and the lot have a real contempt for motherhood. That is where they lose most women. Most women don’t find marital sex to be rape and want to be mothers. Old school feminists hate that. The fact that Palin has five kids does not endear her to them.”

    Where can I buy one of them there free speech credentials Joe is referencing, John? I’d love to own one.

  117. “No doubt your usual incapacity to go to toe to toe with me, and need to score irrelevant cheap shots”

    My “usually incapacity”, Joe? I just started posting here last night. WTF is wrong with you?

  118. “WTF is wrong with you?”

    “Only John can hear someone using a racial slur, a word that has no other meaning than as a racial slur, used to refer to a dark skinned guy by a pasty white guy to whip up his pasty white followers, and think there was no intent to use it as a racial slur.”

    Asked and answered, Joe. If tha i’s your real name.

  119. “Caribou”

    I believe you are correct. Am I allowed to say that here? I’m not sure. My papers aren’t in order. Please advise.

  120. joe has a slight Napoleonic complex on these here boards, Libertarian. I’ve seen him more than once refer to “kicking someone’s ass” in the “debates” we have here.

    It’s a little sad, actually.

  121. “joe has a slight Napoleonic complex on these here boards, Libertarian. I’ve seen him more than once refer to “kicking someone’s ass” in the “debates” we have here.

    It’s a little sad, actually.”

    Thanks. Will keep that in mind.

  122. “I wonder what John would think if Barack Obama told the only white guy in an all-black crowd in southside Chicago “Welcome to the real Chicago, cracker!””

    I’d think Barack didn’t know is Negro League Baseball history.

  123. I must’ve missed when John called McCain sexist when he called Hillary’s health care plan putting lipstick on a pig.

    This would be as idiotic if McCain said, “The pot calling the kettle black” about some Obama statement and the inevitable cries from some lefties that it was a racist comment.

    It’s fun* to see the right pick up grievance and identity politics though. I guess it just goes to show that conservatives opposed grievance and identity politics in the past not out of principle, but because they didn’t have enough prominent women and minorities to get defensive about.

    * And by fun, I mean unsurprising and obnoxious.

  124. There’s nothing wrong with religious nuts. I think priests should be holy fools who have to be led to alter by Rose the church lady, to say Sunday mass because they’re half blind from saying the rosary for three straight days,…

    If they are half blind, it is probably from ministering to Rose and her five sisters for three, straight days rather than saying the rosary. 😉

  125. “No doubt your usual incapacity to go to toe to toe with me, and need to score irrelevant cheap shots”

    Libertarian went toe to to with you late last night on the community organizer thread. Hyserical amnesia run in yor family?

    https://www.reason.com/blog/show/128679.html#comments

  126. Libertarian went toe to to with you late last night on the community organizer thread. Hyserical amnesia run in yor family?

    https://www.reason.com/blog/show/128679.html#comments

    Specifically, Libertarian posted the following in response to joe and it left joe dumbfounded. joe continued posting and responding to others for a while so it wasn’t like he’d gone home or something.

    “Libertarian | September 8, 2008, 8:41pm | #

    “How about you, Libertarian? Bang a lot of nails, spend a lot of your evenings at board meetings?”

    I inherited my grandparent’s house. It has served me well. I am nearing retirement and in the process of renovating the property with the expressed purpose of donating its use (not the asset itself, its use) to a non-profit that would use it to house two parenting or pregnant teens who are actively seeking a high school diploma. That’s what compelled me to ask you what you were doing. And your answer is — apparently nothing.”.

  127. I’d like to second or third Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven.

    “Dispossessed” is pretty awesome as well.

    Orynx and Crank is left wing nuttery written by a writer well past her prime.

  128. Sigh. I thought I had resolved not to become embroiled in certain controversial topics on this blog. Because the perennial debate rages on, and no one’s mind is ever changed. Because I’ve already stated my case and made my arguments. And I’m getting sick of repeating them.

    But I can’t help jumping into the debate one more time:

    The animal in that photo is definitely a CARIBOU.

    Which is also the wild form of the domesticated animal called the reindeer. They are the same species.

    Definitely a caribou. The shape of the antlers — laterally compressed,with rounded points — and the blunt white muzzle are extremely distinctive and diagnostic. Unmistakeable. Do a Google image search for “moose,” “elk” and “caribou” and see for yourselves.

    Settled.

  129. Why does Katherine Mangu-Ward want a candidate who promises to cut taxes? Any fool can promise that. Some fools can actually deliver it. I want a candidate that promises to cut spending, thereby promising to actually reduce the size of government.

  130. Macaca is a North African slang? Who knows that? Maybe George Allen, like Joe apparently, is some kind of anthropologist of racist slurs accross the world. I am not sure not and thought the mecaca thing was stupid. I think the lipstick on a pig thing is stupid to. But, that is how politics is played these days. Obama is supposed to be a political genius. You would think he would know how phrase things better than that. Since he didn’t, he can spend the next two news cycles explaining himself and not getting his message out. What can you say? Politics is a contact sport.

  131. “Are you just going to keep obliquely accusing people of being racists and pro-rape?”

    My your touchy TAO. On your period?

    Not pro-rape and racist, but women and blacks can smell a mile away someone who has little concern for them when those people hear “rape” and think first thing of the poor people accused of rape and not, well, the more numerous women who are raped or who hear the word “racism” and think first thing of affirmative action and not, well, black victims of racism (that’s the analogy part, I know your bad at that so I’m giving you a free example ;)). I say this as someone who has a real concern for the rights of the accused and someone who is totally opposed to affrimative action. The difference is I think rape is a huge problem and racism against blacks is too. Whereas your first inclination seems to be concern for, well, people like you in this area.

    “Have you ever been on the wrong end of a capricious rape allegation? No? Then shut the fuck up.”

    Uhh, no I haven’t. In fact, no guy I know personally has. Wow, you need to check something if you’ve been on the wrong end of many a capricous rape allegation…

  132. “Have you ever been on the wrong end of a capricious rape allegation? No? Then shut the fuck up.”

    What the hell kind of sense does that make? I have never been on the wrong end of a botched drug raid either, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist or that I can’t have genuine concern for the people it happens to.

  133. TAO
    I’m starting to connect the dots. Your irrational Palin feelings over the past weeks, your anger at being falsely accused of rape.

    Was it Bristol TAO?

  134. Macaca is a North African slang? Who knows that? Maybe George Allen, like Joe apparently, is some kind of anthropologist of racist slurs accross the world

    Or maybe his mother is a French Algerian. Why, yes, she is. As was widely reported.

    Anyway, it’s good to see I’ve got another fanboi who can’t stop posting personal messages to me. *kiss kiss* Libertarian.

  135. fanboi? Joe. The term boi is a lesbian slang used for women who are masculine but submissive. Are you insulting the lesbian community here?

  136. your anger at being falsely accused of rape.

    It could not possibly be that I could imagine and/or empathize with someone falsely accused, oh no.

    you know MNG? You’re not worth my time. Asshole.

  137. Uhh, no I haven’t. In fact, no guy I know personally has. Wow, you need to check something if you’ve been on the wrong end of many a capricous rape allegation…

    uh, no you don’t. That’s why they’re called capricious, genius.

    Secondly, one is all it takes to destroy a man’s life and reputation, you prick.

  138. LoL, John. “Fanboi” had migrated, and entered common usage as a term for an overly-enthusiastic, worshipful fan of somebody of something, with a connotation of having a crush.

  139. Libertarian, let me explain to you how this “free speach” thing you referenced works.

    You are free to write anything you want. Like, for example, when I’m discussing with someone the role feminists played in advocating for women’s autonomy in reproductive choices, you are perfectly free to chime in with a completely irrelevant snark about a different topic, like eugenics, and accuse me of making an “oversight.”

    Then, I’m have “free speach” to point out that, rather being an oversight, I didn’t mention that topic because it nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    And then, you are perfectly free to write one of your usual comments about what a terrible person I am for not agreeing with you.

    Clear?

  140. PS, joe “i’s” my real name. You can tell by the email, pseudonymn-guy-who-doesn’t-post-an-email.

  141. Granger | September 10, 2008, 12:26am | #

    Libertarian went toe to to with you late last night on the community organizer thread.

    No, he didn’t. As I was in the middle of a discussion about the role of community organizers in tipping the balance of political power towards the less powerful, the lack of interest in that project among libertarians, and the phoniness of using the “non-initiation of force” argument against people working to help communities that have long had force initiated against them, “Libertarian” chimed in with the accusation that I am a terrible, terrible person.

    That’s not “going toe to toe,” that’s doding the debate and launching an ad homenim.

  142. “No, he didn’t. As I was in the middle of a discussion about the role of community organizers in tipping the balance of political power towards the less powerful, the lack of interest in that project among libertarians, and the phoniness of using the “non-initiation of force” argument against people working to help communities that have long had force initiated against them, “Libertarian” chimed in with the accusation that I am a terrible, terrible person.

    That’s not “going toe to toe,” that’s doding the debate and launching an ad homenim.”

    That’s just bullshit joe. You asked Libertarian what he did to improve society and he told you. He then asked what are you doing? How is that an attack on you? You’re not making sense here.

  143. Just to be sure, joe, I reviewed this thread and not once did Libertarian attack you. Not once. Every post was civil and respectful to you, James, Weigel and even Sambo.

    So put up or shut up.

  144. TAO
    First you say this:
    “Have you ever been on the wrong end of a capricious rape allegation? No? Then shut the fuck up.”

    As if only those who have been accused of this can empathise. Then you later you say:

    “It could not possibly be that I could imagine and/or empathize with someone falsely accused, oh no.”

    So does a person need to be charged with that kind of thing to understand or not?

    This Palin thing has really muddled your mind (more than usual).

    Have you looked into those adult education classes we talked about? They are not perfect but they would make our debates into something a little less of the spanking that I have to administer to you all the time.

    It’s not too late, remember Sarah Palin had to go to multiple schools over years to get her bachelors degree in journalism, so you can do it too!

  145. What difference does it make what they look like? If they both have a soul, they both have a soul.

    Um, and what about if neither has a soul? Because, neither has a soul. Christ.

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