McCain Picks Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin

It's Palin, folks. Looks like McCain does want those disgruntled Hillary voters. And Palin's strong anti-abortion views won't hurt with the social cons either.

Comments

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Nick looks almost prescient today.

[Brownie]

So a one-term US Senator from Illinois isn't qualified to be president, but a one-term Governor of Alaska is ready to take over when McCain inevitably croaks?

[phalkor]

Really? that's effin sweet, this show keeps getting better and better! This season is so good, I wonder if they'll ever top it.

[Ska]

Considering Alaska's lax marijuana laws (I think, I might be wrong), and McCain's wife's inclination to pill popping, can Palin help convince that old bastard to chill out on this front? That would go along way to pacify me as I wallow in the crapulance of a McCain administration (if it came to be).

[Seitz]

As I said in the other thread, I think she brings as many negatives as positives, but it will sure make it an interesting two months. On the plus side for the Republicans, she could bring in some Hillary hold outs. I imagine she's a good campaigner. The kid with Down's Syndrome is a good story. It will be hard for Biden to attach her in the debates.

On the downside, she's still really pro-life, so while it riles up the base, it won't bring a lot of cross-over voters. She's arguably less experienced than Obama, so it blunts that line of attack from McCain. How can you argue the importance of experience when you think a first term governor of a sparsely populated state (which I love, by the way - my brother lives there) is experienced enough to beat one heartbeat away from the Presidency? She has her own abuse of power issue going on, though that may be overblown.

I saw Pawlenty as a pretty safe choice, but that's mostly because I figured he'd bring Minnesota along, and I don't know enough about him to have a strong negative opinion. Credit to McCain for not making the safe choice, but I'm not sure it's the right choice. I guess it comes down to how many Hillary voters they think they can really grab. I assume they focus grouped it, but I'm not sure how much you can focus group someone that not too many people have ever heard of.

Maybe they think the experience and celebrity arguments have run their course and wouldn't have helped much over the rest of the campaign. They also may be able to get Biden to say something something dismissive or sexist in a debate. Seems like a big gamble, though. And count me as one who thinks the age gap doesn't really help. It just makes McCain look older. Then again, he now has at least one, attractive woman on his campaign team who doesn't steal drugs from charities (as far as we know).

[Troy]

A fellow University of Idaho alumni. Go Vandals!!!!!
Wow! Finally, this election got interesting.

[Citizen Nothing]

I called it in the bar last night. My pals now think I'm a god of politicial science. I'll never admit I get my tips from a guy in a leather jacket.

[Ironchef]

She looks like Karen Walker from Will and Grace.

(squeaky voice)
"Honey, I don't read. I'm read to. Now where's my martini?"

[Michael]

You know, in theory, I'd love to vote for a presidential ticket consisting of a crazy, ex-POW/Navy captain who took over Barry Goldwater's seat in the Senate, and a kinda-hot maverick female Governor from Alaska. In reality, John McCain is a complete tool.

[smacky]

So a one-term US Senator from Illinois isn't qualified to be president, but a one-term Governor of Alaska is ready to take over when McCain inevitably croaks?

Wow, so there really will be a woman president finally.

[Roger Maltz]

Big mistake. While I do not care for Mitt Romney, he may have been the better person for the VP pick.

[robc]

Brownie,

Check out my quick study in one of the threads below. It turns out Palin has just the right amount of experience to be a kick ass "take over when the other guy dies" President.

[smacky]

They also may be able to get Biden to say something something dismissive or sexist in a debate.

Or Obama. You never know. Condescension to a woman comes surprisingly readily to most people.

[lunchstealer]

Whoa. She's got crabs. Although in Alaska that's almost de rigeur.

[sv]

Ska,

are they lax on weed up there in alaska? that would be a nice contrast to drug-warrior Biden. not that the GOP would allow any of that whatsoever. i think this is the best choice mccain could have made. She does make Obama look experienced, foreign-policy wise and nat'l govt-wise, but only Andrew Sullivan could make that argument unabashedly.

[lunchstealer]

She also seems to have bears.

[BDB]

Very bold and game changing.

[robc]

Michael,

Have to agree. I would cast a vote for Zombie-Goldwater/Palin.

[Seitz]

Or Obama. You never know. Condescension to a woman comes surprisingly readily to most people.

Well, OK, but I don't think she and Obama will be debating. What I was getting at wasn't so much a sexist policy position, but a more dismissive comment akin to "likable enough". A sort of "don't worry your pretty little head about that Georgia place" or something. That's much more likely to come in a face to face debate than on the stump or in an interview.

In her favor, she's not the one who'll be president, she's the one who will go the the funeral of heads of state.

Unlike Obama, who really won't know the first thing he's doing on his first day, besides getting a better class of "piece on the side".

And as a bonus, her husband is native american and races snowmobiles!

[Jorgen]

I don't think this will help with the Clintonites, because they wanted Hillary, not a woman president or vice president. I remember hearing about how a bunch of her top supporters were going nuts with rage at the idea that he might pick Sebilus, because she was too nice and unhillarylike.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Love the crustacean on the coffee table. Wonder if it used to belong to Lobster Girl.

[guy in the back row]

Wow, she really locks up the Hasidic and PETA votes with that picture!

[Marcvs]

A strongly pro-life VP candidate with five kids (one of which has Down's Syndrome) that beat the incumbent Republican governor in the primary and a former Democratic governor in the general election? Oh, plus she hunts and fishes and is a lifetime member of the NRA? AND she's attractive? I'm not going to say that she'll get McCain elected, but I think it'll make the race a lot more interesting.

[Fluffy]

As I said below, I don't like this pick because I think it works for McCain.

He needs to peel off a handful of disgruntled Hillary supporters to have any chance. And I think this pick does a lot to torpedo any chance of Barr breaking 1% or 2% on election day.

A percent here and a percent there and McCain has a shot. I don't like it, but it's true.

[SugarFree]

smacky,

Condescension to a woman comes surprisingly readily to most people.

Sweetie, just leave the commentating to the menfolk. I'm sure there's a sale on shoes out there somewhere. Bring the boys some iced tea before you go.

[Shem]

And Palin's strong anti-abortion views won't hurt with the social cons either.

But it will hurt with the Hillary voters. Badly, if the Obama campaign deploys the attacks right. If McCain thought he could have it both ways by naming Palin (pick up Hillary voters while quieting the base) then he's even more senile than his recent public appearances would lead one to believe.

[Seitz]

In her favor, she's not the one who'll be president, she's the one who will go the the funeral of heads of state.

Like McCain's in a year or two!

[Johnny Nowhere]

hmmm, Palin...

don't know much about her.

what are her measurments? B-cup, C-cup or (dare I dream?) D?

[Dagny T.]

Whoa. She's got crabs.

lunchstealer,

See, I thought that would be a point in her favor. Or am I thinking of lobsters?

[P Brooks]

My head, oddly enough, is filled with images of railroad cars sliding along the ground; soon the propane tankers will begin shooting flames hundreds of feet into the air.

Three hundred million people in this, our great land, and we somehow have contrived to end up with these four people. And I suspect Ms Palin is, by far, the one actually capable of doing the best job.

I think I'll go for a ride on my motorcycle, and pretend it's 1962.

[smacky]

SugarFree,

I knew I could rely on you. You're like the changing of the guard. Um, reliable, that is.

Lobster girl, meet Salmon Lady!

[Dagny T.]

Dammit, TWC! That's what I get for not refreshing.

[Shem]

AND she's attractive?

Fucking Christ. If any of you read a newspaper with the headline "Area man still at large after savage beating of McCain supporter--ran from scene ranting about 'rampant misogynism;'" spare a fond thought for your old pal Shem?

[ed]

Finally, a good-looking female VP candidate.
And she's no less accomplished than Geraldine Ferraro.
Added bonus: extinguished the Dem Convention afterglow!
Nice strategic move.

[Shem]

I mean, at some point in the next two months, not right this minute.

[Cracker\'s Boy]

But what was wrong with Condoleeza? She would have picked up the "I will vote for any woman" AND split the "I will vote for any black" voters?

CB

[Shem]

Added bonus: extinguished the Dem Convention afterglow!

Did it? All they're talking about on CNN is the fact that she tried to get her brother-in-law fired after he and her sister divorced.

[Episiarch]

You're all misogynistic scum, talking about her appearance. I would never do that.

[smacky]

Added bonus: extinguished the Dem Convention afterglow!
Nice strategic move.

I have to agree. That's an astute observation. I can see the faces of a million Team Blue fans falling as I type this. Hee.

[John]

I honestly don't know much about this woman. But the bear rug kicks ass. Looking at her she is definitely there to appeal to women. She is good looking but not in a threatening way. She is basically the together good looking career mom a lot of women want to be, rather than a threatening figure.

[brotherben]

A dope-smokin, homo lovin, beauty queen with a history of firing folks that don't agree with her. Married across racial lines to enjoy more animal killin privilages. recently birthed a 5th child that will take all her time as it is mongoloid.
Experience includes being mayor of a town of 8471 people and now in first term as Gov. of Oilaska.

U of I grad!!! What's not to like?

God help us all.

[robc]

Shem,

Are they mentioning him threatening to kill her father? I think that qualifies any cop to be fired, but my standards for cops appear to be higher than the real standard.

[SugarFree]

smacky,

Why you no come around much anymore? Is it because of Epi? I know he kills it for a lot of women.

[Michael]

robc, that would be a fine ticket. Plus, a vote for zombie-Goldwater would really inspire a lot of undead people. You know, zombies are the last group against which discrimination is still tolerated in America.

[Rhywun]

So a one-term US Senator from Illinois isn't qualified to be president, but a one-term Governor of Alaska is ready to take over when McCain inevitably croaks?

If you're looking for an executive type, yes, a governor trumps a senator. Seems quite obvious.

[Marcvs]

How come it's misogynistic to comment on her looks, but it isn't misandry when the discussion is about Bill Clinton or John Edwards.

Just sayin'...

[Billy Beck]

Trophy VP.

Bullshit.

[SugarFree]

Michael,

I don't know about that. In Kentucky werewolf lease laws are a big controversy.

[Episiarch]

Hey, she's kinda hot!

But what was wrong with Condoleeza? She would have picked up the "I will vote for any woman" AND split the "I will vote for any black" voters?

maybe, but she's been sold as being supersmart and evil. Good for an archenemy, not for a friendly leader. Condi's branding sucks, McCain needed to pick someone with exec experince as far away from Washington DC as possible.

Plus this way McCain appears to stick his finger in Rove's eye, completely seperating himself from the current administration.

[ed]

Barack who? Oh yeah.
Heh heh.

[SugarFree]

How come it's misogynistic to comment on her looks, but it isn't misandry when the discussion is about Bill Clinton or John Edwards.

Because "misogyny" is the most improperly used word in the English language.

sexism =/= misogyny

Get your terms of abuse right, cretins.

[troy]

I think her only down side is that she is, apparently, staunchly anti-abortion. Having 5 kids, one with downs, is going to convince many that she can handle chaos. And it isn't like her governorship was her first campaign.

I can't wait to see the pictures of her with guns or gutting a fish.

I have never been impressed with the "experience" thing which I have always thought of as the ability to suck the right cock to get the pork home.

[Marcvs]

Ok, but my point still stands..

[John]

Both her and McCain have kids who have served or will serve in Iraq. That won't stop the Dems from calling them chicken hawks. As far as the abortion thing goes, the Dems will have to tread lightly. The woman has a pretty handicapped kid. That and the fact that she is a woman gives her more cover for being pro life than a man has. I don't think Joe Biden lecturing her in a debate about a woman's right to chose will get them very far.

[brotherben]

But seriously.

Obama's pick of Biden looks like move to get someone to balance his perceived lack of experience.

McCain's pick looks like more of a viva Viagra decision. A person whose most redeemable quality is her looks.

[John]

One other thing on abortion. I would be curious what other peoples' experience is, but my experience is that women who are pro choice but not nutso feminists are much more tolerant of other women being pro life than they are of men being pro life.

[smacky]

What's not to like?

Well, her staunch anti-choice position on abortion. Perhaps she could come around on that point; I'm not sure since I don't know that much about how "staunch" could be defined in her case.

Other than that, she does seem pretty badass, at first blush.

[Shem]

Are they mentioning him threatening to kill her father?

Don't seem to be. Which, given their coverage of the Obama smears, probably only proves that CNN is really shitty at journalism.

[ed]

Governor of the largest state in the nation!
Granted, most of her constituents are wildlife...
But tasty wildlife! Win-win!

[Pro Libertate]

Just for the record, the Urkobold revealed that McCain would be selecting Palin in mid-May. So there!

The pro-life position may not hurt her as much as people think. The fact that she put her money where her mouth is shows that she has personal principles, something lacking in most politicians, it seems. What a horrible thing to contend with, too, knowing that your child won't be normal.

[SugarFree]

Marcvs,

No, you're correct. Just like it was sexist to talk about sexy female Olympic athletes, but shirtless Micheal Phelps was A-OK.

Women like to think that men discount women based on their looks. They do. But that's not going to stop until we are all turned gay or are castrated.

The desire to have men stop judging women on their looks is a sublimated wish to castrate straight men.

[troy]

A dope-smokin, homo lovin, beauty queen with a history of firing folks that don't agree with her. Married across racial lines to enjoy more animal killin privilages. recently birthed a 5th child that will take all her time as it is mongoloid.
Experience includes being mayor of a town of 8471 people and now in first term as Gov. of Oilaska.

U of I grad!!! What's not to like?

Those are bad things? What's fucking wrong with U of I?

[Shem]

Having 5 kids, one with downs, is going to convince many that she can handle chaos.

It also stands to convince some people that she should be taking care of her disabled child. Which is tremendously unfair to her. But it won't stop it from being said.

Smacky-Her stance on abortion isn't changing. She's sent out letters saying "[I've] adamantly supported our cause since I first understood, as a child, the atrocity of abortion." Just about as anti-choice as you can get.

[Ska]

SV - from NORML's website, possession of less than an ounce or 25 plants is not a crime.

[robc]

I can't wait to see the pictures of her with guns or gutting a fish.

Doesnt the fish gutting competition determine 20% of the points or am I thinking of some other reality show?

[NP]

You guys are hopeless. Who cares about some MILF VP VIP while the US Open is going on, with Federer up next in an hour or two? Get your priorities straight, people.

[robc]

It also stands to convince some people that she should be taking care of her disabled child.

The VP position will give her plenty of time for that.

[Episiarch]

Who cares about some MILF VP VIP while the US Open is going on, with Federer up next in an hour or two?

Fag. Nadal will win, anyway.

[Citizen Nothing]

Sarah Palin = Laura Roslin. But will she be willing to flush folks out the airlock?

[Dawgfan]

Why do people assume that being pro-life will hurt her with women? The last ten polls I read show that women are actually more likely to be pro-life than men (but, just barely) and the issue is pretty much split 50/50 in this country.

[Pro Libertate]

Again, NP cuts to the chase. This campaign is the least interesting thing happening in the U.S. today. I couldn't agree more.

Our general apathy about these idiots in Washington is what makes us great.

[Shem]

The desire to have men stop judging women on their looks is a sublimated wish to castrate straight men.

Or it could be a desire to actually see some men behave with some common fucking courtesy, and not just say every stupid comment that pops into their head.

[brotherben]

troy,

actually I was talkin with my tongue firmly in my cheek.

re: U of I, I was just hackin on ya. Nothin wrong with the schooling there. I'm just a tool sometimes.

[DADIODADDY]

way better legs than Hillary, oh and Brownie...at least she has some executive experience, unlike the democrat senatorial duo.

[TallDave]

Aside from scooping up Hillary-backers and evangelicals, the best part about this pick is when people criticize her inexperience they're also attacking the top of the Dem ticket.

[Taktix?]

Palin said she has smoked marijuana -- remember, it was legal under state law, she said, even if illegal under U.S. law -- but says she didn't like it and doesn't smoke it now.

Not perfect, but somewhat interesting...

[smacky]

Just for the record, the Urkobold revealed that McCain would be selecting Palin in mid-May. So there!

Wow, holy shit. Awesome! Urkobold really is brilliant. I had underestimated Him. (better not let Him catch wind of that).

[trembling]

[Shem]

Why do people assume that being pro-life will hurt her with women?

I would say that it's not that it will hurt her with women, it's that it will hurt her with the sort of women that McCain was hoping to be able to pick up; disgruntled Clinton voters who want a woman to be President, and who are much, much more likely to view reproductive rights as one of the more important issues in the election. People who think that Palin will be able to peel off those voters don't really understand just who those voters are and what motivates them.

[Troy]

brotherben:

Cool Beans bro.

[SugarFree]

Shem,

Nope. Men can no more keep themselves from judging women on their looks than you could just magically will yourself into not having any more periods. It's a bodily function.

[Team America]

@Everybody
Relax until the sex-tape is released. Only then will we know if she spits, swallows or gargles.

@robc
What's the VP position? I hope it has nothing to do with Germans urinating.

[Pro Libertate]

smacky,

I know, it's amazing. Remember, back in May, she was probably at the bottom of the possible list of VP candidates.

For the record, this was really posted in May. I feel I need to say that, since the Urkobold has been known to play with the time of certain postings.

[Seitz]

Both her and McCain have kids who have served or will serve in Iraq. That won't stop the Dems from calling them chicken hawks.

Right, John, because they'e been doing nothing but calling McCain a Chickenhawk non-stop. Typical bullshit post from John.

[TrickyVic]

I'm glad someone in this race isn't from the Senate.

[NP]

Epi, actually I think Djokovic has a pretty good chance. Remember, he beat Nadal twice already, in Indian Wells and just recently in Cincy.

Pro Libertate, I was only half serious, but thanks.

[John]

Seitz,

What was that last night about McCain not being man enough to go after Bin Ladin's cave. They will call Pailin a chickenhawk right after they say something nasty about her handicapped kid. What do want to bet the handicapped kid jokes are flying on Kos right now.

[TallDave]

Does anyone know her position on the WoD? Obviously she was governor (governess?) of a state where marijuana is mostly legal, but beyond that...?

Men can no more keep themselves from judging women on their looks

Next you'll tell women can't help judging men based on their status.

[Episiarch]

Or it could be a desire to actually see some men behave with some common fucking courtesy, and not just say every stupid comment that pops into their head.

A little sand in your vagina today, Shem?

[NP]

I mean Djoko beat Nadal on hard courts twice already this year. As usual I blame the keyboard.

[Episiarch]

Epi, actually I think Djokovic has a pretty good chance. Remember, he beat Nadal twice already, in Indian Wells and just recently in Cincy.

Nadal is peaking, dude. And he doesn't make errors. To be honest, the guy creeps me out a little. I am Mr. Unforced Error and he is Mr. I Never Error.

[P1t]

I can't believe my joke about Palin being the female VP choice for McCain came true. I thought that if he were to choose a woman for VP, it ought to be Palin (Because she is nice-looking as opposed to the other woman, especially for the male voters). Honestly, I can't say whether it is a good choice. An interesting one, that it is. But the right one? Not to mention, we either get a president who happens to have a father from Kenya (Which I guess makes him black) or a vice-president who happens to be a woman (An interesting one, nonetheless. I mean, she sounds like a tough woman). I am willing to put my money on McCain (Not that I would vote for him. Just that I think he has better chances to win), but who knows?

[Shem]

Men can no more keep themselves from judging women on their looks than you could just magically will yourself into not having any more periods. It's a bodily function.

True, but they can stop themselves from talking about it *every single time* a woman is running for a position in government. It's a simple matter of exercising the self-control to actually think about what you're saying and whether it's appropriate before you say it.

[SugarFree]

Federer is like going to the nicest restaurant in the world and ordering an unsalted cracker and room temperature tap water. It may be the best cracker and tap water possible, but it's still just a cracker and tap water.

Djokovic has a chance, but he's streaky.

The women's draw is completely up in the air. Not one solid player in the bunch. On their best days the top 7 can beat anyone; one their worst, anyone can beat them. It should be a wild ride.

[TrickyVic]

"""Aside from scooping up Hillary-backers and evangelicals, the best part about this pick is when people criticize her inexperience they're also attacking the top of the Dem ticket."""

Why do you kid yourself that people are not two-faced when it comes to their candidates. Their candidate can be inexperienced but the other can't. That's par for politics.

[Seitz]

What do want to bet the handicapped kid jokes are flying on Kos right now.

Well, if they're flying, then surely you can go over there and find a couple to post here. Have at it, dipshit.

What was that last night about McCain not being man enough to go after Bin Ladin's cave.

John, do you know what a Chickenhawk is? It's someone who supports war, but never wanted to fight in one (like the two guys in the executive right now, for example). How is saying that he wouldn't go after bin Laden because he wanted to attack Iraq instead calling him a Chickenhawk. I used to think you were at least intelligent, but misguided. Now I think you're just a dumbass.

[Tom Walls]

What a brilliant choice, and what a strong contrast to old-guard career politician Biden.

I met McCain in Orlando last October, and I said he should choose a libertarian-leaning conservative like Mark Sanford or Sarah Palin. He repeated his same old line about appealing to libertarians and vegetarians. Who knows if anything sunk in.

[Episiarch]

The women's draw is completely up in the air.

Who cares who wins? It's all about watching them. Play, that is. Yeah.

[Taktix?]

All men-women battles aside, is any woman here going to say that her appearance had NO PART in her being the choice for VP?

In a ideal world, it wouldn't be a factor. Problem is, we don't live in said world...

[John]

Seitz,

I have a lot of friends in the special ops community who missed the memo that we didn't go after Bin Ladin. Further, if Bin Ladin is still alive, he is in Pakistan. Does Obama plan to declare war on Pakistan to go get him? Does he plan to bomb an allied country without the support or authorization of the UN?

Obama has never shown one once of physical courage in his entire life. That statement was probably the low point of political discourse in my lifetime. To see someone like Obama, who has never served anything in his life beyond himself, calling out the physical courage of someone who won the medal of honor makes me want to vomit. If he thinks that McCain wouldn't go strong enough after Bin Ladin, then say it. But don't make some smart ass remark about who would really go into what cave. I am not the only veteren who was offended by that remark.

[capelza]

Well this woman is sick to death of the "creationism should be taught in science classes" thing..and Palin has said exactly that.

One step forward, two steps back.

[NP]

Oh, I know that, Epi. But did you see that SF in Beijing between the two? Djoko was clearly the better player in the 2nd set and most of the 3rd set except for the last 3 or 4 games. I'm sure he's quite ready to get his revenge.

SugarFree, not sure if you're talking about pre-2008 Federer, but see what you're saying. And I still say Djoko on his best day beats Nadal on his best day on HC. And yeah, the WTA is pretty chaotic right now. My pick is either Safina or Serena, but Dementieva could make another run.

[yarrrr]

She's good on guns, energy, and the club for growth like her...

[NP]

Epi, you do know Pova and Ana is out, right? Hmm... what's that F-word you used?

[affenkopf]

Tennis must be the second most boring sport in the world right after baseball.

[Franklin Harris]

Like a said two days ago:

Dream scenario: McCain picks Sarah Palin as his VP nominee. They win. McCain has a debilitating stroke. Palin becomes the first woman president. The heads of Hillary, Bill, and all the PUMAs explode simultaneously.

Step 1, check.

[JW]

It's a simple matter of exercising the self-control to actually think about what you're saying and whether it's appropriate before you say it.

Are you sure you're in the right office? The Enlightened Male? Project is down the hall.

[NP]

It just came to my mind that McCain has two MILFs (or GILFs, if you wanna be pedantic) on his side. Who cares the guy is a seventysomething? He's going great by any dude's standards.

[Seitz]

I have a lot of friends in the special ops community who missed the memo that we didn't go after Bin Ladin.

Why do you keep changing the subject, John? Do you know what a Chickenhawk is or not? I don't think you do.

I'm also waiting for all of those Down's Syndrome jokes you assured me were out there. And I don't mean comments that you leave over there yourself. I want to see a thread rollicking with Down's Syndrome jokes.

As for bin Laden, go ahead and ask "not really a priority" Bush about him. And since you're an idiot, I'll explain the gates of hell thing to you. Obama, for better or worse, said that if we had actual actionable intelligence that bin Laden was in Afghanistan, he wouldn't hesitate to go after him. He was criticized roundly for talking about invading a sovereign nation, because apparently we don't do that or something (though a whole lot of dead Iraqis would be surprised to hear that).

[NP]

Pova and Ana ARE out. This time I blame Palin.

affenkopf, you're insane. NTTAWWT.

[Episiarch]

Epi, you do know Pova and Ana is out, right? Hmm... what's that F-word you used?

No, I didn't. Fangul?

[SugarFree]

Seitz,

Every male moron in the country is thinkin' "i bet she'd bear my retahd for me."

by Stuarte on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 08:43:03 AM PDT

It wasn't very hard. You're not one of those people who think liberals shit rainbows, are you? Of course they are going to go after the kid. If not blatantly, then obliquely:

how long it will take before we're treated to the ultimate play of political cynicism: "You can't attack her, her child has Down's syndrome."

by acb15 on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 09:04:21 AM PDT

And they are making fun of her looks.

What it says to everyone, men and women alike, is that Senator McCain is willing to sacrifice everything to win. That he is willing to choose a running mate worse than Dan Quayle and with far less relevant experience than Barack Obama. That he is willing to choose someone who is NOT qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency.

A Barbie Doll, if you will.

by AnnaMolly on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 09:04:01 AM PDT

[Shem]

Are you sure you're in the right office? The Enlightened Male? Project is down the hall.

I had no idea self-control and politeness were so immasculating. You must be an absolute joy for your mother and sisters to be around.

[The Angry Optimist]

Do you know what a Chickenhawk is or not?

An older gay man who goes after twinks?

*Sigh* I guess 9/11 really did change everything.

[Urkobold?]

THE URKOBOLD NOTES FOR THE RECORD THAT GOV. PALIN HAS A HOT, NEARLY LEGAL DAUGHTER. BEHOLD THE RACK--THE URKOBOLD MEANS YOUNG WOMAN--ON THE RIGHT.

[travman67]

I am listening to her on the radio and she has that typical grating voice of the Northwest Yankee. As a transplant from Seattle to Texas, it is the most unattractive feature on most of the women here. Shallow I may be, but I was happy not to be haveing to watch Hillary and I am now sorry I will have to hear Palin's soundbites. Cruel world...

[NP]

Epi, I was thinking fahionista. You see, there's no way I would've even thought anything demeaning towards women.

[joshua corning]

So a one-term US Senator from Illinois isn't qualified to be president, but a one-term Governor of Alaska is ready to take over when McCain inevitably croaks?

Yes....executive experience.

[The Angry Optimist]

affenkopf, you're insane. NTTAWWT.

Concur. Everyone knows that golf and NASCAR compete for the #1 and #2 spots of "more boring than Mark Warner".

Although baseball should be put up there. Tennis may not be your bag, but if you know what's going on, no stretch of the imagination can make it *boring*

[smacky]

All men-women battles aside, is any woman here going to say that her appearance had NO PART in her being the choice for VP?

Taktix,

The GOP being what it is, I'm sure that her looks played a part in her selection. If she had been selected only for her looks and not her credentials and character, that would be discouraging indeed. However, that doesn't appear to be the case. Her looks appear to be only icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course I'm willing to entertain the possibility that if she had looked "haggard" or unattractive or overweight that a large contingent of men wouldn't be so sanguine about her. That's a possibility, and if I want to be cynical I might even say a probability. But there's really no benefit from speculating about that, and I think if anything it would just be unnecessarily downbeat. If she were the same person but unattractive and everyone was down on her for that, sure I'd be dismayed. But I'm sure that Romney and Edwards and Obama are successful in part because of their looks, too. There have been studies showing that attractive people of either gender generally do better in life than unattractive people, generally because people are willing to give attractive people the benefit of the doubt, apparently for some primitive, lizard-brain instinctual reason.

[Episiarch]

I had no idea self-control and politeness were so immasculating. You must be an absolute joy for your mother and sisters to be around.

They're emasculating, too! That's why I tuck my dick between my legs a la Buffalo Bill before I use self-control. I also then murder my sense of humor and tie a cinderblock to my sense of fun before I throw it in the lake. You must be a blast at the co-ed naked volleyball matches, dude.

[Mike Espinoza]

She just pronounced nuclear new-kew-ler. Doh!

[Fluffy]

OK, I am less worried about this pick than before. This is a really blah uninspiring debut. Her timing if off and this crowd doesn't know what to make of her - the applause seems forced and rote and perfunctory.

[&]

Shem, no one here is going to fuck you. Sheathe your sword.

[Transponder]

In that Urkobold photo, check out the little girl. Is it just me, or does she look like she is about to turn into an It's Alive kid and eat the photographer?

[NP]

The Angry Optimist,

Actually golf hasn't been a snoozefest since Tiger showed up. My pick for the most boring sport? Marbles.

[svf]

Hooray! The Dems no longer have a monopoly on identity politics!

CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!

RIP GOP.

[MMan]

Nicknamed "Sarah Barracuda" from her high-school basketball days and on into politics.

Good enough for me!

[SugarFree]

I, for one, welcome Shem's shrill and unpleasant demeanor. At least it's a new shrill and unpleasant demeanor.

[Rhywun]

People have been swooning over Obama's looks for months. I see nothing wrong with commenting on Palin's looks. Hell, that's half the qualification for the job, anyway.

[mk]

I also then murder my sense of humor and tie a cinderblock to my sense of fun

Oh I see the problem. You think you are funny.

[The Angry Optimist]

RIP GOP.

oh riiight...'cause the GOP was doing so well before picking a woman for the sake of identity politics.

The GOP's been engaged in identity politics for decades. Christian identity* (not that one) politics for sure; national identity, etc.

Granted, I find "race/age/sexual orientation" identity politics more noxious, hence why I hate Rs but really hate Ds, but nonetheless, the GOP has never dropped identity politics.

[TrickyVic]

""""Obama has never shown one once of physical courage in his entire life. """

I didn't know you were such an expert on the life of Obama. I don't know his history well enough to evaluate the truthfulness of that claim. For some reason, I doubt you do too.

"""I have a lot of friends in the special ops community who missed the memo that we didn't go after Bin Ladin. Further, if Bin Ladin is still alive, he is in Pakistan."""

You don't need a memo to NOT go after someone. Did they get the memo to get OBL? That's the memo I want to know about.

The older I get, the more I agree with George Carlin, it's an illusion of choice. Ruffly the same shit's going to happen regardless of who gets in office. A D or R by their name won't change much. I voted for Bush in 2000 on his limited government, pro-gun campaign, how did that workout?

She may seem a little anti-prohibition, and she is from a state that seems to take personal liberties serious. I bet that changes if she becomes VP.

I thought a guy that loved drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll as much as anyone would ease the drug war, but he ended up being one of the worst.

[troy]

Or it could be a desire to actually see some men behave with some common fucking courtesy, and not just say every stupid comment that pops into their head.

This might be a blow to your world view but appreciating a woman for her intelligence and her looks are not mutually exclusive concepts. Some men have evolved.

I'd rather have a date with Condelezza Rice or Jennifer than some Hollywood bimbo anyday! Looking at some nice tits is OK. But talking with someone with nice tits about Euthyphro question is to die for. I want children with that sort of person.

[joshua corning]

An older gay man who goes after twinks?

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinking

[SugarFree]

NP,

It's just that I find Federer extremely boring to watch. It doesn't take anything away from his dominance of the sport for so long, but boring is boring.

I'd rather watch someone like Roddick, barely contained rage. But being a Roddick fan is some tough going nowadays.

[Episiarch]

Oh I see the problem. You think you are funny.

No. I know it. Confidence is everything.

[Urkobold?]

AT LAST, A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE/VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE THAT AMERICA WOULD LIKE TO SEE NAKED. MEN LOVE HER. WOMEN WANT TO HAVE LESBIAN SEX WITH HER.

THE URKOBOLD WANTS TO VISIT HIS BUNK.

[EcoDude]

Actually, I find the KosKidz defense of Amtrak much more offensive than any jokes about a person's child...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/29/1201/95899/169/577497

[Episiarch]

Federer is boring. He's awesome, yet boring. Kinda sux. McEnroe is unequal-able anyway. "Are you fucking blind, ref?!?"

[The Angry Optimist]

corning:

Chickenhawk Explained.

So there ya go.

It doesn't take anything away from his dominance of the sport for so long, but boring is boring.

That's how I feel about Tiger. He dominates a sport that manages to bore me with its highlight reels. Yikes.

[NP]

SugarFree,

As you already know too well, many tennis connoisseurs would say Roddick is more fun off the court than on. You know, the "one-dimensional" schtick and all that.

I do enjoy watching Fed, though no one is gonna convince me he would've beaten Sampras on their best days. I'd like to see more serve-and-vollyers; today's bash-baseline play can get monotonous after a while.

[Episiarch]

It's impossible to get, but if you want to see a fucked up documentary, check out Chicken Hawk.

[Pro Libertate]

In that Urkobold photo, check out the little girl. Is it just me, or does she look like she is about to turn into an It's Alive kid and eat the photographer?

Transponder,

By golly, you're right! Wow, if Palin can give birth to and control Satan's evil spawn, well, maybe she's a better candidate than I thought.

On tennis,

A Bjorn Borg clone using a modern racket could defeat them all.

[NP]

Epi, I know John has already taken you to task on that, so I won't repeat that here. But even McNasty doesn't hold a candle to Pancho Gonzales. If we could clone just one tennis player he'd be my first selection.

[joe]

What do want to bet the handicapped kid jokes are flying on Kos right now.

Commenting rights, John.

If there is a joke about Down Syndrome kids on Daily Kos right now, I won't post for a month. If there is not, you don't post for a month. I haven't looked. This offer is good until 1:03 Eastern Standard Time.

[SugarFree]

Roddick definitely beats Federer on the girlfriend front.

It's cool that Fed likes 'em a little meaty, but "DAAAAMMMMMM" Andy!

[Episiarch]

NP, Gonzales is quite a bit before my time. I was just a little kid with the Mac, but he made me love Evil Tennis.

[I\'m Rick James, Bitch]

I'd really love to taste her.

[SugarFree]

Scroll up, joe. You should really read the thread before making an offer like that.

[Shem]

They're emasculating, too!

Pardon me, as I have no spell checker. Wow, too bad spelling errors invalidate arguments.

I also then murder my sense of humor and tie a cinderblock to my sense of fun before I throw it in the lake.

And your sense of humor or fun has what exactly to do with whether or not how someone looks is a valid point in considering whether they're a good choice for a political position? When Katherine Lopez makes comments about how dreamy Bush looked when he landed on the aircraft carrier, we (rightly) chuckle at the ridiculousness of it, but when people here make essentially the same comment about a female politician, it gets taken seriously. Why do you suppose that is?

[NP]

Pro Libertate,

You're wrong, my friend. (Just so everyone knows I'm not impersonating McCain. God, no.) Sampras could kick Borg's ass on any surface but clay. In case anyone cares here's my GOAT list for tennis (in order, and Open-era): Laver, Sampras, Fed, Borg, and whoever the hell comes next.

[JW]

I had no idea self-control and politeness were so immasculating.

Goddamnit! Now I can't even come here without my wife sticking her nose in my business. Honey, please for the last time, GO OUT!

Seriously, if you came here looking for that exclusively, you are going to go home very disappointed.

Feel free to voice your dissent in as entertaining and condescending manner as possible. joe can give you some pointers.

[Episiarch]

Sampras could kick Borg's ass on any surface but clay

When Sampras was losing, he would just ace your ass until he won. Boring, but unstoppable.

[SugarFree]

I knew posting all those feministing comments would eventually come back to haunt me. Shem is just karma, guys. I sorry to have it blow back on you guys too.

[dhex]

HURR HURR A GURL HURR HURR

[NP]

SugarFree, the only sin Mirka ever committed was to allow Fed to wear that Wimby-white cardigan. I mean, talk about growing up too fast.

Epi, I was barely a toddler when Mac was in his prime. I mention Gonzales 'cause he once lunged into the stand to teach a heckler a lesson. Not even Mac has ever done that.

[JW]

When Katherine Lopez makes comments about how dreamy Bush looked when he landed on the aircraft carrier, we (rightly) chuckle at the ridiculousness of it, but when people here make essentially the same comment about a female politician, it gets taken seriously.

There's only one person here taking that seriously.

[Episiarch]

but when people here make essentially the same comment about a female politician, it gets taken seriously

Are you fucking kidding me, dude? How many jokes are there on this thread about her looks?

[NP]

Epi, let's not forget his running forehand and overhead, but yeah, gotta say that's true. But he ain't no Roddick or Ivo Karlovic. The guy actually had this thing called an all-around game, at least in his earlier years.

[The Angry Optimist]

they got your number on that one, Shem. I'd say the general attitude is that the "looks" aspect is NOT being taken seriously.

[Shem]

Seriously, if you came here looking for that exclusively, you are going to go home very disappointed.

Actually, I've been coming here for quite a while. Though I admit I stopped reading the comment threads for quite a long time. Starting to remember why.

[Shem]

they got your number on that one, Shem. I'd say the general attitude is that the "looks" aspect is NOT being taken seriously.

And yet...the comment keeps being made. By people who betray no hint that they're trying to be ironic, sarcastic, or anything of the sort. Other than His Holiness URKOBOLD, of course.

[NP]

Shem, not sure if you're new or now, but you gotta understand this is an (almost) unregulated board. We're pretty a sick bunch of mostly very hetero males. Be forewarned if you didn't know that already.

[time pedant]

This offer is good until 1:03 Eastern Standard Time.

Hurry up John. You've still got the better part of an hour to accept as 1:03 EST = 2:03 EDT.

[dhex]

Men can no more keep themselves from judging women on their looks than you could just magically will yourself into not having any more periods. It's a bodily function.

so you're basically a slave to your own body?

jesus, that sucks.

[Marcvs]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm required to stick by my earlier statements:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/126659.html#996700

[NP]

new or NOT. This time I blame Jankovic. Where the hell is Safin when you need him?

[Marcvs]

And yet...the comment keeps being made.

Mostly because you won't let it die.

[Pro Libertate]

You are all flaming idiots. Borg at his prime would wipe out Sampras and/or Federer.

Incidentally, uninjured Pete is my vote for the second best after Borg.

Clearly, this country needs a ghola program for tennis as well as for the presidency, so that we can settle this issue once and for all.

[stubby]

I think Palin's damned cute and I don't care if guys think so too. Of course, I'm exactly Palin's age, and I aspire to maintain my MILFness (I've been told I possess MILFness, FWIW) for a few more years. I just wish I had her legs [hence my nickname. I'm not round, just really f'ing short].

Considering how journalists both male and female have been climaxing for months and months over a guy who looks like Howdy Doody, I don't really care if Palin's looks are a factor in all this.

And I'd rather look at just about anyone than Joe Biden (and Al Gore, and and Joe Lieberman, and John Kerry - honest to God, when is a Democratic presidential ticket going to carry at least one face that is not disturbing to look at for more than a few minutes?)

[Shem]

Shem, not sure if you're new or now, but you gotta understand this is an (almost) unregulated board. We're pretty a sick bunch of mostly very hetero males. Be forewarned if you didn't know that already.i>

Not to sound like an old man, but that wasn't always so.

[NP]

Pro Libertate,

You've gotta be kidding me. Even McEnroe would wipe out Borg if they played at their best. Sorry, but me says Pistol Pete all the way down the T. But no argument on the ghola program.

[SugarFree]

More from Kos:

when I see it, and believe me this is pandering ... accept ANY substitute. And, by the way, I know many women who might have made the decision to have the child with Down's syndrome. What's that got to do with qualifying to be vice president except to gain the sympathy vote.

McCain is a noun, a verb, and POW.

Will Palin be a noun, a verb, and AWWWWWWW?

Don't criticize my lack of experience because I'm a mother who cares for my children?

Talk about cynical, and people appear to be buying it. Sheesh.

by AnnaMolly on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 09:53:37 AM PDT

[Kip]

"Or Obama. You never know. Condescension to a woman comes surprisingly readily to most people."

Right you are, Smacky, right you are.

[Pro Libertate]

NP,

You're delusional. Borg has much more foreign policy than McEnroe.

[NP]

Shem, then you must've been here longer than I have. Anyone else care to confirm?

And Jankovic wins after about a thousand deuces. Heh.

[SugarFree]

dhex,

so you're basically a slave to your own body?

Pretty much. The point is to become comfortable with that fact.

Anyway, never had any irrational mood swings, dhex? Really? You and your body are the same thing. Why wouldn't physical changes and effects affect the mind?

[SugarFree]

NP,

Did she have any of the song and dance? She hops around and plays hurt better than a mama bird leading you away from her eggs.

[NP]

Pro Libertate,

In all seriousness, the reason Borg quit was because he didn't wanna (possibly) stay No. 2 while McEnroe was around. And I'm not just speculating here; Borg admitted this much himself. As you may well know there are still quite a few tennis commentators that say McEnroe is the most talented player ever to hold a racquet.

[Pro Libertate]

I hate it when I screw up a joke. Allow me to rephrase:

NP,

You're delusional. Borg has much more foreign policy experience than McEnroe.

[JW]

And yet...the comment keeps being made.

No, when you showed up, the comments pretty much stopped, because, now we had to deal with Mrs. Rev. Lovejoy.

Stay, go, mumble, bitch about the old days, I really don't care, but for the love of god, pull the stick out of your ass.

[NP]

SugarFree, didn't see much movement from her post match. And shock of shocks--she didn't even call for a trainer!

[Pro Libertate]

I saw the two play multiple times. I don't agree that McEnroe was as good as Borg. Borg just wanted to go out on top--he was losing a step (due to energy, desire, whatever) when he left the game. He really was amazing on the court. And I do rank McEnroe quite highly, though I think healthy Sampras was the superior player.

[SugarFree]

Question: Will Federer quit soon so as to go out on top? Will he pull a Borg?

I'm thinking yes.

[smacky]

JW,

The point you seem to be missing is that this *isn't* a boys club. Politics are for *everyone* now, not just people with penises. What Shem has so patiently been trying to explain to you and your knuckle-dragging kind is that you ought to be embarrassed about acting like a 12-year-old boy whenever the subject of women is mentioned, or anything tangentially related to a woman appears on Hit and Run. I would liken you all closest to a bunch of grown women reading Teen Beat magazine and spending all their time commenting on and thinking about Brad Pitt's butt or Christian Slater's abs, or whoever is the celebutante of the day. It's pathetic. Don't be one of those women.

[Kip]

"McCain's pick looks like more of a viva Viagra decision. A person whose most redeemable quality is her looks."

Brotherben,

Are you really that shallow or just a troll-in-training.

[Episiarch]

As you may well know there are still quite a few tennis commentators that say McEnroe is the most talented player ever to hold a racquet

Mac is the best of all time, stylistically. He was using fucking wooden rackets, dudes! Wooden! Have you ever used a wooden racket? There is a galaxy of difference between my O3 and a wooden racket.

Question: Will Federer quit soon so as to go out on top? Will he pull a Borg?

Yes. Nadal is too ascendant for him to remain numero uno.

[00====D]

"The point you seem to be missing is that this *isn't* a boys club. Politics are for *everyone* now, not just people with penises."

Damn! When'd that happen?

[advantage McEnroe]

As you may well know there are still quite a few tennis commentators that say McEnroe is the most talented player ever to hold a racquet.

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!

[dhex]

Anyway, never had any irrational mood swings, dhex? Really? You and your body are the same thing. Why wouldn't physical changes and effects affect the mind?

because without some kind of filter you'd be dead in hours, if not days. no one is actually a slave to their every hedonic bodily whim.

it's not whether you actually thought something or not, it's about what you do with those urges. yes part of your brain lights up as HURR HURR A GURL HURR HURR; in public, do you catcall? do you whistle every time an attractive woman passes? if so, does the metric change if she's with a man, especially if he's larger and stronger than you are?

the last bit is interesting, as i found myself having to explain more or less this exact phenomenon to the construction crew up my block, when one of the workers went from saying "hey pretty lady" to my wife as she passed every day to "i want you to have my baby." with the imposition of consequence for this "natural" process of being a douchenozzle, the situation changed for some reason. it helps that i am a pituitary freak, to be sure, and the implicit threat of violence is indeed also a "natural" reaction, especially in evolutionary psych reasoning.

obviously the "natural" pull isn't nearly as strong as people put forth.

i see the bullshit in the above thread as yet another manifestation of this. a few steps past that and you start getting into greater impositions of the will of one upon another: sexual assault and other forms of violence. they are not the same, but they're part of the same buffet of objectification. an inability to empathize or humanize; an inability to control one's self. (a sad thing for anyone who proclaims to believe in self-governance.)

it's also why i don't crap completely on feministing, because on one level they're right. they're insane in part because the culture is often deeply hostile to women, both implicitly and explicitly.

a lot of men don't see women as people, but as things, be it part of a homosocial bonding routine or as a kind of petty tyranny towards strangers because one's personal desire takes precedence over the routine of manners and social dignity.

[brotherben]

Kip,

I am really that shallow.

[Pro Libertate]

Episiarch,

As was Borg. People unfamiliar with the old rackets have no conception of the difference. I'm old enough to have played with a wooden racket and young enough to play with a modern racket made of massless neutrinos (or nearly massless). Besides the weight difference and the superior stringing, there's also the size of the heads--much bigger now.

Head! Down!

[NP]

Pro Libertate,

I'll fess up and say I haven't seen the two play as much, but I gotta say McEnroe at his best would've been unbeatable by anyone but just a handful in history. I mean, just think McEnroe in his 1984 form. I'm not just taking about his win-loss percentage (82-3), we all know about that. But just look at the margins by which he thrashed his opponents, who are legends in their own right: 6-1, 6-1, 6-2 in Wimby against Connors, and 6-3, 6-4, 6-1 at the USO against Lendl.

Oh, but what about Borg in his 1978 form, you say? The one who drubbed Vilas 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 in Roland Garros and Connors 6-2, 6-2, 6-3 in SW19? Yeah, I'll give you that. Relax, I do think Borg and McEnroe are pretty much neck and neck. I just think the American was better by a hair. Make of that what you will.

[Marcvs]

smacky,

My comment is what started Shem off:

A strongly pro-life VP candidate with five kids (one of which has Down's Syndrome) that beat the incumbent Republican governor in the primary and a former Democratic governor in the general election? Oh, plus she hunts and fishes and is a lifetime member of the NRA? AND she's attractive?

Yeah, JUST like Teen Beat. You and Shem can go take your sanctimonious comments elsewhere.

[Shem]

Don't flatter yourself Marcvs. You were just the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Kip]

"Nope. Men can no more keep themselves from judging women on their looks than you could just magically will yourself into not having any more periods. It's a bodily function."

That is incorrect. Many women take the pill every day of the month (e.g., those who suffer from Endometriosis). They have no period.

[Marcvs]

Yeah, because I mentioned that she was attractive and you JUST COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.

Whatever.

[NP]

SugarFree, I doubt that. Just as much as I doubt Henin will eventually come back. Just my gut feeling talkin'.

advantage McEnroe, I am serious. Some still say no one ever had a better touch.

[smacky]

Marcvs,

I wasn't talking about you. I didn't look at the comments on this thread all that closely. I was just talking about the emergent pattern on most other Hit and Run threads.

And for the record I wouldn't call objecting to sexist remarks "sanctimonious". Would you say the same thing about minorities if they took exception to racist remarks? I don't think so. Or at least I hope not.

[Pro Libertate]

NP,

In the end, all we can do is lump them into categories. Borg and McEnroe are indeed in the very top tier. I'd also argue that men's tennis is not what it once was in some respects, though that doesn't take away from the guys at the top, necessarily.

About the sex thing. Once the erections of some of the males around here have dissipated, I imagine that more sangfroid commentary will occur. I am immune, because my wife is hotter than any mere governor. But I recall how this works--initial excitement followed by calm reasoning. And the realization that this chick is a total psycho! No, wait, I'm channeling Episiarch. To whom I now pass the baton.

[Episiarch]

smacky, do you really think the vast majority of us are at all serious? That these jokes are actually sexist and not a meta-joke involving stereotypical sexist remarks?

[JW]

The point you seem to be missing is that this *isn't* a boys club. Politics are for *everyone* now, not just people with penises.

Where did I miss that point? I merely pointed out that this type of silly banter here is normal. Feel free to ignore it. Or condemn it. Either is cool with me. But if you want to put on the holier-than-thou forum persona, you go right ahead and have fun with that.

What Shem has so patiently been trying to explain to you and your knuckle-dragging kind is that you ought to be embarrassed about acting like a 12-year-old boy whenever the subject of women is mentioned, or anything tangentially related to a woman appears on Hit and Run.

What we have patiently been trying to explain to Shem is that this is all in good fun. I seriously doubt that anyone here means any shot that was made at Palin's expense. If you can't deal with the comments made, I suggest that it's your problem.

Don't be one of those women.

A statement I can agree with. Heal thyselves.

I will note for clarity here that I made not one of the comments in question. I still enjoyed them nonetheless.

[Marcvs]

smacky, fair enough, but my point was not that remarking about sexism is sanctimonious, but that remarking about non-existent sexism is sanctimonious. Also the schoolmarmish tone of a certain person's posts as well.

[Kip]

"The Angry Optimist | August 29, 2008, 12:38pm | #

Do you know what a Chickenhawk is or not?

An older gay man who goes after twinks?

*Sigh* I guess 9/11 really did change everything."

This thread has a winner, folks!!!

[dhex]

smacky, do you really think the vast majority of us are at all serious? That these jokes are actually sexist and not a meta-joke involving stereotypical sexist remarks?

i think the vast majority are, yes.

HURR HURR A GURL HURR HURR is the default response in many a post about women, by women, including women, star trek (it had a woman or two), etc. i did think it was a joke at first, years back; now i know it's more or less the factory setting.

it's not all joking, anymore than the team red trolls are all joking.

[Episiarch]

HURR HURR A GURL HURR HURR

Lighten. The fuck. Up. Dude. Srsly.

[NP]

Pro Libertate,

Yeah, it's really impossible to compare players from different eras. I mean, we're just talking about the Open-era players right now. When you add in the potential GOATs of the previous generations--Tilden, Vines, Budge, Kramer, Gonzales, Hoad, etc.--many of whom we never got to see play, then the debate becomes even more discombobulated.

Just so you know I do believe Borg is the best of his era. I just think McEnroe on his best day would beat Borg on his best day on any surface other than clay. And yeah, you're free to disagree.

[Kip]

"The GOP being what it is, I'm sure that her looks played a part in her selection. If she had been selected only for her looks and not her credentials and character, that would be discouraging indeed. However, that doesn't appear to be the case. Her looks appear to be only icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned."

Smacky,

Saw a piture of you on H&R some years back and based on that, and the comments of the posts about it, you are considered prettier than most. So Im asking this as the brother of a women with an undergrad in Womens Studies: has being pretty been a plus or a minus in your efforts to succeed in life?

[Episiarch]

Mac's mad tennis skillz are inversely proportional to his talk show hosting skillz. He is, therefore, a better tennis player than Jesus.

[SugarFree]

dhex,

No, I don't catcall or whistle. But reason is not a construction site and you and Shem aren't women innocently walking by.

Marcvs is correct. Just look at the comment he made that set Shem off on her tirade. Mentioning that she's attractive? Jesus fuck, that's just like beating and raping a woman. Any other false equivalencies you'd like to pedal?

Shem started this shit by calling noting a woman to be attractive "misogyny." Is that what misogyny is? The threshold's pretty fucking low. Shem slings an insult that's also patently absurd, and we are suppose to go "Yes, ma'am, we'll be good." Shem might be new, but you sure aren't. Would we put up with it from a man? Do we put up with it from anyone on any subject?

Are a lot of comments on here sexist? Of course they are. YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T COME HERE. The last thing we need is a fucking feminist troll trying to rap our knuckles with rulers.

[Kip]

"She just pronounced nuclear new-kew-ler. Doh!" The Kennedy's say Havaner Cuber. It's called American Regional Dialect. Get over it.

[Seitz]

Sugarfree,

You found one, which was immediately called out as repulsive. It's not surprising to find one idiotic comment. And it got the response I suggested.

The second one you posted is no more making fun of her child as pointing out that McCain responds to every question with POW is "making fun" of him being a POW.

It wasn't very hard. You're not one of those people who think liberals shit rainbows, are you?

No, but I also don't think that one comment at a site with millions of visitors necessarily damns the whole party. I don't think you think that either. John said the jokes would be flying. So far I've seen exactly one example. It wasn't really flying. It was just kinda sitting there. By itself.

[Cochon]

Politics are for *everyone* now, not just people with penises.

Sadly true. Biggest mistake men ever made was letting women vote. Second biggest: letting them drive.

[dhex]

Lighten. The fuck. Up. Dude. Srsly.

no. sorry.

that attitude isn't acceptable in the real world, at least not around me; it contributes to an environment where i have to worry about the safety and sanity of the women in my life because some men cannot control themselves, and i worry how far that lack of control goes. it is vulgar, not in the fun, genesis p-orridge sense but in the "libertarian as fat sci fi nerd" sense.

you know, like in EVERY FUCKING KERRY HOWLEY POST SHE EVER FUCKING MADE.

[Shem]

Also the schoolmarmish tone of a certain person's posts as well.

Well, when a person or group's skull seems to be especially opaque to clue-waves, subtlety sometimes needs to be abandoned. I'm sorry I upset your delicate sensibilites.

[smacky]

Are a lot of comments on here sex^rac^ist? Of course they are. YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T COME HERE. The last thing we need is a fucking feminist troll trying to rap our knuckles with rulers.

What I think is odd is that women are expected to put up with this kind of spitefulness, whereas if these were comments made about race, any number of these bigots would have been banned from Hit and Run faster than a crude comment being posted on a Kerry Howley thread.

I mean are people satisfied with this becoming a place that is synonymous with sexism? I would think that might be an undesirable thing, not a feature. Is Hit and Run the LewRockwell.com of sexism?

[dhex]

Jesus fuck, that's just like beating and raping a woman.

see above:

"they are not the same, but they're part of the same buffet of objectification. an inability to empathize or humanize; an inability to control one's self. (a sad thing for anyone who proclaims to believe in self-governance.)"

[SugarFree]

Seitz,

I didn't do it to defend John, but to say that someone wouldn't do it was easy to shoot down. And that was within 15 minutes of the announcement. Conservatives are no fucking better, what with the Obama-monkey jokes, but to deny the venal in modern politics is deluded.

The suggestions that she should be taking care of her son would have been met with howls of protest from the left/feminist blogosphere, but become she's THE ENEMY (as one charming Koser put it), then it's far game.

No one smells like roses in this.

[Episiarch]

that attitude isn't acceptable in the real world, at least not around me

Too fucking bad, tuff gai.

it contributes to an environment where i have to worry about the safety and sanity of the women in my life because some men cannot control themselves, and i worry how far that lack of control goes

This is so ridiculously hyperbolic that I can't believe you have the balls to assert it in multiple posts.

Get off your fucking high horse. You clearly get off on being above us knuckledragging sexist scum. Except for the fact that can't even get the meta-humor in it, that is. You might want to reconsider your superiority complex, seeing as it's completely delusional.

[Shem]

Shem might be new

Again, not new. Been around since 2003. Google backs me up on that, if you don't believe me.

Shem started this shit by calling noting a woman to be attractive "misogyny."

No, I would call putting forward a woman's attractiveness as a mark of her fitness to hold office misogyny. Which wasn't done in that specific comment, but has been done, repeatedly, by several others. How else is one to take "And she's attractive to boot!" It's nonsense when people say it about Obama, why isn't it nonsense now?

[SugarFree]

What I think is odd is that women are expected to put up with this kind of spitefulness, whereas if these were comments made about race, any number of these bigots would have been banned from Hit and Run faster than a crude comment being posted on a Kerry Howley thread.

Oh, I'm sorry... was the Oppression Olympics today? I'll have to run home and get my track spikes.

[Marcvs]

I have delicate sensibilities? I'm sorry, I'm not the one who went off because someone said that Sarah Palin is attractive.

BTW, attractiveness has played a role in every election since 1960. Grow the fuck up.

[NP]

Epi, was Mac's talk show really that bad? Never got to see it, but given his glibness as a commentator (I mean that nicely) I find it hard to believe he totally sucked.

[smacky]

I have to say, for Reason being such a stand-up group of Cosmotarians, this place sure seems to be a welcoming haven for misogynist asshats. Not very cosmopolitan if you ask me.

[Episiarch]

NP, it was spectacularly bad. Boring beyond belief. Magic Johnson bad.

[SugarFree]

And let's step back from the Womyn's Studies precipice for a moment...

Of course Palin's looks factor into this. McCain had more qualified women to choose from, Alaska is a solid red state, and her looks are also bound up in her age.

Palin's attractiveness will be an issue in this election. Just go read the KOS thread if you don't believe me.

[The Angry Optimist]

smacky, don't you think there's a difference between sexist comments and misogynistic ones?

I already said elsewhere I'm staying out of this fray, but bigotry:racism :: sexism:misogyny.

[JW]

it contributes to an environment where i have to worry about the safety and sanity of the women in my life because some men cannot control themselves, and i worry how far that lack of control goes.

Then I would suggest to you of actually getting to know some men in real life, so that you can possibly accept the concept that only a very small fraction of men are rapists and murderers, rather than parrot the brainless line that all men are suspects. Shocker! Most of us are harmless and gasp! decent people.

Then, perhaps, you could engage on some self control over blurting out every time a non-deferential comment is made about women of how you're afraid of every Y chromosome out there and what some men are capable of doing. You sound like the bigot afraid of the black guy walking down the sidewalk.

[SugarFree]

It's nonsense when people say it about Obama, why isn't it nonsense now?

Find me one woman who called Obama attractive and was called a misandrist as a result. Just one and I'll eat a bell hooks book.

[Biden]

". How else is one to take "And she's attractive to boot!" It's nonsense when people say it about Obama, why isn't it nonsense now?"

My wife is Gorgeous! And she has a Ph.D.

[Episiarch]

I have to say, for Reason being such a stand-up group of Cosmotarians, this place sure seems to be a welcoming haven for misogynist asshats. Not very cosmopolitan if you ask me.

I have to say, for reason being such a stand-up group of Cosmotarians, this place sure seems to be a welcoming haven for humorless prigs. Not very fun if you ask me.

[smacky]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, Episarch, but you haven't been as funny as of late as you seem to think you are. On a scale of comparison, your jokes about female anatomy and sex are probably at the level of humor of Porky's Part Three. (I haven't even seen any of the Porky's movies, but estimating the laffability of a seventies sex comedy coupled with the fact that it is a sequel, I am willing to bet that Porky's part three sucks.)

[Cochon]

Saw a piture of you on H&R some years back and based on that, and the comments of the posts about it, you are considered prettier than most.

"Prettier than most"? Come on, don't be a wuss. Just say it: smacky is Hotel Alpha Whiskey Tango!

[NP]

Epi, anything more boring than a June Cleaver-friendly informercial is pretty bad in my book. Gotcha. Really.

[Marcvs]

I am willing to bet that Porky's part three sucks.

That would be Porky's Revenge. And yes, it did (as did the rest).

[SugarFree]

(I haven't even seen any of the Porky's movies, but estimating the laffability of a seventies sex comedy coupled with the fact that it is a sequel, I am willing to bet that Porky's part three sucks.)

Porky's Revenge, the third installment of the Porky's trilogy, came out in 1985. The original Porky's came out in 1983.

Make fun of Epi all you want, but leave Porky's out of it.

[Episiarch]

but you haven't been as funny as of late as you seem to think you are

Wow, having my humor critiqued by someone lacking a sense of one. Biting criticism.

your jokes about female anatomy and sex are probably at the level of humor of Porky's Part Three

I do jokes about female anatomy? The only one I know of is on this thread and is a direct quote from South Park. See: meta-humor by referencing.

[smacky]

You're slipping, Epi. Maybe you and Nutrasweet need to renew your vows and go on a cruise together or something. Anything to freshen up your routine.

[SugarFree]

So sexism is verboten, but homophobic insults are A-OK.

Noted.

[dhex]

Get off your fucking high horse. You clearly get off on being above us knuckledragging sexist scum. Except for the fact that can't even get the meta-humor in it, that is. You might want to reconsider your superiority complex, seeing as it's completely delusional.

it's not delusional.

i fully admit that having to actually interact with this attitude in the real world may have changed my perspective to a bit more serious than people would care for; but having watched the usual "hey baby baby" routine hundreds of times at this point, coupled with having to hear my wife's stories of getting the verbal version of many of the comments for many, many hit and run posts that are sometimes only peripherally involved with women...yeah, i begin to think of it as a serious character flaw.

it is a problem that many, many men have, and that, like casual racism, should be objected to.

i speak from the heart; if this injures some of the commentariat, or wounds their self-esteem, so be it. if objecting to HURR HURR A GURL makes me a sanctimonious feminist troll, so be it, but i strenuously object. if that's me riding my high horse, then so be that, too. i don't think right and wrong are high-horse issues, personally, but i am in the minority in many things in life.

i don't know if you're married or dating or single or whatever, but what would you do if a stranger told your sister, or wife, or mother, or female friend that he wanted to impregnate her? would you shrug and say "oh well, it's all in good fun?" or that he's just joking? would it be acceptable even if he was joking? if not, why not?

because in that scenario we all recognize that treating women as objects of sexual pleasure is wrong. or at the very least, severely rude. is it the attitude that's wrong, or just being in physical proximity that makes it wrong?

let me give you another example that didn't involve someone i directly cared about: it's about midnight on a friday in october of last year, heading back in from my cma class out in queens, and it's just me and a quiet, tired woman in nurse's scrubs in the car.

around 21st/ely, a slightly drunk man gets on the train. he immediately begins chatting up, or attempting to, the woman in the seat; "hey, you're pretty. you've got nice hair." and so on and so forth.

unsolicited and ignored, his lust turns to rage about 60 seconds later. he begins screaming about how no one would "want her ugly old pussy anyway" and how much of a man he was.

he only stopped when i interjected myself between them, because i am a frightening person.

his final response before getting off the train, btw, was "she's just some bitch."

like she was a toy to be played with.

[smacky]

Homophobic insults? You two have alluded repeatedly to your homoerotic friendship. I wasn't attempting to insult either of you, nor am I homophobic. I was just making reference to all of your previous jokes.

Jeez...and I'm the one accused of not having a sense of humor.

[J]

Speaking of Episiarch and female anatomy:

Epi, I have a few ideas how to translate your name (and I think its from a book you mentioned in the past), but Episi(sometimes o) refers to a part of said anatomy.

[JW]

Find me one woman who called Obama attractive and was called a misandrist as a result. Just one and I'll eat a bell hooks book.

SF, don't you know yet? It's OK for a woman to comment on a man's looks, but it's simply out-of-the-question for a man to have similarly unclean thoughts. It's just not allowed any longer. Sex and the City should have cleared that up for you: women are smart and droll when they talk about sex. Men are just pigs.

That's why Bill Clinton could be asked "boxers or briefs?" and we all either giggled or rolled our eyes, but if someone asks Palin "grannies or bikini?", well, start sharpening the pitch forks and soaking the torches in oil. (Here's hoping Palin looks the questioner straight in the eye and answers, "Commando!")

"Get him, girls!"

[SugarFree]

i don't know if you're married or dating or single or whatever, but what would you do if a stranger told your sister, or wife, or mother, or female friend that he wanted to impregnate her?

My wife would tear his balls off. Instead of, you know, waiting for a white knight feminist man to come to her rescue. Or complaining about it on-line to men who had no part in the incident at all.

[SugarFree]

Jeez...and I'm the one accused of not having a sense of humor.

Yeah, a bit insulting when you get called something you're not or have a remark taken out of context as evidence of bigotry, isn't it?

But them I'm just a "misogynist asshat," right?

[Episiarch]

i don't know if you're married or dating or single or whatever, but what would you do if a stranger told your sister, or wife, or mother, or female friend that he wanted to impregnate her?

I'd let her handle it. My mother, sister, and girlfriends are not people who need me to take care of it for them and would be offended if I did.

[Marcvs]

dhex, comparing the comments on this blog to that creep on the train is not just outrageous, it's insulting. As someone with two sisters and a girlfriend, I have seen nothing posted here that even remotely borders on what you are talking about.

[Episiarch]

it's about midnight on a friday in october of last year, heading back in from my cma class out in queens

You live in the boroughs. That's yer problem right there.

[SugarFree]

Technically, he did say he was "coming back" from Queens.

[Episiarch]

Jeez...and I'm the one accused of not having a sense of humor.

NutraSweet nailed you hard core for double standard and this is your response? Woman up and just admit it.

[The Angry Optimist]

I'm still patiently waiting for the description of how sexism = misogyny.

Also, does anybody on either side of this debate believe that the comments made here are legitimate expressions of female hatred?

Or is this an exercise in revealed preferences and psychologizing?

I also see merit in the point above about chuckling over Bill's underwear and going apeshit over Sarah's.

[dhex]

i'm sorry that you guys feel like you're being victimized here, even if i don't quite understand why.

feminists have never done anything to effect your life, beyond words written on a blog, right? have you had roving gangs of womens' studies majors gang up on you in public? have they threatened you with assault or other physical harms?

probably not, right?

i'm not complaining to you guys, btw. i'm explaining why i feel it necessary to interject as i do, and why i think it's important on a social level, though i don't know you from shinola.

just as i have a great deal of pride in watching how pretty much everyone has been socialized to treat LoneWacko like the FoolishClown he is, it's not because i don't like lonewacko - i don't think i would, but again, no idea who or what he is - but because the attitude itself is toxic.

[Episiarch]

Your hero complex is staggering, dhex. Do you have a cape and spandex tights to go with it?

[dhex]

dhex, comparing the comments on this blog to that creep on the train is not just outrageous, it's insulting. As someone with two sisters and a girlfriend, I have seen nothing posted here that even remotely borders on what you are talking about.

again, and for the last time, i will reference my original qualification:

"they are not the same, but they're part of the same buffet of objectification. an inability to empathize or humanize; an inability to control one's self. (a sad thing for anyone who proclaims to believe in self-governance.)"

they are not the same thing, but i think they come from the same wellspring.

if it makes you feel better ideologically, that blog about forcibly sodomizing ann coulter - and all the liberal jokes about her having an adam's apple - are the same kind of thing.

[Marcvs]

Women are a lot tougher than the impression given in this thread. Anyway, I'm done with this topic.

[The Angry Optimist]

have you had roving gangs of womens' studies majors gang up on you in public? have they threatened you with assault or other physical harms?

In all fairness these kinds of unfortunate events don't happen to most women.

[dhex]

hero complex?

maybe i do. i don't think it's unreasonable to help people. i'm rather retrograde in my notions of gender roles, so that's entirely possible.

[SugarFree]

i'm sorry that you guys feel like you're being victimized here, even if i don't quite understand why.

I don't feel victimized, I feel nagged. I don't react well to nagging, obviously.

Policing other people's thoughts, feelings, reactions, attitudes and opinions has zero compatibility with libertarianism. I don't have a problem with women, I have a problem with being told what to do.

[dhex]

In all fairness these kinds of unfortunate events don't happen to most women.

i used to think that way.

http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/2008/08/sometimes-stories-we-get-at.html

[NP]

What the hell is the matter with you, folks? Federer is playing in Ashe and this is what you consider more important and interesting? So much for the GOAT debate.

[SugarFree]

NP,

I'm stuck at work, toiling in the misogyny mines, apparently.

[Bolo Thai]

Hey, did you guys hear? McCain chose Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his VP candidate. Pretty groovy!

[SIV]

I am willing to bet that Porky's part three sucks.

One of the best soundtrack albums ever. Porky's Revenge features mostly Dave Edmunds,with tracks by Jeff Beck, Clarence Clemons, George Harrison,Carl Perkins,Willie Nelson and the Crawling King Snakes featuring Robert Plant,Dave Edmunds,Phil Collins. I believe most or all of the record was recorded just for the soundtrack. I don't think there was ever a CD issue.

[dhex]

I don't feel victimized, I feel nagged. I don't react well to nagging, obviously.

Policing other people's thoughts, feelings, reactions, attitudes and opinions has zero compatibility with libertarianism. I don't have a problem with women, I have a problem with being told what to do.

so if you're hanging out with someone, and they say something you think is off base - or even just factually incorrect - you never say anything?

this blog actually posts quite a bit about people who have - i think - deeply wrong positions on a number of political and moral issues. the war on drugs, for example - reason rightfully mocks, critiques and even outright lays into ondcp types, law und order folk defending no knock raids under any circumstances, etc.

anyway, i am out like shout for this glorious holiday weekend. may you all shortly do the same.

[The Angry Optimist]

A brief sexism test:

1. Was this anthrophobia at work? Misandry? or just humor?

[Episiarch]

i'm rather retrograde in my notions of gender roles

And we're the sexist pigs? "I must protect the little wimmenz" is pretty seriously sexist, Clark Kent.

[SugarFree]

SIV,

Amazon has it.

[NP]

SugarFree, maybe I'm a misogynist me-self 'cause I don't find women's matches as interesting as men's.

[JW]

but i think they come from the same wellspring.

Have you ever considered the option that you might just be full of shit and grasping at straws for validation?

And good for you for standing up for that woman; I would have likely done the same. That doesn't mean jack for your divorced-from-reality views about men though.

[SugarFree]

so if you're hanging out with someone, and they say something you think is off base - or even just factually incorrect - you never say anything?

Of course I do. But I don't call them bigots/misogynists/racists/etc when they try to retort. Shem wasn't correcting something factually incorrect, she was trying to tell someone that their opinion about something innocuous is hate. And you are comparing us to train rapists.

[SIV]

feminists have never done anything to effect your life, beyond words written on a blog, right?

That and the whole "right to vote" thing which totally fucked up the country and did more to kill the libertarian spirit of America than anything else I can think of. Womens sufferage came hand-in-hand with Prohibition. It is why " the right to affordable child care" is a critical National political issue while the size and scope of government is a "fringe" issue. I firmly support women's right to self determination and equality of oportunity.
Their collective exercise of voting is as good an argument against Democracy as any.

[smacky]

Policing other people's thoughts, feelings, reactions, attitudes and opinions has zero compatibility with libertarianism. I don't have a problem with women, I have a problem with being told what to do.

SugarFree,

Ok, so then you would object to people decrying someone who came onto Hit and Run and started posting racist tripe? Because no one should make an attempt to correct that way of thinking, or at least cease the comments? See also dhex's post at 3:20pm.

Epi,

I'm not admitting anything I'm not guilty of. I read the comments here, and you've been making reference to your "relationship" for many months now. I was referencing that. It was not a homophobic jab of any sort.

And I think I will follow dhex's suit and bow out of the thread.

[The Angry Optimist]

Maybe you and Nutrasweet need to renew your vows and go on a cruise together or something. Anything to freshen up your routine.

Hm, reference to a gay cruise? Sounds at least like stereotyping to me.

[prolefeed]

This makes a lot of sense from a purely political analysis. Palin is from a state that is looking to be a swing state this election -- only 3 EV, but that's more than the zero additional EV Obama gets from picking a candidate from a solid, can't-lose Blue state. She will help pick off Hillary supporters who play at identity politics and just want a woman in the White House, regardless of ideology. She's young and attractive, and there really are lots of voters who care about stupid shit like that (see Obama, Barack).

She obviously is going to destroy any credibility of Republican attempts to paint Obama as too young and inexperienced and unqualified.

None of this, of course, means Palin would necessarily make a good president if it comes to that, which SHOULD be the sole criteria if politics attracted people of integrity (hint: it doesn't).

But, unless Palin's got some major weaknesses I haven't heard about, she appears to be one of the savvier choices from a purely political angle that McCain could have gone with, Bobby Jindal being another.

[SugarFree]

NP,

I love women's matches. There is much more variation to their game. And since few of them have a complete game, watching them compensate leads to some of the best tennis. Look at Dementieva. She was winning matches in-spite of 88 MPH serves and double-digit double faults.

The only thing I really hate about the women's matches is that they have a tendency to not move the camera's around during the match. They usually plant three stationary cameras and flip between them. And the main bird's eye camera is often really far away. If Sharapova is two inches tall on my 50' inch TV, you need to tighten up the fucking shot, guys.

[Episiarch]

I'm not admitting anything I'm not guilty of

Wow, that's fucking exactly what NutraSweet and I are doing. So glad you're capable of seeing it for yourself but not for us.

People who can't laugh at themselves, like you and dhex, really need to grow up and stop taking yourselves so fucking seriously. Really.

[James Ard]

McCain may be 72 but I think Obama pissed his pants this morning. My wife had no interest in McCain until he nominated a chick with a special needs child. Also the hypocrit msm will try to make something of Palin getting her sister's hubby fired, yet never mention Hillary's role in getting Billy Dale indighted. As I said earlier today, Hillary gals love ball busting by a strong woman.

[SugarFree]

smacky,

Of course I love making fun of racists. Making fun of them, not try to reform them.

And I reject the Oppression Olympics of casual, even joking, sexism as being the equivilent of racism. When an actual, honest-to-goodness misogynist, someone who feels utter contempt and hatred for women ever shows up, I'll mock the fuck out of them too.

I'm not admitting anything I'm not guilty of

Sorry, but that has to be the most clueless comment of the week. Kudos.

[NP]

SugarFree,

So you know I said that with a big tongue in my cheek. Me like women's matches me-self.

And I actually like the cameras' positions fine as they are. Unless you're talking about the ones in, say, Ashe Stadium, but in that case it's the stadium that's at fault. I really don't know what they were thinking when they decided to construct a tennis stadium that high. Well, the USTA does a lot of stupid things, and it certainly wasn't the last.

[Pro Libertate]

There's probably plenty of negatives to the Palin selection, but taking away the ability of the GOP to criticize Obama's lack of experience isn't one of them. She's the vice-presidential candidate, with comparable (and, in some ways, superior) experience to the Democrat's presidential nominee.

Compare her to Biden, if you like, but the head-to-head comparison is a better play. Emphasizing the experience issue is exactly what the McCain campaign expects and is counting on.

[voxpo]

Kip | August 29, 2008, 2:15pm | #
"She just pronounced nuclear new-kew-ler. Doh!" The Kennedy's say Havaner Cuber. It's called American Regional Dialect. Get over it.

Really? What region says new-kew-ler?

[smacky]

And I reject the Oppression Olympics of casual, even joking, sexism as being the equivilent of racism.

Why? Sexism and racism are the same thing: collectivist regard of a group based on the physical attributes that they were born with. They are not different when it comes down to it.

When an actual, honest-to-goodness misogynist, someone who feels utter contempt and hatred for women ever shows up, I'll mock the fuck out of them too.

What I think you don't understand is that sexism is more insidious and dispersed than that. It is a dark and subtle undercurrent, not something that walks in wearing an "I disregard women" t-shirt.

"Joking sexism" only exists in the same way that "joking racism" does, if it does. And I'm not sure it does.

[Urkobold?]

SMACKY MINION,

ARE YOU NAKED AS YOU TYPE THOSE WORDS?

[Episiarch]

And Urkobold provides a crystal clear, perfect example of "joking sexism", right on cue. Get it now, smacky?

We have lots of "joking homophobia" and no one complains. We have lots of "joking racism" when mocking LoneDoofus.

Yet the "joking sexism" is too much? Again, lighten the fuck up and grow thicker skin. And most of all, don't attack people who are totally not sexist at all but do enjoy making all kinds of offensive jokes.

[SugarFree]

I understand sexism perfectly. I just don't think it's a conspiracy. And I don't think feminism's solutions to it have anything to do with promoting freedom. Women don't seem to want to be treated as equals. Men insult men constantly and in fashions that would be hair-raising to most women if they actually heard it. Women don't want to be coddled, either. It's infantilizing, and I agree that would be bad.

So what women seem to be suggesting is that they be the sole arbiters of men's behavior and attitudes.

Fuck that. You want to be a mom, go squeeze one out.

I'm going home, too.

And Shem, if you have any luck in that search, shoot me an email. I thinking Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center braised with parsnips and shallots.

[JW]

"Joking sexism" only exists in the same way that "joking racism" does, if it does. And I'm not sure it does.

See, at al: Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, Redd Foxx, etc, etc.

And I think that every one of them is hysterical when they make fun of whitey. I don't feel the need to stand there with my hands-on-hips and correct their intentional exaggerations.

Which, may be a telling difference between men and women.

[JW]

I'm going home, too.

Damnit. They're not letting us out early for the holiday. Oh well.

[Urkobold?]

EPISIARCH, YOU FOOL, THE URKOBOLD DOES NO SUCH THING. HE SIMPLY WANTS TO KNOW IF HIS FAVORITE FEMALE EMPLOYEE IS ENJOYING CASUAL FRIDAY PER THE URKOBOLD'S STATED POLICY. WRITTEN, THE URKOBOLD MIGHT ADD, BY MINIONETTE SMACKY.

[smacky]

Men insult men constantly and in fashions that would be hair-raising to most women if they actually heard it.

Right. And women insult women in fashions that would scandalize most men. That's not the same thing, because it's one member of a group insulting another member of the same group. Kind of like how you can insult your own family, or people that you know personally, but other people who don't know your family or friends can't.

Women aren't attempting to control men's behavior. Some of us here -- women and men, too -- are asking others here not to be such dicks and have a little common courtesy. That's all. I don't insult some random politician's manhood just because I disagree with his policies, and it should work both ways.

You have a persecution complex, SugarFree. You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[smacky]

Urkobold,

It's Biz Cas Fri. What do you think? 😉

[The Angry Optimist]

That's not the same thing, because it's one member of a group insulting another member of the same group. Kind of like how you can insult your own family, or people that you know personally, but other people who don't know your family or friends can't.

See kids? 50% of the planet has enough in common and insular enough that the other 50% of the planet cannot say "boo" about their habits.

yeah, I can't figure it out either. Especially since women are just as catty and brutal about how men look as is true of the inverse, if not more so.

Just today I heard some ladies giggling that McCain looks like a "creepy old perv". Oh yeah, and how Obama is all sexy and shit.

[Urkobold?]

MINIONETTE SMACKY,

THE URKOBOLD IS PLEASED BY YOU. HAVE A COOKIE, AND GO BEFORE YOUR WEBCAM AND ENGAGE IN LESBIAN SEX WITH YOUNG LINGUIST.

THE URKOBOLD FINDS SATISFACTION IN HIS WORK. . .[INCLINES HEAD TO LISTEN TO HIS GENERAL COUNSEL'S WHISPERED COMMENTS]. . .AND IS IN FULL COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERAL LAWS AGAINST SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION. BE SURE TO BEND OVER IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA TO PICK UP THE PAPERS THAT THE URKOBOLD DROPPED IN YOUR OFFICE.

[smacky]

Especially since women are just as catty and brutal about how men look as is true of the inverse, if not more so.

Turnabout, fair play, etc. Any comments I have made to that effect have been mindful of this. Yeah, it's petty and superficial, but then again I didn't start the conversation about misogyny on this here thread. I just joined the pile-on because it's Friday and I needed a hobby for a minute.

Have a nice holiday weekend, everyone.

[Episiarch]

You collectivism is unappealing, smacky. I'll insult whomever I damn well please.

[The Angry Optimist]

meh, I'm in the fray to distract me from the very boring homework on "Basics of Legal Research".

Yech.

[GG]

Uh oh. Craig Ferguson (::swoon::) is just begging for an outraged feminist to smack him down over his "misogynistic" remarks about Sarah Barracuda!

[miche]

As a woman who revels in my GILF status, I'd like to point out that indeed Sarah Palin is quite attractive and there's nothing wrong with anybody saying so. I'll also go on record right now and say that when I heard about McCain picking her for VP, I actually reconsidered abstaining from that vote.

At this time I think I'm sticking with my plan to vote LP candidates in state and local races (TX) and nothing in the prez race but McCain could have done much, much worse than Palin. (The worst part is the glee that is likely on Dondero's face right now. I hate the thought of him happy.)

[Gina]

Obama supporters are always trying to give the false impression that Obama has soooo many people who want him ? but, in reality, in both the primaries, and in this general election, Obama cannot get more than half of the voters. Actually, Palin has more experience and qualifications than Obama. Obama was a community organizer, with no executive experience, who has spent most of his short term as a senator, running for President. Palin, a mayor, and a governor, has already stood up to special interests and big oil companies, while Obama has not shown any kahonies yet, except for when he threw his friend, advisor and mentor of 20 years, under the bus. If Palin could get 90% of the women's vote, because she is a woman ... just like Obama gets 90% of the black vote, because he is black ... it would be good for our country.

[Shem]

Completely done, except to point out that I'm a he, SF.

[Gun owners perspective]

The solution is now on the problem's ticket. Interesting. LOL

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[Ways To Get Revenge]

Palin will have her revenge, though Joseph Robinette "Joe" Biden, Jr. has won, she is now more powerful than ever.

[Sarah S. Revenge]

Palin will have her revenge, though Joseph Robinette "Joe" Biden, Jr. has won, she is now more powerful than ever.