The So-Called POW

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One dog that just won't hunt in this presidential election is the octennial attempt to suggest that John McCain's imprisonment in Vietnam was somehow totally different than advertised. The latest example comes from the always-entertaining (and sometimes intentionally so) Gore Vidal, in a Q&A with the New York Times:

And what about Mr. McCain? Disaster. Who started this rumor that he was a war hero? Where does that come from, aside from himself? About his suffering in the prison war camp?

Everyone knows he was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam. That's what he tells us.

Why would you doubt him? He's a graduate of Annapolis. I know a lot of the Annapolis breed. Remember, I'm West Point, where I was born. My father went there.

So what does that have to do with the U.S. Naval Academy down in Annapolis? The service universities keep track of each other, that's all. They have views about each other. And they are very aware of social class and eventually money, since they usually marry it.

At the risk of taking Vidal seriously, there have been dozens of histories written about the 500 or so POWs in Vietnam, and every one I've seen that references McCain speaks about his spirited, morale-boosting resistance in the face of torture and humiliation. Which is enough to clear my "heroism" bar, for what that's worth.

Some bonus Vidal bitchiness:

How did you feel when you heard that Buckley died this year? I thought hell is bound to be a livelier place, as he joins forever those whom he served in life, applauding their prejudices and fanning their hatred. […]

Well, it was a great pleasure talking to you. I doubt that.

Link via Andrew Sullivan.

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  1. If Buckley is in hell, he’s just biding his time for Gore Vidal to join him and he can make good on his promise to knock him in his goddamned face.

    That would have to be good enough for Pay Per View, if you ask me.

  2. Oh, go suck another dick, Vidal, you fucking glass of pre-cum.
    I don’t agree with much of McCain’s politics, but to suggest that he fabricated his experience in Vietnam is horseshit. And fuck the NYT for even giving this blowhard, crusty old fuck any print at all.
    Die, Gore Vidal. Just fucking croak. Have a very painful heart attack while getting gang-fucked.

  3. There’s a great story I got from McCain’s wikipedia: after his capture and torture, fearing he was near death, McCain agreed to give his captors the names of everyone in his unit. He then proceeded to recite the Green Bay Packers’ 1968 offensive line.

  4. he’s just biding his time for Gore Vidal to join him and he can make good on his promise to knock him in his goddamned face.

    IIRC, that was Chomsky. I wish Buckley would have bludgeoned both of them with a tire iron.

  5. Well, it was a great pleasure talking to you. I doubt that.

    He even ad hominem’s himself (or his interviewer?).

  6. What percentage of Jamie Kelly’s post don’t involve violence?

    Just a point of interest. I don’t remember any, but I am sure the violent ones stick a bit better. They certainly are more entertaining.

  7. There’s a great story I got from McCain’s wikipedia: after his capture and torture, fearing he was near death, McCain agreed to give his captors the names of everyone in his unit. He then proceeded to recite the Green Bay Packers’ 1968 offensive line.

    While I strongly dislike McCain, if true, that’s pretty awesome.

  8. “Gore” Vidal. Al “Gore”. Al on Quantum Leap was played by Dean Stockwell. Dean Stockwell plays a cylon.

    Therefore, Gore Vidal is the final cylon model.

    It’s simple when you think about it.

  9. “What percentage of Jamie Kelly’s post don’t involve violence?”

    Jamie is the toughest of the internet tough guys.

  10. First the Obama “whitey tape” and now this. I wish Reason would restrict itself to spreading only plausible rumors.

  11. Oh come on folks…

    You need eloquent blow-hards like Vidal and Hitchens around to keep the left right sniping entertaining. They don’t have to be right, or honest, or honorable…just entertaining.

  12. The proper response to John McCain’s war heroism isn’t “nuh uH!” but rather “so explain to me what the implications of this would be on his presidency”

  13. What’s funny is that I really like a couple of Vidal’s historical novels–Julian and Creation. Too bad he decided to go insane instead of continuing to write good novels.

  14. Jamie is the toughest of the internet tough guys.

    With a blue belt in American Kenpo Karate.
    I will — mark my words — fucking tear your cock from its roots and make you suck it before ramming it down your esophagus.
    Eh, and then I’ll buy you a beer.

  15. What the hell is wrong with Gore Vidal? That shit wasn’t even funny. I wish people would either know something about McCain or Obama or Barr or whomever or otherwise STFU (Like that’ll ever happen). I thought guys like Vidal were supposed to raise the level of national discourse.*

    *bonus points to Vidal for actually spurring Welch to defend archnemesis John McCain.
    **Also, very nice non-sequitur by Vidal about growing up at West Point.

  16. Vidal is one of the reasons being a “public intellectual” should hold no sway in our society.

  17. I had the privilege of seeing Kurt Vonnegut give a speech in his old age (2006), and even though he had a lot of criticism for Pres. Bush, there was little of the apparent meanness that seems to have overcome Vidal.

  18. Funny how the double standard works: Democratic war hero: must be a fraud who made up crap to get purple hearts, and while nobody was looking, probably killed puppies and babies. Republic war hero: how dare you criticize a war hero!!

    No doubt somebody will say “but Kerry was a fraud…” thereby proving my point.

  19. Gore Vidal is still alive? Hell, I thought that old fart died years ago! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  20. Public intellectual, indeed.

  21. Why would you doubt him? He’s a graduate of Annapolis. I know a lot of the Annapolis breed. Remember, I’m West Point, where I was born. My father went there.

    Public intellectual, indeed.

  22. …but it was his stories to ‘killing puppies and babies’ that made him famous.

  23. All that needs to be said about McCain’s treatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese is that when the chips were down in 2006 he chose to immunize the torturers from his own country, and he chose to make it easier for more torture to occur in the future.

    So on the torture front that gives him one credit and one debit. That gives him a plus/minus of zero on the torture issue.

  24. No doubt somebody will say “but Kerry was a fraud…” thereby proving my point.

    It’s odd though – I don’t recall any reports of McCain having one of his men take home movies of his exploits as Kerry did. Guess he just wasn’t thinking ahead to his future campaign.

  25. Gore Vidal is still alive? Hell, I thought that old fart died years ago!

    He didn’t die, his relevence did.

    One more person on my Just Go Away list.

  26. Oh, go suck another dick, Vidal

    Actually, Vidal makes clear in Palimpsest that he is strictly a receiver, not a giver. And please take the foot off the accelerator on the rape fantasies, mmkay?

  27. He didn’t die, his relevence did.

    Uh, that was pretty much my point. Subtlety is wasted on you guys. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  28. The latest example comes from the always-entertaining (and sometimes intentionally so) Gore Vidal

    AKA, Al Gore’s smarter cousin.
    – Me

    Jamie Kelly, no it was a Buckley vs. Vidal political debate, both running for (and losing) a race in NY.

    Went something like this:

    Vidal – “Crypto-Nazi” tossed at Buckley in several exchanges.

    Buckley: “Look, you queer, if you call me a Nazi one more time I will smack you so hard you will stay stoned”

    or something like that, might have a few words out of order.

  29. Republic war hero: how dare you criticize a war hero!!

    There are actually potential elements of McCain’s service vulnerable to criticism, for those so inclined (i.e., not me), but implying that his heroism in Hanoi was made up & uncorroborated ain’t one of ’em.

  30. Smartass, I got it. I’m just really really hoping he goes away. Soon.

  31. Remember, I’m West Point, where I was born.

    Living in West point doesn’t make you a West Pointer.

    My father went there.

    Just because my father fought in Vietnam doesn’t make me a Vietnam War vet.

    [ed. note: Multiple profanities deleted. For teh Children, of course.]

  32. Favorite Buckley Quote:
    “Now, listen to me, you queer. Stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I’ll sock you in your goddamn facd and you’ll stay plastered.”
    Anyone who can get that reaction out of Buckley, who for all his faults was generally calm and pleasant, must be a real bitch.

  33. Matt, which parts of his service are vulnerable? I thought he had a pretty spotless record.

    Liberals aren’t very good at swiftboating anyway, so its not like this is going to go anywhere.

  34. “but implying that his heroism in Hanoi was made up & uncorroborated ain’t one of ’em.”

    Sure it is. Don’t you know that according to some reports, John McCain collaborated with the North Vietnamese? That’s treason!!

    And don’t give me the “that’s a lie” routine. It’s the smear that counts, not the truthfulness of the accusation. I’m just saying that an unfounded smear will stick against a democrat while it bounces off the republican.

  35. Sure it is. Don’t you know that according to some reports his own account, John McCain F. Kerry collaborated with the North Vietnamese? That’s treason!!

    Fixed with the truth ๐Ÿ™‚

  36. Lamar, the “Black child” smear stuck with McCain enough to sink him in South Carolina.

    Admittedly, that was coming from another, slimier Republican (Bush)but it did stick.

  37. What about the observations of former air force colonel, ted guy, now deceased? He claimed that in all the time that he was in captivity, he could not remember the vietnamese ever laying a hand on McCain.

  38. No Name Guy: I would tend to think that black baby smears would ruin a Republican, but bounce off of a Democrat. No?

  39. Look at McCain’s record on the pow/mia issue.
    One has to wonder why McCain acted the way he did. Only a fool would not ask questions such as what do you have to hide, senator? Why the rage against the families seeking answers and the truth?

  40. liberty mike,

    I’m sure McCain just loves to reminisce about his experience as a P.O.W. No pain or rage there.

  41. “No Name Guy: I would tend to think that black baby smears would ruin a Republican, but bounce off of a Democrat. No?”

    You’re right. IIRC they tried it on Clinton in ’92, and no dice.

    But I hear the Democratic nominee this time has two black children!!

  42. Art-P.O.G.

    What about Colonel Guy’s assertion?

    What about his record on the pow/mia issue and his treatment of the families seeking answers?

  43. What about Colonel Guy’s assertion?

    From what I understand, McCain was badly hurt upon crashing and merely denying him adequate medical treatment would be tantamount to torture. About the pow/mia issue, I’ll admit I don’t know much (I’m sorry Matt Welch, I’ll read it).

  44. But I hear the Democratic nominee this time has two black children!!

    i count 1.5, and that assumes his wife is fully black, and who the hell knows.

    i’m just waiting for the inevitable, “would society be better off if you had gone to prison for 10 years for snorting coke, and if no, why will you continue to pursue that policy?” question.

    vote gridlock and partisan infighting. vote mccain. it’s the best libertarian choice.

  45. liberty mike,

    I am trying to find the assertion that you are assigning to the COL, but should wait until I get off from work for that.

    Please refresh the memories of some of us, is he the fellow who accepted release out-of-turn or was that someone else?

  46. As libertarians, shouldn’t we be askling ourselves why in the world would we accept, at face value, that this guy is a hero?

    SHouldn’t we also be asking questions such as why should we be impressed with a person who has fed at the public trough almost his entire adult life? Why should we be impressed by such an unambiguous mediocrity?

    1. Legacy admittee to Annapolis.

    2. Finishes 5th from the bottom of his class.

    3. Accepted as a pilot because of dad and grandad.

  47. Has the guy ever met a payroll?

  48. Y’know, I hate to name-call, but that interview has “bitter old queen” written all over it.

  49. vote mccain. it’s the best libertarian choice.

    I just threw up in my mouth.

  50. We are presented with an appalling choice: Do we elect Obama and endure the horrors of a Democratic government (with the more socialistic elements resurgent AND a more receptive audience to crazy ideas during this recession), or do we elect McCain to get gridlock but wind up with some other pain overseas? If the GOP were sure to recapture Congress, I might vote for Obama, just to throw a wrench into the works. As things stand, looks like I’ll be voting LP again.

  51. As libertarians, shouldn’t we be askling ourselves why in the world would we accept, at face value, that this guy is a hero?

    I, and I am not even a political supporter of his, was convinced that he was long before I knew the word libertarian. Plenty of evidence from before his being a POW, like having lost several aircraft (including one shot, by another US plane, on the deck of the USS Forrestall while he was in it) and he continued flying.

    SHouldn’t we also be asking questions such as why should we be impressed with a person who has fed at the public trough almost his entire adult life? Why should we be impressed by such an unambiguous mediocrity?

    Being a Naval Officer does not quite fit your statement. Career politicians, I am not a fan of any more than you, but that does not reduce his prior acts of bravery and moral courage.

    1. Legacy admittee to Annapolis.

    There is not really any such thing. Might want to look up how appointments to the Acadamies are made. Prior graduates do not get to extend appointments. Medal of Honor recipients do get “automatic” appointments for their offspring, but his father was not one.

    Congress members, Presidents and I am not sure who else get to submit individuals for appointments. Those others are not service members of any rank.

    Also, getting an appointment does not get you in, you must still meet the academic standards and compeat against the other appointees for the available seats.

    2. Finishes 5th from the bottom of his class.

    Know what you call the guy who finished last? Ensign or Lieutenant (for Marines). Point is, he finished.

    3. Accepted as a pilot because of dad and grandad.

    Wow, you really don’t know anything about this stuff do you?

    If you can’t pass the aptitude test and the physical it does not matter who your relatives are, you are not going to flight school.

    If you suck badly enough in flight school, you do not graduate.

    Plenty of other jobs out there for Officers you know.

    BTW, he was an Aviator, not a pilot, as he was in a non-Air Force branch of the US Armed forces flying an aircraft.

  52. The guy lost three planes while in flight school. Gee…, let me think a moment. Legacy admittee. Graduates fifth from the bottom of his class of close to 400. Loses three planes while in flight school. If that were anyblody else,…..

  53. What has he done after the navy? He has been a career politician.

  54. liberty mike,

    If you are responding to me, try reading what I wrote. Should answer your 1:41 comment if it was directed at me anyway.

  55. liberty mike,

    The guy lost three planes while in flight school. Gee…, let me think a moment. Legacy admittee. Graduates fifth from the bottom of his class of close to 400. Loses three planes while in flight school. If that were anyblody else,…..

    Yep, you really don’t know anything about this stuff. Will try to just skip you on these topics since attempting to inform you seems a waste of electrons.

  56. Guy-

    Were you there when McCain’s application was pending? Do you have irrefutable, unambiguous, unimpeachable facts to support your assertions above? THus, you were in on the Navy’s decision-making on McCain?

    As if the operations of the armed forces have never been bent for somebody special? That position is DOA.

  57. Vote? Nah, I think I’ll just go “appoint Bob Barr.” ๐Ÿ˜‰

  58. Die, Crypto-Nazis, Die!

  59. Vidal is a great novelist and a wretched political commentator. Hard to believe they’re the same person.

  60. Guy and ART P.O.G.-

    Do you know what the North Vietnamese called McCain?

    SONGBIRD.

    Have you ever considered what John McLamb has had to say about him? How about former North Vietnamese communist party official, Phang Van Chung?

  61. Were you there when McCain’s application was pending?

    No, lm, and neither were you. Neither of you has first-hand knowledge of McCain’s academic and military career.

    Do you have irrefutable, unambiguous, unimpeachable facts to support your assertions above?

    No, and neither do you. What Guy does have on his side is the SOP for the academies and the service. If you want to claim that SOP was sidestepped for McCain, the burden is on you. Just as it was on Dan Rather four years ago.

    As if the operations of the armed forces have never been bent for somebody special?

    Sure they have. Lets see something more than “His dad was an admiral, and he was in the Navy!”

    For starters, if he really was getting the books cooked by his Dad’s connections, wouldn’t have placed higher in his class?

    And, really, nobody, but nobody, gets to fly an airplane if they don’t make the grade. Doing so is generally fatal.

  62. “BTW, he was an Aviator, not a pilot, as he was in a non-Air Force branch of the US Armed forces flying an aircraft.”

    Is that the rule? I thought “Navy Aviator” existed as a term was because the Navy has had the occupation of Pilot (the local specialist you bring on board to navigate close to coastline and in harbors) since the beginning, not because the Air Force has any special monopoly on the Navy’s use of language.

  63. I was a major Gore Vidal fanboy from my late adolescence through my college years. Lincoln, Burr, Myra Breckinridge, Myron assorted short stories, all those essays from 60s-80s? Unfuckwithable. He was funny, grouchy and literate seemingly on command, seemingly 24 hours a day. I loved his public persona (although even then I figured there was a fair degree of pro wrestling involved) and don’t regret a minute spent tracking down anything with his name on it. Even in his less inspired essays, there’d – at least – be a sentence or two that would brighten my day.

    In the late 1990s, he seemed to have lost a step; 9/11, however, seems to have catapulted him into senility overnight. I wanted to cry when, a few years ago, he started making vaguely “Truther”-esque noises. Now, I read stuff like this and just shake my head. This is how the guy who wrote The City and the Pillar ends up: a shriveled, paranoid, demented geezer. I wish he’d just keel over already – turn him into soylant green before he tarnishes his reputation any further.

  64. gorgonzola’s foil,

    Not a rule, official title, well maybe that makes it a rule.

    In the Army, Navy, Mariens and Coast Guard (no longer part of DoD), one becomes qualified as an Aviator and earns an Aviator’s Badge. That is the official title of those people (including me, from the US Army side of the world). Pilot is just a crew position for us.

    In the Air Force, their official title for the same job is Pilot. One is an Air Force Pilot, not an Air Force Aviator.

    IIRC, for the Army you could find the official designation in the AR 600 series and the rules of actually flying in the AR 95 series of Army Regulations.

  65. liberty mike,
    Yeah, I’ve heard it.

  66. RCD beat me to my response to lm, but AI was planning on sticking to my decision of not writing a response anyway.

  67. stupid fat fingers hitting shift+a before the I.

    proofread is my friend

    proofread is my friend

    proofread is my friend

  68. While I strongly dislike McCain, if true, that’s pretty awesome.

    I will not fall for your propaganda.

    I am still voting Barr.

  69. Dave just likes McCain because the thought of a 100 year occupation really turns him on.

  70. Guy, RC Dean-

    According to Ted Sampley writing in US Veterans Dispatch, October, 1999, McCain crashed his plane in Corpus Christi Bay, while in training. According to Mr. Sampley, McCain also collided his plane into power lines in Spain.

    Why wasn’t McCain promoted during his time in captivity?

  71. How about McCain dumping his first wife?

    She was hurt in an automobile accident and required numerous surgeries. The hero was not pleased with her appearance.

    Great character.

  72. Wouldn’t a libertarian position be to question why we should commemorate as a hero someone who, of his own will, enthusiastically joined in his government’s misguided war effort, then later became a principled advocate of U.S. military belligerence, even after experiencing first-hand the misery and suffering his fellow vets were put through because of it?

    I’m not saying I agree completely with that assessment, but I’m just throwing it out there.

  73. GM, Rotary or fixed wing?

  74. FYI, a good quick guide to Army ribbons, badges and devices can be found here (.pdf warning).

    Note, the official names are right below the items, i.e., it is proper to say Parachutist badge, not “jump wings”.

  75. broterben,

    Rotary, of course.

  76. Fort Rucker at some point I assume?

  77. Fort Rucker at some point I assume?

    LOL, yes, I came into the field long after the Officer Rotary Wing Aviator Course (ORWAC) left Texas.

    Went to Rucker for AVOAC and the Refresher Course one time too.

  78. I have apaches overhead all the time. Just a stone’s throw from Hooper stage field. There was an Osprey doing tricks for the crowd on memorial day across from the shoppette. I will sa that the Apaches are far more tolerable overhead than the Hueys.

  79. brotherben, this just sparked a new thread! Here, I will imitate one of our threadmates here:

    liberty mike: Montag must be some elitest big-shot! He went to flight school! Who did he know and when did he know them? He even went to his Captains Career Course BEFORE being boarded for Captain! Why did he turn down promotion to Captain TWICE!? How did he make Captain BEFORE completing his college degree!?!?!? Why was he assigned to the Army Personnel COmmand at a desk job the day before being promoted to Captain!?!? How come he was never assigned to the Pentagon in uniform!?!?!? How come he is a Major in the IRR but his civilian job is a Lieutenant Colonel equivelant?!?!?! This Guy guy better not run for office, I have the goods on him!

    There is no way that the son of a disabled postal worker and grandson of construction workers could ever accomplish this!

  80. brotherben,

    I was one of the UH-1H students annoying you in the mid-1980s and a few weeks in 1992.

  81. Funny how the double standard works: Democratic war hero: must be a fraud who made up crap to get purple hearts, and while nobody was looking, probably killed puppies and babies. Republic war hero: how dare you criticize a war hero!!

    No doubt somebody will say “but Kerry was a fraud…” thereby proving my point.

    I have a proposal for Reason OnLine. Two little boxes at the start of every thread. One that says Reason just shills for thr Republicans. Another that states Reason is just a bunch of leftist Obama fanboys.

    That dumbasses won’t have to type out their inane bitches.

  82. That – Then. Oh well, you get the idea.

  83. You noisy Bastage!

    Dad got stationed here as he left for Vietnam in ’71. Back then, it was all hueys directly over the house, all the time. A number of those pilots are instructor pilots here now. They are getting old and retiring and I don’t know where they are gonna get replacements in the numbers I would think they need.

    As for your career advancement, I am so bothered by your unorthodox resume that I don’t feel I can ever vote for you as a threadwinner again.

  84. Check out Devy Kidd’s August 26, 2004 column on the hero.

  85. If Jim Webb is picked as VP, $10 says Montag and Tall Dave will write about how he is a fraud and his war record is fabricated.

  86. I gotta say this. My father did a tour in Vietnam in 71′-72. He was heavy eq. maintenance, with an engineers battalion. As far as I know, he never was in traditional combat and was not taken prisoner. I am certain, however, that he was a different man when he came home. For a person to question the honor of Mccain’s actions as a POW and thereby his character

    I am at a loss for vile enough words. Is Jamie Kelly available to ghostwrite?

  87. The burden rests with those who assert this guy is a hero.

    No person here can carry that burden. Sure, some of this is semantic as there are those who like to cling to their statist conception of what heroism is. Choosing to kill little boys and girls and little old ladies from thousands of feet in the air is not heroism. It is cowardice. It is treasonous as SOP dictates that all military personnel, including graduates of Annapolis, take an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. A naval officer who takes the oath seriously would never agree to participate in a war and kill little babies where, as with Vietnam, the so called enemy had not attacked the United States. Any naval officer should be conversant enough with the constitution to know that it does not grant the government power to make war on foreign lands.

  88. What is vile is defending a guy who unleashes death and destruction on little boys and little girls. Putrid, actually.

  89. Brotherben, how did you feel about the swiftboating of Kerry?

  90. So on the torture front that gives him one credit and one debit. That gives him a plus/minus of zero on the torture issue.

    Fluffy, you are more generous than I can bring myself to be.

    He was one guy tortured, sure, but his support of torture in the present allows many people to be tortured. So, that’s like “+1” and then “-[some medium-sized finite number]”.

    Not even close to breaking even.

  91. I see that there are not any defenses to the hero’s treatment of his first wife.

    I see that there are no defense to the fact that the hero has been a career politician since leaving the navy.

    How about his Keating connections? Doesn’t that kind of corruption bother folks? All the free jet trips. All the island get-aways?

    Yeah. Heroes are:

    (1) The kid in front of the tank in Tianemen square.

    (2) James J. Hill

    (3) Malsherbes

    (4) James Otis

    (5) Clarence Darrow

    (6) George Anastaplo

  92. If the GOP were sure to recapture Congress, I might vote for Obama, just to throw a wrench into the works.

    my thoughts exactly.

    artpog, you misunderstand the difference between a libertarian president (which mccain is decidedly not) and a (de facto) libertarian government, which is most reliably achieved by having the president and congress too busy going for one another’s jugulars to find time to “lead” us.

  93. I see that there are not any defenses to the hero’s treatment of his first wife.

    maybe because, who gives a flying fuck?

  94. If Jim Webb is picked as VP, $10 says Montag and Tall Dave will write about how he is a fraud and his war record is fabricated.

    Go ahead and pay up now. I never viewed Senator Webb as some sort of Kerry from Virginia. Don’t know of anything that would change my mind either.

  95. NNG, I don’t know enough about it to have a valid opinion.

  96. Maybe beacuse dumping your wife who waited for you while you were allegedly tortured because she got in an accident and wasn’t attracive to you anymore doe not fit so easily and snugly with the statist notions of “hero”

  97. Amazingly, some people seem to think that the only reason for one divorcing a spouse is their appearance.

    Talk about a skin deep mindset.

  98. “Amazingly, some people seem to think that the only reason for one divorcing a spouse is their appearance.”

    I thought the family values party wasn’t supposed to be divorcing anybody. Isn’t that from the bible or something?

  99. Guy-

    That’s your boy there. But, you can’t see that because you are so blinded. Your boy was the one who was “appalled” at the sight of his first wife after her accident and surgeries.

    But, I shouldn’t be surprised. Hero worship dies hard for some.

  100. The true libertarian question here is: How can we bring the national parties away from the cliff of Socialism before they leap off, with us in tow?

    Sen. McCain was recently having a fit over CEO compensation. WTF? Something wrong with Captains of Industry getting paid better than the legeslature? Even if some of them get paid better than the whole Senate combined?

    Sen. McCain, if you don’t like it, buy some stock and change it!

    Well, okay, that is not the question for this thread, but it is a question.

  101. The military and family values: what a joke.

  102. I thought the family values party wasn’t supposed to be divorcing anybody. Isn’t that from the bible or something?

    I always looked at it as “get divorced before you get your wick wet elsewhere”.

  103. Wow, did joe change his handle today or something?

  104. When the topic is McCain, liberals are generally content to let conservatives nail the guy.

  105. Lamar,

    Wondering why the liberals/leftists get all in a twist with phrases like “keep your Rosarie off my Ovaries” but then they start quoting the Bible when it suits them. Like those nuts that were at my METRO stop this morning (most Mondays) with how Jesus would not approve of war.

    Interesting study for someone, I guess.

  106. Funny how the double standard works: Democratic war hero: must be a fraud who made up crap to get purple hearts, and while nobody was looking, probably killed puppies and babies. Republic war hero: how dare you criticize a war hero!!

    No doubt somebody will say “but Kerry was a fraud…” thereby proving my point.

    Purple Hearts aren’t that difficult to get.

    This is pretty much standard political procedure these days. Having served in the military in a combat situation is generally considered to be a huge plus, so the opposition will do anything it can to minimize it.

    In 1988 there were rumors going around about George Bush Sr.’s WWII record.

    In 2000, Al Gore (who was actually in Vietnam) was attacked for not doing enough there.

    In 2004, Kerry was swiftboated.

    So it really shouldn’t be any surprise that McCain is now facing these kinds of questions.

    The one exception would be Bob Dole. I don’t remember any attacks on his war record in 1996. (Doesn’t mean there weren’t any. I just don’t remember any.)

  107. The true libertarian question here is: How can we bring the national parties away from the cliff of Socialism before they leap off, with us in tow?”

    GM, I think that is being asked on the latest thread up above.

    Liberty mike, Unless you can provide absolute proof that you have been a perfect adherent to the moral values that I believe in, I can no longer give any attention to anything you say. Good day.

  108. liberty mike, you crack me up:

    Why wasn’t McCain promoted during his time in captivity?

    Umm, because his dad was an Admiral? Oh, wait, that would be a reason for promoting him.

    Really, you keep giving us reasons to doubt that McCain was shepherded through his military career by the Old Admiral’s Club.

    I thought the family values party wasn’t supposed to be divorcing anybody.

    You might not have noticed, but McCain doesn’t really get along with family values crowd.

    Really, I can’t stand the guy, but the anti-McCainiacs on this thread are so over-the-top I can’t help myself. Next I’ll probably be standing up for Obama.

  109. brotherben,

    I can testify that in no uncertain terms, virtually 100% of all of the guys who have flown anything military are into chicks, even hot chicks, with the small percentage who are not into hot chicks are Air Force guys who, no matter what they may profess in their regular life of watching the BRAVO channel and drinking fruity drinks with umbrellas in them, will fall for a hot chick but may try to excuse it as believing she was a transgendered person.

    Women in Aviation seem to be like regular women, without much difference in the number of guys they hookup with after college.

  110. The one exception would be Bob Dole. I don’t remember any attacks on his war record in 1996. (Doesn’t mean there weren’t any. I just don’t remember any.)

    Probably because his war wounds were apparent – that crippled arm. McCain’s (and certainly Kerry’s) aren’t.

  111. Wait…McCain was in ‘Nam. I never heard that anywhere before.

  112. Liberty mike, he didn’t merely dump her. The scumbag was wholly unfaithful to his vows and was fucking his current whore while still supposedly “married.” A sterling record of mass murder, infidelity, and political corruption. McCain 08′!

  113. The military and family values: what a joke.

    Show us on the doll where the military touched you.

  114. Really, I can’t stand the guy, but the anti-McCainiacs on this thread are so over-the-top I can’t help myself. Next I’ll probably be standing up for Obama.

    I also pretty much have to stand up to the slander against both of them. I don’t really like a whole lot about Obama’s or McCain’s positions, but bullshit slander from people too ignorant or intellectually lazy to discuss the issues deservers to be treated like for what it is. That being dishonest ignorant Go Team Go bullshit.

    Any questions liberty mike?

  115. War hero – one who commits genocide and wreaks carnage on behalf of the American State

    Fanatic, extremist, insurgent – foreigners who defend their country against U.S. occupation and invasion

  116. Douchebag- one who wilfully oversimplifies and distorts any scenario to bolster his political views.

  117. J sub D-

    Who here has slandered McCain? I will give you a trillion dollars if you can prove that your war hero mediocrity has been slandered.

  118. Ju sub D-

    By the way, I believe I have already observed that Mr. Obama is a communist, just like your war hero. Barrack has spent far too much time in the public sector as well.

  119. People recognize that the J sub Ds and Art P.O.G.s are not authentic libertarians.

  120. Jamie Kelly,

    American Kenpo Karate is for pussies. Real men practice Cobra Kai.

  121. People recognize that the J sub Ds and Art P.O.G.s are not authentic libertarians.

    Hey Art,

    Do we get to drink now?

  122. People recognize that the J sub Ds and Art P.O.G.s are not authentic libertarians.

    OK. Maybe we can all share a drink!*

    *The “not a real libertarian” thing is a drinking game, too, right?

  123. J Sub D, I guess great minds think alike.

  124. And so do we.

  125. ) War hero or traitor?
    1. Served in the military and held captive.
    2. Worked to pass legislation to eviscerate the 1st Amendment (among other Maverick ideas

  126. You guys going on about how McCain is a hero for surviving torture are missing the big issue here.

    Why does McCain want to make heroes out of all the radical islamist jihadist prisoners in Gitmo?

  127. “Art-P.O.G. | June 16, 2008, 5:10pm | #
    J Sub D, I guess great minds think alike.

    Art-P.O.G. | June 16, 2008, 5:10pm | #
    And so do we.”

    This joke is only funny if there are at least 3 comments posted between the set-up and the payoff.

  128. Jamie Kelly, Johnny Lawrence…

    Kenpo is for pussies and Cobra Kai is for kids…

    Krav Maga is the preferred choice of internet tough guys everywhere.

  129. Art-P.O.G.,
    That was exactly my point. Pointing out the mentality of the douchebag who simplifies world events as a battle between the Good Guy American vs. the evil, subhuman savages. That is, the view that American war criminals are invariably judged to be virtuous, upstanding, courageous heroes to the degree that they shed blood in obedience to the State. What the douchebag is oblivious to, however, is the untold suffering and pain caused by his illustrious killers, and doubtless he could care less if it was ever brought to his attention.

  130. Oh, I thought you were trolling. FWIW, few people here actually think in such simplistic terms.

  131. “First Blood” is on SPIKE right now. One good lesson is how to defeat a helicopter persuit from close range, with a rock. And how to sew your arm up if you have a properly appointed survival knife.

    Cool thing from the past, I did meet “The Arkansas Knifesmith” (forgot his real name, but knew it for years) who made the Rambo survival knife, at a Knife and Gun show in Knoxville not long after this move was out.

    Not sure why John J. Rambo keeps looking at a coumpas without having a map, in unfamiliar terrain. I suspect the work of a college trained screenwriter.

    No doubt DW or lm will have a thesis on why Rambo is a documentry of the American experience, but the sane world knows that it is fiction.

  132. Wow, that nuclear LAW scene sucks even worse in this century than it did when this movie came out.

  133. I always liked John McClain better than Rambo.

  134. er, McClane. I can explain that misspelling rationally.

  135. McCain’s “heroism” is phonier than Keanu Reeves’ British accent in Dracula.

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j092999.html

    McCain was shot down on October 26, 1967, over Truc Bach Lake, near Hanoi. As I pointed out in my last column about McCain, he claimed in a US News and World Report article [May 14, 1973] that he languished in a cell for several days, his injuries untreated. Confronted with a North Vietnamese officer who was “a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends we had to deal with,” as McCain put it, he decided to cooperate. According to his own account, McCain said: “OK, I will give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.” While there are some conflicting stories about how long he was actually in that cell, he gave his first interview on October 31, with French television reporter Francois Chalais for Beirut’s L’Orient, who wrote:

    Uh oh…

    This John Sidney McCain is not an ordinary prisoner. His father is none other than Admiral Edmond John McCain, Commander-in-chief of US naval forces in Europe. In a weak voice, he relates his story to me: ‘I was carrying out a bombing mission, my twenty-third raid over Hanoi. It was then that I was hit. I wanted to eject but while doing so I broke both arms and my right thigh. Unconscious, I fell in a lake. Some Vietnamese jumped in the water and pulled me out. Later I learned there must have been about 12 of them. They immediately took me to a hospital, in condition two inches away from death. A doctor operated on my thigh. Others at the same time dealt with my arms.”

    So I call bullshit on his stories. He claims he was tortured by the Vietnamese, but he supports torture and lynchings by kangaroo courts now. He whined about the SCOTUS decision last week, but the fact that he’s able to run for President today is because the Vietnamese didn’t try and execute him for the war crimes he CONFESSED to committing. He claims he only confessed because he was tortured, yet he thinks evidence obtained by torture is just swell for others.

    Fuck John McCain.

  136. McCain stated in a 1997 60-minutes interview “I am a war criminal. I bombed innocent women and children”. He also colloborated with the North Vietnamese according to his own account where he states he told them “I’ll give you military information if you take me to the hospital”. He divulged information such as the name of the aircraft carrier he was on, the number of US pilots that had been lost and the number of aircraft in his formation. All of this is on the public record. So much for your war hero.

  137. Look up (Veterans Against McCain). Frankly, I don’t care about his war record. He is obviously unfit to be president today. He is as confused as Reagan, and he will just let the crooks have another field day.

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