Family Issues

Texas Appeals Court Says Removal of FLDS Children Was Unjustified

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A Texas appeals court has ruled that the state acted improperly in removing more than 450 minors from the FLDS Church's Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado and placing them in foster care. An attorney for the children's mothers told the Desert News:

CPS was not justified in removing these children. They did not provide any evidence that the children were in danger, and they acted hastily in removing the children.

The story does not include details of the decision, and the paper says "it is unclear if the children will be returned immediately to the ranch or what impact this will have on ongoing status hearings."

Here is my column arguing that the state overreached and a followup post on its attempts to retroactively justify seizing the children.

Update: CNN has more:

"The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the three-judge panel said.

The state's Department of Family and Protective Services "did not present any evidence of danger to the physical health or safety of any male children or any female children who had not reached puberty," the judges ruled.

According to the ruling, the mothers said the state should have proved that the children's health or safety was in danger; that there was "an urgent need for protection" that required immediately separating the children from their parents; and that the state made "reasonable efforts" to avoid removing the children.

Because no such proof was presented, the mothers argued, the District Court—which backed the department's seizure of the children—"was required to return the children to their parents and abused its discretion by failing to do so."

"The legislature has required that there be evidence to support a finding that there is a danger to the physical health or safety of the children in question and that the need for protection is urgent and warrants immediate removal," the ruling said.

It concluded, "Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may some day have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal prior to full litigation of the issue."

The full opinion is here.

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  1. Almost exactly what I hoped they would rule.

    There are actually other grounds for kicking out the seizure of most of the children, on both due process (c’mon, one hearing for 460 kids?) and substantive grounds (seizing 460 kids was the least intrusive method of ensuring their safety?).

  2. That was fast, CNN just put the story up. It’s about time the courts stepped in and told the state “Enough!”

  3. Let the litigation begin!

  4. Whether or not they overreached they certainly acted hastily and sloppily, perhaps to the point that any evidence of actual wrongdoing will be inadmissable.

    Blech.

  5. Who could ever complain about the speediness and fairness of the Texas Appellate Courts?

    Well, aside from death penalty defendants.

  6. Evidence that the system works to correct errors.

    Imagine.

    Good for the system.

  7. “Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may some day have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal prior to full litigation of the issue.”

    Damn those activist judges!

  8. Cheap shot, Neu.

  9. Is sanity coming to America’s justice system? Or am I being too hopeful? I await the decision regarding the rights of DC residents to defend themselves with 19th century technology.

  10. To Tonio and all other commenters with similar ideas: Get a grip! Get over it! Just because there is a group of people who believe and behave differently than you think they should does not mean any child abuse is ocurring! Tonio, the law should not be going around looking under every stone in every house if there is anything happening that could be construed as “wrongdoing”.

    RC, I agree with you. But, pray tell, why do we always have to wait until some court sees fit to rule the obvious on narrow legal grounds, the ruling affects only 38 out of the almost 500 kids: This whole affair and many thousand smaller ones across the country stinks. Another abuse of power tolerated by way too many people. And we will see more of it when CPS and their enabler fight tooth and nail to escape accountability. Child Protective Service, what a sick outfit!

  11. I’ll believe it when all the kids are with their parents until then it’s just a bump in the state’s railroad job. I’m sure the state will hammer it out flat or take a detour around to complete the railroad.

  12. Huh. The State is useful after all?

  13. Huh. The State is useful after all?

    No, sometimes the state is self-correcting.

  14. Yee Haw! It’s par-tay time! Them little gals woant be able to run fast enough when wese FLDS manly-men gets a hankerin’ fur some young love! And now wese gits our sons back to hep ketch ’em.

    Y’all libbertarianses send us yore young’uns. If’n we cain’t gets the post-pubers, we’ll jest have to settle for the preemies!

    You Sull’um, we skull’em, if’n you gets mah drift.

  15. Well, at least as far as the law is concerned this seems the proper thing (R C Dean pointed out the obvious absurdities), but I won’t exactly be jumping for joy.

    The world does not need more Mormon fundie extremist spawn, and there was some evidence of bona fide abuse which would be cause for significant concern. However, the law is not a justice machine, and even in the best of times it can only ever attempt to equitably weigh competing interests imperfectly stated and acted upon.

    Ah well.

  16. Juts to be clear, the world would do better without fundie extremist spawn of any flavor, lest you get the impression I think LDS is somehow worse than any other sort of religious/ideological fundamentalism.

  17. Is sanity coming to America’s justice system? Or am I being too hopeful?

    No, one is not a trend.
    Yes. But I find myself inexplicably optimistic from time to time as well.

  18. I guess that Libertarians are for legalizing sex with children after all.

  19. Evidence that the system works to correct errors.

    “Here’s a band-aid for that bullet-wound, kid. Walk it off.”

    I find the FLDS creepy to the extreme, but 460 kids in foster care is not evidence the system works, just that it knows when to cut its losses. Sort of like still going on no-knock raids, but trying to not kill everyone in the house because of the bad press.

  20. I guess that Libertarians are for legalizing sex with children after all.

    I see this notion fills you with glee. I bet you’re dreaming of a fat boy’s ass right now, aren’t you…

    Please stop using our comment board to exercise your sexual fantasies.

  21. And they called it Puppy Love.

  22. Pardon me all, but I have that irresistible urge to speak out the truth:

    Elemenope, you are an A#1 idiot and a troll to boot! Go open your own blog, idiot-proof instructions here. You’ll get rich to boot. I’ll be in touch to collect my %% for telling you the secret.

  23. Martin,

    Get a grip! Get over it!

    Thanks for defining my needs. Always an effective communication strategy.

    Just because there is a group of people who believe and behave differently than you think they should does not mean any child abuse is ocurring!

    Er, when did I say there was?

    Tonio, the law should not be going around looking under every stone in every house if there is anything happening that could be construed as “wrongdoing”.

    And I agree with you on that. However, I don’t see how you could reasonably construe my post as saying they should.

    Please read for comprehension, and unless you know the poster don’t assume anything other than the plain text of the post.

  24. Sugarfree,

    I disagree.

    Checks and balances of power were built into the system, and they worked just as designed this time. One branch over-reached, the other responded.

    Now CPS will have to go back and do what it usually does…work case-by-case and provide evidence of harm before removing kids.

  25. I guess that Libertarians are for legalizing sex with children after all.

    130 kids are under the age of 5, what is the evidence they were being sexually abused? Some of the kids are actually adults and/or at least above the age of consent in that state, so not illegal for them to marry and have children. There is no evidence that any of the hundreds of boys were being sexually abused.

    So if your 3 year old son and married 17 year old daughter are kidnapped by the state and plced into a group home, wouldn’t you be a little upset?

    The cause for the raid turned out to be a hoax, the “broken bones” that were widely reported were actually a lesser percent than the national average for childhood injuries.

    Where’s the abuse?

    Now if there is an 11 year old girl who is pregnant, that’s cause for concern and that should be investigated, but that not a reason to take the other children of that girl’s neighbors is it?

    Unless you have evidence that a kid is being abused, it’s wrong to take them into custoday because other people’s kids are being abused, you have to have evidence specific to my kid. That’s why the appellete made it’s decision and it’s the right one. Take in the victims and prosecute to abusers, don’t just throw a blanket over everyone at the ranch without evidence.

    The sad thing is because they didn’t follow the law, some of the abused kids might not get the help they need and some of the abusers might get off.

  26. My God anyone see this article. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095

    I don’t have any children and never feared the CPS until reading this

    Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

    I guess I could be forced in to an abusive foster home even at my age of 40.

  27. Sugarfree,

    re: I see this notion fills you with glee. I bet you’re dreaming of a fat boy’s ass right now, aren’t you…

    I am confused. Is it preference for shaved pussy, or support for judicial oversight that makes libertarians pedophiles?

  28. Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

    Bet she sues for false imprisonment?

  29. Neu Mejican,

    I think checks and balances are a great idea, and a month or so of foster care is not going to destroy these kids lives, but checks should not only correct mistakes but keep them from happening in the first place. 460 kids in foster care should have never been a reasonable option.

    Just like a falsely convicted prisoner, the “check” part of the system eventually gets him out of jail, and he might get a little money, but I remain outraged it happened in the first place.

    I hope this leads to reforms, but I won’t bet the (creepy, cult-occupied) farm.

    (We really don’t disagree, here it seems. I’m just angrier.)

  30. Tonio, nothing personal, aimed more at any future posters. I should have made that clear.
    You didn’t say the law should be looking indiscriminately. But you did express concern that if they had found anything it would now be inadmissible. Well, they clearly went fishing. they shouldn’t have been there to begin with.

    Sugarfree:

    Wouldn’t you say that the the system only works if it doesn’t overreach in the first place? Nothing more and nothing less.

  31. Neu Mejican,

    They seem to be having a hard time making up their minds, don’t they…

    Wow, I get so tired of drive-by anonymous insults.

  32. Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

    It gets worse, of the 15 pregant mothers, it turns out 7 of them were male.

    I’m kidding, but at this rate, I might only be predicting.

  33. Hmmmm….I like shaved pussy AND judical oversight. Somebody better call the cops!

  34. Wouldn’t you say that the the system only works if it doesn’t overreach in the first place? Nothing more and nothing less.

    I won’t say it only works in that context, but I will say it works best when it doesn’t pee on the floor without a rolled newspaper to the nose. Maybe an attitude of “what’s best for this situation?” rather than “what can we get away with?” But that would require someone to have a little humility, wouldn’t it?

  35. I may be new here, but I submit Abdul as the thread winner

    It gets worse, of the 15 pregant mothers, it turns out 7 of them were male.

  36. They sure don’t have any humility. They are criminally negligent. Next they will testify in court that it is only natural and easy to mistake a 27 year-old for underage. CPS: a bunch of lying, power-drunk, incompetent bunch of morons.
    We can’t even get our police and prosecutors in check, it will be a long time before CPS will get reined in. Too many people just seem to lose any sense of perspective when children are involved. One could think it is 1608.

  37. ktc2,

    I am so surfing for hairless judge porn when I get home.

  38. Pardon me all, but I have that irresistible urge to speak out the truth:

    Hilarity inevitably follows from any sentence that ends that way.

    Elemenope, you are an A#1 idiot and a troll to boot!

    I wasn’t exactly pining for your esteem, but I hesitantly ask, what part of my post was a troll: the part where I begrudgingly note that the law was functioning as it should, though it may have negative consequences for some kids, or the part where I shit all over ideological extremism?

    Go open your own blog, idiot-proof instructions here. You’ll get rich to boot. I’ll be in touch to collect my %% for telling you the secret.

    No thanks, too busy/lazy.

  39. I won’t say it only works in that context, but I will say it works best when it doesn’t pee on the floor without a rolled newspaper to the nose. Maybe an attitude of “what’s best for this situation?” rather than “what can we get away with?” But that would require someone to have a little humility, wouldn’t it?

    It is that occasional newspaper to the nose that restrains action the next time. Unfortunately that lesson can only be learned in the context of a puddle of piss on the floor.

    FWIW, I believe the problem in this situation was actually based on “what’s best for this situation?” rather than “What can we get away with?” Those rules about what you can and can’t get away with are designed to restrain context dependent decisions…this is both their strength and their weakness.

  40. Juts to be clear, the world would do better without fundie extremist spawn of any flavor, lest you get the impression I think LDS is somehow worse than any other sort of religious/ideological fundamentalism.

    They have their place, it’s just that sometimes they forget what their place is. It’s sort of like how we need insanity to order to define insanity, i would never want to be rid of fundies, they are the warning signs to tell the rest of us how far is too far….

    my personal opinion of course.

  41. I meant we need insanity to order to define sanity

  42. Beg your pardon Elemenope, I misjudged you. I just thought that calling several hundred distressed kids “Mormon fundie extremist spawn” was idiotic.
    I now see that you didn’t get my drift, my bad. No point in again trying to enlighten you. Sadly, lights are out.

  43. Booo, for shaved pussy.

  44. @2:53 PM: To Tonio and all other commenters with similar ideas[…]

    @3:36 PM: Tonio, nothing personal, aimed more at any future posters.

    Sounds pretty personal to me when you start your post with my name and use me as an exemplar of a class. Your backpeddling and denial of responsibility is worthy of Sen. Clinton.

    [T]hey shouldn’t have been there to begin with.

    Regardless of whether they should have been, they were. I can’t change that reality. My comments addressed the current situation, not what (arguably) should have been.

  45. The world does not need more Mormon fundie extremist spawn

    Glad you finally got that appointment as “sole judge of who is fit to reproduce”, LMNOP. I’m sure you’ll use those new powers fairly.

    /sarcasm

  46. Any one else dying to hear what Nancy Grace will say about the latest developement? lol

  47. Neu,
    “I am confused. Is it preference for shaved pussy, or support for judicial oversight that makes libertarians pedophiles?”

    Shaved pussy would indicate the (prior) presence of pubic hair. WAY too old for my tastes….

  48. Martin,

    Elemenope, you are an A#1 idiot and a troll to boot!

    Er, Martin, Elemenope is a thoughtful and regular poster here. You, not so much on either count. If you want the respect of the community, you’d do well to emulate Elemenope.

  49. a month or so of foster care is not going to destroy these kids lives

    A single day of foster care would have destroyed my life, if it was against my will.

    Because I would have burned the place down.

    Off to reform school for Fluffy.

  50. I am confused. Is it preference for shaved pussy, or support for judicial oversight that makes libertarians pedophiles?

    The preference for judicial oversight, for sure! [rimshot]

    Seriously, shaved pubes on women have often been criticized by the screechier feminists as evidence of crypto-pedophilia. Shaved pubes and large breasts are also part of the mommy fetish since women who have recently given birth have those characteristics.

  51. Juts to be clear, the world would do better without fundie extremist spawn of any flavor, lest you get the impression I think LDS is somehow worse than any other sort of religious/ideological fundamentalism.

    The solution to bad spawn is more spawn, my friend. Libertarians who use condoms and birth control, or masturbate to pictures of the Lobster Girl, have no standing to criticize those who do reproduce.

  52. The world does not need more Mormon fundie extremist spawn, and there was some evidence of bona fide abuse which would be cause for significant concern.

    If there is evidence of abuse, why have no charges been filed or arrests made?

  53. Shaved pubes and large breasts are also part of the mommy fetish since women who have recently given birth have those characteristics.

    So why aren’t more guys attracted to fat women, since that’s also a characteristic of women who’ve recently given birth?

    I suspect the breast and hip things have more to do with the advantage of having a mate who could more easily give birth and produce enough milk for the offspring to survive.

  54. “what’s best for this situation?” rather than “What can we get away with?”

    Well of course. It’s always about Best Intentions.

    I do hope that this is only the first step in correcting this wrong. Some serious consequences are in order.

  55. I think checks and balances are a great idea, and a month or so of foster care is not going to destroy these kids lives, but checks should not only correct mistakes but keep them from happening in the first place. 460 kids in foster care should have never been a reasonable option.

    Don’t be a bit surprised if allegations of foster care abuse comes out of this chinese fuck story. You may ask “Why would J sub D say that?”

    I’m TLTG, but you can start your own research here.

    It’s for the children. The road to hell …
    Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m well aware that abusive, neglectful and unfit parents are out there. I readily concede that state intervention is sometimes required. My position is that the CPS system is out of control with NO accountability for the state actors. I’m starting to have doubts that they prevent more harm than they cause.

    I wish foster care abuses had it’s own Radley Balko.

  56. The solution to bad spawn is more spawn, my friend.

    To defeat the enemy, you must become the enemy.

  57. All right Tonio, I guess I hurt your feelings.

    I submit that you don’t know a damn thing about me except one for sure: I have never called anybody “Mormon fundie extremist spawn”. Especially not some child. I would be ashamed if I did!
    And you suggest I should emulate someone who did just that? Speaks volumes about you, but not me.

  58. If there is evidence of abuse, why have no charges been filed or arrests made?

    BINGO!

    15 women (not underage girls)were taken into custody by the State simply because they looked youngish and had or were going to have children. no allegations of abuse were made against them or their spouses.

    How any libertarian could justify rounding up an entire communities wives mothers and children (boys and girls) based on a phone call made by one girl (who turned aout to be a hoaxer) about one abuser (a husband who it turns out doesn’t exist) i don’t understand.

    When they round up your kids, they’ll have a good enough excuse for the press as well.

    “well there were anonymous allegations made a cousin of the mayor’s wife’s neighbor, who incidentally we can not produce at the moment, that there might have been a 13 year old smoking a joint, so of course we quarantined the entire town and took everyone’s DNA in for analysis….”

  59. I have never called anybody “Mormon fundie extremist spawn”

    Everyone has their failings.

  60. A month or so in foster care is sure as hell not going to help anyone who is not in danger of being beaten, raped or killed.

  61. Based on the fact that they are holding 460 hostages, a no-knock warrant at the CPS HQ in Austin would be appropriate.

  62. I am very curious about how the teenage children were held? In Cells?

    I am certain that if this happened to me as a teenager, I would have escaped, made a call, got money wired to me, and took a bus to anout-of-state relative’s house.

  63. “Mormon Fundie Extremist Spawn” may not be the most delicate way to describe these children, but it is pretty damn accurate. Lets see, the name of their church justifies “Mormon fundie” (Fundamentalist is the first word in its name). They are among the more extreme Mormon groups, so “extremist” seem fair enough. “Spawn” makes me thing of fish more than Mormon fundie extremists, but is technically an accurate way to describe these children.

  64. A month or so in foster care is sure as hell not going to help anyone who is not in danger of being beaten, raped or killed.

    On the other hand it might help them get beaten, raped or killed.

  65. I’m amazed the court didn’t mention something about the first and fourteenth amendments. The state was essentially claiming that it could deprive people of legal custody because of religious beliefs.

  66. And just theoretically, could the state pass a law taking all children from a certain religion to crush it?

  67. Martin, Martin, Martin,

    I submit that you don’t know a damn thing about me except one for sure: I have never called anybody “Mormon fundie extremist spawn”.

    Sorry, but I don’t actually know that about you, only that you haven’t posted that in this thread using the name Martin. Strict rules of evidence, and all.

    I would be ashamed if I did!
    And you suggest I should emulate someone who did just that? Speaks volumes about you, but not me.

    Duly noted. [yawn]

  68. I have never called anybody “Mormon fundie extremist spawn”. Especially not some child

    Could have been written more clearly, but I would have interpreted this as:

    spawn of extremist, fundamentalist Mormans

    The adjectives modify Mormans, not spawn.

  69. I am very curious about how the teenage children were held? In Cells?

    Tenderly

  70. Unbelievable! There are actually non-bigotted, honest judges on the Texas appelate court! Unforntuately, there don’t appear to be on the trial level or in CPS.

  71. A poster writes: “and there was some evidence of bona fide abuse which would be cause for significant concern.”

    What evidence?

    For those who have not been following the case:

    1. The 16 year old abused FLDS wife who made the original phone call turns out to be a 33 year old Colorado woman with no connection to the FLDS outsider her own imagination and a history of bogus phone calls.

    2. The Child Protective Service asserted that out of 53 women age 14-17, 32 were pregnant or mothers. According to the court, the actual number is 5. Given what is known about their ages, it is entirely possible that all five were legally married when they conceived.

    3. The Child Protection Service asserted that X-ray’s of fractures provided evidence of abuse. The number of children with fractures was slightly under ten percent of the total number in their custody–almost certainly below the average fraction of children to have at some point broken a bone.

    Is it really credible that, if a quarter of the allegations made against the FLDS were true, the CPS, with all of the children in their custody for six weeks, wouldn’t have been able to find at least a little evidence to support them?

    When the case started I assumed that the FLDS really did engage in a fair amount of illegal sex with underage girls. On the evidence so far available, there is no reason to think it is any more common than with people who aren’t FLDS.

  72. I find it utterly hilarious that half this thread has been spent by people trying to parse my “Mormon fundie extremist spawn” so as to determine whether it is offensive, whether it should be offensive, and whether anyone should give a damn one way or the other.

    Just to make doubly, espeically, completely clear, I have no huge problem with the Church of LDS. I *do* have a problem with extremism of most sorts. When a child is brought up in a secluded compound and taught nothing but an extreme and rarefied brand of what their parents believe, *and nothing else*, I do not believe it to be unfair to call them “spawn”; that after all is clearly what their parents intend them to be (else, why seclude them?).

    Sure, it was insensitive, but then again (as many around here have noted) people are generally oversensitive when it comes to calling a thing what it is, and so I see no need to massage that which is repugnant to me to soothe those who identify with it and so might take offense.

    p.s. Reinmoose, I never have, and hopefully never will have any sort of power over who can procreate, but I wasn’t making a normative statement in any case, only an observation. That is, I wasn’t saying “someone ought to stop those Mormons from breeding”, only that the world did not *need* any more right-field fundies, e.g. the world would not be *improved* by their introduction. I am certainly entitled to an opinion about the state of the world and what may or may not improve its condition over the long run, aren’t I? 🙂

  73. But I find myself inexplicably optimistic from time to time as well.

    Just wait. Radley will take care of that for ya.

    Just talked to one of the lawyers involved in this – he said that all the hearings scheduled for the next couple of weeks have been cancelled. He wasn’t sure yet what was going to be done in terms of unwinding some or all of this mess.

    I am very curious about how the teenage children were held? In Cells?

    Nope. In barracks at Fort Concho, a very scenic frontier fort on the banks of the Concho River in downtown San Angelo.

  74. anyone who agree’s with this ruling is a pedo bear

  75. Just wait. Radley will take care of that for ya.

    Yeah! I just can’t wait for my optimism to be kicked in the teeth again. What will it be this time? Drug War? Police harassment? It’s hard to predict in this day and age.

  76. Neu,

    Evidence that the system works to correct errors.

    Your concept of “error” is creepy, to say the least. This was a knowingly and blatant violation of people’s rights, from the beginning. Such “errors” would not be committed had the CPS officials at least a modicum of decency and knowledge of Constitutional law. Instead they acted the same way as thugs, with tactics akin to the Geheime Staatspolizei.

  77. How any libertarian could justify rounding up an entire communities wives mothers and children (boys and girls) based on a phone call made by one girl (who turned aout to be a hoaxer) about one abuser (a husband who it turns out doesn’t exist) i don’t understand.

    I am a Libertarian, and I did not justify it from the very beginning, at all. There was certainly something odd about the massive taking of children, the way the investigation was done and how police made use of military tactics and quasi-military vehicles to enter the “compound” (or rather, the measly ranch). Looked immediately like typical bureaucratic overreaction.

  78. anyone who agree’s with this ruling is a pedo bear

    NSFW!

  79. Francisco Torres,

    Your concept of “error” is creepy, to say the least. This was a knowingly and blatant violation of people’s rights, from the beginning.

    Your concept of the meaning of the word “error” seems shaky.

    Let’s go with American Heritage:

    er?ror Audio Help (?r’?r) Pronunciation Key
    n.

    1. An act, assertion, or belief that unintentionally deviates from what is correct, right, or true.
    2. The condition of having incorrect or false knowledge.
    3. The act or an instance of deviating from an accepted code of behavior.
    4. A mistake….

    You may think that the word “error” is restricted to 1 & 2 above, but I was thinking more along the lines of 3 & 4.

  80. FWIW,

    I am sure RC Dean could school Francisco on the various legal “errors” and might be able to give a more precise name to the error committed here.

    Manifest error?
    Plain error?

    I ain’t no lawyer, so I ain’t sure.

  81. Francisco

    Such “errors” would not be committed had the CPS officials at least a modicum of decency and knowledge of Constitutional law.

    You are speaking as if the CPS was operationally in charge of the raid. They were not the ones with the guns. The execution of the raid was a police operation. CPS may have set the ball rolling, but there were many in law enforcement that needed to cooperate for this to occur in the way that it occurred. I am sure somewhere along the way someone with knowledge of constitutional law was involved.

    This case highlights the need for disinterested oversight, checks and balances, and robust and independent judicial review…the fact that all of those were built into the system, and played a role in the current outcome show the difference between the system in place in Texas and the “Geheime Staatspolizei.”

    Looked immediately like typical bureaucratic overreaction.

    overreaction, sure, but typical, nah…I would say this was atypical.

  82. I am sure RC Dean could school Francisco on the various legal “errors” and might be able to give a more precise name to the error committed here.

    Glad to oblige:

    Click

    and

    Learn!

    The technical legal term for the type of error committed by CPS and the local courts is “clusterfuck”, BTW.

  83. or the part where I shit all over ideological extremism?

    Oh the irony…

  84. How does one aim turds at oneself by the way, or do you just get them all over your hands while trying to throw them at others?

  85. In what way am I an extremist, UM?

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