The Friday Political Thread: As Serious as Hillary Clinton on Energy Policy Edition

Unconvincing Quote of the Week
"Another McCain story, somewhat better known, is about the Vietnamese practice of torturing him by tying his head between his ankles with his arms behind him, and then leaving him for hours." - Karl Rove (caught by Jon Chait) reversing, oh, 10,000,000 words of White House blather about what is and isn't torture. Pay attention, kids, if you want to become America's #1 pundit.

The Week in Brief
- The phrase "throw under the bus" jumped the shark as Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright took turns betraying one another.
- Ron Paul's new book hit the shelves and hit #1 on Amazon's bestseller list.
- Hillary Clinton and John McCain came out swinging for the deeply silly "gas tax holiday."
- McCain rolled out his health care plan, but Jeremiah Wright had no comment so it got ignored.

Below the Fold
- Bob Tyrrell, who has his own motives, mourns for the post-racial, 2007-vintage Barack Obama (cudgeled by the Clintons).
- Peggy Noonan defends Obama, too.
- Hugh Hewitt, no longer so concerned about "religious tests" now that Mitt Romney's hit the mulch pile, has a list of religious questions for Obama.
- Daniel Larison disagrees with me.

Ladies and gentleman, Rick Wakeman!

SATURDAY UPDATE: Two pieces of news.

- Libertarian Party Executive Director Shane Cory has left the LP after a stupid controversy over the party weighing (not subtly) in over the Mary Ruwart story.

- Democrats seized a Republican House seat in Lousiana: Once-promising Republican Woody Jenkins is probably done with politics. A side note: Black state Rep. Mike Jackson lost the Democratic primary to white Democrat Don Cazayoux, then grumpily promised to run in November as an independent. His thinking is that the 35 percent black district could go his way in a three-way race with Barack Obama on the ballot. To drive down turnout in Baton Rouge, he ran a TV ad telling voters not to worry, he'd run again, implying that they could stay home this time. It might have shaved a few points off the total, but the white Dem won anyway. That's got to be comforting to Democrats who worry about the aftershocks if they cudgel Obama.

Comments

[The Democratic Republican]

Alright -- it's time to hear some more about why Weigel hates Great Leaders because he did not ADAMANTLY encourage us to go buy Great Leader's book.

Your donations were not enough. You must send the establishment a message by being Great Leader's Manifesto (or, at least, this is what his last campaign email said).

[The Democratic Republican]

sorry about all the typos...

*being=buying

[Next: Reason will pay you to r]

1. They'll buy his books, make an endless string of useless videos, and even hang signs on freeway overpasses. But, so far not a single Ron Paul supporter has been able to figure out that in order for him to succeed his opponents have to be reduced in popularity. The way to do that is to go to campaign events and ask real questions, then upload the responses to video sites. Even wee lassies can do it (youtube.com/watch?v=9KSzu_lgaX8) - and loony liberals can do it but ask foolish questions - but RP's supporters don't have the necessary "fortitude", if you know what I mean.

2. I think an aide to the Speaker of the CaliforniaAssembly hung up on me. Maybe Reason could find out what I wanted to know. Just kidding.

3. Google wants to put on a PresidentialDebate. If Reason were truly interested in policy and weren't just a source of establishment hackery, they'd try to put on their own debate. In fact, Reason could spend $10,000 (or much less) and put on real debates.

4. Happy Belated EarthDay to all prog sufferers!

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Look, you guys who are looking for "principles" among the right wing are looking in the wrong place indeed. It's not "practice x which involves y and z is torture and wrong" it is "my team does x" which makes it right and "the other team does x" which makes it wrong. There are no "neutral principles" on the right, there are either the "right team" or the "wrong team." Conservatism=tribalism, to put it in language everyone can understand...

[Brandybuck]

Journey to the Center of the Earth! How appropriate...

[J sub D]

Re:The most influential US political pundits: 10-1

Why is David Weigel not on this list?

[MK2]

Because he's an idiot?

[J sub D]

Look, you guys who are looking for "principles" among the right wing are looking in the wrong place indeed.

Agreed. Maybe we should look to the Democratic party. Oh darn! There's this minority vote supression attempt thingee going on down in N.C. Seems the Clinton family friends are heavily involved. Shocking that the left is as bereft as the right when it comes to principles, isn't it MNG?

The GOP and the Democratic party are both filled wuth self serving, amoral, power hungry, soulless assholes. Vote third party. Even if it's the Greens.

[Edward]

From Ron Paul's race-baiting newsletters, I'd say that being a libertarian is incompatible with being a racist in the same way that being a Catholic priest is incompatible with being a child molester.

[MK2]

Third parties are filled with self serving, amoral, power hungry, soulless, INCOMPETENT assholes.

[Vlad Drac]

Edward: Let me use your face to wipe it off.

[The Democratic Republican]

Episiarch -- in case you come by this thread, wanted to apologize for being a prick this morning. My humor program had, indeed, not booted yet.

MK2 -- Different than the two parties how?

[The Democratic Republican]

MK2 -- I guess what I mean is: the two parties are hugely incompetent all of the time. They just happen to be able to stack the deck in their favor.

[prolefeed]

What an awful prog song. Perhaps Neu Mejican can come up with something more interesting (great pick last time with Metal Urbain's "Creve Salope", NM).

[J sub D]

MK2 meet Edward.
Edward, MK2.
Here's a Href="http://www.fatcitytattoo.com/vaseline.jpg">present for you two. Why don't you two go get a room somewhere..

[MK2]

J sub D

Kiss our ass.

[J sub D]

MK2 that's what Eddie's here for. Y'know the playful foreplay that you two enjoy prior to culminating your encounter in hot, sweaty, breatless, trolling.

[highnumber]

psst! MK2 is Edward is...

[J sub D]

psst! MK2 is Edward is...

mentally unbalanced with sexual identity issues? I know.

[Chris Potter]

LoneWacko,

How many videos of McCain answering your ImmigrationQuestions have you uploaded?

[Chris Potter]

If Ron Paul had vanished from public view, he'd be accused of squandering the momentum of the rLOVEution.

But now that he's keeping in the public eye by releasing a book, he's an egomaniacal con man.

Look, he and his campaign both made a lot of mistakes. The newsletter scandal wasn't handled properly, and the fact that he lent his name out without keeping an eye on what was printed under it was a serious misjudgement on his part. But looking at the way he's lived his life and served his ten terms in the House, it's simply not plausible it was all just a sham so that he could pocket $4M and make money from book sales at the age of 72.

[Elemenope]

Peggy Noonan has oodles of class.

Though I disagree with her (insofar as nothing I heard from Wright sounded remotely radical to me), I think that she has put her finger on how important it is to not treat every new and scary thing as an existential threat, and instead treat it as part of the ongoing social conversation.

Like she says, she lived through Malcolm X and Stokely Carmichael (men of *real* radicalism), and the country met their ideas and survived. Next to that, it is hard to get a rise out of something like Wright's sermons.

What I do think she missed that will become more and more into the spotlight (though probably not much in the political arena) is how far the black church and the white church have grown apart. This whole mess has been something of a coming out party for the uniquely sharp and unapologetically (sometimes apoplectically) critical traditions of black preaching. It's been hiding under a thick scab for a long time, and the average American churchgoer by-and-large was unaware of its character and methods until now.

How Christian America confronts what these two traditions mean and how they interact is going to be very important for the dialogue over social issues that are near and dear to many Americans.

----------

Damn, gonna have to scrape some cash together for the Ron Paul book.

[Elemenope]

And yet . . . it doesn't get my blood up. It doesn't hurt my heart. It doesn't make me feel I need to defend my country. Because I don't see it as attacked, only criticized in a way that is not persuasive.

Mr. Wright seems to me to be part of the great "barbaric yawp," as Walt Whitman called the American people fighting, discussing, making things and living. I like the barbaric yawp. I don't enjoy it when it makes me wince, but at least when I am wincing, I know the yawp is working.

Oh, and Neil, Edward, Donderoooooo, and that guy who uncleverly named himself after a DC subway line, you might learn something about proportion from the last two paragraphs there.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"There's this minority vote supression attempt thingee going on down in N.C. Seems the Clinton family friends are heavily involved."

What's that about? I honestly don't know (too busy at work lately to watch the news, and when I do it's just Jeremiah Wright).

J Sub D, the only thing more tiresome than a leftist is a rightist. They are both terrible...But my point is that I really think the right lately has become more tribalist. They tend to ask two questions: Is the person in question American? (if yes, then support whatever). Is the person in question Christian? (if yes, then support whatever). Of course, the left is full of bullcrap identity politics as well...But I really think when put to the test the left will adhere to principles more.

[J sub D]

Chris Potter,

I supported him, voted for him, donated to him, was disappointed by him, and all the time realized that he was neither a saint not a demon. He did bring a lot of attention to some libertarian positions. RP is still alright in my book.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Have any of you ever read James Joyce Ulyssess? It's not exactly a page turner, but it is a neat book. Anyways, one thing I took from it was Joyce's take on the strange effects on Irish worldviews from being a "subjugated people." They had some strange ideas, but made understandable (if not acceptable) given their history of oppression.

That's how I understand the black community today. Wright is nuts, completely and utterly nuts. Understandably nuts maybe, but nuts nonetheless. And the Dems are fools for not seeing that this nuttiness is prevalent there.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"RP is still alright in my book."
I didn't support him, donated nothing to him, and would vote for him only if ordered to by a man holding a gun. But still, how can you not find the guy admirable? He has a consistent (if looney) worldview and the courage to articulate it. That is REALLY rare these days. Props to that guy, props times ten.

[Edward]

"He has a consistent (if looney) worldview and the courage to articulate it. That is REALLY rare these days."

Not in mental institutions.

[Chris Potter]

I think a lot of the libertarian Ron Paul bashing is coming from people who wanted him to succeed and are disappointed and bitter, as well as the hard-line cosmotarians who hated him from the start. It's just ludicrous to think the guy has been plotting to steal campaign money and get a book deal since 1976, but that belief has been vocalized many a time here and elswhere.

[Gene Trosper]

Journey to The Center of The Earth is one of my all time favorite albums!

[bside]

I'd like to thank Rick Wakeman.

For being such a pretentious, bloated, theatrical asshole with his 20 minute synth solos in ballparks and all white fringe cape that he spurred a bunch of angry suburban kids to pick up guitars and invent punk rock, and reinvent the two minute pop song. Thank you Rick Wakeman, the world owes you one.

[Elemenope]

Wright is nuts, completely and utterly nuts. Understandably nuts maybe, but nuts nonetheless. And the Dems are fools for not seeing that this nuttiness is prevalent there.
?

On what particular point is he nuts?

The only one on which I can see him being *factually* nuts is the whole "US Gov. made HIV" thing. And while that is indeed a silly claim, what is not silly is the fact that by ignoring early warning signs, repressing medical research and starving it for funding, and deliberately propagating misinformation about the efficacy of condoms, the US government created epidemic conditions where none needed to exist, and in many places still refuses to change course and make decisions that would unarguably reduce HIV infection rates, both here and worldwide.

As Cornell West (who is *not* a 9/11 truther) said about the 9/11 truthers a few months ago, it becomes hard not to impugn one's oppressors with great powers and diabolical plans when one is faced with the decisions of the past. Such as the Tuskegee experiments, or when the CIA (admittedly!) sold crack in the inner cities to fund some of its other clandestine operations.

At one time (in the very recent past), it was in vogue and a common canard to make fun of *those* beliefs, that the US would do such things as the ravings of paranoia. When it comes out that some paranoid fantasies are no fantasy at all, what damage does that do, psychologically? If a ruling group can create policies like those, what *can't* they do?

Particularly in viewing that, Mr. Wright is remarkably restrained; he certainly is no Malcolm X! He certainly isn't *well-behaved*, and he certainly *is* impolitic. If that's your synonym for nuts, then there's something wrong here. As Peggy Noonan wrote, you can't know the thing is working until it makes you uncomfortable.

[Neil]

Winners this week: Op Chaos because people are STILL talking about Rev. Wright!

[Elemenope]

Neil, are you less of a man than Peggy Noonan?

Seems so.

[Neil]

Keep talking about about it Elemenope! Make your voice heard! All Wright all the time!

[Elemenope]

[Sigh.]

[Mumble]Matthew 7:6[grumble]

[Double sigh]

Occasionally there are men who test my optimism and faith in the species. Neil, you are getting there.

[joe]

I second that emotion.

Keep talking about Neil not being a man.

[Neil]

Its the weekend before a major primary day, and what are we talking about? Rev. Wright.

Hillary and McCain must be smiling "wright" now.LOL

[Hat Pines]

How do our candidates plan to deal with Peak Oil ?

[Elemenope]

(Unfortunately playing into Neil's scabrous hands)

Why do we feel it necessary to condemn Wright like he's the frankenchild of Johnathan Edwards, Marcus Garvey, and David Duke?

The shrillness does not befit the issue.

[Neil]

Whats that sound? Is it the sound of Obama losing all mainstream support? Why, I believe it is!

[joe]

Hillary's superdelegate lead is below 20 for the first time.

[joe]

Ha!

[Lefty]

Could the selection of the demigod Rick Wakeman mean that Keith Emerson is around the corner for a politics & prog thread? Let's hope so.

[Neil]

Good Joe! Nominate a proven loser who has difficulty closing a deal Then the fun will start. Beating Hillary was the easy part for your boy.

[Kolohe]

Hat pines-

1998 called. It wants its web layout back.

[joe]

Uh, yeah, beating Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Primary is easy.

That's why the Republicans spent a year assuring everyone that she was certain to be the Democratic nominee; because of how easy it is to beat her.

Barack Obama : Boston Red Sox

Hillary Clinton : Cleveland Indians

John McCain : Colorado Rockies.

It think it's just great that the Rockies won the pennant. They should be proud of themselves. But the real contest, with the two best teams in baseball, was in the ALCS.

[Kolohe]

to your credit H-P, you did learn how to link.

[Neil]

Of course its not easy Joe. Obama has in fact had a great deal of trouble with her and still can't seem to close the deal.

But its peanuts compared to what going up McCain will be like.

[joe]

So you keep saying, Neil.

But McCain is a much less skilled politician than Hillary Clinton. He's less popular among general election voters than Hillary was among Democrats, going into the race. She had a huge financial, name recognition, and organizational advantage over Obama, while Obama leads McCain in all of those measures. She started 40 or so points ahead of him, while Obama is currently more or less even with McCain.

But, sure, beating her in the primary is an easier task than beating him in the general.

That makes perfect sense.

[Neil]

Skilled politican? Obama is good at making empty-headed speeches in front of huge, large rock star crowds. Thats his schtick, thats what hes good at, but thats about it.

Whenever hes called on his stuff, Obama melts under pressure. Lots of "uhs" and "ohs" and "ums".

Hes HORRIBLE in debates, and McCain will take him to school one-on-one.

[Calidore]

Elemenope,

Haven't the black and white churches been apart since well, the initial birth of the black church in the 18th century? And certainly since the advent of Reconstruction?

[Bingo]

Boobies.

[Eric Dondero]

You all! London England just elected a "libertarian" as Mayor.

The guy is a part-time comedian and member of the Tory Party. He has repeatedly called himself a "libertarian" who doesn't want the government meddling in people's lives.

Just breaking over the net news...

Photo of him at Libertarian Republican blog.

[Paul F.]

This row of comments tells me that far too many people are very narrow minded. I'm just an average Joe, but even I can see that McCain, Obama or Hillary is just more of the same. I fail to see any kooky or irrational ideals expresed by Dr. Ron Paul. Please read his new book before posting unfounded remarks that you will later regret. Our lives, this great country and your childrens futures needs his experiance and insight. See ya in the food line.

[Get paid to read Reason!]

Chris Potter inquires: How many videos of McCain answering your ImmigrationQuestions have you uploaded?

I know what you're getting at! And, of course, it's a LogicalFallacy in and of itself, but it's also ironic considering this, this, this, and all these. Why, back in the day, Reason's own editor even highlighted one of my pics from the last on his website. That made me so very proud, but not so much as the time that Sully - yes, Sully - did the same.

And, if I'm unfortunately unable to "do the MLM thing" and get others to do it, I'm going to have to hit the road and ask McCain et al the questions myself. Unlike every Ron Paul supporter, I know what to ask, how to ask it, and I'm not afraid to ask it.

[Elemenope]

Elemenope,

Haven't the black and white churches been apart since well, the initial birth of the black church in the 18th century? And certainly since the advent of Reconstruction?

Their congregations certainly have been (I think he called it the most segregated morning of the week). What I was referring to was divergence in their practices and traditions, which undoubtedly occurred over time, and led to the present gulf.

Wright talked about that in the context of music on Moyers, about how the tension between traditional hymns and local musical traditions resolved in fits and starts.

[Eric Dondero]

Fox News just confirmed that Libertarian Boris Johnson has WON THE ELECTION AS MAYOR OF LONDON!!

It's official. Johnson beat Far Leftist Ken Livingston. Johnson is a part-time comedian, anti-Political Correctness crusader, and a self-described "libertarian."

He's also a "cultural libertarian" with a messy hair-do and a beat-up old bicycle that he rides daily to Parliament.

This is huge news. I cannot believe Reason.com missed it.

Full story at Libertarian Republican blog.

[LevStrauss]

In other news the DC Madam got fucking murdered today. It's not vulgar to say it when it is obvious. Don't you feel insulted when they don't even try?

Got motive?

[Ali]

Eric, They're not called libertarians in England. They're called, to your utter disappointment, liberals.

[Ali]

Oh, now that I got a chance to read the news re garding London's mayor, the new guy is a "Mainstream Conservative" and not a bit libertarian.

[Ali]

I haven't been following Ron Paul's campaign other than the fact that I received his book in the mail, which I had pre-ordered way back when it was announced. Just came across this interview with Blitzer. Very good showing indeed. The book is good.

[Guy Montag]

Sorry for only lookig at the first 10 post and not noticing this, if anybody else mentioned it.

"Another McCain story, somewhat better known, is about the Vietnamese practice of torturing him by tying his head between his ankles with his arms behind him, and then leaving him for hours." - Karl Rove

Mr. Weigel, are you attempting to equate this real torture with the discomfort of waterboarding? It is okay here, you can admit or deny.

If not, fine, and I don't see your point. If yes, fine and it is a pointless point.

[Guy Montag]

In other news the DC Madam got fucking murdered committed suicide, unless you are a conspiracy freak, today.

Fixed.

[jacksmith]

MY FELLOW "BITTER", STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE 🙂

If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just a bunch of "BITTER"!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON FODDER. 🙁

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary's than they had ever been before or since.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. 🙂

Best regards

jacksmith... Working Class 🙂

p.s. You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you don't know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering...

You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of you each year. 🙂

Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another 120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don't die from. And I could go on, and on...

OBAMA AIDE: "WORKING-CLASS VOTERS NOT KEY FOR DEMOCRATS" 😮

DEBATE! DEBATE!! DEBATE!!!...

[jacksmith]

DEBATE! DEBATE!! DEBATE!!!

It's time for everyone to face the truth. Barack Obama has no real chance of winning the national election in November at this time. His crushing defeat in Pennsylvania makes that fact crystal clear. His best, and only real chance of winning in November is on a ticket with Hillary Clinton as her VP.

Hillary Clinton seemed almost somber at her Pennsylvania victory speech. As if part of her was hoping Obama could have proved he had some chance of winning against the republican attack machine, and their unlimited money, and resources.

But it is absolutely essential that the democrats take back the Whitehouse in November. America, and the American people are in a very desperate condition now. And the whole World has been doing all that they can to help keep us propped up.

Hillary Clinton say's that the heat, and decisions in the Whitehouse are much tougher than the ones on the campaign trail. But I think Mr. Obama faces a test of whether he has what it takes to be a commander and chief by facing the difficult facts, and the truth before him. And by doing what is best for the American people by dropping out of the race, and offering his whole hearted assistance to Hillary Clinton to help her take back the Whitehouse for the American people, and the World.

Mr. Obama is a great speaker. And I am confident he can explain to the American people the need, and wisdom of such a personal sacrifice for them. It should be clear to everyone by now that Hillary Clinton is fighting her heart out for the American people. She has known for a long time that Mr. Obama can not win this November. You have to remember that the Clinton's have won the Whitehouse twice before. They know what it takes.

If Mr. Obama fails his test of commander and chief we can only hope that Hillary Clinton can continue her heroic fight for the American people. And that she prevails. She will need all the continual support and help we can give her. She may fight like a superhuman. But she is only human.

Sen. Hillary Clinton: "You know, more people have now voted for me than have voted for my opponent. In fact, I now have more votes than anybody has ever had in a primary contest for a nomination. And it's also clear that we've got nine more important contests to go."

Sincerely

Jacksmith... Working Class 🙂

[Pax]

Psst... jacksmith.. most of us here don't see profits as something evil. I don't think your argument suits the audience.

[Eric Garris]

Eric Dondero is known for calling almost anyone a libertarian, but usually makes the condition that the person be pro-war.

Unfortunately for Dondero, Boris Johnson frequently appears on Antiwar.com with his fiercely antiwar articles.
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/05/02/london-trades-antiwar-rightist-for-antiwar-leftist/

Boris regularly touted Antiwar.com and LewRockwell.com when he was the editor of the British Spectator a few years ago.

[Max]

Ron Paul has endoresed Barack Obama.

[Elemenope]

Ron Paul has endorsed Barack Obama.

Saying "He isn't quite as shitty-shitty on foreign policy as the other two" is not quite an endorsement.

Also, the really big clue was him saying "this is not an endorsement" during the interview.

[Les]

On what particular point is he nuts?

I think he acts nuts, mostly. And is there any real evidence that African brains work differently than Caucasian brains in the way he described (or at all)? I could be wrong, but that sounds a little nuts to me.

Also, I think saying that attacking him is really attacking the Black Church is pretty narcissistic, which is kind of nuts.

But he's not Pat Robertson-nuts or John Hagee-nuts by any stretch. Those guys are fucking nuts.

[The Treachery of Politicians]

This is not an endorsement.

[Neu Mejican]

What an awful prog song. Perhaps Neu Mejican can come up with something more interesting (great pick last time with Metal Urbain's "Creve Salope", NM).

Glad you liked it.

How's about some dope afrofunk this week.

No video, just a kick-ass mix (about an hour)
http://analogafrica.cybsys.net/mp3/AnalogAfricaSelectionNo1.mp3

From Analog Africa...
http://www.analogafrica.blogspot.com/

Buy their products.

[Senor StuffMyButt]

How much fun is it to watch Ron Paul's book sales knock down, kick, stop, and piss on those of wee Matt Yglesias? Step off, Yglesias, and take a lesson from someone who been in the game.

Heads in the Sand? Or book sales in the dirt? I'm lovin' this. In fact, my left and right testicles have copulated within my scrotum and given birth to a third testicle. Yes, it's the first time something like this has happened in the human race. It's history. As jigga would say, "I know you can feel the magic, baby!"

[Bill Clinton]

If you people don't get out and vote! That Nigg*r is going to be president!

[Eric Dondero]

Eric Garris has apparently now joined the Anti-Islamo-Fascist Coalition. Boris Johnson is being harshly criticized this morning by the entire Muslim community and press in England for being a harsh critic of repressive Islamic culture.

The London Telegraph's Muslim reporter took him to task. (see it at LR blog - click on link above).

Johnson is a Geert Wilders style Euro-libertarian. Yes, like many of us Pro-Defense libertarians who often scratch our heads at Bush's light-handed approach to fighting the rise of worldwide Islamic Radicalism, Johnson has also been a Bush critic.

But very ironic to see that Eric Garris, has now joined with Johnson, and Pro-Defense libertarians by acknowledging the threat Islamic Radicalism poses to the UK and the USA.

Welcome to the club Mr. Garris!

[Eric Dondero]

Ali, do a Google search on Boris Johnson "libertarian". You'll get tons of info, including him calling himself a "libertarian," and the distinguished Art Critic of the London Telegraph recently saying that he's voting for Boris cause "he's a libertarian."

[Eric Dondero]

What's truly amazing here, is that Reason.com completely missed this story: Johnson's win of the Mayorship in London.

Watch Reason now have an article or H&R blurb about it today or tomorrow.

The NY Times is no doubt seething cause Fox News broke the story late yesterday, fully 12 hours before the NYT.

The only libertarian media to catch this story late yesterday was Libertarian Republican blog.

Watch all the Johnny Come Latelys now well, umm, "Come late" to the Johnson election story.

[Episiarch]

Hillary and McCain must be smiling "wright" now.LOL

Whats that sound? Is it the sound of Obama losing all mainstream support? Why, I believe it is!

This. Is. Priceless. Whoever is behind Neil, you have topped yourself. Bravo.

Oh, and DONDERROOOOOOOOO

[Fluffy]

What's truly amazing here, is that Reason.com completely missed this story: Johnson's win of the Mayorship in London.

Eric, why are you so stupid?

They had an H&R item about it before it was even officially called.

I think this is maybe the third or fourth time you have appeared and demanded to know why Reason wasn't covering a topic they had covered 12 hours before.

Can you actually try to read the site before making these demands? Thanks.

I read the Hugh Hewitt link, and I read a great part of the rest of Hewitt's work, and I think to myself:

GOP = Hugh Hewitt
'Rats = Glenn Greenwald

As a sometime Republican, this is really shameful to me.

[Izzy]

They had an H&R item about it before it was even officially called.

William Burroughs predicted this in The Soft Machine:

"so I am sent to Washington to learn how this writing the news before it happens is done"

Is Reason the Trak News Agency?

[Neil]

Its good that Londoners have a elected a real conservative that will be determined to root out not only islamofascists, but also islamosymps (or "dhimmis").

[Elemenope]

Its good that Londoners have a elected a real conservative that will be determined to root out not only islamofascists, but also islamosymps (or "dhimmis").

Good point, Neil. We should round up all the Christians and Jews in camps, too. After all, they all worship the same God. How trustworthy can they be?

[J sub D]

From this morning's NY Times.
Nevada to Ask Fossett Widow to Reimburse It

If I were advising Widow Fosset I'd strongly recommend that she decline. If the state wants to piss away a shitload of taxpayer cash to search for an egomaniac who deliberately puts his own life in danger to garner headlines, they can answer to the voters for it.

While I won't cheer anybody's death who isn't downright evil, I will be grateful that Fosset's incosequential exploits will no longer be cluttering up newspapers and the electromagnetic spectrum.

[Libertreee]

Blazing Stretch Limos! The new President is a nnnnn'ger!

Tell Weigel Lew Rockwell posted this.

Obama will win because Bugs Bunny always beats Daffy Duck! After the Steponallofus debate fiasco, the next day he stood up on TV and shrugged and wiped the debate off his shoulder like old lint!

What a Bugs Bunny move that was! Even Steponallofus had to acknowledge it was cool!

Hillary and McCain are both Daffy Ducks! Spitting exasperated pretending to be cool when churning inside Daffy Ducks!

Ron Paul is a Bugs Bunny and if McCain implodes completely he could still take the nomination...a long shot, but remotely possilbe.

But Hillary and McCain are toast. Obama will gracefully ascend to the White House.

This is not an endorsement. Just a prediction

[P Brooks]

This WaPo piece is definitely worth a read.

The first impulse when the subject of supporting the troops comes up is either to have more troops (!) or spend more money. This is the stance of all three presidential candidates, by the way. No one is saying: Where the hell does the half a trillion dollars we spend every year on defense go? Not even anyone in Congress seems to be that alarmed that we could be so incompetent or wasteful or inattentive that hospitals and barracks could, in this day and age, be "appalling."

[P Brooks]

huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering...

Holy sockpuppet, Batman!

JackOffSmith is John Edwards!

[Episiarch]

Its good that Londoners have a elected a real conservative that will be determined to root out not only islamofascists, but also islamosymps (or "dhimmis").

About time you came up with a new term. "Comsymp", while great, was getting old.

[Steven Druckenmiller]

Yes, like many of us Pro-Defense libertarians who often scratch our heads at Bush's light-handed approach to fighting the rise of worldwide Islamic Radicalism

Of course, because of cheerleaders and fanbois of war such as yourself, we went after an enemy (Saddam's Iraq) that had nothing to do with Islamic Radicalism.

Bush's approach isn't light-handed, it's ham-handed. It boggles my mind that you call yourself "libertarian" while support trillion-dollar wars of choice against innocent* third-parties.

* - Innocent in terms of 9/11, the event that defined who are enemies are.

[Ayn_Randian]

Oh, Eric, you'll note I confronted you using my real name, though I doubt you have the intelligence or the cojones to actually respond.

[Max]

Okay, it's not an endorsement, but won't Ron Paul's saying something positive about Obama send many of his ditto-heads to the polls to vote for him?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

""Another McCain story, somewhat better known, is about the Vietnamese practice of torturing him by tying his head between his ankles with his arms behind him, and then leaving him for hours." - Karl Rove

Mr. Weigel, are you attempting to equate this real torture with the discomfort of waterboarding? It is okay here, you can admit or deny."

Guy, I can't speak for Weigel, but he could have been getting at the "stress positions" that are part of our "enhanced interrogation" techniques, which Rove and his buddies OK'ed.
You've heard of this, no?

[Chris Potter]

MNG,

You are correct. I believe the administration defined torture as producing long-term physical or mental harm, which neatly excludes the officially sanctioned techniques (well, at least those we know of). Under that definition the techniques Rove mentioned are not torture.

[Chris Potter]

Ugh, reading the article again, I notice that Mr Chait did some sneaky quote-cutting:

Another McCain story, somewhat better known, is about the Vietnamese practice of torturing him by tying his head between his ankles with his arms behind him, and then leaving him for hours. The torture so badly busted up his shoulders that to this day Mr. McCain can't raise his arms over his head.

Since it caused long-term damage, this is consistent with the administration's definition of torture, however slippery that definition is.

[Ayn_Randian]

It doesn't even pass the common-sense test to say that simulated drowning doesn't cause long-term mental damage. Has anyone here almost drowned? It's very traumatic to even think you're drowning or suffocating.

Guy, seriously, this kind of physical and mental abuse is not in the tradition of gentlemanly, decent conduct; it would be below me, as an Officer of the Government, to endorse it.

[Neil]

How bad can waterboarding be when a Fox News reporter volunteered to go through to process? Was he "tortured"?

[J sub D]

Guy, I can't speak for Weigel, but he could have been getting at the "stress positions" that are part of our "enhanced interrogation" techniques, which Rove and his buddies OK'ed.
You've heard of this, no?

He's heard of it. He may be smart enough to have recognized the rather obvious allusion. He will unlikely be honest enough to admit it.

[Ayn_Randian]

Neil - why don't you volunteer to go through and find out?

[Neil]

I'd have no problem going through it, and I Tall Dave and Guy Montag have said the same.

So was that Fox News reporter tortured Ayn Randian? Is he the victim of torture?

[J sub D]

Neil - why don't you volunteer to go through and find out?

With me, armed with immunity from prosecution, as the interrogator.

The interesting question is -
Neil, disingenuous lickspittle or just too stupid for words?

[Neil]

J Sub D was the Fox News reporter a victim of torture?

[J sub D]

No.

Neil, did the Fox news sycophant face anything like the suspects waterboarded by the CIA?

[Neil]

J Sub D he was waterboarded. Waterboarded. The thing leftists always whine about. He was strapped to a board, blindfolded, and had a sponged placed over his mouth as water was forcibly poured over his face and mouth.

He described it as "discomforting".

[J sub D]

Neil, while not answering the question I asked at 1:42pm, you inadvertently answered the one I asked at 1:36pm.

Disingenuous lickspittle it is.

[Ayn_Randian]

J Sub D was the Fox News reporter a victim of torture?

Not a victim because he volunteered, but yes, he volunteered to be tortured. Lots of people do this, by the way (for further reference, google "S&M").

So, yes, he was tortured. I don't see where the fact that he volunteered suddenly makes it "not torture"...people who volunteer to die are still dead.

[Neil]

So waterboarding is like S&M? Oh noes, the HORROR!

[Ayn_Randian]

No cogent response? Color me shocked.

I did NOT say waterboarding was like S & M...I said that it's possible to volunteer to be tortured, but that doesn't diminish the fact that it is, indeed, physically and mentally torturous.

Learn to read.

[Elemenope]

How bad can waterboarding be when a Fox News reporter volunteered to go through to process?

You, sir, are a moron.

See the word in bold for the explanation why.

If you are too thick for that, just note that the only line between a gift and a theft, or between making love and being raped, is the element of consent.

[J sub D]

Meanwhile, the question I asked neil at 1:42pm remains unanswered.

[Neil]

Sure J sub D you could do that. I really don't think it would be much worse than when I pledged for a frat, or what Ayn_Randian went through in boot camp.

[Ayn_Randian]

Neil, I volunteered to go through whatever it was I went through (which didn't even approach simulated drowning).

See Elemenope's post for further guidance.

Since you refuse to respond to oblique points, here's a position. In debating, you can either affirm or refute the position:

"There is a difference between granting your consent and not granting your consent, and this consent is frequently what sets crimes apart from non-crimes"

So, Neil, do you agree or disagree with the quoted portion?

[J sub D]

I ran into an interesting tidbit about S&M practices and the legality of same when it goes awry. From Savage Love

Another kinkster is dead after being tied up and left alone. James Bargy, 29, died after his wife, Rebecca Bargy, tied him up and left him alone for 20 hours. Mr. and Mrs. Bargy reportedly played this game before; she was spending the night at a hotel with another man, and their cuckolding routine involved her leaving him bound and wiggling out of the bondage. Not this time: Mr. Bargy-a ball gag in his mouth and most of his head wrapped in duct tape-asphyxiated before his wife returned. Mr. Bargy remains deceased as of this writing and Mrs. Bargy is facing prison time.

Make of it what you will.

[Neil]

I agree but I don't think not consenting to waterboarding would really make it that much worse. Comparing voluntary waterboarding to sex and involuntary waterboarding to rape is especially rediculus.

[Neil]

Real torture is like getting your fingernails pulled off or your testicles electrocuted. How many people volunteer for that?

[Neu Mejican]

Maybe even better Rick Wakeman antidote than the afrofunk mix I posted above...

Betty Davis*-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNcohPUr1PI

http://www.myspace.com/bettymabrydavis

*used to be married to Miles Davis and is probably the inspiration for Bitches Brew

[J sub D]

I give up, Neil. You're a lying fan-boy of the incompetent Bush administration with the intelligence of green leafy vegetables.

A_R, have at him, but I won't debate liars.

[Neu Mejican]

Real torture is like getting your fingernails pulled off or your testicles electrocuted. How many people volunteer for that?

Or reading Neil's arguments while listening to Rick Wakeman?

[Fluffy]

I think the issue of consent is even larger here than it would be in the other areas people have listed.

Consenting to waterboarding removes the element that is torturous - the element of doubt.

If you volunteer to be waterboarded as an experiment, you can be absolutely sure that the people cooperating with you in this experiment aren't going to actually drown you.

That Fox News reporter would have had a, shall we say, "different experience" if after he was tied down, I had come running into the room grinning maniacally and waving a piece of paper that I declared that was permission to drown him while remaining immune from prosecution.

You can't consent to be waterboarded any more than you can consent to participate in a fake execution. Fake executions are torture only if you don't know what is going to happen. If you know what is going to happen, it's a fucking performance art piece. Fake waterboarding is the same.

[Neil]

The Middle East is a part of the world where people are publically beheaded and stoned on a daily basis. And we think waterboarding is too hard for a terrorist from that kind of society? Come on folks! Remember who we're dealing with!

BTW, Op Chaos moves to Guam.

[Neu Mejican]

Neil,

You are beyond help.
Your lack of a moral compass makes worry whether it is safe for you to be around others.

[Neu Mejican]

"makes me worry" that is...

http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa

[Neil]

So what should we do with people like KSM (the mastermind behind 9/11?) Whats your preferred solution to get him to talk Neu Mejican, J Sub D, and Ayn_Randian?

[Pig Mannix]

Some morning entertainment...

[Neu Mejican]

Neil,

I am thinking that there are conventions that have been drawn up about how prisoners should be treated. I might use those as a starting point.

The point, of course, is that "getting him to talk" is not more important than remaining a moral human.

[Neil]

Well Neu, hate to break it to you but the enemy we are fighting doesn't believe in our conceptions of morality.

These are people that stone women, take elementary schools hostage, and fly planes into skyscrapers. You can't be a nice guy with them, you gotta be tough.

Don't believe in torture though, and waterboarding is NOT torture.

[Elemenope]

Real torture is like getting your fingernails pulled off or your testicles electrocuted. How many people volunteer for that?

You clearly have not experienced the more exciting side of this great place we call the Internet.

So what should we do with people like KSM (the mastermind behind 9/11?) Whats your preferred solution to get him to talk Neu Mejican, J Sub D, and Ayn_Randian?

Solitary confinement works wonders. Feed them three meals a day, a cot, and a prayer rug. Takes six months, tops.

Torture, on the other hand, just shuts them down. They don't tell you anything useful, despite what you may see on 24, and so you become nothing but a war criminal with nothing to show for it.

[Neil]

LOL elemenope they'd laugh at you. These are people who live in caves for years or decades on end. Solitary confiment in an American prison would be like staying at the Comfort Inn for these people.

[Elemenope]

Well Neu, hate to break it to you but the enemy we are fighting doesn't believe in our conceptions of morality.

Well gee, it's nice to know we get a free pass on our own ideals when someone else doesn't believe in them.

How are they still even *our* ideals if *we* don't follow them?

[Neil]

During WWII and the Cold War, Elemenope, we did a lot of things against our morality. but it was necessary for the final victory.

I guess in WII you would've let the Nazis and Japs bomb our cities but not respond in kind because its immoral to kill civillians?

[Kolohe]

Pig Mannix-

I have heard that the video, more precisely the audio, had been altered from the original 'war room' footage.

[Elemenope]

LOL elemenope they'd laugh at you.

There are *very* few human beings who can stay sane after six months of no human contact and nothing to do but pace in a 8 x 8 cell.

Personally, I think even that is inhumane. But as you say, I'm too *nice* a guy to be in the business of detaining people not charged with a crime.

[Pig Mannix]

I have heard that the video, more precisely the audio, had been altered from the original 'war room' footage.

I'm not in a position to vouch for it one way or the other. I merely present it as I found it...

[Kolohe]

Kantor's side on what supposedly happened in C-G '92.

[Elemenope]

I guess in WWII you would've let the Nazis and Jap[anese Imperials] bomb our cities but not respond in kind because its immoral to kill civilians?

In war, it is *widely* accepted that collateral civilian casualties are unavoidable (and I mean *actual* collateral damage, not "we say it's collateral so it is" damage; again, the issue is intent).

Carpet bombing civilian targets, on the other hand, is a war crime. Even Curtis LeMay (who probably holds the fucking world record for ordering civilian carpet bombings) said so. And it is widely accepted by military historians that fire bombing Dresden and Tokyo was neither instrumental nor necessary in foreshortening the war.

[Kolohe]

I'm inclined to believe Kantor did not say "white n******" because, in 1992 a 'white n*,' or 'wigger' or 'wannabe' derogatorily referred to a white person who 'immersed' themselves in 'black culture' complete with the hair styles and speech patterns.

It would not be used as a substitute for 'white trash' which is how it's used in that video; 'trailer trash', 'rednecks' or well, 'white trash' would have been used.

I want to say 'white n-' as a substitute for 'white trash' -which is still rare - probably didn't come into use until Marshall Mathers, and possibly was used by him first.

[Calidore]

Neil,

Any definition of torture would exclude a voluntary act such as that. Torture seems to require that the act be coercive in nature.

[Kolohe]

And it is widely accepted by military historians that fire bombing Dresden and Tokyo was neither instrumental nor necessary in foreshortening the war.

True.

But I believe one has to give it some credit for 'winning the peace'.

I gotta think that both countries' move to reflexive pacifism in the decades after WW2 was in no small part to the collective memory of the horror of war.

Note: I am not advocating carpet bombing Iraq or any other country, just that the issue is not a clear cut as even hindsight may provide.

[Pig Mannix]

I'm inclined to believe Kantor did not say "white n******" because, in 1992 a 'white n*,' or 'wigger' or 'wannabe' derogatorily referred to a white person who 'immersed' themselves in 'black culture' complete with the hair styles and speech patterns.

It would not be used as a substitute for 'white trash' which is how it's used in that video; 'trailer trash', 'rednecks' or well, 'white trash' would have been used.

I don't how authentic the video is, but I certainly say for sure the term "white n******" was indeed used to denigrate "white trash", not only in 1992, but at least as far back as the early 1970's which is my first recollection of hearing it. That it wasn't being used in that context in 1992 is simply not true.

[Kolohe]

One last thing on Kantor:

evidence that even if the audio wasn't doctored, the subtitles may not be was he was saying.

[Calidore]

Obama has picked up four Superdelegates today and Clinton has picked up two, according to these folks. Obama is leading in Guam.

[Kolohe]

Two other local Guam sites:

KUAM NBC affiliate

PDN Pacific Daily News, local newspaper.

[Mad Max]

"Mr. Bargy remains deceased as of this writing . . ."

Sad but predictable that he would "remain deceased."

[Ayn_Randian]

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never respond to Neil ever, ever again.

Except to flame him.

[Elemenope]

I gotta think that both countries' move to reflexive pacifism in the decades after WW2 was in no small part to the collective memory of the horror of war.

If that sort of logic held, then WWII should never have happened, since the grotesque horrors of WWI were plenty fresh in the minds of the German people in the intervening years.

Not for nothing, but the stability provided by a bipolar cold war world prevented large scale war following the end of WWII, and not the people's memories of the horrors of war (esp. since we were more than willing to visit those same horrors, in miniature, other places.)

What also helped the pacifism along was an enforced breaking of the power of the German and Japanese militaries. It is awfully difficult to fight a war of aggression when you don't have armed forces to speak of.

[Ali]

The Middle East is a part of the world where people are publically beheaded and stoned on a daily basis. And we think waterboarding is too hard for a terrorist from that kind of society? Come on folks! Remember who we're dealing with!

Screw-off Niel. This is not a middle school here. May be when you get to college we'd take you seriously.

[Kolohe]

LMNOP-

My impression is the the actual veterans of WW1 (of which there were a lot) experienced the grotesque horror of war, but not so much civilians. (deprivations, yes, horrors no). Similarly in WW2, the US civilian suffered deprivation but not horror, thus providing no restriction from that point of view on us visiting those horrors upon Korea, Vietnam, etc

I don't know enough if to say if the German military post WW-1 was also broken, but just reconstituted itself - my instinct is that the versailles treaty in fact tried to break the power of the German military.

But as for Japan, their 'self-defense force' has been the most well-equipped, well-funded, and well-trained military in east asia for at least two decades now. By some measures (which I don't entirely agree with) they spend as much as South Korea or Taiwan, countries with 'real' enemies.

That said, I agree that the bipolar nuclear armed world did the most on maintaining the 'peace' since WW2.

[Calidore]

Looks like Obama has won 18 of the 19 districts in Guam.

[Calidore]

Er, I mean, it looks like he is ahead with 18 of 19 districts reporting.

[J sub D]

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never respond to Neil ever, ever again.

Except to flame him.

I'll hold you to that if you'll do the same for me. Deal?

[Calidore]

Kolohe,

The Belgian population did experience the horrors of war and the same is true of those populations along the various frontlines. As for deprivations, well, a major reason why Germans revolted against the Kaiser's regime in 1918 was due to the deprivations which they endured during the war and which they were no longer will to endure. The NAZI regime feared something similar during WWII which is in major part why the NAZI economic policy spent so much effort focused on the German civilian population's needs.

[Kolohe]

Calidore-
But Belgium didn't start WW2.

It doesn't matter, though, I've changed my mind. The whole pre-ww2 conventional narrative revolves around the fact that the allied powers were taking great pains to avoid war - due to the memories of the horrors of world war 1.

So I concede that experiencing war is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition to avoid future wars.

[Chris Potter]

J_D and Ayn_Randian,

I don't think even libertarians believe in enforcing contracts that require depriving one party of their life...

[J sub D]

I don't think even libertarians believe in enforcing contracts that require depriving one party of their life...

But this is my all time favorite game show.

[Elemenope]

I'm surprised the dem. candidates didn't do a whirlwind tour of the American Territories (or maybe they did and I just missed it.) If one did and the other did not, I would imagine a good rate of return on delegates.

[Ayn_Randian]

Chris - no TRUE libertarian would say that...hand in your decoder ring! 😀

[Shillary]

Looks like Obama has won 18 of the 19 districts in Guam.

Yeah, but Pennsylvania has more electoral votes than Guam. So there.

[Bubba Albatross]

Jesse Jackson won Guam in 1988!

[Chris Potter]

A_R,

That must be another of them there paleo/cosmo things. 😉

[Neu Mejican]

These are people that stone women, take elementary schools hostage, and fly planes into skyscrapers. You can't be a nice guy with them, you gotta be tough.

You seem to be conflating a large set of disparate groups into a big mush of evil that must be lashed out against. If by "people" you are indicating the group which includes our fine friend Ali, you are just being a bigot. If you are just being sloppy and trying to indicate the group "terrorists" with your term "people" then I suppose you also support the same treatment of "murderers" and "rapists" and others who commit violent criminal acts.

One of the many (many, many, many) things you are missing in this discussion is that many of the prohibitions against mistreatment of prisoners are in place to protect the innocent since it is rare that you are 100% certain you have the right person.

If the fight against terrorism is a fight between ideologies, one cruel and one enlightened, the way to victory for those who believe in the enlightened ideology is not to adopt the means and morals of the cruel ideology. Cuz that road leads to victory for the cruel ideology ("the terrorists have won" is the phrase that applies, I believe).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZgHH72G8wQ

[Calidore]

Kolohe,

Actually, Belgium's decision to remain neutral in 1940 is to many historians key to the outcome of how the war in the Western part of Europe unfolded. If Belgium had allowed Allied forces to enter Belgium in the months prior to the German invasion of the West then the war might have turned out quite differently. I would assume that at least one reason that Belgium remained neutral was due in part to the horrors of WWI.

[Calidore]

Kolohe,

Oh, and excellent observation. One doesn't have to directly experience war to be horrified by it; and of course the experiences of many people were 'direct' even if they weren't on the frontlines - since they had to deal with the fate of lost or wounded sons, husbands, brothers, etc.

[Neu Mejican]

To continue with the torture and funk theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntyOO9Z-p4Y

Bootsy Collins.

[Kolohe]

How this for an omen.

In a crowded field, 'Big Brown' beats the lone female in the race.

And now their calling an ambulance for her.

[Kolohe]

and now they just report they put her down.

[Neu Mejican]

More funk,

This time just for Neil...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZY_eBQuQD8

Syrian Funk

[Ayn_Randian]

I demand more Alan Parsons for "Politics n' Prog"...shit, WRT government, the "Eye in the Sky" post practically writes itself.

[Ayn_Randian]

now that I think about, the lyrics to "Turn of a Friendly Card" are almost directly applicable to Iraq.

We should start mocking the warhawks, not with "lights at the end of the tunnel" and "going around corners" but with this:

But the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card
No the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card

[joe]

Hillary and McCain are both Daffy Ducks!

Hillary is a Daffy Duck.

McCain is an Elmer Fudd.

[joe]

Second on the Alan Parsons Project.

Don't Answer Me was a groundbreaking video, and had a lot of heart.

[Ayn_Randian]

joe! we share a common love of Alan Parsons. I vote that we cast aside our respective religions of Catholicism and Randianism and worship at the local APP temple 😀

no, seriously, everyone pimps Rush because of Peart's Objectivism and "Anthem 2112", but APP was influenced by Phillip K. Dick, Issac Asimov, Orson Welles and probably the Illuminati....they're totally a libertarian band.

[joe]

Prog was such a cerebral musical form. The Alan Parsons Project had real heart.

[Neu Mejican]

joe,

Prog was such a cerebral musical form. The Alan Parsons Project had real heart.

Compared to Rick Wakeman sure, but play one of the Betty Davis cuts I linked above next to APP and APP sound pretty cerebral.

[Conservative Observer]

Check this out:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/03/wright.fallout/index.html

Still talking about a story liberals declared to be "dead".

Obama's support among white, working class voters in swing states has plummeted. In fact, when they think of Obama now they think "Rev. Wright". They are considered to be this years "soccer moms". Not good at all for Obama.

[Ali]

Ayn Randian-

Here is Alan Parsons Project's Sirius:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W8FuTIvuFk

[Ayn_Randian]

Ali - I always forget that what I knew as "The Long Intro to 'Eye in the Sky' is called Sirius:

Here's another (not live) version of the song.

Although thanks for the link; I didn't know they sounded that amazing live!

[Ali]

AR-

Believe it or not, my dad introduced me to Pink Floyd (in the freaking middle east, Neil!). My chemistry teacher at high school introduced me to Alan Parsons in 1992/3.

[Ali]

NM- Long time, no hear. Thanks for the kind note above in your response to Neil.

[Guy Montag]

J sub D,

Provided I have the same immunity while you attempt to capture me, then we have a deal.

[Ayn_Randian]

Provided I have the same immunity while you attempt to capture me, then we have a deal.

No, Guy! This is a nation ruled by laws, not ruled by men. Even if other countries are so morally deficient they do not prosecute torture, the United States is better than that. All crimes are punished, no matter the situation or "special circumstances".

[Ayn_Randian]

Believe it or not, my dad introduced me to Pink Floyd (in the freaking middle east, Neil!).

Freakin' awesome. I think I might steal this quote for my signature.

Is it more or less believable that I'm an APP fanboi at 24? (I guess we both have our fathers to thank!)

[Ali]

AR-

"They must find it difficult... Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." -Gerald Massey

[Ali]

AR- At 30 here, though.

[Neu Mejican]

Hey Ali,

Since it's my day to post funk music...

Here's one from Egypt.

http://djalma-soulfood.blogspot.com/2008/03/salah-ragab-egypt-strut-45-vinyl-rip.html

And there is always Ali Hassan Kuban
http://www.piranha.de/records/english/artists/art_ali.htm

[Neu Mejican]

Ali,

Hopefully that Salah Ragab track will help breakdown some more preconceptions about Middle Eastern culture.

Not that Neil is likely to appreciate it.

[Ali]

NM-

Never heard of either. Are you sure you have no ME connections? Man, you know more about MEern music than I do. Regarding the two links you provide, I can't find any music and I am to eager to listen to their music!

[Ali]

I am listening to a track from Kuban. That's no funk! That's nubian music. Beautiful stuff!

[Neu Mejican]

Ali,

Kuban is often referred to as the "James Brown of Egypt" lots of his stuff is traditional, but some of it is deeply funky...

My fave funky cuts are "Henna" & "Habibi"

The first link is for a download, not a stream...couldn't find a stream.

As far as Middle Eastern connections...my handle says it all...I ain't even from middle eastern New Mexico.

[Ayn_Randian]

ooh...I'd also like to mention that "Politics 'n Prog" desperately needs an infusion of music from The Moody Blues. I love them more than I do APP.

[Ali]

Freakin' awesome. I think I might steal this quote for my signature.

Glad you liked it. Feel free to use it as you wish.

[Ali]

NM- I totally missed the link to the music. It must be age.

[Neu Mejican]

Ali,

Here's a blog from a guy who seems to know something about Egyptian music.

It has a nice profile of Kuban

[Neu Mejican]

http://kanzaltuhaf.blogspot.com/

[Ali]

Probably the pan-Egyptian folk song of all time, sung by Dalida.

[Neu Mejican]

Ali,

Nice song, even if that version seems a bit over-produced.

I just added Dalida's first album to my play list on Rhapsody...I had not heard of her. I am guessing older is better. No?

[Ali]

I am guessing older is better.

Definitely!

[Calidore]

Obama won Guam by seven votes.

[Guy Montag]

Conspiracy theory of the night.

Yesterday it was the "DC madam's" 'murder'.

Today, it is the demise of Eight Belles, that placed second in the Kentucky Derby.

Seems that failing to win will get you two broken ankles and a leathal injection if Mrs. Clinton famously announces the day before that she expects you to win!

[Colin Clout]

David,

Wasn't there also an effort to link Cazayoux to Obama?

[J sub D]

Today, it is the demise of Eight Belles, that placed second in the Kentucky Derby.

Similar to many dog breeds that have congenital physical defects bred into them, thoroughbred horses, having been bred for speed rather than endurance, have lighter, weaker bones than other equine breeds. Lighter, weaker bones gives a greater muscle to mass ratio and a faster horse. Sadly, shattered bones and the subsequent mercy killings are an all too common feature of thoroughbred racing.

[Neil]

Well, Op chaos worked beautifully in Guam. One more step to chaos in Denver! LOL! I'm sure Al Sharpton is getting the marchers ready as we speak!

Are you going to make your voice heard Joe?LOL!

[Neil]

BTW this morning on MTP it was all Wright all the time.

This story just keeps going and going and going.

[Calidore]

Neil,

It should be noted that Clinton won American Samoa back in February, so I don't think Obama had any sort of lock on Guam. In other words, I really wouldn't read much into the Guam election results (except that he did better on Guam than he did in another American territory in the Pacific).

[Guy Montag]

Similar to many dog breeds that have congenital physical defects bred into them, thoroughbred horses, having been bred for speed rather than endurance, have lighter, weaker bones than other equine breeds. Lighter, weaker bones gives a greater muscle to mass ratio and a faster horse. Sadly, shattered bones and the subsequent mercy killings are an all too common feature of thoroughbred racing.

So, she can run that big of a conspiracy without detection? Be afraid, very afraid!

[joe]

Neil's standard for "Operation Chaos" working now appears to be "Hillary Clinton receiving votes in a contest."

Obama kicked ass on the Meet the Press - during the 15 minutes that were about Wrigh, and during the 45 minutes that were about other stuff.

The gas tax pander seems to be boomeranging on Hillary. It's polling badly, with people seeing it as a political ploy rather than a serious policy proposal. Obama spent the weekend not just attacking the proposal, but linking to a campaign narrative, "Hillary is a phony with phony proposals."

[joe]

Republicans can't win seats in Mississippi and Louisiana?

Whoa.