Snoop Kabobs

Will Saletan explains how he can be both sympathetic to animal rights and in favor of legalizing the trade in dog meat.

Comments

[Warren]

I ? Animals
They're Delicious

[Elemenope]

Sounded fairly sensible to me.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Snoop Kabobs is a great header, however I thought we were BBQ'ing that rap guy or something.

[Taktix?]

I thought "snoop kabobs" meant the NSA was hiding cameras in home grills.

[Episiarch]

I'd like to try dog, but that's partially because I share KMW's desire to eat every animal I possibly can. I'm also just curious. I'd really like to try cetacean. I dissected one once and the meat is so, so red because of their excess hemoglobin (for oxygen storage for dives). I bet it tastes great and I'd like to see if it gave me a liver-like burst of energy.

[Guy Montag]

At last, someone is not bashing Michael Vick for his lifestyle choices any more.

[Warren]

I'd really like to try cetacean.

Leela: Dolphin? But dolphins are intelligent. Bender: Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets.

[ed]

bashing Michael Vick

What's wrong with you, Guy? All civilized and emotional people know that killing a dog for losing a fight is wrong but killing a cow 'cause it tastes good is right. Get with it, man!

[rana]

Has anyone seen a video of how these dogs are treated? They are beaten and skinned alive. It's really cruel.
If you are going to eat the animal, why be a sadistic fuck?

[woofyman]

Boy, if you really want to increase the number of Libertarians, this is really the issue to get behind !

[Jesse Walker]

Boy, if you really want to increase the number of Libertarians, this is really the issue to get behind!

I forgot: the only possible reason to discuss anything in the world is to find an "issue to get behind," and the only reason to take a stand is to "increase the number of Libertarians."

[Jesse Walker]

Has anyone seen a video of how these dogs are treated? They are beaten and skinned alive. It's really cruel.

If so, that's all the more reason to bring the black market aboveground.

[woofyman]

You have to pick your battles.

Making it legal to torture, kill and eat dogs and post the video on YouTube or advocating for that will put your cause back 2,000 years.

[Jorgen]

rana | April 16, 2008, 12:03pm | #
Has anyone seen a video of how these dogs are treated? They are beaten and skinned alive. It's really cruel.
If you are going to eat the animal, why be a sadistic fuck?

Have you seen videos of pigs, cows and Chickens being held and slaughtered? I fully intend to raise my children with at least a pet pig so that they grow up with the same sensitivity to pig's suffering as most people have to the suffering of dogs and cats.

[Jesse Walker]

You have to pick your battles.

This is an excellent argument against taking the resources that could be spent opposing the war in Iraq or the militarization of the police force and redeploying them to fight for legalizing dog meat in South Korea.

It is not an argument against linking to an interesting article, written by someone actually sympathetic to animal rights, about the unfortunate consequences of the meat ban.

[R C Dean]

I fully intend to raise my children with at least a pet pig so that they grow up with the same sensitivity to pig's suffering as most people have to the suffering of dogs and cats.

I have yet to meet anyone who grew up around livestock who is a vegetarian.

[isildur]

Disclaimer: I don't eat any mammals at all, because I think it's nasty.

The difference between a dog and a cow is simple, and it has nothing to do with one of them being cute; it has nothing to do with imaginary animal rights.

It's that we (collectively, as a species) bred dogs to be companions, because of their inherently social nature. We bred cows to be food.

There's an implied contract with the dog: "Be loyal, treat us as pack members, and guard us, and we'll ensure you're fed and given shelter and affection." Whether any given person agrees to that contract or not, it's embedded deeply in the nature of the domestic dog, in their behavior patterns, and in their expectations of a relationship with a human.

The contract with the cow is much more straightforward: "We will feed you and shelter you but eventually we may kill you and eat you."

This, to me, is why dog-eating is abhorrent. That said, banning it in a culture that traditionally practices it, with no expectation of enforcing the ban, is stupid. Black markets are always worse than legal markets in every possible way.

[rana]

"Has anyone seen a video of how these dogs are treated? They are beaten and skinned alive. It's really cruel."

"If so, that's all the more reason to bring the black market aboveground"

You are absolutely right.

[Guy Montag]

JW,

I forgot: the only possible reason to discuss anything in the world is to find an "issue to get behind," and the only reason to take a stand is to "increase the number of Libertarians."

So, can we have the next reasonoid gathering someplace where we can smoke and have dog fights?

[Guy Montag]

JW,

It is not the "black market" it is the privacy of our basements and garages!

[J sub D]

Isuldir, I have made no contracts with any members of the animal kingdom erxcept Homo sapiens.

I have ordered, eaten, enjoyed dog in Pusan, S. Korea. I tipped the waitress for good service, so I don't have any moral qualms about the incident. When I'm convinced that dogs are sentient, or endangered, I will support banning dining on domesiticated dogs (Canis lupus f. familiaris).

[J sub D]

isildur - sorry about butchering your handle's spelling.

[rana]

"Have you seen videos of pigs, cows and Chickens being held and slaughtered?"

Jorgen, I have witnessed pigs and chickens being slaughtered, not cows. Not the nicest thing to see, but at least it was "sort of humane"- a few blows to the head of the pig (that wasnt pleasant), and break the chicken's neck.
In fact, where I live you can see pigs being chopped up, heads and guts just hanging for everyone to see... (my stepmom, who is a vegan, was HORRIFIED at the sight of this, but I am used to it).

I know we will eat animals, it's the being deliberately cruel part that I object to.

disclaimer: Sometimes I wish I were a vegetarian but there is nothing I enjoy more than a good piece of steak. What's a meat-lovin' girl to do?

[Episiarch]

What's a meat-lovin' girl to do?

(snicker)

[J sub D]

So, can we have the next reasonoid gathering someplace where we can smoke and have dog fights?

Though I've been unable to justify banning dog fighting, or any other animal cruelty, using libertarian philosophy (property rights), I still generally support those prohibitions. I can turn in a decoder ring because I have two of them.

[isildur]

"When I'm convinced that dogs are sentient, or endangered, I will support banning dining on domesiticated dogs (Canis lupus f. familiaris)."

For the first three months of my baby's life, my dogs were a hell of a lot smarter than he was. He's just now, at 8 months, showing a better grasp of the world around him than the dogs -- and they still have him beaten in problem-solving.

But there's an implied contract with babies, as well: "We will be your caretakers because you cannot do it yourself." This is a contract that's honored even by people who are not the child's parents.

Now, granted, there's a preservation-of-species aspect to protecting babies that's not present for dogs. But it still makes a sentience defense a little hard to get behind. At what point do we judge an infant to be sentient? At birth? My kid was born premature. Was he sentient then? He sure didn't look much like a human. Is he sentient now? He doesn't have any language, he's incapable of feeding himself, and he's barely got a handle on object permanence.

(This, incidentally, is a large part of why I don't eat mammals -- because I have trouble with the idea of sentience as a binary state. I've owned rats that were smarter than a newborn, and my dogs are still smarter than a lot of people who are accorded full human rights.)

[Guy Montag]

JsD said "butchering" in the tastey dog thread, hehehe.

[rana]

"What's a meat-lovin' girl to do?

(snicker)"

Ah, I knew it was just a matter of time... Thanks for not dissapointing.

SEXUAL HARASSMENT! SEXUAL HARASSMENT! 😉

[Guy Montag]

She said her ass meant

[Kwix]

Not having read the article to see if this point was addressed; I don't really think that dog meat will get that great of a following.

Traditionally dogs have been consumed as last ditch foods (starving folks), as end of life foods (plains Indians consumed a dog when it could work no more), in conjunction with religious ceremonies or in a very juvenile form so they would not have to be fed (puppies in China for example).

Predators like dogs and cats are typically very inefficient at converting foodstuffs to body mass and even more so when you take into account their typical diet (meat already converted from grain with its inherent losses).

IOW, with all the health and safety regulations* that would be required to bring the dog meat market above ground, the cost per pound would be astronomical when compared to even "exotic" herbivores like Bison. A few people would still consume it but I suspect it would be harder to find in your average supermarket than Ostrich is.

*eg. you have to monitor the diet and health of an animal. I highly doubt the USDA is going to let you harvest an animal that has been scavenging the streets and sell it for food.

[val]

When I'm convinced that dogs are sentient

Explain that please. What exactly is sentience is your opinion? From where I stand dogs are sentient, not of the same level as humans, but higher then human babies and toddlers.

Though I've been unable to justify banning dog fighting, or any other animal cruelty, using libertarian philosophy (property rights)

Ah here lies the crux of the problem. Libertarian philosophy does not equal property rights. Property rights are a part of libertarian philosophy but they are not one of the same.

And even taken entirely in the context of property rights, libertarian philosophy recognizes various types of property, real property, tangible, intagible, some recognize intellectual property etc... Even young children can be considered property (on lease?) until they reach the age of majority. However for some odd reason, seemingly bright libertarians cannot see the difference between Rex and an Ipod. Go figure.

[Guy Montag]

Next thing you will tell me is that we can't send our children into the boxing ring.

[Prolefeed]

So would Vicks have been guilty of cruelty if they slaughtered and ate the losing dog?

[val]

Next thing you will tell me is that we can't send our children into the boxing ring.

Oh my chidlren will be thrown into a boxing ring. But, if the cops come and break that shit up because some other brats are constistenly biting chunks of flesh out of my brats, then I would not have a problem with that.

Next thing you know those SOBs will be telling me that I cant potty train my kids with
a power cord and 120V. Those fuckers.

[JParker]

Most of dog meat sold in S. Korea is from specific breeds of dog bred for meat. Any real ban on dog meat would probably lead to that breeds almost immediate extinction. Don't know how much of the companion animal traits are still left in those breeds without personal experience.

Dogs in general are man's only friends. Everything else is prey{wild deer, fish), enemies (wolves, bears), prisoners (sheep, cows, hamsters), or parasites (cats). Some people would put horses in the friend category as well. I don't have enough experience to say. I like cats but they are not our friends.

Disclaimer: I have a dog living at my house. I'd say own but the contract we signed with the rescue people would make that language a little gray. We cannot kill, abuse, use for experimentation, sell or transfer to a third party, and are supposed to notify before we move out of the area. All in all the same property rights you do not have over a child.

[Guy Montag]

val,

DC is much more effective.

[J sub D]

Explain that please. What exactly is sentience is your opinion? From where I stand dogs are sentient, not of the same level as humans, but higher then human babies and toddlers.

When an entity is capable of and does communicate its desires for freedom and rights, it is probably sentient. When an entity can be expected to develop those capabilities (human beby) it is included.

Pile on comparing puppies to severely retarded children all yuo want, dogs (and horses) are dumb animals that I have no moral compunction against me, or anybody else, consuming. We can talk about some cetaceans, but dogs (and horses) miss the cut.

[J sub D]

However for some odd reason, seemingly bright libertarians cannot see the difference between Rex and an Ipod. Go figure.

Obviously I make a distinction. See my post about animal cruelty laws. Can you define the difference between a dog and a cow, sheep, rabbit, moose, chicken etc. that would give the canine special status? Are dogs semi persons? A whole new category that is neither man nor beast? Is it a sliding scale that has mammals above reptiles? What?

Human, non-human as it stands today is good enough for me. The gengineers will be delivering some very difficult moral questions in less than a century, we'll have to stumble forward and adjust our thinking as it goes.

Anybody who claims to have all of the answers is full of shit.

One last thing, I love dogs, man's best friend. The wide variety of services they perform for us asshole humans is mind boggling.

[SIV]

They are beaten and skinned alive. It's really cruel. If you are going to eat the animal, why be a sadistic fuck?

tenderness? flavor?

[val]

Anybody who claims to have all of the answers is full of shit.

First no one claimed to have all the answers. I simply said that I see a moral distinction between stepping on an Ipod in a fit of rage and stepping on a cat. You don't? How this codified in law is open to wide ranging discussion.

When an entity is capable of and does communicate its desires for freedom and rights, it is probably sentient.

So if you were to remove a human from society, in which case he/she would not even have a concept of rights, much less communicate them, are they fair game for skinning? Think isolated aboriginee tribes for example or 'wolf boy'. Now in terms of communicating freedom? You mean the way animals at the zoo would try to escape the cage given the chance? If thats not 'communicating' desire for freedom I dont know what is. Or the way a lost dog would cross hell and high water to find the owner again?

Pile on comparing puppies to severely retarded children all yuo want
Consider them piled. Rebuttal?

Im not saying that dog should equal man in the eyes of the law, just dog should not equal a jar of pickles. And yes in my mind a dog would probably warrant more protection than an ant.

[atrevete]

"Some people would put horses in the friend category as well. I don't have enough experience to say. I like cats but they are not our friends".

I've never heard of a kid being mauled to death by a housecat. And how often do you hear about a horse running across a field to attack some stranger just because he's there.