Red-Headed Stranger, "The Body" See Controlled Demolition

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Everyone's favorite weed-smoking, tax-cheating troubadour, Mr. Willie Nelson, has joined the ranks of the 9/11 "truthers." On Amy Goodman's Democracy Now radio program, Pancho the Lefty dropped some science on how buildings collapse: "I think 85 or 90 percent of the people in this country say, "What?" I mean, a plane hit this building, and it fell kind of like that. And another plane hit that building, and it fell kind of like that. About the same time it fell, this one fell the same way. It looked like an implosion somewhere, you know? And then, all of a sudden, the third building fell, and no plane hit it."

Former Minnesota governor Jesse "The Body" Ventura recently appeared on The Alex Jones Show to offers his own, Loose Change-inspired theories of how buildings collapse and at what temperature jet fuel burns. The crack(pot) reporters at Prison Planet have the story:

"Two planes struck two buildings….but how is it that a third building fell 5 hours later? How could this building just implode into its own footprint 5 hours later—that's my first question—the 9/11 Commission didn't even devote one page to that in their big volume of investigation. How could those buildings fall at the speed of gravity—if you put a stopwatch on them both of those World Trade Center buildings were on the ground in ten seconds—how can that be?"
[…]

Having undergone Basic Underwater Demolition Seal training, Ventura is speaking from an experienced standpoint and he unequivocally stated that he thought the buildings were deliberately imploded.

"Upon looking at the film in super-slow motion and the way the buildings fell and comparing that to the way that they do like a controlled demolition of a hotel in Las Vegas, they both fell identical."

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  1. Predicting a clusterfuck of a thread

  2. You all better to Jesse Ventura. He was in Predator. He knows Bill Duke. He knows Carl Weathers. He will kick your ass for TRUTH.

  3. Former Minnesota governor Jesse “The Body” Venture

    Also, it’s Ventura. Unless he’s Rusty and Jonah Jr’s long lost 3rd twin.

  4. Jesse Ventura is a steroid-abusing, somewhat unstable gay man… not that there’s anything wrong with that!!

  5. In just one small story we plainly see the mental consequences of smokin dope and prefessional wrasslin.

  6. Come on, it’s not like we didn’t know Jesse was a little wacky.

    Time for Captain Freedom’s workout!

  7. What, no suggestions that the video of planes hitting was photo-shopped?

    Cynthia McKinney has just came out saying that the twin towers were hit by the Bush Administration as a blatantly racist attack on the legacy of Hakeem Olojuwan and Ralph Sampson.

  8. “Having undergone Basic Underwater Demolition Seal training, Ventura is speaking from an experienced standpoint…”

    Does anything fall at free fall underwater?

    Maybe I should ask some of the folks at Ron Paul’s April 15th rally. The MC is the “plane pod” guy, maybe he will know. Also James Fetzer will speak there, but he thinks the thermite crowd is dead wrong, it was lazer beams.

  9. You tell those pot smoking troofers Moynihan! Everyone knows that Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are completely honest and upfront with the American people. Those who try to tell us we are being lied to are insane.

  10. Paging Gabe Harris, paging Gabe Harris. Call on line 2.

  11. No one could have predicted that any terrorist would hijack a plane and fly it into a building!

  12. well except for this nutter:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqGIF-fdQL8

  13. fact: foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor by elements, including those of very high rank and stature, of the United States government is well established and incontrovertible. The attack was prefaced by suspicious activities in the U.S. , including the simultaneous deployment of ALL aircraft carriers away from their bases in Hawaii and the sudden mysterious absence of several key military leaders from their posts in Pearl Harbor on the day of attack.
    Now, I do not claim that there was a controlled demolition of the buildings on 9/11. And i certainly believe that there are some moonbat whackos afoot in the Truther movement.
    However, to summarily dismiss the possibility that there were those in government that knew about the attacks and did nothing to stop it is an excess of skepticism … as excessive a fault as undue credulity. Given our government’s history of lies, obfuscation and general lack of trustworthiness, including the facts about Pearl Harbor cited above, it seems to me to be somewhat strange that otherwise intelligent and discerning people cannot see what is very obvious: mistakes were made, and not all of them can be chalked up to incompetence.

  14. i really don’t mind truthers as long as they stay in their corner of the internet. but why do they need to show up to all the fucking RP and libertarian events???

  15. and Operation Northwoods was a government plan to hijack planes and fly them into buildings. but other than that…..NOBODY could have known.

  16. I think alot of people want it to come out that our government was responsible for 9/11 and I’m not sure why.

    I just…ok, so what exactly is the theory here?

    That a secret team of government agents snuck into the twin towers on 9/10, and wrapped the building with enough explosives to take it down?

    And they hid all of this from everyone, and even by 9am the next day, no one in maintenance/cleaning staff/ or anyone else saw anything?

    and on top of that, no member of the secret team has breathed a word of this to anyone?

  17. fact: foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor by elements, including those of very high rank and stature, of the United States government is well established and incontrovertible.

    We KNOW this is a “fact” because jackal said it “is well established and incontrovertible.”

  18. Also these stories are rather old. The Ventura piece happened over a week ago. The Willie Nelson news happened even weeks before Michael went on his AIPAC trip.

    Cosmo Overlord,

    Northwoods wasn’t about flying planes into buildings. They were going to get a lot of spooks posing as college kids, put them on a plane, switch planes south of Florida, and blow up the empty plane saying it was Cuba. They were also going to fire mortar into US bases and blame that on Cuba. There might also be a couple of other things, but I don’t believe flying planes into buildings was one of them.

  19. capo … I do not subscribe to any of those theories. I do not believe for one moment that this was the work of the U.S. government. I do believe that, like in the case of Pearl Harbor, the government knew it was going to happen and allowed it to occur so as to further their aims in this world.

  20. J sub D … prove me wrong.

  21. Hey Jackal, what about the North American Union? And don’t forget the OneWorldGovernment! What about them?

  22. Ah, I love the smell of negative assertion in the morning. It smells like…horseshit.

  23. Those buildings never existed in the first place. All a mirage, a nefarious plan by our neocon overlords. What? Mother? Is that you, mother? The strawberries! Get them off me!

  24. whoops…negative proof

  25. Uh, jackal, prove yourself right.

  26. Yes, the Bush administration executed the most amazing perfect and unbelievably precise conspiracy in the history of the United States… And I was about to vote for Ventura.

  27. J sub D … prove me wrong.

    There are two hundren ming vasae on the far side of the moon. Prove me wrong.

  28. cesar .. FYI … The North American Union is baloney, and the one world government crowd reads WAY too much into things. Do not try to lump me in with the moonbats. I am offering a reasoned argument. Please re-read my comments … nowhere do I say that I concur with Willie Nelson or Jesse Ventura or any other person who believes that the government sent secret demolition squads to NYC on 9/11.
    read this if you have the time or inclination:
    http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

  29. jackal the carlos, why do you hate jews? WW2 was national greatness, do you seriosuly wish Hitler had killed more jews. We can tell your a nutter, don’t come around here. Seriously the government has never lied to us for long, the secrets always leak out because we have a strong free press. When it comes out we always learn that it was just honest little mistakes, take you anti-semitic talk elsewhere.

  30. Cosmo Overlord is the worst poster on HnR

  31. i really don’t mind truthers as long as they stay in their corner of the internet. but why do they need to show up to all the fucking RP and libertarian events???

    because people who distrust the government like the idea of less government power?

  32. Jackal, do you seriously assume effective government malice before simple government incompetence? First rule of being a libertarian is to realize that government doesn’t work very well. Thats why I’m quite willing to believe the feds fucked up on a massive level in 2001.

  33. J sub D … there are 50,185 stinging nettles in your ass-crack. Prove me wrong. Congratulations … you got the point. You can no more prove me wrong than I can prove you wrong. We are left to reason what the facts are … proof is never positive.

  34. Conspiracy theorists like jackal make me want to go watch The Skulls. At least that was entertaining.

  35. You gotta love conspiracy theory nuts.
    Every family has one that is tolerated at Thanksgiving dinner.

    “Hey, Uncle Milhouse is crazy, but we still love him.”

  36. Heres my reasoning:

    1) Government, on all levels, fucks up on daily basis

    2) Government is rarely efficient or effective

    3) Therefore, its much more probable the feds fucked up and didn’t know what the hell was going on before 9/11 than knew what was going to happen and chose not to do anything about it.

  37. One thing that causes all these “conspiracy theories” are our shady politicians. Zelikow himself is a piece of garbage for starters, not the right man to head the commission if you ask me.

    But then look at history. Our CIA was involved in radicalizing muslims for a while. After the Soviet-Afghan War was over we obviously completely severed ties with those radicals who just so happen to attack us and those conspiracy minded folks just cannot get that through their thick head. One might not find reality as a sufficient explanation but it is generally accepted as true. That’s just common sense.

  38. I hate 9/11 troofers. Please read the 9/11 commission report like me and see why WTC 7 fell! No one who knows anything about civil engineering or architecture believes any of the tin foil hat theories about WTC 7. If you don’t believe the government you are so stupid.

  39. cesar … point taken, and I quite agree that government is incompetent. By way of analogy … you have a co-worker that is a bumbling buffoon. He can do nothing right. he jams the printer, he crashes servers at the office, he is basically an idiot. But one day, another person entrusts him with a big secret. Will he keep it? Will he blab to everyone is sight? You see, you cannot connect the incompetence to his ability to keep a secret. It may seem counterintuitive, but he just may be able to keep a secret from you, even if that secret is dangerous. He may have two left feet, but he may be able to keep a secret close to his vest.

  40. J sub D … there are 50,185 stinging nettles in your ass-crack. Prove me wrong. Congratulations … you got the point. You can no more prove me wrong than I can prove you wrong. We are left to reason what the facts are … proof is never positive.

    You’re an idiot. Why don’t you look in the ass crack instead of speculating and then crying about how no one could possibly know the truth?

    Oh wait your head is already shoved so far up your own ass there is no way to evaluate anyone else’s ass.

  41. PC,

    To be fair, Ventura never says he is speaking from experience. In fact, he goes out of his way to make clear he isn’t speaking from experience and that the UDC never did controlled explosions. Jones is the one who first claims Ventura is an expert, and then after Ventura specifically refutes this, ignores everything he said and continues to cite him as some sort of expert. I’d also take exception to the suggestion he “unequivocally” stated the buildings were imploded. All Jesse said was that it looked like the kind of explosions he sees in Las Vegas, and he was outraged that the 9/11 report ignored mention of the collapse of building 7 altogether. Alex Jones’ style tends to consist of making long winded leading statements rather than questions, and Prison Planet seems to be focusing more on the words he put in Ventura’s mouth rather than the words that actually came out of Ventura’s mouth.

  42. Cesar | April 8, 2008, 1:35pm | #

    I agree. Look out how bad they accidentally messed up the Iraq intell. Just government being government.

  43. that is right Cesar,
    All bad things the government does are accidents. They have good intentions and really do love us. I think The great libertarian Thomas Paine said that.

  44. Anyone who has seen buildings imploded are well aware that the WTC towers collapsed in the same manner. That proves nothing, execpt they fell in a manner consistant with buildings that were imploded by demolition.

    It offers no proof of cause.

  45. I just…ok, so what exactly is the theory here?

    The theory would seem to be that the government allowed 9/11 to happen because it was politically beneficial to have it happen.

    The reality is that the neocons definitely wanted to attack Iraq even before 9/11 happened. This has been documented. (PNAC springs to mind, among other places)

    But the neocons needed an excuse/reason.
    (– even the week after 9/11 I remember reading a quote by Rumsefled in USA Today where he talked about the need to go after Saddam that left me scratching my head wondering what Iraq had to do with any of this.))

    Without the events of 9/11, the Iraq war probably wouldn’t have happened, nor would many of the civil liberties curtailments have happened (at least not to the same degree nor in the same scope.) The panic and fear whipped up post 9/11 has allowed the government to intrude into our lives much more than they should be, and has pushed many people to accept the “it’s for your own security” when taking away our rights.

    The easiest way to control a population and keep them subservient is to have a common external enemy and to keep people afraid of boogeymen (like terrorists who will kill us here if don’t fight them over there)

    So the theory is that the gov’t allowed 9/11 to happen in order to justify more surveilance, more control over the population, curtailing of rights (like the 1st and 4th amendments) and to do away with things like Due Process and fair trials (see Enemy Combatants, secret trials, evidence gained via coercive interrogation/torture)

    At least that is the theory anyway. And in reality, I don’t find it that far fetched.

    Politicians and government types are power hungry and no I don’t find it hard to believe that they would allow a catastrophic event (and maybe even the people who did want it to happen underestimated how many fatalities would occur or the scope of the event)

    Now do I find it believable that the government actually demolished the buildings and all that crap?? not in the least.

    But I personally wouldn’t find it that hard to believe that certain people sat on actionable intelligence and did nothing knowing what was about to happen. That is a “conspiracy” that is much smaller and easier to pull off.

    And no I don’t believe the 9/11 commission report. Those people were tasked with whitewashing the whole mess.

  46. jsub, episiarch … you think I am nutty. I think you are naive. Yes, naive. I know your types rather well… one of them happens to be my brother, God bless him. The well-spoken, book-smart genius that cannot fathom anything outside the rigid rules of logic that his brain must be attuned to. You lack street smarts.

  47. No you idiot, when they have good intentions for us they fuck up. When they have bad intentions for us they fuck up. They screw up no matter what their intentions are.

    Conspiracy theorists think the government is all-powerful and all-effective, and could perfect our lives if it really WATED to. But instead this uber-competent, uber-effective, uber-secret organization has bad intentions and is running the world to their benefit from behind the scenes.

    How the hell is it libertarian to think that?

  48. “You lack street smarts.”

    Oh SHIT.

    *grabs popcorn*

  49. The U.S. government is headed by a bunch of incompetent, war-mongering gay men… not that there’s anything wrong with that!!

  50. Chicago Tom, I agree the “let it happen” idea is less nutty than the government actively carrying it out. But I still don’t think its nearly as probable as the government screwing it up big time.

  51. TrickyVic:

    Imploding is a means of collapsing a building using small explosive charges to weaken the structural integrity. The building doesn’t collapse because of the explosions, it collapses on itself because it can not hold itself up any longer.

    The plane crashes weakened the structural integrity of the WTC. It makes sense that buildings without structural integrity collapse in the same manner.

  52. bingo … go fuck yourself. I am an idiot? The only thing you have to offer to my elaborated thoughts on a complex topic is that bullshit? You have a small mind, are insecure, and full of yourself… try offering something meaningful next time, instead of reflexively lashing out against men with larger penises than you.

  53. Anyone who has ever watched Discovery would know better.It takes many days of prep and calculations to implode a building.Not to mention the people and drilling involved..After seeing the pros do it I must say it is impressive.

  54. PC, Zelikow has a long history of being a dedicated public servant.

    After George W. Bush took office, Zelikow was named to a position on the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board [PFIAB], and worked on other task forces and commissions as well. He directed the bipartisan National Commission on Federal Election Reform, created after the 2000 election and chaired by former presidents Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford, along with Lloyd Cutler and Bob Michel. This Commission’s recommendations led directly to congressional consideration and enactment into law of the Help America Vote Act of 2002.[3]

    when Richard Haass, a senior aide to Secretary of State Colin Powell and the director of policy planning at the State Department, drafted for the administration an overview of America’s national security strategy following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Dr. Rice, the national security advisor, “ordered that the document be completely rewritten. She thought the Bush administration needed something bolder, something that would represent a more dramatic break with the ideas of the past. Rice turned the writing over to her old colleague, University of Virginia Professor Philip Zelikow.” This document, issued on September 17, 2002, is generally recognized as a significant document in the War on Terrorism.

    What were you doing when Zelikow was helping fight the war on terror? sitting in your mom’s basement drinking mountain dew? I think your nut job talk about Zelikow being slimy is completely out of line. There are no reports of anything being done to cover up the truth!

    If it weren’t for Zelikow we might not even have fair elections….so you should really be thanking the man for our democracy.

  55. On special this week:

    Purina Troll Chow

  56. jackal the carlos:

    There are 50,185 neurons in your brain, and not a single one of them is firing. Prove me wrong.

  57. “How could those buildings fall at the speed of gravity”

    I seem to recall that objects accelerate downward at 9.8m/s^2. Buildings probably are a special case.

  58. jackal,

    Your social skill set appears to be as lacking as your reasoning abilities.

    Oh well.

  59. 9-11 truthers crack me right up.

  60. “I think you are naive. Yes, naive. I know your types rather well… one of them happens to be my brother, God bless him. The well-spoken, book-smart genius that cannot fathom anything outside the rigid rules of logic that his brain must be attuned to. You lack street smarts.”

    That has to be the most charmingly stupid, un-self-consciously ironic definition of naive I’ve ever read.

    “You’re naive cuz you don’t believe wild unsubstantiated allegations.”

  61. jackal,

    You had the joke down pat. You had most of us convinced. And then you had to throw in the “larger penises” jab. You flew too high, Icarus, and the wings melted off your joke trolling.

  62. You guys are all missing the much bigger conspiracy:

    Al Gore was behind Katrina.

    That’s right, his henchmen in the Army Corps of Engineers deliberately built the levees too weakly, so that they would collapse, thus giving support to his global warming agenda.

    Also, if you look at the hurricane’s path, it’s clear only an artificial hurricane could have headed directly toward a city.

  63. When it comes to the government messing up, incompetence is the most likely reason. I think that explains 9/11 accurately.

    But, the most likely reason still doesn’t mean the reason. While I find it unlikely, I cannot out of hand dismiss the idea that it was allowed to happen. I don’t think it was, but I certainly don’t feel any conviction that it wasn’t either.

  64. The well-spoken, book-smart genius that cannot fathom anything outside the rigid rules of logic that his brain must be attuned to. You lack street smarts.

    If everyone would just clap hard enough, we can bring the towers back up from the rubble!

  65. Chicago Tom, I agree the “let it happen” idea is less nutty than the government actively carrying it out. But I still don’t think its nearly as probable as the government screwing it up big time.

    Cesar,

    I hear you.
    But here’s my belief. There are lots of career government employees in agencies that are tasked with our security and intelligence gathering etc. And beurocrats are big on covering their ass and making sure they aren’t the fall guy. The type of government “screw-up” that many people want to attribute it to is TOO big to be mere incompetence in my eyes. If it is just incompetence, then it’s criminal incompetence and people should be held accountable. To this point, no one has.

    I remember a lot of people saying things like “well we were caught of guard” or “we were surprised” — well that works for you and I who are nobodies — but if your job is to defend America and you work for government agencies that whose sole purpose is intelligence and security, then “We were caught off guard” is not a believable excuse. That doesn’t cut it for me.

    In the same way that I don’t believe that all of these wrongful convictions and malicious prosecutions that we have seen on this forum are merely “the government screwing up” but instead certain actors have a malicious intent (prosecutors, judges and LEOs who want to look tough on crime or pad their stats for more funding), I also don’t believe that the events of 9/11 were nothing than a mere folly of our government agencies tasked with defending our land.

  66. I am laughing … seriously. Most of you H&R folks are just so goddamn full of yourselves and your notions of truth that you cannot see the forest for the trees.

  67. Cesar,
    So the government always fucks up except if it is in a foreign country? Pol Pot tried to eliminate the educated classes and move everyone to the country and he did it….why is he the one governemnt that didn’t fuck up?

    Have you ever read the House of Morgan or Titan by Ron Chernow? succesful businessmen who are very smart, efficient and competent got tired of having their margins reduced so they promoted socialist politicians who would work with them to set up barriers to entry and protect their profit margins through government/private cooperation. They executed their plans pretty effectively and it is documented history. If you don’t know about then it might be enlightening to you to try reading it.

  68. I hope Carl Weathers becomes governor somewhere. That would complete the Predator trifecta.

  69. If only we were as enlightened and intelligent as you jackal…

  70. I think alot of people want it to come out that our government was responsible for 9/11 and I’m not sure why.

    Because it’s a lot more reassuring to believe that an otherwise benign organization we nominally control occasionally does something monumentally evil than to KNOW a band of cave-dwelling psychos on the other side of the world could f*ck us cross-eyed without us having a clue what was coming.

    Conspiracy theories are essentially expressions of preference for pattern over randomness, necessity over contingency, “logic” over irrationality. Someone brings a whole lot of crazy down on you on September 11th? Well, an over-application of “reason” seems like a good antidote to some people.

    This sort of thinking is kin to the bad karma/blowback school of thought, i.e. “we brought this on ourselves”.

  71. Theres 0% chance the government actively carried it out.

    Theres probably about a 5% chance they “let it happen”.

    95% of chance of simply screwing up.

    Having said that, does that mean the government would exploit 9/11 for their own interests even if they had no idea it was going to happen? Hell yes, they would, and they have.

  72. Forget 9/11 and Katrina, those are small potatoes.

    Our government has been hijacked by a secret cabal of Radical Poseidonists. Through a dark ritual involving human sacrifice, they caused the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people.

    Why? Simple. They want to place dyhydrogen monoxide under strict government control.

    http://www.dhmo.org/

    With DHMO banned, they will control all access to their twisted religion’s primary source of power.

    Open your eyes people! Your government is lying to you!

  73. Seriously … most of you sound like super-smarmy neo-cons that find any suggestion that the government may happen to know what we dont know absolutely foolish … tell me, how does Bill Kristol’s dick taste?

  74. Seeing “jackal” and “Jesse Ventura” in the same thread made me think of this episode.

    I confess that I voted for him and I don’t regret it. Policy-wise he was great on separation of church and state, but did support the light rail boondoggle. Plus he had a habit of pushing somewhat trivial legislation that was transparently about his personal tastes rather than the public good or what voters wanted. At least it was transparent and trivial, which is better than most politicians, IMO.

    The best part of his time in office was seeing how much he constantly pissed off the Republicans, Democrats and press. When he won, the looked of disappointed entitlement on their faces was priceless. And the petty, seething bitterness lasted through his whole term. Good times.

    Now, as far as a presidential run, the guy has more baggage than a 747 full of supermodels. He’s not going to make it far before that stuff comes out.

  75. Cosmo Overlord = Gabe Harris

  76. Cosmo Overlord,

    I guess you do have a point. I did learn something from him, starting from page 5 of this link. He does seem like an intelligent man.

    http://webstorage1.mcpa.virginia.edu/library/mc/mcreport/vol14_num3.pdf

  77. The sad thing is, there are actually people in the Muslim world who think we caused the Tsunami by exploding a nuclear device underwater to kill Muslims.

    Castro even used to say we had some secret machine that would divert hurricaines from the USA to Cuba.

    Jackal-

    The government couldn’t keep Abu Ghirab a secret. They couldn’t plant some WMDs in Iraq. They couldn’t keep the secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe a secret. And on and on.

    Something tells me they couldn’t keep “We let 9/11 happen on purpose” a secret, either.

  78. I don’t know if any of you also post on fark, but there is a picture floating around that sums this up perfectly (face:palm). I guess I am one of those that, lacking proof, is perfectly willing to blame incompetence instead of malice. Do I think we know the whole story? Absolutely not, but the people who think that the building was rigged with explosives or thermite are absolutely batshit crazy. It is much more likely that some mid-level bureaucrat left the memo sitting in his to-do box than some grand collusion at the highest levels of power.

    The really evil shit that the government does is bad enough, no need to ascribe them the powers of a superman and make up conspiracies. Most of the evil shit happened because of mismanagement rather than design anyways.

    (see Waco, Ruby Ridge, armed dynamic entry, Iran Contra, Bay of Pigs, Taliban in Afghanistan, crack in inner cities, Muslim agitation, etc)

    The only really evil conspiracy I can think of (MK ULTRA and other tests on soldiers/citizens) was plagued by mismanagement and only involved mid-level players anyway.

  79. “…most of you sound like super-smarmy neo-cons that find any suggestion that the government may happen to know what we dont know absolutely foolish…”

    Yeah, if there’s one common characteristic of the folks on H&R, it’s a dogged unwillingness to doubt anything said or done by the government. Good call, jackal. Your powers of observation are matched only by your “street smarts.”

  80. “””Imploding is a means of collapsing a building using small explosive charges to weaken the structural integrity. The building doesn’t collapse because of the explosions, it collapses on itself because it can not hold itself up any longer.”””

    I’m well aware of that.

    “””The plane crashes weakened the structural integrity of the WTC. It makes sense that buildings without structural integrity collapse in the same manner.””

    That’s false. Demolition crews have to place explosives in the right places and they are detonated in a specific order to control the collapes. Buildings that lose integrity may not and probably will not fall like a controlled demolition. Which still has nothing to do with the cause

  81. jackal and chicago tom,
    Everyone knows that if you want to demolish a steel framed building all you have to do is set it on fire and that will make it collapse. CDI is a sham corporation that cons suckers into paying for explosive charges, engineering and steel cutting thermite….all you have to do is set the building on fire and it’s structural integrity will weaken and it will fall down. It happens all the time.

    Besides, there is no way the CIA or Mossad or whoever could have gotten past security and rigged up building 7 like that…no way.

  82. PL,

    What? No love for Bill Duke? The man shaves without water!

    How about all four? Quadfecta!

  83. Come on, it’s so obvious: the warmongering FDR administration was just itching for an excuse to attack Japan, but public opinion was heavily against it.

    What are the odds we would totally miss an entire Japanese attack fleet, and that soldiers would happen to be off duty?

    Open your eyes, people!

    And now, 60 years later, we STILL have troops in Japan and Germany. When will this madness end?

  84. “Yeah, if there’s one common characteristic of the folks on H&R, it’s a dogged unwillingness to doubt anything said or done by the government. Good call, jackal. Your powers of observation are matched only by your “street smarts.””

    Win

  85. I think that it is most likely that the govt was simply inept and that the planes brought the towers down on their own.

    However, I do not entirely discount the idea that some group (terrorist or perhaps even made up of insiders (government, business, …)) had some foreknowledge of the attacks and rigged the buildings with explosives or did something to encourage a larger catastrophe. Perhaps this group was behind the whole thing including the plane attacks themselves.

    It could also have been behind the anthrax attacks to ensure that the US people would berzerk and allow all that has come to pass. It seems clear that the planning for the Anthrax attacks came before 9/11

  86. Something tells me they couldn’t keep “We let 9/11 happen on purpose” a secret, either.

    Cesar,

    In fairness, those other “secrets” had far too many players to try and keep it quiet…

    but if what you have are classified Intelligence Estimates that talk about Hijackers potentially using planes to blow up buildings, and you just choose to never pass that on to the proper agencies…that would seem much easier to conceal, no?

  87. cesar … at least you are responding to me with some kind of intelligence. Ok, I will respond to your assertions …and they are well stated and I understand what you are saying. And I agree that the most logical thing to do, given the nature of government, is to assume terminal incompetence. However … that does not negate the possibility that it COULD happen. History is fascinating partly due to the fact that it consists of strange, counterintuitive oddities. The second point I would make, once again, is Pearl Harbor. Please read the link I provided above … it is indeed possible for a SMALL circle of people to keep a secret.

  88. This one’s too easy.

  89. The reality is that the neocons definitely wanted to attack Iraq even before 9/11 happened. This has been documented. (PNAC springs to mind, among other places)

    This is the one part that the troofers more or less have right.

    If you read Woodward’s first Bush book (Bush at War, ithink was the title), which came out in 2002, the very first thing some people at the emergency cabinet meeting on that day bring up is a desire to go after Sadam. It was both surprising and striking to see this when I read the book some months after OIF started.

  90. ChicagoTom-

    I said I give the “let it happen” theory that involves a VERY small group of people at about 5% probability.

    With regards to Pearl Harbor, the theory that FDR let it happen has very teneous support among historians. Again, its possible but not very probable. Our intelligence knew there was going to be a Japanese attack, but they thought it would be at Manila Bay (where we WERE on a war footing, btw), not Pearl Harbor. They didn’t expect the Japanese to be so brazen as to attack a U.S. Territory so far from Japanese shores.

  91. lol … so funny. I dont think H&R people are government loving robots … I just think they share the same denial problems.

  92. This is absurd, nobody that knows anything about demolition thinks there is anything fishy about building 7. Show me one legitimate expert that has the slightest concern!…are you sure your not high TrickyVic?

    The government never ever wants to hurt people or cover things up that is the first rule of being a libertarian.

  93. Occam’s razor.

  94. Did you know Reason is distributed by the Internet…which was created by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency!?!?!?!

    Come on, could it be any more obvious? They are covering up the numerous plots by our all-powerful ultracompetent gov’t has secretly carried out!

    At least a few people in this thread are intelligent, thoughtful, street-smart, and wise enough to see the truth.

    The rest of you are just gov’t sheep. Baa! Baa!

  95. With regards to Building 7, talk to any lawyer worth his salt. In any investigation there are going going to be loose ends and things left unexplained. It does not therefore follow that theres a conspiracy.

  96. First Little Pig,
    “I think that it is most likely that the govt was simply inept and that the planes brought the towers down on their own. ”

    Exactly, there was a third plane that hit WTC 7 that most people didn’t see and the media didn’t talk about it and it helped bring down that tower.

  97. Hey “Inside Job” … was funny at first. Then just a bit amusing. Now, neither. Not so much.

  98. Mwahahahahaha! You’ll never find the evidence!!

    It was the perfect crime, and I would have gotten away with it cleanly if not for you meddling kids.

    But don’t worry, soon you will disappear, just like all the Jews we warned on Sept 10.

  99. roiaij,

    You take that back! Everyone knows that Al Gore created the internet.

    blasphemer!

  100. Isn’t it obvious? The government is sending out these people like Jesse Ventura and Carlos to make really dumb arguments about how the gov’t was behind 9/11… in order to distract us from the REAL evidence they were behind 9/11!

    Nice try, Carlos. Your little CIA hijinks may have fooled the rest of the Reason crowd, but my mind is too strong for your Jedi tricks.

  101. Ockham’s razor, yes the simplest explanation is that the government is telling the truth(as it normally is) and that you should have no suspicions for those who wish to send your sons to die in a decades long global war on terrorism.

  102. Paleotarain Dipshit-

    No, people are saying that the government isn’t smart enough to lie very well and is generally unable to keep secrets. You, on the other hand, assume perfect competence from the government.

  103. I despite Truthers. All of their “evidence” comes from secrecy itself, not from anything that actually happened. They have wild imaginations that create connections where there are none.

    And the more reasonable voices such as “jackal the carlos” would be shouted down at a Truther gathering. It’s not enough to suggest government foreknowledge or incompetence by one or two individuals — 9/11 MUST be part of a BigConspiracy to let teh immigrants TakeOver tehCountry.

    Read Nozick re: the “hidden hand” (i.e., the assertion of connections where there are none)

  104. Cesar …why so absolutist? i am very curious as to that line of reasoning… incompetence does not drive out the ability to get lucky in plotting something evil.

  105. *despise

  106. even retards can premeditate a murder

  107. By the way, Carlos, H&R is not the usual Internet conspiracy nutjob circle jerk where small dick comments are de rigeur. This is H&R. On behalf of the Reason Select Sub Committee on Penis Apathy, we really don’t care about the size of your John Thomas. If it’s truly a monster, we’re content that you simply don’t let it terrorize the local villages.

    As for Occam, conspiracy is a complex theory. A terrorist attack in response to U.S. foreign policy and abetted by government incompetence is relatively simple by comparison.

  108. Ockham’s razor = rejecting the fallacy that just because X allowed Y to happen means that X intended Y and all of Y’s consequences.

  109. Cesar | April 8, 2008, 2:09pm | #

    “With regards to Building 7, talk to any lawyer worth his salt. In any investigation there are going going to be loose ends and things left unexplained. It does not therefore follow that theres a conspiracy.”

    That’s what I’m saying, any good lawyer will tell you that if someone asks about a loose end that it is best to just ignore it and don’t release the evidence you have to answer the question. That is why lawyers should advise the government to not show the video tapes of the Pentagon cash and to just not mention NIST studies about WTC 7.

  110. Yes jackal, retards can premeditate a murder. And they are almost always caught by the police.

  111. Lusitania was an inside job!
    Maine was an inside job!
    Little Big Horn was an inside job!
    Fort Sumter was an inside job!
    The Alamo was an inside job!
    The Boston Massacre was an inside job!

  112. Paleotarian Dipshit-

    I’m not a structural engineer, nor do I play one on the internet. What about you?

  113. I knew it was coming. I heard their wispers. I saw the plans to destroy the towers and kidnap the children for the underground alien factories. AND THEY KILLED ME.

    Now give me some sweet juicy brains.

  114. Cosmotarian — Tapes of the Pentagon crash? There were REAL PEOPLE who died. These people ARE GONE. It’s stupid and disrespectful to suggest that no, these weren’t people, they just made those people up so they could shoot laser beams or whatever.

  115. No no no Democratic Republican, they’re keeping them in secret prisons in Eastern Europe and/or Guantanamo! /sarcasm

  116. Didn’t the government keep the Manhattan project a pretty big secret? nevermind, that is just a tinfoil hat theory, the government doesn’t have nuclear bombs.

  117. damn it…I’ve been duped AGAIN. I surrender to the paleolibertarians and their infinitely great and vast gnostic wisdom that gives them insight into the inner workings of the world.

  118. Gabe-

    Actually, they couldn’t keep the Manhattan Project a secret. The Soviets found out about it, and stole technology from us.

    Try again.

  119. I’m with Chicago Tom.

    Am I the only person who remembers that Ashcroft said he wasn’t flying public carriers in the summer of 2001? I remember it then…

    BUT, I do not think that Bush, et al did this. I do think it is entirely possible that “they” wanted to let something happen, but never in their wildest dreams did it occur to them that it wouldn’t be OKC sized, but instead took down the WTC.

    Incompetence and hubris, though, are probably the big problems.

  120. Gabe: So…Zacari and the others were on the government payroll?

    Because unless they were, the analogy is false. Letting idiots do something and hiring them to do it are two different things (not that I think EITHER happened).

  121. The sad thing is, there are actually people in the Muslim world who think we caused the Tsunami by exploding a nuclear device underwater to kill Muslims.

    The sad thing to me is, the fact that there are actually religious people who think God caused the Tsunami to punish evil people. Even sadder is the fact that most of the people I’ve heard espouse that POV were Muslim clerics.

  122. Nom-nom-nom.

    Not much brains among the troothers.

  123. Operation New Hope was an inside job!

  124. 9/11 was a Plot by our KKK-controlled Government in order to kill Blacks. Blaming the Arabs is just more Racism.

    Also, I really like Hamas. Does anyone have a Letter praising them for our next church flyer?

  125. I blame the French.

  126. Demo republican,
    I think Cosmo was saying that the Pentagon could clear up a lot of conspiracy theories by realeasing all the tapes they confiscated that would have shown the plane hitting the Pentagon, but they have refused to release them based on national security. Nobody is saying people didn’t die there that day.
    Apparently they are working under the theory that hiding evidence is the best way to clean up loose ends that any lawyer will tell you are inevitable.

  127. Gabe: well, then I would agree with that. that’s what i meant when i said most of this turmoil is caused more by secrecy than what actually happened. Sorry for misunderstanding.

  128. Yes Demo Republican, the Paleotarians clearly are all expert structural engineers, lawyers, and great students of history who can peer into the secret inner workings of the world. We must bow to their superior knowledge.

  129. ‘releasing the tapes showing the plane hitting the pentagon’

    hey dumbass they have.

  130. jackal, your arguments have been well and truly debunked so many times that there is a lengthy Wikipedia page detailing the flaws.

  131. Cesar,
    Well this isn’t a secret either because Germanys head of defense and the Italian prime minister both say it was an inside job.

    As for who is on what payroll, your getting ridiculous, I just want to see a real investigation. Numerous books do state that Osama Bin Laden has gotten some CIA money though, I hope that isn’t too hard for you to track down.

  132. Ok, I will try a new tack, and it’s just to see where your minds are… do you think the government knows anything about ufo’s?

  133. Kolohe | April 8, 2008, 2:32pm | #

    ‘releasing the tapes showing the plane hitting the pentagon’

    hey dumbass they have.

    In that case, I retract my apology. πŸ™‚ You can see how much I worry about all of this…

  134. Wow, I haven’t seen a thread go crazypants like this in a while.

    jackal the carlos,

    Just so you know, most of the people who post here regularly base their opinions on observable fact. The various emotional appeals and ad hominem arguments you have used do not convince people of a logical mind.

    It might work on LGF or Freeper forums, but that shit doesn’t fly here.

    In addition, shouting more loudly does not make your point any more true or false. This is not talk radio.

    When you pose a theory that by all measures of common sense is… unusual, it is expected that you prove this by some observable evidence. Spouting out a rather unconvincing list of coincidences does not meet an acceptable argumentative standard in any real debate forum, and to demand such only prevents others from taking you seriously.

  135. Gabe: Ya, he got CIA money — during that whole thing where we sent him money to help fight the Soviets in Afghanistan (you may have seen this in Rambo III).

  136. I think the “UFOs” were probably either spy planes from the Soviet Union or experimental aircraft.

  137. I’m no truther, but the mass sneering which always clogs these 9/11 threads saddens me a bit. I guess maybe it could be because people are tired of talking about it (and there’s no deprogramming a truther; that’s a depressing fact of post 9/11 life).

  138. Taktix … ahhh, observable. Define observable. Do you believe Abraham Lincoln existed? can you observe that fact?

  139. so secrecy from the american people on this is obstruction of justice in my book….prison time for some high level government officials.

    Kolohe,
    there are lots of tapes they haven’t released you can choose to read about it or not. There are dozens of reagan, bush and carter administration officials, civil engineers, ex CIA, ex-generals, military pilots etc who say that the official story is so contradictory and indicative of a cover up that a better independently appointed commission needs to be set up. You really want me to do a data dump again? I won’t but if your curious you can checkout ….

    http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

    I’m gone for today I swear…i think i can

  140. Jim Bob: I think the last thing explains where I’m at. Arguing with a Truther is no different than arguing with any other fundamentalist.

    Jackal: Re: aliens. Have you read Roswell, Texas by L. Neil Smith? If so, you’ll know where I’m at on that issue. πŸ™‚

  141. Jim Bob-

    I sneer at the troofers who say the government actually actively carried it out because they deserve to be sneered at.

    I can see where the “let it happen” people are coming from even if I don’t buy it, though.

  142. “do you think the government knows anything about ufo’s?”

    Don’t you think a better question would be are you aware of any compelling evidence regarding UFOs and govt involvement?

    It’s the whole evidence concept that you seem to be missing out on. Like when you stated as “well established and incontrovertible fact” that higher ups in the govt knew about Pearl Harbor, but when J sub D asked you for evidence you responded “Prove me wrong.” If that’s your response when asked for evidence of such dramatic claim, you might as well get a tattoo on your forehead that says “I’m a gullible moron.”

  143. JimBob … tell me, which side here is really sneering?

  144. WHY do patriots question 9/11? What difference would it make if I woke up tomorrow and agreed with you, Gabe?

    Would I oppose the Patriot Act more or less? Would I oppose the war in Iraq more or less?
    Would I value limited government and civil liberties more or less?

    What actual difference does it make?

  145. Sparky … did you read the link I provided? If not, read it and then talk to me.

  146. do you think the government knows anything about ufo’s?

    Wouldn’t that make them IFO’s?

  147. they won’t engage in any UFO talk with you now, they just repeat troofer until someone jumps in and says your a anti-semite…then it’s all over.

    As for me I pretty much don’t beleive space ships from other planets have been here for awhile…those freaky aztec carvings with the planes and the little windows…what do you think they were?

  148. Good call, jackal. Your powers of observation are matched only by your “street smarts.”

    Au contraire. I’ve already mentioned his social skills and reasoning abilities.

    Gabe Harris, glad you could make it! It wouldn’t be a conspiracy party without you.

  149. You really want me to do a data dump again?

    Not particularly. I have a feeling the proprieters of this site will dump you if you do it again, but of course, it’s their call to make.

  150. Kolohe | April 8, 2008, 2:32pm | #

    There are many more tapes that show the event and the one or two that they released were of horrible quality. Even someone with casual knowledge of truthers knows their argument on this one. The tapes that were released were of piss poor quality. All the other tapes surrounding the area that were physically confiscated by the Feds shortly after the plane hit the Pentagon have yet to be released.

    I’ve watched the released tapes, and as someone who believes that a plane hit the Pentagon, I was disappointed because they are not trying to quiet the missile and lazer beam wackjobs. They have to have much better footage that shows a plane hitting the Pentagon to finally put some of these wackjobs to rest.

  151. Didn’t the government keep the Manhattan project a pretty big secret? nevermind, that is just a tinfoil hat theory, the government doesn’t have nuclear bombs.

    Glad you brought that up. Two years after Trinity, the USSR had the technical details of the A-bomb. Two years. Not a hell of a lot of secret keeping ability displayed there.

  152. j sub … what would a discussion like this be without your idiotic commentary … fucking asshole. J sub, suck a dick, ok? Seriously … suck a goddamn big African dick, swallow the cum, vomit, and then die. Scum.

  153. I love it when the argument reaches this stage, otherwise known as “Argument by Self-Selected Link”. The best part is that no counterargument can be valid unless and until you have read said link in full.

    I’m shocked that Dave W. hasn’t shown yet with his twist.

  154. Deliberations of the secret planners making secret plans:

    Yeah, guys, even if we ignore those terrorists and let them hijack planes and fly them into the twin towers it won’t be a spectacular enough tragedy to inflame the people. Get SpecOps to put some charges in the basement to make sure the motherfucker’s blowed up real good.

    Wait, that won’t be good enough. Put some charges in Building 7 too. Bringing down two one-hundred-and-one story office towers and killing thousands of people just aint good enough. But that little 47 story jobber ‘ll do the trick. Yessirree. We got us a plan.

    Just wanted to see if that looked as stupid typed out as it sounded in my head.

    It does.

  155. And your ‘patriots’ site does what Jones does as discussed above vis a vis Ventura – takes some comments of context to shoehorn them into a narrow preconceived narrative. The ‘patriots’ are not ‘questioning 9/11.’ They are giving various opions, most of which do not in any way contradict the accepted notions of what occured that day.

  156. Quick note to the troofers:

    Buildings are designed to distribute weight downward. If they weren’t, they’d fall over with a stiff wind. Even if one were to tie a huge chain around the top of the building and try to topple it by pulling it over, it still would have collapsed downwardly because:

    A: Gravity
    B: The structures apt lack of adequate reinforcement against horizontal stress, a stress which would have increased exponentially were the building’s horizontal plane become vertical.

    The reason some might perceive the buildings to have “imploded” is because several floors of structural steel were melted away.

    It happened fairly evenly, as all combustibles on the floors in question were ignited almost instantaneously by gallons upon gallons of exploding jet fuel rapidly spreading out through Diffusion.

    Why did the other buildings fall down? Try this: Slam your fist on you desk right now. See how some items on your desk moved? See how some may have even fallen down?

    That’s just your hand. Imagine the weight of the top 1/3rd of one of the tallest buildings in the world slamming down less than a few hundred feet away.

    Now, I seldom use the following statement, as it is often used as an appeal to emotion to prove an irrelevant point. But right now, it is relevant and appropriate.

    Jackal, you truly are dishonoring the memories of 3000 people by using their tragic death to advance some baseless, unscientific, crack-job theory. You, sir, are a stain on humanity.

    Fuck you.

  157. JimBob … tell me, which side here is really sneering?

    Sneer –
    intransitive verb
    1 : to smile or laugh with facial contortions that express scorn or contempt
    2 : to speak or write in a scornfully jeering manner

    Def. 2 would include me. Why do you ask?

  158. Do you believe Abraham Lincoln existed? can you observe that fact?

    Yes. We have these things called “pictures.”

    Oh, and they didn’t have photoshop back then.

  159. As a matter of fact jackal, I have seen that story before (or some very similar variant), and I imagine most other folks here have as well. It sure is some interesting circumstantial evidence. Nothing terribly compelling, but at least it vaguely resembles evidence. Which makes it all the more baffling that your initial response was “prove me wrong;” and that, with your credibility already in the toilet, you chose to hit flush by speculating about J sub D’s ass crack and pretending you were making the same logical point as he was.

    Oh, and then when I was previewing this comment I saw your 2:45pm comment; that’s probably just about enough for me. Have a super day, and don’t forget to wipe the frothing drool off your chin before you go out in public.

  160. PC @ 2:44pm

    The problem is that even if you display a Bay / Schumaker (sp?) quality production of the event, the same people will cry ‘shopped! CGI!’

    I don’t think there would be to many personal camcorder-style videos anyaway (as opposed to security footage, which would be at best over a mile away in crystal city across I-395, so no higher quality)

    Any tourist around there (when it was a little too early for most of them anyway) would see a bunch of planes taking off and landing a Nat’l airport – which from most sightlines look like there about to strike the buildings anyway due to the course they follow along the bends of the Potomac. So few would even notice to spin their camera around until they actually heard the crash.

  161. j sub … what would a discussion like this be without your idiotic commentary … fucking asshole. J sub, suck a dick, ok? Seriously … suck a goddamn big African dick, swallow the cum, vomit, and then die. Scum.

    I am touched. Alas, I fear I’m wounded to core by jackal’s witty repartee. Don’t mourn me my friends, just carry on the fight without me. And give my love to Rose.

  162. jsub … yes, I do include you.
    taxtix … how do you know that is actuallAbe Lincoln in those photos?? … you are only observing photos that someone says are pics of Abe Lincoln.

  163. Well, there are photos, documents from the time that have been authenticated, the fact that he has descedents, the fact that the CSA and slavery doesn’t exist anymore, and on and on.

    Thats a really shitty argument.

  164. how do you know that is actuallAbe Lincoln in those photos??

    For that matter, how do you even know you exist to be looking at those photos?

  165. Sparky … u THINK you are clever. Alas, no cigar for you. And for all of those who seem to think that I support the Ventura/Nelson/moonbat theory of 9/11 … read my fucking comments before you riposte. It makes you look like a goddamn idiot to claim that I am lumped in with them otherwise. And you cannot differentiate between the group that believes in controlled demolitions and those that claim government foreknowledge of 9/11, fuck you.

  166. Guys, this is just sad. It’s turned into this. Leave the crazy person alone.

  167. I never got the big deal about Building 7 either. What would the government get from bringing it down? Isn’t collapsing the two towers spectacular enough? I mean, come on.

  168. Cesar … hmmm. Interesting. FYI, I believe that he existed … I am trying to lead you to the obvious: where there is smoke there is fire.

  169. For that matter, how do you even know you exist to be looking at those photos?

    Cogito, ergo sum?

  170. Did anyone ever answer my question about WHY any of this matters anyway?

  171. It’s amazing how those who claim they are searching for the “Truth” will never read a debunking article. Their minds are made up so there is no need to examine any evidence that does not confirm their belief.

    But for the rest of you, here are some good debunking and conspiracy links:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/911myths/
    http://www.debunking911.com/index.html
    http://www.911myths.com/
    http://wtc.nist.gov/
    http://www.debunker.com/conspiracy.html

  172. Demo Repub-

    If it turned out tomorrow the federal government carried out that attack, I don’t know about you but I’d want the entire federal government tried and executed as traitors.

    It’d change my views a lot.

  173. Brandybuck: I printed that Popular Mechanics article and made copies and regularly distribute it to Truthers. πŸ™‚

  174. Guys, this is just sad. It’s turned into this.

    Make up your mind, SugarFree, because that video was clearly hilarious, and not at all sad.

  175. I only came into this thread because I thought “The Body” referred to Elle McPherson. I am now going to back slowly towards the door and leave the crazy people to have at it.

  176. Whenever I mention that article to troofers, Demo, they say it doesn’t count because Popular Mechanics is owned by the Neocon Hearst Corporation, who is in on the conspiracy as well.

  177. Kolohe | April 8, 2008, 2:57pm | #

    The same people would cry CG because their paychecks depend on it, but not all people would. We need to bring some of these people back to reality. If they just release every tape or the majority of tapes they confiscated then that puts the burden on the truthers to explain, not on the government to release the tapes, and that is a big help to those of us who want to rhetorically bring these people back to earth.

    Much of what you say seem to be excuses why they might not or can’t, but I haven’t heard that coming from them. Living in DC, if you just count the amount of cameras you pass on a three block walk you will need more than two hands most of the time. Personally I’d be interested to see that crazy turning descent prior to hitting the Pentagon. From what I hear that is a difficult move and would be interested if they caught any of that on tape.

  178. That makes sense. Although, ironically, you’re not a Truther. πŸ™‚

    But the thing is, the feds have done nefarious things over the centuries and decades and there have been no repurcussions. So why would this really be any different?

  179. I never got the big deal about Building 7 either. What would the government get from bringing it down? Isn’t collapsing the two towers spectacular enough? I mean, come on.

    No, you see the gov’t knew that people would deduce that there was no reason to collapse Building 7, so the conspiracy collapsed it to further cloak itself.

    The government is operating on a way higher yomi layer than the rest of us.

  180. The Democratic Republican,
    What difference would it make if Joe woke up tomorrow and agreed that the Social Security program is bad?

    or if Dondero woke up and thought Matt Welch’s advocating a “war on terror” was bad?

    That is to say, you are right it would make very very very little difference in the world, maybe even zero difference.

    Hell it would probably be bad for all of us, because it would ecourage me to come here even more instead of doing real things.

    but since we are arguing about it and some of you are acting like no engineers or knowledgable ex-CIA employees or military pilots think there is a coverup, well I was hoping if that is what you believe then you’d look at the evidence to the contrary. I’ve looked at it and I don’t believe the 9/11 commission is telling the truth. I could always be wrong, but the only people I know who have actually looked at all the different evidence have come down ont he side of we are being lied to. The hate and snearing comes from those who watch one hour of the popular mechanics show on the history channel and have never even seen a video of WTC 7 fall.

    The 9/11 commission seemed to be a concerted effort from the beginning to coverup the truth.(from at first refusing to investigate, then appointing Kissinger, then him quiting after they asked if Bin laden was a client etc.
    Zelikow was on NPR saying his goal from the beginning was to look at the Warren commission and try to avoid the things they did that led to accusations of a coverup. This sounded to me like his initial goal was not to find the truth, but to effectively quash conspiracy theories…and his model was a notoriously big coverup commission. I talked to a girl on the commision and she got really pissed when I asked any “non-trusting questions” and refused to talk to me anymore.

    It is amazing that not believing the government gets some libertarains so upset.

    http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

  181. Cesar | April 8, 2008, 3:06pm | #

    Whenever I mention that article to troofers, Demo, they say it doesn’t count because Popular Mechanics is owned by the Neocon Hearst Corporation, who is in on the conspiracy as well.

    Same here Cesar. Like I said, arguing with fundies always takes the same direction.

  182. What the hell is wrong with you people? Would you go to McPherson Square and debate with the schizophrenic homeless? Why the fuck bother to argue with people who are obviously crazy?

  183. Let’s see if I understand the truthers’ theory:

    Our incompetent federal government, full of bureaucrats who try to cover their ass at all times, acquired specific, actionable intelligence about a plan for foreigners who hate the U.S. to fly planes into buildings, including the exact date and the exact buildings, and instead of stopping this nefarious deed, the government actively aided and abetted this plan by wrapping the buildings in high explosives, buildings including the WTC, White House, and Pentagon, so as to help these terrorists, and then after the planes hit the WTC ignited the explosives, but didn’t do so for the White House or Pentagon, and removed the explosives from the White House and Pentagon afterwards, and this massive conspiracy that would have involved hundreds if not thousands of people throughout the federal government was not discovered by any janitors, security guards, etc. not in on the plot, and not one of these hundreds or thousands of insiders has come forward and revealed what happened.

    Yes, that seems likely.

    /sarcasm

  184. I sneer at the troofers who say the government actually actively carried it out because they deserve to be sneered at.

    You’re right, I agree.

  185. The sad thing to me is, the fact that there are actually religious people who think God caused the Tsunami to punish evil people. Even sadder is the fact that most of the people I’ve heard espouse that POV were Muslim clerics.

    Isaac, you must not have been paying attention.

    Christians are just as bad.

    The Falwell-types blamed the gays for 9/11 and the Tsunamis. Apprently God was punishing humans for capitulating to TEH GAY agenda and our lack of moral standing and our embrace of Hedonism.

  186. “It is amazing that not believing the government gets some libertarains so upset.”
    Gabe … AMEN.

  187. Cesar,

    It’d change my views a lot.

    I’m not getting on you, but the pessimist side of me, OptimismFree if you will, thinks a few fucktards would scream Bush did the right thing, and most would quickly be distracted by Britney’s flabby vadge ravaging San Diego. The Troofers, like all conspiracy nuts, mistake personal enthusiasm’s relation to consensual reality. (Hint: There is none.)

  188. I’m upset that you actually (stupidly) believe the government can carry out an elaborate, secret plan with perfect percision and have nobody squeal to the media for money and/or fame.

  189. Gabe: I think you’re on to something. Because it’s not really about the truth, is it? It’s not about “believing” the government. It’s about some people being so determined to see the world through the lens of a particular theory that they become divorced from all reality.

    It is the very hallmark of fundamentalism — building Rube Goldberg machines of logic in order to preserve the thing you WANT to be true.

    And just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I HAVEN’T looked at evidence to the contrary. That logical fallacy really pisses me off.

  190. “””This is absurd, nobody that knows anything about demolition thinks there is anything fishy about building 7. Show me one legitimate expert that has the slightest concern!…are you sure your not high TrickyVic? “””

    I think you’re high. I don’t think there is anything fishy about #7 or the WTC attacks in general. I have no problem with the offical story.

  191. SugarFree-

    If they said they did 9/11 and the entire administration wasn’t hanging from lamposts by sunset, it’d be a very sad day.

    I think the Pentagon would at least send troops to arrest them.

  192. what the hell is libertarian about your position on this, fellow h&r posters? You seem very very eager to buy the government line on this … just answer this: is the government telling you the truth about 9/11?

  193. Troofers: Here is Proof at last:

    http://www.theonion.com/content/video/9_11_conspiracy_theories

    Good lord, people! From where, oh where, do the Trolls come?

    Thank god some of you with a little more time on your hands (than me today) can respond to these posts.

  194. “It makes you look like a goddamn idiot to claim that I am lumped in with them otherwise. And you cannot differentiate between the group that believes in controlled demolitions and those that claim government foreknowledge of 9/11, fuck you.”

    That’s nice, jackal. I’m not sure you’re the best judge of who looks intelligent or rational, but that’s OK. And I never made any claims about demolition vs. foreknowledge of 9/11, but you’re a very special person so you can go ahead and keep pretending otherwise. Your seemingly inevitable descent into poor grammar and gratuitous profanity don’t do much for your credibility either, but that’s OK too because it was already gone long before that.

  195. Cesar: I agree. That’s always been the kicker to me — it’s not inconceivable that the feds engineered something (even though it contradicts the facts); it IS completely impossible that somebody wouldn’t have said something to a quasi-reputable media source (and Prison Planet doesn’t count — not because I disagree with it, but because it is not an objectively credible news source).

  196. …but the only people I know who have actually looked at all the different evidence have come down ont he side of we are being lied to.

    The conspirationist motto!

  197. Jackal-

    No, Jackal, I don’t believe them. I think the government was even more incompetent than they admit to being in the official report.

  198. that is not to say that you should buy into every crazy theory being floated about… I just have a hard time understanding your eagerness to dismiss any line but the government line on this one.

  199. The presumed natural “alliance” between Troofers and libertarians is really quite a huge insult to libertarians.

    They think we are crazy like they are. They become incensed when we won’t play along.

  200. Maybe Jackal’s right! The Bush administration is clearly not clever enough to pull this off.
    Wasn’t Hillary Clinton in office when the plan to bring down the towers was conceived? Isn’t she to blame?

    Vote Ron Paul!

    CB

  201. Sparky … check your own grammar. Fuckface.

  202. P.S. My favorite “troof” is the one that states there was actually no plane that flew into the Pentagon.

  203. Is this Special Olympics Day at H&R?

  204. jackal the carlos | April 8, 2008, 3:15pm | #

    what the hell is libertarian about your position on this, fellow h&r posters? You seem very very eager to buy the government line on this … just answer this: is the government telling you the truth about 9/11?

    Why does being libertarian require me to think everybody in government is lying to me all the time? Jefferson wasn’t a Truther. Neither were Locke, Nozick, Madison, Coolidge, etc. They didn’t believe the feds were controlled by some global “cabal.” Yet they still managed to find a way to believe in limited government.

  205. “you seem very very eager to buy the government line on this …”

    OK, my last post – no one is talking about “buying the government line” on this or anything else. We’re talking about _not_ buying any random half-assed bullshit with no corroborating evidence. Again, the whole evidence thing obviously has you completely baffled, jackal. Believe it or not, there actually is a middle ground between accepting the govt line and accepting half-assed conspiracy theories. You should visit it sometime. It’s sunny and there are lots of puppies.

    “Fuckface.”

    Never lose that class, jackal. Yer gonna be a star!

  206. I’m kind of glad we got a troofer/troll in today. I got reamed in a morning meeting and needed to blow off some intellectual steam…

  207. The only point I ever tried to make here was this: it is possible that certain elements of the U.S. government had foreknowledge of 9/11, and did nothing to stop it from occurring. If that makes me crazy, so be it. I am happy to be a crazy …

  208. Kool-

    My favorite troof came from some troofer that actually came up to me in a bar(!) and told me that there weren’t even any planes that hit the Pentagon!

    No, it was all a controlled explosion and a computer hologram projected from the International Space Station made it SEEM like there were planes.

    The ticket holders who were supposed to be on the planes were all transferred to Guantanamo and murdered, btw. Thats why they don’t exist anymore.

    Hows that for crazy? I think that takes the cake as the best troof ever invented.

  209. Qbryzan,

    I was trying to look at it from the baby’s point of view. But then the baby probably didn’t have it coming.

  210. Er, should read, there weren’t even any planes that hit the TOWERS.

  211. and yes, I do believe that if you cannot at least entertain that as a possibility, you are naive and misguided. Selah.

  212. Jackal: yes, that is YOUR only point, but 1) there is no widely recognized proof that you are correct and 2) most of the people who are sympathetic to your point are going to go a mile past your point and tell YOU that YOU refuse to believe the truth.

  213. DemRepub … I understand that. I know … I have already had a Truther tell me that i was unwittingly part of the conspiracy. But this does seem to be one big case of guilt by association… and I dont even associate with them! I dare to question the official government line, and I am labeled a wacko.

  214. no…I think most people are frustrated with you because you’re playing pretty fast and loose with physics and epistemology and drawing evidence from pretty questionable sources and theories.

  215. oh, and you call people “fuckfaces” etc.

  216. another thing that i am trying to present is this: what is demonstrable truth? So much of what we claim to “know” as truth is certainly not demonstrable. We will fight until the bitter end to claim that our POV is backed up by the precepts of the scientific method, and yet so little of what we believe can be subjected to those rigors of proof.

  217. DemRepub… answer this: what is so questionable about claiming that our government may have known about 9/11?

  218. jackal the carlos | April 8, 2008, 1:32pm | #
    J sub D … there are 50,185 stinging nettles in your ass-crack. Prove me wrong. Congratulations … you got the point. You can no more prove me wrong than I can prove you wrong. We are left to reason what the facts are … proof is never positive.

    You’re the one that starting attacking people. Don’t be surprised when they retaliate.

    Fuck it, I’m out, enjoy your crazypants thread.

  219. Cesar: I never got the big deal about Building 7 either.

    prolefeed: Let’s see if I understand the truthers’ theory:

    I answered those questions at 2:47pm.

    Although Stretch did even better at 3:07pm.

    (tips hat)

  220. Taxtix … lame. Very lame. Thats an attack? Ohhhh, so sensitive!

  221. hold on… brb … time for a lap-dance.

  222. Didn’t the government keep the Manhattan project a pretty big secret? nevermind, that is just a tinfoil hat theory, the government doesn’t have nuclear bombs.

    Everyone in Santa Fe knew SOMETHING was going on up north. But there was a war on, and everyone also knew that “loose lips sink ships”. So they didn’t ask any questions. Everyone also knew about it afterwards.

    The secrecy around the Manhattan project was absurdly simple compared to the complex web of secrets necessary for 9/11 to have been an inside job.

  223. Isaac,

    And launch a missile at the Pentagon while you’re at it. Buildings in the center of New York full of thousands of civilians might not give us the outrage we need to wage a foreign war. We ought to stage an attack on a legitimate military target, too. THAT ought to piss off the American public.

  224. ChicagoTom

    I realize that Christians said the same thing. That’s why I said “most of the people I’ve heard espouse that POV were Muslim clerics.”

    I’m going by an actual NPR show which interviewed various religious figures.

    None of the Christian ministers they selected held that view. Two of the three Muslim clerics did. I was rather shocked.

    I hope that NPR was simply a victim of a poor selection set. Otherwise a lot of my preconceptions are wrong.

  225. what is so questionable about claiming that our government may have known about 9/11?

    Here’s my question: what’s the evidence?

  226. uh, fyodor … read that question again, carefully observe the tenth word in the sentence, and then feel free to comment. All of us would love evidence of everything … but gosh-darnit, most of the time we have to rely upon reason and a word that most libertarians are very afraid of … faith. Not every truth is attended by evidence.

  227. t IS completely impossible that somebody wouldn’t have said something to a quasi-reputable media source

    Would it be possible that they tried but were rebuffed by mainstream corporate media?

    Kind of the same way people who were against the war and didn’t believe Iraq had WMDs or that Saddam was involved in 9/11 also didn’t get much face time on the TV or coverage on mainstream outlets during the run-up to war?

    We know that the press corps have sat on stories of illegal spying on Americans for at least a year at the request of gov’t officials. (the “liberal” NY TIMES admitted as much)

    We know that the press was loathe to show many of the voices of people who were against the war. (Check out this interesting post by Glenn Greenwald discussing Peter Jenning’s reaction to IRaqis who didn’t think the Iraq war was THE BEST WAR ever)

    We know that the press corps was loathe to fact check government rhetoric about the war post 9/11

    So what would make people believe that these “quasi-respectable” sources of news would give any air time to someone claiming that the government was in on 9/11 in some way shape orr form?

    Not that this proves that they did, but if your argument is that “it cant be true cuz someone would have leaked it to the press” — I call bullshit. The mainstream press wouldn’t touch a story like that without a smoking gun and then some.

  228. fyodor

    If I had evidence, it wouldn’t be a secret conspiracy, would it?

    Duh!

  229. Wow, who would have though jackass the carlos would give almost the same answer as me.

    I was kidding though. Just in case nobody got that. πŸ™‚

  230. ChicagoTom-

    The media certainly bought into Watergate didn’t they?

  231. The media certainly bought into Watergate didn’t they?

    That was a different time wasn’t it Cesar? There was less corporate owned mainstream media outlets, they hadn’t gutted their investigative budgets to the same extent, and they didn’t rely on the wires as much as today.

    And even at the time, only the WaPo was really pushing the story, many mainstream papers were reluctant to cover Watergate.

    Sure they bought it….kicking and screaming all the way. And that was back when the press didn’t act like high priced stenographers whose main priority is “balance” in a news piece

  232. Well ChicagoTom, they also bought into Iran-Contra, Whitewater, and the Monica Lewisnky scandal, as well as Plamegate.

  233. Isaac,

    with a sample size of 3 — it’s pretty safe to say that 66.66% of Muslims believe that the West’s moral decay caused Katrina, Tsunami etc?

    Is that what you are implying?

    Falwell and Robertson, both people who have a HUGE flock of believers, and who GOP politicians pander to like crazy, believed that Tsunami and Katrina and 9/11 were God’s punishment for tolerating gays and hedonism.

    What notions does that leave you with?

  234. And launch a missile at the Pentagon while you’re at it.

    Ooh ooh!!

    And shoot down an airliner in the middle of Pennsylvania. Because the rest of those things just don’t work without the airliner in the middle of Pennsylvania.

    Ooh ooh!!

    And to top it off we’ll fabricate all these phone calls that we claim are from people on the planes. Get Evil Plans Central Casting working on hiring the actors.

    Oh, and it’ll be a great touch if you can work in a gay rugby player in there somewhere.

    Hop to it people, we got a world to take over!!

  235. but gosh-darnit, most of the time we have to rely upon reason and a word that most libertarians are very afraid of … faith…Not every truth is attended by evidence.

    Your argument is that you believe the government knew about 9/11 because you have faith that the government knew about 9/11.

    If there be truths unattended by evidence, we oughtn’t believe them, because the only way of sorting information for truth is through evidence. It certainly may be true that we have alien overlords pulling our puppet strings, but given that there’s no evidence to support this proposition, it’s a ridiculous thing to believe.

  236. I just don’t get the reference to falling “at the speed of gravity.” What do they expect?

  237. Well ChicagoTom, they also bought into Iran-Contra, Whitewater, and the Monica Lewisnky scandal, as well as Plamegate.

    I guess I am failing to see your point?

    Just because some stuff gets covered, that proves everything gets covered? IS life all or nothing? I don’t see what your counter examples are proving other than the fact that the press is highly selective

    Furthermore, you don’t think after 9/11 the media would be rather skittish about giving time to someone who tried to imply that the government let it happen? Really?

  238. ChicagoTom

    I thought I explained my reluctance to draw any hard conclusions from what I heard.

    If I failed, so be it. It was just some random musing.

  239. Yep, it’s retard day.
    Damn, I forgot my helmet.

  240. Isaac,

    I inferred from your last post about the topic that the fact that 2/3 mulsim clerics chosen by NPR validated your preconceptions that Muslims by and large believe this.

    it may have been me who misunderstood…
    if so I apologize

  241. But to expand a little bit. I already knew what Falwell, Robinson et al thought.

    I just hadn’t heard what Muslim clerics thought before.

    And like I said, without some further information, I hesitate to draw firm conclusions.

    But what I heard I found disturbing.

  242. ok fucktards, class is in session … listen closely and you may learn something. Today’s lesson begins with this question: How many fingers am I holding up?

  243. ChicagoTom, if someone were to come forward no with real evidenece that the government was behind it and/or let it happen you could bet your ass any mainstream newspaper would publish it the next day. Do you realize how much fame and money they’d get? Same with the guy who would leak it. He’d be an American hero, get all kinds of money and book deals, etc. The incentives to squeal would be huge.

  244. … validated your preconceptions that Muslims by and large believe this.

    This should read
    … validated your preconceptions that MAINLY Muslims by and large believe this.

    All I am saying is that the market this type of archaic and ignorant thinking isn’t cornered by Muslims. Many Christians are entrepreneurs in this market as well

  245. ChiTom… is islamofascism real?

  246. Jackal,

    Whether or not your theories are correct (though I personally see no reason to believe that they are), I suggest you reflect upon the Parable of the Goatse.cx Guy.

  247. Not every truth is attended by evidence.

    Uh, actually, yes it is.

    Miriam Webster says:

    Truth \?tr?th\ – the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality

  248. taxtix … wow, you are such a fucking ignoramus. Where in that definition is “evidence” or anything like it identified?

  249. ChicagoTom, if someone were to come forward no with real evidenece that the government was behind it and/or let it happen you could bet your ass any mainstream newspaper would publish it the next day. Do you realize how much fame and money they’d get? Same with the guy who would leak it. He’d be an American hero, get all kinds of money and book deals, etc.

    Cesar,

    Maybe. But what is real evidence? Chances are you aren’t gonna have video or pictures. The only evidence would be some type of memo (probably classified), or whistleblowers.

    I mean if someone were to say “I was ordered to stand down on 9/11” — what kind of “evidence” would be required to treat this source as legit? (Granted I am simplifying but I think the example is valid)

  250. jake … point taken. Except I think the others are the gaping assholes.

  251. ok, somebody answer the goddamn question … how many fingers am I holding up?

  252. No, what I meant was that my preconception was that Muslims by and large DID NOT believe this. This was possibly not really a preconception but rather a “I hadn’t really given much though to what Muslims believe re this” before and now I was being made to think about it.

    The fact that 2/3 mulsim clerics chosen by NPR seemed to believe this left me going WTF?…even WTFF?

    And yes, actually the idea crossed my mind that possibly this was a notion more prevalent in Islam than in Christianity.

    Part of my concern about hearing the way the show presented it was that it certainly left that impression.

    I certainly agree that “[m]any Christians are entrepreneurs in this market as well”. Quoted simply because I could not have though of a better way to say it.

    Anyhoo, I think this equine carcass has received sufficient flogging, what?

  253. Cesar | April 8, 2008, 4:02pm | #

    If this crazy hypothetical thing actually happened, what would exactly be the incentive of coming forward? I have never figured this out nor liked this argument.

    First, if they just offed three thousand people they wouldn’t hesitate to off you.

    Second I would presume that the elements that would have done this theoretical conspiracy would be small and those involved would be offered hefty rewards for their participation.

    Even if one disagreed about it, they would probably realize that the entity able to do this is much more powerful than just one person and keep their mouth shut out of fear of persecution…but that’s just my opinion.

    To go through all that trouble just to be ridiculed by the same people you are trying to help makes no sense to me. No paper would run it. They wouldn’t believe you no matter what. Documents can be forged, events can be denied, etc. and even if that isn’t the case that argument can be used. A matyr is just a brainwashed jackass.

  254. Isaac,

    I did in fact misunderstand what you were saying, and I apologize.

    Anyhoo, I think this equine carcass has received sufficient flogging, what?

    Agreed

  255. First, if they just offed three thousand people they wouldn’t hesitate to off you.

    Glad you brought that up. It follows, then, if they offed 3,000 people they would’ve offed the guy who made “Loose Change” by now, they would’ve offed Alex Jones, they would’ve offed Jesse Ventura, and just about any other famous person who would question the official story.

  256. From what I could decipher from your mangled grammar, you’d like to know what “evidence” has to do with “fact.”

    However much this betrays you lack of intelligence, you can find this answer here.

    Wow, debating with you is like talking to a wall — a really dumb wall.

  257. “””ok fucktards, class is in session … listen closely and you may learn something. Today’s lesson begins with this question: How many fingers am I holding up?”””

    One. πŸ˜‰

    Many, many things are possible. That means very little. To flip it, is it impossible that the government was involved? Is it impossible that the government knew in advance? I say no on both counts. It is possible that they knew or were involved, but I’ve seen nothing to support the claim. Appeal to conspiracy does not prove anything.

  258. Possible != probable.

  259. My parting point: there are many so-called “truths” that you take on pure faith. Evolution, cranial-biology, electronics, etc. Most of you have never directly observed the proofs that constitute the full truth of these and many other examples. Yet, you believe them. That is because someone has attested that they or others have conducted the proofs to bear out the truth – and you take them at their word … on faith.

  260. jake … point taken. Except I think the others are the gaping assholes.

    Billy, how you been keepin?

  261. Cesar | April 8, 2008, 4:17pm | #

    If I was behind the hypothetical cabal, I would want those people around. Who you rather someone respected or the flouridization of the water guy? Give me all the nutjobs and nutjob profiteers. The 9/11 Commission did a piss poor job, but nobody pushes the issue too hard because they don’t want to be linked to the nutjobs. If I was behind this hypothetical situation I would welcome the nutjobs with open arms, because they dissuade other people from inquiring too hard because they don’t want to be labeled a nutjob.

  262. “However much this betrays you lack of intelligence …”
    And I have the mangled grammar? If your statement had come from a person with the obvious gift of language, with a flair for prose and the grammarian’s tongue, then I would relent and admit my inferiority in such matters. You, sir, are no such person.

  263. there are many so-called “truths” that you take on pure faith. Evolution, cranial-biology, electronics, etc. Most of you have never directly observed the proofs that constitute the full truth of these and many other examples. Yet, you believe them.

    Speak for yourself. It’s not our fault you can’t get daddy’s dick out of your ass long enough to observe science experiments.

  264. PC thats a pretty convoluted theory and extremely improbable.

    Its also a pitfall of conspiracy theory thinking. If something appears to contradict the imagined conspiracy, it must be PART of the conspiracy.

  265. “””Possible != probable.”””

    Possible = Possible

    Probable = Probable

    A = A

  266. Glad you brought that up. It follows, then, if they offed 3,000 people they would’ve offed the guy who made “Loose Change” by now, they would’ve offed Alex Jones, they would’ve offed Jesse Ventura, and just about any other famous person who would question the official story.

    Hey man, the Kennedy assasination team offed Dorothy Kilgallen. It’s only a matter of time before the 9/11 team gets these guys if they need to.

    But in the meantime they’ll just ridicule them.

    Goddamn, who’d’ve thunk after forty-plus years a JFK “truther” site would be Number Two if you google “Dorothy Kilgallen”.

  267. uh-oh tax … seems like you’ve stooped to my level. Job well done, weakling!

  268. uh-oh tax … seems like you’ve stooped to my level. Job well done, weakling!

    I was wondering what that smell was…

  269. If something appears to contradict the imagined conspiracy, it must be PART of the conspiracy.

    But that’s what so cool about conspiracy theories.

    Of course the other thing you do if something appears to contradict the imagined conspiracy is just make shit up.

    Check out any random theory and you will find a glorious conglomeration of halftruths, untruths along with things that are true but irrelevant.

    In all fairness many of the untruths are not outright lies or fabrications but simply errors.

  270. Damn, I think he really left. I had a bet going too.

    Sorry about the personal attacks, all!

  271. jackal,

    It appears you don’t have a lot of friends.
    It appears you have problems dealing with reality.
    Have you considered seeking professional psychiatric help? Self medication is obviously not working.

  272. Truthers always set up all these false dichotomies, you either are a super-patriotic, pro-war nutjob, or you think the CIA staged 9-11 so that the Elders of Zion could take over the world.

    I don’t trust the government. But I’m not F***ing crazy either.

  273. My parting point: there are many so-called “truths” that you take on pure faith. Evolution, cranial-biology, electronics, etc. Most of you have never directly observed the proofs that constitute the full truth of these and many other examples. Yet, you believe them. That is because someone has attested that they or others have conducted the proofs to bear out the truth – and you take them at their word … on faith.

    Or you can do some research yourself and read papers and studies on the evidence. It’s really not difficult to teach yourself the fundamentals of physics, chemistry, biology, and engineering. You can even conduct experiments to verify the things you learn. It’s called education, something that was obviously lost on you long ago.

    That way when someone talks about conspiracy theories on why a building isn’t falling at the “speed of gravity” your bullshit detector goes off and you aren’t believing in the adult equivalent of a fairy tale.

  274. Now that it appears that you guys have thoroughly trounced the truthers, can we get another thread about those crazy conspiracy theories that too many people accept with no regard to facts or evidence, religions?

  275. Fine, as long as noone blasphemes the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

  276. Isaac Bartram | April 8, 2008, 5:15pm | #

    Fine, as long as noone blasphemes the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    Fine, just as long as you keep your noodly appendage of my ovaries.

  277. *off my ovaries

  278. I’m shocked that Dave W. hasn’t shown yet with his twist.

    Chicago Tom has my point of view covered.

    Fyo asks what the evidence is. The evidence is Dick Cheney sitting in a room supposedly deciding whether to shoot down planes, but really hoping that they had a team on the ground still in Florida. Unfortunately for him, they didn’t.

  279. This should become someone’s new handle.

    Oh wait.

    It just did.

  280. The true believer is always such a sad sight when cornered.

    Is it because the world is a complex and confusing place that people feel the need to wrench it into boxes that they understand?

    Yes.

    When your box is small and misshapen, this can lead to depressing, disrespectful, counter-productive, bs.

  281. Chicago Tom,

    It seems there is a difference between a theory which says that an individual noticed, thought about the ramifications for his/her own job/mission, and did not pass that along….and saying that “the government” knew and did nothing.

    The random individual with in the vast bureaucracy may have known at some level of certainty that something involving planes and buildings was gonna happen sometime, maybe soon.

    I have a hard time believing the nefariousness gets much beyond that, however.

  282. I have a hard time believing the nefariousness gets much beyond that, however.

    The nefariousness extended to a slow air response. Which allowed the jets to kill people on the land.

  283. Dave W.

    You are proposing a deliberately slow air response?

    I don’t buy it.

  284. when given accepted phenomenon is reason itself, never a form of evidence? If we cannot establish probable causality without seeing and touching every chain in the linkage, then we remain petrified as to what we can do in reality, with what is a critical amount of time.

  285. the ‘third’ building housed Giulliani’s command post. It had a several thousand gallon supply of diesel fuel on, I believe, the 23rd floor.

    Ignited by debris from towers I and II, it was inevitable that it would be destroyed.

    You might ask why the NYC command post was ever installed in such a place, that is a question for another day.

  286. I have a hard time believing the nefariousness gets much beyond that, however.

    And I have a hard time believing that such a spectacular failure by our security apparatus on so many levels was mere incompetence.

    The random individual with in the vast bureaucracy may have known at some level of certainty that something involving planes and buildings was gonna happen sometime, maybe soon.

    What about if the people at the top of the bureaucracy — who have access to classified information that the cogs in the bureaucracy do not and dictate priorities and responses of our security apparatus, saw an opportunity to to advance their ideas of American empire and assert more and more control over the populace by merely sitting back and did nothing?

    What if those leaders also underestimated the amount of damage this event would produce?

    These are not very far fetched scenarios. It’s not like the government hasn’t tried to use disasters real or fake to their advantage. Why is it that hard to believe that the PNAC guys would be willing to do something like that?

    Now that’s not to imply that the government planted explosives in WTC buildings, staged a pentagon attack that never happened or even faked the moon landing πŸ™‚

    Nor am I asserting that the above scenario did in fact happen. All I am saying is that when it comes to people whose mindset is one of American Exceptionalism and a belief in a strong Executive with King like powers who believe Nixon got a raw deal(much of the administrations sernior officials were part of the Nixon administration) and in fact believe that the ends justify the means when it comes to their world view, I would not be quick to rule out malfeasance on their part.

  287. According to the Frontline documentary Bush’s War Cheney ordered shootdowns and believed for most of the day that Flight 93 had been shot down. According to the film he felt terribly bad about it. Now I suppose the plane might actually have been shot down and someone may have made up the story about the brave passengers and the crash to make Dick Cheney feel good, but does anyone actually belive that? Dave?

    Tell me, Dave. Can you give any reason, any at all, why the government would lie about something that they had fully and clearly stated they were prepared to do? I can see absolutely no reason related to policy.

    There was absolutely zero reason to be ordering planes shot down before the first plane hit the WTC. As far as anyone knew it was a perfectly conventional hijacking. Noone had ever shot down a hijacked plane before; noone had even suggested shooting down a hijacked plane before. Noone was going to start now.

    Again, I can see why government officials lie about shit that makes them look bad. I can certainly see why they lie about stuff that if made known would place the country at a strategic disadvantage versus some enemy (I even approve, a little).

    But here there was absolutely no reason to engage in a cover-up. One only covers stuff up when the consequences of getting exposed are worse that the consequences of telling the truth. Explain how this would have been the case here.

  288. Chicago Tom,

    Sure, sure, but I still ain’t buying.

    For the details to have gotten to the top requires a greater number of people knowing and not doing, and then keeping quiet about that passiveness.

    It takes actual effort by the folks at the bottom to get the attention of those at the top…and active suppression by those at the top to get the bottom to not do their job.

    At least that’s the way it seems to me.

  289. Noone had ever shot down a hijacked plane before; noone had even suggested shooting down a hijacked plane before. Noone was going to start now.

    I had suggested it. My thinking (pre 9/11) was shoot down a couple of hijacked planes and it won’t be very popular anymore. For some reason, the idea didn’t gain a lot of traction.

  290. Hey, you weren’t on the ship that shot down TWA Flight 800, were you? That would explain a lot.

  291. who have access to classified information that the cogs in the bureaucracy do not and dictate priorities and responses of our security apparatus,

    The problem with this theory is that the actually situation is entirely reversed.

    There are (still) (at least) 15 different ‘intel’ agencies, plus the various equivalenices at the state and local level. Any specific ‘cog’ is awash in so much intel, that determining what is and is not important to pass on to bosses and/or diseminate outside the deparment requires as many if not more resources than the original gathering effort.

    Much has been made of Cheney’s ability to reach into the bureacracy to pull the actual levers of power. And basically I agree, the Kimath(sp?) basin controversy shows that this is pretty much the case. But the idea that anyone has a preternatural ability to identify from terabytes of raw or even lightly processed data a patern which other people aren’t able to pick up on is preposterous.

  292. Or what neu mej said (including the fewer typos)

    Also, remember the big tv momement when Rice was at congress which went something like:

    Rice: Senator, we had no actionable indication that Al queda wanted to conduct attacks on the US.

    Senator: What’s the title of this memo from May of 2001?

    Rice: This one? It’s called “Indications that Al Queda wants to conduct attacks on the US.”

  293. Now I suppose the plane might actually have been shot down and someone may have made up the story about the brave passengers and the crash to make Dick Cheney feel good, but does anyone actually belive that? Dave?

    Oh, I believe that Flight 93 was shot down. I have posted about that here for several years now. You could go back and see, except one day Mr. Balko erased all my old posts here.

    I don’t think they made up the story of the crash to make Dick Cheney feel good. I think they made the story up because: (i) they knew there were no real eye witnesses; and (ii) they did not want Congress or any other investigative body poking around in the air defense protocols. The easiest cover story was: there was no real air response at all.

    I think it is ridiculous. It is the chink in the conspiracy that has made me suspicious when I would not otherwise be. But most people just aren’t operating up at the Dave W. lvl o brains.

  294. make Dick Cheney feel good,

    I’m not even sure sometimes Lynne Cheney cares about this πŸ™‚

    But seriously, the only way this would work is if the order did not go out – more precisely, if the order went out *not* to take action, and the pilots and/or air commanders went against it. If the chain of command had sufficient top cover, by way of NCA authority, I feel they would acknowledge shooting it down.

  295. Oh, I believe that Flight 93 was shot down. I have posted about that here for several years now. You could go back and see, except one day Mr. Balko erased all my old posts here.

    A statement of opinion, and act of sophistry and the standard writer attack…

    Dave W, why do you even bother entering your name?

  296. Hey, you weren’t on the ship that shot down TWA Flight 800, were you? That would explain a lot.

    Isaac, when that moronic conspiracy theory emerged I almost defecated myself laughing at the ridiculousness of it. If anyone wants to defend that, please talk to me. I know more about US Navy AAW ops than just about everybody. I’m a retired Fire Controlman with Terrier, Tartar and Aegis combat system experience. It would be impossible to cover up. Absolutely impossible.

  297. The preceding offer to discuss TWA 800 does not apply to jackal the carlos. I do not possess infinite patience.

  298. . . . the standard writer attack

    No. When other writers here bother to attack me they just use words and arguments and stuff like that. Once in a great while maybe a temporary banning. That is the standard approach. Even a lot of the anti-Dave W. crowd thought it was OTT when Mr. Balko took the unusual step of erasing all my old my posts.

  299. Dave W,

    Sorry man, I thought you were making a reference to this being a conspiracy post…

  300. J sub D, why exactly would it be impossible to cover up? I’m just curious, not asking because I believe the nutbag theories.

    Also, do you think it would be equally hard to cover up an Air Force missile attack on the Pentagon?

  301. Regarding falling at the speed of gravity. Gravity doesn’t have a speed. I assume what was meant was “free fall speed”. In any case, WTC 1 and 2 did NOT fall at free fall speed. The fell must slower. This is well documented. I don’t know who first came up with the idea that the building fell free fall, but it’s wrong.

    Videos of the collapses CLEARLY SHOW debris falling FASTER than the top of the building. But they don’t care. People who believe that fire cannot melt steel are stupid enough to believe that debris falls faster than free fall.

  302. It looked like an implosion somewhere, you know?

    *sigh* It was an implosion, dumbass. When you melt columns of steel from the inside due to a jet-fuel fire, it will, in essence, implode.

  303. Conspiracy theories are simply the product of an infantile view of the universe. X happened, so therefore, some powerful person(s) MADE it happen. It’s very close to how fundamentalists view the world. That is, if something is here, then God must have created it/made it happen.

    Conspiracy theorists should be either scorned or pitied.

  304. “Conspiracy theorists should be either scorned or pitied.”

    Like Cubs fans.

  305. When you melt columns of steel from the inside due to a jet-fuel fire, it will, in essence, implode.

    Are you saying that the fire melted (or weakened) all the columns uniformly, regardless of the location within each tower?

    If yes, how could the fire have been so evenly distributed across the cross section of the tower?

    If no, why was the collapse so evenly distributed across the cross section of the tower?

  306. J sub D, why exactly would it be impossible to cover up? I’m just curious, not asking because I believe the nutbag theories.

    Too many people, who are just regular folks, are in on what happened. In CIC (that dark room with the radar displays) you can expect at least 30 sailors, not government spooks, just sailors, who will be watching a missile firing intently. Success or failure of a missile exercise, is instantly known by these folks and the one’s manning the fire control radar consoles in another part of the ship. Within 30 seconds of a missile engagements ending, 100% of ship’s company knows whether you hit or missed. Now you have 300+ folks who

    A) Know that a missile was fired. Hell, they heard it leave.
    and
    B) Know if it hit what it was aimed at. Even if somehow (don’t ask me how) a commercial airliner could be mistaken for a target drone, everyone still knows you fired and killed the target.

    Sailors can and do read the newspaper. It’s not possible to keep it a secret.

    What I’ve laid out is just a quick and dirty rundown. There are off ship range safety and telemetry people involved who would be aware of all of this as well.

    Also, do you think it would be equally hard to cover up an Air Force missile attack on the Pentagon?

    Even if you planned it out weeks in advance, far too many regular American citizens (if USAF pukes can be called regular) would be involved. Missiles don’t load themselves on planes, pilots don’t do it either. It takes a crew. Planes don’t fly around on their own, they are under direction of an AWACS or ground controllers. That’s more regular folks.

    Sorry for the length. I just didn’t want to say “Impossible! Trust me.”

  307. Just imagine me being debriefed.

    Debriefing Officer: Master Chief Jsub, that missile exercise yesterday officially didn’t happen. This has nothing to do with all of the crap in the papers, it just didn’t happen. You’re not allowed to discuss this with anyone. Now, go out in town and act normal.

    J sub D: WTF? Are you insane?

    Now imagine hundreds of men and women getting the same debriefing at the same time.

  308. But J Sub D they could just threaten to kill you! They’d off you too! And say you died in a training accident, or something. /conspiracy theory hat

  309. SugarFree today at 3:17pm said: “The presumed natural “alliance” between Troofers and libertarians is really quite a huge insult to libertarians. They think we are crazy like they are. They become incensed when we won’t play along.”

    ???

    Looks to me like almost all of us are “playing along.”

    I hate to shatter your illusions but these silly truthers are in fact taking over the libertarian movement. Check out the speaker lineup for April 15:

    Ron Paul – at whose doorstep lies the blame for bringing in these creeps.

    The MC – Dave vonKleist – His DVD “exposing the falsehoods of the official account using live video feed and photographs shot on the morning of September 11, 2001.” My fave link on his Web page is to David Ickes. You know David Ickes, don’t you? Wikipedia: ‘At the heart of Icke’s theories is the view that the world is ruled by a secret group called the “Global Elite” or “Illuminati,” which he has linked to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic hoax. In 1999, he published The Biggest Secret, in which he wrote that the Illuminati are a race of reptilian humanoids known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.’

    Good old Ernie Hancock features Loose Change on his http://www.ernesthancock.com/

    Joames H. Fetzer – Wikipedia again: “Fetzer also believes the hijackings were staged and that calls from passengers to relatives and operators were phony. During recent lectures, Fetzer encourages the study of the possibility that high-tech weapons, including ground or space-based directed-energy military weapons, may have been used to bring down the Twin Towers…”

    This ain’t an alliance, friends – it’s a takeover.

    Seriously, how can one work on Libertarian events without noticing the Truthers crawling around?

  310. What if it was Jame Earl Jones?

  311. Kolohe @ 6:52 – I’ve always contended that the memo and the information didn’t necessarily mean that anything was “actionable”.

    Hindsight is 20/20 and all, but she did say “actionable”. IIRC the official line was that it was a minor memorandum in an overflow of information.

  312. While the President of the United States was reading aloud a children’s book in the state where his brother was governor, his wife was scheduled to testify before Congress at the exact moment that Flight 93 would have struck the Capitol Dome.

    Absolute military dictator and eligible bachelor in one day.

  313. ayn_randian: that was precisely my point; sorry if i was unclear.

  314. Truther-hater | April 8, 2008, 8:54pm | #

    Similar comments have been made in threads before. Some candidates have been contacted, but I have not seen Reason nor anyone else make any comment. I have neither seen comment in the “conservative” blogs, meaning the Republican loyalists who definitely want to trash libertarians to keep their voice. The “conservatives” will make a big deal of it after it happens. They don’t like Barr one bit because he has some conservative street cred at a time when they are running McCain who they smeared in 2000 and have mocked until two months ago. They are exposed and they will be ruthless. After it happens they make libertarians out to look crazier than we are so conservative voters are scared away from us, just like they are scared away from the Democrats.

    Also regarding the April 15th rally. I don’t think Ron would give a shit either way and I wouldn’t expect him to. He did the President thing, it didn’t work out, the networks are running congressional candidates, and he has a book to sell. Now he is a competitor of Reason. He will be a Congressman but he will work with Lew more often filling his niche, selling books and doing speeches. Some people need to get off Ron’s back and let him go back to being Ron.

  315. LevStrauss | April 8, 2008, 10:09pm | #

    Not sure if I follow…

    & sorry to be repetitive.

    I am far less concerned about what conservatives or “liberals” do to impugn us than I am about risking losing a party and a movement to these fruitcakes.

    I won’t bore you by recounting the many times I have seen infiltration at events, in activist threads and in the way of personal conversions of the previously sensible.

    I take it that some others are not having these unhappy experiences as often as I am, and I find that greatly heartening. Maybe I will have better luck in future too.

    My greatest fear is that in a few years’ time, the public perception of limited government advocates will be “what, those conspiracy guys?”

  316. I’m a retired Fire Controlman with Terrier, Tartar and Aegis combat system experience. It would be impossible to cover up. Absolutely impossible.

    Hey, old shipmate, don’t you know I was just joking?

    Funny how old Pierre Salinger who used to be a respectable journo back when he was Bobby Kennedy’s press guy went to being a nutcase. Ramsey Clark did the same. LBJ’s AG to a dictator-defending wierdo.

  317. …USAF pukes…

    Watch it, Chief. πŸ˜‰

  318. If no, why was the collapse so evenly distributed across the cross section of the tower?

    You really haven’t read the NIST report, have you? For someone who claims to be for the “Truth”, you have a lot of reading to catch up on!

  319. Regarding falling at the speed of gravity. Gravity doesn’t have a speed. I assume what was meant was “free fall speed”. In any case, WTC 1 and 2 did NOT fall at free fall speed. The fell must slower. This is well documented. I don’t know who first came up with the idea that the building fell free fall, but it’s wrong.

    Videos of the collapses CLEARLY SHOW debris falling FASTER than the top of the building. But they don’t care. People who believe that fire cannot melt steel are stupid enough to believe that debris falls faster than free fall.

    From what I remember seeing, it is correct that the debris fell faster than the building. I take it that this is because the debris was falling at approximately the free fall rate (minus the negligable effect of air friction); while the collapsing parts of the building had to fall against the upward force from the floors below.

    Since there was some upward force, the net downward force on the falling floors was less than 9.8 N/kg (i.e. less than what would be required to accelerate an object of that mass at Earth’s freefall rate).

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