The Friday Political Thread: Diamond Club Edition

SUNDAY UPDATE: I'll be appearing on Jim Babka's Downsize DC at 3 p.m. ET, discussing the ins and outs of the Ron Paul campaign. Listen live here.

UPDATE II: A small story on Saturday was the tumble of Barack Obama in two tracking polls - he went from up 8 to up 1 on Clinton in Rasmussen, and from up 5 to up 1 in Gallup. Dean Barnett wondered whether the Jeremiah Wright controversy would curdle and Obama would keep falling. For now: Nope. Obama rose by 2 points in both polls on Saturday night. At Intrade, Obama shares hardly moved at all. The candidate fell from around 76 dollars to 72 dollars when the Wright story went nuclear, and rose from 72 to 73 dollars the next day.

I don't think the story can drag on unless a researcher finds video of Obama in the audience as Wright drops one of the lines Obama said he did not hear. I'm not that surprised. I presume that if Obama had swept the March 4 primaries and knocked Hillary Clinton out of the race, he'd have done a mea culpa tour on Wright and Tony Rezko by now. Best to knock this stuff out early and steer the narrative.

Unconvincing Quote of the Week
"I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my family." - disgraced New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer, March 10.

The Week in Brief
- Barack Obama easily won the Mississippi primary, the last Democratic contest until Pennsylvania on April 22.
- The Western Front 1915-style conflict between the Clinton and Obama surrogates continued. Advisors in trouble this week including Geraldine Ferraro, who claimed being black gave Barack Obama an unfair leg up, and Obama's Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whose habit of saying lunatic things finally produced video evidence.
- John McCain laughed and pocketed millions of dollars.
- The mayor of Detroit imploded in a manner almost as amusing as Eliot Spitzer.
- The House passed its own version of FISA. Are you enjoying the deadlock? So are the terrorists.
- The Democrats lurched toward mulligan elections in Michigan, and maybe in Florida, to decide their nomination. Hey, remember when they were about to win the presidency?

Below the Fold
- Amanda Carpenter watches Kay Bailey Hutchinson knock herself out of McCain's veepstakes.
- Matt Yglesias has, to my mind, the best take on Jeremiah Wright.
- Dan Zarella starts to make the libertarian case for net neutrality, an issue I haven't thought enough about lately.
- Mary Kane makes the completely strange argument that our endless wars may be affecting the economy adversely.
- John Zmirak ponders the alternate universe where Distributists won the battle of ideas.
- Scott Jordan asks David Vitter (remember him?) about Eliot Spitzer.

This week's Politics 'n' Prog winners: Soft Machine.

Comments

[sage]

Yes, the Friday thread
Where, pray tell, is Click n' Learn
With his weekly tripe?

[Danny]

Why has today become "Haiku Day" on H&R? I saw you link to a post from last year, but how did this originate?

[joe]

Here's how Obama should handle the Wright issue:

"Reverend Wright is from a previous generation. The same generation as Senator Clinton. And Senator McCain. And President Bush." blah blah blah how bad politics were in Teh Sixties. "I want to move this country beyond those politics, that divide us, that set us against each other, that define our fellow Americans as the enemy."

[Episiarch]

Must now dedicate
Some time to regain the trust
Of my family

[Episiarch]

I should have banged her
One more time for old time's sake
No more whores for me

[shecky]

I thought Obama was the Manchurian Muslim candidate?

[sage]

Danny, I was bored
I tried to be creative
I should try again

[peachy]

Must now dedicate
Some time to make enough money
To get a hooker

[peachy]

Oh, bloody hell - let's say 'cash' rather than 'money'... clearly my mind was elsewhere.

[PapayaSF]

It has been a fun week. Everything that libertarians and Republicans have said about the dangers of Democratic race/gender identity politics, and about the ruthlessness of the Clintons, is now on display for everyone. Even Paul Krugman is complaining about it. Heh.

The Spitzer thing was interesting on many levels. Who knew there were $4,300 hookers? And that that dough only gets you this? Not bad, but for $4,300 I'd want a weekend threesome with the physical reincarnations of Rita Hayworth, Paulette Goddard, and Hedy Lamarr.

[Episiarch]

I got pwned by feds
Why didn't I foresee this?
Curse my arrogance

[Danny]

Well it looks like others
are celebrating as well
but you did know that

[Danny]

I, contrarily
refuse to celebrate this
mindless "holiday"

[Episiarch]

Damn, this haiku shit
Great fun when I use it for
Eliot Spitzer

[Syd]

Why these restrictions?
Would-be poets long to spend
Each day in haiku.

[Danny]

By the end this
My fingers will be tired from
Counting to five and seven

[Episiarch]

Who could have known that
The feds track large wire transfers
Oh, me--that is who

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Not bad, but for $4,300 I'd want a weekend threesome with the physical reincarnations of Rita Hayworth, Paulette Goddard, and Hedy Lamarr.

That's Hedley!

[guy in the back row]

papayaSF
that money gets you the front
and the backdoor too?

[Click \'n\' Learn]

1. My roundup of the Spitzer affair has several links at the end about his previous contempt for the laws of the land. While I wouldn't have predicted his downfall would be because of hookers, the previous incident showed that he was corrupt. He even went as far as changing the MotorVoter rules for all those who'd get those forms with their new NY DLs.

2. I have to admit that some - just some - of Wright's comments aren't that "lunatic" and might warrant more discussion. Even more so with GF's comments; her point was that "being black gave Barack Obama an unfair leg up" because of the media and at this particular point in time and not so much at other times. Perhaps Reason could consider, instead of supporting MMFA-style witchhunting, an open discussion of controversial topics.

3. CorporateGlobalGovernance? Thank a Cosmotarian.

4. New! This week's prog antidote is available in both the original extra-strength version as well as a special, gentle, Safe-for-SIV version.

[Episiarch]

Fucking steamroller
Fucking whores for eighty grand
Fucking indictment

[Art-P.O.G.]

Episiarch, that's about the best poetry I've ever seen 🙂

[Episiarch]

Root out corruption
Check inside flexible girl
Find feds instead: shit

[highnumber]

Soft Machine's a change
from the usual prog crap.
It's tolerable.

Politics and Punk
That would be more to my taste
What do you say, Dave?

[Art-P.O.G.]

being black gave Barack Obama an unfair leg up

Even assuming that being black somehow gave Obama a leg up, I can't conceive of a way in which it is 'unfair.' I fail to see much 'fair' in the American political process, especially at the presidential level. To me, saying Obama's race gave him an 'unfair' leg up is like saying Hillary already being a household name due to having been First Lady gave her an 'unfair' leg up. When we talk about 'fairness' shouldn't we talk about dishonest behavior that people can alter?

[Cesar]

So, first he was a secret Muslim, but now they're attacking his preacher? Make up your mind.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Perhaps Reason could consider, instead of supporting MMFA-style witchhunting, an open discussion of controversial topics

I especially take exception to this. I do think "reason" has encouraged open discussion on these topics. All sorts of perspectives have been expressed in these threads. I think the site typically gives appropriate latitude to us amateur pundits.

Relax...have a drink!

[Gimme Back My Dog]

Not bad, but for $4,300 I'd want a weekend threesome with the physical reincarnations of Rita Hayworth, Paulette Goddard, and Hedy Lamarr.

Wouldn't that be a foursome? Or would you not be there?

[Fluffy]

I tend to look askance at historical revisionism and anti-western-culture hatred of the "Anthropology Department" variety, I really don't find all that much very objectionable in Obama's pastor's comments.

For most of its history, the United States did not possess a legitimate government from the perspective of its African-American population. That makes the sort of smug tut-tutting coming out of shitholes like the Corner about how "wrong" it is for this guy to damn America a bit tough to take.

I really can't think of any reason for any black Christian leader to NOT do a continual impersonation of the prophet Jeremiah.

[Cesar]

Fluffy, why do you hate America?

[peachy]

you asked for bare-back?
there's no fucking way in hell
said the angry whore

[Fluffy]

I hate Haiku Day.

At least it's only once a year.

And no, I don't want to be visited by the Ghosts of Haiku Day past, present and future, either. A-hole ghosts can talk to the hand.

[Fluffy]

Joe, I think the way to handle the Wright thing is to say:

The only people who think black people shouldn't critique their experience with America are slavery apologists and segregation apologists. If America had treated Africans in a Christian way, America wouldn't have to worry about the recriminations of black Christians.

In other words, Go Fuck Yourself.

I know, I know. I always advise the Go Fuck Yourself approach. But it's just always the most satisfying.

[PapayaSF]

Oops, that would be a foursome . . . the fantasy interfered with my arithmetic skills. . . .

[Geraldine Ferraro (AKA Sparky)]

Damn those lucky blacks
Always getting stuff easy
Where the fuck's my meds?

[Jonathan Hohensee]

The Wife's Lament

Standing at his side
it finally hits her
She probably shouldn't support
Men named Spitzer.

Dan Zarella starts to make the libertarian case for net neutrality, an issue I haven't thought enough about lately.

No one has. Anyone who has attempted to educate themselves about the issue ends up being found at their desks 10 minuets later in a boredom-induced coma.

[PapayaSF]

Joe, to claim AIDS was invented to kill blacks, that drugs are a government plot, to say "God damn America" from a pulpit, etc. etc. isn't a "critique" of the "black experience with America," it's far-left lunacy. But hey, let's see Obama try your approach. At least his b.s. post-racial/trans-partisan mask would off.

[joe]

I'd be like, look dood
Do you really the sex?
You know what I mean?

[PapayaSF]

Oops again, I see I was quoting Fluffy and not joe.

[Jonathan Hohensee]

Why gender and race?
Nanook wonders where is the
Eskimo news cycle.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Pi Day is today
A magazine called "Reason"
Ignores it, so drink.

[Jonathan Hohensee]

I forgot it's pi day. I'm posting my best pie recipes today, then.

Zuccotto

Nonstick cooking spray
1 (12-ounce) loaf pound cake
1/4 cup brandy
6 ounces bittersweet chocolate, chopped
2 cups chilled whipping cream
1/2 teaspoon pure almond extract
1/4 cup powdered sugar
1/2 cup sliced almonds, toasted, coarsely crumbled
Unsweetened cocoa powder
Spray a 1 1/2-quart bowl with nonstick cooking spray. Line the bowl with plastic wrap. Cut the pound cake crosswise into 1/3-inch-thick slices. Cut each slice diagonally in half, forming 2 triangles. Line the bottom and sides of the prepared bowl with the cake triangles. Brush some of the brandy over the cake triangles lining the bowl. Reserve the extra triangles.
Stir the chocolate in a large metal bowl set over a saucepan of simmering water until the chocolate melts. Allow the chocolate to cool slightly. Using an electric mixer, beat 1 cup of cream in another large bowl until it is thick and fluffy. Fold 1/4 of the whipped cream into the chocolate. Fold half of the remaining whipped cream into the chocolate mixture. Fold in the remaining whipped cream. Spread the chocolate cream over the cake, covering completely and creating a well in the center. Cover and refrigerate if not assembling cake right away.

In another clean large bowl, add the remaining 1 cup of cream and almond extract. Using an electric mixer with clean beaters, beat on medium speed and gradually add the powdered sugar. Beat until firm peaks form. Fold in the nuts. Spoon the cream mixture into the center of the well of the filling.

Brush the remaining cake slices with brandy and arrange them, brandy side down, over the cake, covering the filling completely and trimming to fit, if necessary. Cover the cake with plastic wrap and refrigerate at least 3 hours and up to 1 day.

Invert the cake onto a platter. Remove the bowl and the plastic wrap. Sift the cocoa powder over and serve.

[Grumpy old man]

"Do you really the sex?"

Ha, ha! joe can't count
Typical dirty hippie
Get a job, hippie!

[Click \'n\' Learn]

Art-P.O.G. opines: I do think "reason" has encouraged open discussion on these topics.

I can look through my saved Reason comments for all the times I've pointed out when they've substituted smears (nativist, xenophobe, etc.) for a "reason"ed discussion of the matter. At least when the profits of crooked corporations are at stake, Reason is anything but interested in a fair debate.

Click here to read my previous comment.

[Cesar]

Obama crested last week, now hes going down.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Math is really cool,
Though it doesn't do a thing
To help me get laid.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

for a "reason"ed discussion of the matter.
Thanks, Lonewacko. That's a legit drink!

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Your mom's going down.

[Sparky]

Oh no! a scary
corporation! Lonewacko
soiled his Underoos!

[Jonathan Hohensee]

Math is really cool,
Though it doesn't do a thing
To help me get laid.

Yet Steven Hawkings
gets lot of ass. The problem
must just be your own.

[Episiarch]

I'm King of New York,
A-number-one, rule the state
But not IRS

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Two Guinnesses in
My belly ain't enough to do it.
Bye fuckers - later!

[Art-P.O.G.]

to say "God damn America" from a pulpit,

I prefer the Serenity Prayer. And truthfully, I'm more of an optimist.

[Sparky]

Cesar, you always
so down on Barack's chances.
Why harsh my mellow?

[Cesar]

I don't think the country will elect a black guy with two years in the Senate whose middle name is "Hussein" and is tied to Chicago politics, basically. If he were a Republican, he could win, but Democrats always run shitty campaigns.

[Cesar]

In short, when in doubt, bet on the Clinton. Then bet on the Republican.

[Cesar]

Someone needs to do a John McCain Haiku.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

My friends, my dear friends,
My wonderful friends, my friends
My friends, vote for me.

[Billie]

Nee Ashley Youmans.
Now Dupre. Alexandra
is her middle name.

But, how hot is she?
Did she learn her sex technique
in North Korea?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

It wasn't that great,
But at least I typed it quickly
Haikus are for tools.

[John McCain]

Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran
Lighten up and get a life
Combat wounds, my friends

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Bet on the Clintons
Even though they are behind
They'll beat him, I swear!

[Click \'n\' Learn]

Now that everyone's had their drinks, guess how many accounts I have here.

[Paul]

"I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my family."

yes, so long as his family includes, but is not limited to, the following:

The State of New York.
The People of the State of New York.
The Law.
The spirit of the law.
His party.
The office of the governor.
Democracy.
Every criminal ever put in jail for doing the exact same thing.
The American Bar Association.
Libertarianism.
Me.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Sorry I think I have some syllables wrong in some of these. I really do need some more to drink.

[John McCain]

In a time of war
The promise of a better future
Is not always clear

Other Wars my friends
Theres going to be other wars
Other wars my friends

[Billie]

Stephen Hawkings, not
so much. But John Nash sexed up
Jenny Connelly.

[Jonathan Hohensee]

von Neumann would prove
the prisoner's dilemma
with his large penis

[Billie]

He was gifted but
trust me endowment is a
prison of its own.

[joe]

Obama crested last week, now hes going down.

You wrote that two weeks ago.

[joe]

Actually, he's going back up, in all the tracking polls, to a statistically significant lead over Clinton.

[Kwix]

LoneWacko, poor man
thinks hard, still comes up empty
wetbacks took his jarb

accounts he has none
at another location
ban hammer enforced

[Episiarch]

I tore up Wall Street
Kicking ass and taking names
Now, handed my ass

[Episiarch]

The people loved me
Then I "loved" Dupre, and now
Ho no!, says the Post

[Episiarch]

For whom the bell tolls?
Me, megalomaniac
Now, ego deflated

[Jim Morrison]

"This week's Politics 'n' Prog winners: Soft Machine."

Great cover of "Riders on the Storm"!

[Episiarch]

Spying State Police
Who is that laughing, I ask
It's Joseph Bruno

[Jonathan Hohensee]

He was gifted but
trust me endowment is a
prison of its own.

Cooperate or
Defect? It does not matter
When you're in his bed.

[Fluffy]

Papaya, every one of the Old Testament prophets called down the damnation of God upon Israel.

Moses called down the damnation of God upon Egypt. To the point of the mass extermination of innocents.

America didn't do that much better by Africans than Egypt did by the Hebrews. And by the standards of the Bible, we're not much better than late Israel before the Babylonian Captivity.

Hey, it's not MY Bible. But Christianity is supposedly based on it, and this guy Wright is supposedly a Christian, right?

And as for the AIDS and drugs stuff, 30 years ago I would have pronounced it ludicrous if someone claimed that the CIA would sell drugs in the inner city to fund its operations. But that turned out to be true. When ludicrous shit about your government turns out to be true, I forgive you if you believe other ludicrous shit about the government.

This is like when the Corner cunts demand "denunciation" of the asinine things Harry Belafonte sometimes has to say. And you know, the thing about a guy like Belafonte is that he's old enough to have been kicked out of Vegas if he tried to sleep in a hotel where he performed, or to have been chased out of towns in the South if someone in his tour bus failed to show some cracker the proper "respect". On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him some slack.

[edna]

i am not going
to write a fucking haiku
ev'ry damn friday!

[edna]

On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him some slack.

four years in a concentration camp didn't make primo levi say stupid things.

(if you want to count that as a nazi reference, then, drink! i have a bolognani moscato)

[Jonathan C. Hohensee]

I'm drinking a beer that has been in my glove compartment for the past month.

[Jonathan C. Hohensee]

Peanut Butter Pie

6 1/2 ounces chocolate wafers
1 tablespoon sugar
5 ounces unsalted butter, room temperature, divided
1 batch AB's homemade peanut butter, recipe follows
3 ounces powdered sugar, approximately 3/4 cup
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
2 ounces good quality bittersweet chocolate, chopped
1/4 cup plus 1 tablespoon heavy cream
Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.
In the bowl of a food processor, combine the wafers and 1 tablespoon sugar. Process until the wafers are fine crumbs. Melt 3 ounces of the butter and drizzle into the crumb mixture. Pulse to combine. Press this mixture into the bottom, up the sides and just over the lip of a 9-inch metal pie pan. Place in the oven on the middle rack and bake for 10 minutes. Remove from the oven and cool completely.

After the crust has cooled, place the peanut butter and remaining 2 ounces of butter into the bowl of the food processor. Process for 1 minute. Add the powdered sugar and vanilla and process for another 1 1/2 to 2 minutes or until smooth. Carefully spread the mixture into the pie shell and return to the oven to bake for 10 minutes. Remove from the oven and allow to cool while preparing the topping.

Place the heavy cream into a heat-proof bowl and microwave on high just until simmering, approximately 30 seconds. Remove the cream from the microwave and add the chocolate. Make sure the chocolate is completely submersed in the cream. Allow to sit for 2 minutes. Gently whisk until the chocolate is melted and combined with the cream, approximately 2 to 3 minutes.

Spread the chocolate mixture over the pie and chill in the refrigerator for 1 1/2 hours before serving.

Homemade Peanut Butter:
15 ounces shelled and skinned AB's roasted peanuts, recipe follows
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 1/2 teaspoons honey
1 1/2 tablespoons peanut oil
Place the peanuts, salt and honey into the bowl of a food processor. Process for 1 minute. Scrape down the sides of the bowl. Place the lid back on and continue to process while slowly drizzling in the oil and process until the mixture is smooth, approximately 1 1/2 to 2 minutes. Place the peanut butter in an airtight container and store in the refrigerator for up to 2 months.
Yield: approximately 1 1/2 cups

Roasted Peanuts:
2 pounds in-shell raw peanuts*
2 tablespoons peanut oil
1 to 2 tablespoons kosher salt
*Cooks note: If eating peanuts roasted right out of the shell, use Virginia or Valencia peanuts. If utilizing roasted peanuts to make peanut butter, use Spanish peanuts as they have a higher oil content.
Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.

Rinse the peanuts under cool water to remove excess dirt. Pat dry and place in a large bowl and toss with the peanut oil and salt until well coated.

Place on 2 half sheet pans, making sure to spread them out into a single layer. Roast in the oven for 30 to 35 minutes, rotating the pans halfway through cooking. Once you remove the peanuts from the oven, let them cool slightly before eating. They will continue to "cook" and become crunchy as they cool.

If using peanuts to make peanut butter, remove shells and discard. Remove the skin by rubbing the peanuts together in your hands held over a salad spinner, allowing the peanuts and skins to fall into the bowl. Once the skin has been loosened from all of the peanuts close the salad spinner and spin until all of the skin has been separated from the peanuts.

Yield: approximately 2 pounds roasted peanuts in shell

[PapayaSF]

Well, Fluffy, the evidence for the CIA dealing drugs in US cities "to fund operations" is thin to nonexistent, but I suppose that never stops conspiracy theorists from grasping at what straws they can.

But face facts: Rev. Wright is a far-left nut, and Obama's decades of close association and support make this more than "guilt by association." You can make all the excuses you want, but this sort of Ward Churchill b.s. is despised by 80%+ of the American public, thankfully.

If McCain went to a church where whose tenets included a "white value system" and "allegiance to Caucasia" and gave awards to David Duke, would that bother you at all? Is that sort of racialism only OK for certain groups? Because I dislike it anywhere I see it.

[Cesar]

I've been friends with people who hold political views from socialist to neo-conservative and everywhere inbetween. Believe it nor not, it IS possible to be a good friend with someone without holding their political views. Yes, even one with nutty views.

[Sambo]

"he's old enough to have been kicked out of Vegas if he tried to sleep in a hotel where he performed, or to have been chased out of towns in the South if someone in his tour bus failed to show some cracker the proper "respect". On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him some slack."

This is 21st century America. Let it go.

[Gunter]

Dear Jonathan C. Hohensee,

Gotta ball-gag recipe?

[joe]

This is a good exchange:

On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him some slack.

four years in a concentration camp didn't make primo levi say stupid things.

Nobody - certainly not Barack Obama - is holding up this guy as an important political thinker, edna.

Tell you what: I'm totally not going to vote for Jeremiah Wright.

[Cesar]

Well, years of being tortured did make John McCain say "I hate the fucking gooks, and always will" edna.

[Ali]

Someone beat me to the Pi day. Oh well, happy Pi Day all!

[Ali]

edna-

I haven't heard back from you.

[joe]

Three point one four two
Eight five seven one four two six...
Ice cream or Cool Whip?

[Chris Potter]

Summer will be terrible
McCain v Clinton
Hemlock looks yummy

[Chris Potter]

Summer will be terrible
McCain v Clinton
Hemlock looks yummy right now

[edna]

ali, feel free to deconstruct.

(no, i was not joking)

[edna]

cesar, i'd take levy over mccain.

[Billie]

Chris Potter fret not
math says McCain/Obama
cyanide capsule

[Fluffy]

If McCain went to a church where whose tenets included a "white value system" and "allegiance to Caucasia" and gave awards to David Duke, would that bother you at all?

Hagee and Robertson = Farrakhan and Wright.

Actually, I think the first pair might win the hand. A pair of queens beats a pair of jacks.

Personally, I think the war on drugs and the prison industrial complex alone justify a black religious leader saying "Fuck America". The only reason I personally don't walk around saying "Fuck America" 1000 times a day is because I draw a distinction between America the nation and my political enemies. Not everyone can avoid the cognitive trap of conflating the nation with the dominant factions of its political class, I guess.

Wright-style radicalism, while misguided, is still about a billion times more justified than thinking the Catholic Church is a demonic conspiracy, or saying that God should punish the US with terrorist attacks for allowing homosexuals to walk free and women to work outside the home.

[joe]

If McCain went to a church where whose tenets included a "white value system" and "allegiance to Caucasia" and gave awards to David Duke, would that bother you at all? Is that sort of racialism only OK for certain groups? Because I dislike it anywhere I see it.
No, I don't consider a commitment to the advancement of the African-American community to be the equivalent of a commitment to the advancement of the white race.

But then, I have a passing familiarity with the history of this country, in addition to the ability to construct facile linguistic parallels. I am actually familiar with what it means to have a commitment to the former - like Martin Luther King did, like the NAACP did - and with what it means to have a commitment to the latter - like David Duke did, like the NSDAP did - and I don't consider them to be the same thing. Because they are not, and have not ever been, the same thing.

Fluffy, this country has a lot to answer for in its treatment of black people, but inventing AIDS to kill Africans isn't a part of that.

[OdeToSanchez]

Hot blood in fast heart
But Julian won't fuck you
Winter nights still cold

[Cesar]

Who wants to bet we're gonna see a lot of 527 ads with Wright in them?

[Click \'n\' Learn]

~~~~~~ URGENT LIBERTARIAN ACTION ALERT ~~~~~~

On tonight's ABC show, JohnStossel will be discussing the age of consent. A fake poll they showed asked what age you would select, and had those ages listed as... wait for it... 18, 16, and 14.

PLEASE WRITE ABC NEWS ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE!

Clearly, they've gotten to JohnStossel, forcing him to raise the AOC from the libertarian-suggested 1 to the shockingly-high and unlibertarian 14.

14????? What do they think libertarians are, the Democrats????

[GunnerMan]

Man named Carmack,
fortune made on his math skill,
Got a wife named Kang,
Who is hotter than hell.

[Ali]

(no, i was not joking)

OK.

[Billie]

Ah, Caucasia I
long to lay with Caucasoids
in fetid Baku

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

OK I had enough to drink now! By the way, got a woman's number!

Ali: Drew Homer Simpson eating a pie on my chalkboard today, so no shame in not getting to Pi day before me.

I have won the thread
Since I have said so in a
Haiku, no quibbles...

[NAL]

Who wants to bet we're gonna see a lot of 527 ads with Wright in them?

Oh, you betcha! The Republicans and their backers are going to run with this like only "rich white people" can. It's going to stick too.

[t. j.]

man...tucker carlson's msnbc show was cancelled today. :/ no reason to watch msnbc anymore.

[Juan]

"...like David Duke did, like the NSDAP did..."

Godwin?

[Bingo]

~~~~~~ URGENT LIBERTARIAN ACTION ALERT ~~~~~~

On tonight's ABC show, JohnStossel will be discussing the age of consent. A fake poll they showed asked what age you would select, and had those ages listed as... wait for it... 18, 16, and 14.

PLEASE WRITE ABC NEWS ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE!

Clearly, they've gotten to JohnStossel, forcing him to raise the AOC from the libertarian-suggested 1 to the shockingly-high and unlibertarian 14.

14????? What do they think libertarians are, the Democrats????

wtf

[Art-P.O.G.]

First, let me say that I don't agree with Wright's comments, but let me say that I understand them within a context. Fire-and-brimstone preachers typically seem to have left-wing or right-wing politics in the weft of their sermons. If you've ever been to a large Black church in an urban area, you'll probably see race and distrust of the government as recurring themes.

As far as why churches sometimes seem to be segregated, I've certainly been to predominantly white and predominantly black churches where "outsiders" didn't seem too welcomed.

I'm trying to say that Wright is not some isolated nut that Obama has tracked down, but actually sort of a recurring cultural phenomenon.

My mom walked out of a church once because one of the deacons was basically telling people to vote democrat. Interestingly, this sort of thing once encouraged African-Americans to get out en masse to vote for Clinton and now is probably encouraging voters to go for Obama instead of Hillary.

For the record, I think churches should be about moral support and charity and not so much politics, but "it is what it is".

[alan]

I'm a Deist by instinct, and from my perspective, though the remark was crude, the 'God Damn America' was not so much offensive as it was in error. Like Dylan's tune, 'God on Their Side', with the refrain, 'too many have died with God on their side', there is no nation that has God on their side, and conversely, none that are uniquely damned by God.

Many Black leaders speak of America as if she were uniquely evil instead of being all too typical of the human condition. It is the same smugness, but in drag, that we find in Neocon Nationalist who preach of the goodness of these United States.

I particularly hated Stephen Ambrose's rhetoric about the unique nature of the American soldier as a beacon of hope instead of a force of terror in the world. It is historical bullshit, as there have been a few instances where we were greeted as liberators, and far many more where our tanks rolled on the battle field in deliverance of collateral damage.

For me, it brings about a few questions: given the propensity towards irrational sentimentality that preachers have and the influence they weld on a large number of people, to what extent are they a destructive force in society?

BTW, on a lighter note, if you were to reword 'God Bless America' into its opposite tune, how would it go?

God Damn American, My Hell, bitter Hell?

[alan]

I particularly hated Stephen Ambrose's rhetoric about the unique nature of the American soldier as a beacon of hope instead of a force of terror in the world.

To be clarify, he was stating that the American soldier was unique as unlike every other nation's soldier, he was not feared by the people, but brought them hope.

[alan]

to be clear, to clarify, I couldn't make up my mind which phrase sounded better, so I mangle both as a compromise.

[dave f.]

Certainly no one, including Rev. Jeremiah Wright, should compliment Louis Farrakhan. If this what Hit & Run is referring to by calling him a "lunatic," fine.

It seems, however, to be another time this blog has teamed up with Talk Radio to denounce people who are not stringent nationalists.
(see the blog's praise of war-monger and neocon jackass Jonah Goldberg)

The things Wright has been denounced for saying by Talk Radio are a bit hyperbolic but, like Art-P.O.G. said, it makes sense in context.

Wright denounces America's unjust wars, foreign policy blunders, human rights violations and, whether white men like me like it or not, the fact that public policy tends to favor rich and powerful (white) people and fuck over minorities, particularly black men (i.e. the war on drugs and the justice system.)

[Eric Dondero]

Next shoe to drop:

Obama identitied as participant in Farrakhan's Million Man March on DC.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Many Black leaders speak of America as if she were uniquely evil instead of being all too typical of the human condition. It is the same smugness, but in drag, that we find in Neocon Nationalist who preach of the goodness of these United States.

Very well said.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Obama identitied as participant in Farrakhan's Million Man March on DC

I think Spike Lee, Goodie MOb and Lord knows who else were there, too. Even though Farrakhan's views are way out of the mainstream, "The Million Man March" got Farrakhan some respect as an organizer. If this sort of thing passes as "controversy" I really don't know what to say.

[ilanlar]

I thought Obama was the Manchurian Muslim candidate?

[onlyalad]

Sigh. The same bunch of folks who jumped all over Ron Paul for his newsletters are willing to give Obama a pass for what I think is more or less the same thing.

After all the fracas, it looked like RP's newsletters were written by someone else. Clearly it wasn't Obama himself who said God Damn America either. But both candidates are closely associated with the people who did say/write those things. If you expected Paul to immediately explain himself, why not Obama?

I don't think Obama believes in those things himself (although judging by his wife's comments I do wonder what kind of talk goes on in the Obama home) but it looks bad all the same, and will probably hurt him in the general election because let's face it, the GE is all about image anyway.

As far as putting Wright's remarks "into context" making them understandable and all...well that only works if you buy into the idea that "blacks can't be racist." They can be and are all the time, maybe even more so than whites.

[Art-P.O.G.]

if you buy into the idea that "blacks can't be racist." They can be and are all the time,

Dude, I'm black. You don't have to tell me. In fact I subscribe to "ego trip's Big Book of Racism" theory that everybody is basically some kind of bigot.
I personally didn't jump all over Paul and I didn't jump all over Obama either. So at least from my perspective, my behavior is consistent.

[Fluffy]

Onlyalad,

For the most part, Wright's Afrocentrism hasn't really been the part to "stick" in the faux-outrage game being played here. It's been the anti-Americanism.

I think the Afrocentrism is juvenile and sophmoric.

But it's just silly for libertarians in particular to walk around shaking our heads and muttering about this guy's supposed anti-Americanism, because as I've pointed out before if you add up all the things libertarians say are unjust and wrong about America, we pretty much "hate" America too.

Read this blog for a couple of days. Just about every entry is a lament of the foolishnes, mendacity, injustice or cruelty of the political class. Just about every one. And most of our heroes don't appear on no stamps either.

If Radley Balko was a preacher, would he at some point have said, "God damn Mississippi"? I think he would have.

[VM]

joe - good plan!

[Episiarch]

Who cares what Obama's preacher had to say? These guys are insane already: they believe in voices in the sky*. However, I would say that this torpedoes Obama's campaign (cue scary "Hillary did it" music). But since Spitzer (my favorite subject) also kneecaps Hillary to an extent, and Obama is ahead in delegates, this merely evens them again.

Which increases the chances of a convention bloodbath. I love it!

I'm afraid of when Spitzer is out of the headlines. I'm like a drug addict; his fall is my fix, and when it's gone I'm going to crash 🙁

* can't take it with you when you die

[joe]

onlyalad,

If you expected Paul to immediately explain himself, why not Obama?

I do, and he did. He denounced what Wright said, and could do so more credibly than Paul, because Wright's sermons weren't going out above Obama's name, with his endorsement.

[Mike Laursen]

What joe said. (Ow, that always hurts.)

[VM]

onlyalad -

what joe said. your confirmation bias is alive and kicking, it appears.

[J sub D]

I'm afraid of when Spitzer is out of the headlines. I'm like a drug addict; his fall is my fix, and when it's gone I'm going to crash 🙁

Not to woory, Episiarch. Click here for the next couple of weeks. It's an intro to loads and loads of sleazy pleasure.

[Neu Mejican]

If Radley Balko was a preacher, would he at some point have said, "God damn Mississippi"? I think he would have.

Or "Mississippi, God Damn."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckarOiWLLtY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEX19zLQezU

[BTS]

A day late, I know:

Kill Ms. Clinton
I'll love you forever
But you'll go to jail

[Neu Mejican]

Open thread?

This paper, then, is a serious analysis of a ridiculous subject, which is of course the opposite of what is usual in economics.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf

[Ali]

NM- I always thought that Kruman is a nut. That is a fun paper.

[Neu Mejican]

Ali,

Would have gone better in the "Doritoes in Space" thread, but I figured the H&R crowd had the right intersection between sci-fi geek & economic theorists that someone would enjoy it.

3quarksdaily.com for more of this kind of stuff.
A great blog.

[Cesar]

Many Black leaders speak of America as if she were uniquely evil instead of being all too typical of the human condition. It is the same smugness, but in drag, that we find in Neocon Nationalist who preach of the goodness of these United States.

Great statement, one of the best analysis I've heard. People often act like the United States is either God almighty or Satan himself. The truth, as always, is in the middle.

I'm sick of hearing both attitudes, but I've heard the former much more than the latter, particularly around 2002-2003. It made me sick.

[Cesar]

Speaking from a purely political viewpoint, though: this is going to dog him the rest of the campaign.

[Ali]

NM- Cool website. The video of Wafa Sultan is full of a lot of crap, though.

[NAL]

Speaking from a purely political viewpoint, though: this is going to dog him the rest of the campaign.

Agreed.

[Cesar]

And its unfortunate that it will. Swiftboat politics at its "best".

[Art-P.O.G.]

NM,
Nice find on the Nina Simone clips.

[J sub D]

And its unfortunate that it will. Swiftboat politics at its "best".

I am assuming that this is all from the Clinton campaign or it's shadow supporters. It seems to me if the McCain folks had this, they'd hold onto it until after the Democratic convention. Never over estimate the voters attention spans. This will all be water under the bridge by November.

[Whipper]

So now Reason promotes loveable old wheelchair-bound Stalinists? Must be a cosmo thing.

[Cesar]

J sub D-

I agree its probably from Clinton. McCain, to his credit, doesn't seem to want to run that kind of campaign.

But I don't think it will be forgotten. Remember, it was none other than Al Gore who first brought up Willie Horton against Dukakis in 1988.

[Warty]

Haiku day over?
I reject your rules, man.
This haiku was poor.

[Cesar]

BTW, in case anyone missed it, we lost our spot for the first time as the worlds largest economy this week thanks to the weak dollar.

[Ali]

Cesar- Who did we loose it to? China, I am guessing.

[Cesar]

Cesar- Who did we loose it to? China, I am guessing.

Nope. European Union.

[edna]

i really believe
you are no poet, warty
haiku day is done!

[J sub D]

Cesar- Who did we loose it to? China, I am guessing.

Nope. European Union.

If "European Union" is an economy, shouldn't NAFTA signatories be one economy as well? If so, how does that stack up?

[Cesar]

J Sub D-

I should've said "Euro zone". It doesn't include the countries which haven't brought their economies up to get the Euro yet in Eastern Europe.

NAFTA would probably be larger, though I'm not sure. Nevertheless we don't have a common currency so thats why its not compared.

[J sub D]

NAFTA would probably be larger, though I'm not sure. Nevertheless we don't have a common currency so thats why its not compared.

I see. Somehow I'm unconcerned. Along those (NAFTA) lines, I propose expanding the agreement across the Pacific by including Australia and New Zealand.. The North American Australasian Free Trade Agreement (NAAFTA) would be something to behold. Lonewacko could then start railing about Maoris.

[Cesar]

J sub D, I can tell our economy is in the shitter every week when I go to the grocery store. Food prices are outrageous now. Have you seen what a pound of beef or chicken costs?

[joe]

Cesar | March 15, 2008, 12:04pm | #

Speaking from a purely political viewpoint, though: this is going to dog him the rest of the campaign.

Sure it will, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily be fatal. Questions about Dubya's National Guard service dogged him through the 2004 campaign.

He did a good job minimizing it last night. It's not gone, of course. It's just, as the firefighters say, contained, or mostly contained.

[Cesar]

Joe I think this is more like Kerry throwing his Vietnam medals over the fence and then making that ridiculous speech in front of a Senate committee than Bush's national guard service.

[joe]

J Sub D, Cesar,

I am assuming that this is all from the Clinton campaign or it's shadow supporters.

I think it's notable that this story came out immediately after McCain took hits for associating with two loony reverends of his own.

McCain, to his credit, doesn't seem to want to run that kind of campaign. He hasn't, but a certain segment of his supporters certainly do.

I think Obama is in a better position to beat this back than Dukakis, because the message he's been preaching the entire campaign - the post-racial, unity, hopeful message, and the wonderfulness of a country where someone like him can be a presidential candidate - run directly counter to what Wright has been saying. So, unlike Dukakis being charged with being "soft on crime," Obama can point to his own record and statements to refute the charge.

He's also a much more skilled politician than Mike Dukakis.

[Ali]

I never had a rent increase by as much as $100 due to inflation. Tuition, at a couple of colleges that I am acquainted with, have increased their tuition by 12%. All the time, incomes will probably stay the same.

[vm]

china??? you have got to be kidding!

those measurements are pretty silly anyways.

[vm]

*hands these guys a copy of Romer's macroeconomics*

*heads out*

[joe]

Cesar,

Joe I think this is more like Kerry throwing his Vietnam medals over the fence and then making that ridiculous speech in front of a Senate committee than Bush's national guard service. How so?

I think this is unlike both of them, since in both of those situations, it was the candidate himself who engaged in the questionable activities.

And what was wrong with Kerry's speech? Have you ever read it?

[Cesar]

Joe, Republican attacks turned John Kerry from a war hero to a leftist coward. That ran counter to the facts mostly, too. It didn't stop it from being effective.

[Cesar]

I think anyone who followed the 2004 election heard Kerry's speech many times in the swiftboat ads. You know, the stuff about limbs being cut off and testicles being electrocuted. Nice stuff.

[joe]

Cesar,

Few people ended up believing the Swift Boat smears. The harm those charges did to Kerry came from his absent, inadequate response, which made him look like he couldn't fight back and run an effective campaign.

Obama doesn't have that problem, because he responded immediately.

[joe]

So, no, you didn't read his speech.

It was a good speech, and his charges have been borne out. Yes, Virginia, the US military really did commit atrocities in Vietnam.

[Cesar]

Joe, Vietnam Veterans Against the War was and is a pretty fringe group. He wasn't helped by his membership in it.

[Cesar]

I hope Obama if hes the nominee and McCain make some kind of agreement about 527s. Clinton wouldn't, though.

[J sub D]

He's also a much more skilled politician than Mike Dukakis.

Zippy the Pinhead is a more skilled politician than Dukakis.

[Cesar]

One silver lining for Obama is at least now nobody will think hes a Muslim.

[Click \'n\' Learn]

J sub D writes: The North American Australasian Free Trade Agreement (NAAFTA) would be something to behold. Lonewacko could then start railing about Maoris.

Gosh, useful idiots are such fun, aren't they? See the third point in my first comment on this thread.

There are other useful idiot opportunities too. For instance, you can see a movie funded by the MexicanGovernment that, oddly enough, supports that government's efforts to profit from IllegalActivity.

[joe]

VVAW did, indeed, become a very fringe group, Cesar, especially later. But by all accounts, Kerry was a moderating influence. He also quit when it started to go hard-left.

His testimony to Congress was completely defensible. Which made it that much more frustrating that he refused to defend it. I found it on a site from "Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry." It's mostly about the poor quality of the treatment veterans were getting, and the pointlessness of the war.

[Cesar]

BTW, does anyone know who "The weathermen" are? Some right-wing sites keep saying Obama was part of the "Weathermen" or had some kind of connection to them. Sounds like a band name.

[joe]

Zippy the Pinhead is a more skilled politician than Dukakis.

I've seen Mike Dukakis person. He's witty, charismatic, quick on his feet, and highly intelligent and educated.

I think it was a problem of letting his consultants over-ride his own judgement in '88, like Kerry did in '04.

[joe]

Obama is on CNN right now, speaking from Indiana.

He's doing what I wrote earlier, casting Wright's inflammatory statements as an example of what he's running against: old, racially divisive thinking.

Nice ju-jistu. It casts those who bring up Wright as the ones promoting racial divisiveness.

[joe]

It's a tough trick to pull off, but he's able to do it, because he's spent over a year pushing that same message.

It might end up helping him, and not only with the Muslim thing. He just might be able to use this to highlight how different his beliefs are from people like Wright.

[J sub D]

I've seen Mike Dukakis person. He's witty, charismatic, quick on his feet, and highly intelligent and educated.

giving him his due, he did double George Wallace's 1968 electoral vote tally. Face it joe, Massachusetts hasn't produced a full assed national politician since JFK. Lots of half assed national politicians, (Dukakis, Teddy Kennedy, Mitt Romney, some guy in 2004), but nobody who could go national.

[Cesar]

Well, I'm not sure if you can really count Mitt Romney as "from Massachusetts". Hes kind of a Michiglander-via-Utah to Massachusetts.

[joe]

J sub D,

John Kerry came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime president than anyone in American history. He covered the spread, and that's not too bad.

[Cesar]

I'll say that Kerry was a better candidate than Gore. Closely losing the election challenging an incumbent when the country really isn't doing that great is more impressive than closely losing when you're party is in power at a time of peace and economic prosperity.

[joe]

Anyone can write a haiku. highnumber laid down a challenge to me over at Urkobold: he wanted a sonnet.

Whaddya think?

Attorney General destroyed his prey
And didn't let a single one avoid
The perp walk, or the elocution day.
He left the Street's brash titans paranoid.
So pitiless, so certain of his own
Propriety and his unspoiled name.
He made them twist, he hunted them for fun
The state house, just the next square in his game.

But we all know the gods can play games, too,
And think in four dimensions when they choose.
And when they formed his heart, by Jove they knew
The drive that raised him high would make him lose
All that he'd gained from rooting out the grime
That gathered under other people's nails.
When your own ship has bilges full of slime,
Don't put to sea with alabaster sails.

[J sub D]

Actually, Kerry came pretty damn close. He should have won it.

[J sub D]

joe -
Not bad, Shakespeare is not worried by the competition, but not bad at all.

My mother was also frightened at a medieval festival while carrying me. Hence, no fucking sonnets.

[joe]

CNN just now: "A group of black pastors plans to denounce Barack Obama for denouncing Reverend Wright."

Ohnoes! Please don't throw him in the briar patch!

[Ali]

Pastor, what pastor? I thought Obama was a Muslim?

[Cesar]

A group of black pastors plans to denounce Barack Obama for denouncing Reverend Wright."

If thats true this could be Sistah Souljah again.

[Cesar]

Er, "Sister Souljah".

[alan]

I am assuming that this is all from the Clinton campaign or it's shadow supporters. It seems to me if the McCain folks had this, they'd hold onto it until after the Democratic convention. Never over estimate the voters attention spans. This will all be water under the bridge by November.

I have always wondered who slipped the mentalhealth records of General Powell's wife to the press in 1995 when it looked like there was a chance he would run for the presidency. Clinton's camp? Doles, or
someone else who was running that year.

BTW, this may be something you never hear anyone say, but put all political matters to the side, I like John Kerry. He appeals to my sense of blue blood propriety.

[Click \'n\' Learn]

Barack Obama is not a former member of TheWeatherman... at least as far as I know. He could have been, but I'm not sure.

However, is does have some association with a former leader of that group. That leader bombed some buildings and is a self-admitted terrorist.

[alan]

Cesar, you always
so down on Barack's chances.
Why harsh my mellow?

He is just being realistic. Take the Obama support with the youth vote in current polls and slice that baby in half and you will get a better idea of his standing. The youth don't vote, and the seniors who are very positive towards McCain will give him the election. While we Xers and Boomers in the middle will look perplexed and ask, 'how the hell did that happen? The polls had Obama up by 10 points just the day before the election?'

[J sub D]

Lonewhacko,

Do you really believe that anybody with multiple funcutioning neurons gives a shit about that non-story? If that is the best that his detractors can come up with, get used to the term President Obama.

Sheesh!

[Cesar]

Ok, "The Weathermen" were active in the late 60s. Obama was in elementary school at the time. Either hes the worlds youngest terrorist or this is a really sorry attempt to inject the 60s into a campaign where the target of the attack WAS A CHILD at the time.

[J sub D]

The youth don't vote, and the seniors who are very positive towards McCain will give him the election.

The youth have been voting in the primaries. They don't like the war, and I will make the bold(?) prediction that we will see a large uptick in under 30 voting this November.

[Chris Potter]

John Kerry came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime president than anyone in American history. He covered the spread, and that's not too bad.

In other words, he did better than Thomas Dewey in 1944. That's a pretty small sample size, isn't it?

The only other elections taking place during foreign wars were 1952 and 1968, and the incumbent wasn't running in either of those.

[Chris Potter]

Oh yeah, I guess 1972 counts as well. So he outperformed Dewey and McGovern. Yay for him.

[Cesar]

Chris, don't forget he outperformed George McClellan and DeWitt Clinton.

[Chris Potter]

McClellan wasn't during a foreign war.

I don't know about the other guy, when did he run?

[Cesar]

I don't know about the other guy, when did he run?

DeWitt Clinton of New York (perhaps a relative of Bill?) ran as a Federalist against Madison during the War of 1812. Joe just said "war" not "foreign wars" though both are rare during Presidential elections.

[Scooby]

John Kerry came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime president than anyone in American history.

I don't know that there are enough data points for a valid comparison. There have been only 3 incumbent wartime presidents up for re-election during real wars: FDR in 1944, Lincoln in 1864, Madison in 1812. If you count Vietnam, Johnson was 1 for 2 (forfeiting in 1968), and Nixon got a gimme in 1972.

Did Bush's handling of the war gain him any votes in 2004, or did it merely not lose him enough votes?

[Click, Read, and Think]

If you'd clicked the earlier link, you'd find that that links to this, which discusses recent events, not 1972:

...we are talking about [BHO's buddy from TheWeathermen] hosting a fundraiser for Barack Obama and actively working with him to secure Barack's first electoral victory in Illinois. But wait, there is more. Barack and [TheWeatherman] also served on the board of the Woods Fund. And they worked together to give money to some other folks, including a group with ties to the PLO.

[J sub D]

Hey Lonewacko,

A pretty anglo-saxon girl has a message for you.

[Art-P.O.G.]

I read your links, wacko. Bill Ayers, you dirty hippie.

[alan]

The youth have been voting in the primaries. They don't like the war, and I will make the bold(?) prediction that we will see a large uptick in under 30 voting this November.

Yep, optimistically, that will give him around fifty percent of the total who say they will vote for him actually coming out on election day.

[J sub D]

Alan, Let us not forget there are white men in their 50s considering casting a ballot for him, rathet than John (campaign finance reform/100 years in Iraq) McCain.

[Cesar]

It would be supremely ironic if Barack Obama becomes the first Democrat to win a majority (or even plurality) of the white male vote since LBJ.

[Fluffy]

If serving on the same board as someone who has committed nefarious deeds disqualifies you from office, we've got a problem, because the absolutely discredited rogue Colin Powell is a ubiquitous figure on corporate and nonprofits boards nationwide.

When everyone who ever served on any board with Colin Powell takes their lumps, let me know.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Bill Ayers made me think of this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

Their backgrounds before becoming domestic terrorists clould not have been more different. Also their "careers" couldn't have ended much differently.

[Happy Jack]

If serving on the same board as someone who has committed nefarious deeds disqualifies you from office, we've got a problem

Doesn't sound like much of a problem. McCain has a war criminal in the position of honorary co-chair. I haven't heard any complaints yet.

[Art-P.O.G.]

McCain has a war criminal in the position of honorary co-chair

Link? please?

[TallDave]

"I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my family." - disgraced New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer, March 10.

What about the poor, innocent hookers who are now tragically unemployed?

Won't someone please think of the hookers??

[TallDave]

Art,

And only one got to hang out with a Presidential candidate.

Just goes to show: if you're going to be a terrorist, be a left-wing terrorist. Hey, you could be on college dorm walls for decades!

[alan]

The way I really should put it is this -- if Obama has a winning strategy, he should not count on the youth vote. People forget how dysfunctional the 18 to 22 or so age group is -- they really will forget trivial things like registering to vote, the date of the vote, the correct place to vote in their district and even to send in their ballot through the mail in states that have that.

Few of us remember those as our stupid years because we were too stupid then to know how stupid we were. Apologies to anyone reading this in that age group but you will forget my remarks in a few minutes when you start thinking about that person who makes you horny and with whom you are obsessed all over again for the one hundredth time today.

One error that could easily slip past him is forgetting to defend Social Security and Medicare. Being the Democratic nominee he will assume those issues are his and the elderly will see it that way. Republicans are good at running stealth campaigns in retirement communities, VFW halls, and other stomping grounds of blue haired set that are arcane to us and fly under the democratic machine radar as well. The Republicans will tell them that the Democrats have wild schemes to transfer the SS 'trustfund' to illegal immagrants while McCain will be frugal with the
their hard earned savings. Crazy stuff, but it works.

[alan]

immagrants

you read that right, grants to any one named Imma is illegal.

[alan]

bleh,

grants to any one named Imma is illegal.

Grammar police, I'll just turn myself in in the morning.

[Ali]

This whole bail out of Bear Sterns is pretty stupid and unfair. Any takes on this?

[edna]

i have a take on that. i think it's stupid and unfair. wsj had a nice editorial today about it.

[Happy Jack]

Link? please?

Here

[Ali]

edna, my small (hypothetical) businness has some problems, shouldn't the fed then bail me out? I mean, come one, I have 2 (hypothetical) employees who are going to loose their jobs as a consequence of my poor decision making. No fairness in the world?

[Art-P.O.G.]

I looked at Kissinger's quote page on Wiki, and all I can say is, "if it's accurate, yikes."

[edna]

No fairness in the world?

i'm trying to teach my seven-year-old how to play baseball. he's having a lot of trouble with the catching. his problem boils down to not getting the concept that the ball is going to go where it's going to go and he'd better go where it's gonna be. it's not going to veer toward him, he has to observe its path and act accordingly; it's already on its way. that's the part he's not getting.

[Ali]

edna- I could see multiple applications of that lesson in discussions you and I regularly have. The thing is, the ball obeys "fair" and predictable laws of nature.

[Ali]

In other words, if the ball takes up its own set of physical laws, totally disregards "natural" physical laws, I see no way that your 7-year old will ever be able to deal with the ball in any rational way.

[shrike]

Sweet public frottage
I stand rapt in amazement
Prufrock, I am not.

[edna]

the point is, once launched, its path is set, he cannot affect it unless he goes to where the ball's path is going to take it. and then (and only then) he has a lot of choices. instead, he complains that the ball was too high or too low of too far to the left... it's supposed to go here not there.

[edna]

"or too far"

sorry, shitty keyboard. keys aren't where they're supposed to be.

[Chris Potter]

The difference is, of course, that at least in theory we govern ourselves. So in your analogy we can alter the ball's path by our choices.

But if we can't influence the actions of our govt, this site is pretty pointless, no? Wouldn't it amount to just so much bitching?

[Jon H]

edna wrote:"four years in a concentration camp didn't make primo levi say stupid things."

20th century American racists didn't wear snappy uniforms to distinguish them from their neighbors, nor were they beaten in war, nor were the movement leaders prosecuted and executed.

Primo Levi could be pretty secure in knowing the people in power weren't Nazis.

If Primo were around today, and Jews were being imprisoned to the same proportion that blacks are, he might well have felt differently.

[Jon H]

wacko:" Barack and [TheWeatherman] also served on the board of the Woods Fund."

So who else was on the board?

We must expunge these terrorist buddies from public life.

[Fritz]

Given the fact that the government's doings have by and large the consent, either explicit or implied, of a majority of the populace, it would make sense, in context, to condemn it for the shitty hand its government has dealt most blacks in the country. After all, the black man in To Kill A Mockingbird was wrongfully convicted of rape by a jury of citizens from the county, and the government that put him away was enabled not just by the people of the county but by the people of the state, and of the nation, who were either to racist or indifferent to effect a change (or, simply, enforce the 14th Amendment). Chalking it all up to the abstract entity of "the government" while exonerating the American public would seem unreasonable, no?

But I digress. Why are people going apeshit over the rhetoric of a preacher? He's not a part of the Obama campaign, and his entire job is emotionalism and hyperbole; it seems inappropriate to treat him with that much intellectual rigor.

Though maybe, in the first paragraph, I did just that.

[edna]

Primo Levi could be pretty secure in knowing the people in power weren't Nazis.

ummmm, they were. that's why he was in auschwitz.

If Primo were around today, and Jews were being imprisoned to the same proportion that blacks are, he might well have felt differently.

ummmm, it was like 100%.

Here, have some kool-aid. oh, had it already?

[ilanlar]

the Friday thread

[Art-P.O.G.]

Nobody has anything to say about Kissinger as McCain's co-chair?

[Fluffy]

Edna, I think the comparison is being made to Levi's writing after he was out of Auschwitz.

[Fluffy]

Art, earlier in the primary season I frequently pointed out the crazy people on Giuliani's set of foreign policy advisors, because I hoped people would consider how that group would crazify the foreign policy of a Giuliani administration.

There's no need to do that with Kissinger and McCain because I think everybody already knows that McCain is crazy.

Kissinger can't sell any of his crazy to McCain because McCain's crazy bin is already full.

[joe]

Chris Potter,

Where did you get "foreign?" As if the Civil War wasn't "wartime?"

There have been five wartime incumbents - FDR, Wilson, Lincoln, Nixon, and Madison - who ran for re-election. (Six, if you count LBJ in 1964, which is borderline). All five (six) won, and they all won by bigger margins than Bush in 2004.

[joe]

Wow, edna, way to miss the point.

[Episiarch]

I would appreciate it if we could get back to talking about Spitzer. I need...more. Hold on, I have to snort something.

[Art-P.O.G.]

But after going through all this, it seems that to hold politicians to a higher moral standard than, say, your next door neighbor Rick is to invite disappointment. Or in the Spitzer case, for instance, delicious revelations. I don't know. At different times McCain, Obama and Clinton have all disappointed me pretty badly.

[Episiarch]

Yes, who could have known that placing any trust whatsoever in people who go through the unmitigated shit that one has to go through for political office, might find that trust misplaced. Who, I ask?

[Art-P.O.G.]

Yeah, yeah, I know. The Founding Fathers :p

[Art-P.O.G.]

Cut me some slack, I'm young. 😉

[joe]

Yes, who could have known that placing any trust whatsoever in people who go through the unmitigated shit that one has to go through for political office, might find that trust misplaced. Who, I ask?

The people on Ron Paul threads?

[edna]

Edna, I think the comparison is being made to Levi's writing after he was out of Auschwitz.

even worse, then. the good reverend is living and speaking in the 21st century u.s. at the time of his "god damn america" screeds, he was rich, well-connected, and had an upper-class congregation. i don't think he was in much danger of a lynch mob.

[Chris Potter]

joe,

A civil war is a far different creature from a foreign war. And I'm not sure where you're getting Wilson from, as we weren't at war in either 1912 or 1916. Also, the War of 1812 had barely begun at the time of Madison's reelection.

In any case, we've had 54 presidential elections; I don't think a sample of even five is very convincing.

[Cesar]

Yeah, we were at peace in 1916. Wilson even ran on a slogan that said "he kept us out of war".

[J sub D]

At different times McCain, Obama and Clinton have all disappointed me pretty badly.

If a politician, even one you fervently support, hasn't disappointed you on occasion, your thinking abilities are on par with followers of this guy. Fanboys are pathetic.

[Scooby]

Maybe we should add in a couple of data-points (I alluded to one in my previous post). LBJ in 1968 declined to run for re-election because it was a lost cause. Likewise, Polk declined to run for reelection immediately after the Mexican American War (another somewhat unpopular war of questionable justification, although unlike Vietnam and Iraq, it was actually declared by Congress).

I don't see why these two examples should be excluded from the analysis just because they were so unpopular that they couldn't get nominated for a second term, even if they "voluntarily" declined to seek the nomination.

[Cesar]

Polk declined mostly because he was in agony from stomach cancer. It had little to do with politics. He could've won re-election, he was an extremely successful President in what he set out to do.

[J sub D]

I do not give a rat's ass about what a candidates priest or preacher, mullah or shaman, rails about. Those that are so worried about the minister at Obama's church, likely had no problem with this photo op. The dogma of any religion or sect is replete with nonsense and outright whackery. Even yours.

Some of the clergy are firebrands, some are markedly less so.

Perspective folks. Calling on hellfire to exhort the faithful is not exactly a new tactic in the annals of soul saving.

[Fluffy]

even worse, then. the good reverend is living and speaking in the 21st century u.s. at the time of his "god damn america" screeds, he was rich, well-connected, and had an upper-class congregation. i don't think he was in much danger of a lynch mob.

Well, it sucks that I have to stand up for the guy who was arguing against me, but that's what that poster was saying, edna. Primo Levi was offered as an example of the opposite reaction to Wright's.

But honestly, it doesn't really matter if Wright's congregation was wealthy or not. The Founding Fathers were mostly wealthy men with comfortable lifestyles relative to the time. But when they thought they were treated unjustly they renounced the king and killed his servants until they gave up trying to enforce the king's writ. Did any of them ever damn the king? I have to think it's quite likely.

[BakedPenguin]

If a politician, even one you fervently support, hasn't disappointed you on occasion...

I'm still waiting for the occasion when a politician in office 'appoints' me.

[joe]

A civil war is a far different creature from a foreign war.

In some ways, it is. In the sense of causing the public to rally 'round the flag, and the president gaining the boost in near-reverential respect as the "Commander in Chief."

And while 5 is a fairly small sample size, a 100% outcome within that sample is still highly suggestive.

edna,

even worse, then. the good reverend is living and speaking in the 21st century u.s. at the time of his "god damn america" screeds, he was rich, well-connected, and had an upper-class congregation. i don't think he was in much danger of a lynch mob. So war Primo Levi after the war. And before the war, as opposed to Wright.

[joe]

Not Wilson, right.

But FDR counts twice - 1940 and 1944. We were escorting ships and girding for the war in 1940.

[P Brooks]

days late dollars short

missed spitzer haiku friday

busy making stuff

[Cesar]

Joe, FDR said he wasn't going to "send us into any foreign wars" when he campaigned in 1940. He didn't exactly run on a war platform.

[joe]

He was also, very publically, arming up. Lend-lease was in effect.

It is a question of his platform - as we saw in 2004, the incumbency benefit doesn't accrue based on the public's support for the President's platform - but to seeing him as the Commander in Chief during scary times, and not wanting to be seen "undermining" that president and "sending a message" to the scary bad guys.

[joe]

Er, it "ISN'T" a question of his platform. Nixon's platform in 1972 was "I'm ending the war."

[Syd]

Cesar | March 16, 2008, 10:59am | #
Yeah, we were at peace in 1916. Wilson even ran on a slogan that said "he kept us out of war".

On the other hand, you might want to add McKinley. We were fighting a pretty major war in the Philippines in 1900 which has gotten mostly written out of the history books.

[joe]

McKinley! Not Wilson, McKinley.

Duhhhhh, I are teh smrat!

Thank you, Syd.

[alan]

Cesar | March 16, 2008, 10:59am | #
Yeah, we were at peace in 1916. Wilson even ran on a slogan that said "he kept us out of war".

On the other hand, you might want to add McKinley. We were fighting a pretty major war in the Philippines in 1900 which has gotten mostly written out of the history books.

Are you guys still arguing over that miniscule point? Still? Howley, how about another take on feminist individualism, or Moynihan, a dispatch from the middle east, anything but this comma inducing argument. Anyone want to count angels on the head of a pin? Anything.

[alan]

see, you induced commas from me, way to go, jerks. Now off to slip into a coma.

[VM]

alan, you're totally wrong.

it is a diminutive point. Wee, if you will. Maybe petite but certainly not "miniscule".

Mein gott. how could you make such a basic error? You know, for a poster named alan...

[alan]

I simply meant that the argument had a limited magnitude of interest, so there for it was a miniscule argument.

[alan]

I do see the point you making, I would hope for a little flexibility in syntactical usage on a sleepy Sunday afternoon.

[alan]

Pat, I would like to buy an 'are'.

You mean an 'r'?

Nope, pretty sure I could use an 'are' there.

[VM]

lol!

[edna]

Did any of them ever damn the king? I have to think it's quite likely.

of course they did. and if a protoge decided to run for house of commons in england, it would be a legitimate question for english voters to consider.

my own pov: who cares? it's voices-from-the-sky nonsense. but anything that gets us closer to split, gridlocked government, consumed with internal bickering, is a.o.k. with me.

[prolefeed]

If a politician, even one you fervently support, hasn't disappointed you on occasion...

I'm still waiting for the occasion when a politician in office 'appoints' me.

Baked wins the thread!

[Chris Potter]

He was also, very publically, arming up. Lend-lease was in effect.

Well if all we had to be doing was "arming up" to make one a wartime president, then the defeat of incumbents Ford and Carter during the Cold War, to name just a couple, need to be added in as well.

As for the topicality police complaining about this argument, I apologize for disrupting the lively discussion of important matters that was going on previously. [/sarcasm]

[Chris Potter]

In the matter of 1900, the Phillippines was US territory at the time, so that wasn't a foreign war either.

[Click \'n\' Learn]

In other news, our friends in the MexicanGovernment are making it harder and harder to tell the difference between useful idiots and outright traitors.

[alan]

As for the topicality police complaining about this argument

Sarcasm or not, you should apologize.

The 'my history buff(oonary)is better than your history buff(oonary' has been a real winner and crowd pleaser since almost the very beginning of the internet when the first message ever to be sent over ARPANET occurred at 10:30 PM on October 29, 1969. Only a few minutes after that the scientist doing the testing began to argue about who was the true originator of the calculus, Newton or Leibniz. After which there was a diversion into another discussion concerning Buffalo Bill's accuracy with a hand revolver versus his well known steady shot with a Winchester rifle. The contentiousness of the second debate caused the entire system to collapse, and it was well over a year before it could be put in operation again.

You see, history kills and its discussion destroys.

[joe]

Well if all we had to be doing was "arming up" to make one a wartime president, then the defeat of incumbents Ford and Carter during the Cold War, to name just a couple, need to be added in as well.

Wow. Yes, Chris, 1940 was exactly like 1976.

I've got a good biography of George Marshall I can recommend if you want to expand your understanding of the politics of that era.

In the matter of 1900, the Phillippines was US territory at the time, so that wasn't a foreign war either. So? I don't think hiding behind the word "foreign war" is going to save you here.

[PapayaSF]

Fluffy, neither Hagee nor Robertson are McCain's spiritual mentors of 20 years. McCain hasn't (AFAIK) donated five-figure sums to their churches. McCain hasn't (again AFAIK) written about how influential they were in his beliefs. In fact, McCain has said harsh things about Robertson. The relationships are not at all comparable to that of Obama & Wright.

Joe, I suppose you're one of those "only whites can be racist" types, but most libertarians want a level playing field for all races. We want to get along with people regardless of their race, and dislike singling out people's race as a means to attack them. Giving a "lifetime achievement award" to Farrakhan, who believes that the white race was the creation of a mad black scientist, would be considered pretty racist by most people.

I'll grant you every injustice ever done to American blacks, but it still doesn't justify "allegiance to Africa," "avoiding Middleclassness," a "black value system," "the US created AIDS to kill blacks," and all the other Black Liberation Theology and conspiracy crap that Wright spews. It's wrong, misguided, divisive, and doesn't help the people he says he wants to help. If this is common in African-American churches, that's a tragedy, not an excuse for Wright and Obama.

[alan]

To put it in perspective, you have been arguing on the validity of a point Joe made on John Kerry's presidential race in 2004 for the past two days.

[Chris Potter]

. Yes, Chris, 1940 was exactly like 1976.

Indeed, it is preposterous to compare elections from different eras with completely different types of wars and military buildups going on.

Face it, the reasons John Kerry lost had very little to do with a "don't change horses in the middle of the stream" attitude among the American public. The guy was Bush Lite with an extra helping of Botox and waffles.

[Chris Potter]

I also wonder if the other candidates who lost to incumbent wartime presidents were leading in national polls the week before the election before blowing it. Or whether they were leading in the polls at all during the campaign. I really doubt either was the case in 1972 or 1944, and the others occurred before modern methods of polling developed, so we'll never know.

[Chris Potter]

alan,

Well, I haven't only been doing that -- it's been filler between my main weekend activities. Like...well, I did laundry this morning...

[Ali]

edna- are you missing a "shift" key on your keyboard? this thing you do is rubbing on me. i like the minimalism associated with it.

[Cesar]

Papaya-

Do you honestly believe Obama shares the views of his pastor? Do you think he really agrees with what his pastor said in those quotes? Do you think Obama hates white people?

[J sub D]

Do you think Obama hates white people?

Considering that his mother is a member of the set, I consider it extremely unlikely. Whether this will have any traction with the great unwashed, otherwise known as the electorate, remains to be seen. If anybody has no disagreements with their clergy about spiritual, cultural or political subjects, speak up. Even when I was a papist (the shame of it all!), I thought the pope was full of it on a number of issues.

[Cesar]

J sub D-

Thats what I was aiming at. Obama obviously doesn't hate white people, he was raised by them.

[edna]

ali, no, i lost my pinkie fingers in an accident. it involved c batteries and a wolverine. don't ask.

[J sub D]

Thats what I was aiming at. Obama obviously doesn't hate white people, he was raised by them.

Cesar, IIRC, you are in the same boat, ethnically speaking. I'll never understand that so many people in 21st century America just don't fuckin' get it. When the greatest golfer in history, declared himself to be "cablanasian" I cheered him. He was politely saying "fuck you" to all those who wanted to define him racially, ignoring his mother. That it upset some folks, spoke loudly and poorly about those folks, not Tiger Woods.

[J sub D]

ali, no, i lost my pinkie fingers in an accident. it involved c batteries and a wolverine. don't ask.

Tease!

[Ali]

edna-

So you're not a minimalist?

It's hard not to ask --a wolverine (as in the animal?) and batteries? Both pinkies?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Ihaveplentyofshiftkeysandpinkiesbutnospacebar!

[piperTom]

I see only one post on the inept piece supporting government regulaiton of internet access pricing, also known as "net neutrality." In case you haven't read it, I'll summarize: because the government has screwed up two services already (phone & cable), we need them to interfere in the pricing of internet services, too.

How many times, and how many flavors, of this argument have you heard: because government regulation has fucked up XXX, we need more government regulation to unfuck XXX. Did any of them get better?

The current phase of technology has pushed the market toward land lines, where there are two government "supervised" monopolies. They're abusing their position (surprise!), making customers unhappy. What do unhappy customers do?
...I mean, besides beg their congresscritters to "save" them. They create business opportunity, that's what! I'm uploading these comments through Alltel wireless; I switched to them after getting irked with my phone co. It ain't a T1 line, but it ain't bad.

More regulation only creates rent seekers, who'll then lobby for more regulation. Stop it! The market is endlessly creative; either wait for it or seize the opportunity and make a mint by fixing it.

[edna]

this is one of the reasons i'm so pro-biotech: i have the hope that new ones can eventually be grown for me, then grafted back on. those shift keys... so near and yet so far...

[alan]

It means nothing towards how I will vote in November, if I vote, but the pastor matter does intrigue me.

The first question in my mind, would you expose your two daughters to someone like Jeremiah Wright Jr.? I don't mean the rhetoric, but the hate spitting vitriol, the screaming, the public display of clownish excess and idiocy. I don't care if you are up on the pulpit, doing the Jesus number, that is still not the sort of scene I would want to be the typical Sunday afternoon of my children (if I had kids).

You can make the same points about the inequalities of American life, the corrupt nature of American elites, the negative roll our war machine plays in the world without sounding fucking insane. Those matters need sobriety and sanity and showmen trying to raise the BAHing pitch of their sheep distract from the seriousness of our present dilemma.

[Nephilium]

piperTom:

Back up there. The main point of Net Neutrality is if you say you are selling internet access, that's what you sell, not some service that blocks ports, and sends invalid packets out. It's also saying you can't double dip on service (as an example, charging Google a certain cost to make sure that your subscribers get to them).

Nephilium

[joe]

Papaya SF,

Stop arguing with the liberal in your head, and calling him "joe." Here's what I had to say:

joe | March 14, 2008, 5:16pm | #

Here's how Obama should handle the Wright issue:

"Reverend Wright is from a previous generation. The same generation as Senator Clinton. And Senator McCain. And President Bush." blah blah blah how bad politics were in Teh Sixties. "I want to move this country beyond those politics, that divide us, that set us against each other, that define our fellow Americans as the enemy."

Did you ever even bother to read anything I wrote, or did you "just know" my position without having to?

[joe]

alan,

I don't mean the rhetoric, but the hate spitting vitriol, the screaming, the public display of clownish excess and idiocy.

You have seen three or four five-second clips edited together into a "greatest hits" by people committed to making him look as outrageous as possible.

I really don't think it's fair to render a judgement about what kind of person, or even what kind of preacher, he is based on that.

I mean, seeing a pastor use the N-word from the pulpit ON CHRISTMAS! rubs me the wrong way, too, but when you're aware that someone is trying to manipulate you through the media, it's worth the effort to keep an open mind.

Besides, he's not an elected official. He's not a political leader. He's a preacher, trying to awaken people's souls to the injustice around them. He's allowed to call down fire and brimstone.

[Lefty]

This vid of Soft Machine sucked there are many more other there. Meanwhile, where the fuck is Keith Emerson?
And no it shouldn't be politics and punk. Too left wing; they own it. Politics and prog has a veneer of libertarianism in it. Punk gravitates to infantile disorders

[highnumber]

There's plenty of pro-individualist punk rock.

I'm not sure of Bad Religion's political affiliations (if any), but their lyrics tend to promote a humanism and individualism.
To my ears, at least.

[highnumber]

Insert "a blend of."

[highnumber]

Subtract "a."

[Neu Mejican]

Politics and prog has a veneer of libertarianism in it. Punk gravitates to infantile disorders

Translation: politics and prog has a veneer of libertarianims in it...and so would Punk?

😉

[alan]

Too left wing; they own it.

To me it seems the punk rockers veered left ward to please the critics, and many like the Ramones and and Sex Pistols came across as right-populist, and so did the early Clash that produced 'White Riot.' Going left wing was a sell out to music journalist.

[Neu Mejican]

Regarding Politics and Punk.

The main advantage is the fact that you can have a two-level super-meta-argument about what constitutes Real Punk crossed with what constitutes Real Libertarianism...

Alan,

Joey Ramone is pretty left-wing as were the Clash.

Don't confuse "anti-authority" with politically "right-wing."

[alan]

The Ramones were having too much fun to be lefty shills.

Here for you consideration:

Fourth rule is: Eat kosher salamis.

There, Joey is saying to keep sacred traditions set thousands of years, sounds more like Russell Kirk than anything the smellier than thou left is saying.

And, on a more serious note, as I pointed out, the music of the early Clash:

White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own

Black people gotta lot a problems
But they dont mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick

Strummer's leftism was just a cynical veneer. He knew how to pull lefty strings because they tend to be gullible and stupid. He was the Morris Dees of rock music.

[highnumber]

Naked Raygun was another punk band that seemed pro-individual. Check the lyrics from Understand.
"Never Follow"

Follow me
I'll take you there
You needn't think
You needn't care

On the way
We'll find some others
Baptize with lies
And make them brothers

No I will never follow
I will never follow
Your truth diseased and hollow
No I will never follow

Forget your thoughts
Forget your will
Tell that voice inside
To just keep still

If it gets too be too much
Just turn your eyes away
The free individual
Is from a bygone day

No I will never follow
I will never follow
Your truth diseased and hollow
No I will never follow
I'll be your destroyer
Your world's great annoyer
I'll be your destroyer
No worn propaganda for me

Follow me
I'll take you there
You needn't think
You needn't care

We'll all go gentle
Into that good night
There'll be no more raging
Against the dying of the light

No I will never follow
I will never follow
Your truth diseased and hollow
No I will never follow
I'll be your destroyer
Your world's great annoyer
I'll be your destroyer
No guns, knives, nor lawyers
No I will never follow
I will never follow
You can't take my will away
My dreams will never say die

"Too Much of You" is a good one, too.

There's a lot of punk that is mostly apolitical, but pro-individual. Compare that with prog, which is mostly just anti-you-getting-laid.

[Neu Mejican]

alan,

Wow.
That is some serious work you've put into this topic.

Joey Ramone campaigned for Jerry Brown.

Those Clash lyrics don't seem to hold any right-wing message to me...And, although I think a better case can be made for a leftward than a right-ward lean in their lyrics, they were more anti-authoritarian than anything else. Anti-Thatcherism, anti-Soviet/Maoist, anti-anyone-abusing power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash#Politics

And then there is the motivation behind that Sandinista! album...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista%21

Was it supportive or anti-Sandinista?

Your view,however, is not without precedent http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id1377/pg1/index.html

[alan]

alan,

Wow.
That is some serious work you've put into this topic.

Thanks, I try to put my best effort to the stuff that really matters like popular music and the garbled ideas musicians set to beats.

[Nick]

Uh.. you know that Robert Wyatt, the drummer of Soft Machine, is a Communist Party member. I don't know the rest of the band, although I know that the bassist is also in the Radical Left music scene. I still like Robert Wyatt and Soft Machine, but just a point...