Checking in With Swedish Hookers

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Bound not Gagged has the best coverage of Spitzer, and Emily Bazelon has a very good rundown of different policy approaches to prostitution at Slate:

[L]ately there's another favorite model. In 1999, Sweden made it legal to sell sex but illegal to buy it—only the johns and the traffickers can be prosecuted. This is the only approach to prostitution that's based on "sex equality," argues University of Michigan law professor Catharine MacKinnon. It treats prostitution as a social evil but views the women who do it as the victims of sexual exploitation who "should not be victimized again by the state by being made into criminals," as MacKinnon put it to me in an e-mail. It's the men who use the women, she continued, who are "sexual predators" and should be punished as such.

According to this Web site for the Women's Justice Center, Sweden's way of doing things is a big success. "In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%." Trafficking is reportedly down to 200 to 400 girls and women a year, compared with 15,000 to 17,000 in nearby Finland. Max Waltman, a doctoral candidate in Stockholm who is studying the country's prostitution laws, says that those stats hold up. He also said the police are actually going after the johns as ordered: In 2006, more than 150 were convicted and fined. (That might not sound like many, but then Sweden has a population of only 9 million.)

For feminists like MacKinnon (with whom Waltman works), this sure looks like the solution: Go after the men! Take down Eliot Spitzer and leave the call girls alone! On the other hand, the group SANS, for Sex Workers and Allies Network in Sweden, doesn't like the 1999 law. The network says it has brought more dangerous clients and more unsafe sex, rather than the other way around.

Of all approaches to sex work, demand-side enforcement is surely the most incoherent (if just as surely the most morally satisfying). MacKinnon doesn't want to "punish" the victims; she just wants to criminalize the source of their income and let them deal with the fallout. This mirrors the "employer sanctions" approach to immigration enforcement, which polls very well among self-described liberals presumably concerned with the abuse of undocumented workers. But no one has yet managed to explain just how immigrants benefit when employers fear to hire them. In both cases, the remaining options seem likely to be less appealing: more sketchy johns, more dangerous jobs with lower wages. A blogger who claims to be a Swedish sex worker writes:

The buyers are 'worse' and more dangerous, and the women who cannot stop or move their business are dependent on these more dangerous men, since they cannot afford to turn them down as before.

More here.

NEXT: Dick Cheney Wins World Fantasy Award

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  1. Why pay money to have sex with a woman when you can just take her out to dinner, buy her drinks, jewelry, maybe a car, and…uh, wait…

  2. In both illegal immigration and prostitution (and other things, such as illegal drugs), the goal is to cause it to stop. One could arrest the buyer, or the seller, or both-doesn’t really matter, frankly. Of course, none of the above actually causes the problem to go away, it just puts lots of people in jail.

  3. For demand side enforcement to be morally satisfying, you have to buy first the argument that the prostitutes are being “exploited”. Its really no different than any other kind of work so if you think prostitution is exploitation, you’re basically a Marxist who thinks any kind of employer-employee relationship is “exploitive”.

  4. Predator? I just met her!

    (rimshot)

    Why is it that people can spend so much energy and time thinking up alternate ways to punish consensual transactions yet cannot ever seem to reach the conclusion that maybe the best solution is not punishing them at all?

  5. Epi-

    A lot of feminists on one end of the political spectrum and Christian fundamentalist busy-bodies on the other think that if you have to pay for sex, then its being “Coerced”. No, I’m not making this up.

  6. Cesar,

    More religions than just Christians are full of busybodies on this topic. Although Feminists don’t tend to call their faith a religion, it sure does resemble one in practice.

  7. So, is Ms. MacKinnon saying that women are not capable of looking after themselves, and need the protection and guidance of men in uniform?

  8. What if you propose to a girl and you bought her a fat rock?

  9. What if you propose to a girl and you bought her a fat rock?

    I guess it is okay as long as it does not leave too bad of a bruise.

  10. More religions than just Christians are full of busybodies on this topic. Although Feminists don’t tend to call their faith a religion, it sure does resemble one in practice.

    Fair enough, any fundamentalist religion seems to have a problem with it. And yeah, feminism can resemble a religion. I just find it odd when they end up on the same side.

  11. What if you propose to a girl and you bought her a fat rock?

    You buy the girl you want to marry crack cocaine? I like your style.

  12. “This is the only approach to prostitution that’s based on “sex equality,” ”

    Yes of course! Why didn’t I think of it? Punishing only men is clearly the only approach based on ‘sex equality’. Duh.

  13. Nice. Watch for the same philosophy applied to tobacco: make cigarettes legal but smoking them illegal. Oh, wait…Never mind.

  14. Its like making abortion illegal, but only punishing the doctors that preform them.

  15. “This is the only approach to prostitution that’s based on “sex equality,”

    Teehee. Sorry guys, but when I read this I can’t help but smile…

  16. RC.

    You have to remember that McKinnon looks at all hetero sex, no matter how consensual it looks as rape. I am not kidding. To her all sex in marriage is rape. A sympathy lay is rape. Buyers remorse on the part of a woman after a drunken night of passion is rape. In her warped mind, all prositution is rape and not metaphorically but actual rape on the same moral level as a stranger jumping out of the bushes and raping an old lady.

    McKinnon was raised in a very strict religous household and her pshyche and thinking on anything related to sex was irrepearably damaged. She is a first class wingnut and the last person anyone should ever talk to about sex law and policy. Only a leftist nitwit like Bazelon would do it.

  17. In both illegal immigration and prostitution (and other things, such as illegal drugs), the goal is to cause it to stop. One could arrest the buyer, or the seller, or both-doesn’t really matter, frankly. Of course, none of the above actually causes the problem to go away, it just puts lots of people in jail.

    Yes, but it is the right thing to do, for moral reasons.

    Why is it that people can spend so much energy and time thinking up alternate ways to punish consensual transactions yet cannot ever seem to reach the conclusion that maybe the best solution is not punishing them at all?

    Because immoral acts need to be prohibited.

    Yes of course! Why didn’t I think of it? Punishing only men is clearly the only approach based on ‘sex equality’. Duh.

    Yes, because prostitution is degrading to all women.

  18. In other words, I respect every woman’s right to place a price on how much she’s willing to sell her body for. What I don’t respect is a system which means that a woman can only make a living wage if she is a sex worker.

    Remember this, girls. Women can only make a living being a whore. No other avenues of work exist.

    I’m going to follow that lying whore of a wife of mine over to her pimp’s house tonight and murder up both of them just right.

  19. Buyers remorse on the part of a woman after a drunken night of passion is rape.

    And it isn’t? Even if she consents, if she changes her mind later, it becomes rape.

  20. “Yes, because prostitution is degrading to all women.”

    Then why don’t you take that up with the women who do it? Further, why don’t you take it up with trophy wives who marry rich old men for the cash? People, men and women degrade themselves in any number of ways every day. What is so special about prostitution?

    I will stop feeding the troll now.

  21. Since Jenna has a computer and an internet connection, a luxury in our society, then she must make a living wage. Therefore, Jenna, is a prostitute.

  22. SugarFree, bring us more Feiministing and Pandagon!

  23. Jesus Jenne, you really are a troll and you are not even a funny one.

  24. “Since Jenna has a computer and an internet connection, a luxury in our society, then she must make a living wage. Therefore, Jenna, is a prostitute.”

    That would explain why she feels so degraded by prositution.

  25. For those wondering, here’s a handy table:

    50-69: “moron”
    30-49: “imbecile”
    20-29: “Kerry Howley”
    0-19: “idiot”

    But no one has yet managed to explain just how immigrants benefit when employers fear to hire them.

    First, we aren’t discussing “immigrants”, but IllegalAliens.

    Second, very many people have discussed how massive IllegalImmigration has a negative impact on the sending countries. For instance, the CSM did a report on devastated MexicanVillages, many on the left have complained about BorderDeaths, and so forth. Proper enforcement would keep the MexicanGovernment from using the U.S. as a SafetyValve for their failed policies (sound familiar? I’m sure LouDobbs has said something similar many times.)

  26. I happenned to be discussing the case with my wife and mother yesterday.

    It was quite fascinating; neither one seemed to understand that at the high end, prostitution is a profession that is freely entered into, and that much of the problems are caused by prohibition. Both were absolutely convinced that any woman who chooses to be a courtesan must do so at gunpoint.

    They were also both horrified when I described the way the pictures were presented on the website. Not knowing about the smoking gun screen captures, they assumed I had visited the emperor club website, which I did indeed try to do, but it was down when I tried. My mother was aghast. “Aren’t you scared that people will find out that you visited a prostitute’s website?” she asked.

    Fortunately I was able to suppress the reflex to fire back a smart-alecky comeback that would have had me banished to sleep in the garage.

  27. And it isn’t? Even if she consents, if she changes her mind later, it becomes rape.

    Sorry, but are you supporting this idea? Would you then agree that the guy could accuse the woman of rape in this situation as well, as they were likely both drunk?

  28. Cesar,

    I know it’s like being in a fist fight with a baby, but I just can’t stop.

    By the way, is Lonewacko a perfect illustration of The Tragedy of the Commons?

  29. Remember this, girls. Women can only make a living being a whore. No other avenues of work exist.

    So she’s saying all women are whores? Sounds right to me.

    (ducks)

  30. are porn stars being exploited????

  31. Lonewacko, that wasn’t the question.

    I have no interest in the macro question of whether villages in Mexico are depopulated [Who gives a shit? We depopulated the rural areas of the US in the 19th century too] or anything of the sort. The question on the table is the micro question of whether the individual illegal alien [not IllegalAlien or whatever compound assholery you insist on writing] who is denied employment is helped by that or harmed by it.

  32. By the way, is Lonewacko a perfect illustration of The Tragedy of the Commons?

    No, Lonewacko is a demonstration that even the stupidest of people can still get on the Internet. And that’s a good thing.

  33. SugarFree, bring us some comments from Pandagon. I’d wade into the sewers but you’re a braver man than I. Find us something good!

  34. . This is the only approach to prostitution that’s based on “sex equality,” argues University of Michigan law professor Catharine MacKinnon. It treats prostitution as a social evil but views the women who do it as the victims of sexual exploitation who “should not be victimized again by the state by being made into criminals,”

    Why is McKinnon considered a feminist when she clearly doesn’t believe that women and men are equal? If anything, she has warped the meaning of feminism to mean its historical opposite and now she seeks the paternal protection of the state.

    Yes of course! Why didn’t I think of it? Punishing only men is clearly the only approach based on ‘sex equality’. Duh.

    Yes, because prostitution is degrading to all women.

    Wrong. You can not speak for all women. Just because my neighbor is henpecked and his wife has his nuts in a vice does not degrade me or my brethren in any fashion at all. That is something he suffers all by his lonesome (and I add to by snickering at his ass).

    Because immoral acts need to be prohibited.

    Imprisoning people for vices where there is no violence or coercion involved is a far greater immorality.

    Yes, but it is the right thing to do, for moral reasons.

    To circuitous to deserve a response.

  35. Lonewacko is perfect illustration of the law of the internet (I forget its official name).

    Basically, normal guy+anonymity+audience=fucktard.

  36. Episiarch,

    If I recall the whole argument correctly, as in how this odd pathology has been evolved in women’s studies classes but maybe not in this particular thread, all women are victims of men turning them into sex objects. They are not “whores” by choice, men force them to be.

    For some reason, the term “mini rape” comes to mind, I think it was used in some of this woman-as-victim theory. If a man told a woman she had nice legs, that was considered a “mini-rape”.

    Has been a while since I was exposed to the details, but that is the general idea from what I can remember.

    No, I do not subscribe to the above theory.

  37. Oh, this one is a gem.

    When looking at the question of male prostitution, I think one is failing to consider the dynamics of the marketplace. In our society, opportunities for men are greater than for women, and men have more money, on the average than women. That leads to a larger supply of women willing to prostitute themselves, and more money chasing those prostitutes. Lonely women do not have the same financial resources, and because the supply of willing men is smaller, that alone explains why there are fewer male prostitutes than female prostitutes.

    No, dipshit, maybe its because gay people are about 1-2% of the population (generous estimate) and therefore theres a lower demand for male prostitutes.

  38. “Proper enforcement would keep the MexicanGovernment from using the U.S. as a SafetyValve for their failed policies (sound familiar? I’m sure LouDobbs has said something similar many times.)”

    Lou Dobbs? I thought you meant Lou Rawls: “You’ll never find, another immigration policy like mine.”

    … Sorry, I’m still giggling from “This is the only approach to prostitution that’s based on “sex equality,”

  39. [period],

    Would you then agree that the guy could accuse the woman of rape in this situation as well, as they were likely both drunk?

    You are forgetting a key principle of rape-hysterics, to wit:

    No woman can be too sober so as to imply consent and no man can be too drunk to infer it.

    It’s a modern twist on the “one-drop” rule. One drop of alcohol renders a woman incapable of meaningful consent, but an ocean of alcohol can never turn a sexual faux pas into an honest mistake on the part of a man. There can never be a good-faith argument for any encounter a woman deems rape.

    The idea of rape sickens me, but the idea that all men are rapists that just haven’t been caught yet sickens me more.

  40. “No, dipshit, maybe its because gay people are about 1-2% of the population (generous estimate) and therefore theres a lower demand for male prostitutes.”

    That and the fact that women are almost never willing to pay for sex.

  41. javier | March 11, 2008, 3:28pm | #
    are porn stars being exploited????

    I know plenty of strippers from the few years I worked at a tat parlor. They tend to be far more individualistic, and aware of the world around them than
    their sisters in academia.

    Think of the poor McKinnon’s of this world. If they don’t produce mind warped leftist, victimization product they are out on their asses and forced to work in world that is outside of their comfort zone. The poor, exploited darlings.

  42. No, dipshit, maybe its because gay people are about 1-2% of the population (generous estimate) and therefore theres a lower demand for male prostitutes.

    You patriarchal asshole! Gay men aren’t the only customers of male prostitutes! But women are repressed by the patriarchy into thinking they don’t want to hire unknown men to fuck them, so the lesser number of male prostitutes is evidence of this!

  43. SugarFree,

    The Montag Addendum to that: there is not enough real rape of women out there to make every male a predator and every woman a victim, so the definition must be expanded.

  44. Cesar,

    Pandagon has its moments, but it never has the concentrated bat-shit crazy of Feministing. Every comment thread has at least one truly, deeply retarded notion.

  45. Epi: The problem is that the market value for males is pretty low. For instance, I will give my services to any woman for free provided she is good looking and has beer.

  46. Episiarch knows way too much about gay prostitution for my comfort.

  47. “I know plenty of strippers from the few years I worked at a tat parlor. They tend to be far more individualistic, and aware of the world around them than their sisters in academia.”

    I have always found stripers to be fairly self aware and philosophical about their work. A lot more self aware than lunatics like McKinnon. Sadly, I think McKinnon at some deep level raves about all of this stuff because she knows she will never be good looking to be a stripper or an object of anyone’s desire. There are some strange things going on in the heads of radical feminists.

  48. terran,

    Fortunately I was able to suppress the reflex to fire back a smart-alecky comeback that would have had me banished to sleep in the garage.

    Thus the need for a welding rig in the garage, to make those nights an adventure.

  49. A big LOL at 3:37, Epi.

  50. Whoa, Nellie, the Fredster’s not gay. He only services needy housewives and widows.

  51. “Gay men aren’t the only customers of male prostitutes!”

    I am not following. If women are not paying for it, who is if not gay men or at least bi men? I am sorry if you are a seeing a male prostitute you have some sexuality issues.

  52. SugarFree,

    Episiarch knows way too much about gay prostitution for my comfort.

    Maybe he knows someone who can make the experience comfortable for you? 🙂

  53. Pandagon just suggested today, Epi, that those who advocate legalization of prostitution do it not because they care for the health of the workers, but because like true Patriarchs they only care about the health of the Johns.

    Shorter Pandagon: We don’t care if the Johns get AIDS.

  54. Episiarch knows way too much about gay prostitution for my comfort.

    I prefer the term “funboy”.

  55. Epi: The problem is that the market value for males is pretty low. For instance, I will give my services to any woman for free provided she is good looking and has beer.

    Ultimately any attempt to be a street walker on our part will be met by our ancient enemy — blue balls. I mean, on the street at any minute a woman comes up in her car and says, ‘come on, I don’t have all freakin’ night.’
    So you gotta keep the boy ready to do his business, but on a slow night, that can get awfully painful.

    Clearly I have too much free time today to think about this.

  56. John,

    The heterosexual male prostitute provides a service, with discretion and with professional zeal. Why should a woman humiliate herself in a strange bar or with a male friend when for a reasonable fee she can partake of the anonymity, certified cleanliness, and skill of. . .

    Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute.

  57. Also Alan, you would roll over and go to sleep after you had your first customer of the night. Kind of hard for men to do the kind of volume that your typical street walker does.

  58. Pandagon just suggested today, Epi, that those who advocate legalization of prostitution do it not because they care for the health of the workers, but because like true Patriarchs they only care about the health of the Johns.

    The perils of tribal thinking. You’d think their theory would be that all those who want it legalized want to be able to get their nookie without fear of arrest, but they actually manage to jump right over that all the way to “protect the Johns from AIDS”.

  59. “On the other hand, the group SANS, for Sex Workers and Allies Network in Sweden, doesn’t like the 1999 law. The network says it has brought more dangerous clients and more unsafe sex, rather than the other way around.”

    I can understand how this Law makes “nice” johns, who dont beat up on whores, shy away but how does it bring about MORE dangerous clients and MORE unsafe sex?

  60. I am not following. If women are not paying for it, who is if not gay men or at least bi men? I am sorry if you are a seeing a male prostitute you have some sexuality issues.

    John, please tell me you are being a super-smartass, because I would hate to think you thought I was serious.

  61. For some reason, the term “mini rape” comes to mind, I think it was used in some of this woman-as-victim theory. If a man told a woman she had nice legs, that was considered a “mini-rape”.

    You can see this principle extended in sexual harassment law, where looking at a woman can be considered harassment.

    I think this point of view arose because feminism was originally a movement of upper-class women. These women subconsciously longed for the archaic social arrangements of feudalism, where lower-class males were not allowed to even look directly at women from classes above them, but had to remove their hats and bow their heads. They re-encoded this impulse to prevent violations of class privilege into rhetoric about sexual violation by “the male eye”.

    It’s also intimately connected to archaic race relations as well. The woman who complains that a man is looking at her at work in the 21st century in the 19th century would have set a lynch mob on a black boy who looked at her. “Harassment” in this context really means “refusal to show proper deference and submission”.

  62. rana, the men are talking here. Go get us some beers.

  63. Bingo:

    The beer is optional, right?

  64. LMFAO

  65. Also Alan, you would roll over and go to sleep after you had your first customer of the night. Kind of hard for men to do the kind of volume that your typical street walker does.

    Sorry, John. It is different for Latins like me. I would be embarrassed to explain this one in detail (not size, stamina).

  66. I don’t even think this is really about the sex for all men. For a lot of them, I think, its some sick thrill they get from doing something that is illegal and/or that could ruin their relationship with their signifigant other.

  67. rana, the men are talking here. Go get us some beers.

    Which reminds me: How many men does it take to open a beer?

    Obvious answer: None. She should open it for him before she brings it to him.

  68. I don’t even think this is really about the sex for all men. For a lot of them, I think, its some sick thrill they get from doing something that is illegal and/or that could ruin their relationship with their signifigant other.

    No one hated Spitzer more than Spitzer. I can see that. At some level he must know he wasted his entire life in socially destructive pursuits of self glorification.

  69. Sorry to interrupt the dick wagging fest, Epi. Now will that be light or dark ale?

  70. Ok, Sugar Free I took your advice and read some comments at Femministing. They are actually suggesting wanting to legalize prostitution is racist. WTF?

  71. Danny: Shit, you’re right! So much for being a high-class hooker 🙁

  72. I can understand how this Law makes “nice” johns, who dont beat up on whores, shy away but how does it bring about MORE dangerous clients and MORE unsafe sex?

    something about punishment vs. reward. Before the law, prostitutes could “punish” bad johns by blacklisting them, as the supply of good johns was sufficient. As the good johns diminished, bad johns had more accesibility and they could get more for the money so to disgustingly speak and that “rewarded” bad johns and more bad johns realized what they could get away with and increased the pool. Not a good situation for the prostitutes.

  73. or that could ruin their relationship with their signifigant other.

    Doesn’t drag racing and football do that, but over a much longer time?

  74. Now will that be light or dark ale?

    Surprise me.

  75. Get a load of this from that site:

    http://whyihatefunfaq.blogspot.com/

    in order to keep people from feeling the need to come out of the closet, leave their wives with the full realization that abstinence education had caused them to marry the wrong person at the wrong time, and so on.

    My dick must have flunked obedience school.

  76. Bingo,

    At $5,000 an hour you don’t need a lot of volume. There is still hope man!

  77. I know this is shooting fish in a barrell, but this takes the cake.

    Is this a warning shot across the bow of the Democratic Party by the republicans?

    Showing how low and deep they are willing to further pervert the laws of this country to get their puppet installed as president. (As if Hillary’s recent performance has made things harder for them)

    This whole thing stinks to high heaven but you just have to wonder, and just like 9/11/2001, there are so many coincidences and ‘strange actions’ for it just to be a spur of the moment incident.

    They have been planning to take Spitzer down for years.

    To watch MSNBC’s Wall Street siren talking to some ‘Wall Street people’ you could see their glee and gloating in this nasty prosecution. Many people, many cruel, nasty, evil, rich and politically connected people are very ecstatically happy over this ‘convenient’ prosecution? And the message seems clear. Since Cheney now has full access to the ‘Justice’ Dept inner workings, I wonder if his fingerprints aren’t all over this thing.

    Once again, Lady Liberty is prostituted for the pleasure of the GOP.

  78. Cesar, you have to understand that to these people, prostitution is “prostitution exploits women” combined with (which they will never admit) “my man might want to go to a prostitute because he finds her more attractive than me, and unlike some girl in a bar he will definitely get to fuck her because he can pay”.

  79. Epi, it is really amazing how the same word can mean two different things to different people.

    To me, exploitation is when you don’t have a choice in the matter. See: rape, theft, and taxes.

    If you can say “no” and not be shot or put in jail, its not exploitation. Period.

  80. Cesar, to be fair, they are the type that will find racism in everything.

  81. As the good johns diminished, bad johns had more accesibility and they could get more for the money so to disgustingly speak and that “rewarded” bad johns and more bad johns realized what they could get away with and increased the pool. Not a good situation for the prostitutes.

    LIT,
    Sure but it still doesn’t explain how there are more bad johns. How did the “bad john pool” increase? Where did these new, unaccounted for, johns come from? weren’t they soliciting prostitutes before this law passed? or did they simply decide now was a better time to start beating up on hos?
    This makes little sense to me.

  82. Cesar,

    Agreed. Just like torture vs. discomfort. If all the parts stay on, it is discomfort!

  83. Cesar,

    How pathetic. This country’s politics would improve 100% if we’d repudiate bad actors (whatever party that happen to inhabit) and stop “spinning” everything into a ridiculous conspiracy.

  84. Ah, crap posted too soon…

    Remember… finding Asian women attractive is racist.

  85. Don’t forget hispanic women too Sugar Free.

  86. rana,

    I suggest the key is in bad phrasing. Guessing the person means a higher ratio of bad vs. good, not a measured absoulte increase over time.

  87. Surprise me.

    I think that’s what Eliot said to the Madam too.

  88. Cesar, how ever could I…

  89. Sure but it still doesn’t explain how there are more bad johns. How did the “bad john pool” increase?

    The theory would be that the “bad john” pool did not increase, but by decreasing the “good john” numbers, the bad johns are now a majority of the overall john pool.

    This would, theoretically, increase the chances of sex workers encountering bad johns.

  90. Epi,
    I will make a “special” ale for you.

  91. rana:

    There’s aren’t more bad johns numerically, its that the number of good johns went down and the number of bad johns stayed mostly the same. The ratio of good to bad is what went down.

  92. Pro, not only is it partisan exremism in its finest and paranoid to boot, it flies in the face of the facts.

    Of the four major pols that have gotten in legal trouble in the last year or so, we have:

    Larry “Wide Stance” Craig (R)

    David Vitter (R)

    William “Dollar Bill” Jefferson (D)

    Elliot Spitzer (D)

    Seems pretty bi-partisan to me. Law enforcement in this country has a lot of faults but targeting only one political party isn’t one of them.

  93. Epi,
    I will make a “special” ale for you.

    …BTW, I didn’t know you were into golden showers.

  94. Or what epi said

    Epi has got to be a male prostitute, there is no denying his expertise on the subject matter.

  95. Wasn’t finding European women attractive also bad?

    I think the rule of thumb is that if you don’t find the fatasses and dogs who post at Feministing attractive, you are a racist/pervert/patriarch. Shit, you might even be as bad as SugarFree.

  96. Epi, not only that, but since they are supposedly so against racism you think they would find miscegenation a good thing.

  97. rana, as long as it’s golden and warm!

    YAY WATERSPORTS

  98. another Pandagon fucktwit:

    Guys get their self esteem from fucking attractive women or having power over women. Fucking women they think are unattractive? Fucking women who have economic power over them? They’d be regarded as totally emasculated.

    Just to explain it to the girls, we , meaning guys don’t make the judgment of whom is acceptable to fuck, he (pointing downward) does.

  99. Makinnon is fortunate tenure exists.

  100. I heard a rumor that Barney Frank has sex with men. Why isn’t this a scandal?

  101. Fucking women who have economic power over them?

    What bullshit. There are a lot of examples of guys who marry “up” to women who have more economic power over them. See: John Kerry

    Hell, see: George Washington.

  102. I think the rule of thumb is that if you don’t find the fatasses and dogs who post at Feministing attractive, you are a racist/pervert/patriarch. Shit, you might even be as bad as SugarFree.

    Ooops! Almost missed the “don’t” there.

    Yes, the only way to be ‘enlightened’ and ‘open minded’ is to let the woman choose you, but only of she looks like a womyn’s studies retiree.

  103. …BTW, I didn’t know you were into golden showers.

    Wha? There are some guys not into GS? What a bunch of weirdos.

  104. Hell, if some billionaire heiress wanted to marry me I’d take her even if she was only average. Its a plus, for God’s sake, not some threat to my “patriarchy”.

  105. alan: yeah a guy totally wouldn’t want to date a rich chick, lol

  106. What is really funny about this whole money/power/men thing is that 51% of the population owns over 60% of the wealth!

    The 49%/40% is men.

  107. i like ripping on feministing and all, but you guys come across as really, really bitter.

    why?

  108. I married up. WAY up. Pretty, thin, and rich (both family money and a great job.) I look like a guy who comments on the Internet all day. I make half of what she does and she couldn’t care less. I do all the cooking, she mows the lawn.

    I win.

  109. Hell, if some billionaire heiress wanted to marry me I’d take her even if she was only average. Its a plus, for God’s sake, not some threat to my “patriarchy”.

    Dude, I’d take one of the Feministing whiners if she was that rich. Then I could do coke and cheat on her with hot Asian hookers using her own money and prove to her, once and for all, that all men are as evil as she believed.

    That would be fucking great.

  110. Dhex, I just dislike stupid partisan extremists. I don’t think we should rip on their physical looks, btw.

  111. SugarFree,

    If you say she can weld then I am going to cry.

  112. Men are mostly pro-choice. They choose to fuck Thin pretty women. Same reason they drive something besides a yugo. Because they can.

    No means no. Even when used in the sentence, ” No I don’t do fat nasty broads.”

  113. It’s all biology anyway, preservation of the species and all. The reason guys forget their name when some hot little honey bends over at the beach is because we’re supposed to.

    It isn’t a whole lot different than hunger pangs. 🙂

    Most of us can control it and we don’t get too fat…..

    Then there’s assholes like Spitzer who can’t control it and are fat that go around putting fat guys in jail.

  114. i like ripping on feministing and all

    Then join in, buzzkill.

  115. No I don’t do fat nasty broads

    As they say, you can drink an ugly girl pretty, but you can’t drink a fat girl thin.

  116. Dhex, I just dislike stupid partisan extremists.

    no, i’m with you on ripping on stupid partisanship. the folks trying to turn this into AN EVIL REPUBLICAN PLOT (like cheney slipped spitzer a few grand and told him to have a good time) are totally insane.

    but it’s very marginal. feministing – and the attitudes espoused therein – don’t really touch a lot of lives. there’s really very little to be bitter about.

  117. Bingo | March 11, 2008, 4:20pm | #
    alan: yeah a guy totally wouldn’t want to date a rich chick, lol

    It is no easier getting it up for a fugly rich chick than it is for a fugly poor chick.

  118. Then join in, buzzkill.

    dude, it’s a self-ripping oven!

  119. Dhex–

    Neither do libertarians, but both sites always rip on Evil White Heterosexual Libertarians who exploit minority/women wage slaves. Or some such crap.

  120. Hell, if some billionaire heiress wanted to marry me I’d take her

    I’d never, ever marry for money. But I sure as hell wouldn’t let it stand in the way of L-O-V-E!

    Unfortunately, I did not have Sugar’s foresight and I married a sweet young thing whose total assets could fit into the suitcase she brought with her when she moved in. 🙂

    No regrets, though.

  121. dhex,

    I’m not bitter. They want to define being male as a pathology. I reject that, primarily through cruel humor.

    Guy,

    She has no welding experience, by my wife is one of those people who can literally do anything she sets her mind to. Her limitless potential is bound only by her relative lack of ambition.

    And, she could beat up all the Feministing wimmim with ease, even the bullish of dykes.

    (Yes, I’m that guy who really, really likes his wife.)

  122. TWC, I wouldn’t do it just for money. But the feminists on those sites are suggesting that men would not marry a rich woman because they would fear she would have “economic power” over them and men, the pigs that they are, just couldn’t handle that.

  123. but it’s very marginal. feministing – and the attitudes espoused therein – don’t really touch a lot of lives. there’s really very little to be bitter about.

    Who is bitter? Just because Cesar got dumped by a Pandagon regular doesn’t necessarily mean he’s bitter.

  124. TWC,

    I’d trade a rich mean wife for a poor sweet one any day. I was really just lucky. Sounds like you were too.

  125. i like ripping on feministing and all, but you guys come across as really, really bitter.

    why?

    Whaaat?!? This is the most cheerful thread we have had in months.

  126. Who is bitter? Just because Cesar got dumped by a Pandagon regular doesn’t necessarily mean he’s bitter.

    LOL. I’ll have you know I got dumped by a Kos reader!

    (kidding)

  127. …you can’t drink a fat girl thin.

    Apparently you can. The key is what you drink. NSFW or kids

  128. Ah, Fosters. Australia’s biggest in-joke.

  129. OTOH, The mrs. and I went to a new years eve party with about 15 or 20 in attendance including 4 single guys. A young lady about 22-25 years old shows up. She is tall, blonde, very nice lookin, thin with a great rack. She announced after about 2 drinks she was there to get drunk and laid. She was, personality wise, a troll in the flesh and she went home dogass drunk and alone.
    It ain’t always about the looks and the cat. Truth be known, I think personality does go a long way.

  130. Kangaroo piss, blech.

  131. Whaaat?!? This is the most cheerful thread we have had in months.

    Nothing brings us together like Feministing. It’s all about our love of their hate.

  132. “It’s the men who use the women, she continued, who are “sexual predators” and should be punished as such.”

    If I pay $1,500 for sex, then the prostitute is using me — to raise capital.

  133. I’ll say one good thing about Pandagon, they write some good stuff about the drug war. Though at the same time, they pretend like the drug war only effects women and minorities and white guys never EVER get caught or have their door beaten down in the middle of the night in a mistaken raid.

  134. Sugar, yep, seems like the both of us are lucky guys.

    I always figured Mrs TWC’d be out the door by the time she was 25. Now were looking at 25 years together. [shrugs]

    I think we’re doing a big shindig for the 25th, which is in May 2010, yer all invited.

  135. She was, personality wise, a troll in the flesh and she went home dogass drunk and alone.

    No, she walked out alone. One or more of the hornier and smarter guys would have gotten her number and called her shortly.

    See, he then doesn’t have to be seen walking out with such a shithead but can still go over her place and pound her drunk ass.

  136. California Aptitude Test

    Foster’s is to Australia as ____________ is to Canada.

    I’m going to go with Moosehead.

    Moosehead. You can really taste the moose.

  137. I cannot see the name of the site Feministing.

    On the way to my brain from my eyeballs it always morphs into

    F-I-S-T-I-I-N-G

  138. TWC, pencil me and the wife in.
    put me down for a case of Annie Green Springs,
    Cherry Orchard wine. Mrs. brotherben prefers Arbor Mist, mixed berry.

    yup, we are frugal winos

  139. Sugarfree:

    No, that would be Labatt.

  140. To be the Fosters of Canada, it would actually have to be something nobody actually drinks in Canada.

  141. Check out post .49

    http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/11/6882/#comment-498432

    She bases her belief on the legality of prostitution on defining an abstracted concept she pulls from her (well you know where I am going with that!), ‘mutuality’, and her definition is based upon ephemeral matters like the concept of friendship. You want to send people to jail because you find a few nuances in an argument that doesn’t really pertain to the reason why someone should or should not be locked up? I get non libertarian mind sets less and less each day.

  142. We need more open threads to goof off in. Site traffics all the same anyway.

    Molson’s Golden is pretty good, but most of the rest of the line is awful. My beer sense is a bit skewed though, because I really hate excessively hopped beers. I taste bitterness much stronger than other people, apparently.

    By the way, God of War: Chains of Olympus for the PSP is awesome.

    Anyway, I’ve got to go. A certain young employee is going to get schooled at racquetball this afternoon.

  143. pencil me and the wife in

    Frugal BB: Done

  144. “As they say, you can drink an ugly girl pretty, but you can’t drink a fat girl thin.”

    You can always turn out the lights.

  145. “You can always turn out the lights.”

    Not a good idea. You need to roll them in flour and look for the wet spot.

  146. Im not well informed of the situation of prostitutes in the US, but i think the climate is fairly different than from that in sweden. Many support this law in sweden on moral grounds, but the bill itself was introduced primarily to combat trafficing and not just prostitution.
    “Trafficing” involves criminal organisations that transport illegal aliens from poor countries into wealthier nations where the victims are forced into manual or sexual labor.
    They don’t work by free will and any profits they make go to the criminals who force them into slavery.
    I suspect the majority of american prostetutes are not shipped in containers, which is why a law like this would make little sence in the US.

  147. Cesar | March 11, 2008, 4:44pm | #
    To be the Fosters of Canada, it would actually have to be something nobody actually drinks in Canada.

    No such thing!

  148. The Wine Commonsewer | March 11, 2008, 4:58pm | #
    pencil me and the wife in

    Frugal BB: Done

    Two more for the pencil! Y’all live in CA am I right?

    And I’ve just taken up wine drinking (for my health ya know) so I’m gonna be haunting yer site a bit.

  149. “Not a good idea. You need to roll them in flour and look for the wet spot.”

    I’m confused, do you want to fuck them, or eat them?

    I’m not judging. Either choice is valid.

  150. Fat Chick Rick,
    The preferred method hereabouts is to slap em on the thigh and catch a wave in.

    That’s what I hear anyway.

  151. Also, is this thread another instance where someone claims that a popular import in the U.S. (and other places) is routinely mocked in its homeland?

    I have found most of those claims to be false. They usually stem from a small group of self-proclaimed connoisseurs.

    Australians love Stella Artois (as do many countries) yet it is said to be mocked as swill in its homeland.

    Oh, the irony of beer snobs.

  152. Does this work with gambling or drugs too?

    Should it be legal to own a casino, but illegal to place a bet? Or perhaps the other way around?

    What about drugs? Is the user the victim?

  153. For The Sake of Reason-

    Fosters is not a big seller in Australia. See here.

    While popular in many countries, particularly where it is brewed locally, Foster’s Lager does not enjoy widespread popularity in Australia. As a bottled beer produced by the Foster’s Group (formerly the Carlton United Beverages group (CUB)) it is rarely promoted in Australia.

    The way they promote it here though you’d think it was Australia’s Budweiser.

  154. STELLA!

    I like K?nig Ludwig Weissbier, myself. It’s swill in its home country.

  155. Why I Hate Fun
    For the Sexyfun Feminist Who Earnestly Believes That Sex Work is Empowering and Awesome for Women (And Anybody Dumb Enough To Believe Her)

    I skimmed through her blog and lost 25 IQ points in the process; if I actually read the whole thing I’d be reduced to Lonewacko status. That woman is completely batshit insane.

  156. No, I recognized the specific marketing of Fosters before posting, which is why I said “most,” but noted the irony of the popularity of Stella Artois in Australia.

    In other words, every beer snob is a victim of their own elitism at some point. It was meant to be a cautionary tale.

    Beer, and wine tasters fit into the same category, as art, music, and audiophile snobs. They are absolutely convinced that their subjective interpretations are an objective fact.

    Many even try to make the subject academic, thereby attempting to establish what should not be acceptable to others.

  157. FTSR-

    Agreed, I enjoy microbrews a lot but hate people who won’t admit that nothing beats Miller High Life out of the bottle on a hot day. Theres even a time for Malt Liquor.

  158. Personnally, I like Fosters in the oilcans.
    My favorite is Spaten in the medium dark.

  159. ahhhh, who am I kiddin. I like beer with alcohol in it. no warmer than room temperature but not frozen.

    (i am brotherben and I approved this spoof)

  160. Yeah, many people don’t seem to realize that alcohol, like most other things, is about acquiring a taste. This can be accomplished through culture, or it may be the only thing available to you at the time.

    I enjoy whiskey, and have tried numerous brands, but for a while, I actually developed a taste for the cheapest, rat gut whiskey available. I then tried high end whiskies and found them unenjoyable, until, of course, they were the only thing left in the cabinet. Suddenly, switching to any other brand became yet another breaking in period. The cycle continued.

    I’m digressing us into oblivion, but I have found Czech beers to have some of the most unique flavors so far for my palate. They’re certainly an acquired taste, but eventually enjoyable.

    You see the same kind of unrbidled arrogance when people are recommending a restaurant.

  161. “ahhhh, who am I kiddin. I like beer with alcohol in it. no warmer than room temperature but not frozen.”

    You sound like a sensible man.

  162. Basically, normal guy+anonymity+audience=fucktard.

    Hey! I resemble that remark!

    The problem is that the market value for males is pretty low. For instance, I will give my services to any woman for free provided she is good looking and has beer.

    Hell, I’ll bring my own damn beer.

    Fucking women who have economic power over them?

    Sure, no way would I want a woman who will both (a) service me and (b) subsidize me.

    Hell, if some billionaire heiress wanted to marry me I’d take her.

    In my experience, everyone who marries money winds up earning it, one way or the other.

  163. The way they promote it here though you’d think it was Australia’s Budweiser.

    It is. That’s why it’s not very popular. ^_^

    Actually the Fosters sold in Canada the US is made in Canada and if my information is correct is made to conform to American tastes and tastes completely different than Australian-made Fosters.

    I don’t like either one particularly but Fosters does make a pretty nice bitter ale.

  164. FTSR very true about acquiring taste. I used to drink Miller Lite by the case load in college and hated Sierra Nevada the first time I tried it. Now its pretty much the opposite.

  165. I do like a lot of the berry flavored beers in the Portland Or. area.

  166. Some beers are better at room temp in my opinion. Winehards ale and coors come to mind.

  167. Coors? Are you serious? I’d never have a macrolager at any temp higher than ice cold. Theres something about them that makes them 100x better that way.

  168. weinhard’s? wienhard’s?

    crap…..Henry’s

  169. yup, coors, in a bottle, at room temperature. I can’t stand the flavor cold. It is bad bitter to me.

  170. Of course, it isn’t illegal to have sex with a prostitute, only to pay her for it….

  171. Sam Adams is a beer I have to have warmer than normal. Too cold and the taste is really lost in that beer.

    Stupid restauraunts with their frosted glasses…

  172. Also, there is no national brewery in Australia to speak of. It’s generally been a regional matter.

    For example, even in a state as small as Tasmania it’s Cascade in the South and Boag’s in the north.

    Fosters is big in Melbourne I think, but even there I’m not sure if it’s the biggest seller.

    It certainly isn’t a “national” brewery.

    On the other hand most of the breweries are now owned by multinationals.

  173. Isaac, I’d bet we’d still have mostly regional breweries in the USA too if it wasn’t for prohibition.

  174. Okay, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but how the hell does it end up as a discussion of beer? Swedish hookers aren’t interesting enough to hold your attention?

    Nerds!

  175. Cesar, that’s probably true, but other countries had prohibition, too.

    In the US it led to that kind of concentration mostly because of the total national nature of prohibition here.

    Canada’s prohibition was province by province and at different, but overlapping, times. Nevertheless a lot of brewers went out of business there.

    Australia’s prohibition was extremely limited, but the fact that local prohibition existed there shows just how extensive hostility to “the demon rum” was.

  176. Two more for the pencil! Y’all live in CA am I right?

    Done and yes.

    And I’ve just taken up wine drinking (for my health ya know) so I’m gonna be haunting yer site a bit.

    I appreciate the business.

  177. Swedish hooker? Wasn’t that a Muppets skit or something? “b?ink! b?ink! b?ink!”

  178. Yeah, many people don’t seem to realize that alcohol, like most other things, is about acquiring a taste

    For me, red wine was an epiphany. We were drinking rot gut beer, Too-kill-ya Sunrises, and probably some version of Tyrolia and ran out. While somebody made a beer run Jacqui takes me into her kitchen and says I’ve got something you might like.

    I look around furtively and say….but your husband is in the other room

    She hits me and then she reaches way back under the kitchen counter and pulls out a bottle of cabernet and says, I was hiding this bottle from the swine. She pops the cork, pours a glass, hands it to me, and it has been all down hill from there. I’m thinking where HAS this stuff been for the last decade?

  179. I’m thinking where HAS this stuff been for the last decade?

    Meaning then, not now. I’ve been taking a glass of the red for my health for way longer than a decade.

  180. I’ve long had a fantasy of raping Catherine McKinnon. “You want rape? I’ll give you rape.”

    The point of the mass market beers is that they’re consistent and not bad. They’re nobody’s favorite, but they’re nobody’s anti-favorite either.

  181. Stevo,
    we got on the beer due to a link from TWC at 4:34.

    TWC,
    I do have an affinity for a good beaujolais.

  182. “They’re nobody’s favorite, but they’re nobody’s anti-favorite either.”

    Coors is my anti-favorite. I get sick just thinking about that piss. But Bud and Miller products are OK.

  183. AP says bareback it was – according to a law enforcement official.

    It also appears that Spitzer could have dropped as much as eighty grand on hooker diddling… even at the prices these people were charging, that’s a lot of diddling. I don’t thing the ‘isolated lapse’ defence is going to work this time.

  184. Oh, and Lonewacko is a halfwit asshole. (Whereas Dondero is an asswit halfhole. It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one.)

  185. I don’t thing the ‘isolated lapse’ defence is going to work this time.

    Heh. Nope peachy, not this time. The transcripts reveal he had to ask for help remembering what “Kristen” looked like so you know he wasn’t a first-timer. Not only does it imply he had seen her before, but that he’d seen so many others since then he couldn’t remember which one she was. If you’ve only seen two or three, I’m pretty sure you’d remember; if you’ve seen 20, I might understand your difficulty placing the name.

  186. What can possibly be nerdy about a discussion of beer? Stevo you are confused, man.

    Malt Liquor out of a brown bag now that is stylin’ and profilin’ in any neighborhood!

  187. If I recall the whole argument correctly, as in how this odd pathology has been evolved in women’s studies classes but maybe not in this particular thread, all women are victims of men turning them into sex objects. They are not “whores” by choice, men force them to be.

    For some reason, the term “mini rape” comes to mind, I think it was used in some of this woman-as-victim theory. If a man told a woman she had nice legs, that was considered a “mini-rape”.

    Here’s the embarrassing personal revelation part of the thread. (You were waiting for it, I know!) Though I know this theory is ridiculous and false, I’m still fucked up in the head enough that I more or less live by it. It has something to do with being the kind of guy women aren’t really into or something (short, not really good looking), but I have this image of the disappointment in the eyes of any woman I hit on or approach, so I mostly don’t. Even when I can work myself up to it, the image is still there and it makes me so hesitant and shy that I usually back off or equivocate my approach to an extent that I might as well not have made it.

    I’ve gotten slightly better (slowly) on this hesitation, but the fact remains that every woman I’ve been involved with has been the aggressor in the relationship. Again, quoting myself, as I’m “the kind of guy women aren’t really into” it hasn’t made me much of a love life. Embarrassing personal story ends. Discuss.

  188. And I’m not even drunk this time.

  189. You just chose the wrong major, Someone. Liberal Arts majors get laid! (kidding)

  190. LOL, I know. If I had it to do over again, I’d have gone to a just-turned-coed, previously-all-girls school for undergrad. Then I imagine the whole “being pursued” dynamic my personal psychic pathology seems to demand could have been satisfied.

    Actually I think in that situation, I still could have been a mathematician and have been perfectly successful. Maybe I’m underestimating my lack of appeal with the ladies, though.

  191. I’m in a somewhat evil mood right now. The womyn at feministing are ;ikely all three baggers.

    One Bagger – Put a bag over her face so you can maintain an erection.
    Two Bagger – Put a bag over her face and your own. In case hers come off.
    Three Bagger – Two bagger reasons plus one by the door as a courtesy for anyone who wanders in.

  192. every woman I’ve been involved with has been the aggressor in the relationship

    Sometimes it works out that way. Not always a downside there. I, for one, am, er ah, was, quite happy any time some chick was brazen enough to come on to me. It’s a treat. An ego boost. Okay, a couple of times it wasn’t, especially if it’s someone with black marks on her cheeks from biting tires and chasing cars. Or a client. Or the wife of a client.

    On a slightly different note, the idea that for eternity men were the boss and women hid in the basement is more myth than reality.

    Think about that old visual gag that dates to early cartoons where the little scrawny guys stumbles through the door, three hours late from work, drunk as a pig, and his humongous wife (with huge, gelatinous, charging rhino haunches) slams him in the back of the head with a cast iron frying pan.

    Sure it’s a gag, but gags come from reality and there’s just enough truth in stereotypes to make them plausible.

    How many of our grandparents handed over their paycheck every Friday and the old lady doled out just enough for cigarettes and maybe a beer after work on Friday.

    For every modern woman who thinks her great grandma was in chains there is a great grandma who ruled the roost with a rolling pin.

  193. J sub, Tou. Are. Funny. Guy.

    You know damn well they’re all three baggers. LOL.

  194. S/B J sub, You. Are. Funny. Guy.

    Not even into the juice yet.

    I once made my roommate lie face down on the couch with three bags over his head while I snuck this chick out. Well, not with bags but I did make him lie face down and close his eyes.

  195. every woman I’ve been involved with has been the aggressor in the relationship

    Sometimes it works out that way.

    And I don’t mind it when it does, I just wish it’d work out that way a little more often!

  196. MacKinnon is a damned fool. She’s the same stupid bint who said that women should be entitled to reneg on contracts.

    -jcr

  197. Mackinnon is much worse than a damned fool.

  198. As a Christian, let me offer up a solution: Just legalize the damned profession! I don’t recall Jesus commanding his followers to go forth and imprison sinners.

  199. TWC,

    Think about that old visual gag that dates to early cartoons where the little scrawny guys stumbles through the door, three hours late from work, drunk as a pig, and his humongous wife (with huge, gelatinous, charging rhino haunches) slams him in the back of the head with a cast iron frying pan.

    Rolling pins were another effective weapon in the funnies.

    Another item, this business abut rolling the Feministas in flour, is that before battering or after?

  200. every woman I’ve been involved with has been the aggressor in the relationship

    Only problem is that you fall into the same problem that the stereo type women put on aggressive men….that their aggression does not stop with you and will simply go to the next prey 6 months later.

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