"Jane Roe" Endorses Ron Paul

About an hour ago Norma McCorvey, a.k.a "Jane Roe" from the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, formally endorsed Ron Paul at the Phoenix Park hotel in Washington. Why didn't she endorse a frontrunner like Mike Huckabee? Thank the grassroots: She saw a newspaper ad in Nevada, bought by Paul supporters, using the analogy of the frog and the pot of boiling water to demonstrate what was happening to America. "It touched my heart." That was three weeks ago, and McCorvey keynoted a pro-life Paul rally in Nevada on January 12th, but the campaign made the official announcement today before Paul spoke at the March for Life. McCorvey:

I support Ron Paul for president because we share the same goal, that of overturning Roe v Wade. Ron Paul doesn't just talk about being pro-life, he acts on it. His voting record truly is impeccable and he undoubtedly understands our constitutional republic and the inalienable right to life for all. Ron Paul is the prime author of H.R. 300, which would negate the effect of Roe v. Wade. As the signor of the affidavit that legalized abortion 35 years ago I appreciate Ron Paul's action to restore protection for the unborn. Ron Paul has also authored H.R. 1094 in Congress, which seeks to define life as beginning at conception. He has never wavered on the issue of being pro-life and has a voting record to prove it. He understands the importance of civil liberties for all, including the unborn.

Paul took questions from a tiny audience of press and local supporters after elucidating his abortion views. Roe was wrongly decided; federal courts need to be taken out of the loop on abortion law to let states make their own laws. A constitutional amendment would be "a tedious solution; it takes a long time." Pro-lifers need to make this possible, in public opinion, before lawmakers move. "The ultimate test of the right to life movement is how we change attitudes on this."

McCorvey was frustrated at the lack of attention her original Reno endorsement got, but she was lighthearted today. "When you're president," she asked Paul, "can I stay over at the White House?"

"Anytime," Paul said. The supporters in the back of the room cracked up.

"I'll take the Lincoln Bedroom," said McCorvey.

UPDATE: Paul said that he found McCorvey compelling because she changed her mind on abortion in 1995, so he was asked what he thought of Mitt Romney's evolution on the issue. He generally praised Romney, but I want to listen to the tape before I run what he said.

Comments

[MLK]

What she doesn't understand, is Paul has a 75% NARAL voting record in recent years and is all over the place.

the legislation she sites, first the "Life starts at conception" would quickly be ruled Unconstitutional by atleast a 5 to 4 ruling, if it got that far, possibly 9-0 since the Constitution says it applies to 'those born in'.

the part about taking the issue away from the courts is counterproductive and pointless, as long as the Supreme Law of the land(Roe and Casey) are on the books with all the jurisprudence since then. The only effect it would have is confusing the issue and stop any future federal related issues with life.

the guy is all over the map on the issue and is counterproductive.

[Chris Baker]

There isn't all that much Doctor Paul can do about abortion. Plus, I don't know if the abortion lovers care about this endorsement.

[Amanda]

The pro life people could care less about life, they just want to control womens bodies. It ia all part of an organized, multicentury long hierarchical patriarchy.

Obviously a fetus is not alive if it is not wanted, everyone knows that. No one knows when life begins so we need to assume it is at birth.

Abortion must be legal thru all nine month right up till the cord is cut. It is the most important, God given right any woman has, without it all other rights are meaningless.

[Randolph Carter]

oh dear god Abortion and Ron Paul. It's the perfect thread-storm.

[Catoite]

I heard that Ron Paul doesn't mind if black women get abortions.

[javier]

Obviously a fetus is not alive if it is not wanted, everyone knows that

ummm... WTF kind of logic and reasoning is that??

so anything that is not wanted is not alive?

You may want to go a little deeper in qualifying that.

[Beltway Blackbelt]

Birth control (including abortion) is needed to keep the lower classes from out-breeding finer stock.

[Warren]

Maybe we should concentrate on endorsements from intelligent, accomplished, respectable people like Gary Johnson, and not take so much notice of the of the galacticly stupid.

[Amanda Is Probably Promiscuous]

Dear Amanda - Did you notice that you didn't cite any evidence to prove your assertion that ANYONE who is pro life is at heart a control freak? ''Obviously a fetus is not alive if it is not wanted, everyone knows that.'' This sentence proves your total lack of logic. Simply by not wanting a baby to be born, we may render it ''dead''? I'm not sure how in the world you can believe something so profoundly stupid. Also, the fact that you believe the right to an abortion is more important for women than free speech or the right to vote says a lot about you, I'm afraid.

[Seer]

Amanda, please tell me that is satire. It's way too hard to tell with libertarians sometimes.

[jackanapestarian]

"When you're president," she asked Paul, "can I stay over at the White House?"
"Anytime," Paul said. The supporters in the back of the room cracked up.
"I'll take the Lincoln Bedroom," said McCorvey.

Charming. And they lived happily ever after.

[Amanda]

http://pandagon.blogsome.com/

[robc]

I have long considered the possibility that the logic gene is located on the Y chromosone. Amanda's posts from yesterday's thread (and today's) have just about convinced me.

[Amanda Is Probably Promiscuous]

Obviously, if the teenage mother didn't want her baby, it was never alive to begin with!

Pure genius

[Taktix?]

Ok, I'm calling 300+ posts easy...

[jj]

Darn! I thought Amanda was being ironic in the last abortion thread. Her comments were so deliciously outrageous and sexist they seemed funny.

Amanda, I can respect both pro-choice and positions, but not one that blames men for simply wanting to enslave women. Are you aware that more men are pro-choice than women? Men actually like the freedom not to have to deal with alimony. Some simply believe that it is a human being and feel they need to pay their dues.

[DavidS]

Oh god - a troll pretending to be Amanda Marcotte. What kind of double hell is that?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Dear Amanda - Did you notice that you didn't cite any evidence to prove your assertion that ANYONE who is pro life is at heart a control freak?"
Actually, in my undergrad days we ran some numbers from I think the GSS and there was considerable overlap between people who were pro-life and those who were rather prudish on things like extramarital affairs and such. In fact your stupid comment:
"Also, the fact that you believe the right to an abortion is more important for women than free speech or the right to vote says a lot about you, I'm afraid."

Heavily implies that connection...

Can't say much for Amanda's logic on the "not alive because not wanted" part though. As a pro-choice person I would say that any non-viable entity without a functioning brain of any significance is not a life. If you look at centuries of common understanding, as manifested in such things as the common law, fetuses just were not considered people...

[kohlrabi]

Wow, I was absolutely sure Amanda was a parody. Then I linked to her website. Horrible. It should have a link to Larouche's website so they can share rhetorical techniques.

[Benji Rush]

Amanda,

You are obviously not basing your opinion on either science or the law. Science proves a fetus is alive and can be delivered as early as 21 weeks, 6 days.

The rule of law states that no person shall be deprived of life without due process of law. Under generally understood concepts of the law, the only defendable reason to deprive a person of life is in defense. That's why the death penalty doesn't apply. That's why pre-emptive war doesn't apply.

The life issue has nothing to do with patriarchy. It has everything to do with the fact that 1/3rd of my generation is gone thanks to Roe v. Wade. That includes men and women.

[Amanda]

I have long considered the possibility that the logic gene is located on the Y chromosone.

Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy, there are other, non-linear forms of thought that are more valid. Logic is meant to oppress womyn.

[JayDubya]

The damage has already been done to our governmental system, but if it hadn't have been her, it would have been someone else. I do have to laud her for fighting to undo the legal absurdity she helped to create.

And of course, she has good taste in presidential candidates.

[andy]

amanda, you completely miss the secular crux of ron paul's argument: if it's not alive then why are ob/gyns sued if they accidentally harm the fetus? after all, it's not like they killed anyone. should it just be an "aw, shucks" moment for the ob/gyn?

why was scott peterson convicted for the murder of laci peterson *and* her unborn son?

your "logic" has bigger disagreements with the law than it does with ron paul. although, the law seems to have disagreements with itself on this issue.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

A person can certainly see what they think of as reproductive rights to be pretty fundamental without being a skank. I mean, we ARE on a site where people think the right to contribute 10,000 dollars or the right to employ people in dangerous occupations is fundamental, fer christ sake.

[tarran]

I have long considered the possibility that the logic gene is located on the Y chromosone.

Carefull there robc:

Dave W has a Y-Chromosome.
Eric Dondero has a Y chromosome.

Jennifer does not have one.

I think your theory is flawed.

[dhex]

dude you guys are getting trolled hardcore.

ps. calling your reply name "...is probably promiscuous" is a good way of reinforcing that some abortion opponents are interested more in social control and sexual chastity.

[JayDubya]

"Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy, there are other, non-linear forms of thought that are more valid. Logic is meant to oppress womyn."

lol joke poster confirmed? I hope?

[DavidS]

dude you guys are getting trolled hardcore.

ps. calling your reply name "...is probably promiscuous" is a good way of reinforcing that some abortion opponents are interested more in social control and sexual chastity.

Amanda and Amanda is Probably Promiscuous are presumably the same troll...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"You are obviously not basing your opinion on either science or the law. Science proves a fetus is alive and can be delivered as early as 21 weeks, 6 days."
And the court has ruled that there is a state interest of stepping in to protect a fetus as one gets closer to viability, right? And some do.

"amanda, you completely miss the secular crux of ron paul's argument: if it's not alive then why are ob/gyns sued if they accidentally harm the fetus?" But its not treated as a murder is it? Now you answer why not.

[kohlrabi]

"Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy, there are other, non-linear forms of thought that are more valid."

Like makebelieve.

OK, she's definitely a troll, not being serious. Moving on...

[fyodor]

Is this part of the smear campaign? I can't tell!

[Lamar]

Norma McCovey is 100% full of crap. She was the pro-choice poster child for over 20 years, then all of the sudden she claims that she had no idea "Jane Roe" meant so much to the pro-choice movement. In fact, she's wrong on two levels. She's full of it to say she didn't know Roe v. Wade was a rallying cry, and she's full of it to assume that anybody gave a crap about Norma McCovey (as opposed to fictional person Roe).

Frankly, I feel sad that people give that old bag any credence, whether they admire her for her pre-flip flop pro-choice stance or her post-flop pro-life stance.

[Heidi]

I heard that Ron Paul doesn't mind if black women get abortions.

This is blatantly wrong. Ron Paul is one of the only people who actually understands that civil liberties are God-given, not given by the government. That means civil liberties for white, black, brown, gay, straight, born and unborn. His message is purely non-prejudiced.

The chairman of the NAACP has known him for 20 years, coincidentally, and has said that Ron Paul isn't racist.

The pro life people could care less about life, they just want to control womens bodies. It ia all part of an organized, multicentury long hierarchical patriarchy.

Wow, I thought Ron Paul people were supposed to have cornered the tin foil hat market. You couldn't be farther from the truth. I am a woman and pro life, and I do believe the issue of abortion is very complicated and needs discussion. It's not a matter of just a woman's body... it's a matter of the fetus as well.

The law states that if a person beats a pregnant woman, and that woman miscarries, you can be charged with murder. The law also states that it's alright to snap the neck of a child coming out of the birth canal as long as the mother wants it so.

This arbitrary law is very dangerous because it's literally based on the whim of the mother at that moment, even when the child could survive outside the womb.

Dr. Ron Paul, a gynecologist who's delivered over 4,000 babies, has seen an abortion performed where the child came out very much alive, kicking, and screaming. The doctors put the living baby in a bucket until the cries stopped.

If there's any conspiracy here, Amanda, it's the conspiracy of population control. Every unborn child is less money the government would have to spend finding that child loving parents. It's quite literally throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[SPD]

Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

[jj]

Amanda, you are my new hero. Can I use this comment as my new signature. I loves it that much:

Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy, there are other, non-linear forms of thought that are more valid. Logic is meant to oppress womyn.

[dhex]

Amanda and Amanda is Probably Promiscuous are presumably the same troll...

ehhh, you have greater faith in the ability of the blind to see hilarity than i do.

[some dude]

the part about taking the issue away from the courts is counterproductive and pointless, as long as the Supreme Law of the land(Roe and Casey) are on the books with all the jurisprudence since then. The only effect it would have is confusing the issue and stop any future federal related issues with life.

Au contraire. It would be rather simple and straight-forward. Jurisprudence is based on precedent. A lower court rules on a case a certain way because the assumption is that if that case were taken all the way up to the SCOTUS, the High Court would rule the same it did in the past. If appellate jurisdiction is taken away by congress (which they have every power to do), state courts have no assumptions as to what the SCOTUS would do. They can rule on their own.

[DavidS]

Heidi - congratulations - take a joke at face value and respond to a troll - all in one post.

[DX10]

Amanda says; The pro life people could care less about life, they just want to control womens bodies.

Well, it is pretty clear that a lot of women can't control their bodies. Don't want a child, don't get pregnant.

[robc]

tarran,

Just because the logic gene is on the Y doesnt mean that all of us with a Y have that gene (or have the version that is turned on).

Ive also considered the possibility that it is on the X, but is recessive. Thus, women would need to pro-logic genes before it kicks in. And some men would still be without. That is my nicer version and I generally dont prefer to be nice.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

It is a simple fact that there is considerable overlap between folks who oppose abortion and those who oppose extra or pre-marital sex, for instance. Check out any GSS data set for proof of this...

Now the two don't NECESSARILY have to go together, or LOGICALLY, but they often do EMPIRICALLY...

[andy]

mr. nice guy:

i don't know of an ob/gyn case to support this, but from the scott peterson trial:

"On November 12 the reconstituted jury convicted Peterson of first-degree murder with special circumstances for killing Laci and second-degree murder for killing his unborn son."

ianal, but my assumption is that ob/gyns get sued for negligence the same reason any doctor gets sued for negligence when somebody dies (or doesn't die, i guess... depends on if you consider the fetus living).

[Dave W.]

Jennifer does not have one.

I think J. deleted my comment over at the Feral Genius site. What was that all about?

[Taktix?]

Heidi - congratulations - take a joke at face value and respond to a troll - all in one post.

DavidS,

Don't forget the unnecessary, eye-glazing length. Me thinks that's the trifecta of dumbass posting...

Damn Paulbots...

[Amanda]

amanda, you completely miss the secular crux of ron paul's argument: if it's not alive then why are ob/gyns sued if they accidentally harm the fetus? after all, it's not like they killed anyone. should it just be an "aw, shucks" moment for the ob/gyn?

If you have an accident with a pregnant woman and the fetus is harmed, it is murder, even if she is her way driving to the abortion clinic, because what if she changed her mind.

[Heidi]

DavidS - very cute. I don't care if it's a troll or not, I'm making a point for people who may not know.

[James Kabala]

I am pro-life, but I feel obliged to point out that the boiling frog thing is a myth:

http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2006/09/the_boiledfrog_myth_stop_the_l.php#more

Amanda, by the way, either actually is, or possibly is someone pretending to be, Amanda Marcotte, who gained fame a while back after her controversial comments about Catholicism and the virgin birth caused her to lose a job with the John Edwards campaign.

She may be of more interest to Reason posters (who seem to be generally non-religious) for once claiming that libertarians think they own the poor. See http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/11/01/6263/ for the original comment to this effect and http://juliansanchez.com/notes/archives/2007/11/dance_for_me_peons_dance_mooho.php for commentary on the subject by one of Reason's own.

[Lamar]

Could I please get somebody to opine on why Norma McCovey means anything to anybody? Aside from cheap symbolic value of an old lady who changed her mind while waiting to get into heaven, is there any value in what she says? Roe v. Wade is about Jane Roe, a fictional person. Any connection to McCovey is irrelevant. Yes, that includes the fact that McCovey was Jane Roe.

Amanda: Any opinion on old bags who change their minds when they reach the earlybird special age?

[Brett]

"Abortion must be legal thru all nine month right up till the cord is cut. It is the most important, God given right any woman has"

Em, abortion as a God given right? This boggles my mind...

Heidi, I applaud your Ron Paul enthusiasm, but I think Catoite was only joking.

[To Mr. Nice Guy]

When a woman is pregnant, she is growing a living organism in her uterus. If you kill a fetus, you are destroying a life. All abortions should be, in my opinion, carried out only as a result of something barbaric like incest, rape, etc. There is no other valid reason to kill an unborn child. That being said, I do not wish to see my personal views on this matter imposed by the Feds on the female population. I just don't support abortion to save a womans reputation. Put the kid up for adoption if you can't afford to raise it.

[Heidi]

Don't forget the unnecessary, eye-glazing length. Me thinks that's the trifecta of dumbass posting...

Poor thing. Don't like reading? It's okay, I understand.

[dhex]

Ron Paul is one of the only people who actually understands that civil liberties are God-given

actually, let's hijack this shit cause i have what, in street parlance, would be called "beef" - that is to say, a complaint or dispute with - the whole natural law thing.

1) prove it! where the fuck is this fucking god or fucking nature that gives us these so-fucking-called natural fucking rights?

2) enforce it! why the living fiddle faddle do these natural rights evaporate as soon as some two bit bureaucrat - pardon, fucking bureaucrat - says "lie down on the floor and remain calm"? it's almost like they don't really exist in any concrete way.

3) don't get me wrong! i mean, i like it when people pretend that natural rights exist because it's another arsenal in the "fuck you, gubmint" playbook. taking the idea seriously is right up there with venusians at the center of the earth. it might be fine for personal spiritual rule-making, but good luck selling it to someone else.

[C Smith]

"The pro life people could care less about life, they just want to control womens bodies. It ia all part of an organized, multicentury long hierarchical patriarchy.

Obviously a fetus is not alive if it is not wanted, everyone knows that. No one knows when life begins so we need to assume it is at birth."

Thanks for the reminder that many pro-deathers are complete moonbats who will say anything they think serves their purpose.

[javier]

But its not treated as a murder is it? Now you answer why not.

Scott peterson was charged with two counts of murder. I have never heard a pro-choicer say that is inconsistant if the fetus infact has no legal rights.

[yoshi]

Thank the grassroots: She saw a newspaper ad in Nevada, bought by Paul supporters,

She has been a tool used by various groups her entire life. Its of no surprise a mere newspaper ad is all it took for her to support somebody. I am sure she will see a huckabee leaflet stapled to a poll tomorrow and change her position.

All this ignores that annoying little fact that RP has no chance of being president.

[andy]

"If you have an accident with a pregnant woman and the fetus is harmed, it is murder, even if she is her way driving to the abortion clinic, because what if she changed her mind."

i'm confused as to how this doesn't support my point. i'm saying that a fetus has to be considered alive for there to be a murder. you just substantiated that, thereby refuting your earlier (hasty and quick) assumption that "life begins at birth."

if you're a troll, you're like, the worst ever... which may make you the best.

[smacky]

Dr. Ron Paul, a gynecologist who's delivered over 4,000 babies, has seen an abortion performed where the child came out very much alive, kicking, and screaming. The doctors put the living baby in a bucket until the cries stopped.

This is a made-up story. Way to spew out false apocrypha, Paulbot.

And AmandaM is a troll. Probably a pro-life troll, at that.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"If you kill a fetus, you are destroying a life. All abortions should be, in my opinion, carried out only as a result of something barbaric like incest, rape, etc."
Now THAT'S illogical. If it is a life, then why should it matter that it was produced by incest or rape? Think: what if the product of rape was born, and two years later the mom could not stand to look at it anymore and killed it. Certainly that is wrong? If it's just as much a life in the uterus then why does its origin matter? Try again...

" but my assumption is that ob/gyns get sued for negligence the same reason any doctor gets sued for negligence when somebody dies (or doesn't die, i guess... depends on if you consider the fetus living)." They get sued if they mess up my kidney too, but my kidney is not a person.

[Amanda]

And AmandaM is a troll. Probably a pro-life troll, at that.

Yes.

[Gilbert Martin]

A lower court rules on a case a certain way because the assumption is that if that case were taken all the way up to the SCOTUS, the High Court would rule the same it did in the past. If appellate jurisdiction is taken away by congress (which they have every power to do), state courts have no assumptions as to what the SCOTUS would do. They can rule on their own.

Congress does have the power to limit the appellate juridisction of the Supreme Court - but not in cases where a State shall be a party as per Article 3, Section 2 of the Constitution:

"In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."

[Episiarch]

You know, Saturn (Cronos) ate his children as a form of birth control.

[SPD]

"Abortions for me, but not for thee." --N. McCorvey

I support overturning Roe v. Wade, if only to prevent a more socially conservative court from using this precedent to come in later and outlaw all abortions, everywhere.

Perhaps if a few more drugstore would carry RU-486 and the local PTA's would stop wringing their hands about sex education in high school, there wouldn't be as much of a demand for abortions in the first place.

Nope, nope... too logical for the fundies.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Scott peterson was charged with two counts of murder. I have never heard a pro-choicer say that is inconsistant if the fetus infact has no legal rights."
If I remember that was part of the impetus behind these laws, which do not exist in every state I think (and why not, eh?) (which are fairly recent, right?), to make for the supposed inconsistency and further the pro-life cause. Many pro-choicers went along since we do think fetuses are valuable things and that viable ones can be protected as full lives.

[andy]

mr. nice guy:

okay, i concede that you have me there and i could get into ticky-tacky arguments and you could present to me how killing cancer is also taking life - genetically unique life, at that.

but if scott peterson killed laci peterson and her kidneys, i don't think it would be considered a triple murder.

according to that case, a fetus is alive. you have yet to respond to that half of my statement.

[Lamar]

Gotta ask: If life begins at conception, and we're genuinely concerned with life (as opposed to control of women), then why is the product of rape or incest non-life?

[To Mr. Nice Guy]

It matters because the sex required to get the woman pregnant in the event of rape or incest is not consensual.

Why don't YOU try again? You didn't even think about what you just typed, apparently.

[James Kabala]

SPD: She never actually had an abortion, because the case dragged out so long.

[de stijl]

I'll give it one half-hearted effort: reasonable people disagree. Pro-life or pro-choice, you're not going to change anyone's mind with your bloggy advocacy.

BTW, responding to an obvious troll makes you look like a doofus.

[To Mr. Nice Guy]

edit: not usually, at least (in the event of incest)

[Earl E]

Consenting adults engaging in the reproductive act are simply following the course of nature.

It is an agreement to procreate. Any other view denies the reality. Once an egg is fertilized, it is the beginning of alife.

Any other view denies reality.

So maybe those that wish to allow for murder of defenseless children are simply trying to promote sex for fun.

So have fun sex and slaughter your children.

Pathetic humans, just as bad as the neaderthals. Just bigger sticks and stones, same cave(bunker) mentality.

[Inkstained Wretch]

I have nothing to add to the debate on abortion here. I would only point out though that the analogy Paul uses of the frog and the pot of boiling water is bogus, an urban myth.

In reality frogs will try to escape the water once it becomes too warm. Snopes.com pointed this out a while ago.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"It matters because the sex required to get the woman pregnant in the event of rape or incest is not consensual."

Are you an idiot or something? It's OK to kill someone if the sex that created them was not consensual? WTF?

[jj]

Smacky: "This is a made-up story. Way to spew out false apocrypha, Paulbot."

Actually Ron Paul himself related the story on national media, NPR, I think. Now you can choose not to believe RP, but calling someone a Paulbot because you are woefully ignorant is a little beyond the pale.

[javier]

prove it! where the fuck is this fucking god or fucking nature that gives us these so-fucking-called natural fucking rights?

our rationality. the ability of free speech, expression etc. comes from our nature. our nature as rational, thinking beings. without interference it is natural for a human being to use his mind and make choices and act on those choices. this is natural state of man. only government or criminals can take this away, forcing man to go against his nature.

was that to randian?

[DavidS]

So "To Mr Nice Guy" and "Amanda is Promiscuous" are one and the same - but are they the same as "Amanda"?

[some dude]

I am pro-life, but I feel obliged to point out that the boiling frog thing is a myth:

Why? It is such a good analogy. As an analogy, it doesn't actually matter if you can boil a frog. The truth of the point you are trying to make does not depend on it.

[jj]

Inkstained Wretch:

Maybe it was a suicidal frog?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Look, if you are going to be pro-life then accept the logically necessary yet stinky conclusions: products of rape and incest are lifes and must be protected too.

I realize you have not thought this through much...
YOU: Babies, yay! Rape, yuck! Abortion, bad, but in case of rape, OK.

As I said, try again. Read some books and stuff...

[DavidS, Blog Detective]

Yes, its okay in my worldview to eradicate bastard children who were conceived by rape or incest. This is different from a girl having consensual sex and accidentally getting pregnant. Then the child should be spared and either raised by the girls family or put up for abortion. Why this is so mind-boggling for you is very curious.

[Eric Dondero]

Someone should dig up a copy of Ron Paul's book from the 1970s "Abortion & Liberty" published by Mark Elam's M&M productions in Houston. It's a real eye opener. Paul uses very harsh anti-abortion rhetoric in the book charging that doctors who perform abortions are essentially "murderers."

It's rather interesting that the book has fallen off the face of the earth. You can get Paul's misspelled "Freedom under Seige" from 1988 on pdf, but not "Abortion & Liberty."

[javier]

raised by the girls family or put up for abortion

i'm guessing mistype??

[Matt]

edit: adoption. Thanks Javier

[brotherben]

Wait. I think amanda is onto something here. If we take a vote and decide amanda is unwanted, can we pay someone to "abort" her?

[andy]

davids: it's just inconsistent. either life is life or it isn't.

the question that has to be asked first and foremost is "does abortion end a life?" all other questions regarding medical privacy or consent or whatever are straw men at best and red herrings at worst.

if it's a life when a woman is inseminated consensually, why isn't it when it's not consensual?

again, the issue of consent is a non-issue when compared to the issue of life, which ostensibly gets the governments protection first and foremost.

[dhex]

our rationality. the ability of free speech, expression etc. comes from our nature. our nature as rational, thinking beings. without interference it is natural for a human being to use his mind and make choices and act on those choices. this is natural state of man. only government or criminals can take this away, forcing man to go against his nature.

was that to randian?

a bit, yeah. i give you a b- for effort though!

problems with that:

1) if our nature is rational, why is human history fraught with irrationality?

2) what does "without interference it is natural for a human being to use his mind and make choices and act on those choices." have to do with the price of tea in china?* it's also natural for me to pee. peeing does not guarantee me innate rights. unless the president (or some other crime lord) is a pee freak and into that sort of thing, in which case pass the cranberry juice - i feel the natural rights just a-flowin' through me!

*in another thread there's probably a funny joke to be made about tea prices and no blood for oolong but this is not that thread.

[Earl E]

Children of rape and incest is too difficult for me to answer. The child created isn't going to argue for its own abortion, if it could talk it would probably say "Mommy, don't kill me."
Even though I think it is truely one of the worst things for a women to deal with, the child inside didn't ask to be created.

The child still has rights.

[dhex]

jj, beyond the pale would be me accusing you of murdering that little girl down in east plano, texas, twelve years ago on a foggy, moonless night.

beyond the pale doesn't mean "wrong" - it means "egregiously shitty."

[Matt]

Andy, I think it is morally justifiable to kill a bastard child conceived through non-consensual sex. This makes sense to me because the girl or woman should not be forced to support or find a well being for a child that she was forcibly impregnanted with. The sooner the abortion is carried out in this case, the better.

[andy]

dhex: i would say peeing gives you the innate right to pee, although any other rights that this need/desire/ability confers are limited.

[DavidS]

While we're on natural rights, when did libertarians reject the social contract bit of Hobbesian/Lockean natural rights theory? Or didn't they? Am I just confused?

[Lamar]

"Why this is so mind-boggling for you is very curious."

It isn't mind-boggling. It's just proof that you care about controlling women and not life per se.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

Mr. Nice Guy,

Yes, you are correct: it is inconsistent to be pro-life but allow abortions in cases of rape and incest (unless you aren't basing your opposition to abortion on the fetus being a life, but what pro-lifers don't?).

This is why I opposed abortion even in cases of incest or rape. Don't punish someone for a crime their father committed. The only exception that I will grant is in order to save the life of the mother.

[dhex]

yes but andy, with a catheter my so-called "natural right" to pee is easily suspended, diverted and - in the case of certain films in german and japan - tubed upward and downward yet again, hoisting me on my own petard.

some fucking natural right that is, so easily diverted with 99 cents of tubing.

[Lamar]

I really can't figure out how being an innocent product of rape allows you to be "murdered" as the pro-lifers like to say. Don't tell me life begins at conception except when it doesn't.

[Lamar]

What if a rapist sires a child, the mother has the child and gives it up for adoption, then the father finds it and kills it. Murder?

[andy]

matt:

once again. answer this question first: does abortion end a life?

the issue isn't divided on pro-consent/pro-rape/incest lines! the issue is surrounding whether or not a life is taken.

it might make sense to you, but it shows no sense of consistency. i feel that if pro-lifers weren't so a la carte with their pro-life stance (eg, pro-lifers who are also pro death penalty) they might be taken more seriously.

[dhex]

What if a rapist sires a child, the mother has the child and gives it up for adoption, then the father finds it and kills it. Murder?

i don't know, but it sounds like a banging game of Clue.

While we're on natural rights, when did libertarians reject the social contract bit of Hobbesian/Lockean natural rights theory? Or didn't they? Am I just confused?

well depends on who you talk to, it seems. you get quite a few "ain't no such thing as a social contract" type responses from some, and others who say "constitution, duh!" and i'm sure there's about 30,000 more i haven't heard/remembered.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

Dondero:

Paul uses very harsh anti-abortion rhetoric in the book charging that doctors who perform abortions are essentially "murderers."

And why is this "eye opening"? That is the consistent position, assuming that a fetus is a life. Ron Paul is consistent is not an eye opening fact.

[andy]

dhex: where do you find these wonderful toys?! an endless cycle of peeing? urethra massages for everyone!

[robc]

DavidS,

I think social contract is a mixed bag. Some libertarians accept it, some dont. I rejected it well before I was (or at least knew I was) a libertarian. I didnt agree to the social contract, therefore it doesnt exist.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

Taktix :
Ok, I'm calling 300+ posts easy...

Up to 100...

[DavidS]

It's rather interesting that the book has fallen off the face of the earth. You can get Paul's misspelled "Freedom under Seige" from 1988 on pdf, but not "Abortion & Liberty."

So I find that PDF for you on another thread - some poor guy has scanned it in by hand and then OCR-ed it.

And it's somehow a conspiracy that he hasn't done the same for another book?

You need to take some pills, pal.

[DavidS]

robc - but you think the natural rights exist?

[Anonymo the Anonymous]

Just a few hundred more posts and we'll settle this abortion thing once and for all! We're almost there, I can feel it!

[some dude]

Gilbert Martin,

So the SCOTUS can accept an original case between an individual and her state saying the state violated her federal constitutional right to an abortion? I don't know. Doesn't that take a legislative structure? What law and fact would they be ruling on? Doesn't that require federal legislation governing the interaction between and individual and her state by which the SCOTUS could determine if such legislation was violated?

The fourteenth amendment messed so much up. Sloppy constitutionalism.

At the very least, it would force the SCOTUS to re-try an abortion case. Then what? It is exercising its original jurisdiction. Would it be required to take all abortion cases thereafer?

[Shane Brady]

If you're pro-life and believe life begins at conception, great, don't get an abortion. I don't care.

But otherwise mind your own fucking business.

Ron Paul believes in the freedom of the state to oppress women. How twisted.

[Misfits]

"I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up."

The Regressive Party

[robc]

DavidS,

but you think the natural rights exist?

Yeah, but I prefer God-given rights. But either way, yeah.

I also go along with the social contract people on many things. I agree with them on the only legitimate purposes of government, I just dont buy into their mythology on how government came about.

[DavidS]

Thanks robc. I think I am beginning to understand why I spend so much time on this site utterly confused. It comes from being part of an increasingly godless European liberal tradition, I suspect...

[Paul]

um wasn't Adolf Hitler Poe-choice? Didnt he want to kill off the lesser races? Didnt he kill off people with cleft pallets? Didn't he kill old feeble people? Hitlerey has the same plan.

God says "those who hate me love death" hmmm ?

[Vermont Gun Owner]

"If you're pro-life and believe life begins at birth, great, don't commit murder. I don't care.

But otherwise mind your own fucking business.

Shane Brady believes in the freedom of the state to oppress murderers. How twisted."

NOTE: Apologies to Brady if you are a complete anarchist.

[DavidS]

60 odd comments before the first violation of Godwin. Pretty good going...

[John C. Randolph]

"Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy"

I wasn't sure at first whether you were satirizing the pro-choice position, but that made me laugh out loud. Well done.

-jcr

[Atley Jackson]

This is a moot point. Sure Dr. Paul may be pro-life, but he defends the states rights to choose their own laws. I happen to be pro-choice, but I am also a Paul supporter, knowing that he will not take away my right to freedom of choice.

[Cesar]

um wasn't Adolf Hitler Poe-choice? Didnt he want to kill off the lesser races? Didnt he kill off people with cleft pallets? Didn't he kill old feeble people? Hitlerey has the same plan.

Hitler banned abortions for German women. He wanted them to be soldier-making machines.

[Taktix?]

Poor thing. Don't like reading? It's okay, I understand.

Heidi,

Go fuck yourself*. Will post a more adequate response when I've finished my work due at 2 p.m.

*This message brought to you by the Taktix? Go Fuck Yourself Institute, 2008, all rights reserved...

[Christopher (Fipher) D. Osborn]

"I heard that Ron Paul doesn't mind if black women get abortions."

That is a most ridiculous and horrible claim. Ron Paul is no racist! If he was racist he wouldn't be getting the kind of support he gets, like from the Austin NAACP president Nelson Linder. Check out this article: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2008/011308_not_racist.htm

Now I don't know if I agree with Dr. Paul's position that life starts at conception, and so I think it should be up to individual states to decide, but otherwise I think Ron Paul is a great man.

[pedant]

beyond the pale doesn't mean "wrong" - it means "egregiously shitty."

No, it means the area of Ireland outside the control of the King of England. You see, after the Norman Conquest...ah, fuck it.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

I just jerked off, Oh my! A thousand murders?

Apparently some on this thread think so.

~~~

Really though, is government mandated pregnancy something folks can really support?

If I'm understanding what some folks think, I really have to support embryo worship or some sky fairy is gonna send me to hell?

On the assumption that that is where Hunter Thompson and Mark Twain are, where else would I want to be anyway?

[sage]

Lunch today: soup and sandwich, of course.

I had some Aztec Trail Mix earlier though to tide me over. I get pretty hungry in the morning.

[Robert]

Eric, why don't you just refrain from commenting on Ron Paul articles? You are obviously nothing more than a jealous hater.

[Tom Walls]

An Amanda I knew once told me Darwin was wrong because he was an old white guy, not because his basic theory was contradicted by the fossil record or anything.

[J sub D]

Vermont Gun Owner This is why I opposed abortion even in cases of incest or rape. Don't

Vermont Gun Owner, In your morality, when does a zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus become a "person", with rights that require state protection?

[Alice Bowie]

It's a good thing that Coat hangers r made of plastic now-a-days...ahh???

[de stijl]

sage,

Beef vegetable for me with oyster crackers. Why are they called oyster crackers?

[Robert]

Does Eric Dondero still beat his wife?

http://www.lastfreevoice.com/2007/06/01/has-eric-dondero-rittberg-stopped-beating-his-wife/

[Matt]

Life begins when the woman becomes pregnant. You're not destroying life when you masturbate..thats an awfully inaccurate and hysterical paraphrase of the pro-life philosophy. Pro-Lifers like myself just want legitimate (i.e. non-rape, incest) children protected. Im not saying that incestuous children are not ''life''- but I believe it is much less morally reprehensible to dispose of a child of incest or rape than one resulting from accidental pregnancy. I believe women and men should suffer the consequences of their bad decisions and reasonable exceptions can be made for a girl or couple too young to get a job to pay for food and clothing for the child. That is all

[Tacos mmm...]

um wasn't Adolf Hitler Poe-choice? Didnt he want to kill off the lesser races? Didnt he kill off people with cleft pallets? Didn't he kill old feeble people? Hitlerey has the same plan.

Amazing it took this long. This is a particularly shitty discussion, even for an abortion thread.

[sage]

I dunno, de stijl. They're good though. I should get some of those to go with chili. Man I'm hungry.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Matt,

It's true that I'm just playing rude Monyt Python games in this name, but life begins at conception?

The only way I can understand that from a scientific way would be to include sperm in you definition of the beginning of life.

Now, if you are using a purely religious definition of "human life", I could understand, you are saying (I'm guessing) that a "soul" is present at that moment.

But how can you get there from science, and doesn't your definition also say frozen embryo's from Infertility treatments should also be protected?

Hence,

Every Sperm is Sacred!

[Geotpf]

Wow. This is one clusterfuck of a thread.

[Tacos mmm...]

Matt,

Your perspective is a common one, but your positions are basically aribtrary and I see no justification for enforcing them on others. It's also more than a little judgemental and condescending.

[DavidS]

Every Sperm's got it right. You're a Catholic the moment Dad came...

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

And for me, I need really compelling arguments against abortion before I can support such a MASSIVE government intrusion as governmandated pregnancies.

Also, just a small note, most pro-life organizations are also against open availability of birth control, suggesting that the intervention in the female reproductive cycle that most groups (not all) are looking for is more than the protection, but OVERT GOV control of a womans reproductive organs.

I might think differently if pro-life groups were also pro-contraception (as my pro-life conservative aunt was)

[Jamie Kelly]

I just jerked off, Oh my! A thousand murders?

If your sperm count is that pathetically low, then you won't have any trouble in the accidental-pregnancy department.
Hell, I regularly spray the ceiling with millions of the little critters.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Hmmm.....

It never occurred to me to count them.

[Alice Bowie]

Hey Matt

Will u b willing u pay the welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, daycare, for anyone who DOESN'T want to have an abortion.

U will never b pregnant...AND R COMPLETELY UN-QUALIFIED TO STATE an Opinion on THIS.

[whit]

"The pro life people could care less about life, they just want to control womens bodies. It ia all part of an organized, multicentury long hierarchical patriarchy. "

is this feministing.com or reason.com?

spare me the women's studies 101 rhetoric.

and i'm pro-choice btw. you're still full of it.

[Fish Tacos]

I don't care about abortion -- either way. Abortion, like gay marriage, is just another pointless wedge issue.

[Alice Bowie]

1 in 5 pregnancies end in abortion in U.S.

If u wanna bring back the coat hanger, the safe cracker, and the alley way butcher...out-law abortion at the federal level !!!

[Jamie Kelly]

Alice Bowie,

I LIKE ur styl of TYPING TO MAKE ur points. it is VERY E-FECtive.

[DavidS]

Alice - Ron Paul doesn't want to outlaw abortion at the federal level, he wants it outlawed at the state level. That's a big difference. Or something.

[J sub D]

Life begins when the woman becomes pregnant.

Matt (and Vermont Gun Owner if yoiu're still here) -
From here -
12 days or so after conception: The blastocyst has started to produce hormones which can be detected in the woman's urine. This is is the event that all (or almost) all pro-choice groups and almost all physicians (who are not conservative Christians) define to be the start of pregnancy. If instructions are followed exactly, a home-pregnancy test may reliably detect pregnancy at this point, or shortly thereafter.[my emphasis]

Going with that definition, emergency contraception (morning after pill) would be OK. I'm just trying to get definitions down here, lest the discussion devolve into name-calling. I may be too late for that. 😉

[Jamie Kelly]

Get your abortion within the first trimester.
Other than that, fuck you, you're having the kid. And if you do get an abortion after that, we'll throw your ass in the slammer.
Got it, you stupid skirts?
Jamie has spoken.

[Alice Bowie]

Alice - Ron Paul doesn't want to outlaw abortion at the federal level, he wants it outlawed at the state level. That's a big difference. Or something.

REALLY ???

Right 2 LIFErs want ABORTION 2-END @ ALL LEVELs. They'll settle 4 state level 2-day. 2-Morrow...wait and c.

[dhex]

I had some Aztec Trail Mix earlier though to tide me over.

Original Sufferin' Succotash!

No, it means the area of Ireland outside the control of the King of England. You see, after the Norman Conquest...ah, fuck it.

and you call yourself a pedant? man...kids these days.

i think my whole problem with natural rights (or natural law, etc) is that they're so easily abridged. as far as social fictions go, though, it's a top-notch idea. it seems to avoid some (but not all) of the pitfalls associated with other social fictions (like the social contract).

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

I don't know fish taco,

When you read The National Review and their concerns about the brown hordes and mud peoples out re-producing european descended folks, and certain presidential candidates saying the immigration problems are all caused because of abortion of potential low paid worker types (yes one really said that, do you know who?) you kinda see that maybe, just maybe, having a whole bunch of baby making machines running overtime just like in the good ole days, might be central to the modern republican world view?

Maybe?

[J sub D]

Jamie,

The pro-choicers now hate you. The pro-lifers do also. I'd expand that window to about 5 months based on nervous system development. We could likely have a rational discussion on the issue.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

DavidS,

Wow, so if I read you right, it's just like slavery?

State's rights and all that, dontcha' ya know.

Does Ron Paul also believe that the states can pre-empt freedom of speech and ownership of guns?

Is he consistent on that point?

[Jamie Kelly]

J sub D,
Fair enough.
Once the fucking thing has a nervous system, fuck you, you're keeping the kid.
Got it, you stupid skirts?
Jamie has re-spoken.

[DavidS]

Ron Paul:

Legislatively, we should focus our efforts on building support to overturn Roe v. Wade. Ideally this would be done in a fashion that allows states to again ban or regulate abortion. State legislatures have always had proper jurisdiction over issues like abortion and cloning; the pro-life movement should recognize that jurisdiction and not encroach upon it. The alternative is an outright federal ban on abortion, done properly via a constitutional amendment that does no violence to our way of government.

[Lamar]

A surefire way to kill any abortion thread is to highlight the fact that pro-lifers call abortion murder, then advocate for murder when the father is related to the mother or a criminal.

[Enonesoch]

There are those who believe life begins at conception. There are those who believe life beings at birth. Who is to say? That is Dr. Paul point. I feel one way, you feel differently so how are we to solve such a predicament? Like Dr. Paul, I feel is can only be resolved at the local level. A blanket decision by the Federal Government takes your belief and my belief away. Let us discuss the issue with our neighbors, friends and family in public forums and make the appropriate decision based on our common views. I believe for Dr. Paul it is very much a Legal issue as much as a Moral issue. Considering he could be sued for harming a fetis, or that you and I could go to jail for an accident involving the death of a fetus.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Interesting thing too, most christians believed it wasn't a "baby" until the quickening (putting Jamie square on the spot of a really conservative view).

Oddly enough, you didn't hear that much from most christians about abortion until the pill came out. Which they also opposed. Funny that.

[DavidS]

Does Ron Paul also believe that the states can pre-empt freedom of speech and ownership of guns?

No - because they're constitutionally protected rights.

[dhex]

ok now we need a "father's rights" posting in 3...2...1.... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(preemptive response: don't want to pay for a kid? don't ejaculate in her!)

[Anon]

The cake is a lie?

[whit]

-"Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy"

-"I wasn't sure at first whether you were satirizing the pro-choice position, but that made me laugh out loud. Well done."

scarily, there is some rumbling among some feminists that logic IS a construct of the male way of thinking, and is thus a sexist concept. this is simialr to the nimrods in race studies programs who claim that emphasizing concepts such as punctuality, discriminates against ethnicities that don't value that either.

specifically, empiricism is critiqued
"[T]he desire to objectify and quantify," says Duran, is related to a certain position that can be labeled as male objectification, and it is also clearly linked historically to the overview of the Vienna Circle, which emphasized correspondence rules, deductive certainty, empirical tightness, and so forth"

[dhex]

I feel one way, you feel differently so how are we to solve such a predicament? Like Dr. Paul, I feel is can only be resolved at the local level. A blanket decision by the Federal Government takes your belief and my belief away.

this really just kicks the belief taking away from the feds to the locals.

why not do it county by county?

[fyodor]

Over halfway to taxtix's predictions of 300 posts!

Go thread! Go thread!

[The Wine Commonsewer]

you didn't hear that much from most christians Catholics about abortion until the pill came out. Which they also opposed

There, fixed that for you.

[whit]

"Oddly enough, you didn't hear that much from most christians about abortion until the pill came out. Which they also opposed. Funny that."

"they?"

some did, some didn't. some jews did, some didn't. some atheists did, some didn't. saying or implying that christians uniformly did not support the pill is ahistorical generalization.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

DavidS,

Thanks!

Good to know that Ron Paul believes that he can make medical decisions for my family.

Actually, I knew that, which is why I stopped liking him as a politician.

Can't help it, Like George Washington, I think med decisions about someones body, belongs with the someone, and not the gov (someones being anyone without an umbilical chord, so no matrix candidates in pods either)

[Tony]

To MLK:

The "law of the land" is not, nor should it ever have been, written by the courts. The law of the land is supposed to be written by Congress and reviewed by the courts. The truth is that abortion may be curtailed if it became an issue for lawmakers to decide, but it would not be eliminated for the minority of procedures that are nescessary for the health of women, or victims of rape and incest. Instead of promoting this birth-control safety net, we should be promoting the wisdom of choosing one of the many preventative measures of birth control, and accepting that a true "choice" includes adoption and being a parent. Rather than protest the promotion of these choices as undermining abortion, look at them as equaly valid options.

[DavidS]

Every Sperm...

I too am a little confused by the sharp Federal/State divide in Paul's thinking.

Presumably ending the 'war on drugs' means ending the federal war on drugs.

State law would ensure that most of the currently illegal drugs remain illegal.

[Reinmoose]

I agree that it is a wedge issue, and I don't see how people can vote strictly on this issue. Election cycles start out being about a lot of things, but in the end it's
"He's for killing babies!"
"He's black!"
"He wants to take away a woman's right to choose!"
"He's a socialist"
"He's rich!"

Personally, I'm pro-life if it were to ever come down to a personal decision, but I view abortions that other people have as more of something sad than as a crime.

[whit]

"Can't help it, Like George Washington, I think med decisions about someones body, belongs with the someone, and not the gov "

i do too.

and im pro-choice

but #1. a fetus is distinct from somebody else's body. it's DEPENDANT, but it is not THEIR body. one can be pro-choice without believing the (imo a simplifcation at best, lie at worst) idea that abortion is merely about a woman's control over her body. it's about a woman's control over her body AND a fetus.

#2 while i wish govt. would get out of legislating our bodies, they certainly haven't in other areas. we can't sell our organs, go to unlicensed doctors, take whatever drugs we want, prostitute ourselves (except in certain jurisdictions, etc.)

i think we SHOULD have control over our bodies, but most pro-choicers don't take the argument to consistent extremes and support this kind of stuff.

note that many pro-choicers are even against women getting breast implants etc. many don't think ThAT should be a choice.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

why not do it county by county?

You mean like zoning and building codes?

[Jamie Kelly]

Over halfway to taxtix's predictions of 300 posts! Go thread! Go thread!

That post doesn't count. Nor does TaxTix's prediction. Nor does this one.
Subtract three.

[dhex]

this is simialr to the nimrods in race studies programs who claim that emphasizing concepts such as punctuality, discriminates against ethnicities that don't value that either.

well, to be certain, some cultures don't. my best friend is colombian, which means i'm going to have to drag him to his own fucking wedding later this year because of what, at least if you're an "intercultural business training specialist" is called "polychronic time orientation" as opposed to my more rigid "monochronic time orientation."

i.e. if the movie is at 6, i'm there at 5:45. if the movie is at 6, he's there at 6:20. if you've done business in south america (and elsewhere) you've encountered this.

[Tony]

Dhex:
What if the father wants to pay for the kid? I've been there, but my choice didn't matter.

[ixeian]

Okay, everybody. Why some people come down on the anti-choice side of the abortion issue is beyond me. What part of individual bodily autonomy do you not understand? For those who say it is not just a matter of womens bodies and that it is complicated, esp. the women: Fuck you and stop making choices for other people.

Ditto to the "sex has consequences" crowd. Amanda and other feminist bloggers (yes, I read them and agree with them on some things) have you pegged: Plain old right-wing misogynists who want to assert control over womens bodies and choices. Sexual freedom is a good thing.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

whit,

Actually sorta, but at a closer look, not really.

I was raised in the Wisconsin Evangilecal Lutheran Synod, a fairly conserative org.

Most serious pro-life orgs, church's or not, have very similar lines between attitude towards abortion as towards birth control.

Easily confirmed by google.

Pro-choice, usually means pro-contractption, pro-life, usually means "abstinence" or anti-contraception (not unlike the Catholic Church).

It's been a fairly consistent line over the past forty years.

[mk]

Go thread! Go thread!

Bodies by the Sex Pistols is a great punk song.

too soon?

[Akston]

The debate over abortion is a distraction. We're arguing over deck chairs and steerage is already submerged.

[whit]

"Okay, everybody. Why some people come down on the anti-choice side of the abortion issue is beyond me. What part of individual bodily autonomy do you not understand? For those who say it is not just a matter of womens bodies and that it is complicated, esp. the women: Fuck you and stop making choices for other people."

except it's not just about a woman's body. it's about a womans body AND the dependant fetus. personally, i am pro-choice. i think the fetus' "rights" are generally subordinate to the woman.

but it's simply a lie to say that abortion is just about body autonomy.

drug use, prostitution, plastic surgery, hormone therapy, etc. ARE

abortion is not.

i'm pro-choice, but i'm not gonna spout the lie that abortion is just a woman exerting control over her body. a fetus is a dependent being, but it's another "entity" apart from her body, yet dependant - whether that entity is a person, a humanbeing, a mass of cells, etc. is tangential to that fact.

[Reinmoose pretending to agree]

What part of individual bodily autonomy do you not understand?

Yeah! Once that fetus or whatever that THING is is removed from my body, it can do whatever the f*** it wants!

[Brandybuck]

Abortion must be legal thru all nine month right up till the cord is cut.

A baby is most definitely alive, breathing and crying by the time the umbilical cord is cut. Killing a baby after it has been born is murder. Period.

[DavidS]

Polychronic time orientation. That's great, Dhex. Next time some sperm-murdering wanker is complaining about me being late, I can sue them in some UN court for infringing my human rights.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Every, I know a lot of Christians. I know exactly none that are against birth control. Good Gravy, even my nutcase psychotic rabid Pro-Lifer sister who's been arrested five times is okay with BC.

I even know Catholics who aren't against birth control. Course those guys are California Catholics and eat red meat on Friday as well, so maybe it don't count.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

MK, you funny guy.

[whit]

"I was raised in the Wisconsin Evangilecal Lutheran Synod, a fairly conserative org.

Most serious pro-life orgs, church's or not, have very similar lines between attitude towards abortion as towards birth control."

i know (and knew back in the day) plenty of pro-choice and pro-life christians. both sides.

very few pro-lifers were against birth control (the pill, rubbers, etc.)

"Easily confirmed by google."

pr monty python...
"the difference between us and them papists is we can use little rubber things on our john-thomases if we want to " (from memory as best i could).

"Pro-choice, usually means pro-contractption, pro-life, usually means "abstinence" or anti-contraception (not unlike the Catholic Church)."

no, it doesn't.

"It's been a fairly consistent line over the past forty years"

not really. it is true that most who are against contraception are ALSO pro-life.

it is hardly true that the latter = the former, whether among christian pro-lifers, or atheist pro-lifers, or jewish pro-lifers, or whatever.

but the specific reference was to christian ones

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

whit,

That is the central contention.

No longer believing in sky-faeries as my parents did, I need science.

And the science for me, just can't make a bundle of cells a person, or even seperate.

Back to the traditional christian (before Buckley? BB?), I can believe that there may be a point between conception and birth that we are actually dealing with a two humans rather than one. But it sure is only one by science, in the first trimester. And prolly a chunk of the second. Now the third, that I can easily entertain.

But, where are the pro-life orgs that are for contraception? Without them it is hard to believe this is about little humans. If the pro-lifers are defending human life rather than EXCLUSIVELY attempting to extend government control, why aren't more pro-contraception?

[dhex]

What if the father wants to pay for the kid? I've been there, but my choice didn't matter.

discuss prior to unloading the troops from the bus?

hey that kind of rhymes, which seems inappropriate in this context.

i tend to fall on the "it's her body and all you did was jizz" side of things but i have been what some might call ULTRA FUCKING PARANOID about those ladies who received the healing light of my immaculate substance, as it were. (hair doesn't count)

[mk]

Also, you know who doesn't have abortions? Illegal immigrants that's who.
Also Also, all those fetuses who were aborted eighteen years ago and beyond were all probably people that would have voted for Ron Paul.Isn't that a bitch?

they just want to control womens bodies

The Cathars were a highly matriarchal society in medieval France. The Albigensian crusade of 1209 was a mass Papal enforced abortion.

[whit]

"I even know Catholics who aren't against birth control. Course those guys are California Catholics and eat red meat on Friday as well, so maybe it don't count."

it's not the red meat you gotta worry about. it's the GREEN MEAT

[Warren]

dhex,
I encountered the ma?ana attitude from South American exchange students. My theory is that, their government is so corrupt that one's individual industry is of no consequence. If you produce anything someone will just steal it. If you don't produce anything, you can still steal it.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

The debate over abortion is a distraction. We're arguing over deck chairs and steerage is already submerged.

Brilliantly said. Akston.

And if steerage is submerged those immigrants down there ain't got much of a chance neither.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

it's the GREEN MEAT

Soylent Green Meat?

[ducks a rotten tomato]

Come on, I'm doing my part to boost the comments to 300.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

The Wine Commonsewerer,

You've really never met any catholics?

WOW

Talk about sheltered.

I suppose you don't remember the news stories (talked about right here on H n R) concerning Pharmacists who were fired for refusing to dispense the regular pills? About those same pharmacists seeking state protection after the pharmacies they worked for fired them for non-performance?

Sheltered?

[mk]

Oh, and stop making fun of Rick Santorum's crying daughter Dammit!

[logicprobe]

"As a pro-choice person I would say that any non-viable entity without a functioning brain of any significance is not a life."

So I guess abortion is OK up until about age 18, right? I've known many teenagers who have no functioning brain and certainly aren't viable on their own...

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Speaking of idle comments designed to push the numbers,

What ever happened to all the Catholics who went to Purgatory for eating meat on Fridays when I was a kid?

[ducks Crimethink's Fist of Death]

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

The Wine Commonsewer,

I think they were in Limbo when it got closed by the pope, I have no idea where they are squatting now.

[Nick]

But it is the purple meat that oppresses womyn!

[dhex]

The Cathars were a highly matriarchal society in medieval France. The Albigensian crusade of 1209 was a mass Papal enforced abortion.

actually, i hate to step on your dick here mk (metaphorically) or perhaps to even ABORT your point (ha ha get it?) but the cathars were anything but friendly towards the concept of pregnancy. why? because they were gnostics, and gnostics hate the fucking body like fat kids hate exercise.

they were nicer about women than catholic doctrine at the time, to be sure.

[whit]

"No longer believing in sky-faeries as my parents did, I need science."

so do i

"And the science for me, just can't make a bundle of cells a person, or even seperate."

i don't want to get all semantical, but the issue is not necessarily personhood.

it comes down to this (for me at least). does the "right" of a fetus to live supersede the right of a carrier to abort it. i think, generally yes.

you don't have to believe it's a person. frankly, some have made the argument that a newborn baby is not a person in the self-actualized sense. i don't think that gives us the right to kill it.

it's a balancing test.

"Back to the traditional christian (before Buckley? BB?), I can believe that there may be a point between conception and birth that we are actually dealing with a two humans rather than one. But it sure is only one by science, in the first trimester. And prolly a chunk of the second. Now the third, that I can easily entertain."

it's hard for science OR law to draw bright lines in many cases. but we do. see: age of consent for example.

almost (not all) everybody believes you don't have the right to kill a newborn baby.

most believe you do have the right to abort a fetus 3 weeks after conception.

the relative status at various interim stages is difficult, and opinions vary.

"But, where are the pro-life orgs that are for contraception?"

to my knowledge, few pro-life orgs ADDRESS contraception. the issue they see is abortion.

" Without them it is hard to believe this is about little humans."

i know WAY too many pro-lifers to think anything else.

some of the strongest, most "pro-women" and moral people i have ever met are pro-life. they do NOT want to subjugate women. they DO NOT want to see fetuses aborted.

i am sure there are SOME who are pro-life, who are for it at least in part to subjugate women. just like im sure that there are some who are against racial quotas because they are racist. doesn't change my mind about racial quotas.

" If the pro-lifers are defending human life rather than EXCLUSIVELY attempting to extend government control, why aren't more pro-contraception?"

i really don't know where you get this? what %age of pro-lifers are against contraception ?

[mk]

The pope closed Purgatory, but it was reopened with corporate sponsorship.

It's now called Pfizertory.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Every, huh? You should re-read my post, I've met lots of Catholics. Some are OK with BC. Some aren't.

As to your second point re: pharmacists, as a libertarian I do not support government interference in a contractual agreement between an employer and an employee. Therefore, if the boss says fill the prescription and you don't, you're on the street.

However, I also do not support the State of California forcing Catholic Social Services to provide birth control pills to employees as part of it's medical insurance coverage as was praised by many libertarians. It isn't a religious issue it is an employment matter. The employer sets the rules, if you don't like 'em, take a hike.

[some dude]

Good to know that Ron Paul believes that he can make medical decisions for my family.

Abortion is not a "medical decision."

Medicine is the field of making sick people well. A pregnant woman is not sick.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Actually, more woman die from pregnancy than abortion.

For what it's worth.

[dhex]

A pregnant woman is not sick.

oh yeah smart guy?

why do they call it "morning sickness" then?

[whit]

"But it is the purple meat that oppresses womyn!"

yes. i am going to a seminar^H^H^Hovular this weekend on that very subject.

womyn and the patriarchal fascist capitalist heterosexist white chauvinist corporatist purple meat hegemony that oppresses them... a discursive study of the hermeneutics of meat

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

The Wine Commonsewer,

Ever since Papal infallacy was put forth, the popes opinion is the lay opinion. defacto. If these "catholics" you speak of think otherwise, then they are apostate and heretical.

Which is why there was so much talk about refusing the mass to pro-choice politicians in the last election.

[Monty]

I might be arguing in my spare time.

[dhex]

hey spermy look up ex cathedra and do a hundred pushups.

bring your a game or stay the fuck home, broseidon.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Funny, I only "sleep" with feminists, 'cause they are the only womyn who don't seem oppressed by the "purlpe" meat.

Sex is better if you practice it, and feminism definitely supports the conceptual practice of it.

But your mileage may differ.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

2 years in a Jesuit compound did make me punchy and prone to extreme's.

Doesn't change what they taught me.

[whit]

"Sex is better if you practice it, and feminism definitely supports the conceptual practice of it."

yea, but the repressed catholic wimmyn's are often wilder under da sheets (or in the kitchen, etc.)

just ask frank zappa.

well, he's dead, but you know what i mean.

catholic wimmyns and feminists doing their part to keep men happy!

[Minarchist]

MLK - being consistent with defending liberty puts one on what you might consider to be "all over the map" on the issues, like:

o being for a strong defense but against the Iraq war
o being strong on law and order but against the war on drugs

[whit]

"2 years in a Jesuit compound did make me punchy and prone to extreme's."

he who f*cks nuns, will later join the church - death or glory by the clash. i always liked the social distortion version best, but i digress

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Every,

they are apostate and heretical.

Of course they are. Technically. But they don't care. The difference is theory v practice.

Throwing apostate and heretic modifiers at American Catholics doesn't work much any more. Still effective in rural Latin America but in California? Not so much. Piss 'em off enough and they start going to EV Free Church and the Priests know it.

Oh sure, the priests talk the talk and don't miss an opportunity. Got a whole Pro-Life sermon last time I attended a christening at a Catholic church.

But in the end, it's Don't Ask and If Asked, Don't Tell. Cuz if you put the priest in the corner by admitting to BC use, he has to give you the boot. Or at least a counseling session.

[dhex]

Funny, I only "sleep" with feminists, 'cause they are the only womyn who don't seem oppressed by the "purlpe" meat.

man it's only purple if you squeeze it too much.

this thread has only 200 something posts.

i'm very disappointed in all of you.

[i'm trying to figure out some variation on a joke that goes something like "catholic, protestant, atheist, repressed or free-spirited, i think we can all agree that it only counts as sex if they're crying" but frankly that's just creepy.]

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Every, BTW, my Catholic Little League coach told his priest (after five boys) that he wasn't having any more kids unless the church agreed to support them.

The priest didn't agree to support them but he didn't kick the family out either.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Like Heinlein I only take seriously those folks who lie up to their own creed.

A Catholic who doesn't except the fact that the Pope is the soul source for all final pronouncements of religious laws for catholics, is the worst kind of boot licker.

If they want to disagree with the Pope. Stop being Catholic, until then....I'll view them like I view Clinton.

Folks who lie under oath.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Oh, and TWC is fine, it's a bitch to spell that whole thing out.

Still doing my part for the 300. Cuz that's more fun than working.

[Thomas]

Though right and wrong may or may not be absolute (I think it is), governments are imperfect and at best are going through a discovery process in learning to protect our rights. Centrality of government determination of right and wrong erodes that discovery process. Rights to life and property are best protected by the local state, not the federal government.

A critical and needed aspect of pro-life work, though, must be, as Paul says, to persuade the people of the nation, to create an emergent consensus.

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Live up to their own creeds, Live up...

(laughing) Freudian much?

It's been a gas kids...

See ya in the funny pages.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Every, I see your point, but they don't care. Times change. Catholics eat meat on Fridays. That was unheard of back in the old days. In fact, Fish Friday was so pervasive that every public school I attended had fish sticks in the cafeteria every got dam Friday.

I was half serious. What happened to all those Catholics who ate meat on Friday now that it's perfectly ok? Did they call them up from Hell and say: we forgive you, you may now enter the Kindom. Sorry about the long wait.

[Cesar]

There really are a lot of lapsed Catholics on here.

[Lamar]

If every sperm were sacred, there would be a prohibition against eating it on Friday. Are we at 300 yet?

[Jamie Kelly]

doing ...

[Jamie Kelly]

my part ...

[dhex]

Like Heinlein I only take seriously those folks who lie up to their own creed.

that's amazing.

both because it's an impressive typo and because i can't believe anyone would take anything a fucking science fiction author wrote seriously. that shit's not even fit for setting fetuses on fire.

(now **this** is the route to get us over 1000 comments, beyond invoking THE ANARCHRIST. COME UNTO ME, NERDS, AND SHARE YOUR SWEATY WRATH!!!!)

[Jamie Kelly]

to get ...

[Jamie Kelly]

300 posts ...

[Nick]

Let's settle this once and for all.

"God, what is your stance on abortion?"

(crickets)

[Jamie Kelly]

on this here ...

[Jamie Kelly]

thread.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Oops, didn't mean to hit submit.

And that is my point about BC. Catholics who ate meat on Friday never left the church. They changed it.

Just like all the fundies who were never allowed to go to the movies. They didn't move on to churches that allowed movies, they changed there own churches. It's not a sin for Tangerine kids to go to the movies anymore.

[Jamie Kelly]

"God, what is your stance on abortion?"

"I try not to stand on abortions. Gets all squishy between my toes."

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

(I just can't give up and do some work)

Actually Lamar I think that exact topic came up in Boston and Cardinal Law said something to the effect that as long as they came from altar boys, all was fine.

[dhex]

hey twc, what's a "tangerine kid"?

[Lamar]

An abortion walks into a bar and says, "funny thing happened on my way through the birth canal...."

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

R.Heinlein is the closest thing to god I know.

If it wasn't for him, I might have grown up thinking government was good.

[dhex]

there are worse things than a god that looks like evil walt disney i guess.

[Nick]

Jamie, that's gross. Mind if I use it?

[Alice Bowie]

We should STOP Women from carrying their OWN children in their bodies.

We should consider just incubating the entire process.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

tangerine kid

Oh sorry, that was a bit of my own lingo without context.

Tangerine is my word for a Nazarene. As you will recall from Sunday School, Jesus was a Nazarene and there is also a Protestant Sect called the Nazarene Church. The Nazarene Church at one time forbid movies as sinful (along with dancing, pool halls, circuses, smoking, and drinking alcohol. Odd given that the founder of the church smoked cigars). At one time, the Tangerines even forbade roller skating. They were always okay with coffee though.

The modern Tangerine Church has gotten over the movie ban and they also allow boys and girls to swim in the same pool without making the girls wear tee shirts over their bathing suits.

More than you wanted to know regards, TWC

[The Wine Commonsewer]

An abortion walks into a bar

Nah, never mind that's too sick.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

What's the difference between a truckload of golf balls and truck load of aborted fetuses?

Can't unload the golf balls with a pitch fork.

[Lamar]

I just couldn't let somebody be more disgusting than Lamar. Besides, I have 1,000 set-ups for the birth canal punch line.

[dhex]

More than you wanted to know regards, TWC

naw that was fucking perfect, actually.

also putting t shirts over bathing suits is really dumb cause then they get all wet and clingy.

[Sean W. Malone]

I'm quite sure I have never understood why people spend so much time back and forth on whether or not abortion is murder.

Ultimately the argument just comes down to semantics anyway doesn't it?

A. We all agree that taking a human life is the definition of murder... check.
B. We all seem to generally agree murder is something bad and accept the societally/governmentally enforced tradeoff that we won't murder anyone in exchange for not being murdered... check.
B. We all agree that an infant child can rightly be considered a life and thus falls under the category of bad, even worse than other types of murder as children are so cute and innocent... check.

The question isn't whether or not Pro-life people just want to control women, generalities aside, I'm quite convinced that's not really what it's about. Nor is it that Pro-choice people support murdering babies...

So the issue as I've always seen it simply comes down to what you define as a "human life".

Not that anyone is ever going to agree on that exactly, but why do we have to sit here and read all of this back and forth nonsense about various ideologies when the basic terms of discussion haven't been agreed upon?!

Isn't that kind of a major step everyone's glossing over?

We all agree murdering humans is wrong. We all agree rape is wrong. We all (should) agree that women (and men) should have the right make their own decisions about their bodies.

We DON'T all agree at what point a fetus becomes a human. Since that's kinda the first thing we need to establish, why again aren't we discussing that?

[Sproing]

they get all wet and clingy

nice

[Lamar]

A rabbi, priest and an abortion are playing golf....rabbi says "In my religion, we all agree that taking a human life is the definition of murder... check", and the priest says, "in my religion, we all agree that taking a human life is the definition of murder... check," and the abortion says, "what about self-defense, capital punishment, castle rule, suicide, negligence, and malpractice?"

[Anthony]

People who actually cares what the Constitution says about freedom and liberty may take notes from Ron Paul at any point. He has held his beliefs for sometime now and does not pander to one group or another. Oh no, a sincere individual, what's next... a country changed for the better.

[de stijl]

The modern Tangerine Church has gotten over the movie ban and they also allow boys and girls to swim in the same pool without making the girls wear tee shirts over their bathing suits.

Semi-related: chunky kids, don't wear t-shirts when you go swimming. Everyone knows you're chunky. You're not fooling anyone into thinking "Hey! Why is that skinny kid wearing a t-shirt when he's swimming?" Embrace your inner chunkster. Let the chunk flag fly, my little flabby brothers and sisters!

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

I vote for "life begins when ya get a nervous system". If you're multi-cellular and don't have a nervous system then you're a sponge, and sponges don't have rights.
So, that puts "not a human" back to what, about the first 5-6 weeks of "fertilized eggness"?
There, problem solved.

[de stijl]

We DON'T all agree at what point a fetus becomes a human. Since that's kinda the first thing we need to establish, why again aren't we discussing that?

Because it's unknowable.

[Lamar]

I think we can all agree that abortion should be illegal after the point in which a fetus is able to say "ouch mommy, that hurts."

[Reinmoose]

de stijl -
Guilty! I was one of those chubsters who wore a t-shirt. Although, it was more at water-parks than during actual swimming. Two different things, I guess.

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

How about the ol' Roman idea of Paterfamilias, where the father can abort any of his children right up until the day the father dies?

[Donho]

We cannot assume life begins at birth. I personally think it begins once there is brain activity. Since this is such a complicated issue it is better decided locally.

[Ayn_Randian]

Oh no, a sincere individual, what's next... a country changed for the better.

I believe that his sincerity is what has been called into question the past couple of weeks, so don't beg the question.

[Hannibal Lector]

We all agree murdering humans is wrong.

Not all of us.

Please pass the chianti and the fava beans.

[Ayn_Randian]

Embrace your inner chunkster. Let the chunk flag fly, my little flabby brothers and sisters!

Please, no.

Perhaps your "chunk flag" would best be placed at places where it's, you know, welcome, like, say, the comic book store.

😀

[The Wine Commonsewer]

A rabbi, priest and an abortion are playing golf..

With an intro like you don't need no punch line.

ROTFLMAO

[Jennifer]

Sincere question for those who are libertarian but would also like to see abortion outlawed: how, exactly, do you see an anti-abortion law being enforced without violating civil liberties even more than they already are?

Consider: The drug war has already led to proliferation of SWAT teams, Stasi-style informants, doctors afraid to give pain medication to those who desperately need it, kids encouraged to rat out their own frickin' parents. . . the civil-liberty problem with the drug war (even ignoring the whole "it's MY body and MY brain, so I'll fuck with it if I damn well please") is that there are no actual victims. So instead of cops hearing from a victim and then going out to investigate the crime, the cops have to go looking for victims and crimes. That's why they must depend on informants, and blood/urine testing, and racial profiling in "certain" neighborhoods. . . and all these civil liberties violations are to enforce a law whose presumptive rationale is "Certain people must be protected from themselves."

So how much worse do you think things will get to enforce a law whose presumptive rationale is "Oooh, someone has to save the cute and helpless little babies from those who would murder them?"

[Mr Brooks]

Please pass the chianti and the fava beans

I'll drink to that.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sometimes the Chunk Flag is to avoid sunburns.

Which reminds me that the last time Mrs TWC took some kids to the beach the chunky one nearly got third degree burns. Surprised his mom didn't call social services. Or at least ban him from our house.

[Ayn_Randian]

All I'm saying is that the embrace of the "Chunk Pride" lifestyle has led to the pandemic of muffin-related conditions, such as muffinus topinus and splittus-topis muffinus.

These are horrible afflictions and can cause blindness, nausea and vomiting in a significant portion of the male population.

[Nick]

Jennifer, I think for the pro-lifers they would be satisfied if it were simply outlawed. Then they can ignore the back alley wire hanger abortions because it is illegal and now, rather than convince people not to have abortions on the principle of moral ickyness, they can simply say, "it's illegal, now it is the police's problem." Then, when they hear on the news about someone having an abortion they can be appalled for five minutes and then go back to watching bad reality television.

I think that is the same with the War on Drugs. Some people who don't like drugs and don't like other people using drugs can simply stop worrying about trying to convince others to stop doing drugs and being all druggy and icky in their neighborhood, now they can just call the police and say, "Deal with these *criminals* so I don't have to."

And so on and so forth with prostitution, baggy pants, smoking, and (insert nanny-stater issue here).

[Reinmoose]

Malt-o-meal actually sells a cereal called "Muffin Tops," which is totally delicious despite the fact that it has like, 4 grams of fat per serving. Some friends bought it for me as an inside joke 🙂

[de stijl]

All I'm saying is that the embrace of the "Chunk Pride" lifestyle has led to the pandemic of muffin-related conditions, such as muffinus topinus and splittus-topis muffinus.

That's not Chunk Pride - that's flat-out self delusion. "These tight jeans will make me look skinny."

Fat people know what they need to wear - This!

[Lamar]

If abortion were made illegal tomorrow, the question would be whether the existence of homos in San Francisco will be enough to get cro-magnons to the polls.

[Ayn_Randian]

Reinmoose! "Muffinus Topis" is SRS BIZNESS:

More on this horrendous disease hier.

WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC EXAMPLE OF THE DISEASE!

That's not Chunk Pride - that's flat-out self delusion. "These tight jeans will make me look skinny."

Look, buddy, I know the score: you're just trying to cram this "Chunk Agenda" down the collective throat of this Christian nation! Quit trying to subvert such august institutions like marriage Playboy with your insidious perversions.

[Reinmoose]

Ayn_Randian -
I know it's a serious disease, and I was the one responsible for increasing its awareness to my friends (hence why they got me a box of the cereal).
Even a minor case of love handles can turn into a full-blown Muffin Top if not treated properly.

[dhex]

i can't believe the second photo in that wikipedia link is a blueberry muffin.

that's too mean, even for me.

[Nick]

The funniest thing about the Wikipedia Muffin Top page (besides its existence) is that it shows a muffin underneath the example picture and is so specific as to have as it's caption "A blueberry muffin." I'm glad we know it's blueberry. I wouldn't have been able to sleep otherwise.

[dhex]

i briefly thought it was an encyclopedia dramatica page but then realized there was no animated gif of muffins flying out of goatse (or whatever they're onto these days).

[Nick]

Damnit, dhex.

[Ayn_Randian]

well, you sir should know that these "Chunk Pride" FREAKS are the primary disease vector for Muffinus Topinus.

Good thing Mike Huckadizzle will put these perverts into camps for us.

[dhex]

randian, you've clearly never tenderly chewed on the supple side of a bbw.

it is soothing.

[B]

This post is the most brillian of reason's "Comment Bombs". The east coast starts knocking off work in an hour or so...I think we really have a chance to make this a 4-digit comment thread.

Don't let me down, people.

[Akston]

Life begins after you get your driver's license, so abortion should be legal up to 16. Go ahead, fling some attitude at mom. Dare ya.

[gobineau]

If abortions are outlawed, only fetuses will have guns.

[Lamar]

"God, what is your stance on abortion?"

Wide.

[dhex]

otherwise you drop them too easily.

[Pig Mannix]

@Jennifer

Sincere question for those who are libertarian but would also like to see abortion outlawed: how, exactly, do you see an anti-abortion law being enforced without violating civil liberties even more than they already are?

Not that I favor outlawing abortions, but it's silly to conflate a law with it's enforcement strategy.

Abortion was illegal in a number of states for a good long time without any of the nightmare strategies you list being put into place. Basically, it amounted to "If you're caught in the act, you're busted".

We manage to enforce laws against murder without daily visits from the police checking under the bed for bodies, thankyouverymuch.

[JayDubya]

[i]Jennifer, I think for the pro-lifers they would be satisfied if it were simply outlawed. Then they can ignore the back alley wire hanger abortions because it is illegal and now, rather than convince people not to have abortions on the principle of moral ickyness, they can simply say, "it's illegal, now it is the police's problem." Then, when they hear on the news about someone having an abortion they can be appalled for five minutes and then go back to watching bad reality television.

I think that is the same with the War on Drugs. Some people who don't like drugs and don't like other people using drugs can simply stop worrying about trying to convince others to stop doing drugs and being all druggy and icky in their neighborhood, now they can just call the police and say, "Deal with these *criminals* so I don't have to."[/i]

Well Nick, personally speaking, I don't care about drugs or prostitution in the least - do what you want with YOUR own body. And I don't watch reality TV.

I also have the same amount of sympathy for a back alley abortionist patron as I do for those that hire hitmen.

[Jennifer]

Not that I favor outlawing abortions, but it's silly to conflate a law with it's enforcement strategy. Abortion was illegal in a number of states for a good long time without any of the nightmare strategies you list being put into place. Basically, it amounted to "If you're caught in the act, you're busted". We manage to enforce laws against murder without daily visits from the police checking under the bed for bodies, thankyouverymuch.

In all sincerity: fifty or a hundred years ago I'd've maybe found that a very persuasive argument, concerning how I should expect the United States Government to behave. But the behavior of the government in regard to the drug war makes me think you're being unjustifiably optimistic.

The thing about the "murder" analogy is, cops don't even begin to investigate a murder unless they've either found a body or been told that someone is missing. In other words: they wait until they have good reason to believe a crime has been committed. But they do NOT behave thusly regarding drugs, and there's no reason to assume they'll behave thusly regarding abortions either. Since no woman will report her abortionist, and no abortionist will report his client, do you really think the cops will take a laid-back "wait and see" attitude rather than go LOOKING for people to arrest? They don't do that for drugs, but you think they'll do it for what they consider baby-murder?

[Lamar]

Heath Ledger died for the sins of all you abortionists.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

such as muffinus topinus and splittus-topis muffinus.

You mean Man Boobs and Plumber's Butt?

[de stijl]

Heath Ledger died for the sins of all you abortionists.

Weird story. I doubt he was high on anyone's dead pool list, but he was looking a little bit heroin-y lately.

[Lamar]

Re: Heath Ledger: They apparently found pills next to him. Let's called it an auto-abortion.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

More on this horrendous disease hier.

Got Dam that was funny. You'll pay for that Man.

[Pig Mannix]

@Jennifer

The thing about the "murder" analogy is, cops don't even begin to investigate a murder unless they've either found a body or been told that someone is missing. In other words: they wait until they have good reason to believe a crime has been committed. But they do NOT behave thusly regarding drugs, and there's no reason to assume they'll behave thusly regarding abortions either. Since no woman will report her abortionist, and no abortionist will report his client, do you really think the cops will take a laid-back "wait and see" attitude rather than go LOOKING for people to arrest? They don't do that for drugs, but you think they'll do it for what they consider baby-murder?

That's a good point, and to some extent, I'm in agreement.

But my point there was that a law, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily create a civil liberties jeopardy. I've seen people in here say that the drug laws are a lot more lenient now than they were 30 years ago, and technically, that's true. But realistically, in 1978 I could walk down Michigan Ave. smoking a joint, and a cop wouldn't look at me twice. Nor were SWAT teams likely to come busting into your house because you're a suspected drug dealer. I wouldn't try the Michigan Ave. stunt now, even with more lenient laws on the books.

The point of the preceding ramble being that I agree with your view that outlawing abortion or anything else creates a potential for law enforcement abuse, but that's not an automatic given.

[Jennifer]

outlawing abortion or anything else creates a potential for law enforcement abuse, but that's not an automatic given.

In our country, with its current "us noble cops versus them vile citizens" law-enforcement climate, it IS a given. Hell, a couple of years ago a Virginia state delegate actually tried introducing a law requiring any woman who suffered a miscarriage to report it to the police within 24 hours or face criminal consequences. Fortunately, the proposal was laughed out of the state house.

I suspect that if abortion were illegal, however, the law would've been considered a perfectly cromulent way to make sure none o'them vile abortion-gettin' women try to lie and claim it was a miscarriage instead. And since we're already required to sign registries when buying cold medicine, just in case somebody might use that medicine to make illegal meth, I can only begin to imagine the fun registries invented to prevent babies from being killed. Lessee--maybe registering feminine-hygiene-supply purchases, so the powers-that-be will know if pregnancy made a woman skip a month?

Sounds ludicrous, I know, but no more so than having to sign cold-medicine registries and limiting the amount of over-the-counter people with allergies are allowed to buy. And those last two examples of asininity were pulled from modern reality, not my imagination.

That's why I'd still be sincerely interested in hearing how today's anti-abortion libertarians imagine a real-world abortion ban would be enforced in this fair country of ours.

[Jennifer]

but no more so than having to sign cold-medicine registries and limiting the amount of over-the-counter people with allergies are allowed to buy

"limiting the amount of over-the-counter allergy medication people with allergies are allowed to buy"

Rrrr.

[Sean W. Malone]

"I vote for "life begins when ya get a nervous system". If you're multi-cellular and don't have a nervous system then you're a sponge, and sponges don't have rights.
So, that puts "not a human" back to what, about the first 5-6 weeks of "fertilized eggness"?
There, problem solved."

I could certainly agree with that definition - makes it easy enough then? If you need to get an abortion and won't be convinced to carry the baby to term and put it up for adoption, do so within a month or two. Beyond that, with the development of the brain & spinal chord, the fetus is now alive and has its own rights.

Pre-spine: Mom + tissue. Post-spine: Mom + Baby Human. Issue officially solved.

Now was that so hard?

[hale]

Logic is a contruction of the hierarchical patriarchy, there are other, non-linear forms of thought that are more valid. Logic is meant to oppress womyn.

I realize that Amanda is trolling, so understand that I'm not replying to this with the intention of convincing "her" otherwise. I am replying to this because this shit don't wash and there's a point to be made here.

One often hears the claim made that logic is a male invention, that science is a white construct, and that reason is a tool of oppression. I call these claims "identity epistemology" - the notion that knowledge and indeed truth are of a fundamentally different character if you're of this ethnicity or that one, of this sex or that one, of this class or that one, and so forth.

Now, understand that I'm not equating logic with knowledge; it's widely understood that logic is merely a tool for parsing and that the truth of its conclusions are dependent on its premises. I'm also not disagreeing that there exist other non-linear, propositional forms of knowledge-manufacture (for example, I would argue that art and aesthetic communication is one of these and is legitimate as such, though that topic in full is a subject for another dsicussion). What I'm taking aim at is the idea - quite patriarchal when you think about it - that logic is the sole domain of men and was created by men to dominate women.

Do any of those trafficking in this notion realize how insulting it is to women who do use logic, perhaps pride themselves on their logical talents, or who participate in science or analytic philosophy? It not only dismisses any logical or scientific claims made by a woman, if carried to its conclusion it would seek to incriminate those women as traitors. If that be the case, then Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin, Ada Lovelace,?milie du Ch?telet, Lisa Meitner - these are all traitors and abettors of the patriarchy. Likewise are Hannah Arendt, Emma Goldman and doubtless many, many of the early feminists.

I understand the desire of the humanities disciplines to detach themselves from implicitly-accepted constructs. However, this race to the bottom for authenticity, and for identity-appropriate approaches to fundamental disciplines is philosophically ludicrous, scientifically unfounded, prejudicial toward women and minorities, and serves nobody.

[grumpy realist]

One of my friends had a law professor (self-proclaimed "feminist") who tried to pull that "logic is an invention of the patriarchy and anti-woman!" schtick on her.

Never, EVER try that on a woman who went to MIT. My friend flayed her to the bones.

[Pig Mannix]

Sounds ludicrous, I know, but no more so than having to sign cold-medicine registries and limiting the amount of over-the-counter people with allergies are allowed to buy. And those last two examples of asininity were pulled from modern reality, not my imagination.

Believe me, I know all about those! But what you're describing is essentially is the fundamental social/political/legal climate currently operative in this country, not the inevitable effects of an abortion ban, per se. An abortion ban should be the least of your worries. The possible consequences you list are a symptom of a much larger problem.

That is the problem you need to be worried about!

[Every Sperm is Sacred]

Actually, strictly speaking, "Logic" is a creation of Aristotle, and even he realized it had significant flaws.

You really can't survive in a modern competitive society if you are "pro" A.

"Logic" is probably not what you think it is. If Aristotlean logic is true, than almost every piece of science we presently use is false.

Later, it became a sort of formalized dance, but rarely used.

And of course Spock completely screwed it up.

Yes, logic is a formalized way of thinking that if you really want to use, you have to give up your calculator (well, at least the advanced models).

Logic as a cute period piece dance. Great.

As anything more, no so much, it was replaced by Reason during the enlightenment phase of society.

[Pastor Mark Mitchell]

Ron Paul opposes a constitutional amendment to end all abortion. That position is not a prolife position. He holds states rights over the lives of unborn children. Shameful

[Lisa Bonet Ate No Basil]

"Frankly, I feel sad that people give that old bag any credence, whether they admire her for her pre-flip flop pro-choice stance or her post-flop pro-life stance."

... Lamar is a cock-sucker.

If anyone can regret a personal choice, it is a woman who had an abortion and later had to live with that decision. And only a God-less faggot would think otherwise.

If you do practice sodomy, my calling you those names in no way advocates any hatred toward you except that you may one day know the heartache you spoke of with such scorn. However, if you are straight, your gat ass name says otherwise.

[Lisa Bonet Ate No Basil]

Pastor Mark Mitchell,

You are on glue. Disgraceful for a man of the cloth! Say something 7X on the internet, but..

Ron paul's sponsored "Right To Life" legislation is a Constitutional ban on abortion o at least it equates abortion with murder. Then the states may decide on criminalizing it however they see fit.

[J sub D]

And I get...

[J sub D]

...#300

[Lisa Bonet Ate No Basil]

Roe didn't endorse pastor Mike Huckabee, because he made several thousands of dollars last year giving lectures to fetus-eaters at Novo Nordisk.

[J sub D]

LBANB - Don't you think it's time to consider adjusting your dosage.

[Lawrence]

Ron Paul's opposition to a constitutional amendment is not contrary to protecting life. For example, Dr. Paul's support of such bills at the "Sanctity of Life Act" would help to clarify the Constitutional rights of the unborn, specifically by clarifying that life begins at conception (strangely a notion that was well accepted before 1973, when abortion was legalized). To say that Dr. Paul holds states rights over the lives of unborn children is simply ridiculous. Please read more about Ron Paul on the issue of before you decide that he's "shameful".

[Pablo Escobar]

This isn't about abortion. It's about whether you support the Constitution, which provides no authority for the federal government (of which the Supreme Court is a branch) to legislate on abortion. In that respect, all Ron Paul supporters should welcome endorsements from pro-life activists who support federalism.

[Tacos mmm...]

...#300

How's the view from the top of this shitpile?

[Lisa Bonet Ate No Basil]

J sub D

Spoken like a condescending fuckwad of a shrink in the most Freudian tradition. Your noted lack of interrogative punctuation speaks volumes, sirrah.

[dhex]

Lisa Bonet Ate No Basil

is a fucking great screen name.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

I see you boys managed the big THREE OH OH without anymore help from yours truly.

[Lady of Liberty]

Why didn't she endorse a frontrunner like Mike Huckabee?

A: Because an endorsement for Hunk-A-Spend is not about freedom or fiscal responsibility. There has to be more than religion to draw someone in.

She used her brain.

[MJ]

Paul is right. We never needed an issue like abortion to occupy such a devisive and diversionary central position in national politics. Abortion is a serious, local issue and an example of why we have the 10th amendment. People must choose in their own communities how the community will deal with such issues. This is the freedom and the system that we are given in the constitution. These issues should not be decided by some unreachable entity far from the lives and location of people.

People mistakenly believed the American Revolution would fail. The "shot that was heard around the world" was fired by a small group and fought for freedom agains the most powerful empire on earth. It is simply unamerican to be overly concerned about the odds of winning. Too much concern for winning may lead to compromise which is alright until you wake up oneday and all values (including freedom) have been compromised away. Rather we should keep our eyes and mind set on what is right. In this way we may believe and act accordingly. I am a veteran and have always voted. I never have believed a candidate would hold the American ideal in high regard but then I heard Ron Paul. If you support Paul you are not alone please help to get the message out. If you want to know more about Dr. Ron Paul please visit:

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

[Taktix?]

CALLED IT!

Noobs...

[M]

if carried to its conclusion it would seek to incriminate those women

Those women and any who discursively link predicates to subjects. You can't even attempt to invalidate logic without employing it. Even if you mispyll wyrds.

[Jill]

Until a fetus is capable of surviving outside of the mother, it is not a person. Once it can survive outside of the mother, with the reasonable care that is legally required for children in today's world, then it has legal rights. Up until that point, it is really just another part of the woman's body. Overturning Roe Vs. Wade would be an injustice to any woman who wants to control her own body, not be controlled by those who 'know best'.

And it should be pointed out that pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. It really just does mean pro-CHOICE. A woman should have the ability to choose, and if abortion is the option that best fits her needs, then that is her right. I know several women who support the right to choose without ever contemplating the idea of abortion themselves (one of them had her first unexpected child last year, in fact).

Oh, and when you degenerate to slinging curse words back and forth, it completely invalidates whatever you had to say to begin with. If that is the only thing you can think of to respond with, you obviously have too little imagination/mental capacity to come up with a valid argument in the first place. Come on, clean it up people.

[Amber Amerson]

i dont believe in the right to have abortions. The matter of it says that woman take advantage of it and use it to the full extent that if they do something stupid then they always have a backup method. Instead of making a realistic choice and giving it up to someone who may love it and cherish it you kill it. Go down to georgia and visit an abortion clinic. They kill babies who have heartbeats, and fingers, and toes. There not sponges, or a cluster of cells. There real babies. That in itself is murder not only to that baby but too your soul. How you can live with yourself taking a pill and a few hours later feeling that babies heart beat start to slow and then stop. While it moves inside you. You know what i was 18 when i had my first child and it never hurt anyone for me to have him. he's the best thing in my life. Dont get me wrong i do think there are situations that abortion would be the best for the fetus and the mother, but the way people view it, it's just an escape route from the inevitable truth.

[Carol Shaffron]

Proponents of abortion claim that simply because you don't see the baby in the womb he or she is not a real person. Who can see their brains in their heads? Maybe they don't have one? Maybe their brains are dead nothings?

When I was stupid I murdered my baby in my womb. Not only did it royally screw up my hormones and emotional stability, but it also exacerbated the depression I already suffered from. And just recently the Spirit of God reached down in the depths of my souls and gave my murdered child a voice screaming, "NO! NO!! NO! over and over and over and over and over for I don't know how long. Don't tell me life doesn't begin at conception.

The murdering of innocent babies who have no voice to speak for themselves is going to be stopped if God has to send fire from heaven on abortion clinics. Like when Cain killed his brother Abel his blood cried out from the ground these babies' blood is screaming from our ground. Abortion proponents have brought a curse on America-denying our country the gifts God has sent us. My daughter, Rebekah that I murdered when I was stupid is a dancer who would have brought immense enjoyment to the world. I've seen her dancing in heaven. And if you don't have eyes to see in the spirit, you don't need to mock those of us who do. But then, go ahead because you're only cursing your own self.

[Louis Vuitton 1904 Monogram Be]

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