Civil Rights

In Honor of MLK Day

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From a sermon delivered by Martin Luther King on April 30, 1967:

My third reason…grows out of my experience in the ghettos of the North over the last three years–especially the last three summers. As I have walked among the desperate, rejected, and angry young men, I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action; for they ask and write me, "So what about Vietnam?" They ask if our nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without first having spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of the hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence I cannot be silent.

Been a lot of applauding over the last few years. They applauded our total movement; they've applauded me. America and most of its newspapers applauded me in Montgomery. And I stood before thousands of Negroes getting ready to riot when my home was bombed and said, "We can't do it this way." They applauded us in the sit-in movement–we nonviolently decided to sit in at lunch counters. The applauded us on the Freedom Rides when we accepted blows without retaliation. They praised us in Albany and Birmingham and Selma, Alabama. Oh, the press was so noble in its applause, and so noble in its praise when I was saying, "Be nonviolent toward Bull Connor"; when I was saying, "Be nonviolent toward Jim Clark." There's something strangely inconsistent about a nation and a press that will praise you when you say, "Be nonviolent toward Jim Clark," but will curse and damn you when you say, "Be nonviolent toward little brown Vietnamese children."

Full text here. King had more than one worthy dream.

NEXT: Give Them An Inch

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  1. St Martin was a world class philanderer who beat up his paramours (‘non-violence’ didn’t apply in all spheres I guess).

    He was a flagrant plagiarist with a phony doctorate. He replaced forced segregation in a few states with forced integration in all states.

    And he was a dedicated socialist.

    What a guy. He probably deserves two holidays.

  2. And the dredges are certainly going to come out of the woodwork on this one.

    The anarcho-terrorist wannabes should take a note out the page of Dr. King: People are going to react to ugly extremism with ugly extremism.

  3. The Ron Paul Political Report

    …and the asshole of the year award goes to:

  4. Money, not bombs. MLK moneybomb for Dr. Paul: https://www.ronpaul2008.com/donate/

  5. Boring. Old news, just like the newsletters.

  6. The Ron Paul Political Report

    …and the asshole of the year award goes to:

    To people who relate unpleasant and unpopular truths?

  7. I didn’t say the person in question was right or wrong, I just said he/she was an asshole…

  8. Jesse,

    I am not sure of the first comment is a true quote from the RP letters. Anyone curious reading this may think they are. If a quote is inaccurate, please remove the comment.

  9. To people who relate unpleasant and unpopular truths?

    Do you just blurt out “You’re an ugly SOB” to every person who isn’t all that attractive?

    No? I wonder why that is?

  10. No? I wonder why that is?

    Actually, he does.

  11. In case I didn’t make myself clear, adults (or those who mimic them) generally know when it is and is not appropriate to blurt out “Philandering wife-beating pedophiliac socialist!”

    That time is never, unless you see it relevant to an intellectual discussion.

    Which it never is.

  12. Actually, he does.

    Well, I don’t see where diarrhea of the mouth is a positive quality trait, but maybe that’s just me.

  13. I was among the first to bring you news, about a year ago, that the Rev Martin Luther King plagiarized his doctoral dissertation…

    We know that King was a Marxist and a world-class adulterer. But there is yet another charge, and this one appears in black columnist Carl Rowan’s new book…

    While Rowan was head of the U.S. Information Agency under LBJ, he found out about the FBI bugging of King’s multifarious sexual activities.

    Documented on tape: a sexual relationship between King and his fellow Christian minister, Ralph David Abernathy. See the Rowan book for the exact words, which I cannot bring myself to quote.

    Am I glad I voted in Congress against an expensive federal holiday for this man.

  14. Do you just blurt out “You’re an ugly SOB” to every person who isn’t all that attractive?

    No? I wonder why that is?

    Why? Because usually it isn’t necessary – most people already know if they aren’t attractive. On the other hand I don’t pretend or help anyone else to pretend that they’re a beauty queen when they aren’t, either; it’s unfair to those who are attractive.

  15. Remember back, lo those many moons ago, when relevant intellectual discussion persisted on these threads?

    Unintentional side-effect of the Paul presidential run: Reason is becoming the Free Republic of libertarianism…

  16. Documented on tape: a sexual relationship between King and his fellow Christian minister, Ralph David Abernathy

    I had no idea MLK was teh gey. Maybe more of a “I’ll fuck anything that moves” type? Martin Luther “Frank Booth” King?

  17. I was looking forward to the time when the Ron Paul campaign didn’t matter anymore, but now that we’re there, I guess I can start looking forward to the time when Ron Paul’s supporters realize that his campaign doesn’t matter anymore.

    Nevada’s over guys! …’can we start talking about whatever without it being about Ron Paul now?!

  18. @ Other Matt:

    Actually, he does.

    To whom were you refering?

  19. That time is never, unless you see it relevant to an intellectual discussion.

    An appropriate comparison for Reason readers would be if every post that mentioned Thomas Jefferson spurred dozens of comments about how Jefferson was just a “racist, slave-owning, hypocritical adulterer.” Which, of course, he was, and which doesn’t make his writings on individual liberty any less compelling (even if he was inconsistent about actually applying these beliefs).

    But what the hell, watching inbred Stormfront thugs desperately try to be relevant is always hilarious, at least for about fifteen minutes until the gag reflex kicks in.

  20. An appropriate comparison for Reason readers would be if every post that mentioned Thomas Jefferson spurred dozens of comments about how Jefferson was just a “racist, slave-owning, hypocritical adulterer.”

    I don’t know about dozens, but it usually spurs a few – especially in other forums.

  21. how Jefferson was just a “racist, slave-owning, hypocritical adulterer.”

    Also don’t forget that Jefferson but anti-slavery language in the Declaration of Independence, only to have it removed in congressional congress…

  22. Even [Martin Luther King’s] ballyhooed ‘non-violence’ was a tactic. He wanted to take power like Castro did, “but a violent revolution on the part of American blacks would find no sympathy and support from the white population.” So he adopted non-violence as a “strategy for change, a tactical program.”

    The official line among some conservatives and libertarians is that the civil rights movement started out well, but went astray after King’s death. In fact, it was bad from the beginning, never seeking the mere removal of Jim Crow laws, which would have been legitimate, but forced integration and wealth redistribution.

    In 1998 when I ran for president on the Libertarian Party ticket, I was berated for hours by LP members because I had refused to vote, while in Congress, for a Martin Luther King national holiday.

    I didn’t know then about his plagiarism, but the rest of King’s crimes were clear. J Edgar Hoover once called him ‘the most dangerous man in America’. Who could have known the danger would continue after his death and threaten to strangle our culture?

  23. On the other hand I don’t pretend or help anyone else to pretend that they’re a beauty queen when they aren’t, either; it’s unfair to those who are attractive.

    An repeating ugly rumors and/or ugly truths about a person is relevant to the discussion why again?

    Some people don’t understand what ad hominem really means.

  24. I’d just like to point out that it shouldn’t matter what the Ron Paul Report says anymore.

    …it shouldn’t matter to his supporters, and it shouldn’t matter to his detractors. It’s so over.

    Over.

  25. I had no idea MLK was teh gey. Maybe more of a “I’ll fuck anything that moves” type? Martin Luther “Frank Booth” King?

    Eraserhead is in theatres (here’s one in Grand Rapids) in March.

  26. Ayn_Randian,

    Some people don’t understand what ad hominem really means.

    Why don’t you go back and re-read that 2000 + post thread that you participated in over Christmas – and then come back and explain what ad hominem means? When you finish that you can also explain “psychologizing” as used by Rand.

  27. Meanwhile, the whole world is watching how we do tomorrow in fundraising, on a day dedicated to the memory of Martin Luther King, the great champion of non-violence at home, peace abroad, and civil disobedience against tyrannical government.

    Please make your most generous donation http://www.ronpaul2008.com/donate/. We can’t let this movement be stopped, nor slowed.

  28. I have to admit I would like to see Raimondo come back and rave on about a libertarian backlash. …just for laughs.

    But other than that, it’s so over.

  29. I had heard the rumors of King’s extra-marital affairs. But what’s this about getting violent with these women? Is that from any legimate source.

    In any case, he was a flawed man, yet, he was also a very heroic man. His flaws don’t make him any greater (as some actually contend) but I don’t think they can take away from his basic message and movement.

  30. There is literally no depth to which racists won’t sink to discredit black leaders.

    You can tell how much they love liberty by the way they quote J. Edgar Hoover.

  31. Whoa, how’d that happen?

  32. You can tell how much they love liberty by the way they quote J. Edgar Hoover.

    Rudy Giuliani is the philosophical heir to J. Edgar Hoover, even down to the crossdressing.

  33. The Ron Paul Political Report | January 21, 2008, 7:10am = Edweirdooo troll job???

  34. I had heard the rumors of King’s extra-marital affairs. But what’s this about getting violent with these women? Is that from any legimate source.

    I believe that would be from Ralph Abernathy’s autobiographical account of life with King.

    On the day he was shot, he at least pushed down one woman while another paramour was present.

    Whether he abused women to the point of severe bruises or black eyes etc I do not know. I did not read that book.

    He befriended homosexual marxist Bayard Rustin and is accused of being bisexual. Whether there is any credibility to his having sex with young teen or preteen boys I do not know.

    It is well documented he often enjoyed prostitutes.

    While not damning in themselves, kind of disturbing for a man of God. His supporters say that these affairs gave him the “energy he needed” for his work.

  35. Not only is today in honor of MLK, it is also in honor of the (exactly) 1 year left of GWB! A very good day indeed. But next year is going to be way way better!

  36. Unless of course Rudy, Huck, McCain, Romney, Fred, Paul, Obama, Clinton, Edwards, or Kucinech wins the election.

  37. @ ali
    Don’t be so sure that GWB, et al, will just go away.

  38. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
    In 1967 I was preparing to go to Vietnam, and my mindset was to be prepared to kill little brown Vietnamese children if need be. Thus what MLK said, which Jesse quoted, escaped my attention.
    Now that I’m older, I hope I’m wiser. I’m a peaceful anarchist who loves everyone.
    MLK made the mistake most people make–even most here in this odd little place, H&R: He believed government was reformable, and even capable to doing good.

    Ruthless

  39. these affairs gave him the “energy he needed” for his work.

    Man! I sure do feel his pain – I just don’t know what I would have done without Monica and all that energy she used give me. (and my seegar.) 😉

  40. VM | January 21, 2008, 9:37am | #

    The Ron Paul Political Report | January 21, 2008, 7:10am = Edweirdooo troll job???”

    “In 1998 when I ran for president on the Libertarian Party ticket,”

    didn’t dunderoo run back then?

  41. Not to address the merits or anything.

    There’s something strangely inconsistent about a nation and a press that will praise you when you say, “Be nonviolent toward Jim Clark,” but will curse and damn you when you say, “Be nonviolent toward little brown Vietnamese children.”

    A foolish consistency, etc.

    Not to mention this presumes that we were intentionally targeting Vietnamese children as a matter of policy.

    He is essentially advocating a pacifist position here, arguing that you cannot consistently claim that non-violence is appropriate in some situations if you do not claim that it is inappropriate in all situations.

  42. I find this holiday and all the flowery rhetoric that surrounds it – getting boring. King’s dreams of a peaceful, tolerant society have not come to pass totally. We are getting more tolerant, at least when it comes to the older racial & ethnic classification, but the empire will never be peaceful.

  43. Ken Schultz,

    Who died and made you the arbiter of what matters and what doesn’t? If you’re saying it doesn’t matter because he’s not going to win the nom, well, it hasn’t mattered at any time — there was no way that was going to happen.

    Seriously, there’s enough sanctimoniousness here about dropping the subject of Ron Paul to choke Monica Lewinsky. Some of us are still interested, and those of you who aren’t are free to skip to the next thread or the next comment.

  44. In 1998 when I ran for president on the Libertarian Party ticket

    There was a presidential election in 1998? Where the heck were you?

  45. enough sanctimoniousness here

    Crimethink, I can’t believe you spelled that right – damn, you’re good. 🙂

  46. R C Dean,

    King’s point, I think, was that a lot of the people praising him for nonviolence were doing so only because they were afraid of the people he stood in front of. Their admiration for nonviolence in his narrowly specific case amounted to “nonviolence toward me, please; violence toward whomever else doesn’t matter, just please for the love of principle don’t hurt me.”

  47. King never wished for a society where individual liberty flourished, he believed in group rights. You don’t think he would have been at the forefront of supporters of affirmative action, hate crimes legislation, etc.. Please. The mans words were nice – his policy perscriptions would not have been. That being said I hope his rhetoric, not his actual policy preferences, survive well into the next century. Now lets all enjoy the day off and talk about something interesting, not some fading 60s icon. LOL

  48. “Who died and made you the arbiter of what matters and what doesn’t?”

    Grandpa Shultz.

    Just before he went, he said, “It’s all up to you now.”

    “Some of us are still interested, and those of you who aren’t are free to skip to the next thread or the next comment.”

    And some of us are weary of everything being about Ron Paul. Some of us, for instance, have opinions of MLK that are completely independent of anything having to do with Ron Paul.

    Some of us hardly ever think about Ron Paul at all!

  49. Some of us are still interested, and those of you who aren’t are free to skip to the next thread or the next comment.

    crimethink,

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not wholly uninterested in the Ron Paul stuff. I think the disdain has come from the trend on H&R lately, illustrated as follows*:

    Thread about Baseball/steriods?

    3 posts on topic
    276 posts about the newsletters

    Thread on no-knock raids?

    5 posts on topic
    342 posts about Paul’s immigration position

    Thread on a slain civil rights leader who might not be the perfect human ever to live?

    2 posts on topic
    (soon to be) 266 posts on Paul’s newsletters

    Anyone see a developing trend here?

    And as far as King’s faults, do recall that Ghandi wrote some anti-black literature during his time in South Africa. Wrong? Yes. Wrong enough to discredit his immense contribution to humanity? No fucking way.

    *The numbers are courtesy of the Taktix? Hyperbole Institute, 2008, all rights reserved…

  50. I’m probably going to get flamed for saying this, but this has to be the stupidest federal holiday out there. Martin Luther King did some good things, but to have him be the only individual in American history to have a federal holiday in his honor is totally disproportionate.

  51. You must admit if all libertarians were as tenacious as the mighty clone army of Ron Paul supporters we’d run the universe!!!! I hope that spirit remains after this election.

  52. Hey, Crimethink – got a match? 🙂

  53. And no, I’m not just bitter that I don’t get today off. 😉

  54. Taktix?, I’ve told you a million times not to exaggerate.

  55. Jesus has 2 federal holydays.

  56. Nice, brotherben!

    crimethink | January 21, 2008, 10:26am | #

    I’m probably going to get flamed for saying this, but this has to be the stupidest federal holiday out there. Martin Luther King did some good things, but to have him be the only individual in American history to have a federal holiday in his honor is totally disproportionate.

    Then you should congratulate the good people of New Hampshire, who celebrate “Civil Rights Day” instead.

    I think it’s very progressive of them to also mark the contributions of Elijah Muhammed, Malcom X, Bayard Rushtin and Socialist Party, and Jesse Jackson.

  57. brotherben, contrary to the campaign news, Jesus was not an “individual in American history.” Well, at least there’s no consensus about that, as far as I know, outside the Mormons.

    Anyway, make of this what you will: A teacher/scholar-friend who a few years ago had occasion to tour schools across the US visited many elementary-school classrooms where he would tell the children stories. He would often begin a biography without at first disclosing the identity of its subject. He later reported that, invariably, coast to coast, as soon as he had begun, “There was once a boy who was born…” several children would at once interrupt with shouts of “Was it King? Was it Martin Luther King?

  58. Yes, King plagiarized his PhD and cheated on his wife. So fucking what? He’s also, most likely, the only reason this country was able to end its vile policy of legally enforced racial segregation without having to go through the violent convulsions of a Civil War Mark II. Had King never been born, there most likely still would have been Black Liberation in the 60s or 70s, only it would’ve been the violent kill-whitey Black-Panther type.

  59. M,
    Had it said “an individual living during american history,” I would concur, but a quick glance at things from the mayflower compact to FDR praying on the radio in Jesus’ name to the flap over christian prayer in schools to the concerns of Brother Hickabee wanting to make us a constitutionally christian nation would suggest that Jesus has been a large individual in american history.

  60. I certainly can’t think of any private citizen more deserving of a national holiday.

  61. brotherben, just today, though it hurts, I’ll practice ahisma and concede.

    /*sniff

  62. King’s point, I think, was that a lot of the people praising him for nonviolence were doing so only because they were afraid of the people he stood in front of.

    That’s probably a fair interpretation of his remarks, but he managed to make this point in a way that was unnecessarily disparaging (killing Vietnamese babies, indeed) and which admitted of no exceptions to the principle of non-violence, e.g., pacifism.

  63. Anybody who J. Edgar Hoover dislikes is fine by me.

  64. Its weird that the same people who (rightly) dismiss “dead white male bashing” are very quick to engage in “dead black male bashing”.

  65. >in my best homey simpson voice:

    WooHoooo

  66. But y’know, brotherben, that since American history post-dates the Resurrection, “an individual living during american history,” is actually more accurate.

    Tee-hee.

  67. Yes, King plagiarized his PhD and cheated on his wife.

    Wait, WHAT!?!

    Dude, they should totally cancel the holiday they established to honor his contributions to the twin causes of monogomy and academic standards.

    Huh?

    Oh. Right then. Er…nevermind.

    Well put, Jennifer.

  68. I rather wish we would be celebrating this holiday on the Monday closest to Martin Luther King’s birthday, which would have been the 14th. Otherwise we wouldn’t be celebrating it on Stonewall Jackson’s birthday. Next year, I think it’ll be on Robert E. Lee’s Birthday.

  69. They ask if our nation wasn’t using massive doses of violence to solve its problems to bring about the changes it wanted.

    So are massive doses of violence worse than massive doses of steroids? Maybe we can combine this thread with one of the baseball ones and discuss.

  70. I rather wish we would be celebrating this holiday on the Monday closest to Martin Luther King’s birthday, which would have been the 14th. Otherwise we wouldn’t be celebrating it on Stonewall Jackson’s birthday. Next year, I think it’ll be on Robert E. Lee’s Birthday.

    George Allen solved that in Virginia by proclaiming Lee-Jackson-King day. Yes, he put King’s name last.

  71. joe @ 11:27am, I genuinely (believe it or not) wonder how you or someone else would then parse

    adultery + plagiarism : desegregation :: newsletters : leaving Iraq + abolishing the Fed, the IRS, etc.

  72. M,
    But I suppose I could argue that Jesus lives forever since the resurrection.

    As an aside, I remember a few years ago reading a story about a local KKK chapter asking the state of Missouri (I think) for a section of highway to adopt and clean and the state gave em the section of interstate known as the MLK jr. memorial highway.

  73. Well, M, I’d draw a few distinction:

    Adultery and plagiarism are part of the man’s private life, while the newsletters are part of Paul’s public life.

    King actually did lead our country out of segregation, while Ron Paul hasn’t really accomplished anything.

    Fighting against segregation in the 50s and 60s gets you beaten, arrested, and killed, while I’ve yet to see the snipers and attack dogs sent after libertarians.

  74. joe, I see you and I were wondering about the same thing at the same time.

  75. Well, M, it does sort of jump at you when you read such comments written by the same people in such close proximity. It’s tough not to notice.

  76. joe (while cross-posting abounds) – I’d call plagiarism, by definition, part of anyone’s public life. A minister’s sexcapades too.

    The newsletter dispute concerns whether RP should be granted the chance to accomplish, say, saving the lives of many in Iraq.

    I’m not sure what the implications of your third point are, and will ponder it.

  77. It’s tough not to notice.

    Damn. And I thought I was being exceptionally clever. I guess everyone else is smiling at our slowness to catch on.

  78. If I recall correctly, Columbus is a figure in American history and Easter isn’t a federal holiday.

  79. brotherben, that was my obviously unclear point.

    Sweet story about the highway. Perhaps one day the Ron Paul Freeway will get its sprucing up by…?

  80. Oh, I forget. The Ron Paul Freeway will get its sprucing up by its owners.

  81. Also, some people think Columbus doesn’t deserve a holiday (due to slave trafficking and being an insufferable dick).

  82. Doesn’t New Years Day also celebrate the birth of Jesus?

  83. Maybe for some people, the New Year is related to Jesus. Where I come from, New Years Day celebrates the Earth making it around the Sun one more time.

  84. But why on that day?

  85. And provides a good excuse to buy a new calander.

  86. I’ve yet to see the snipers and attack dogs sent after libertarians.

    We do get a lot of trolls, though.

  87. I’ve yet to see the snipers and attack dogs sent after libertarians.

    We do get a lot of trolls, though.

    And that seems to some of us as approximately the same ratio of evil as the newsletters stand in relation to what every other candidate will do to America.

  88. Martin Luther King was a sinner in a world full of sinners. But unlike so many other sinners in this world, he did things for justice that will echo through the ages.

  89. thoreau, should RP not get the same chance?

  90. I don’t want this to be a Ron Paul thread. In brief, though, Ron Paul’s candidacy is about being a messenger, and things that he did in his capacity as a messenger (or allowed to be done in his name) dilute his message. With MLK, his biggest sins were in a part of his life quite distinct from his activism.

    If Ron Paul cheated on college exams and cheated on his wife, I wouldn’t let that affect my support for his candidacy. OTOH, if MLK had allowed people to preach violence in his name and had never really made a clean break with them, then I would have considered his non-violent message diluted.

    You can disagree with the criteria that I’ve set, but please recognize that I’m applying them consistently.

  91. thoreau, should RP not get the same chance?

    Maybe you should point out where MLK, unlike RP, appealed to the ugliness in people for temporary monetary gain and politics.

  92. OK. To me it seems that the scale of evil to which RP is offering an alternative is so great as to dwarf whatever association he holds to whatever bad words were once printed. People with a predilection for abstraction (like me) easily forget the distinction between word and deed. If my conversations were taking place closer to Iraq, perhaps I would find the distinction still more vivid.

  93. In other words, I want the best available firefighter to extinguish a blaze that is killing innocent people, and all other questions are secondary. I brought it up here because genocide seems to me even worse than segregation.

  94. To me it seems that the scale of evil to which RP is offering an alternative is so great as to dwarf whatever association he holds to whatever bad words were once printed.

    That, of course, assumes that Dr. Paul was offering a viable alternative.

    Unfortunately, he is not.

  95. In other words for me as well, Dr. Paul hasn’t put out a fire in his life, and he doesn’t seem well-poised (nor did he ever) to do so anytime soon.

  96. When Constantine’s mother (Saint Helena) became a Christian, nobody really knew what day Jesus was born on. She selected Dec. 25 as Christmas, because it was the shortest (northern hemisphere) day of the year at that time. See Precession of Equinox (click handle for link). Helena thought Jesus was the must have been born on new years day (because he was God’s new messenger?). The shortest day of the year was also new years day by the calendar that was in use at that time (Julian calendar?). Odds are 365:1 that Helena picked the wrong day and conveniently converted a pagan celebration into a Christian holiday. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

  97. I don’t know how we ended up comparing Ron Paul to Martin Luther King, but, yeah, Ron Paul is no Martin Luther King. …but then neither am I.

    It wouldn’t be fair to compare Ron Paul to me either I guess–I have the distinct advantage of not being a stinking politician.

    I wouldn’t complain about being compared or contrasted, rather, to some of Ron Paul’s more obsessed groupies however. Even when I’ve latched onto a topic around here, take torture, for instance, I didn’t go about twisting every thread into something about that.

    Lately, it’s been feeling around here like that scene from Being John Malkovich, when John Malkovich takes a trip into his own head…

    Jesse Walker: “Here’s a quote in honor of MLK Day!”

    Ron Paul One: “Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul?”

    Ron Paul Two: “Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul.”

  98. “for the deliberately obtuse”

    Why do so many posters here, even when they have something useful to teach someone who has addressed them politely, choose to insult?

    I think that does more diminish outsiders’ opinions of libertarians than any particular content or controversy.

  99. Ken – Sorry. Blame tabbed browsing. And I’ll try to behave.

  100. Im confused.

    I thought MLK was a gay pedophile and blacks were the greatest threat to liberty since FDR?

    Or was that just one of those ron paul threads?

  101. I thought about posting something snarky or angry, but what’s the point? The man identified himself with the most murderous ideology in the history of mankind and did more damage to freedom of association and states rights than anybody in the last 100 years.

    I understand now. The only question is if you are unracist enough.

  102. And out of curiosity, do any of you doubt that if MLK had the power he would’ve at least been a Fidel Castro? Or is Fidel Castro better than Ron Paul too because he’s not a racist?

  103. Chalupa-

    Whatever MLK’s opinions on various matters, his concrete actions, the places where he actually had an impact, were in dismantling state-imposed segregation and teaching lessons on tolerance. He did more for those causes than plenty of other people of various affiliations.

    Also, freedom of association is still alive and well. All of us here are completely free to call you a racist douchebag and treat you as a pariah. None of us are required to associate with you.

  104. Also, freedom of association is still alive and well. All of us here are completely free to call you a racist douchebag and treat you as a pariah. None of us are required to associate with you.

    Yes, you have the right to tell me off on a message board. True enough, MLK was killed in time for us to keep some of our freedoms.

    However, you’ve lost the right to decide who you have to see at work everyday or who your kids go to school with. When somebody is forced to labor for someone else we call it slavery. When someone is forced to pay someone else for their labor we call it “civil rights”.

  105. And I’d like some evidence please that blacks are any better off since the “civil rights” movement. When it comes to crime, out of wed lock births, etc they’re much worse off. Filling peoples’ minds with false hopes of equality has made them much worse off than when the natural differences of the races was acknowledged.

  106. True enough, MLK was killed in time for us to keep some of our freedoms.

    Ah, yes, the murder of a dissident! What a glorious day for freedom!

    Seriously, Chalupa, WTF are you smoking?

  107. “When someone is forced to pay someone else for their labor we call it “civil rights”.”

    There is indeed a significant distinction between government entities not being allowed to discriminate based on race in all their various functions and government telling private busineses and individuals that they can’t do so.

    There is no Constitutional basis for the federal government having any authority to do that and it is a violation of freedom of contract, freedom of association and private property rights.

  108. Erm, excuse me, what’s this about MLK being the only individual in American history to have a federal holiday dedicated to him? Things have changed since I was a lad, but it used to be we had two others: George Washington’s birthday and Abraham Lincoln’s.

    Now, I know that Washington was a rebel against duly established authority, the leader of a gang of terrorists who attacked innocent people who were merely loyal to their king, creating thousands of refugees to Canada. And Lincoln was an anti-property warlord who killed at least 600,000 of his own people. (He also never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to Our Flag in his life.) Maybe that’s why we now have just Presidents’ Day in place of the former cult of personality. But they were individuals in American history.

    Grand Chalupa: “However, you’ve lost the right to decide who you have to see at work everyday or who your kids go to school with.” I never had the right to decide who I have to see at work every day. That’s up to my employer, who could hire Methodists or Catholics or my stupid brother-in-law who always pisses me off, and I’d have to their stupid faces every day at work whether I like it or not. An employer could even hire — you know — like totally Negroes if he wanted, and his white workers could like or lump it.

    Even funnier: “When somebody is forced to labor for someone else we call it slavery. When someone is forced to pay someone else for their labor we call it ‘civil rights’.” I realize that many capitalists wish they didn’t have to pay workers for our labor — and many employers like hiring illegals for just that reason, so they can stiff them on payday — but this doesn’t have anything to do with the Civil Rights law either.

  109. Chalupa-Seek therapy.

  110. For fun, let’s say in 1960 Mr. Segregationist and Mr. Anti-Seg are having a debate.

    Mr. Anti-Seg: Black/White inequality can be explained by opression. What we need is the federal government step in, and make sure that schools are not segregated by race.

    Mr. Seg: And if that doesn’t reduce inequality?

    Mr. Anti: Well, of course to tell a man he’s free to compete when others have been given a head start is not fair. That’s why we need government sponsored affirmative action. Quotas must be set for blacks in the job market and schools.

    Mr. Seg: And how long would these policies be needed?

    Mr. Anti-Seg: I can’t imagine more than a generation or two. But of course, we’ll need constant government supervision to make sure the quotas are being met. Also, we’ll put the burden of proof on each employer to prove he’s not discriminating.

    Mr. Seg: What you propose is silly. The differences in equalities is due to the innate differences in intelligence and temperment. Once you tell blacks that they are equal, and discriminate in their favor the only thing they’ll possibly be able to believe is that their situation is due to discrimination. Whites will be angry at blacks for special treatment, and blacks will be angry at whites for their perceived crimes. Racial tensions will increase.

    Mr. Anti: What nonsense! It may take some temporary government expansion to achieve equality, but in the long run it is worth it.

    Mr. Seg: What I’m saying is that equality is an idealist fantasy. The hope is going to lead to increased frustration among blacks, a loss of personal responsibility and a jump in their crime rates. Not only do your ideas infringe on the individual rights of the majority, they also harm the minority you’re trying to help.

    Mr. Anti: What nonsense! How can blacks end up worse off when they have more opportunity? You’ll see. No more than a generation or two of government help and the end of the myth that anything can be “seperate but equal” and blacks will have proportionate representation in all intellectual fields and preform just as well as whites in school.

    Mr. Seg: And if they don’t?

    Mr. Anti: Well, then I guess I’ll have to concede that you are right and that the differences between the races are natural.

    Mr. Seg: But how easy will it be to get rid of these new powers government has assumed after 40 years? Government beauracracy tends never to go away and minorities will not give up special privlidges they’ve had for half a century.

    Mr. Anti: No, if you are proven right, and if 50 years of proactive government action hasn’t reduced racial inequality than not even the most wide-eyed idealist will be able to deny the facts. If, as you propose, that the civil rights movement will make things worse, and blacks end up commiting more crime, racial tensions are up, blacks lose their sense of personal responsibility and have their out of wed lock birth rate go through the roof and blacks still remain under represented in every profession then affirmative action or government beauracracies designed to stamp out racism will be politically and intellectually indefensable.

    ______________________

    Fast forward fifty years later, and you get an idea of the insanity of our times.

  111. Fast forward fifty years later, and you get an idea of the insanity of our times.

    If only we had the liberty to write both sides of every argument. No debate would ever be lost.

    Yes, you have the right to tell me off on a message board. True enough, MLK was killed in time for us to keep some of our freedoms.

    You’re a shithead.

  112. And out of curiosity, do any of you doubt that if MLK had the power he would’ve at least been a Fidel Castro?

    Everyone, let’s point and laugh at the fool.

    It will do us all good.

    *HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!*

  113. The differences in equalities is due to the innate differences in intelligence and temperment.

    And that’s why he’s Mr. Segregationist, and why rather than pandering to him, the decent people in our culture simply banished him from polite society and stopped paying attention to his disreputable yammerings.

  114. Things have changed since I was a lad, but it used to be we had two others: George Washington’s birthday and Abraham Lincoln’s.

    Operative term being “used to be”. No longer, though; now its “President’s Day.”

    Meaning, I suppose that we celebrate George Washington, Richard Nixon, and Jimmy Carter equally!

    Wotta country!

  115. Look on the bright side, RC. The fact that they share means we only have to celebrate the bad Presidents for 33.5 minutes. And with every new President that time period gets smaller and smaller.

  116. The federal holiday is still Washington’s birthday.
    You can snopes it.

  117. Dr King was a great man.

    Haters, you’re just hurting yourselves.

  118. Chalupa, you’re what me an’ my kind call “a useful Towelhead.”

    Oh, you thought you were special because of your so-called “Science” that you’re as Intelligent as us? You’re darker, man, so into the fields with you, too.

    you made this bed. now lie in it.

  119. Joe continues the wonderful liberal tradition of ignoring facts and resting in his comfortable bed of moral superiority.

    And that’s why he’s Mr. Segregationist, and why rather than pandering to him, the decent people in our culture simply banished him from polite society and stopped paying attention to his disreputable yammerings.

    Well, that’s one way to win the argument.

    Thank God we no longer live in a society where Joe has to hear uncomfortable truths and instead live in one where our great cities resemble the third world and women abd children are raped, mutilated and killed daily.

  120. Ohnoes, the racist doesn’t like me!

    The argument’s over, man.

    Get back under your rock.

  121. It’s a shame we still don’t live in a society where a man is judged by the content of his character rather than by the color of his skin.

  122. Joe,

    I’m a “Racist”, the most horrible thing known to man. Keep ignoring me and look for others to back you up to prove you’re right (you’ve got the Reason staff and 90% of the posters here). I hope you and your delusions are very happy together.

    My friends, I point you to the case of Japan, to show you how beautiful society can be when its homogenous and made up of an intelligent race.

    Japanese are not blind to the fact that non-whites are a big part of the problem. They have not been brainwashed since childhood about racial equality, and know very well that not all groups are the same. Back in 1994, when The Bell Curve had just appeared, I was reading it during breaks while working with some Japanese clients. They had heard of the book, and asked me to tell them about it. I spent several minutes giving them the gist: that IQ is real, is heritable, and correlates strongly with social success-that there are substantial racial differences in average IQ, which are almost certainly partly genetic. When I was finished my three or four clients looked at each other quizzically, and one asked, “Doesn’t everyone know that?”

    I have never met a Japanese who is shocked at the idea of racial differences in IQ, or who thinks blacks and Hispanics are good for America. In an extended conversation about race and immigration, they may at first suggest that high-IQ Asian immigrants are good for the country, but quickly see why whites would want to keep the country white. They understand racial loyalty and the benefits of homogeneity, and often ask why everyone in America doesn’t think as I do.

    ……..

    Racial homogeneity means Japan has none of the oppressive machinery America has instituted to cope with “diversity.” It has no civil rights commissions, equal employment offices, or diversity consultants. Japanese never yelp about discrimination when something goes wrong, and never sue employers for “racism.” There is no racial tension, race riots, or hate laws. No one gets in trouble because the board of directors is all Japanese or because all the faces on television are Japanese. Nobody complains about “profiling” when the police pat down the most likely trouble-makers. No one is ever fired because he said something “insensitive” or told a forbidden joke or used a forbidden slur. Elections are about politics, not about whether Hispanics or blacks are taking over. Voting districts can have logical geograpahic boundaries, because no one worries about whether black or Hispanic votes are being diluted. There are no ethnic or national minorities that meddle with Japan’s foreign policy. Any number of hugely vexing and intractable problems are simply absent from Japan.

    Because of their similarity in outlook and background, Japanese tend to have similar expectations of others. Traditionally, when Japanese companies did business with each other, lawyers didn’t get involved. Businessmen sat down together and wrote out the terms under which they would do business. Often, at the end of a contract, where Americans would specify which courts would have jurisdiction in case of a dispute, Japanese would write that if there were a disagreement, the parties would meet, and resolve it. This worked because Japanese have a broadly similar sense of what is right, and of how to handle unexpected problems. Japanese companies with extensive dealings overseas have adopted some of the legalisms typical of American business, but Japanese life is still governed far more by custom, manners, and common expectations than by law.

    Homogeneity in Japan also squeezes out most of the tremendous variation in schools that is now common in America. Japan has nothing like the typical American big-city public school, with its unmotivated mob of blacks and Hispanics, it’s dreary record of violence and failure, its futile round of new gimmicks that are supposed to teach the unteachable. Japan has well-regarded private schools at all grade levels, and elite universities that get the best students, but the spread of abilities in Japanese institutions is usually not broad enough to justify either gifted programs or “special” education. Virtually all Japanese are literate and do math. If the cash register breaks down, they can make quick and accurate change, unlike the people at Burger King who would be stumped if you paid for a 17-cent item with a quarter.

    Read the whole thing.

    http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/01/in_praise_of_ho.php

  123. Just ’cause he’s a regular doesn’t mean he isn’t a troll.

    DFTT

  124. It’s a shame we still don’t live in a society where a man is judged by the content of his character rather than by the color of his skin.

    I’d have no problem with blacks if all they wanted was equal treatment. In fact, the 90% of those that vote Democratic do not want them, they went endless special privlidges, affirmative action and redistribution. They oppose otherwise sensible policies like IQ tests for public servants, high standards for college admission and seperating kids by intelligence or performance because they “disproportionately affect minorities”.

    And they are the greatest enemy of libertarians, because nothing “disportionatley affects minorities” more than liberty.

  125. Why don’t you move to Syria?

    Seriously. It’s pretty homogeneous.

  126. *checks out Highnumber’s colloidal blue shade. Reflects on it for a moment. Nods quietly in silent judgment*

  127. I’m really just pale, pale, pale and cold, cold, cold.

  128. joe-

    you’ve some decent distance from “libertarians”, and you’ve been here a while. The question is: I’m perceiving a change in the flavor and tone of the rhetoric around hier of late. Is it me?

  129. Highnumber?

    Moose – I’m not joe (but you knew that), and I think you also know the answer to your question. I feel like we’re being Chalupa’ed into submission.

  130. It’s not you.

    Where the hell do these people come from, and what makes them think they have fuck-all to do with free minds, the classical liberal tradition, or small government?

  131. BP,
    Strip him and shave him down, then, yeah, that’s me.

  132. “Where the hell do these people come from, and what makes them think they have fuck-all to do with free minds, the classical liberal tradition, or small government?”

    I’ve said this before, but there’s a difference between being against the government forcing employers to hire black people and holding up libertarianism as the solution if you want to discriminate against black people freely.

    …and there are some people who just can’t seem to tell the difference.

    To them, I try to explain, it’s like the difference between supporting Second Amendment freedoms, even if it means innocent people do sometimes get hurt, and supporting the Second Amendment as a means to hurt more innocent people.

    …some people can’t tell the difference between those two things either, but it’s usually not the same people.

  133. thanks, Baked! thanks joe. Hghnumber – I’ll bring the ‘lectric trimmer.

    and moving on what Ken’s saying – I’m not hep with a tent including racists, America Firsters, Truthers, ID’ers, Denialists, etc. Those views I do not like, and I feel they are damaging, and I shall not go down that path or accept light from their darkness-visible torches.

    Libertarianism, for me, is a way to reduce and eliminate bullying, NOT a tool for bullying.

  134. Chalupa, you said you’re an Arab. Are you sure–absolutely sure?–that you want to promote racial profiling and discrimination?

    Just checking.

  135. A. Randian-

    Maybe you should point out where MLK, unlike RP, appealed to the ugliness in people for temporary monetary gain and politics.

    Wasn’t MLK a “minister”?

    I would think a “Randite” might consider the whole “religion thing” to be an “appeal to the ugliness in people for temporary monetary gain”.

    I think it was Heinlein who noted that if “prostitution” is the world’s oldest profession- “religious nanny” (shaman, priest, elder, etc.) is surely the second…

  136. Hay Fletch!

    you owe me $20 for the bloody Mary, steak sandwich and a steak sandwich

  137. Grand Chalupa,
    Uh, you said the Japanese realize that “non-whites are part of the problem”. I think you meant non-Japanese(they hate Koreans and Chinese people, so I’ve heard). And while I don’t consider racism the MOST hideous flaw in someone’s beliefs, it’s up there.

  138. Here’s my list of idiotic beliefs(worst to least-worst, not a comprehensive list).
    1.Socialism
    2.populism
    3.racism
    4.Avoiding meaningful debate by complaining about all the “isms” people use.

  139. economist –

    sher. that works – understanding that #2 is individually-adjusted 🙂

    I’d like to add:
    morons who think Dean Smith was a good coach.

  140. Just how meaningful a debate can one have with a racist?

  141. is said racist also a Dean Smith fan?

    srsly – same level of meaningful as with an ID’er, Denialist, the PC types from my college days, etc. etc. etc.

    Although, I’ve seen you do some pretty ballsy things hier at H&R, so you probably could pull it off!

  142. “Just how meaningful a debate can one have with a racist?”

    It depends on the racist. I think there really are people who’ve just never had their prejudices challenged.

  143. thoreau

    Chalupa, you said you’re an Arab. Are you sure–absolutely sure?–that you want to promote racial profiling and discrimination?

    Maybe he’s one of those self hating Arabs.

  144. I suppose you could have a meaningful debate with a ractist about, say, baseball. Or landscaping.

  145. Just how meaningful a debate can one have with a racist?

    Depends what color he is.

    Keed! Keed!

  146. Chalupa, you said you’re an Arab. Are you sure–absolutely sure?–that you want to promote racial profiling and discrimination?

    Just checking.

    Arabs and people with funny shounding names should get more scrutinity in the Airport and blacks and Mexicans should get more scrutiny everywhere else.

  147. Methinks Grand Chalupa has serious issues. Homogeneity? The idea itself is ludicrous. For example the germanic peoples and the english are not made out of any one racial “stock.” Anglo-Saxons come from the “Anglos” and the “Saxons,” two distinct groups, not to mention other groups. To use one example, look at James Watson, who got into trouble with his comments about blacks: He was soon after revealed to have partially african heritage. And perhaps one might wonder what be causing a lot of problems for black americans? I don’t know, maybe….the war on drugs perhaps? A very large number of disenfranchised black males? Racism? No, according to Grand Chalupa, it’s because they’re intellectually “inferior” to whites. And as for “the bell curve,” it is hardly accepted science. Slate has a couple of good articles on it:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2416/

    http://www.slate.com/id/2128199/

  148. And for what its worth, Arabs are caucasians, we suck on IQ tests because those in the Gulf that fucked their Negro slaves and sometimes even blacks themselves are considered Arabs. Like I said before, a Saudia Arabian looks nothing like a Lebanese who looks nothing like a Muritanian. “Arab” is no more a race than “Latino”. The only reason I’m considered racially closer to Saudis then Greeks is linguistic history, due to Mohammed’s conquests. Had the Levant been Hellanized istead of Arabized, maybe I’d be a more credible white nationalist.

    Granted, while its rare that you find an Arab or even South European match Germanic brilliance or pure Aryan beauty, I am the exception.

  149. chalupa,
    where do arabs fall in the genetic IQ chart?
    if I am from caucasian stock, should I even bother trying to have civil discourse with you on any relatively difficult subject?

  150. Methinks Grand Chalupa has serious issues.

    Really?

    Why?

    I’ve told him before to join a knitting circle or something to get out and meet real people, but he wouldn’t listen.

    Well, either he didn’t listen or he’s the creepy guy knitting Klan hoods and swastika sweaters.

  151. where do arabs fall in the genetic IQ chart?
    if I am from caucasian stock, should I even bother trying to have civil discourse with you on any relatively difficult subject?

    You’d probably need to go learn the concept of an average before discussing anything.

  152. I’ve seen your post all evening. I think I’m pretty familiar with average.

  153. I’ve seen your post all evening. I think I’m pretty familiar with average.

    When one wants to make a smartass comment, especially about someone’s intelligence, for your own sake please read it twice before hitting send.

  154. I’m like an ol’ bullshitter from way back, and just for the record, I’m not buyin’ an Arab that calls himself Grand Gordita and spews…

    “Yo quiero Taco Hell!”

  155. It’s always the short, dark ones handing out leaflets for the Bund, isn’t it?

  156. What Reason needs is to provide a tip jar for a hooker fund. Some people really need to get laid, and I’d be more than happy to kick a few bucks to help realize that goal.

  157. MLK was killed in time for us to keep some of our freedoms.

    wow.

    and by ‘us’, you mean whitey?

    and by ‘freedom of association’, you mean “no niggers” lunch counters, and excluding minorities from voting rolls, etc.

    Granted, while its rare that you find an Arab or even South European match Germanic brilliance or pure Aryan beauty, I am the exception

    so, a combination of racial loathing and self-worship.

    Your genes do you proud.

    fortunately I am pretty confident your lineage will stop with you, since someone with convictions quite so vile cant possibly stay in a relationship long enough to breed

  158. here’s a question, my pro genetic-homogeneity chalupa.

    Why the fuck dont you go back to the happily racist, arab middle east, and enjoin yourself to the wonders of exclusionist, racist segregationist life

    My point being, if your own line of thinking was the policy of the USA, I’d be a citizen here (being beautiful, smart, and way Aryan and shit), and you’d be one of our fucking ditch digging slaves?

    See what i mean? Where do you draw the line with racial exceptionalism? Your stock is a genetic toilet. Why would we let some mongrel fucker like you have benefits like the first amendment? I mean seriously. What did your shitty kind ever do for this country aside from be an enormous pain in the ass, blowing themselves up and shit?

    Point being, if we make distinctions based on ‘race’ rather than individuals and their individual actions, why the fuck would we have ever let you reside in this Great Country?

  159. Why Grand Chalupa is Useful

    by highnumber

    I just listened to Dr King’s “I Have A Dream” speech and now I’m listening to Mavis Staples’ We’ll Never Turn Back, and I was just struck by the thought that folks like Grand Chalupa (I am inclined to think that he is a very sly parody, because, come on, can he be serious? – but either way…) demonstrate why Dr King’s mission is not over. We are all charged with tending to and expanding Dr King’s legacy. Thank the Chalupa for reminding us all.

  160. Why Grand Chalupa is Useful

    Dude, I already TOLD you how he was useful.

  161. Can’t we all just get along. Seems like its time for a group hug!!! LOL Man do message boards bring peoples passions to a boil. I for one think we should celebrate Jefferson’s birthday as well, and possibly Joey Ramones! LOL

  162. I have an idea to make this thread more amusing. Let’s all submit birthdays that we think should be national holidays. 🙂

    This way we don’t have to engage in vile racist banter or self-righteous “I’m white but alright” sermons on race.

  163. Wait. I changed my mind. Racism is actually **way** cool.

    I sometimes hate always having to roll with the ‘popular’ crowd. sigh. I think im more ‘alternative’ really. Maybe I’m also for the war now. Surge!! This is sweet. I have to tell my friends! They’ll be like, “what!!!” and I’ll be like, “yeah?!!” and they’ll be so like, “oh my GOD!!” and in like a while they’ll be like do you remember when Gilmore was like so not cool and then was REALLY cool and then was like OH MY GOD totally chose to go the other way to the uncool thing that NOONE could possibly get and then nobody knew what that whole thing was about and so were like, “yeah, racism is like maybe, underrated or something” and then like he’ll be so alternative-cool then because people thought he wasnt as cool as that but so totally was cause it was like unpopular and thats cool. Like, that whole goth look.

  164. Im taking over this thread
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
    I AM PROFESSOR CHAOS, AND I’LL MAKE THE WORLD RUE THE DAY IT SHUNNED ME. FIRST ILL BLOCK OUT THE SUN WITH A GIANT SUNBLOCKING MACHINE…WHADDAYA MEAN ‘THE SIMPSONS’ DID IT?!!

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