Republican/Democratic Debate Thread: Desperate Mitt and Slightly Less Desperate Hillary Edition

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It starts at 7 on ABC. Discuss it here—I may or may not be around to blog it. And I'm scrapping my idea of splitting the thread: Enjoy this one giant leviathan thread.

I ended up attending another Paul volunteer shindig at 7:30.

7:36: Ah, I'll one day miss the sound of Ron Paul fans smacking around Giuliani. He says "the war against Islamic extremism," they shout "Kill 'em all, Gulie!" He talks about his power to do so: "Forget the Constitution, right? Go back to New York!"

7:38: Charlie Gibson can't find anything to chide Ron Paul about. Big cheers at the Paul party.

7:41: The crowd here is utterly convinced that Thompson and Huckabee are stealing from Paul when they invoke the Constitution.

7:42: Well, Paul feels much the same way. "You can't pay lip service to the Constitution." Fist-pumping and yelling in the Paul bar.

7:43: Excellent cut to McCain smirking when Paul talks about foreign policy: "If we don't like them we bomb them, if we do like them we give them money."

7:45: These health care rounds are as awkward as the Democrats' Iran rounds. Giuliani proclaims we have the best health care system in the world: the bar yells "Bullshit!"

7:49: The room's response to Romney's description of Massachusetts health care: "Lies! LIES!" I'll disagree. Romney really only sounds credible when he's wonking it out about economics and health care.

7:51: A hilarious exchange between Paul and Thompson, the one man Paul is absolutely assured of beating next week. He sarcastically repeats Paul's answer and rolls it around on his tongues. "I'm just trying to slow it down so I can understand." "Keep trying," Paul says, off-camera.

7:57: I can't help but remember that fixing our health care system to focus on prevention was basically the central plank of the Natural Law Party. It's what Huckabee's saying, too.

7:58: There's the surging, populist McCain Jonathan Chait warned us/implored us to love in the early oughts.

8:00: "Don't turn the pharmacuetical companies into bad guys," Romney says. I don't think there's a political party on earth where that would be a vote-winning line, but I bet he believes it.

8:04: I don't know if the national broadcast has the same ads as the local WMUR broadcast, but we just got Joe Kennedy's ad/apology for taking Citgo oil for Citizens Energy. "This oil is from Venezuela. Some people say it's wrong to take it."

8:09: The reaction here when Giuliani mentioned ID cards was all I hoped for: "Chip! Chip! Chip! Chip in the head! Chip the animals!"

8:15: Hah! I was just about to join a conversation here about how much Rudy was talking about Reagan, like Reagan died on 9/11 or something. And then Rudy says "if Ronald Reagan was here, he'd say I paid for this microphone."

8:16: A fusion ticket moment: Fred elbows Rudy when he refuses to expel all Mexicans from the lower 48. A lone voice yells "Give 'im hell, Fred!"

8:17: He invoked Reagan to… uh… hint that he might sign an amnesty if he was president.

8:25: So far the answers on how these candidates would face Barack Obama aren't very convicing, not least because Fred Thompson can only name one interest group ("The NEA and, uh, others"). Romney says he can be the candidate of change, which has a great potential for giggles if attacked the right way.

8:27: McCain responds with some sweet Victor Von Doom cackling at Romney's answer. "I agree, you are the candidate of "change." I almost want Romney to respond by cackling back. Instead there's some quibbling about the Senate cloakroom.

8:34: Two questions in a row for Paul, about how he'd run against Obama—he talks about the youth vote but runs over and repeats himself—and the price of oil. Anti-war populism all over the place: "Oil was $27 a barrel when he went into Iraq to protect the oil, to take the oil!"

8:43: God, I hope somebody put bugs under that desk.

Stick around for the Democrats… I'm not blogging blow-by-blow because I'm milling around talking to Paul people. Whenever a candidate says "change," people lift their glasses and take swigs.

9:35: Clinton's big attack on Obama—a laundry list, something she's gotten too familiar with—is stomped on by both Obama and Edwards.

9:44: The Republican debates are more frustrating (and, typically, fun) than the Democratic debates because they're so focused on history and the past stances of the candidates. The Democrats have an inherent advantage as long as this primary goes on, because they're not really talking about what they believed in the past. The exceptional issue: Iraq. Everyone's scrambling to explain their positions before 2007 and during the surge, and Obama runs awfully quickly to the fact that he spoke out against it in 2003.

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NEXT: Quick New Hampshire Update

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  1. Is there an internet stream of this?

  2. Why doesn’t Stephie never “disclose” that he is a former Clinton employee and partisan?

  3. double negative ….Doh!

    Well Diane never mentions she worked for Nixon in the past but that is a little less culty.

  4. I’ve been looking for an internet stream of this debate as well with no luck.

    Anyone find one out there?

  5. How desperate can Mitt be? He’s got Dondero shilling for him and bringing along all the luck he brought to Rudy’s campaign.

  6. Man, i wish Mccain and Paul had sat next to each other.

  7. How, this is super nasty.

  8. ho ho ho! This is so much more interesting than previous debates

    They’re so hostile to each other 🙂

  9. Live stream.

    The Republican party is now officially insane.

  10. Points to whoever called John McCain on his use of the word “transcendent.”

  11. Early on and RP isn’t looking so great, I hope he picks it up. Time will tell, can definitely see that Romney is wound up tight tonight, Huckabee looks cool and collected.

  12. Is it just me, or aside from Ron Paul is there barely a difference between any of these guys?

  13. Mitt loves George Bush more than Huckabee.

  14. Ronki,

    Ron is doing as well as he can, when the other five guys are allowed to shout him down whenever they please.

  15. I like the line about Ron Paul not changing anything except his Party… 🙂

  16. Paul talks about how you can’t pay lip service to how wonderful the Constitution is if you don’t obey it in practice.

    In the background, McCain is guffawing.

  17. McCain says the biggest problem with health care is the effect of inflation.

    THe rush to copy Ron Paul continues apace…

  18. Fred Thompson is a complete douche!

    Fred: “So, if we stop printing extra money, and end the war, we can pay for health care?”

    Paul: “Yes.”

    Fred: “…hrmph.”

  19. THe rush to copy Ron Paul continues apace…

    This will probably be the most significant impact Ron Paul has on American politics: in 2007-08, he taught other Republicans some lessons they shouldn’t have forgotten.

  20. This is Ron Paul’s best debate so far. He’s clearly the only sane person out there, and the other candidates are proving they’re total assholes.

  21. is it just me, or are the other 5 candidates just talking in circles?
    I also like this line:
    We should “MAKE” the markets work better!

    Talk about making markets sound like some hoobily joobily. That’s a really good way to make people shake their heads and demand single-payer systems

  22. Fred and Mitt are going at it.

    Mitt is talking about forcing people who can afford health insurance to buy it or pay for their own medical costs. Fred’s question is, if a person walks into ER needing surgery, and they have high income, are you going to deny them care unless they pay up?

    Somehow he evades this question.

  23. RP just missed a softball. The previous question was about the constitution and sticking to it. Then the medical question. RP should have said, “The last question everyone gave lip service to the constitution and the very next question we toss the constitution aside in an attempt to address the medical situation…..” Stick to the constitution.

  24. Wow, what a mug shot by McCain when everyone tries to jump in on his question. I should do a screen capture of that and put it in the basement to scare rodents away!

  25. “Mitt loves George Bush more than Huckabee.”

    If loving GB will help him win the election, then yes he does love him more.

  26. Is this Goodbye Romney

  27. Health care is a bad spot for the GOP indeed. Everyone hates their health care, but the GOP’s answer has to be:

    “Everything is great. Oh, and more choice.”

    Yeah, that solves everything!

  28. Ha!/Matthews

    I wonder if Paul is trying to attract flies with vinegar, rather than honey when he chooses to talk foreign policy when the questions are domestic policy.

    I think if nothing else, Paul is setting the stage for someone with similar views to but is more articulate than him to do even better next elecetion.

  29. I love’s Paul’s little snarks. Remember, “Physician, heal thyself?”

  30. “Is this Goodbye Romney”

    I’d like to think so, it would restore my faith in political science when I told myself in 2000: there is no way the soft, spoilt, unaccomplished, largely terribly spoken dynastical son can defeat a principled war hero among the most jingoistic and militaristic party in many a year…And I was wrong…If the GOP wants to believe in horrible nonsense, that is bad enough…But at least do so CONSISTENTLY and INTELLIGENTLY!

  31. MNG, it helped that Bush’s father was the former President.

  32. Did McCain just say “with the Secretary’s Shirt Off?”

  33. “MNG, it helped that Bush’s father was the former President.”

    That’s just it, the same Prez they attacked like sharks for violating his tax pledge…

  34. Paul blew it on health care. He is correct about general inflation and government spending and printing money. Healthcare is specifically expensive because of government intrusion in the market. Third-party payment (both your employer and insurance companies), state mandates, state small-group “reform”, medicare and medicaid cost-shifting, the list is endless. General monetary and government policy has a role, but is too esoteric to explain in a debate.

  35. Romney: We need a card to show who’s allowed to be here and be employed…

    GET HIM, RON!!!

  36. Whoever asks, “Will you fight terrorism in a dress gets my vote.

    I was smoking outside of work one day and two Mormons walked up to me. They didn’t even know who Romney was. Beware the jawls of of Thompson, too bad he looks like a salty old judge.

  37. This debate is reminding me of nothing moreso than marriage counseling.

  38. Man, McCain is kicking Romney’s ass in the immigration exchange.

  39. ooo, liking the split screen!

  40. Romney: AMNESTY!

    McCain: NUN-UH!

    Romney: YA-HUH!

    (Etc.)

  41. Romney is self-destructing. Paul, meet 2nd place. Just avoid getting attacked a lot and it’s yours.

  42. Romney looks really hurt. Get him a Kleenex, Dr Paul, it’s not like they’re going to ask you a question or anything.

  43. I love’s Paul’s little snarks. Remember, “Physician, heal thyself?”

    Ole Ron is a bit of a smartass, but he’s such a nice guy that it’s hard to pick up on it. I wish he was more of an asshole, so he could tell the other retard candidates off properly. If he called Huckabee a “smirking hick” like Hitchens did, for instance, it would make me very happy.

  44. Romney: I was mis-quoted!

    McCain: Well, if a person changes positions as many times as you, they tend to get misquoted.

    Zing!

  45. Paul did it versus Morton Downy Jr.

  46. I agree. Ron needs to keep his mouth shut right now.

  47. Romney looks like he’s about ready to jump the table and hit McCain…

  48. The first Republican candidate who says that we should line illegal immigrants up before a firing squad…I think will win…geez!

  49. Actually, Giuliani is making more sense on immigration then the rest of them…..

  50. It’s funny how Mike Huckabee is completely silent during this immigration exchange, while everyone else is trying to butt in. Good strategery…

    Now it’s the Fred-Rudy split screen!

  51. Kinda wish Ron had brought along a visual aid like this to the debate:

    http://jtaplin.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/military.gif

    I also wish that graph included an “everybody else combined” column.

    -jcr

  52. Is that Thompson or a Mummy/Thompson Impersonator?

  53. Pig Mannix – yeah, but remember – our foreign policy has nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing.

  54. Funny, they did a wide angle shot for a moment and Dr Paul was waving his hands around like “Call on me!!!!”

  55. If Republicans won’t say that we are able to deport 12-20 million people then they have to offer a real plan, this is crazy!

  56. Huckabee: If we can put a man on the moon, shucks, how come we can’t secure the border?

    Not quite, but awfully close.

  57. Does anybody think that one of these Republicans will actually win in November…I just don’t see it.

  58. wow.. he really sounded articulate there. I was expecting him to be his usual, shakey, excited self

  59. ROMNEYCARE!!! EEEK!

  60. Paul made some good points on incentives… still think Giuliani’s strategy is the most pragmatic….

  61. I think the guys on stage are the only ones that think they can win in November James.

  62. Romney: “I was supposed to say the word ‘change’ and now I’m doing it”

  63. A liberal in a dress, Gods a cruel mistress indeed.

  64. This debate made me so mad I yelled at the TV so that my family couldn’t hear.

    I’ve got to stop watching these sneering, smirking, vacuous a-holes or I’m going to blow a vein.

  65. Dondero Is an indian name after all.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

  66. Headline Tomorrow

    Thompson woke up

  67. I hope the next time a politician uses the word “change”, somebody slugs him right in the teeth…..

  68. Governor Huckabee, how about CHuck Norris vs. Barack Obama?

    Uh-huh.

    How about Chuck Norris, bound with steel chains and gagged, thrown in a deep lake with Barack Obama in a nuclear sub.

  69. OOOh, Candidate of “Change.” BUURN!

  70. If this was a bar, Romney & McCain would be smashing bottles and facing off right about now…

  71. McCain is on FIRE!

    “Gov Romney, I agree, you are the candidate of ‘change’.”

  72. I was at the gym earlier today and the TV in the locker room was on CNN. They had the NH coverage on, and I’ve never seen guys glued to that TV as much as they were then.
    This is an important year, I think.

    Also, anecdotally, I was surprised to find that a natural-foods store in my home town has a “Ron Paul 2008” sticker up in the middle of their entrance window.

  73. Paul is overly talkative wonky on the immigration question: A and B and C and D and we can’t forget E and F…

    Romney and McCain are both coming across as jerks.

    It looks like Thompson is winning. Back from the Fred?

  74. Romney is just so emminently unlikeable, there has never been anybody so handsome who was so ugly.

  75. This debate made me so mad I yelled at the TV so that my family couldn’t hear.

    Well, that’s how I evaluate my politicians – the one who causes the least number of beer cans to hit the TV wins….

  76. joe,

    It seems to me that Duncan Hunter is winning.

  77. I missed the question. Was it “Now take a few minutes to bash Obama”?

  78. It looks like Thompson is winning. Back from the Dead?

    Fixed.

  79. “Vertical leadership that leads up, not down…[and always twirling, twirling, towards freedom]”

  80. “Huckabee: If we can put a man on the moon, shucks, how come we can’t secure the border?

    Not quite, but awfully close.”

    Actually, that is a good answer. If we prioritized closing the border, it would happen…

    A lot of people pick on Rudy for the dress thing. Imo it shows what a cool guy he is: a religious conservative would never do that. They are prudes…Rudy, whatever you guys (against) or Donderdo (for) says (and I hold that equally bad) is cool…

  81. +1 for Ron Paul, talking about helping the poor and compassion

  82. Gibson asks, what are you going to do about gas prices, and asks who wants to answer.

    Ron Paul is the only one to raise his hand…

  83. Was it “Now take a few minutes to bash Obama”?

    Close – it was “take a few minutes to bash Obama after stealing his talking point”

  84. Mr Chartreuse,

    As you typed that I was saying the exact same thing to the Wife.

  85. Ron Takes the pass, and brings it in for a slam dunk!

  86. Thank God for Ron Paul, how warmongerish would the Republican debate be without him?

  87. Holy ****! Gold to Oil stayed flat? I somehow agree even more with sound money now, and I was already supportive.

  88. Wait a minute – first Paul claims the price of oil is the result of inflation, and hasn’t changed relative to gold, then he claims we drive the price up through our foreign policy. Which is it?

  89. Well, that’s how I evaluate my politicians – the one who causes the least number of beer cans to hit the TV wins….

    I drink martinis. I need a different metric.

  90. Pig Mannix,

    Maybe he thinks the price would be going down wrt gold if it weren’t for our FP.

  91. Wait a minute – first Paul claims the price of oil is the result of inflation, and hasn’t changed relative to gold, then he claims we drive the price up through our foreign policy.

    Can’t it be both?

  92. “first Paul claims the price of oil is the result of inflation, and hasn’t changed relative to gold, then he claims we drive the price up through our foreign policy. Which is it?”

    700 Billion of War will increase inflation..

  93. I drink martinis. I need a different metric.

    Fewest number of toothpicks?

  94. Oh, Rudy! I knew the man on the moon would come up!

  95. Huckabee for Bribery!

  96. Huckabee wants to “untax” innovation and technology.

  97. Hmm…When Republicans talk about their love for pharmaceutical companies and big oil companies, how well will this message resonate?

  98. ‘any time you penalize productivity it’s “counterintuitive” to an economy?’

  99. Pig Mannix —

    Our foreign policy, which is financed through deficit spending, causes inflation. And when you invade one of the largest oil-producing countries in the world and threaten one of others, that causes oil prices to rise as well. I don’t see any disconnect there.

  100. Fewest number of toothpicks?

    No good, I use these reusable steel things.

    Maybe I’ll start marking off the Plymouth bottle with a Sharpie.

  101. OK, over to NBC for the football game. The analysis by Snuffalupagus and Sawyer is going to be garbage anyway.

  102. Can’t it be both?

    Not if I understand what he’s saying – he’s saying, in the first case, that the actual cost of oil hasn’t increased, the price is an artifact of inflation. In the second case, he’s blaming our FP for driving up the actual cost that he claimed hadn’t happened in the first case. Am I reading this wrong?

  103. Reinmoose,

    Don’t knock Huckabee, he’s the most prolific inventor of new English words since Shakespeare.

  104. ooo! Finally!
    A democratic debate without Chris Dodd and his practically negative polling numbers, but somehow greater respect by the media than a higher polling Dennis Kucinich.

  105. That bipartistan handshake at the end was the most repulsive part of the debate…and that is saying quite a bit!

  106. Don’t knock Huckabee, he’s the most prolific inventor of new English words since Shakespeare GW Bush

    There, fixed 🙂

    Also, those kinds of sentences are better than some sentences in papers submitted by many many many many college juniors and seniors.
    This is really sad.

  107. Shit, I forgot the Dems were on right afterward. I’ll have to watch that on YouTube!

  108. Romney is such a time-hog. They were ganging on o’ Ron Paul, but I think he did really well tonight.

  109. No good, I use these reusable steel things.

    Hmm, yeah. Not good to throw at the TV.

    Also, the olives are not expendable.

  110. In the second case, he’s blaming our FP for driving up the actual cost that he claimed hadn’t happened in the first case. Am I reading this wrong?

    As I understand the Austrian economics argument, the Fed-influenced inflation is also what feeds the government machine. Inflation isn’t that bad, so long as you’re the first fellow at the trough. And the top tier pigs are government and Wall Street/banker-types.

    Shorter version: it’s a feedback loop.

  111. Man, is it just me or did Romney and McCain look like they were ready to kick each other’s balls?

  112. So… do we get a new thread for the second act of “Mangle in Manch-vegas?”

  113. WINNERS:

    Duncan Hunter — he’s the only candidate who didn’t make an ass of himself in one way or another tonight.

    Ronald Reagan — he didn’t live to see his party devolve into this stinking mess.

    LOSERS:

    Mitt Romney — looked like he was going to cry at several points during the debate. “Don’t pick on me, I’m not the frontrunner anymore!”

  114. Everyone attacked Romney at one time or another…he’s so fun to piss off!

  115. 8:43: God, I hope somebody put bugs under that desk.

    I missed that. What happened?

  116. I think that’s a refernce to the Dems and Repubs shaking hands at the “changing of the guard”

  117. “OK, over to NBC for the football game. The analysis by Snuffalupagus and Sawyer is going to be garbage anyway.”

    I have to admit, I’ve been watching the Steelers from GET GO! Priorities…

    “Don’t knock Huckabee, he’s the most prolific inventor of new English words since Shakespeare GW Bush”

    Bullshit. Huckabee is no GW, he’s the next Reagan. He’s very good and folksy no matter what is asked him. That’s Reagan with a T. Bush was a bumbling fool in public…You may think what Huckabee says is foolish, but do you really think his delivery is foolish???

  118. is it just me or did Romney and McCain look like they were ready to kick each other’s balls?

    It’s not just you. And we can only hope, not only that it happens, but that they have to kick through Huckabee to get at each other.

  119. MNG –
    I don’t think that GWB’s delivery is really that bad. I mean. Ok, it is. But he’s a 2-term president in part because of his “fella you’d like to have a beer with” quotient, and that’s the vote Huckabee’s going after.

  120. Ouch. That hurts, BakedPenguin (for them, of course, not me).

  121. Facebook chick is hot!

  122. “But he’s a 2-term president in part because of his “fella you’d like to have a beer with” quotient, and that’s the vote Huckabee’s going after.”

    Does anybody think that the folksy southern shit-for-brains tactic is going to work again?

  123. NP – McCain (to Romney) “Rochambeau ya for President!”

  124. GWB has a way of speaking to evangelicals, for sure. I rember James Fallows annotating a State of the Union of his where he indicated what genuis the speech was if you were trying to reach fundies…

    My point is that Huck is WAY smarter than Bush. Do you doubt it? It’s one thing to disagree with what x says, it’s another to say that x is a fool….

    For instance, I hate Romney, but he’s no fool…

  125. we used to talk about the conservative t-shirt gal posted on the side of H&R, but that girl from the athiest site, HOLY SH*T she is hot!

  126. Yeah, Huck is smarter than Bush I think, and probably a bit more curious about the world as well….Not sure if we will find someone to equal Bush in my lifetime…I hope.

  127. Uh-oh, they’re showing supporters outside, and there are a bunch of 9/11 TRUTH NOW! signs mixed in with the Ron Paul signs.

  128. Does anybody think that the folksy southern shit-for-brains tactic is going to work again?

    Uh-Hy’up

    I reckon it just well might

  129. Does anybody think that the folksy southern shit-for-brains tactic is going to work again?

    Yes.

    Bush was elected on pure knee-jerk Republican partisanship, and re-elected based on hopeful terror-warriors and a weak opponent. Huckabee couldn’t manage if he wasn’t a rhetorical ninja. See “Fred Thompson” as a counter-example.

  130. Atheist Chick? Is this another ad that I can’t see?

  131. I don’t think Huckabee is a fool. I think he’s an opportunist. That scares me… just about the same I think.

  132. I agree about hating Romney, but I can’t put my finger on why he is so detestable, any ideas?

  133. On a slightly unrelated note…

    Fox’s O’Reilly gets pushy at Obama event

    Say what you will about O’Reilly, but you can’t accuse him of being boring.

  134. Uh-oh, they’re showing supporters outside, and there are a bunch of 9/11 TRUTH NOW! signs mixed in with the Ron Paul signs.

    Actually it ws mostly Hilary signs with a couple ronpaul and a couple 911truth signs thrown in.

  135. I agree about hating Romney, but I can’t put my finger on why he is so detestable, any ideas?

    He’s kind of like a Republican Clinton – you get the vibe he’d do anything for the brass ring.

  136. Who do you guys think won and lost tonight (besides the american people being big losers)?

    I think Paul did pretty well, but then again I’m incredibly biased.

  137. observer,

    Yes, but my problem was that the 9/11 TRUTH signs were among the Paul signs, not the Hillary ones.

  138. God, how I hate the Steelers. May Ben Roethlisberger do his best Joe Thiesmann “snap!” impression tonight.

  139. I don’t like Republicans generally, but if you throw out the ‘existential threat-islamofacism b.s.’, Rudy seemed a bit more reasonable than the others.

  140. BakedPenguin, McCain and perhaps Romney might get the reference, but not Huckabee, I think.

  141. “Say what you will about O’Reilly, but you .can’t accuse him of being boring.”

    No, that guy is pretty f*cking boring…He makes Larry King look, well, alive….

  142. Romney looked like this asshole i knew from high school who wore the lacoste polos and golf shorts with flip flops and always acted like he knew everything about everything, and would get very pissed if you disagreed with him. In our AP History class he once asked, “Why do you need the bill of rights if you aren’t doing anything wrong?”
    He ended up becoming a pothead and alcoholic in college and having threesome with another dude and a fat chick. I wonder what Romney will be doing in 4 years…

  143. “God, how I hate the Steelers. May Ben Roethlisberger do his best Joe Thiesmann “snap!” impression tonight.”

    GO TO HELL WARTY!!!” THE STEELERS ARE AMERICA’S TEAM!

  144. Ben,

    I’d say Thompson and McCain came out looking best, Huck and Rudy treaded water. Ron Paul and especially Romney didn’t look very good, but they were under attack by the others pretty much every time they opened their mouths.

    I really didn’t like this format. It sounds like a great idea, but it encourages the candidates to interrupt, laugh at each other, etc, in an attempt to discredit that person’s position. There was even a person on Facebook commenting that “You know Ron Paul is a nut because even the other candidates laugh at him.”

  145. I think Ron Paul did awesome too because he kept his cool and his response towards oil prices was just copied off by later candidates as they replied, but I am incredibly biased as well.

  146. Dr Paul really hurt himself during the discussion on foreign policy by saying that the “fact” that only America is being attacked by al-Qaeda shows that it’s not our freedom they hate, it’s our policy. Problem is, that’s not a fact; Rudy pointed out the attacks in Britain, Spain, Bali, etc.

    Also, his dragging foreign policy into every topic gets old really quick. I understand it’s all interconnected, but he can’t communicate that in 30 seconds.

  147. THE STEELERS ARE AMERICA’S TEAM!

    Your quarterback’s new name is Ben Frye.

  148. In other news, Bill Richardson is talking about the overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran in 1953, being a cause of terrorism! Even the Dems are stealing Ron Paul’s talking pts!

  149. Actually it ws mostly Hilary signs with a couple ronpaul and a couple 911truth signs thrown in.

    I saw the same.

  150. Mr. Nice Guy,

    I’m not a fan of O’Reilly’s by any means, but seriously, Larry King? I’ll take O’Reilly over King any lousy day.

  151. The Steelers? America’s team? I HATE the Steelers . . . how can they be America’s team? Most Steelers fans I know are pissy, overly-agressive,overweight morons . . .
    Wait! They ARE America’s team!

  152. As far as the others laughing at Ron Paul, lets remember Gandhi’s words:

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win

  153. It is so important to have a candidate like Paul who interconnects foreign policy with domestic policy…too often people in the U.S. do not understand the side effects of our militarism all over the world.

  154. It will be even worse for Steelers fans in the upcoming years when Brady Quinn romps all over you . . .

  155. it would actually make me really happy to hear RP say something to that effect, ColbyCO, when he’s at a debate and the other candidates laugh at him

    although, it’ll only make them laugh harder

  156. Yes, but my problem was that the 9/11 TRUTH signs were among the Paul signs, not the Hillary ones.

    I saw Paul and Truth signs on opposite sides of my screen.

    BTW, did anybody else see the news that Ron Paul is buying an hour of airtime in response to being excluded from FOX’s forum tomorrow?

  157. “In other news, Bill Richardson is talking about the overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran in 1953, being a cause of terrorism! Even the Dems are stealing Ron Paul’s talking pts!”

    -THANK GOD!

  158. Hillary disagrees with Richardson, and says that we need to keep Musharrif around for now, through the new parliamentary elections, because if Pakistan got a new parliament and a new president at the same time, it would be “harder for the United States to control what comes next.”

    Ohnoes. Not that.

    You know what she’s thinking – that we have to not bring about a crisis – but it highlights the way she equates our safety with exerting control over the other side of the world.

  159. ColbyCo,

    Much as I would like to believe that, there are an awful lot of people who’ve been ignored, laughed at, and fought, who never won.

  160. That is part of what Republicans and Democrats often share and I HATE…they want to dominate everybody else in the world at all times…its sick.

  161. I saw Paul and Truth signs on opposite sides of my screen.

    There was one Paul sign on a giant stick on the far left, and a bunch of smaller Paul signs with a couple of 9/11 truth signs mixed in on the far right. The center of the shot was full of Hillary plants signs.

    Anyhow, it’s not a big deal, I just thought it looks bad.

  162. actually, Hilary looks a lot more human today. She’s actually talking using words instead of phrases.

  163. joe and James,

    Well, the problem is that the president is now expected to do something about every problem under the sun. If you don’t have significant control over the leaders of other countries, that’s made exponentially harder.

    So, if gas prices go up, we expect the President to do something about it. If we didn’t have govts in the Middle East under our thumbs, we couldn’t lean on them to ramp up production before elections.

  164. It also bothers me that she’s the only one to mention that we need to scrutinize our intelligence before doing anything re: Pakistan.
    Seriously. That’s a softball. Others should have mentioned that as well.

  165. “It will be even worse for Steelers fans in the upcoming years when Brady Quinn romps all over you . . .”

    You mean Notre Dame’s Qb? BRING IT ON!

    As to Pakistan. That is an area of serious trouble. Lot’s of Islamic nuts and nukes. We should support whoever can control that. Sorry, I know I am supposed to be one of the resident liberals, but I happen to like Western Civ…

  166. actually, Hilary looks a lot more human today. She’s actually talking using words instead of phrases.

    Odamage control, but not enough time to consult the experts. Expect nervous forced laughter.

  167. Yes! Hilary-Obama split screen coming up, I can feel it!!!

  168. Why didn’t ABC cut Richardson out along with Kucinich and Dodd? He is a drag on an already boring debate. I’m done, catch the rest on the highlight reels.

  169. MNG,

    Somehow I doubt we can keep the lid on that particular pot forever. And the longer we hold the lid down, the worse we get burned when it boils over…

  170. Well, its not much better on the other channel, the Steelers can’t put up much of a fight at home against the Jags.

  171. Crimethink, I watched from my study and it’s the only room in the house without DVR. Perhaps I just missed what you saw. I’m sure somebody recorded it and plans to post to YouTube to say how nutty Paul supporters are.

    I really wondered if I was watching a Republican Party debate tonight though. Way too many programs suggested. I can’t bring myself to listen to the Dems right now. It would have been so much easier for me if Kucinich and Gravel had been invited.

  172. Hillary:
    “We want a stagnant president. A president that grows and learns is a sign of… badness because I made my mind up over ten years ago and I was right then so I’ll be right later.”

  173. “Well, its not much better on the other channel, the Steelers can’t put up much of a fight at home against the Jags.”

    C’mon, 14 points ain’t so much…I hope…

  174. Hillary does a good job exposing Obama. Obama’s a good guy, but he’s all smokes and mirrors for the most part.

  175. If SD beats the Titans tomorrow, we have the real Super Bowl, which will be NE-Jax, next Saturday.

  176. crimethink-we should support whoever can keep that nation sane…That’s my opinion..I don’t mean to be flip, Pakistan is a real serious deal, and we have to deal with it right, or ELSE…

  177. Looks like Edwards and Obama are going to gang up on Hillary!

  178. crimethink-I respect the Jags, since I like the Steelers and I think they may beat them, but they are no Colts.

    Manning vs. Brady…that is what to expect…

  179. Hillary’s getting out the wooden spoon…Edwards is going to get it. That’s the Hillary I remember!!!!

  180. It’s true, 14 points isn’t much, the Pats were down 12 just last week.

  181. 35 years of change by Hillary? That means since 1973…what is she talking about? Being married to a governor and a president?

  182. I am sick of this fucking word “change” already.

  183. Hilary stops when responding to Edwards at “Because obviously…”
    which should be completed with “the charges of being the status quo are directed at me, even though he didn’t really mention me by name except for to pointing out that I didn’t attack Obama until after I wasn’t in the lead anymore.”

  184. True or False…If the Jags win, they will turn over the deed of Heinz Field to Jacksonville in a post-game ceremony?

  185. But where has Hillary’s wooden spoon been and will she go back to Bill if she breaks it?

  186. You said it KJ. It was practically a verbal tic with the MSNBC team this morning.

  187. Eddy –
    funny story. When I was in middle school, my health teacher told the girls to use a wooden spoon because that’s what she uses….

  188. crimethink-I commented on this on H&r not long ago, she was talking about her “experience” and I almost threw up.

    Your “experience” as a first lady??? Or as a in-my-second-term-as-a-senator?

    Cuz that is nothing…

    What is WRONG with the Democratic Party that they cannot get a candidate with even a MODICUM of experience!!!

  189. KJ,

    I liked how Hillary said “making change is hard work.” How would she know, she’s been in public employment her whole life, never needed to work as a cashier. 😉

  190. Listening to these guys really brings to life Hayek’s words about the worst rising to the top in the world of politics.

  191. It will be even worse for Steelers fans in the upcoming years when Brady Quinn romps all over you

    Heh. You’re too funny! (That was a joke right??) The Browns would be (and, hey, it’s the Browns so they will be) stupid to let Derek Anderson get away. Mark my words, Quinn will be a flop and the Browns will be back to their usual losing ways.

  192. I’m just waiting till someone tries to say “change” and “stay the course” in the same sentence and falls on their face

  193. American presidential elections seem to be about getting everyone to swear on a Bible that they will attack another country at the drop of a hat..

  194. I’m glad we’re in agreement fellas. It’s just more annoying knowing that Romney brought that word over and I think McCain and Huckabee used it a couple of times as well.

  195. Reinmoose,
    The worst part is the picture that got in my head as I hit the submit button. :-O

  196. MNG,

    They had friggin Joe Biden and Chris Dodd, but they let them go (and Richardson is pretty experienced, and he’s pretty much dead as well).

    The people they’re supporting are n00bs.

  197. well observed, James.

    Also, MNG –
    Wouldn’t Richardson qualify as a candidate with “experience?”

    Or by candidate, did you mean party-nominee?

  198. Voters who want to close the borders, withdraw from Iraq, and nationalize health care are all supporting changes from current policy, and are therefore hungry for a “change” candidate.

    What a fucking idiotic media theme.

  199. crimethink-Biden is a bit manic…I would not vote for that crazy guy…Dodd, is he still running?

    I wanted Gore…

  200. I recognized that too, Graphite. That seems to be the definition HRC is using when she talks about having changed a lot of things.

    But for real! Who runs for president on the line “I will do nothing different than the last president.”

  201. Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
    (turn and face the strain)
    Ch-ch-changes
    Dont want to be a richer man
    Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
    (turn and face the strain)
    Ch-ch-changes
    Just gonna have to be a different man
    Time may change me
    But I cant trace time

  202. MNG –
    Neither of them are still running.

  203. I think a Democrat is going to win regardless of who the nominees are…I could be wrong, but I just don’t think voters are going to vote for a Republican candidate who says they represent ‘change’ and they do everything the same as Bush.

  204. If voters want change, hell, look at Ron Paul you pigeons.

  205. Hillary and Obama are the most terrible candidates ever…

    I mean that on two levels:

    1. Neither can win

    2. Both are TERRIBLE

    Jesus, I wanted Al Gore or Mark Warner…

  206. Boos? What a bunch of spoiled babies you Steelers fans are.

    Also, you sleep with your sisters, live in trailers, and can’t speak English.

    Wich way yinz go’an inta tahn? Gonna take da porkway eest thru da Squrlhilltuhnels?

  207. “I think a Democrat is going to win regardless of who the nominees are…I could be wrong, but I just don’t think voters are going to vote for a Republican candidate who says they represent ‘change’ and they do everything the same as Bush.”

    You are wrong. The GOP will win because the Dems have chosen such AWFUL candidates!!! Hello four more years of war against brown folks…

  208. KJ,

    They don’t want the changes Ron’s selling.

    They want painless, band-aid changes. America’s got a case of tuberculosis, and we want someone to give us free Robitussin for life.

  209. You are wrong. The GOP will win because the Dems have chosen such AWFUL candidates!!! Hello four more years of war against brown folks…

  210. What Republican could really win? I doubt any of them.

  211. You are wrong. The GOP will win because the Dems have chosen such AWFUL candidates!!! Hello four more years of war against brown folks…

    Cha-CHING! $$$$$$$

  212. Oh, funny thing. CNN thinks Hillary already won. Check the caption on picture #3 “Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton speaks to voters in Ames, Iowa, Tuesday.”

    Are you scared yet?

  213. “They want painless, band-aid changes.”

    Well, sh*t, crimethink, that is what it means to be a democrat!

  214. Reinmoose,

    Hilary stops when responding to Edwards at “Because obviously…”

    Specifically, she said “I need to respond to that, because obviously…”

    I filled it in with “…I just got pwned by John Edwards, and I’d better come up with something.”

  215. Haha, my brother works for a military contractor, I think he will be fine no matter which party wins.

  216. They don’t want the changes Ron’s selling.

    Yeah, the public is against the Iraq war because they think America is losing and can’t win. (What it would actually mean to win I don’t know.) That’s a big difference from the Ron Paul position that an interventionist foreign policy is inherently counterproductive/immoral/etc.

  217. AAAAAAH! They just showed Chelsea without warning us first!

  218. The only Republican that could possibly win is John McCain, and the only reason he would have a shot is that the press loves him.

    Did you see the caucus number from Iowa? 2:1 Democrat. Independents flocking to Obama. Democrat year.

  219. Am I a bad libertarian if after watching that first debate that I hope a Democrat wins over anyone Republican that isn’t Ron Paul?

  220. Joe:

    Democrat year.

    Ya think??

  221. Obama: None of the Republicans on the stage in the first debate would represent a change from George Bush.

  222. sine,

    There’s an in-between position. The American people realize that taking over other countries and trying to fix them while the occupy them is a terrible idea, even if they still support more military action than Ron Paul.

  223. but joe, do you think that independents would sooner flock to HRC or John McCain?
    I don’t pretend to know that answer to that question, but I think from the results from Iowa, HRC lost the independent vote to Obama. If HRC was the nominee (meaning Obama wasn’t an option), would those independents go back to her, or still ditch her?

  224. Am I a bad libertarian if after watching that first debate that I hope a Democrat wins over anyone Republican that isn’t Ron Paul?

    Maybe – but I doubt you’d be alone….

  225. I think alot of people are severely underestimating the damage done to the Republican Party by Bush, we may very well be undergoing a far more fundamental re-alignment in this country.

  226. Did you see the caucus number from Iowa? 2:1 Democrat. Independents flocking to Obama. Democrat year.

    Or, maybe people just really don’t like Hillary.

    ::crosses fingers::

  227. joe,

    Who would David Broder support in an Obama-McCain race? Would his head explode at the thought of so much BIPARTISANSHIP?

  228. Am I a bad libertarian if after watching that first debate that I hope a Democrat wins over anyone Republican that isn’t Ron Paul?

    No. For the GOP to ever be worth a damn again the Frankenstein’s Monster that is Roveian wedge politics needs to be utterly defeated. To double down (and further confuse) my metaphors, it needs to bash its head against walls of defeat until its brains spill out in little gooey pieces.

  229. Reinmoose,

    McCain would probably draw more independents than Hillary, but fewer than he would have in 2000, just because he’s the Republican.

    But there will be more Democrats than Republicans, and very little crossover voting.

    The point is, he would get a good number of indepdents, maybe enough to win, and none of the other Republicans could.

  230. Since 2001 the dollar price of oil and gold have run in almost perfect tandem (see nearby chart). The gold price has risen 239% since 2001, while the oil price has risen 267%. This means that if the dollar had remained “as good as gold” since 2001, oil today would be selling at about $30 a barrel, not $99. Gold has traditionally been a rough proxy for the price level, so the decline of the dollar against gold and oil suggests a U.S. monetary that is supplying too many dollars.
    Oil and the Dollar

  231. Besides, you’re all wrong. The White House will be won by the Unity ’08 ticket.

  232. Who do you think McCain would choose as VP…LIEBERMAN, I would vote for my jackass landlord before that combo.

  233. The problem, Graphite, is that the likely result of the GOP getting its brains bashed out by the Dems for a few cycles is for them to emulate the Dems, not to return to small govt principles.

  234. Am I a bad libertarian if after watching that first debate that I hope a Democrat wins over anyone Republican that isn’t Ron Paul?

    To apply Dondero logic to this question:

    I am the epitome of good libertarianism.
    I feel the same way.
    Therefore, no.

  235. I love it when people dismiss RP’s monetary views as “crankery.” It’s a good sign that the gold bull run (in nominal dollars) still has a *long* way to go.

    People will be begging for RP’s competing currencies by the time the Fed is done shredding the dollar to pieces.

  236. McCain would probably draw more independents than Hillary, but fewer than he would have in 2000, just because he’s the Republican.

    ——

    The point is, he would get a good number of indepdents, maybe enough to win, and none of the other Republicans could.

    Agreed (except… John McCain has always been a Republican, so I don’t really understand what you mean by that)

    And if it came down between HRC and John McCain, John McCain could lose due to a concerted effort by current RP supporters to either not vote, or vote for a 3rd party, seriously hurting the normal republican voting block, if even only by a few percent.

  237. I’m no fan of HRC, but I think she would come out in the end over McCain. Evangelicals hate McCain so I think he would still lose, and I wouldn’t be surpirsed if an independent gets into the race and takes away from the Repubs.

  238. Will Ron Paul get trounced as badly here as he got trounced in Wyoming? How much money has he raised to place fifth? Has the man no shame?

  239. Edwards: If you eat dinner with a lobbyist, you eat dinner with CANCER!!!!!

  240. Bill Richardson knows what he is talking about, too bad he just gets portrayed by the media as chopped liver.

  241. KJ,

    No, he doesn’t. He just implied we can cut greenhouse emissions by 80% by buying more efficient cars and using light rail.

  242. bachwards,

    David Broder, like Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Reynolds, would defer to Obama, out of concern that “a segment of the American public” would resort to violence if he lost.

    He’s all about soothing the untrustworthy segments’ political passions with his bipartisan centrism.

  243. The only Republican that could possibly win is John McCain, and the only reason he would have a shot is that the press loves him.

    joe, yeah the press loves him but no way he moves the Republican base to vote enough to make up for whatever independents he picks up. On the other hand, I suspect (fear, quite honestly) that the Huckster will be able to get the base GOP vote out in large numbers if (when) he’s running against either Clinton or Obama. Also I think you all underestimate the ability of the Democrats to lose presidential elections that should be a lock (see Al Gore).

  244. Well, obviously not on every issue he discusses. Haha. No one’s perfect.

  245. First… allow me to say… Cleveland has the wonderful ability to be the only city with three major professional sports teams (Indians, Cavs, Browns) to have not won a championship in over 30 years… (And I’m not happy about needing to pay for the new stadiums as a smoker and a drunkard.)

    Second, to miche, SWEET ZOMBIE CHEEBUS! No more fscking Kucinich…

    I’ve already got to deal with him being my gods damned congressman… He’s a special little imp who bankrupted Cleveland back in the day… and for some reason people keep voting for him.

    And as to who will win… I really think it will depend on the nominee from each side… And neither side has any truly stellar nominees… The Democrats look like they’ll be tossing up someone with under a decade of actual experience (Hillary with what, 8 years as a senator or Obama with a total of 3 years as a senator?) and the Republicans are battling between two religious nuts…

    Maybe I should start selling noseplugs… I think selling them right outside the voting booths in November could net me a tidy profit…

    Nephilium

  246. Reinmoose,

    I meant, McCain is the Republican, running in 2008. Being the Republican wasn’t such a deal-breaker for so many independents in 2000.

    That’s an interesting idea that Ron Paul voters could drop out of the election.

  247. Honestly, I think Huck would lost by 10-12 points, it would be a catastrophe for the Republicans.

  248. Honestly, I think Huck would lost by 10-12 points, it would be a catastrophe for the Republicans.

    I’d love it if you were right, but I just don’t see where such optimism is coming from. I fear he’s the most likely candidate to win right now.

  249. Gibson: Last question, what is the one thing you’ve said in the debates that you wish you could take back.

  250. I know that is just a loaded question.

  251. Brian Courts,

    Huckabee could turn out more Republicans than McCain, but he’d get a lot fewer independents.

    As for the Democrats losing locks, 2000 wasn’t a lock. People sometimes think a vice president enjoys an incumbent advantage when he runs for president, but history doesn’t bear that out.

    Old Bush won in 1988, but Johnson’s vice president and Eisenhower’s vice president both lost.

  252. Maybe I should start selling noseplugs… I think selling them right outside the voting booths in November could net me a tidy profit…

    Expand your horizons – sell barf-bags as well…

  253. He just implied we can cut greenhouse emissions by 80% by buying more efficient cars and using light rail. No, those are called examples.

  254. If Huckabee is the Republican nominee(he won’t be), they would lose Independents by 3 or 4-1 and a lot of more secular Republicans would cross over, espe. if its Obama. You can tell by the way people in the Party talk about Huckabee, they know he would get trounced.

  255. Hillary: A few things, I won’t specify. Republicans suck.

    Richardson: I said Byron White was my favorite SCOTUS justice, and then found out he dissented in RvW.

    Edwards: I made fun of Hillary’s jacket.

    Obama: I agree with Hillary, Republicans suck.

  256. 7:41: The crowd here is utterly convinced that Thompson and Huckabee are stealing from Paul when they invoke the Constitution.

    Hey! Maybe they’re the ones who took all the references to God out of the Constitution just to make a liar out of Ron Paul. The bastards!

  257. Thing is, Bush gets waylayed all the time for being unable to think of one of his mistakes, but these four can’t come up with a single good example of something they’d take back.

  258. If McCain picked Lieberman as a VP, he’d get even fewer votes from independents (I would think). I certainly would be even less likely to vote for him (0% is harder to get lower than, but I’ll manage… maybe I’ll drag someone else’s vote for him down with me)

  259. The Dems were a lot more collegial than the Republicans tonight and more careful as well.

  260. So, one thing to remember is that in New Hampshire, as in Iowa, the debates aren’t as important as the campaigning and free press they get.

    If someone doesn’t convincingly win or blow it, they’re unlikely to have a huge effect.

  261. Americans are war weary. And gas price weary. And health care price weary. We just want someone who makes us feel good. Like a Jimmy Carter. Or a Bill Clinton. Obama and Huckabee are the ones that come across as the most genuine.
    And yes I believe the average voter in america is that simple minded in their decision.

  262. joe,

    Johnson’s VP ran at the height of the massively unpopular Vietnam War.

    Eisenhower’s VP probably won that election, but we’ll never know b/c he did the honorable thing and didn’t fight the fishy ballot count in IL.

  263. Mein Gott, what an odious man Edwards is. All ridiculous populist bluster and invective. You’d think the US was in the great depression. Oh please someone bring up tort reform, the biomaterials access assurance act, and the influence of the trial lawyers of america lobby group.

    Such hot air in this debate. Clinton, save Richardson when he isn’t talking pure drivel about 80% greenhouse gas reductions, is the only one of any substance. Her nanny-state/big mother “vibe”, for want of a better term, is really obnoxious. She would probably be much better on macro-economics than the other democrats though.

    Time for a glass of port, and something to relieve the current head ache.

    Question for you all: which candidate, from both parties, would have the best policy for foreign US educated scientists/engineers who would like to move back to design devices/start a company etc/teach students etc?

  264. If Humphrey comes out against the war sooner, no way he loses the election to Nixon, he barely did anyway.

  265. dbcooper,

    This is Hit and Run…Do you even have to ask that question?

  266. OK, “probably won that election” = didn’t do quite as well as Gore in the voting booth. They’re in the same ballpark.

    The pattern is, there’s no pattern. Being a sitting vice president has either little or no effect on your chances of election. There is no discernable “incumbency” advantage, the way there is for a president.

  267. And lets remember that Gore actually won in 00…

  268. Oh yeah, and the few hundred republicans I know down here, (mostly from church, southern baptist), are very concerned that the party has gotten away from good christian values and are looking for a Godly candidate to support.

  269. In fact, some political scientists theorize that there is a weariness factor that kicks in when a party holds the White House for multiple terms, and it flips either after 8 years of 12.

    Truman leaves, Ike wins. Eight years later the Democrats win. Eight years later the Republican wins. Eight years later the Democrats win. Four years later the Republicans win. Twelve years later the Democrat wins. Eight years later the Republican wins.

    One time – one time – since the end of World War Two, the same party has won the White House more than twice in a row.

    People who think 2000 was a lock for the Democrats ignore a lot of history.

  270. We just want someone who makes us feel good…
    And yes I believe the average voter in america is that simple minded in their decision.

    I agree. Furthermore, I see this as an asset not a liability.

    True high-stakes, winner-take-all politics is very third world, and very ugly.

  271. True Crimethink, true. However, of the candidates likely to get a nomination (sorry Dr Paul, love you but I can’t see it happening), who would it be? Romney/McCain/HillBeast?

  272. brotherben –
    Down where?
    And it does make me sick.
    It’s everything I can do to keep my mom in support of Ron Paul, even though she would naturally gravitate toward Mike Huckabee (good Christian values, secular attacks on religion, etc.). I think she likes Ron’s foreign policy stance and level of genuineness, so.. we’ll see.

  273. I’m not sure I buy the independents as such a deciding factor. I suspect among independents the majority are either left-leaning or right-leaning and will likely end up voting for the party they usually vote for. The number of real swing votes that Huckabee would scare to the Democrats side are not enough to make up for his ability to appeal to the base of the party and motivate them to vote. I think that is where the race will be decided. I doubt the number of GOP voters who are secular enough to be wary of Huckabee are so great as to be all that decisive either. Plus, I think Huckabee will be much more able to motivate the not entirely insubstantial “wink an nod” opposition to either Clinton or Obama. Not that he’d necessarily “wink and nod” himself, but imagine if that group of voters is faced with either a white male southern Christian fundy or a woman or (gasp) a black? Those people will turn out in droves for Huckabee and would not do so for McCain. Between the standard religious conservative GOP base and those less savory types, I think the loss of independents won’t be enough to derail Huckabee. I hope I’m wrong.

  274. Reinmoose

    southeast Alabama

  275. southeast Alabama

    I’m sorry.
    They must be of the same sort of breed as my southern-baptist Aunt and Uncle in Pensacola.
    They called around Christmas time and they’re voting for (SURPRISE!) Huckabee
    (The snarky “surprise” part was first communicated by my dad)

  276. Back in 2004 when Obama was getting trounced in the polls by a wife beater I said that he would be unbeatable in the general election. I would say the same thing this year, but I don’t know if Hillary is a wife beater.

    If Hillary gets the nomination, she’s very beatable. Huckabee would stand a very good chance of winning.

  277. People who think 2000 was a lock for the Democrats ignore a lot of history.

    joe, I didn’t think Gore was a lock just because he was VP – I realize that historically that is no guarantee. But with the situation at the time – years of unprecedented growth, a budget surplus, a high approval rating for Clinton, low unemployment, etc. etc. … and Gore as the obvious heir to that record. It took a special candidate to find a way not to run away with that election.

  278. Mr. moose,
    Don’t apologize for my shortcomings. I was borned here. lived out west for a long time.

    Huckabee is a wet dream for the typical white church goin establishment in the deep south. (my fave oxy-moron)

  279. The social democrats I know here are kinda scared of Hillary. They feel like Bill is a saint for tolerating her all these years. She invokes in most of them that most heinous of descriptive words for a female.

  280. That pass interference call on the Jaguars was BS. Ward had his hand in the defender’s facemask the whole way. This game should be over, but now the Stealers have the lead!

  281. Brian Courts,

    I think we can assume that the Democrats will turn out in huge numbers, just like they did in 2004. We can further assume that, if Huckabee is the nominee, Republicans will turn in out in huge numbers, like they did in 2004.

    In 2004, independents tipped by several points to Bush, and he won by 2 points. If they tip towards the Dems in anything close to the numbers that they did on Iowa Caucus night, it’s a Democratic victory.

    As for 2000, Ike left office with a good economy, the country in good shape, and a great deal of popularity. His vice-president lost, too.

  282. tuff ta beat a team what has 16 men on the field

  283. That pass interference call on the Jaguars was BS.

    He had his arm around Ward from the line of scrimmage through the end of the play!

  284. Uh, kind of hard to separate from someone who’s pulling you into the endzone by your facemask.

    You Pats fans are just afraid of facing the Jags!

  285. tuffer ta beat a tem whats got 16 guys on the field and videographers

  286. She invokes in most of them that most heinous of descriptive words for a female.

    Butch?

  287. brotherben,

    I was wondering what you were talking about, then I realized there are five officials on the field. Very clever…

  288. Uh, kind of hard to separate from someone who’s pulling you into the endzone by your facemask.

    If you take your left arm from around the other fellow’s waist, it’s a little easier.

    You Pats fans are just afraid of facing the Jags!

    In Foxborough in January, they would probably have a better chance than the Colts. Since when does Florida build teams for the cold like that?

  289. I’m so bright my daddy calls me son

  290. Jesus, I wanted Al Gore or Mark Warner…

    We wanted Al Gore too! Or Kerry again….Hillary is beatable……… half the country hates her Now just think how many she could lose in the campaign. Obama presents a challenge…to say the least.

  291. Ten bucks says a female libertarian began talking to Weigel at 9:46.

  292. OMG, Gore/Kerry or Kerry/Gore would get 310 electoral votes – this year only.

    Can you say “do-over?”

  293. Do such creatures exist, joe?

  294. joe: Ten bucks says a female libertarian began talking to Weigel at 9:46.

    crimethink: Do such creatures exist, joe?

    She must not have a child 😉

  295. What happened to the other two officials who are supposed to be on the field?

  296. If you take your left arm from around the other fellow’s waist, it’s a little easier.

    I was just making sure he didn’t fall down…his pants were down around his goddam ankles.

  297. People who talk about sports in political threads are exactly as annoying as people who discuss politics in sports threads.

  298. “Jaguars #29 | January 5, 2008, 11:19pm | #

    I was just making sure he didn’t fall down…his pants were down around his goddam ankles.”

    Larry Craig plays ball for the jags?

  299. People who talk about sports in political threads are exactly as annoying as people who discuss politics in sports threads.

    And they’re both one-third as annoying as people who complain about either. 🙂

  300. rho –
    I take it you’re not watching the game.
    It’s actually pretty interesting right now.

  301. Heh. David Garrard Ron Paul runs the ball into field goal range!

  302. Wow – did you see that 30 yards on 4th and 2? That’s the game right there. Fun to watch the betting markets swing wildly back and forth over the last few minutes… just jumped from 20 to 90 for Jax.

  303. Big Ben with a Big Fumble…GAME OVER!!!

    Justice is done!

  304. ???

  305. Second, to miche, SWEET ZOMBIE CHEEBUS! No more fscking Kucinich…

    I’m not a fan of his political philosophy but he makes things sort of interesting on that side.

    As for your sales idea, perhaps you can fashion and market little certificates that say something along the lines of “I held my nose but still managed to pull a lever that’ll fuck up the country!”

    Going upstairs for a little Guitar Hero- it’s time to show the family who’s boss. ;o)

  306. As a pittsburgh steelers/ron paul fan to say that my heart is broken is an understatement. Well, it’s not all lost…

  307. Ron Paul could have done much, much better here. He is the only one on that stage that is different. If he was much more aggressive during the foreign policy discussion, if he better articulated himself, if he was more consistent in explaining himself, we would see a for-sure 2nd place win in N.H., maybe even a first.

    But that’s not what happened. His responses were cringe-worthy. The political conditions are right for someone with Ron’s politics to take office, it’s just not going to be him, and then the opportunity will float away.

  308. Holy Shit, 307 comments?

    How many are from Edtard?

    SaS aka(s&s)

  309. The political conditions are right for someone with Ron’s politics to take office, it’s just not going to be him, and then the opportunity will float away.

    Too bad we can’t graft the Huckster’s personality onto Paul. He’d be unstoppable.

    Holy Shit, 307 comments?

    How many are from Edtard?

    Believe it or not, only 2 were from Special Ed.

  310. I just came back from St. Anselms! It was great! I completely enjoyed it. I am all fired and and so excited. Ron could actually win this thing in NH (at worst 3rd)! OK, time to go to bed –too tired. I will show it all off tomorrow.

  311. It would really be sweet if RP won the Republican nomination, and then declined it at the convention and announced that he was running without any party affiliation.

    -jcr

  312. Ron Paul did fine. Better than fine because the rest were total suck-ups.

    The real highlights, though, were the camera close-ups of Mitt-reactions to hostile fire:

    Cross-eyed…confused…short-circuited…blank, frozen ass-faced expressions…(priceless!)

    P.S. Of course, the drooling Ghoul is ALWAYS the worst (that goes w/o saying)!

  313. Did you all catch Bill Richardson cringing and trying to pull away, when he was left standing on the stage with Ron Paul at the very tail end of the first half of the debates?

    It was priceless. Almost like “Oh shit, there’s Hillary talking with Rudy, McCain hugging Obama, and I’m stuck here talking with the crazy Doctor from Texas.”

  314. I was just making sure he didn’t fall down…his pants were down around his goddam ankles.

    All right, if I’m holding, then why don’t I know it? Hmm?

  315. I bet you’re pretty familiar with that response from people, aren’t you Eric?

  316. Did anybody else catch one of the candidates saying “we’ll miss you tomorrow” to RP after one of his remarks caused an uproar among them? I don’t remember exactly when, but I heard it loud and clear.

  317. I almost felt bad for Romney during that debate. As much as I hate John McCain, he relentlessly brutalized Romney. Heck, Romney even took a few shots from the Huckster of all people.

  318. It was McCain, jimmmydageek. Then the rest of the neocons yukked it up.

    I’m not voting for any of those chuckleheads once Paul drops out. They can all kiss my perky ass.

  319. Did you all catch Bill Richardson cringing and trying to pull away, when he was left standing on the stage with Ron Paul at the very tail end of the first half of the debates?

    Maybe he just felt unworthy of being in Dr Paul’s presence.

  320. It’s like the rush scene in Animal House.

    Bill Richardson finds his way into the room with Hillary and Obama, and someone comes along to escort him back into the room with the midget and the libertarian.

    Bill, you know Dennis and Dr. Paul…

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