Do Conservatives Think Bush Is an Idiot?

Increasingly they do, according to this Wash Post account, which leads with former conservative congressman Joe Scarborough (R-Fla.) turned little-watched cable yak show host:

For 10 minutes, the talk show host grilled his guests about whether "George Bush's mental weakness is damaging America's credibility at home and abroad." For 10 minutes, the caption across the bottom of the television screen read, "IS BUSH AN 'IDIOT'?"

But the host was no liberal media elitist. It was Joe Scarborough, a former Republican congressman turned MSNBC political pundit. And his answer to the captioned question was hardly "no." While other presidents have been called stupid, Scarborough said: "I think George Bush is in a league by himself. I don't think he has the intellectual depth as these other people."

Among the other cons suggesting that, while Bush might not be an idiot, he's really screwing the pooch in Iraq: Rich Lowry, Bill Buckley, and George Will. Still in the prez's corner (at least with regard to Iraq): Norman Podhoretz and Fred Barnes.

Whole thing here.

Comments

[SetUp]

Of course he's an idiot. I voted for him because Kerry was even idioter.

[Ashish George]

Kerry's idiocy would have been balanced by the opposing force of a Republican Congress's idiocy. Bush's idiocy is further idiotified by the same Congress.

[Former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-P]

he's really screwing the pooch in Iraq:

Is that legal in Iraq? I might have to change my vacation plans...

To ... avoid going there ... of course.

[Frank]

George W. Bush is the Woody Boyd to Karl Rove's Frazier Crane.

[Rick Barton]

Do Conservatives Think Bush Is an Idiot?

Whatever, he sure isn't a conservative.

[kwais]

"he's really screwing the pooch in Iraq"

Riiight.. because others would have done it better. The Israelis are really smart, but no not them, after 50 years they don't seem to be doing so well. Perhaps the Brits? Well no, they started the whole problem over there.

Kerry or someone else? I doubt it, specially after having heard him speak about it.

[scott]

This is disheartening commentary from a bunch of losers that are willing to start name calling because this war has lasted longer than one expisode of CSI. Bush has never said this war would be easy or fast. Conservative Republicans are cutting and running because they are willing to listen to the Drive-By Media and think defeat is all we can accomplish. Buck up you losers and get some back-bone. Quit listening to the nay-sayers and act like the majority.

[Jennifer]

Kwais, a president with sufficient IQ points might not have diddled with the evidence and started that war in the first place. Criticizing Bush for what's going on in Iraq is like criticizing someone who's trying to build a highway to the moon and doing a horrible job--it's not that I could do a better job building the Los Angeles/Sea of Tranquillity expressway; it's that I know enough to realize such a plan was never viable in the first place.

"We're going to invade a secularized Muslim nation, destroy the government and infrastructure, and our postwar plan consists of being greeted as liberators and having flowers tossed at us." That's working remarkably well, no?

[jf]

Conservative Republicans are cutting and running because they are willing to listen to the Drive-By Media and think defeat is all we can accomplish. Buck up you losers and get some back-bone. Quit listening to the nay-sayers and act like the majority.

I'd love to think this is sarcasm, but I kinda doubt it.

Cheer up, brother. Only 2.5 hours until Rush comes on.

[Jennifer]

Bush has never said this war would be easy or fast.

So when guys in the administration said things like "it'll be a cakewalk" or "it'll be over in a few months," Bush always ran to the podium and interrupted them to say "No it won't," eh?

[Johnny]

When you realize that one of the SCOTUS members appointed by fomer republicans believes that the US government does not derive its power from the constitution nor the declaration but from the Ten Commandments, how can we single Bush out as stupid? He is just a standard issue republican. Pro Theocracy, pro Facist (to avoid Goodwin think not of Germany, but instead compare to Italian of Spanish facism), anti-liberty.

Standard issue. Hasn't anyone been reading The National Review for the past 40 years? Limited use of nukes is cool, first strike is cool, the drug war is cool, federal control is cool.

Life, Libery and the pursuit of happiness....not so much.

[kwais]

Jen,
He is being compared to other contenders or holders of the office.

I don't think that they said that the war was a mistake in the beginning. They just say that now that it is popular to say so.

It seems like he had a lot of company thinking the highway to the moon could be built.

And we've already talked about the "secular Iraq not part of the terror network", and me and you disagree on that.

[Jennifer]

I don't think that they said that the war was a mistake in the beginning. They just say that now that it is popular to say so. It seems like he had a lot of company thinking the highway to the moon could be built.

Anybody who believed in that should be voted down. And I'm making no partisan distinction here; many Democrats are just as bad. A pox on both their houses.

And we've already talked about the "secular Iraq not part of the terror network", and me and you disagree on that.

Newly Islamic Iraq certainly makes contributions toward terror. You know what we ought to do? Find some country with a big-ass military and have them invade Iraq! You know, like how Israel did with Lebanon. The guys running Iraq right now are clearly doing a shit job.

At least the Israelis only spent a few weeks having their asses handed to them before they were smart enough to pull out. We're at forty months now, I think.

[Born Again Iconoclast]

Bush' problem is not "smartness" or "dumbness" but arrogance and a pathological egocentrism. His problems with domestic policy, Iraq, etc. are the result of his inability to consider outside information, or the possibility that he is infallible like us other mere mortals.

He can't open his mouth at any press opportunity without sounding like the most smug, arrogant frat boy, as if no one but him knows what is happening in the world.

[TrickyVic]

Claiming no one else could do it, is not an excuse for failure.

Who really knows if Kerry could have done better, he would have been handed a messy, screwed up war from day one. But Kerry does have combat experience something Bush does not. Often experience wins the day. If experience means anything, which it does, Kerry would be better than Bush with respects to war. Some people just hate Kerry and you can't convince them otherwise.

Iraq could have been handled better by anyone else who was willing to listen to Gen. Eric Shinski, the CIA, and other agencies about post war predictions. Bush's failure is a result of not listening to the experts whom the U.S. tax payer pays to assess and advise on these issues.

[TrickyVic]

"Bush has never said this war would be easy or fast. "

The Bush administration has admitted the war is taking longer than they thought it would.

[Ken]

Of course he is an idiot. I can't believe he was ever the nominee, but then I look at the Republican base (stem cells bad, creationism good, prayer can defeat hurricanes, interracial dating bad, etc) and it all makes sense...
It is RICH to see non-stop apologist Rich Lowry, or any of the current NRO's (except for Derbyshire, not perfect yes but at least able to stand up agains the line) start to act like he is a vertebrate.

[Mark VIII]

Buck up you losers and get some back-bone

YEEESSS SIIIRRR!!!!

Goddamit Private! Are those your testes hanging out the front of your combats!! That's no way to enter battle you goddamn moron. Now house your parts, grab your gun and lets get DEFCON 5 on these here middle easterns!

[thoreau]

Do Conservatives Think Bush Is an Idiot?

Well, everybody else sure does. About time that they jumped on the bandwagon.

[Jennifer]

The Bush administration has admitted the war is taking longer than they thought it would.

Once we'd passed the six-month mark with no glorious victory he didn't have much of a choice. Thing is, though, despite the fact that every single prediction the adminsitration made has turned out to be wrong--no cakewalk, no "six months and we're done," no "it won't cost us anything because Iraqi oil will pay for it"--they're still convinced this was a good idea. Based on what evidence--Bush's faith in God? More likely, Bush's faith that anything he wants to do will turn out right because he wants to do it.

Maybe we should consider the possibility that we're just not strong enough to twist the entire world into the shape we find most pleasing, and should stop behaving as though we are.

[John DeWitt]

Conservative Republicans are cutting and running because they are willing to listen to the Drive-By Media and think defeat is all we can accomplish. Buck up you losers and get some back-bone. Quit listening to the nay-sayers and act like the majority.

I didn't know H&R had a Rush Limbaugh wing. The best solution to the nation's problems is for all the "losers" (definition - those who don't get their opinions implanted by talk radio) to "act like the majority?" Whenever I catch myself acting like the majority - whatever that is - I take a shower and try to get over it.

Is Bush an idiot? I don't know; never met him. He certainly doesn't go to any lengths to publicly not act like an idiot. But that's not what scares me. Any one person can be a fool, and not do much damage. The scary thing is when that fool can gather a bunch of other power-mad fools around him until his word becomes law, and "the majority" all claps and says, "Say, nice outfit the emperor has on today, doncha think?"

[SR]

"George W. Bush is the Woody Boyd to Karl Rove's Frazier Crane."

Would that make Dick Cheney Sam Malone?

[kwais]

"At least the Israelis only spent a few weeks having their asses handed to them before they were smart enough to pull out."

Or 50 years, depending on how you look at it.

[Mike]

George W. Bush is the Woody Boyd to Karl Rove's Frazier Crane."

Would that make Dick Cheney Sam Malone?

Actually, I think Cheney would be Cliff Claven...

It's not what he doesn't know that's the problem, it's what he knows that ain't so.
(Mark Twain, I think.)

[fyodor]

they're still convinced this was a good idea. Based on what evidence--Bush's faith in God?

I'm no fan of Bush. But seriously, politicians very rarely ever admit mistakes. And there are practical reasons for administration officials to not be saying that having put soldiers in harm's way was a mistake while soldiers are still in harm's way. Now I'm not saying any of this puts Bush above criticism. But I think there are better ways to analyze this than suggesting the whole administration is blinded by religious wackoness.

[kwais]

"But Kerry does have combat experience something Bush does not.

Well if it came to shooting an unarmed teenager in the back, or nominating himself for medals, I am sure Kerry would have done much better.

"raq could have been handled better by anyone else who was willing to listen to Gen. Eric Shinski, the CIA, and other agencies about post war predictions

I doubt it

"Maybe we should consider the possibility that we're just not strong enough to twist the entire world into the shape we find most pleasing, and should stop behaving as though we are."

I consider that the alternative of not going to war, was worst than going to war. Therefore it was the right decision. And it still is.

I couldn't tell you if Bush is smart or if he is an idiot and his handlers are smart. He got elected twice. I don't know that I can.

As far as the war goes, I haven't heard any alternatives from anyone that I think are better. and I have been searching, because it hurts me what is happening to people and their families that I like.

[Ayn_Randian]

At least the Israelis only spent a few weeks having their asses handed to them

First of all, what evidence do you have for this? What were the casualty rates of the combatants in the current conflict? What's your definition of losing, and why do you think that Israel fits it and Hezbollah does not?

And I think it's strange you said that they pulled out when I seem to have read something about warplanes shrieking overhead coupled with a commando raid...yep, sounds like they left with their tails between their legs.....Or not. And Jennifer, I wouldn't call five weeks a "few"...sounds more like "over a month" to me.

[Lamar]

"He is being compared to other contenders or holders of the office."

Kwais: The title of the freakin' article is whether conservatives think Bush is an idiot. He is being judged by his own party. Do you think Scarborough is going to vote for a Democrat such as Kerry or Gore? No. Bush isn't being compared to other contenders or holders of the office. Even if he were, he fails miserably, but this is purely about Republicans saying, yeah, Bush is a moron. And in case you forgot, something neocons are great at, intelligent GOPers voted for Bush because of the team he would put together. His idiocy was always an issue. So, while you can point elsewhere or blame Bush's jackassery on the one-armed man, the truth is that this post is about a conservative realization that your man is a freaking idiot and should never have been elected. It isn't a comparison with Kerry, or anyone else who actually served the country.

"Well if it came to shooting an unarmed teenager in the back, or nominating himself for medals, I am sure Kerry would have done much better."
No matter how you denigrate Kerry's service to the nation, the fact is that he went to war while George W. Bush snorted cocaine, got drunk off his cocker, played grabass, drove drunk, went AWOL, and defended all this my having sleazy henchmen, like yourself, highlight what may or may not have happened to people who actually go to war.

[Jennifer]

What's your definition of losing, and why do you think that Israel fits it and Hezbollah does not?

Israel's stated goal was to destroy Hezbollah. This did not happen.

I wouldn't call five weeks a "few"...sounds more like "over a month" to me.

"Five" doesn't count as "a few?" You're showing an unusual fondness for semantic bullshit today.

[Jennifer]

What's your definition of losing, and why do you think that Israel fits it and Hezbollah does not?

Israel's stated goal was to destroy Hezbollah. This did not happen.

I wouldn't call five weeks a "few"...sounds more like "over a month" to me.

"Five" doesn't count as "a few?" You're showing an unusual fondness for semantic bullshit today.

[Jon H]

"Well if it came to shooting an unarmed teenager in the back, or nominating himself for medals, I am sure Kerry would have done much better."

Whereas Bush's experience is in killing people who are unarmed and strapped down.

[Jon H]

kwais writes: "I consider that the alternative of not going to war, was worst than going to war. Therefore it was the right decision. And it still is."

So you were in favor of abandoning the real war on terror in favor of a utopian scheme unrelated to the war on terror?

[thoreau]

No doubt the server squirrels will eat this post for lunch, but I have to take lamar to task: kwais is not a sleazy henchman.

[stats]

58.4% of Lamar's posts have the word grabass in them. 38% have logic in them. Not a good ratio.

[SR]

"Actually, I think Cheney would be Cliff Claven."

Really? I don't see it. Can we agree that Condoleeza Rice is Carla?

[Ayn_Randian]

wow thoreau, way to really lay into him. Be careful you don't get irrational now!

[TrickyVic]

""But Kerry does have combat experience something Bush does not.

Well if it came to shooting an unarmed teenager in the back, or nominating himself for medals, I am sure Kerry would have done much better.""

This is a very narrow, uneducated, view of what Kerry did in Vietnam, it seems you only listen to the Swiftboat version and don't care about anything else. The Navy, not Kerry, awarded himself and the other "swiftboat veterns" their medals but the swiftboaters only complained about Kerrys medals, not their own. If they truly believed Kerry's report was faked, they should surrender their own medals.

Obviously you don't value education and experience since you do not belive someone listening to those who are more educated or experienced could have done better.

[Jon H]

"Really? I don't see it. Can we agree that Condoleeza Rice is Carla?"

No way! She's Diane.

[TrickyVic]

Israel's first objective was to get its kidnapped soldiers back. That did not happen. No one paying attention to the facts could conclude Israel was victorious.

No soldiers returned. Hezbollah is still armed and dangerous.

No objective achieved = victory
Doublespeak at it's finest.
I guess Bush is preparing us for "victory" in Iraq.

[H.L. Mencken (from beyond the]

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

[MUTT]

from above:"... and think defeat is all we can accomplish. Buck up you losers and get some back-bone. Quit listening to the nay-sayers and act like the majority. "
Uh- is that the same as "marching like the lemmings"?

[kwais]

Lamar,
I heard that stuff about Kerry long before he was running against Bush.

And if the people, including conservatives that say that he hasn't the intellectual depth, because of Iraq. I imagine they are comparing him to other presidents, or contenders to the presidency, and not comparing him to Jesus of Nasareth or the ideal atheist proto human leader of men.

[Allen]

"Bush has never said this war would be easy or fast."

They didn't put it on billboards but many in the administration believed that it would be. In fact their planning was such with at one point right after the fall of Bagdad Gen. Frank flying over there and telling his top generals they should be ready to pull out in the next 6 weeks (or something like that). They honestly thought they could swoop in, give Sadam the boot, and quickly pull back and let the Iraqi government run the show. Michael Gordon writes about it in Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq.

[some guy]

I didn't know H&R had a Rush Limbaugh wing.

And you apparently didn't know it includes the writers.

"Phony baloney plastic banana good time rock n rollers...."

[some guy]

I didn't know H&R had a Rush Limbaugh wing.

And you apparently didn't know it includes the writers.

"Phony baloney plastic banana good time rock n rollers...."

[kwais]

Lamar,
I heard that stuff about Kerry long before he was running against Bush.

And if the people, including conservatives that say that he hasn't the intellectual depth, because of Iraq. I imagine they are comparing him to other presidents, or contenders to the presidency, and not comparing him to Jesus of Nasareth or the ideal atheist proto human leader of men.

[TrickyVic]

Israel's first objective was to get its kidnapped soldiers back. That did not happen. No one paying attention to the facts could conclude Israel was victorious.

No soldiers returned. Hezbollah is still armed and dangerous.

No objective achieved = victory
Doublespeak at it's finest.
I guess Bush is preparing us for "victory" in Iraq.

[Jon H]

When Bush has talked about a long, hard fight he was probably saying so in reference to the war on terror, as part of the campaign to muddle the war on terror and the war in Iraq.

[highnumber]

"George W. Bush is the Woody Boyd to Karl Rove's Frazier Crane."

Would that make Dick Cheney Sam Malone?

Somehow, I think that makes Dan Quayle "Coach."

and could Ann Coulter be "Diane"?
I know that's really stretching since she isn't in the administration, but, come on, she's a shrill blonde know-it-all. I think it's perfect.

[Warren]

I'm no fan of Bush. But seriously, politicians very rarely ever admit mistakes.

That is so. However, a politician's supporters are usually quick to dump him when things go badly. What makes Bush unusual is the way his supporters stood by him even as he broke every promise and everything he said turned out to be wrong.

Bush an idiot? Too many of his fishing buddies back in Crawford are buying bigger yachts for that to be true. It's all the people that don't recognize pure evil when they see it that are the idiots.

[Seamus]

Standard issue. Hasn't anyone been reading The National Review for the past 40 years? Limited use of nukes is cool, first strike is cool, the drug war is cool, federal control is cool.

Well, to give the devil his due, NR has most emphatically *not* been saying the drug war is cool.

[SR]

"Really? I don't see it. Can we agree that Condoleeza Rice is Carla?"

"No way! She's Diane."

But Rice is still part of the cast. Powell would be a better choice for Diane since he left and had a tortured relationship with Sam/Cheney. Can we get buy-in on Rumsfeld = Norm Peterson?

[lamar]

Rough crowd today. I've been busted for hyperbole again. Thoreau, go ahead and take me to task, but I can't accept the tactic of criticizing person B as a defense to person A's shortcomings. Perhaps it was merely an oversight on Kwais's part, and I apologize for calling him/her a sleazy henchman. It turns out that Kwais only "imagined" that this Republican self assessment had something to do with John Kerry and the Swiftboaties, so I thank him/her for at least admitting that. It's sort of like how I "imagined" that grabass was a funny word...

[Just Wanted To See This Again]

"Well if it came to shooting an unarmed teenager in the back, or nominating himself for medals, I am sure Kerry would have done much better."

[Jon H]

(I think it's time for the squirrels to be swapped out for some new Core Duo squirrels.)

SR writes: "But Rice is still part of the cast. Powell would be a better choice for Diane since he left and had a tortured relationship with Sam/Cheney. Can we get buy-in on Rumsfeld = Norm Peterson?"

Um. Cheers has been off the air for years. NOBODY is still part of that cast. Thus, we're free to posit the Bush administration as the Cheers cast at any stage, not just the cast at the end of the run.

There's just nobody but Diane who fits. Just the way Condi often answers a question starting with "As a student of history...", it seems like something the aggressively erudite Diane would have said. Also, I vaguely recall Diane playing the piano.

Carla... Hm. That'd have to be Tony Snow, who's become something of a wiseass lately.

Rumsfeld would have to be Coach! Who else has that air of senility?

Lilith = Karen Hughes.

Dunno who Norm would be.

[Mustafa Shag]

Pure evil? Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and yes, Hussein, qualify for that category. But Bush? I'm far from being his cheerleader, but that's quite a sliding scale for evil you've got there. "My momma always said, 'Reason comment boards are like a box of chocolates..."

[Cab]

To think that Kerry's 30 days in 'Nam, however heroic, gives him some sort of advantage to better be able to understand world politics some 40 years later is just silly. It was a stint in the service for a brief period of time, dude. Valuing experience if fine, but lets not overvalue it. Jees.

[John in Nashville]

I initially thought of a snarky comment positing Forrest Gump as Commander-in-chief. I then realized that such a comparison is unfair--Forrest Gump had integrity and served courageously and honorably in combat.

[Jon H]

"To think that Kerry's 30 days in 'Nam, however heroic, gives him some sort of advantage to better be able to understand world politics some 40 years later is just silly."

Hell, it took Bush more than 40 years just to reach the verge of adulthood.

[TrickyVic]

""To think that Kerry's 30 days in 'Nam, however heroic, gives him some sort of advantage to better be able to understand world politics some 40 years later is just silly.""

You don't need to understand world politics as much as you need to understand who, and who not, to listen to.

I believe someone with combat experience will have a better bullshit detector when a crappy war plan is presented to them than someone who has no combat experience.

[Ken]

I think its remarkable there are still folks who parrot the swiftboat line. How does it feel to be an actual tool?
I'm also glad to see someone brought up the Israel situation, one of my favorite rants. They broke the cease-fire over the weekend. Gotta love the peace-loving IDF!

[Jennifer]

To think that Kerry's 30 days in 'Nam, however heroic, gives him some sort of advantage to better be able to understand world politics some 40 years later is just silly

True. But those 30 days might have helped him realize what Bush apparently did not--that war is horrible enough to be used only as a last resort, when absolutely necessary, rather than rushed into with an unprepared army based on a lot of false evidence.

[Aresen]

Bush plays dumb to appeal to the yokels. It is cold, calculated politics.

However, as any actor knows, if you play a role long enough, you run the risk of becoming the role.

[Warren]

Definitive metaphor

George Bush = Woody
Karl Rove = Frasier
Paul Wolfowitz = Lillith
Condolisa Rice = Diane
Donald Rumsfeld = Cliff
Dick Cheney = Sam
John Ashcroft = Norm
Alberto Gonzales = Carla
Colin Powel = Coach

[SR]

"Definitive metaphor: Alberto Gonzales = Carla"

Would that make John Yoo = Nick Tortelli (Carla's ex-husband)?

[APL]

Iraq could have been handled better by anyone else who was willing to listen to Gen. Eric Shinski, the CIA, and other agencies about post war predictions. Bush's failure is a result of not listening to the experts whom the U.S. tax payer pays to assess and advise on these issues.
No, our failure in Iraq is because we didn't plan to reconstruct Iraq. While the war had numerous supporters (like Douglas Feith) who weren't necessarily that bright, I have trouble thinking that Rumsfeld was one of them. As Shinseki pointed out before stepping down, we didn't have enough troops to properly occupy Iraq, and wouldn't without a draft. I think that the actual plan was to go in, wreck the Iraqi military and find weapons of mass destruction, thereby putting the fear of God into Iran. However, we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction, so now we're stuck with an undermanned reconstruction as a fall-back justification for the war. The reason that the reconstruction isn't going well is because we didn't intend to do it from the start, and are now having to half-ass it because the American public would never support the manpower requirements that would be required to do it properly.
The mishandling of the Iraq invasion isn't an example of individual stupidity so much as institutional stupidity.

[MUTT]

kerry was in country, in a very dangerous job, for more than 30 days. Take it or leave it, I was in VN, in a kinda dangerous job, and then in VVAW, where I most certainly remember Kerry. Didnt like him then, dont like him now. The Swift Boat tools are beyond any belief, however. "Shot an unarmed kid in the back"? chased into the thickets/jungle a guy who popped off a RPG at his boat. A kid defending his country from foriegn invaders/;occupiers. I dont like the guy, but he did his bit. Unlike a Nimitiz size bargeload of chickenhawks.

[clamflat]

Shouldn't Colin Powell be cast as Cheers' Paul? You know the barfly who was there for the first couple of seasons, he didn't get any puchlines but he set up Norm, Cliff,and Carla for the zingers.

[TJIT]

Bush may be an idiot and a poor excuse for a conservative. However, (as Kwais points out up thread) The average conservative or libertarian voter did not have a choice between a conservative or non conservative. They had a choice between George Bush and John Kerry.

With the exception of the war in Iraq I can't think of any issue that John Kerry had a more conservative or libertarian stance then George Bush did. George Bush has bloated the size of government entitlement programs beyond recognition. John Kerry and the democrats complained that his programs were not big enough.

The argument that John Kerry and the democrats would be any better then the Bush on civil liberties is also pretty suspect. When the heat was on the democrats could only come up with one person in the senate to vote against the patriot act, Russ Feingold. Given the Passage of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform act (excuse incumbent protection act)it would appear his (and the democratic party's) commitment to civil liberties is wafer thin at best.

[TJIT]

It is always entertaining to replow the well plowed but never boring field of opinions on the war in Iraq.

There is a lot of hindsight bias in this exercise so lets examine some of the commonly suggested alternatives to invading Iraq.

1. Do nothing.

Tried, results: attacks on Iran, and Kuwait, hundreds of thousands of deaths, major threats to a substantial portion of the worlds oil supply, the first coalition invasion of Iraq, and the basing of US troops in Saudi Arabia to protect that country from saddam. The presence of those infidel troops in the land of Mecca and Medina was one of the main reasons Osama had his underwear in a bunch in the first place.

2. Use sanctions

Tried, results: Thousands of sanctions related deaths in Iraq, and saddam was still in power. He was using corruption of the oil for food program to get money into Iraq to support himself.

Furthermore there was substantial pressures to lift the sanctions for humanitarian (dead children) and commercial (lots of potential arm sales and commercial business between Iraq and china, france and Russia) and the chances of the sanctions outlasting saddam were pretty close to zero.

3. Invade Iraq, topple Saddam and leave

Tried (in afghanistan with the soviets), results: Taliban and a nice home base for Osama. A gaping hole in the New York skyline would later give a graphic example of why that is not a good policy.

The lesson to be learned is that failed states can be very dangerous. They are particularly dangerous when they provide time, space,and privacy that allows terrorists to plan and implement there attacks.

3. Better internal security and policing.

If the sentence "better internal security and policing" does not make the hair on the back of a libertarians neck stand up nothing will:-)

Obviously lots of concerns about the erosion of civil liberties and boondoggle spending. Both problems are nicely shown by Radley Balko's articles on the department of homeland security buying armored personnel carriers for swat teams in small towns.

The bigger problem is the fact that there are too many soft targets and easy ways to cause mass casualty attacks for policing to be able to stop them. In a way we have been lucky that the terror types are drawn to air transport because that is where we have lots of security in place.

We all know how effectively the police are able to keep drugs from getting into the US. That provides all the illustration needed of the futility of using only domestic security to fight terror attacks.

We should be squeezing the Saudi's to stop using their oil money to fund the spread of wahhabi fundamentalism around the globe. The saudi's and their oil money is the root of many of the terror problems around the world today.

[Lamar]

TJIT:
"Hindsight bias" is only for people who changed their minds. Those of us against the war from the start are suffering from more of an "I told you so, you freakin' idiots" bias.

[LoafingOaf]

On what basis am I to believe Nick Gillespie is not an idiot? Let's see, he used to ghost write an Alyssa Milano column...and what? I seriously doubt Nick Gillepsie could demonstrate he's more intelligent than Bush, but I know it's the popular fashion of fools to call Bush a fool.

Whatever the case...Nick is not the most honest person:

Among the other cons suggesting that, while Bush might not be an idiot, he's really screwing the pooch in Iraq: Rich Lowry, Bill Buckley, and George Will. Still in the prez's corner (at least with regard to Iraq): Norman Podhoretz and Fred Barnes.

The way he uses the word "still" is purposely deceptive.

It's deceptive because Bill Buckley never supported toppling Saddam Hussein, and George Will never was an enthusiast about it either, tey that word "still is implying they had a changing of the mind. (I can't speak to Rich Lowry because I pay no attention to him.)

It's purposely deceptive because I sure do not believe Nick Gillepsie was unaware of Bill Buckley's opposition to the liberation of Iraq from the beginning.

[LoafingOaf]

TYPO CORRECTION: It's deceptive because Bill Buckley never supported toppling Saddam Hussein, and George Will never was an enthusiast about it either. The way he uses the word "still" is implying they had a changing of the mind. (I can't speak to Rich Lowry because I pay no attention to him.)