When Is Hate Speech Funny?

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Like Feministe, I've always found it a little odd to read nominal progressives in the blogosphere offering attacks like… well, I'll just quote:

Jeff Goldstein is a paste-eating 'tard. Ann Coulter is an anorexic cunt with an Adam's apple. Hey Michelle Malkin, me love you long time!

Something else I've noticed, that may explain what's up with that: Some of my liberal friends—people I'm as sure as one can be have not a homophobic bone in their bodies—will use "fag" as a casual pejorative (though never directed at an actual gay person except by another gay person); the conservatives and libertarians I know never will. This seems (and seemed to me) strange on face, but I think it makes sense for two reasons.

First, at least among people who know him, the progressive can probably be relatively confident that the hateful views we associate with that term aren't going to be imputed to him. The conservative (I'm talking about the sort of conservative I'm capable of being friends with here, which excludes the actual bigots) will probably be acutely aware that there are plenty of conservatives who harbor those views, and especially keen not to be mistaken for one of them. Think of how you'll find people who know each other well making tongue-in-cheek jokes based on each other's race or religion or orientation or whatever that they wouldn't dream of uttering in a public setting. (In a weird way, the ability to exchange such "offensive" jokes is a sign of friendship: If someone you'd known for a long time never prodded you or had fun at your expense or generally gave you shit, you might take it as a kind of formality suggesting a lack of closeness. (Update: Commenter JK points to a Slavoj Zizek interview with some interesting thoughts in this vein.)

Second, one reason that jokes like that are actually funny—one reason the South Park kids' "Jew" and "fat fuck" banter works, or at least worked when the show debuted—was that because they're rooted in genuinely offensive attitudes, they still retain the power to shock that's necessary for that kind of humor. "Fucker" and "shithead," while more likely to raise hackles at the FCC, wouldn't have the same frission, because what you're actually going to laugh at has to at least flirt with the violation of your own taboos. My recollection (I'm too lazy to check this now) is that the evolutionary function of laughter is to serve as a kind of "all clear" signal in the face of apparent danger. Somone tickles you—but it's not a real attack, though it might look like one—and we laugh. Most verbal jokes turn on either some kind of reversal of expectations or the harmless violation of taboo; slapstick is all about the appearance of injury without actual harm. Someone stubbing her toe isn't funny; someone falling and cracking her skull isn't funny; someone doing a wild pratfall, then sitting up shaking her head, dazed but unharmed, might be hilarious. The more dramatic the pratfall, the funnier it is when it proves to be harmless; the stronger the taboo, the more potential humor in its ("harmless") violation.

So it seems like you might find racist/religious/sexist/etc epithets or jokes in two very different kinds of context: First, sincerely, among actual racists, sexists, and other bigots. Second, in groups where there's a strong taboo against those actual attitudes, but the people communicating are sufficiently confident of themselves and each other on that score that boundary-pushing results in that all-clear humor reaction. The problem on the Internet, of course, is that you often end up with a forum that feels like a small close knit community but is actually available to thousands of casual readers—a tension I expect we'll be negotiating for a long while yet. Anyway, that might be one reason you find the kind of rhetoric the Feministe folk were so appalled by in particular among the blogs and chat boards of the left, where people are both especially likely to be conscious of speech taboos and confident that everyone's actually got the right sorts of views. [Cross-posted @ NftL]

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  1. You are so full of meekrob

  2. Just as an example: My grandmother is german. She grew up post-WW1 and lived through WW2, and snuck out of Soviet-occupied East German, married my grandfather (an American serviceman stationed there in the 50s) and ultimately ended up here with their two children. Her father ended up in a camp at one point (I believe he was accused of running communist propaganda) and later got sent to fight the Americans (don’t send a suspected communist sympathizer to fight the Russians.) and promptly surrendered.

    We make a TON of very tasteless jokes about Nazis and the Holocaust. But only in private, and only because they are so very, very funny.

  3. Julian, the assumption that no liberal would ever be bigoted, and that many conservatives are bigoted, is not one that I would care to test in the real world.

    In my experience, liberals have many of the same bigoted assumptions and reflexes as anyone less “enlightened.” They just feel bad about it. So just because a liberal feels comfortable that no one will call him out for saying someone is a fag, doesn’t mean he isn’t using the term with pejorative intent.

    Second, in groups where there’s a strong taboo against those actual attitudes, but the people communicating are sufficiently confident of themselves and each other on that score that boundary-pushing results in that all-clear humor reaction.

    Or because in progressive circles, being “transgressive” and “challenging” is so highly valued that it trumps the taboo against calling people fags and niggers. In fact, doing so not only gives you transgressive cred, it is a way of claiming that you are so pure of heart that every word falling from your lips is purged of hateful, pejorative meaning.

  4. JS, you just say this stuff cuz you’re a wetback. Or beaner. Take your choice.

  5. I have a Hispanic roommate and an Asian friend, and when we are hanging out and stuff, we constantly make fun of each other’s races.

    They return the favor by making fun of my ethnicity (Irish) and others, like German and Russian.

    To this date, no race riots have broken out in my apartment.

    The unfortunate side effect is that I don’t think much of cracking jokes about, say, the Chinese building the railroads. This can be dangerous in different company, who are not “in” on the joke.

    I’ve said this before on this board: The world would be a far better if more people were able to laugh at themselves.

  6. “In my experience, liberals have many of the same bigoted assumptions and reflexes as anyone less “enlightened.””

    Sure, just ask your friendly neighborhood liberal what they think about conservatives and religious people.

  7. “Julian, the assumption that no liberal would ever be bigoted, and that many conservatives are bigoted, is not one that I would care to test in the real world.”

    That’s not what I said. I said someone who’s identified as a progressive is less likely to worry about being perceived as bigoted than a conservative. I don’t think there’s any doubt that’s generally true.

  8. When Is Hate Speech Funny?

    When it’s directed at politicians or fat people.

  9. The whales were all Nazis! They were at the Nuremberg rallies, mate. They were all whales.

    What, they were tried at the Nuremberg trial?

    No, they were whales at the rallies. Hitler, Hitler was talking to whales.

    Well, that doesn’t make them more intelligent cos, er, Hitler lost, didn’t he?

  10. By all rights Man Coulter should be a ranting to herself on a streetcorner and Malkin should be dancing on a pole in Bangcock or wherever the hell she’s from. But they’re millionares. So it’s not like you’re making fun of some tard in a wheelchair or something.

  11. Do you hear how Hellen Keller burned her ear?

    She answered the iron.

  12. I don’t know if either the attacks on Coulter or malkin can be attributed to racism/sexism directly nor to friendly banter amongst those that understand. Since those that send these attacks aren’t on friendly banter terms with the targets and the fact that these are often used in emails to the targets that are available to their understanding friends.

    I think a different type of thing is going on in their heads that allows for such attacks. The have determined that those that they attack are beneath contempt and no longer deserving of any common decency. Once your opponent is no longer fully human, any attack is acceptable and doesn’t imply that you are a racist.

  13. I know, Julian. I didn’t say you were making the assumption that liberal/progressives were Pure at Heart. That’s why I didn’t quote you to that effect.

    That’s an assumption liberal/progressives make about themselves, or, perhaps more accurately, that’s how they act amongst themselves, hoping to (a) fool others into believing its true and/or (b) make it so by pretending it is so.

  14. I’m going to make an assumption that a blog called Feministe is primarily run by women. That said, it’s worth pointing out that the type of humor you’re talking about is more acceptable in male groups than it is in female ones. Like your analysis of why and how it happens, though!

  15. And again, I ask, who will front me the money to open Spick Mick Wop’s Mexican/Irish/Italian eatery?

  16. Hey Taktix, you know she burned her other ear? They called back.

  17. Once your opponent is no longer fully human

    …is a frightening way to think.

  18. Malkin should be dancing on a pole in Bangcock or wherever the hell she’s from.

    Explain to me again how this isn’t hateful?

  19. Why would Helen Keller even attempt to answer a phone? How would she know it was ringing?

    I think you might have meant Stevie Wonder.

  20. Here’s Slavoj Zizek:

    Another thing that bothers me about this multiculturalism is when people ask me: ‘How can you be sure that you are not a racist?’ My answer is that there is only one way. If I can exchange insults, brutal jokes, dirty jokes, with a member of a different race and we both know it’s not meant in a racist way. If, on the other hand, we play this politically correct game – ‘Oh, I respect you, how interesting your customs are’ – this is inverted racism, and it is disgusting.

    In the Yugoslav army where we were all of mixed nationalities, how did I become friends with Albanians? When we started to exchange obscenities, sexual innuendo, jokes. This is why this politically correct respect is just, as Freud put it, ‘zielgehemmt’. You still have the aggression towards the other.

    For me there is one measure of true love: you can insult the other. Like in that horrible German comedy film from 1943 where Marika R?ck treats her fianc? very brutally. This fianc? is a rich, important person, so her father asks her why are you treating him like that. And she gives the right answer. She says: ‘But I love him, and since I love him, I can do with him whatever I want.’ That’s the truth of it. If there is true love, you can say horrible things and anything goes.

    When multiculturalists tell you to respect the others, I always have this uncanny association that this is dangerously close to how we treat our children: the idea that we should respect them, even when we know that what they believe is not true. We should not destroy their illusions. No, I think that others deserve better – not to be treated like children.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D2C4.htm

  21. “Malkin should be dancing on a pole in Bangcock or wherever the hell she’s from”

    That is without a doubt the most disgusting and hateful comment I have ever read on a Reason thread and I have read a lot of them. The fact that RC Dean was the only one who picked up on it is pretty disapointing.

  22. Explain to me again how this isn’t hateful?

    I x-rayed the bones. Liberal bones. With my mind. No hate-bone.

  23. That’s right.
    The correct spelling is bangkok.

  24. The comments thread is humorous on that Feministe piece. A tangent develops to try and find the best insult for Ann Coulter without making fun of any groups (other than republicans). I suppose this would be easier than offering criticism of anything she says.

    But my favorite comment, said with complete and utter sincerity, is from Thomas:

    “I?m really sorry. Patriarchy is everyone?s problem, and it?s my fault, and you?ve suffered from it, and I?m sorry.”

  25. RC: I’m willing to bet many of Malkin’s own fans want to see her nekked…

  26. JK,

    I agree with you completely. Most liberals look at minority groups as children in need of guidance and any white person who is not a part of polite society and doesn’t hold the correct views as even lower and something less than human and unworthy of even being patronized the way minorities are.

  27. Still doesn’t make the comment appropriate —
    you don’t have to refer to her nationality to insult her, “dumbass” works just fine — I’m just sayin’.

  28. Gimme Back My Dog,

    The fact that she’s deaf it part of the joke…

    John,

    By no means defending what is a very hateful comment, but isn’t the whole idea of this thread about hateful comments?

    We’ve got tard jokes, Hellen Keller jokes, fat people jokes, etc.
    Without this precedent, I don’t think someone (Trolls excluded) would really mean such a hateful thing.

  29. Q:What have we learned here?

    A:That only white people can be racists?

  30. Taktix,

    Maybe there was some irony going on there that I wasn’t bright enough to pick up on. Irony is pretty easy to loose on the printed page. If so, my apologies to the author. But, it sure looked to me like the post was serious.

  31. Morat20,

    I don’t really appreciate the humor you find in WWII, private or not. My grandfather died in a German prison camp.

  32. It does remind me somewhat of the kerfuffle kicked up when Ted Danson did that blackface gag for Whoopy Goldberg. I can just imagine how that started.
    “No no, trust me. It’s going to be funny!”

  33. He fell out of a guard tower.

  34. A tangent develops to try and find the best insult for Ann Coulter without making fun of any groups (other than republicans). I suppose this would be easier than offering criticism of anything she says.

    What??? Criticizing ANYTHING she says is like shooting fish in a barrel — way too fucking easy!

    Most liberals look at minority groups as children in need of guidance

    As opposed to most conservatives who look at everyone as heathens in need of guidance and a morality lesson.

    I love it when conservatives call out liberals for treating people like children, when a whole fucking plank in the GOP platform is telling americans what appropriate morals / values that laws should be based upon.

    Maybe some people should remove the beam from their own eyes before making broad sweeping generalizations about others?

  35. Look, I have no problem conceding that all people, liberals included, have some racism in them. I know African Americans who cross the street away from other African Americans. It happens. And there’s every reason to condemn liberals who use racist/sexist epithets to condemn hate-mongers like Coulter and Malkin (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-koppelman/michelle-malkins-white-s_b_20873.html) for using racism and sexism.

    But your kind of reasoning, Julian, is ludicrous. You’re equating Malkin – a Fox News contributor and the most popular conservative blogger in the country – and Coulter – a best-selling author, keynote speaker at CPAC and frequent guest on just about every TV show imaginable – with PEOPLE WHO COMMENT ON BLOGS. I dunno, I think I have a healthy self-image, but don’t you think Malkin and Coulter are just a wee bit more significant in the scheme of things?

  36. Seriously, if you guys like this kind of humor, you are going to flippin’ love the upcoming Sarah Silverman show on Comedy Central. Its creative core is Silverman herself plus Rob Schrab and Dan Harmon, the guys behind Heat Vision & Jack, not to mention SCUD: The Disposable Assassin and the absolutely charming Channel 101 festival series.

    When I was working at a talent management office I had a chance to read the pilot script, and it was hilarious. Off the top of my head, it made fun of kids with cancer, jews, the holocaust, whites, homeless vietnam veterans, asian immigrant storekeepers, blacks, the weelchair-bound, god’s dick, and incest, in roughly that order.

  37. Malkin should be dancing on a pole in Bangcock or wherever the hell she’s from” That is without a doubt the most disgusting and hateful comment I have ever read on a Reason thread

    It certainly is. As a former stripper who’s danced on a few poles in my time (though all-American poles, none of those scary Asian ones), I deeply resent the insinuation that some vile racist internment-justifying bitch has anything in common with me and my former colleagues.

    The proper statement is “Malkin should be polishing a pole in Bangkok or wherever she’s from.”

  38. But your kind of reasoning, Julian, is ludicrous. You’re equating Malkin – a Fox News contributor and the most popular conservative blogger in the country – and Coulter – a best-selling author, keynote speaker at CPAC and frequent guest on just about every TV show imaginable – with PEOPLE WHO COMMENT ON BLOGS. I dunno, I think I have a healthy self-image, but don’t you think Malkin and Coulter are just a wee bit more significant in the scheme of things?

    Speaking only as a commenter on blogs, no.

  39. I’d like the record to reflect that all of my insults directed at Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter have been sex/race/religion neutral.

  40. “That is without a doubt the most disgusting and hateful comment I have ever read on a Reason thread and I have read a lot of them.”

    you need to hit the archives, bruh.

    though it’s definitely in the top 50.

  41. Alright Jennifer, were you really a stripper or are you just saying that for dramatic effect?

  42. Most liberals look at minority groups as children in need of guidance

    Even liberals who are…members of minority groups? Cause there are a few of those, y’know.

    Maybe you guys should consider that you’re doing the same thing to liberals that you’re accusing liberals of doing to those whom they’re accusing of doing the same thing as you’re accusing them of doing…

    Well, you know what I mean!

  43. I have heard hateful jokes told by lefty types, with politically correct identifiers inserted where, in the original joke, one would assume, there would have been an ethnic slur. …and it seemed funny, not because of the generalizations the joke made about any ethnicity, but because of what it suggested about the joke teller–that he was a racist in spite of himself.

  44. Even liberals who are…members of minority groups?

    Sad to say but some people DO like to be infantilized. For one, it’s a convenient way to avoid personal responsibility.

  45. You are right Russ 2000. Also I think it is easier to be a liberal than a conservative if you are a minority. If you are a conservative minority, the left feels it can take free riegn to throw every racist stereotype and insult in the book at you.

  46. “You’re equating Malkin…and Coulter…with PEOPLE WHO COMMENT ON BLOGS.”

    Umm… I did what? Where? I don’t even know what this is referring to; I didn’t make any connection between them at all, except that the quotes from Feministing used comments *about* them as examples.

  47. ChicagoTom,

    Even if you are right about the right, why does that fact make it any less true that the left views minorities as children? “You To!!” is not an arguement.

    As far as equating posters on blogs with known figures like Malkin and Coulter, Kos has said worse things than Malkin or Coulter and seems to do quite well. Not that that excuses Malkin and Coulter, but this kind of garbage is not confined to blog postings or high profile people on the right.

  48. Sad to say but some people DO like to be infantilized.

    Good thing we can tell who they are by their political opinions.

  49. The proper statement is “Malkin should be polishing a pole in Bangkok or wherever she’s from.”

    Ah yes. The laugh so loud that everyone in the office knows you aren’t working, or even thinking about work.

    Thanks Jen!

  50. “That is without a doubt the most disgusting and hateful comment I have ever read on a Reason thread and I have read a lot of them.”

    Get real. It was funny, given the context.

    Lighten up people. Make fun of each other and relax. Life becomes easier when you’re all laughing at each other.

  51. In my experience, if you disagree with a liberal’s views then you are fair game for any type of insult they can throw at you. You no longer deserve protected minority status because you’re with “them”. As long as you debase the proper (conservative) people, racism and sexism don’t even show up as a blip on the PC radar screen. Anyone remember the truly horrible slurs against Rice?

    It seems as if the typical liberal’s (in the unfortunate, current sense) worldview spawns from their political beliefs and develops outward from there, whereas your typical conservative’s (in the unfortunate, current sense) worldview spawns from underlying, non-political beliefs which in turn influence their political thought.

    To the stereotypical conservative, you’re not horrible because you’re on the left, you’re on the left because you’re already horrible. To the stereotypical liberal, you don’t deserve respect because you’re an oppressed minority, you deserve respect because you’re not on the right.

  52. Hmmmmm, perhaps. But then, they don’t call you Stretch for nuthin’! 🙂

  53. Malkin should be dancing on a pole in Bangcock or wherever the hell she’s from.

    Get a good look at her photo did we? “She looks like a gook.”

    From her website: “Oberlin College grad. Philadelphia-born. South Jersey-raised.” (http://michellemalkin.com/about.htm)

    Some of the other posters here are damnyankees, too.

  54. I am sure that a self righteous prick like John finds all of the Michael Moore fat jokes to be as hateful and disgusting as the Malkin pole dance reference. Including the ones that have come from the mouth of Hannity, Rush, Coulter and Malkin.

    After years of waging a bare knuckles brawl against liberals and any other group that they don’t like, the right wing should expect to be treated with kid gloves and respect.

  55. I believe Michelle Malkin’s ancestors came from the Philippines.

  56. I am sure that all of the self righteous pricks that found the Malkin pole dance reference hateful and disgusting will be back to make the same statement regarding all of the Michael Moore fat jokes that have come from the mouths of righties like Malkin, Coulter, Hannity & Rush or does it only matter if it is your ox that is being gored. When you start a bare knuckled brawl, you shouldn’t expect your opponent to keep their gloves on for the sake of decency.

    BTW, given a choice, Malkin might prefer pole dancing in Bangkok versus her hometowns of Philly or South Jersey.

  57. Must resist joke linking Jennifer, strippers and hemmorhoids.

    If the Left is going to accuse the Right of being closet homosexuals because of its opposition to gay marriage, doesn’t it follow that the Left is full of closet racists? Isn’t it racist to suggest that minorities need “protection” in so many ways?

  58. “I am sure that a self righteous prick like John finds all of the Michael Moore fat jokes to be as hateful and disgusting as the Malkin pole dance reference. Including the ones that have come from the mouth of Hannity, Rush, Coulter and Malkin.”

    Yeah, calling someone fat is the same as playing on the all Asian woman are strippers and whores and belong dancing on a poll stereotype. Maybe your post is meant to be irony because I can’t see something as stupid as your comment being meant seriously. But if it is, thank you for providing the perfect example of what this thread was talking about. Liberals are so angry and hate filled that they refuse to police their own. Nothing a liberal says no matter how racist or vile is ever subject to criticism by another liberal.

    Ask yourself, why is it so hard to admit that saying that Malkin belongs on a pole in Bankok is a lousy thing to say? All you can say in response is that conservatives are so vile and evil that the statement was justified. Basically, any means is justified in dealing with the enemy. Because someone called Michael Moore fat, you now feel comfortable with slandering an entire race of people and women in general. It is a good thing you are not projecting or anything when you call me a self righteous prick. You are pathetic Scott.

  59. “Up Yours, Nigger!”

    Blazing Saddles

    Very funny!

  60. “Up Yours, Nigger!”

    Blazing Saddles

    Very funny!

  61. Hey John!

    Thanks for the 2-hour rim-job. You are such a tongue-stud!

  62. I believe Michelle Malkin’s ancestors came from the Philippines.

    Fine – she should be riding pole in the Filipines*.

    SP for effect.

  63. Yeah, calling someone fat is the same as playing on the all Asian woman are strippers and whores and belong dancing on a poll stereotype

    Hate is hate John, why is it ok to make personal attacks about Moore, but deplorable to attack that hateful cunt Malkin.

    Furthermore, saying that Michelle Malkin should be stripping on a pole in bangkok is not an attack to all asian women, any more than say calling Michael Moore fat is an attack on all liberal men. It’s an attack on Michelle Malkin specifically, and it’s in direct response to the stupid, hate-filled nonsense that she spews. No one made any generalizations about “asian women” except you (good to know how your mind works BTW — I guess you cant seperate one specific person without focusing on their ethnicity)

    Maybe you don’t know what a generalization is. Here’s a hint…everything you think about “liberals” and “the left” are generalizations. And the reason they should not be taken serisouly is because it is intellectually lazy and most the time backed up by nothing more than the what the voices in your head are telling you.

    So the moment you and other start opining about how “liberal” and “lefties” are this and that…as if they are some monolithic group — you lose any credibility.

  64. Why can’t Stevie Wonder read?

    Because he’s blind?

    No because he’s black.

  65. Oberlin College grad.

    Really? Well, no wonder! I actually have a little bit of empathy for her now. Having gone to one of the most p.c., leftist colleges in the nation, Malkin must have swung wide to the right to compensate.

  66. Why is it wrong to make fun of fat people?

  67. uh…Michael Moore is fat. Why is it wrong to joke about that? Even if you believe PCness, it’s not like this an unchosen result of factors beyond his control.

    To balance this post, let me add that I’d like to spank Michelle Malkin. Not for her beliefs – just ’cause.

  68. The ping-ponging between crass irreverance and self-righteous venom on this thread is making me seasick.

  69. Well, I’m going to continue to make fun of fatness and fat people whether it is wrong or not.

  70. Michael Moore is fat and it is funny to make fun of him. The joke about that hate filled cunt Malkin being a Bangkok stripper was also funny. My point was there is no difference between the two types of jokes. They are both personal attacks based on outward appearance meant to demean and degrade. As long as you laugh equally at both, it is not a problem. The real issue is the same type of people that would make jokes about Moore being fat, or Hillary being unattractive will launch into a self righteous tirade about the Malkin joke being hateful and disgusting based merely on the political views of the target of the joke.

  71. I got a jury duty notice. I had to fill out a form. You send it in. You’re randomly selected. And I don’t wanna get selected for jury duty. So I’m filling out the form. And my friend said, “Why don’t you just write something really inappropriate, like, ‘I hate Chinks’?” And I said, “Yeah, that’s a good idea.” But when you think about it, I don’t want people to think that of me, you know? I just wanna get out of jury duty. So I just filled out the form, and I wrote, “I love Chinks.”

  72. The ping-ponging between crass irreverance and self-righteous venom on this thread is making me seasick.

    I am deeply offended by this comment, as it is obviously a hateful attack on those of us who suffer from motion sickness. Motion sickness is a disease, and I think it’s shameful that in this day and age, someone could make an offhand comment about it so blithely in what is obviously a sick attempt at “humor”.

  73. From the article:

    “That?s what happens when you study feminism or critical race theory or simply take the time to check the little oppressions of daily life ? you stop being able to ignore it. You stop being able to caricature racists, sexists and homophobes as snaggle-toothed red-state yokels, since you see that racists, sexists and homophobes are all around you. You realize that you?ve internalized a lot of that racism, sexism and homophobia. Some days you feel like it?s so overwhelming that you wish you could have kept your eyes shut.”

    Wow. This person must be really fun to hang out with.

  74. ime, liberals (and especially progressives) are more likely to be bigoted, hateful etc. especially as regards to race, etc.

    look at the crap that Condoleeza Rice has put up with. Or Thomas Sowell. Or Ward Connerly. Or Anne Coulter.

    i think it has to do with identity politics. And when a woman or a black is (lord forbid) conservative, this throws them into complete overdrive.

    recall the comments about Margaret Thatcher, for example made by many feminists.

    It’s all about identity politics. Women, and minorities are the oppressed. Men, and whites are the oppressor. And christians are the oppressor, muslims and atheists the oppressed (jews get mixed cred, since there are lots of jewish neocons etc. – so it gets more nuanced)

    when an oppressor class individual sides with republican or conservative (or libertarian 🙂 ideals, the liberals’ gloves come off

    the comments about coulter being a closet transexual, a b*tch, etc. are all over left wing website. check out democraticunderground.com

  75. Malkin should be dancing on a pole in Bangcock

    No, that slitty-eyed kike should be shaking it in a concentration camp. After all, the Nazis were in Defense of Internment too!

    What, that isn’t funny?

  76. Skip democratic underground, you only need to visit Free Republic for evidence that conservatives are free of any bigotry and hate. All of the posters at Free Republic only debate the relative merits of the liberal versus conservative viewpoint and never sink to the level of personal attacks that the godless, liberal, commies engage in.

  77. How many libertarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    Wrong question: The question is, how’d they get in the lightbulb to start with?

    Damned this is an angry thread.
    Name calling really brings out the best in people.

    Coulter would be very sad if the left stopped calling her names. It is how she makes money. The more offensive she is, the more anger she generates, and the more money she makes.

    Bill O’s NoSpinZone doesn’t think her tactics do his side any good. He claims it is because she is sinking to the level of the mean spirited lefties like Air America. Air America, in fact, was created with the express intent of balancing the invectives coming from the right. Al Franken said he was tired of being polite in the face of all the insults from Rush, Coulter, and company. The difference. Al Franken is funny, at least sometimes… Coulter is just creepy.

  78. How many libertarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    None. The market will take care of it.

    How many liberals does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    None. “The bulb doesn’t need to change, man. It’s the system that needs to change.”

    How many conservatives does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    None. “If God wanted us to see now, he’d have left the sun out.”

    Ok, I’m 0 for 5 for jokes on this post. I’ll quit now.

  79. Yeah, calling someone fat is the same as playing on the all Asian woman are strippers and whores and belong dancing on a poll stereotype.

    Wait, the what stereotype? I’m familiar with the asian woman as quiet, submissive servant stereotype, the asian girl as neurotic, violin-playing premed stereotype, and on the sexy side I guess the asian girl as tube-top wearing, Honda Civic with giant Type R sticker leaning race queen stereotype, but I’ve never even heard of that one.

  80. You’re all fags. Except for the homosexuals. Homosexuals, you’re a bunch of fat fucks. Unless you’re in shape. Homosexuals who are in shape are immune from name-calling.

  81. Smoking P

    ;~) I liked those.

    Why’d the anarchist fall out of the tree?

    Cuz he was dead.

    Why’d the other anarchist fall out of the tree?

    Cuz he was dead.

    Why’d the 3rd anarchist fall out of the tree?

    Peer pressure.

  82. uh…Michael Moore is fat. Why is it wrong to joke about that? Even if you believe PCness, it’s not like this an unchosen result of factors beyond his control.

    Why is it wrong to joke about asian strippers?

  83. [Hate speech is funny] “When it’s directed at politicians or fat people.”

    Upon further reflection, I’d like to amend that statement to include hippies and the state of Texas.

  84. That’s not what I said. I said someone who’s identified as a progressive is less likely to worry about being perceived as bigoted than a conservative. I don’t think there’s any doubt that’s generally true.

    not in my world…i have always wondered why right about when democrats decided to be the new friends of blacks (they hated them up until the 1960’s) that that is the exact time blacks stopped makeing progress economically in realation to whites in this country.

    Conservatives hate FDR becouse now they have to bend over backwards to keep from being poor…the left hate Lincoln becouse they now have to bend over backwards to keep blacks poor.

  85. Malkin is better looking then coutler…coutler is friggin ugly even in pictures she chooses..

    But coulter is far funnier then frankin…

    I mean come the fuck on!

    the 9/11 widows are happy that thier husbands died…that is funny ass shit.

    And if a libertarian can’t laugh at the governemnt billions of dollars to people simply becouse thier spouces died then i don’t know what we can laugh at.

  86. Why is it wrong to joke about asian strippers?

    Because a lot of them are hot, TPG. And if you wreck my chances with them, I’ll be pissed.

    Thx, Mainstream.

  87. mainstream man, it never ceases to amaze me the way people on one “wing” (left or right) can’t find humour in the other side.

    sure, franken is funny. but so is coulter. all the lefties i know who thought dennis miller was funny, suddenly ceased to find any humour in his rants as he tilted rightwards

    there are few more obvious signs that one is a closeminded idealogue, then the inability to laugh at oneself or one’s “side”

    i may be far to the right of franken, but i can still find him funny.

    anne is VERY VERY smart (clearly) and quite funny.

    so is michael savage. savage is like a rightwing lennie bruce. absolutely take no prisoners stream of consciousness rants

  88. I second that Ann Coulter can be funny as shit. I sometimes wonder if she is serious about anything. Don’t know if Franken can be funny, I have seen him mildly amusing.

    Smoking Penguin,
    motion sickness is not a desease it is a usefull adaptation.

  89. scott, i have checked out freerepublic as well. i find it boring. but i’d gladly compare the hate at democraticunderground vs. freerepublic, not that either is a proxy for the left/right

    but you are missing the POINT

    the point is that the left makes much lipservice as being the “prowoman” “prounderdog” and the “tolerant” side, which is just patently absurd.

    when their petty ideologies and bigotries are challenged, the left is AT LEAST as prone to invective, character assassination, racism, bigotry, sexism etc. as the right is

    that’s my point. people are people. the left is far from “tolerant”

  90. the thing about stereotypes is twofold

    1) many stereotypes are true, but only in the aggregate. not when applied towards individuals. because individuals vary (depending on the population) often moreso than the average differences between groups

    the simplest way to think about this is a simple physical characteristic like height. women, on average, are shorter than men. it doesn’t follow that any given random woman is necessarily short, compared to you (if u are a man)

    2) there is also a total double standard about stereotypes. that is that the perceived “oppressed class” can make jokes about negative stereotypes towards the “oppressor class”. a movie title “white men can’t jumP’ didn’t offend anybody . well, maybe larry bird or danny ainge 🙂

    however, if the movie was called “black men can’t swiM’ would the same be true?

    as for asians, the so called “model minority”, the stereotypes ARE true, but not necessarily applkicable to any individual. asian americans (and japanese americans in particular ) have

    1) over 130% the average american income, far lower crime rates, far lower AIDS contraction rate, far lower crime victimization rate, far lower out of wedlock birth rates, etc.

    as ward connerly et al pointed out, it was asian americans who were most harmed by racial quotes/preferences in california school system. not whites.

    it doesn’t follow that Jo Blo asian is necessarily “model”. it does follow that, as a group, they are more successful and less prone to social pathologies.

    stereotyping is when you ascribe group aggregate characteristics to an individual.

    it doesn’t render the underlying truth behind the stereotypes invalid. it is the application that is wrong (to an individual sans evidence).

    feminists are particularly prone to ridiculous levels of sensitivities towards this stuff.

    on average, women are far weaker than men. that’s inarguable. and there are biological reasons for this. but i have actually heard “feminist theorists” claim that this is purely because of “social factors”.

    apparently, chemistry, biology, and physics take a backseat to ideology.

    they are no less doctrinaire than the most ardent fundamentalist.

    i know a woman who can clean and jerk more than 99/100 men. hands down (she was an olympic alternate). she is not weak. but it doesn’t invalidate the stereotype.

  91. Because a lot of them are hot, TPG. And if you wreck my chances with them, I’ll be pissed.

    And they love you long time.

  92. reminds me of a classic south park episode – where Cartman has some sort of head injury or something and thinks he is a vietnamese hooker

    an 8 yr old boy asking some guy “s*cky f*cky 5 dollahs?” is just so wrong on so many levels

    thank god for south park

  93. I don’t know if that was the real Sarah Silverman back there but that joke nearly knocked me out of my chair – thanks Sarah, or whoever you are.

  94. “As a former stripper who’s danced on a few poles in my time…”

    You too?

  95. yeah the next article on hit and run should be titled:

    “I love Chinks”

  96. “Nothing a liberal says no matter how racist or vile is ever subject to criticism by another liberal.”

    Hey, that’s not funny…

    And an incredibly wild generalization to boot…maybe it IS kind of funny.

    But seriously John, maybe you’re just hanging out at different parties than I am. I can think of examples just off the top of my head: Clinton taking to task Sister Souljah for her racist and violence inducing remarks. Liberals who criticized Clinton for his deceitful remarks around the Lewinsky episode. Liberals who criticized Howard Cosell for his ‘monkey’ remark (though I don’t think he meant it that way). And not all liberals are fans of Michael Moore. And if you can find it back over at Sadly No, I actually took my fellow liberal cohorts to task for some of their unfair and childish attacks on libertarians. Of course, there is something of a rally around the flag mentality about all political camps, and I think some of that is to be expected. Conservatives also tend to close ranks and protect their own, to rationalize away low behavior.

    Which group swings lower or who started it is anyone’s guess. I like to remind my liberal friends that SNL was pretty adept at these low blow remarks, for comic effect, long before Rush Limbaugh came along. But then again, his remark comparing Chelsea Clinton (when she was only 12) to the White House dog was not only cruel it was the worst kind of mean-spirited and cowardly bullying I can think of: a grown man attacking a little girl in front of millions of people about her appearance – something that girls at that age are most keenly sensitive about; bad enough in a classroom but in front of a nation…so in a way, he had the counter attacks coming.

    I think whether it’s funny or not is all about or mostly about familiarity or lack thereof and respect. When you know the parties, it can actually be a sign of respect to be able to let your hair down with them. My Australian friends gave me the ribbing of my life when I went to visit them. But as one of them said to me, in a more sober mood, ‘we wouldn’t say these things if we didn’t like or respect you.’ It’s a very different matter from rolling down the car window and shouting a racial expletive out the window. Unfortunately, I think blog attacks sometimes are more like the rolled down car window effect.

  97. “yeah the next article on hit and run should be titled:

    “I love Chinks” ”

    A good title if in reference to self-deception and racism – people who deceive themselves into thinking they’re not racist and then say something self congratulatory that’s supposed to demonstrate their goodness and non-racism but that obviously demonstrates their racism. Well, Ms. Silverman said it better than I did, and in a far funnier way.

  98. “all the lefties i know who thought dennis miller was funny, suddenly ceased to find any humour in his rants as he tilted rightwards”

    Mmm… in fairness, I think Dennis Miller genuinely did just stop being funny, independent of his politics.

  99. Paleolib,

    I agree with you the Limbaugh’s remark about Chelsea Clinton was aweful. I thought all of the stuff about her was terrible including a lot of skits on SNL. She did not choose to be in public life and its unfair to rip on people’s kids. Of course the same people who thought it was terrible to rip on Chelsea Clinton feel it is okay to rip on the Bush twins.

    Bill Clinton caught a lot of flack for ripping Sister whoever she was. Further, it is pretty obvious that the whole thing was a cynical political ploy. It was just bubba telling people that he is not one of the lunatic fringe. Before Clinton no one knew or cared about Sister Soulja and no one cares now beyond her getting her name into history as a political term. It wasn’t exactly courages to criticize a C list rapper.

    As far as Michael Moore. If there are liberals who are not fans of his, I would like to hear from them. They seem to be like bigfoot, everyone says they exist but you never seem to meet one.

    The liberals only hurt themselves by not kicking around the lunatic fringe more. I really think that if John Kerry had kicked Moore out of the 2004 convention and used that dumb, fat, bastard as his “Sister Soulja”, Kerry might have won the election. As it was, Moore got a choice seat with Jimmy Carter and Kerry lost by a million votes. Look at it this way, Bill Clinton invented the Sister Soulja moment and won to elections. Al Gore and John Kerry never had one and both lost.

  100. There just aren’t very many good jokes about WASPs. I don’t know why that is, it just is. The only one that even comes close is…

    Q: How many positions do WASPs fuck in?
    A: “POSITIONS?!?”

    Yeah, pretty weak.

    And although Ann Coulter’s work seems to be nothing more than a flaming bag of dog shit on the doorstep of civilized discourse, I think she is brilliant. Not for her opinions, of course, but because like Fox News, she has created a sterling parody of the Angry White Conservative. And people are stupid enough to buy this act — well done, Ann! Live the dream.

  101. “mainstream man, it never ceases to amaze me the way people on one “wing” (left or right) can’t find humour in the other side.”

    You ain’t talking about me.
    I don’t find Coulter funny, but I like Drew Carey, I like Dennis Miller (at times, although I agree his pleonastic obscurantisms are getting a bit old), Carlos Mencia, Ron White and any number of other comedians that are right of center… but I also like Jeanine Garofalo, Al Franken, John Stewart, Steven Colbert. The best political comedy, IMHO, is neither right not left, but irreverent in regards to power.

    As for Michael Moore. I think he is funny. I think his politics are the left’s version of Rush Limbaugh. I know many on the left who agree.

  102. There just aren’t very many good jokes about WASPs.

    Maybe not, but I did enjoy the gentile jokes from Gene Weingarten’s chat last week:

    A gentile goes into a clothing store and says, “This is a very fine jacket. How much is it?”

    The salesman says, “It’s $500.”

    The gentile says, “OK, I’ll take it.”

    ————————————————

    Two gentiles meet on the street. The first one says, “You own your own business, don’t you? How’s it going?” The other gentile says, “Just great! Thanks for asking!”

    ————————————————

    A Gentile man calls his mother and says, “Mother, I know you’re expecting me for dinner this evening, but something important has come up and I can’t make it.”

    His mother says, “OK.”

    ————————————————–
    A Gentile man calls his elderly mother. He asks, “Mom, how are you feeling? Do you need anything?”

    She says, “I’m feeling fine, and I don’t need anything. Thanks for calling.”

  103. A good title if in reference to self-deception and racism – people who deceive themselves into thinking they’re not racist and then say something self congratulatory that’s supposed to demonstrate their goodness and non-racism but that obviously demonstrates their racism. Well, Ms. Silverman said it better than I did, and in a far funnier way.

    umm yeah so use a paragraph when you can use three words:

    I love chinks

  104. I am sorry but if you don’t find Coulter funny then you are dead inside.

    Note: I have never read any of her books and probably never will. I just get my kicks from the occational dust-up every time she shows up on talk shows and such.

  105. Q: How many WASPs does it take to change a light bulb?

    A: Two, one to mix the martinis and one to call the electrician.

  106. Coulter is funny as an unintended parody of the screeching, thoughtless right.

    I can’t think of anyone on the left that even comes close – Michael Moore, maybe, but even he is far less insane. And that’s saying something.

  107. “Reason”? Huh, more like TREASON!!!

    Culter is a genus, youse frag fucken treasonites!

    Idjits!

  108. Coulter was a below average writer at National Review with her career going nowhere until she figured out that the shorter her skirts were and the crazier things she said the more attention she got and the more money she made. Some of her stuff is pretty damn funny, but she is hardly a serious thinker. People give her way too much credit.

  109. John,

    I agree. Under no circumstances should she be taken seriously. She is a personality, not an intellectual, although I maintain that she has brilliantly grasped the lessons of what it takes to be a media force in the 21st century.

    My favorite nickname for Coulter is “Ann Hominem.” 🙂

  110. Folks is folks.?

  111. Kurt,

    Those are way funny.

  112. Q: How many WASPs does it take to change a light bulb?

    A: Two, one to mix the martinis and one to call the electrician.

    THANK YOU for the inspiration, Happy Jack! I was really puzzling about what to have to dinner.

    Thursday, it’s the new Friday!

  113. John, I’m not in disagreement with you that liberals tend to circle the wagons (as do conservatives). I’m in disagreement with your 100 percent statement:

    “Nothing a liberal says no matter how racist or vile is ever subject to criticism by another liberal.”

    That’s patently untrue in its extremist absolutism. I can think of many liberals, myself included, among my friends, who object to some of the extremism of the multicultural movement or feminist extremism – the kind of shit that goes, “all men rape” or “patriarchy has a bias towards linear thinking, so oppresses women (all women think non-linearly)” or “a future time orientation is racist” or “only white people can be racist.” And some liberals disagree with some of the more extreme elements of the environmentalist movement. Of course, you might hear some liberals say, yeah, but the right wing in this country is so much more dangerous now, so these issues are just trivial. I agree with them on the first part but not on the second.

    As for Moore, “Hi, my name is Bill. And I’m not a fan of Michael Moore.” Does that work for you? I’ll agree that I’m in the minority among liberals on this one, as I am on a number of issues, but just wanted you to know, we do exist. Idon’t Thomas Friedman agrees with Moore about a lot things either.

    Thanks for the reminder about SNL and Chelsea. I had forgotten that. As I recall though the Clintons asked them not to continue poking fun at her, SNL agreed, and everyone kissed and made up (not to say that some SNL stuff wasn’t in poor taste as well…Charlton Heston, are you watching?). I don’t recall the same congeniality with Limbaugh, who swung much lower, imho. Also, while I agree that the twins do not deserve the bashing they get, there are a couple of differences. Big difference for one between college age women and 12 year old girls. Two, it’s been pretty soft stuff compared to what Chelsea got, especially considering the relative effects in regards to the differences in ages and maturity.

    Conservatives are no different in circling their own wagons or rationalizing away issues where they know they should know better. Consider how conservatives have reacted to racial discrimination – such as at Bob Jones Univeristy. Or all the weak rationalizations for the support for what the Bush admininstration is doing in Iraq or the Bush Team’s violations of civil liberties. Why don’t more conservatives slam Bush for his protectionism of certain industries?

    I suppose we could argue all day and night about who is worse – and you have your bias and I have mine, so we’ll probably never come to an agreement on it. But my main point is that your conjecture of 100 percent is way off but that people naturally tend to support their own tribe.

    I do agree that we liberals should kick around our loonies a bit more though. Send one my way, I’ll give him a kick. We could put both our lunatic fringes in the middle and start a new sport.

  114. “But then again, his remark comparing Chelsea Clinton (when she was only 12) to the White House dog was not only cruel it was the worst kind of mean-spirited and cowardly bullying I can think of”

    And your memory of the inicdent is wrong.

    Here now, the truth excerpted from the show’s transcript (Rush is doing a segment on In/Out lists, and their political biases. For example, he noted the “out” lists he was on despite the ongoing popularity of his programs):

    Copyright 1992 Multimedia Entertainment, Inc.
    RUSH LIMBAUGH
    SHOW: RUSH LIMBAUGH (9:00 PM ET)
    November 6, 1992, Friday 11:15 AM

    LIMBAUGH: Thank you. This show’s era of dominant influence is just beginning. We are now the sole voice of sanity, the sole voice of reason. We are the sole voice of opposition on all television. This is the only place you can tune to to get the truth of the opposition of the one-party dictatorial government that now will soon run America. Oh, I mean, we are only beginning to enjoy dominance and prosperity. Most of these things on the in-out list are not even funny, but a couple of them–one of them in particular is.

    David Hinckley of–of the New York Daily News wrote this, and what he has–he’s got–it’s very strange. He says, In: A cute kid in the White House. Out: Cute dog in the White House.’ Could–could we see the cute kid? Let’s take a look at–see who is the cute kid in the White House.

    (A picture is shown of Millie the dog)

    LIMBAUGH: (Voiceover) No, no, no. That’s not the kid.

    (Picture shown of Chelsea Clinton)

    LIMBAUGH: (Voiceover) That’s–that’s the kid. We’re trying to…

    ______________

    Yes, it WASanaccident, and yes he DID apoogize profusely a few days later as well as to Hillary herself years later.

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