Tiananmen Highlight Reel fails to solve mystery of shopping-bag man's fate

From the Garden State, Matthew Ginivan sends in (Not Settled), a terrific pump-you-up reel of clips all purportedly taken from the 1989 demonstration and massacre at Tiananmen Square, Beijing.

Comments

[Chad]

This wonderful little clip reminds me of probably my biggest pet peeve in foreign relations - with all the real evil in the world, such as this, the massacres of Shia via Sunni and vice versa in Iraq, Darfur, etc, why do leftists, Europeans, Islamists and other anti-Americans persist in thinking WE come even close?

Comparing our specks of grey to such piles of steaming blackness is both irresponsible and logically false. The world may not be black and white, but neither are all shades of grey equal.

[Warren]

Chad,
Specks of gray? I am not a leftist, European, Islamist nor anti-American. I find our history of foreign policy contemptible.

Finding us superior to radical Islam and the like seems like damning with faint praise.

[dead_elvis]

Call me sappy, but I tear up every time I see video of that guy in front of the tank. Most inspiring man and imagery I've ever seen.

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensis]

I don't consider the WoD to be a "gray speck."

[coarsetad]

I have to agree with Chad on this one. The War on Terror, Drugs, Gays, Flags, etc is very cruel, but pales in comparsion to the "People's Army" ruthlessly gunning down its own unarmed people. Despite all our flaws, watching that video made me glad I live here, and I hope that feeling stays with me for the rest of my life.

[Chris]

Chad is right--a winning strategy adopted in the late 20th century by the most despicable of human rights abusers has been to try and conflate liberal states' slightly tarnished records with their own blackend and bloody ones. It's working so far. Ask the average American undergrad which state has the world's worst human rights record; most will name the USA.

[Chris]

A agree with Chad also. A winning strategy adopted in the late 20th century by the most despicable of human rights abusers has been to try and conflate liberal states' slightly tarnished records with their own blackened and bloody ones. It's working so far. Ask the average American undergrad which state has the world's worst human rights record; most will name the USA.

[Paul]

Hear, hear! Imagine if an American president had ordered up a massacre like that. We've done some dark things, but we've never approached anything like that.

[Ventifact]

I agree in general with the pro-America sentiments. It may be fair to say Imagine if an American president had ordered up a massacre like that. We've done some dark things, but we've never approached anything like that.

However, that notion is truer within our own borders than without. "Wars" of various types (against communism, drugs, and terror, to name the most obvious examples) waged by the U.S. have caused the same kind of human suffering from the same inhumane, brutal disregard for human rights that we saw in that video about China.

That notion is also truer these days than far in the past. George Washington owned slaves...

[hale]

The one area where American history begins to approximate the records of various brutally despotic regimes of today is in our treatment of the Native Americans in the nineteenth century - especially President Jackson's treachery with the Cherokees. We've dabbled in unethical foreign policy since then, but honestly in the twentieth we've been outshone (outblackened?) by a host of more modern tyrannies.

[John M. Joy]

Ssssssowait...

As long as the US doesn't stoop to the level of, say, a Stalin or Mao, then all is well and we have nothing to complain about?

JMJ

[SY]

Is there something about the initials "JMJ" that cause a draining of common sense from the cerebral function?

[thoreau]

Well, I'm glad that we managed to establish that our government is better than China's Communist government. See, the blogosphere is good for something! 🙂

[thoreau]

Maybe I should say that Deng Xiaoping would be much worse.... 🙂

[Nick Gillespie]

A powerful and highly recommended companion clip at Youtube is a Short History of China (1949-1989). The ending especially packs a wallop.

[Chad]

To warren, DE, and PL. You are making my point.

Let's compare our new terrible attrocity in Iraq (Haditha) to what is a regular occurance there commited by Muslims (this weekends slaughter of 21 Shia students on their way their exams).

In the first case, it appears likely that a few marines, put in a high-intensity, dangerous situation, snapped and lashed out, and a few more marines lied to hide the incident from people like you (yes, making YOU part of the problem). Furthermore, provoking such reactions from our soldiers is one of the prime goal of the enemy, as it fosters attitudes like yours. It is the only way they can win.

In the case of the students, we have a pure case of calculated, cold-blooded executions based on bigotry.

So which is worse?

Obviously the latter - A hate-crime based set of first-degree murders vs what at worst is a set of mitigated, remorseful manslaughter cases. So even our WORST doesn't compare to the Muslim-daily-average. Let's see Al-Jazeera make that argument.

The same sort of analysis holds true with China, on numerous fronts. Europe likes to pretend it is better, but it is pretty easy to act clean when you refuse to lend a hand in the dirty work.

[Randolph Carter]

Um, Chad...

I was having an awful day and almost got hit by a car, so I lashed out, killed your dog and child, then lied to hide the incident from someone like you (yes, making YOU part of the problem). The damn child and puppy want to foster the attitude that I'm bad, and it's the only way creatures like them can win.

Does that make any sense? Thought no.

[Jammer]

Does that make any sense? Thought no.

Its rare one sees this level of self-criticism in H&R. Kudos to you, sir.

[SR]

"As long as the US doesn't stoop to the level of, say, a Stalin or Mao, then all is well and we have nothing to complain about?"

According to a substantial part of the pundits at FoxNews, NRO, Weekly Standard, WND, etc., that's right.

[Jammer]

I think the important thing to remember here is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

To draw upon an over-used scenario, the fact that Allied troops in WW2 did, upon occasion, commit atrocities, in no way tarnishes the basic justice of engaging in the conflict. Doesn't mean those who committed crimes should get off; it does mean we shouldn't agonize over the fact we're fighting and need to.

By the way, if you think invading Iraq (or for that matter, WW2) was wrong, it stays wrong, no matter how judicious or humane the behavior of the invading troops are. Just to throw that out there.

Look, we *are* better than the Mao's of the world, which might indeed seem faint praise, but it is still nonetheless true, and worth celebrating. It is the difference between looking at a Mi Lai[sp?] and saying "see how awful we are" and saying "Dammit, how did we let that happen?"

To paraphrase Lord Corwin of Amber: "My own hands are not clean. But I shall neither wash them nor let them hang useless."

[John M. Joy]

SY: Go fuck your tits.

Jammer: But we're not talking about throwing out babies with bathwater. Wrong is wrong, and if we don't have the fortitude to call it such when we see it, we risk finding ourselves wandering down that same gloomy path. And "yeah, but so-and-so is so much worse!" serves no purpose other than to gloss over and thus excuse bad behavior.

We have far more control over our own asshole than the other guy's; so, if it's exhuding a foul aroma (even if his are really bad)...

JMJ

[midbrowcrisis]

JMJ,
I think I essentially agree with your viewpoint, wrong is wrong. Interestingly, whenever I point out something stupd the Left is doing, like the recent Seattle Public Schools Policy of dressing up a way of race baiting, my friends on the Left just shrug and say, "yeah but the right wing is doing worse things now." Doesn't matter how much I agree with them or how often on that point they have to say it every time. They can't just agree with me that that somehing is wrong and harmful when it's their team that's doing it. They have to rally around the team and find ways to rationalize the policy or act: "oh, it's just in response to injustices in the past." I suppose one could take the view that it's just a dialectic, that it will work out in the end. But I'm not so sure, if neither side is able to admit the wrongheadedness of their own side, then I think the pendulum will just keep making giant swings back and forth. Progress is more likely to happen faster if we just agree to stick to a moral baseline.

[JC]

It's important to point out what is wrong with the U.S. but it is also important to remember that we aren't as bad as other nations.

[ian]

washington dc 2020

[Jammer]

Wrong is wrong, and if we don't have the fortitude to call it such when we see it, we risk finding ourselves wandering down that same gloomy path.

Are you arguing with me? This has nothing to do with what I wrote.

[John M. Joy]

Jammer:

Perhaps, then, I'm misreading (or reading into) your baby/bathwater reference and Zelazny quote.

JMJ