Libertarian Final Solution to the Immigration Problem

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World Net Daily columnist Vox Day is not only a member of MENSA and Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, Inc. He's also a libertarian and a Christian—and he's got the tonsure to prove it. In his most recent column, Vox Day (shouldn't that be "Vox Dei"?) shows that he is above the cowards' morality of those who say mass deportations will never work:

Not only will it work, but one can easily estimate how long it would take. If it took the Germans less than four years to rid themselves of 6 million Jews, many of whom spoke German and were fully integrated into German society, it couldn't possibly take more than eight years to deport 12 million illegal aliens, many of whom don't speak English and are not integrated into American society.

Faster than you can misspell Weiße Rose, the weak-willed untermenschen, signs of a nation's decay, have come out of their dank holes to attack Vox Day for daring to speak the truth. Vox Day defends himself by noting that his critics are stupid, that to deny the National Socialists their achievement is to deny the Holocaust itself, and that anyway he's not actually in favor of that stuff. But even as Vox Day battles his detractors, those creatures of darkness are already at their work of destruction, eating up the nation's vital strength.

I say what's the point of being a Christian Libertarian, let alone a certifiable genius, if you're not willing to think outside the box? (Or vox?) But Vox Day of all people should realize that this question like so many others was answered in the "Zeon Pigs!" episode of Star Trek: Sure, everybody wants to be a little bit Nazi, without all the anti-Semitism and stuff. But it just never works out that way.

Thanks to tersely named commenter Johnny for the heads-up.

Update: Even more tersely named commenter SR actually brought this column to our attention before Johnny. But SR and Johnny are both winners. At Hit & Run, everyone is special.

NEXT: The Mideast's Land of Paradox

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  1. This article got some play yesterday here, as well. Chilling, horrific stuff.

    If the LP hasn’t already planned to do so, it should issue at least a brief press release stating that it has no relationship with this creep.

  2. How about this for a final solution: I propose we establish a national “exchange program.” Taking as a point of departure my own view that being an American is a privilege, not a right, we can have examinations every few years to determine who gets to come to our shores and who has to leave. If your kids are truants, do poorly in school, spend most of their time in juvenile detention facilities, we’ll deport your whole family. If you’re a parasitic government worker or a welfare queen (farmers, politicians, etc.), sorry, but you’ll have to go someplace else. In exchange, we can set up a review process, whereby all those folks from other places who have shown that they will work hard, save their money, make their kids go to school, and otherwise better themselves and society will be let in — no strings attached. The whole place will be a meritocracy. If we let you in and you don’t perform, you’re gone. Likewise, if you are deported but are willing to shape up, then you can come back.

    I’m only half kidding.

  3. So my posting of the same link and quote in the “Ramsey Clark, call your office thread” with a post time of May 15, 2006 04:16 PM, compared to Johnny’s on May 16, 2006 09:54 AM, is chopped liver? Well, let’s just see if I renew my subscription after that slight!

  4. Well, you’ve gone and mollified my outrage, Tim, so now I’ll be forced to renew my subscription out of gratitude. Curse you and your sophisticated manipulation of my psyche!

  5. BTW, in case anyone isn’t getting it, I’m being silly.

  6. How about this, Larry: Make US citizenship a private property, which can be bought, sold and bartered.

    Sure, make acquisition subject to a criminal background check and maybe even and infectious disease screening; those things fall pretty well under the “force or fraud” concept.

    I’ve heard it said that a US passport is one of the most valuable documents in the world; let’s establish an open market in the things.

    Shut down the welfare state (including the corporate welfare state), but replace it with the ability to sell your citizenship and move someplace with an appropriate “safety net” for your unwillingness to earn a living.

    I like it!

  7. Of course, there will also be people who don’t initially want citizenship — they just want to come in, work their asses off for a few years (or for the season, or whatever).

    For them, I’d propose a guest worker program that consists of posting a substantial bond on entry into the country. You’d specify how long you intend to stay (perhaps the bond amount should even be related to your length of stay?). We then conduct a criminal background check (if you are a criminal, we KEEP your bond – so don’t bother to try if you’ve got a record!), and in you come.

    When you return home, you get your bond back; if you fail to return, we keep it, track you down and send you home. (And you’re no longer eligible for the program…)

    If you are convicted of a felony, or sign up for welfare, we also ship your butt home and keep your money.

    Of course, if you decide to purchase a citizenship, you’d also be eligible for return of your bond.

    So… should I run for President? 😀

  8. (And yes, I think that my guest worker concept would work just fine even without an open market in US citizenships.)

  9. Just get rid of the minimum wage and that will completely solve the problem.

  10. “How about this, Larry: Make US citizenship a private property, which can be bought, sold and bartered.

    Sure, make acquisition subject to a criminal background check and maybe even and infectious disease screening; those things fall pretty well under the “force or fraud” concept.

    I’ve heard it said that a US passport is one of the most valuable documents in the world; let’s establish an open market in the things.

    Shut down the welfare state (including the corporate welfare state), but replace it with the ability to sell your citizenship and move someplace with an appropriate “safety net” for your unwillingness to earn a living.

    I like it!”

    That is a great idea. If you deported all of the illegals and let Americans sell their citizenship, that would be a fair deal. I think you should be able to rent your citizenship. IN exchange for so much money per year, someone could get your U.S. passport for a set amount of time. Hell, for the right price, I might relocate to some Afro Marxist hell hole for a few years. When I got tired of it and wanted to come home, I would just not sign a renewel on my passport and tell Akbar, that he is going to have to go back home. Sounds great.

  11. Clean Hands, I made a similar proposal in a previous thread.

    Considering what some migrants are prepared to pay smugglers to get them in, it should not be hard to get them to post a bond, especially when doing so would buy them legitimacy.

  12. Given that the deportation of 11-14 million people would represent the largest forced migration in the history of the Americas, the comparison to the Nazis is pretty much unavoidable.

  13. Isaac,

    What if the government sold the passports and we used the money in lieu of taxes? If I could trust Congress to actually lower taxes rather than just blowing it, I might go for that as well.

  14. Here’s a novel idea:

    Do it like the Romans did. Two years in the Army reserves earns you citizenship. You want to be a part of this country, you should have to prove it.

    Mexicans are already risking their lives to cross over, and our military is spread thin. Two birds, one stone…

  15. The last time I alerted Hit and Run to a story worth posting, I was credited as “reader”. ‘Tersely named’ would seem an improvement. For future reference, I would prefer to be credited as “wry-witted and insightful commenter”

  16. The last time I saw something concerning a MENSA member was a tv show about some guy who poisoned his neighbor. Makes you think.

  17. Has anyone credible actually proposed active deportation on this scale?

    This has to be one of the dumbest straw men ever.

  18. Here’s a novel idea:

    Do it like the Romans did. Two years in the Army reserves earns you citizenship. You want to be a part of this country, you should have to prove it.

    Mexicans are already risking their lives to cross over, and our military is spread thin. Two birds, one stone…

    I kinda like that, except I worry about possibly having a national military made up largely of people who have not yet formed a particular attachment to the society they are supposed to be defending… At some point, didn’t the Romans have a problem with that too?

  19. Considering the fact that Vox has eloquently ripped Michelle Malkin’s arguments in favor of “puttin then damn yellow people from Jaypahn in them camps,” I think his anti-Nazi credentials are pretty solid.

    Vox loves to be Mr. Controversial. He’s the libertarian Ann Coulter and enjoyable for the same reasons. The man never pulls a punch, which is refreshing.

    The general libertarian attitude toward open borders is problematic, and the illegal immigrants must be addressed. I defy any of you though to show where Vox has actually called for the government to use deadly force against illegals, especially since he has stated in the past that he opposes the death penalty.

    It is ridiculous to keep repeating that insulting mantra “they just do the jobs that Americans won’t do.” Oh really, like putting up dry wall? Try telling that to the native-born black construction workers who work down the street from my girlfriend’s apartment. What I’ve found is that the only people whose hearts bleed for the illegals are typically middle and upper class white people whose jobs aren’t threatened by them. In that sense, secular libertarinism is basically a rich white man’s ideology, not something that the general public can relate to.

    Vox, like Ilana Mercer, is against open borders for immigrants, but pro-open borders for citizens.

  20. Considering the fact that Vox has eloquently ripped Michelle Malkin’s arguments in favor of “puttin then damn yellow people from Jaypahn in them camps,” I think his anti-Nazi credentials are pretty solid.

    Vox loves to be Mr. Controversial. He’s the libertarian Ann Coulter and enjoyable for the same reasons. The man never pulls a punch, which is refreshing.

    The general libertarian attitude toward open borders is problematic, and the illegal immigrants must be addressed. I defy any of you though to show where Vox has actually called for the government to use deadly force against illegals, especially since he has stated in the past that he opposes the death penalty.

    It is ridiculous to keep repeating that insulting mantra “they just do the jobs that Americans won’t do.” Oh really, like putting up dry wall? Try telling that to the native-born black construction workers who work down the street from my girlfriend’s apartment. What I’ve found is that the only people whose hearts bleed for the illegals are typically middle and upper class white people whose jobs aren’t threatened by them. In that sense, secular libertarinism is basically a rich white man’s ideology, not something that the general public can relate to.

    Vox, like Ilana Mercer, is against open borders for immigrants, but pro-open borders for citizens.

  21. Given that the deportation of 11-14 million people would represent the largest forced migration in the history of the Americas, the comparison to the Nazis is pretty much unavoidable.

    Come now, Joe. You COULD compare it to the Turkish ethnic cleansing of the Armenians!

  22. I would add that the point is NOT to ship the illegals back home. Hell, I want anybody here who can make a positive contribution, illegal or not. The key provision to my proposal is that we get rid of the dead weight, which requires that we kick about half the so-called citizens of this country out.

    The problem with making citizenship a property (at least giving citizens passports which can be bought and sold openly), is that you are essentially giving away a valuable commodity that most people in this country do not deserve. The point is that everybody has to earn it. Once you’ve earned it, if you’d like to trade it on the open market, that’s just fine.

    Another problem is that a citizenship market would favor the rich. You’d have a bunch of deadbeats — Prince Harry, etc. — from other countries who would buy their citizenship and contribute nothing, while hard-working poor folks would be squeezed out of the market. Of course, it wouldn’t be the end of the world if we had a country of wealthy people, but somebody has to do the heavy lifting. I’m not sure it would do to have a country full of trust fund babies, where nobody wants to mow the lawns, build the houses, or serve in the military.

    Doesn’t Canada have a policy somewhat like this, where you can essentially buy citizenship by investing $1 million?

  23. Stevo:

    I’m not saying it’s the perfect idea, although I would imagine those who weren’t US loving would be weeded out during basic training.

    Yes, non-citizens in the army contributed to Rome’s downfall, but the bulk of it was caused by corrupt leaders and an apethetic public (sound familliar?)

    Anyway, I’m not saying it’s the best idea, just that we need to think of more inginuitive sol;utions that :close the borders, no open the borders, no close… etc.

  24. Stevo, letting the barbarians into the legions without fully indoctrinating them into Roman ways had a heck of a lot to do with the decline and fall of the western empire.

  25. Considering that it took Stalin less than 4 years to starve millions of his countrymen to death, I think the government could do something about this-here obesity epidemic of ours if they really wanted to.

  26. According to Table 40 on this PDF, we deported between 33,000 and 186,000 (round numbers) of illegals per year in 1991-2003. That certainly makes deporting 11 million seem unfeasible.

    However, in each of those same years between 887,000 and 1.675 million illegals deported voluntarily. That certainly makes encouraging the voluntary deportation of 11 million illegals over a few years seem quite feasible.

  27. Price controls on sugar ought to do it, eh, Jennifer? Oh, wait, we already have those, don’t we? 🙂

    (Just in the wrong direction… anybody care to chart sugar price supports against obesity rates?)

  28. Why don’t we just skip all of this and offer Mexico statehood? We might as well. Carve it up into four or five states, charge an admission fee (say, $50 billion over 20 years), and have at it. Sure, the welfare burden would suck for a while, but I’m sure we’d figure out some way of making it work.

  29. “Has anyone credible actually proposed active deportation on this scale?”

    The United States House of Representatives has passed a bill that would make it a felony to be without documents and increased funding for immigration enforcement activities. Those behind this bill have loudly applauded local law enforcement who arrest people for being illegal immigrants and turn them over the feds for deportation.

    So, yes, they have.

  30. What I’ve found is that the only people whose hearts bleed for the illegals are typically middle and upper class white people whose jobs aren’t threatened by them.

    Or put another way, those most likely to face competition are the most keen to prevent it through legislation… imagine that.

    Threatening jobs is a good thing – I hope someone threatens my insurance agent’s job by offering me a cheaper policy – or my grocer’s job by offering lower prices.

    Oh really, like putting up dry wall? Try telling that to the native-born black construction workers who work down the street from my girlfriend’s apartment.

    If I want to hire someone to hang drywall who are you to tell me I cannot and must instead hire someone who will charge me more simply because he was born on this side of an imaginary line? It is none of your business. Should I be allowed to dictate from whom you may buy a car?

    Vox, like Ilana Mercer, is against open borders for immigrants, but pro-open borders for citizens.

    Yeah, that is some libertarian who looks to the what is nothing more than an arbitrary legal definition to decide which person I may associate with and which I may not.

  31. But SR and Johnny are both winners. At Hit & Run, everyone is special.

    So very special.

    I wish I was special.

    But I’m a freeeeeeeak …. I’m a weeeeeirdo-ho-whoah … What the hell am I doing herrrrrrre …. I don’t belonnnnng herrrreee … whoah-oh … whoah-oh … (high-pitchined whining)…

  32. Two years in the Army reserves earns you citizenship. You want to be a part of this country, you should have to prove it.

    So you prove that you want to be a part of this country by becoming a slave to the government for a couple years? Why should someone else have to prove something that you or I don’t? I’ve never proved to anyone that I want to be a part of this country and I know I wouldn’t particularly care to be forced into the army as a condition for my continued freedom to live where I want.

  33. Brian Courts:

    I meant as a voluntary program, a.k.a. set upa recruitment center in Mexico City or something.

    Let me make this clear: NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO JOIN THE MILITARY!!!

  34. Okay, if you don’t like the military service option, reject my statehood idea, but still want a solution, well, I’ve got one. Indentured servitude. Seven years, learn a trade, get citizenship and two mules. Voil?! If ’twere good enough for many of our ancestors, ’tis good enough for yon immigrants o’ today.

  35. I apologize for posting so much, as I should have been more precise:

    Military service should be an alternative to the long, drawn-out process of naturalization that drives many immigrants to cross illegally.

    I’m not talking about the folks already here, nor about those who don’t want to join the army. I’m simply offering a fast-track to citizenship that provides benefits to all, including the immigrant who recieves a higher status for being a veteran.

  36. You know what? Fuck it. I’m gonna get a shack in the woods and be a kook.

    This politicvs bullshit gives me gout…

  37. You know what? Fuck it. I’m gonna get a shack in the woods and be a kook.

    This politics bullshit gives me gout…

  38. I meant as a voluntary program, a.k.a. set upa recruitment center in Mexico City or something.

    taktix,

    Well, yes, I never suggested otherwise but I guess I don’t see the point of your clarification. I certainly didn’t think you were arguing for kidnapping them. But I guess if someone told you that in order to work here you had to prove you wanted to be a part of this country by voluntarily joining the army, it might not seem so voluntary.

  39. Let me make this clear: NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO JOIN THE MILITARY!!!

    Good. At least you are for open borders.

    What would you recommend the requirements be for immigrant residents of the US who wanted a path to citizenship without joining the military?

  40. Taktix,

    The problem with the military option is that most of the people who want to come here from Latin America are illiterate and can’t speak English, they would be worthless as soldiers and represent subraction by addition to our military. Granted there are some smart educated types who would make a positive contribution to the military. IN that sense, the U.S. would get some very good productive citizens. The program would do nothing to stop the flood of desparate masses coming accross our southern border.

    Brian Courts,

    Yes, anyone who doesn’t want to see their standard of living reduced through immigration to that of a day laborer in Mexico City, is just anti-competition.

  41. All I’m suggesting is an alternative to the dumbass, gub’ment-run, red tape-bound process of immigrating legally.

    It would be a program IN ADDITION TO whatever dumbass, gub’ment, red tape-bound system that Congress will eventually put in place. It’s better than this conviluted guest worker program, and they don’t have to go home once they’ve finished.

  42. anyone who doesn’t want to see their standard of living reduced through immigration

    Whoa whoa whoa … Don’t you people ever get tired of spouting the same old lies?

  43. It would be a program IN ADDITION TO whatever dumbass, gub’ment, red tape-bound system that Congress will eventually put in place.

    But didn’t you say that no one should be forced to join the military?

    By having limitations on immigration beyond showing up at the border and passing a security check, your plan effectively forces people who want to move here to join the military.

    Or perhaps you would say that even a military draft isn’t really forcing anyone to join the military because they can always leave the country instead.

  44. Yes, anyone who doesn’t want to see their standard of living reduced through immigration to that of a day laborer in Mexico City, is just anti-competition.

    John, what else are they? You don’t have a “right” to support a standard of living by restricting who I might hire to do a job. You don’t have a right to a job. A job is simply a contractual arrangement between people and it exists when you provide someone a service that they value at more than you charge them. If someone else is willing to do it for less you have no right to stop them simply because you want to extort a higher payment from me. Producers exist to serve consumers, not the other way around.

    So yes, if you oppose letting someone in because it will reduce your wages or make it harder to get a job, you are most certainly anti-competition just the same as a taxi driver who supports restrictive licensing or a grocer who would supports restrictive zoning that prevents other grocers from coming into the area. Whether you are selling cars, insurance, groceries or your labor, if you attempt to facilitate your self-serving interest in charging more (which we all have, to be sure) by restricting the pool of competition, you are acting anti-competitively.

  45. Some crypto-Nazis post here, but I don’t think Vox is a Nazi. But isn’t libertarian-Christian an oxymoron? Christians submit to the will of G-d, no?

  46. Two years in the Army reserves earns you citizenship. You want to be a part of this country, you should have to prove it.

    You’re channeling Starship Troopers. (The book, not the movie.) Although in Heinlein’s version it was “government service,” not necessarily the military.

    And we’ve already tried this. At least when I was in the Army (Vietnam era) joining up was by far the the best way to improve your chances of citizenship. I always had a Mexican citizen or two in my infantry platoons. They said surviving a year in combat was much easier than surviving the immigration beaurocracy.

    Personally, I’d like to see all the illegals say, “To hell with it” and go home, just to find out how high the stacks of unwashed dishes and unplanted grass got during the month before the policy was reversed.

  47. Christians submit to the will of G-d, no?

    If they just were content submitting themselves to the will of Gawd, I’d be fine with it. But that sort are rarer than hens’ teeth.

  48. Good work, Larry. Remember – we only believe in the power of the market when it works in OUR favor; not when it would force employers to raise wages to attract citizens to do the jobs “Americans won’t do”.

    Keep on keeping on. I’ve got an appointment to have my yacht detailed – if I’m feeling cheeky today, I might not even pay those filthy laborers.

  49. Is it just me, or has it been a bad day for the LP in terms of PR? First this senator, Glen McConnell ? the one who?s spending 97 million bucks to preserve a sunk ship ? is called a libertarian by some local paper. Then there?s Sager?s remarks about ideals in the movement bordering the GOP. Then the thread about Riggenbach?s article, saying something about people who claim to be libertarians who ?with straight faces, describe the bombing of innocent civilian populations in other countries as “self defense;” who prattle neo-conservative nonsense about exporting democracy to prevent war; who call for the destruction by nuclear bomb of entire populations in certain parts of the world.?
    And now this Vox guy who claims to be libertarian gets quoted sounding even more ridiculous.

  50. They submit to the Will of God but you can go to Hell, if you want.

  51. “He’s the libertarian Ann Coulter and enjoyable for the same reasons. The man never pulls a punch, which is refreshing.”

    that argumentium ad hitlerum really is enjoyable.

    fuck you. you obviously have no clue of the horrors of the Third Reich. Yet it’s “refreshing” for you. Fuck you.

  52. Remember – we only believe in the power of the market when it works in OUR favor; not when it would force employers to raise wages to attract citizens to do the jobs “Americans won’t do”.

    Right… because remember, the government restricting whom one can hire is really “the market” forcing employers (i.e. you and me) to pay more.

    Apparently you only believe in the power of the market when it really isn’t the market at all but rather government coercion.

  53. “Some crypto-Nazis post here, but I don’t think Vox is a Nazi.”

    I don’t think Vox Day is a card-carrying NSDAP member. However, when someone says, “Nazi Germany accomplished X in furtherance of genocide, therefore the United States can accomplish X in furtherance of non-genocide, and I consider X to be desirable,” then I think it’s not unreasonable to be concerned about conflation of objectives.

  54. But isn’t libertarian-Christian an oxymoron? Christians submit to the will of G-d, no?

    Libertarianism and Christianity are in no sense incompatible.

    To be a nonlibertarian Christian, you would have to (a) believe you know the will of God as it pertains to others and (b) believe you have the right to impose it on those others.

    I dare say the great majority of athiests or humanists or other nonChristians would pass the same nonlibertarian test if you substituted the respective analogue for “the will of God”.

  55. “Personally, I’d like to see all the illegals say, “To hell with it” and go home, just to find out how high the stacks of unwashed dishes and unplanted grass got during the month before the policy was reversed.”

    I would love to see that and I think we would find out that they are not nearly as vaulable as you think. Maybe I am wrong, but I would sure love to find out.

    Brian Courts,

    In a sense you are right. The problem is that by supplying industry with an endless stream of cheap exploitable labor, we reduce the incentive to invest in capital and increase productivity. The individual worker and society as a whole would be better off if employers raised productivity through investments in capital rather than just depending on paying lower wages. The only people who are not better off in that scenerio are the people in Mexico and Latin America who can no longer come here. There coming here, however, lowers wages and productivity in the US by decreasing investment in capital. Basically, open borders amounts to large numbers of Americans sacrificing their standard of living to help poor latin Americans who come here illegally. How spiteful of them to object to such a thing.

  56. The problem is that by supplying industry with an endless stream of cheap exploitable labor, we reduce the incentive to invest in capital and increase productivity. The individual worker and society as a whole would be better off if employers raised productivity through investments in capital rather than just depending on paying lower wages.

    Oh blah blah BLAH. So YOU know what’s best for industry? Better than industry does? Why don’t you just appoint yourself Central Planner, Comrade? This notion that immigration distorts the market is so baldly ass-backwards it feels like explaining that two plus two is four to point out that PROHIBITING the FREE MOVEMENT of labor that’s the distortion!!! NOT allowing it!! Free markets are about allowing things, not prohibiting them!! And that the labor must cross a national boundary to get where it wants to go does not change that one iota. Oh, what the hell, resume your bullshit rationalizations, why should I give a damn…

  57. Brian Courts,

    Yeah because they’re so evil to not want to have to face competition from hordes of foreigners from countries that are too fucked up to govern themselves. Why should we accept people from countries that cannot govern themselves according well according to semi-liberal ideals? They’re just going to bring their collectivist mindsets with them.

    Funny how you gloss over the fact that America started to go down hill in a very big way with the first major waves of immigration starting in the 1860s and then especially in the 20th century. Yeah, those Germans, Italians, Russians and Poles sure did a lot to build up our culture of freedom, eh? You can see the US take a nosedive in terms of freedom the moment we started taking on uncontrolled waves of immigrants.

    You may not want to hear it, but immigrants do affect our political culture and since most countries are illiberal, it’s usually not toward freedom. So what if they want to work? The “American Dream” isn’t freedom today, it’s big SUV, house and all that bullshit. There’s nothing honorable in that. That’s the kind of “dream” that makes a person willing to kiss the hand of Big Brother in order to get ahead.

    I’m all for immigration, but highly controlled immigration. No more than 25,000 immigrants a year. They want to live here, they better learn to appreciate America’s traditions and respect the Constitution. If they can’t do that, then they go back home and continue to wallow in their collectivist traditions.

  58. …America started to go down hill in a very big way with the first major waves of immigration starting in the 1860s and then especially in the 20th century. Yeah, those Germans, Italians, Russians and Poles sure did a lot to build up our culture of freedom, eh? You can see the US take a nosedive in terms of freedom the moment we started taking on uncontrolled waves of immigrants.

    At first I thought you meant this as satire.

    So…the immigrants are to blame for the loss of American freedom?

    Thank god; I can go back to thinking of Lincoln as a hero. He was born here.

  59. MikeT,

    You start off saying that the ultimate goal should be freedom… Last time I checked, freedom included travelling across borders.

    And then you say you want to control immigration – limiting freedom, that is.

    So, what you are in fact saying is : “I want freedom, but only for Americans. Those damn furriners don’t deserve it”

  60. not want to have to face competition from hordes of foreigners from countries that are too fucked up to govern themselves. Why should we accept people from countries that cannot govern themselves according well according to semi-liberal ideals? They’re just going to bring their collectivist mindsets with them.

    OK, let’s say you live in a somewhat affluent suburb on the edge of a rather poor and dysfunctional city in the US.

    Let’s say that the city has absolutely awful public schools, so most of the residents are unskilled. Let’s say that the people in that city all vote for very lefty candidates, so you can argue that the city-dwellers have a very collectivist mindset.

    Now let’s say that, for one reason or another, you are in one of the suburb’s lower income brackets. You grew up there, and now you work retail and live in an apartment complex in the suburb.

    Now, let’s suppose that city-dwellers get fed up with their dysfunctional city and a bunch of poor and poorly-educated people come into your suburb to find retail and construction and gardening work, and to live in apartments and attend better schools.

    What sort of response would be appropriate? Since this is a hypothetical, let’s assume that your suburb’s local government can do anything it wants, and we won’t worry about the fact that you can’t really ban US citizens from moving around in the US. It’s just a hypothetical, after all.

    Mind you, I’m not necessarily suggesting that it would be appropriate to use the law to bar an influx of city-dwellers, but I’ll leave the option on the table in case you’re interested. You are, of course, free to suggest something more creative and less draconian.

  61. Doug Bandow is a libertarian christian as is Ron Paul (I believe).

  62. To be a nonlibertarian Christian, you would have to (a) believe you know the will of God as it pertains to others and (b) believe you have the right to impose it on those others.

    By the way, I should clarify that these would be the requirements for you to be a nonlibertarian because you are a Christian.

    Most Christians are not libertarians for the same reason that most nonChristians are not libertarians: it has never occurred to them to question the authority that the state claims over the lives, liberty, and property of those in its dominion.

  63. “Oh, what the hell, resume your bullshit rationalizations, why should I give a damn…”

    Yes, Fyodor we will pretend that the laws of supply and demand don’t apply to labor. I guess I can’t blame you for wanting to nail the working class of America to the cross of open borders. What the hell, it won’t effect you so what do you care. I guess what bugs me the most is that you are galled by the fact that they don’t seem to like the idea of having their standard of living destroyed for the sake of open borders. How dare they not be willing to sacrifice themselves for the principles of libertarianism and transnationalism. You can continue with your rationalization that you have anyone’s best interest at heart other than your own.

  64. Wasn’t Jesus’ remark “Render unto Caeser…” an explicit recognition of the state and it’s role? If Christians are libertarians, dog turds are hotdogs. Vox is an imposter.

  65. “Wasn’t Jesus’ remark “Render unto Caeser…” an explicit recognition of the state and it’s role? If Christians are libertarians, dog turds are hotdogs. Vox is an imposter.”

    No, it was a recognition that government wasn’t the sollution to your problems or in anyway important to your salvation. That is libertarianism. Unfortunately, liberitarianism is now mostly confused with libertinism. Libertarianism says nothing one way or another about the existence of morals, it only says that people in their private capacity, not the government, should create those morals. Libertinism rejects the concept of morality alltogether and social mores all together regardless of whether it is enforced by the government or by private associations. No, Christians are not ever libertines, but they can be, although not necessarily, be libertarians. I can believe drugs are wrong and that people should not do them and still also believe that the government should not ban them. Believing that nothing is wrong and that people should do whatever they want, while often consistent with libertarianism, is libertinism, not libertarianism in a strict sense.

  66. The individual worker and society as a whole would be better off if employers raised productivity through investments in capital rather than just depending on paying lower wages.

    Except… most immigrants work in service jobs. The robot lawn-mowers and busboys aren’t quite up to the task yet.

    And I can’t let your ridiculous assertion that “most immigrants are illiterate” pass without calling bullshit, either.

  67. I’m all for immigration, but highly controlled immigration. No more than 25,000 immigrants a year. They want to live here, they better learn to appreciate America’s traditions and respect the Constitution. If they can’t do that, then they go back home and continue to wallow in their collectivist traditions.

    MikeT,

    Just for the sake of my sanity, could you please explain away the irony of excluding immigrants and their collectivist traditions by using collectivist arguments about America’s traditions?

  68. Wasn’t Jesus’ remark “Render unto Caeser…” an explicit recognition of the state and it’s role? If Christians are libertarians, dog turds are hotdogs. Vox is an imposter.

    The remark was

    Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

    And, yes, it is an explicit recognition of the state and its role.

    It is also an explicit recognition that the state and its role are entirely and absolutely separated from God and God’s role.

    It seems particularly clueless to think that this provides evidence that Christians cannot be libertarians. The only things this verse says on the matter are (1) Jesus believed in separation of God and state and (2) Jesus was not a revolutionary anarchist with a poor sense of timing.

  69. And I can’t let your ridiculous assertion that “most immigrants are illiterate” pass without calling bullshit, either.

    Mexico has improved its literacy rate through public education programs, but rapid population growth has made it more difficult to reduce the absolute number of Mexicans who cannot read or write. In 1970, for example, 26 percent of all Mexicans age 15 or older were illiterate. By 1995 only 10 percent of that age group was illiterate. This was still a group of about six million people, or about as many people as were illiterate 20 years earlier. There are no significant differences in literacy rates based on gender. However, literacy rates are lowest in those states that have the highest poverty levels and, typically, high percentages of Native Americans. The lowest rates are in the states of Chiapas, Oaxaca, and Guerrero, which all had literacy rates less than half the national average in 1997. The most urbanized centers boast the highest literacy rates; the Federal District, for example, had a literacy rate of more than 95 percent in 1997.

    http://www.countriesquest.com/north_america/mexico/people/education.htm

    The literacy rates in the poor areas of Mexico run less than 50%. That is literacy in Spanish, not English. It is the poor who are coming here. What are the chances any of these people are literate in English? Pretty small.

    Rywyn, I call bullshit on your rediculous PC fantasies.

  70. And I can’t let your ridiculous assertion that “most immigrants are illiterate” pass without calling bullshit, either.

    Mexico has improved its literacy rate through public education programs, but rapid population growth has made it more difficult to reduce the absolute number of Mexicans who cannot read or write. In 1970, for example, 26 percent of all Mexicans age 15 or older were illiterate. By 1995 only 10 percent of that age group was illiterate. This was still a group of about six million people, or about as many people as were illiterate 20 years earlier. There are no significant differences in literacy rates based on gender. However, literacy rates are lowest in those states that have the highest poverty levels and, typically, high percentages of Native Americans. The lowest rates are in the states of Chiapas, Oaxaca, and Guerrero, which all had literacy rates less than half the national average in 1997. The most urbanized centers boast the highest literacy rates; the Federal District, for example, had a literacy rate of more than 95 percent in 1997.

    http://www.countriesquest.com/north_america/mexico/people/education.htm

    The literacy rates in the poor areas of Mexico run less than 50%. That is literacy in Spanish, not English. It is the poor who are coming here. What are the chances any of these people are literate in English? Pretty small.

    Rywyn, I call bullshit on your rediculous PC fantasies.

  71. What are the chances any of these people are literate in English? Pretty small.

    Leaving aside the fact that your “proof” doesn’t actually prove what you said (“most of the people who want to come here from Latin America are illiterate”) and the fact that one could hardly expect non-Americans to arrive here speaking English–and that your confusion of the two is therefore misleading–nevertheless I find myself surrounded by immigrants–even Mexicans!–who, through diligence, have managed to learn to read and write English just fine. Try again.

  72. John, the literacy rate in LA is less than 50%.

  73. Oh, just deport anyone who can’t spell ridikulus!

  74. I am for open borders, but there are some good points about the costs of immigration. To pay for the services required by immigrants, I suggest we tax foreigners living abroad.

  75. taktix – one problem with the idea of allowing citizenship with military services is that it would make it easier for the pols to engage in the nation building adventurism we’re seeing in Iraq.

  76. Perhaps late to the circus on this, but…

    THE reason behind migrant labour in the US is the fact that there are so many jobs which the natives do not want to do. Apparently, the natives are over-qualified.

    I suggest putting the entire education establishment under the control of the federal government. With an expanded no-child-left-behind programme covering kindergarten-university, your system should produce no end of AMERICAN workers uniquely qualified for jobs like picking lettuce and nailing shingles.

    This should please both Democrats and big-government conservatives.

    My other suggestion will be a hit with religious conservatives. Call out the National Guard and oblige them to engage in heterosexual activities. If you make condoms illegal, the increase in the WHITE population should quickly (assuming you also do away with child-labour laws) make up for the loss of brown workers.

  77. Oh, just deport anyone who can’t spell ridikulus!

    Actually, we all know that’s really spelled “rediculous”!

    But irregardless, I would of agreed that their should be some kind English literacy standard that immigrants should be expected to adhere to if they want to be allowed to stay here. They really should tow the line on this.

    And make it apply to native-born Americans too. Take a spelling test when your 18 — if you fail, you have to leave. As a wise man once said, “Do on to other that you would have done on to you.”

  78. You’d have a bunch of deadbeats — Prince Harry

    Hey! At least he’s a serving soldier, unlike some heads of states (and their kids…)

  79. If in fact, we do re-open the camps and round up all the mezicans, I suggest that all those who stepped up and demanded that we do this should be forced to work the service and agricultural jobs that will then be unfilled.

    “You! Dobbs! You bettah be gettin’ to pickin’ that okra or there’s gonna be hell to pay!”

  80. JW-

    Well, if we arrest millions of people, wouldn’t it make sense to force them to earn their keep while imprisoned? Maybe we could force all the illegal immigrants to do agricultural and construction work.

    Oh, wait…

  81. John, the literacy rate in LA is less than 50%.

    Yes, How can that be if as Rywyn tells us all of the immigrants are literate? Wine, I don’t know if you meant to prove my point but you certainly did a good job of it.

  82. John – new fake email address?

    when you gain weight do you get a new GI joe halloween costume, or do have your old one adjusted?

    and hope that the english requirement isn’t held to natives -you’d be on the first bus to norway.

  83. Suburban government do use the law to keep urbanites from moving in. That’s what zoning laws are for.

    I suspect the real reason for overspending on schools is to create another way to keep suburbs out of the financial reach of supposedly-undesirable strangers.

  84. >> At Hit & Run, everyone is special.

    Which is just another way of saying no one is special.

  85. Yes, How can that be if as Rywyn tells us all of the immigrants are literate?

    I did? Somehow I don’t recall saying that.

    Wine, I don’t know if you meant to prove my point but you certainly did a good job of it.

    Wow, you’re really gullible. Not only do you twist words but apparently you hear only what you want to hear – regardless of how it was intended.

  86. thoreau—

    Shhhh!! Don’t give the nativists any ideas.

    “You mean we can get them to work for less than we pay ’em now? Maybe even for *free*? Start up them engines boys! Charge up the cattle prods! We’re a goin’ huntin wetbacks! Yeehah!”

  87. Of course, we could welcome as many Latin Americans as want to come — not as citizens, but as “aliens” — so that they would, over the years, become fully Americanized. Then, when they returned to their countries of origin, we might find that their influence would lead to more open and responsive government, freer markets, respect of private property, etc. Eventually, the entire hemisphere would be “the land of opportunity.”

    In order to make this plan work, though, we need to be the best exemplar of our ideals and institutions, because whatever example we do provide will be taken back to and applied in the other countries.

    I submit that we are doing a piss-poor job of living up to our own ideals, and that the best we can hope for is a hemisphere of poor clones of our own corruption. We need to look to our own house. But if we do, and clean it up properly, we can actually get “aliens” to export democracy for us, far more effectively than we are doing it in Iraq today.

  88. But irregardless, I would of agreed that their should be some kind English literacy standard that immigrants should be expected to adhere to if they want to be allowed to stay here. They really should tow the line on this.

    And make it apply to native-born Americans too. Take a spelling test when your 18 — if you fail, you have to leave. As a wise man once said, “Do on to other that you would have done on to you.”

    Priceless. Can everyone else spot the ten or so grammatical errors in Stevo’s little test?

  89. Priceless. Can everyone else spot the ten or so grammatical errors in Stevo’s little test?

    I count 8. Of course, their’s no doubt it would of been more priceless if EVERY other WORD was CAPITALIZED.

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