The Unintended Consequences of Immigration Reform

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Last Sunday, Reason Contributing Editor and SF Chron reporter Carolyn Lochhead published an absolutely invaluable piece on the unintended consequences of past efforts at immigration reform. Anyone interested in immigration issues will find this story a treasure-trove of historical information and thoughtful analysis. Snippets:

"The way we teach students is we say, in general, the unintended consequences of immigration reforms are more important than the intended consequences," said Philip Martin, a farm immigration expert at UC Davis….

Many experts believe that the current pattern of illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America was a consequence of the 1986 law's border tightening—followed by a tougher crackdown in 1996 that built fences in San Diego and El Paso.

"The perverse effect has been to dramatically lower return migration out of the country," said Douglas S. Massey, a Princeton University sociologist and co-director of the Mexican Migration Project, a longitudinal survey of more than 18,000 migrants, the largest of its kind. "So we've transformed what was before 1986 a circular flow of workers into an increasingly settled population of families. We have actually accelerated the rate of undocumented population growth in the United States and shifted it from a relatively less costly population of male workers into a much more costly population of families."

The problem, he said, is that by making border crossing "very risky and unpleasant and increasingly expensive, you prolong the length of the trips, you reduce the probability of return migration, and you make it more likely that migrants … just hunker down and stay."

The rate of migration from Mexico has actually stayed constant for the last two decades, Massey found. But the rate of return has fallen by half, from 50 percent to 25 percent….

"I don't know a single poll going back to the 1930s that's indicated the public wants more immigrants to come in as opposed to fewer," said [David] Reimers, the historian.

Defiance of public opinion is a striking constant of immigration policy, long fascinating political scientists. Major expansions were often achieved through unorthodox alliances joining business, ethnic groups, free-market think tanks and churches.

Whole thing here.

NEXT: Entitlement Reform Cometh Like a Thief in the Night

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  1. Best part was mentioning the 1954 government repatriation program “Operation Wetback”.

    Ya think I can get one of the old T-Shirts on E-Bay?

  2. 1954 government repatriation program “Operation Wetback”.

    Buy the book book!

  3. Ah, yes, good times, good times.

    How many of the current xenophobic “anti-illegal-immigrant” shouters would just love to see a repeat of this program?

    And, hey, if they happened to round up a couple of legal folks whose skin color matched the rest, who would really mind, right?

  4. Then there’s my friends in the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, who are 100% convinced that Halliburton is building extermination camps for a Final Solution to the immigrant problem.

    With friends like these…

  5. “The perverse effect has been to dramatically lower return migration out of the country,” said Douglas S. Massey”

    How any times does it need to be repeated,
    “correlation does not prove causation”

    What factors were considered? How has the economy influenced people? I could go on and on.

    “current xenophobic “anti-illegal-immigrant” shouters”

    Are you implying that those against open borders are xenophobic?

    I think it’s a rational position. Illegal immigrants are by-passing the process through which we make decisions in this country. By doing this they are the ones making decisions which effect all of us. Nobody else gets a say.

  6. With friends like these…who needs LSD?

  7. Clean Hands, it is not xenophobic to think that AMERICA should be for AMERICANS and MEXICO should be for MEXICANS.

    How do you think the government in Mexico would respond if MILLIONS of poor gringos moved to the north of Mexico and started demanding SPECIAL RIGHTS?

    But of course no American would move to Mexico, nor would any EUROPEAN move to an ARAB country.

    THIRD WOLRDERS move to successful WESTERN nations because they are incapable of building a CIVILIZED society of their OWN.

  8. THIRD WOLRDERS move to successful WESTERN nations because they are incapable of building a CIVILIZED society of their OWN.

    Come again? How is this not a racist attitude?

    Look, I’m with you in denying special rights to immigrants – legal or illegal. But I’m with them in insisting that they have the same rights that the Constitution provides for all other Americans.

  9. The link under my name has more on Massey and what he’s after. While Reason probably does, the vast majority of Americans probably do not agree with him that the United States should “abandon its illusions” and “accept the reality, the necessity, of North American integration.”

    On a related note, check out this picture from the San Diego illegal immigration march. That’s one you will never see on the TV news. Perhaps the LP should start doing outreach at such events.

  10. The link under my name has more on Massey and what he’s after. While Reason probably does, the vast majority of Americans probably do not agree with him that the United States should “abandon its illusions” and “accept the reality, the necessity, of North American integration.”

    On a related note, check out this picture from the San Diego illegal immigration march. That’s one you will never see on the TV news. Perhaps the LP should start doing outreach at such events.

  11. THIRD WOLRDERS move to successful WESTERN nations because they are incapable of building a CIVILIZED society of their OWN.

    Come again? How is this not a racist attitude?

    Look, I’m with you in denying special rights to immigrants – legal or illegal. But I’m with them in insisting that they have the same rights that the Constitution provides for all other Americans.

  12. Your caps lock KEY might be BROKEN.

  13. Clean Hands, go read VDARE and learn the TRUTH about how immigration contributes to CRIME, POVERTY, and DISEASE.

    http://www.vdare.com

    There is not an example of ONE successful multi-racial country in history that isn’t torn apart by racial STRIFE, but of course the Elite Media, Government, and Gloablist Elits who want their cheap labor won’t tell you the TRUTH.

  14. You Immigration LIBERALS won’t find my comments so funny when the ILLEGALS move to YOUR neighborhood.

    How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?

  15. How any times does it need to be repeated,
    “correlation does not prove causation”

    True enough, but correlation does SUPPORT causation. Now, if the causational hypothesis being proposed seems unlikely, the correlational evidence will be unconvincing. Personally I find this particular causational hypothesis perfectly plausible. Is there a reason why you don’t?

  16. You Immigration LIBERALS won’t find my comments so funny when the ILLEGALS move to YOUR neighborhood. How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?

    I don’t know, but apparently I share a board with SHOUTERS, who are much more annoying than any illegal immigrants I’ve ever encountered.

  17. How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?

    In San Antonio? Many.

  18. How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?

    In Port Chester, NY? Many.

  19. I live near HUNDREDS but I never ask their IMMIGRATION STATUS because they’re working in the US and pumping their MONEY into our ECONOMY. Plus, I’m not an ASSHOLE.

  20. How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?

    Illegals only? Hard to say, as that’s rather personal. There are plenty of Latin types all around here in Denver. I think the house across the alley from my backyard may be subsidized cause there always seems to be someone poor there. For example, we think the white trash guy who lived there a few years ago committed a major theft in our backyard shortly before moving away. Not too long ago I said good morning to his replacement and she said “Buenas Dias” back. One day her husband was feeding pigeons bread in the alley and I asked him not to do that, and he hasn’t since. While on a walk one day a young guy asked me the time, but when I started to answer, he said he didn’t understand English. So I showed him my watch.

    Pretty horrible stuff, those Mexicans.

    OTOH, a roommate’s car got hit by a Mexican looking dude who then took off and the cops couldn’t find him. Everyone covered for him in the housing complex where the cops thought he lived. Nothing’s for sure, but if he were illegal, that may have contributed to his disappearance. The pros and cons tilt distinctly toward hiding and away from fessing up and dealing with it when any contact at all with authorities may have severe consequences.

  21. Warning: anecdotal evidence

    I have known a few people who went (pre- 1991) to Saudi Arabia to work. None of them ever considered for an instant the possibility that they might “settle down” in the Kingdom of Saud. They went because they could make more money, faster, than they could staying home in the good old US of A. They returned with pockets bulging. The Saudis made it pretty easy for them to enter the country to work, and they made it really easy to for them leave.

    I have known a couple of “illegals” (who admitted it). They had no real intention of remaining in this country forever. Like my American acquaintances who went to Saudi Arabia, they came to the US in order to make a “stake” that would allow them to return home and start or buy a business.

    I wish we would/ could stop giving credence to this bogus assumption that every Mexican/ Guatamalan/ Peruvian/ Australian who enters this country does so with the expressed intention of staying forever. Let ’em in, let ’em work, let ’em leave, sez I.

    ps Greetings from the “not zero sum” universe

  22. There is not an example of ONE successful multi-racial country in history that isn’t torn apart by racial STRIFE, but of course the Elite Media, Government, and Gloablist Elits who want their cheap labor won’t tell you the TRUTH.

    There you have it, folks. A card-carrying Aryan Nation member.

    What do you propose to do with the Americans who are of unapproved racial backgrounds, IR? What’s your preferred Final Solution?

    Fucking nazi.

  23. Clean Hands, I am not an anti-semite and have nothing against black AMERICANS. In fact they will suffer AS MUCH as white Americans from uncontrolled immigration.

    In fact I think we should be MORE like Israel, we should treat Mexican immigrants the same way THEY would treat an ARAB immigrant, i.e. forbid them from IMMIGRATING.

    JAPAN is smart enough not to commit national suicide by letting MILLIONS of Chinese immigrate, so why is it racist when a WESTERN nation wants to do the SAME?

  24. So Japan, one of the most xenophobically homogenous cultures on the face of the planet isn’t racist?

    Whatever. Dirty Gaijin.

  25. If and when we allow open immigration so people can come and go as they will, how will safety and national security play out?

    By that I mean how will we respond if a green card applier has a criminal record? Personally, I’d say we should check their background for a time served/report them to Mexican authorities, and if they’ve served, let them through, although I can see INS not allowing them through on the simple basis of a criminal background.

    How can we keep terrorist cells out? How did our agencies fail us leading to 9/11?

    Furthermore, how flexible are green cards? Do they only give them to farm hands or specific, already applied for jobs or can they use them for general appliance work? What potential problems could arise from the creation of a Retail Ring, stores that would advertise open positions in Mexico and import English speaking nationals along with an organization of INS and independent shuttle lines?

  26. “How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?”

    in brooklyn? near sunset park? a whole fucking lot.

    they’ve got the same problem the italians do with radios (they do not believe in volume knobs), but other than that?

    i’m missing your point. perhaps you should type it in all-caps?

  27. Immigration Realist:

    Please rectify this statement:

    “There is not an example of ONE successful multi-racial country in history that isn’t torn apart by racial STRIFE, but of course the Elite Media, Government, and Gloablist Elits who want their cheap labor won’t tell you the TRUTH.”

    with this one:
    “Clean Hands, I am not an anti-semite and have nothing against black AMERICANS.”

    You make my head asplode.

  28. By that I mean how will we respond if a green card applier has a criminal record?

    “Open borders” advocates have no issues, to my knowledge, of rejecting criminals.

  29. Mediageek, I never said ANYTHING about Jews. I said neoliberal ELITES and multi-national CORPORATIONS want cheap labor at the expense of the COMMON MAN.

    They want to destroy national culture for the sake of the DOLLAR.

  30. Soooooo… Jews and Blacks are somehow more racially homogenous with righteous white folk than are Hispanics, in your twisted world, IR?

    I’ll quote again, for clarity:

    There is not an example of ONE successful multi-racial country in history that isn’t torn apart by racial STRIFE…

  31. The Saudis made it pretty easy for them to enter the country to work, and they made it really easy to for them leave.

    The difference being that other than money there is no reason to want to live in Saudi Arabia if you are white. There are an awful lot of reasons to want to live in the United States other than just the jobs if you are brown.

    The people I know who worked in Saudi during that era were making good money too, although as time went by they began to get the hint that they were wearing out their welcome.

  32. “i’m missing your point. perhaps you should type it in all-caps?”

    Little known fun fact: Aristotle used all caps. That’s why people still quote him to this day.

  33. Clean Hands, blacks were FORCED to come here, they are already HERE and they are assimilated and AMERICAN. And Jews are not a RACE, they are WHITE.

    You don’t think my assesment of multi-ethnic countries dissolving eventually into CIVIL WAR and DISASTER wasn’t correct? Why don’t you ask YUGOSLAVIA, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, or IRAQ about how sucessful multi-culturalism is?

    Are you saying because we have ONE major minority here, we should have TWO?

  34. Last I checked, the US hasn’t dissolved into civil war or disaster. And we’ve been multi-racial for oh, about 250 years or more.

    Not to say that there haven’t been bad times. But your racist viewpoint of the world does not solve such problems – it is the cause of such problems.

    Go jerk off onto a mirror, you fucking nazi – then you’re at least fucking someone whose racial makeup you approve of.

  35. Are you implying that those against open borders are xenophobic?
    Of course that’s the implication; moral superiority and all that rot.

    Illegal immigrants are by-passing the process through which we make decisions in this country. By doing this they are the ones making decisions which effect all of us. Nobody else gets a say.
    Quite so.

    If and when we allow open immigration so people can come and go as they will…
    That’s not something “we” can do unless other countries go along, which they won’t. It’d be nice if the various countries were like the various states, but they’re not, and they won’t be in the forseeable future.

  36. “You don’t think my assesment of multi-ethnic countries dissolving eventually into CIVIL WAR and DISASTER wasn’t correct? Why don’t you ask YUGOSLAVIA, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, or IRAQ about how sucessful multi-culturalism is?”

    I’d have to say it has less to do with the color of their skin, and more to do with their idiotic, hateful attitudes.

    Attitudes not unlike yours.

  37. blacks were FORCED to come here, they are already HERE

    Oh, so you see Clean Hands, the blacks are to be tolerated because of a logistical / historical problem and there’s nothing he can do about them now – otherwise he’d be against letting them live here too.

    I think you all ought to use the manic use of capital letters be a flag to ignore whatever else the ignorant racist xenophobe has to say. Feeding the trolls just encourages and breeds more of them. 🙂

  38. Oh, wait, let me do that one over again:

    I’d have to SAY it has less to do with the COLOR of their SKIN, and more to do with their IDIOTIC, hateful ATTITUDES.

    ATTITUDES not unlike YOURS.

    *clears throat*

    How was I?

  39. Except, Brian, that as I pointed out above, he dares not actually breed, as he cannot be assured that anyone else would be as racially pure as he himself is.

  40. “Feeding the trolls just encourages and breeds more of them. :)”

    Maybe Immigration Realist and Jersey McJones will hook up. We could shoot video of it and put it on the web. Somebody out there would be willing to pay to indulge that particular fetish.

    *shudders*

  41. A racist is what a Liberal calls you when you’ve beaten them in an argument.

  42. I’ve seen this argument many times. Open borders would allow Mexicans to move in and out of America based upon demand. Thus, as demand for workers increased we would see an increase in migration, once they earned money they would return.

    From a purely market view, this seems to be very attractive. Yet, from a societal view this constant migration causes problems of its own.

    First, this is a largely male, transient population. Demographically, single males in their twenties who are transient have the highest propensity for crime. Thus, I think it could be argued that by forcing Mexicans to permanately immigrate we have seen an overall lower crime rate. Once immigrants bring their wives and children, they establish homes. These homes will be relatively stable and law abiding. Perhaps, one of the reasons that crime has reduced so dramatically in the past decade is because of a limitation not on overall immigration, but upon transient immigration. This seems to be supported by the fact that crime rates for recent immigrants are much lower than the genral population.

    Further, since these immigrants are now permanent residents they are more likely to learn the social norms, political institutions, and the English language. Thus, the huge marches are a sign of Americanization regardless of whether they carry American or Mexican Flags.

    Regards

    Joe Dokes

  43. “A racist is what a Liberal calls you when you’ve beaten them in an argument.”

    And a liberal is what a conservative calls a libertarian when he’s to much of a dumbshit to tell the difference.

  44. IR, you think you’ve beaten people because you’ve shouted enough?

    You asked for a citation of a nation that has successfully integrated multiple races. I gave you one. What’s your next shot?

    Fucking nazi.

  45. Mr. F. Le Mur,

    Why can’t “we” allow open immigration unless other countries go along?

    Do you also think that “we” can’t allow free trade unless other countries go along?

  46. You think Ameirca has sucessfully intergrated blacks and hispanics?

    Then why do more blacks and hispanics give birth out of wedlock, commit more crimes, and form a greater part of the prison population than whites?

    Why are they more likely to drop out of high school and score lower on standardized test scores?

    Why is there so much VIOLENT CRIME on the STREETS of our CITIES, much more than in a homogeneous nation like JAPAN or SWEDEN?

    You call that succesfful assimilation?

  47. From: Timothy
    To: The Reason Staff
    Subject: Trolls

    Whereas I am certainly not asking for any sort of action be taken against them, and whereas I am guilty of feeding them myself on occasion, I have a question. You can see our IP addresses, correct? As such can you confirm or deny the following statements:

    1) Jersey McJones is Immigration Realist
    2) Jersey McJones is amazingdrx
    3) Dave W. actually works for ADM

    Regards,
    Timothy

  48. Joe, you raise some interesting points, but I see a couple of possible flaws in your reasoning.

    I think that there’s a lot more than just immigration that drives the overall crime rate in this country. It’d be interesting to see an analysis of this angle, but for the moment, it doesn’t seem like it would be a major contributor.

    If anything, the fact that immigrants who might have returned home during the down season are now hanging around, bored, possibly running out of money, and unable to return safely, might be a contributing factor to an increase in crime, no?

    Just a thought.

  49. IR,

    “But of course no American would move to Mexico,….”

    Actually, there has been a growing trend in Americans retiring to various places in Latin America for more than a decade.

    “THIRD WOLRDERS move to successful WESTERN nations because they are incapable of building a CIVILIZED society of their OWN.”

    And tens of millions of Europeans moved to the U.S., if you are to be believed, because they were incapable of building a civilized society of the own including, I expect, your ancestors.

    “And Jews are not a RACE, they are WHITE.”

    True, Jews are not a race. They are not, however, all white. Clearly, you don’t know anything about Jews or Israel.

    “How many MEXICANS do YOU live next to?”

    Literally next to? None. On one side I have a Floridian. On the other, a Scandinavian. (For a while the Floridian wasn’t picking up after his dog. Filthy.)

    On the block, there are at least a dozen Mexicans. Plus a few Persians, Chinese, and Filipinos. Those are only the ones I know of. Within 1/8 of a mile there are thousands of Mexicans and other Latin Americans.

    In terms of businesses, I’d guess at least 1/2 are owned and/or staffed by immigrants from Mexico, other Latin American countries, China, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos and India.

    Please elaborate on your general statements with details including your experience living in and knowledge of which third world countries.

    Fear of third world immigrants and “multi-culturalism” fascinates me. I hear lots of general statements but few or no specifics. Every time I try thinking it through on my own I end up concluding that people who hold these views just hate tacos and/or believe they are entitled to a house, yard, 2 cars, 3 TVs, cable, and a nice vacation just because they can use a shovel.

  50. PERHAPS because in JAPAN you have no CIVIL RIGHTS, and the police are free to detain you, and BEAT you until you CONFESS to being the perpetrator of the CRIME.

    I MEAN, like, that MIGHT have, YOU KNOW, something to DO WITH it, DUDE.

  51. IR, you once again show your white supremacist colors (so to speak).

    I can’t answer for people who commit crimes. I can point out that many of the laws of this country (in particular, drug laws) are tilted towards jailing members of certain races. (Indeed, marijuana was originally outlawed on explicity racist grounds.)

    As for test scores, there’s some argument as to whether the tests themselves are racially biased, but I’ve never much bought that. I do think that there is a cultural issue among some communities in this nation as to the value of the sort of education that results in high test scores. I don’t see this in racial terms, though, but rather in terms of folks’ drive for success for themselves and their kids.

    So far, I haven’t seen any persuasive argument from you in support of your proposal to do something drastic about hispanic immigrants.

    Too, I’d like to hear what your actual proposals are as to what exactly should be done about them. Round up all the light-brown people and drop them off at the nearest border crossing? Execute them? What?

  52. Build a wall and machine-gun them at the border in 5…4…3..

  53. 1) Militarize the borders.

    2) End all benefits to illegals.

    3) Fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals and throw people who violate the law again in prison.

    4) End birthright citizenship for anchor babies so that illegals who pop out kids don’t get citizenship for them or their children and make it retroactive to 1964.

    5) Have a massive roundup of all illegals in the US and deport them using the military.

  54. Lord, I can’t resist.

    A racist is what a Liberal calls you when you’ve beaten them in an argument.

    mediageek provided a better response than this, but actually, IR, we’re all racists, we all take race into consideration now and again. You, sir, are a bigot.

  55. None of these five steps do anything about the legal hispanic immigrants, IR. How do you propose to solve that problem, since you see that as leading inevitably to civil war and destruction of the United States.

    Oh, and what will you do about all of the Asians who’ve immigrated? Clearly, they’re not racially pure, either.

  56. IR can’t be JMJ, because he’s funny. JMJ is just boring.

  57. “The difference being that other than money there is no reason to want to live in Saudi Arabia if you are white. There are an awful lot of reasons to want to live in the United States other than just the jobs if you are brown.”

    My response is that what you say is not completely true; it is certainly not completely false.

    I also admit that much of what the Americans in Saudi were doing was high-skill work as opposed to low-. Although one was a gardener (horticulturist) in some princely palace; not a petroleum engineer.

    However, I believe [an assertion which I cannot readily support with hard evidence] that most people have a predisposition to return home, even Mexicans working in America. The premise of the article linked above is that, given the opportunity to move freely between countries, some significant portion of “illegal immigrants” would behave more like temporary guest workers. They are trapped in the north by the risk of not getting back across the border.

    Perhaps we might expect an additional benefit resulting from a freer flow of human resources back and forth over the border: exportation of “our” attitudes regarding political corruption.

  58. Close enough.

  59. Why is there so much VIOLENT CRIME on the STREETS of our CITIES, much more than in a homogeneous nation like JAPAN or SWEDEN?

    Actually there isn’t. Except for homicides crime rates in the US are lower or not much higher than many countries. Japan actually has a higher rate of assault.

    Your posts indicate that you are incredibly ignorant. Perhaps that is why you are a bigot. They do tend to go together.

  60. Hey, Immigration Realist, Japan has some of the strictest gun control in the entire world and very little gun crime.

    I presume that you believe gun prohibitionism to be a smart thing to institute in the USA, as well.

  61. Media, we have an EPIDEMIC of crime on the streets of our cities, we need stronger drug and gun laws to end the anarchy of gang crime in this country.

  62. C’mon “Realist” let’s here a response from you.

    After all, you’re the smart guy who makes LIBERAL use of the caps lock key.

  63. Media, we have an EPIDEMIC of crime on the streets of our cities, we need stronger drug and gun laws to end the anarchy of gang crime in this country.

    Feel free to back up your ridiculous claims with anything beyond more rhetoric.

  64. Clean Hands,

    Thanks for the comments. I agree the overall crime rate, both its rises and falls are difficult to explain. I also find flaws in virtually every explanation that I’ve heard.

    I would argue that the aging population is the primary reason for lower crime rates. At the same time, my point is that having a population constantly moving back and forth between the two nations is a recipe for higher crime rates at least in these border regions. Yes, the guy waiting around for the next job is also likely to get into trouble, but if he has a wife and kids with him, she is likely to push him into some form of work.

    My, larger point though is that some see this “permanent” immigration as a “problem” while at the same time they see “transient” immigration as less of a problem. I disagree. I would rather have people moving here and establishing a permanent presense, with a community hearth.

    Regards

    Joe Dokes

  65. …we need stronger drug and gun laws to end the anarchy of gang crime in this country…

    Oh, goody. A 100% statist.

    Hey, IR, since most drugs and nearly all use of guns are already illegal, why hasn’t the problem simply disappeared?

  66. “…to end the anarchy of gang crime in this country.”

    I don’t care what you’re cooking, I’m not coming to your house for dinner; sounds like a scary neighborhood.

  67. MP, go to VDARE and see for yourself and read about the epidemic of violent hispanic gangs in southern california.

    http://www.vdare.com

  68. “Media, we have an EPIDEMIC of crime on the streets of our cities, we need stronger drug and gun laws to end the anarchy of gang crime in this country.”

    I will now commence to calling you a commiesimp asswipe.

    Thusly:
    Immigration “Realist” you are a commiesimp asswipe.

  69. I agree, Joe, that I’m overjoyed to see folks come here and become productive members of the community. (Unlike IR, I do not check their melanin content in forming my opinions.)

    The larger point, in the context of this discussion, is the means by which we cause that to happen. Should it be because of coercive immigration laws, or, perhaps, because transient immigrants find that they like it here, and want to stay and establish families, businesses, etc.?

  70. Hey, IR, since you hate freedom so much, why don’t you move to North Korea?

  71. MP, go to VDARE and see for yourself and read about the epidemic of violent hispanic gangs in southern california.

    Now there’s a legitimate, trustworthy source for socio-economic research.

  72. Not only have SEVERAL MEXICANS moved into MY APARTMENT COMPLEX over the past couple of years, but SEVERAL INDIANS (as in from INDIA, where they aren’t even CHRISTIANS) have moved into my VERY APARTMENT BUILDING. I am one of ONLY TWO WHITE MALES in my building. And come to think OF it, there are THREE MEXICAN DUDES living right across the way from me. TWENTY FEET AWAY!!!! I AM A MINORITY IN MY VERY OWN APARTMENT BUILDING. And as a RESULT of all this so-called “IMMIGRATION” I now have a PRETTY GOOD MEXICAN RESTAURANT and a PRETTY DECENT INDIAN BUFFET within walking distance of MY HOME.

    ALSO, all those INDIANS are turning this country into a THIRD WORLD, COMPUTER-PROGRAMMING, NETWORK MAINTENANCING HELLHOLE. Not TO mention THAT now people IN my laundry room ARE now always having conversations IN foreign languages THAT I can’t even undeRstand. Also NOW I’M HUNGRY FOR BOTH BURRITOS AND CURRY and I don’t know which TO choose!

  73. Media,
    If you love the idea of “DIVERSITY” and living in a CRIME RIDDEN THIRD WORLD nation, why don’t you move to BRAZIL?

  74. BECAUSE Brazil IS HOMOGENEOUS.

    I’ve always known racism to be endemic to communism (mostly anti-semitism) but I never thought I’d meet a commie who was so open about it.

  75. Hey, Realist, how’s that Hammer AND SICKEL tattoo you’ve got?

  76. My political views are most in-line with men such as LOU DOBSS and PAT BUCHANNAN, I am harldy Communist!

    Is anyone who is against so-called “free trade”, globalization, and open borders a communist now?

  77. DOBBS/ BUCHANAN ’08!

    Brought to you by:

    Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer- the unofficial Official Beer of Antigloblalists Everywhere

  78. “Diversity” is out, dude. We’re all about “pluralism” now.

  79. “My political views are most in-line with men such as LOU DOBSS and PAT BUCHANNAN, I am harldy Communist!”

    Really? You know who else had tight immigration controls? Russia.
    You know who else blamed the bourgeois for selling out their country men for MONEY?

    Yep, the COMMUNIST party.

    You know WHAT other NAtions HAd STRONG ANTIgun and ANTIdrug laws?

    How about East Germany, North Korea, AND the USSR.

    You, MY FRIEND are a MUTHAFUCKIN’ Hammer ‘n’ Sickle-lickin’ bitch.

  80. The problem, he said, is that by making border crossing “very risky and unpleasant and increasingly expensive, you prolong the length of the trips, you reduce the probability of return migration….”

    So they are saying that after a period in the US making money, the average Mexican illegal who wants to go home does so by making another dangerous trek across the desert, or swims the Rio Grande? They don’t just buy a bus ticket? We don’t stop illegals from leaving the US, do we? And Mexico doesn’t stop Mexican citizens from entering, do they?

    The only way the statement makes sense to me is if fewer illegals are leaving because they know it’s harder to get back into the US. So I don’t think these “unintended consequences” are very convincing: “Make it easier for illegals to get here, because maybe a higher proportion of them will leave at some point, knowing how easy it is to come back later!”

  81. Oh, and I’d like to point out that the username “Immigration Realist” fails The Fancy Ketchup Test.

  82. I WISH the MEXICANS in my NEIGHBORHOOD were CRIMINALS because THEN it WOULD be a LOT EASIER for me to FIND MARIJUANA FOR SALE.

  83. The fact that I get called both a Nazi and Communist on the same thread by two different people says more about the people on this thread then it does about me.

    How can I be BOTH?

    I am for the middle class of this country and against the race to the bottom and illegals under cutting our wages.

    I also want to keep dangerous drugs that cloud the mind and destroy the soul out of the hands of innocent people. Like any sane person would.

    I want to preserve the culture of every nation instead of each one being wiped out by the lowest common denominator GLOBALIST plastic culture.

    Are Lou Dobbs and Pat Buchanan also COMMUNISTS now?

  84. IR, you keep trying to get people to visit the vdare Web site. This simply provides additional support to my contention that you’re a racist and a bigot.

    Here’s just one gem from this site you admire so much: an article referring to Somali immigrants as “garbage.”

    Naw, no racism there.

  85. kommie kommie kommie.

    look at the kommie.

    mommie – there’s a kommie.

    kommie kommie kommie.

    what’s the US version of “L’Internationale”?

    kommie kommie kommie.

  86. What in Sam Hill is going on around here?

  87. Heard dat, Jennifer.

  88. What you (and Dobbs, and Buchannan, in spades) have in common with Communists is your unwavering faith in the ability of the gov’t to control society, and the righteousness of using it to that end.

    Whether you do that through a massive welfare state, or a massive warfare state, the result is exactly the same, time after time in history: human misery of unbelievable dimension and duration.

  89. The fact that I get called both a Nazi and Communist on the same thread by two different people says more about the people on this thread then it does about me.

    How can I be BOTH?

    Umm…dude, they’re the same thing. Fascism and Communism are EXACTLY equivalent MORALLY. They ALSO share many of the SAME PROPERTIES, up to an including DEATH CAMPS full of JEWS.

  90. “How can I be BOTH?”

    A statist is A STATIST is A statist is a STATIST…

  91. “A is A.” Eh?

  92. “”A is A.” Eh?”

    If this isn’t the slogan for the Canadian Objectivist Movement, it really should be.

  93. oooh. IR is gone. i guess the monitor at the group home discovered who was playing at the internet. and he soiled himself, too. naughty. naughty.

    now, go off and take your magic pill, and tomorrow you can play torquemada. isn’t that a precious IR. i’m sure your mom does regret taking drugs when she was pregnant. i know. you don’t know who your father is. i know. but don’t worry: he was deported. he lived across from Jason and got raided. he bye bye. there there.

  94. LOL!

  95. ROFL, VM. You, too, mediageek. This has been fun! We should get together every day and beat the rhetorical shit out of bigotted statists. 🙂

  96. Duh. The government provided a mass amnesty in 1986 and several more amnesties up to and including in 1996.

    Once someone has permanent residency they’re not going to leave. At that point they can get all the goodies like free education, the benefit of affirmative action, free health care, the earned income tax credit, and everything else our elaborate welfare state has to offer.

    If the government would stop granting amnesty and they knew they had NO chance at citizenship without going through the legal channels they would work here for a period and then they probably would go home.

    There are towns all over Mexico and Central America where the populations are literally 40% or less of what they were 10-20 years ago because all the working age people are going to the US. Only elderly and young children are left. This is a disastrous long term policy for these countries.

  97. Once someone has permanent residency they’re not going to leave.

    And? I assume you’re not going to leave either – why should they?

    At that point they can get all the goodies like free education, the benefit of affirmative action, free health care, the earned income tax credit, and everything else our elaborate welfare state has to offer.

    Again, so? If your point is that we shouldn’t have an elaborate welfare state, then I would agree with you. But whatever the current level of government handouts, it doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong for you or anyone else to tell me who I can associate with (i.e. hire, work for, rent to/from, or just invite over for dinner for that matter).

    This is a disastrous long term policy for these countries.

    Maybe, but life isn’t experienced by countries it is experienced by individuals and apparently some individuals want to work and here and other individuals want to hire them – it should be nobody else’s business.

  98. What you (and Dobbs, and Buchannan, in spades) have in common with Communists is your unwavering faith in the ability of the gov’t to control society, and the righteousness of using it to that end.

    CH, very true and very well said.

  99. DOBBS/ BUCHANAN ’08!

    Brought to you by:

    Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer- the unofficial Official Beer of Antigloblalists Everywhere

    What are you ragging on PBR for, man? PBR is dirt cheap and delicious.

  100. “The fact that I get called both a Nazi and Communist on the same thread by two different people says more about the people on this thread then it does about me.

    How can I be BOTH?”

    you are extraordinarily talented.

    really, i mean that. i have no idea if you’re joking or not. realist, surrealist…whatever.

    you’re my idealist.

  101. Crazy thread.

    Interesting how people keep bringing up Yugoslavia to make their anti-pluralism point. Although they aren’t the only two factions to consider, Serbians and Croatians are racially indistinguishable (just don’t tell them that after 1991). I could certainly tell a Jew from a Gent, and of course either from a Black AMERICAN much more easily than a Serb from a Croat. Their beef basically boils down to religious/cultural differences dating back to the splitting of the Roman empire, and a whole lot of baggage from WWII. Their languages are considered dialects of the same language, though they have exaggerated the differences since 1991. Certainly a more homogenous bunch than say, denizens of Zurich and Geneva. Come to think of it, I wonder if IR has ever heard of Switzerland?

  102. Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer- the unofficial Official Beer of Antigloblalists Everywhere

    Wait, PBR is for antiglobalists now? I thought that was Miller.

  103. now, go off and take your magic pill,
    VM, your psychological projections nearly rise to the level of “silly.”

    Something I just posted in another thread:
    “Eighth Grade In Mexico
    Sounds Like A Low-Ranked American University To Me”
    http://fredoneverything.net/MexText.shtml

    The author is a Gringo who moved to Mexico.

  104. So Japan, one of the most xenophobically homogenous cultures on the face of the planet isn’t racist?
    We should pity the Japanese: their high standards of living and education, low crime rates, freedoms in a stable society, good health and long lifespans can hardly compensate for their appalling lack of diversity.

  105. Brian Courts,

    I was trying to make the point that the lack of circular migration post-1986 has nothing to do with increased border security (there is no restriction preventing them from returning home) and everything to do with periodic amnesties and the incentives that they create.

    The problem with your atomistic argument is that all those immigrants you want to hire, have dinner with, etc. have to cross someone elses property or use public property to get to you unless they own a helicopter that they can fly directly to your backyard. That is the real world. You can pontificate about some libertarian fantasy with no public roads, airports, etc. but that is never going to happen. The size and cost of the California welfare state are highly correlated with the massive amount of illegal and legal immigration to the state. It is only a matter of time before the state goes belly up.

  106. have to cross someone elses property

    No they don’t – no more than you do to get somewhere. I’m saying they should be free to move and live and work where they want to just like you.

    or use public property

    Yes, of course, again just like you. What I’m saying is they ought to be free to work, and hence pay taxes, to support those very roads that we all use. In other words, there’s nothing magical about being born on this side of some arbitrary line. You’re free to move to a different state and use that state’s roads and public property aren’t you? Why is this fundamentally different? Presumably if you do so you will then be supporting those roads just like someone who moves to this country.

    You can pontificate about some libertarian fantasy with no public roads, airports, etc. but that is never going to happen.

    Um, ok, I never said any such thing, nor would my position require anything remotely like that. That is totally irrelevant to my point that people should be free to live and work where they want. It doesn’t take private roads to do that anymore than it would take then to allow you the freedom to move to a different state, as mentioned above.

    The size and cost of the California welfare state are highly correlated with the massive amount of illegal and legal immigration to the state.

    Again, so what? That is a practical problem for California, but it doesn’t carry any weight against the moral argument about basic human freedom any more than it would if one were using it to argue about the potential costs of ending slavery or Jim Crow laws.

    It is only a matter of time before the state goes belly up.

    Well if allowing people a basic human rights helps bring an end to the welfare state then I see that as a double win for freedom.

  107. If and when we allow open immigration so people can come and go as they will…

    That’s not something “we” can do unless other countries go along, which they won’t.

    Mr. F. Le Mur,

    Why can’t “we” allow open immigration unless other countries go along?

    Do you also think that “we” can’t allow free trade unless other countries go along?

  108. Why can’t “we” allow open immigration unless other countries go along?
    That’s different than the original statement:
    If and when we allow open immigration so people can come and go as they will…
    If the US allows open immigration people will be able to come, but not go, as they will.

    I’ve been on the serious verge of moving to three different countries: England, France and Mexico, having lived briefly in the last two, both of which have some cultural differences I happen to find appealing. The first two seem to prefer welfare cases over people who work, as in:
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_1_oh_to_be.html

    Though perhaps one-sided open immigration would serve as a good example. And Mexican pot would be a lot cheaper.

    Do you also think that “we” can’t allow free trade unless other countries go along?
    I dunno. Does that ever happen, or is there generally some mutual agreement – NAFTA, etc.?
    What has happened when it’s one sided? Does the one side get advantages, or get screwed?

  109. If the US allows open immigration people will be able to come, but not go, as they will.

    Until they renounce their native citizenship, which generally happens only when they become naturalized US citizens, they will always be able to go back.

    Does that ever happen, or is there generally some mutual agreement – NAFTA, etc.? What has happened when it’s one sided? Does the one side get advantages, or get screwed?

    It is rare to see unilateral trade liberalization, for simple public choice reasons. Concentrated interests have the most political power, and most of the benefit of trade liberalization is widely dispersed across the economy. The fact that the latter in toto always outweighs the former is rarely even discussed. Bilateral liberalization allows recruiting other concentrated interests on the pro-liberalization side to counter the protectionists and possibly get something passed.

    Of course, England invented trade liberalization in the 1840s. The modern-day case of unilateral trade liberalization I am most familiar with is Australia’s. They unilaterally dropped most of their tariffs starting in the 1980’s, with very good results.

  110. On the Australian story, it is actually a fun browse wandering around the website of the Australian Government Productivity Commission, the “principal review and advisory body on microeconomic policy and regulation.”

    Quoting one of the Chairman’s speeches you can find there:

    However, Australia has not been a conventional participant in multilateral negotiations. For many years our main export interest, agriculture, was essentially off limits, providing little scope for reciprocal concessions, so we were forced to think about the domestic implications of reducing our own trade barriers (and we pioneered tools of analysis to help us with that).

    This turned out to be an important advantage, as we were among the first countries to act on the recognition that a country gains most of all from reducing its own trade barriers, regardless of what other countries do.

    Australia’s achievements in this respect have been substantial, with average effective manufacturing tariffs falling from 36 to 5 per cent over the past three decades. These reductions have brought their own gains in efficiency and consumer welfare, but they also created competitive pressure for the reform of other sources of inefficiency within the economy, including in public utilities and other economic infrastructure and in labour markets.

    The upshot has been an economy characterised since the early 1990s by historically strong productivity and income growth — and an unprecedented capacity to withstand external shocks.

  111. B. Courts

    “Again, so what? That is a practical problem for California, but it doesn’t carry any weight against the moral argument about basic human freedom”

    Please define “basic human freedom”.

    Since the payments for social services are paid for by the wealthiest 20% of the US population (I make this point because the poor, here as citizens or illegally don’t pay squat) with the understanding that the taxes will be used for the betterment of the US public. Why does someone from another country have the right to jump in line?

    I think the term finite is important to consider. There are only so many resources this isn’t magical fantasy land. You are advocating providing less to citizens by spreading our social services over a larger population. What’s your argument for this.”Again, so what? That is a practical problem for California, but it doesn’t carry any weight against the moral argument about basic human freedom”

    Please define “basic human freedom”.

    Since the payments for social services are paid for by the wealthiest 20% of the US population (I make this point because the poor, here as citizens or illegally don’t pay squat) with the understanding that the taxes will be used for the betterment of the US public. Why does someone from another country have the right to jump in line?

    I think the term finite is important to consider. There are only so many resources this isn’t magical fantasy land. You are advocating providing less to citizens by spreading our social services over a larger population. What’s your argument for this.

  112. oops.. guess I should be careful when doing a cut and paste.

  113. There are only so many resources this isn’t magical fantasy land.

    The “not zero sum” universe that P Brooks sent greetings from upthread does not have any immigration restrictions. Come on in. You might like it here.

  114. Mr. F. Le Mur,

    On your request for examples of one-sided free trade, I should lose my “not zero sum” universe citizenship for forgetting Hong Kong!

    Hong Kong went from an impoverished rock to matching their former colonists’ GDP in less than two generations — all on the basis of uncompromised free trade.

  115. I didn’t postulate a zero sum situation. If there are 100 apples to split between 10 people each get 10. If they’re split split between 20 each get 5.

    Also I understand that as immigrants assimilate they will acrue wealth, education etc. I’m concerned about who will bear the brunt of the growing pains. As I’ve said before on this site- Who will have to actually display the courage of your convictions?

  116. I didn’t postulate a zero sum situation. If there are 100 apples to split between 10 people each get 10. If they’re split split between 20 each get 5.

    That is truly beautiful.

  117. OK, that’s the definition of zero sum. I guess I am saying in that in cases like health care it is a zero sum situation.

    “That is truly beautiful”

    Suck it.

  118. I guess I am saying in that in cases like health care it is a zero sum situation.

    Not if 3 of the 10 are medical professionals. Not if 5 of the 7 others pay for their own health care.

    Not if, going back to your apples example, the 10 new people are better at growing apples than the 10 prior people. You might end up with 150 apples to split among the 20 people. Not only that, but those of the original 10 who were less competent or more expensive at growing apples are now free to do something else like grow oranges. So now you’ve got 150 apples plus 100 oranges to split among the 20 people. The new taxes on the new economic benefits just may pay for the extra health care you so worry about.

  119. I was specifically talking about the poor. People who’s annual income is less than 20,000 per year.

    How are they going to contribute to the efficiency of our health care system? Efficiency is not a word you generally see associated with health care or government social services bureaucracy.

    Are you saying that the poor will recieve better health care if there are more poor people?

  120. Are you saying that the poor will recieve better health care if there are more poor people?

    Actually, yes. I am no expert on health care in poor countries, but I would expect the average health care quality of the 20 people after the 10 immigrate to the US to be higher than that of the 20 people before the 10 immigrate. The new immigrants will at least have more money to buy more health care than before. And the economy in toto will be wealthier and better able to pay for its silly welfare programs as well.

    I am curious why you consider it a legitimate government function to forbid people to migrate as they wish but not to, say, strip every high school dropout of his citizenship and ship him out of the country.

  121. “I would expect the average health care quality of the 20 people after the 10 immigrate to the US to be higher than that of the 20 people before the 10 immigrate”

    By what mechanism? Economic models are just that models. The real world doesn’t operate like smooth plots on a graph, it’s full of spikes and valleys. I would agree with you if increased wealth from economic growth was evenly distributed (through market forces not through handouts/higher taxes for the wealthy).

    “I am curious why you consider it a legitimate government function to forbid people to migrate as they wish”

    Because I would like to have some input into how my environment/culture changes, why should others desires trump my mine? They may but removing
    mechanisms to control immigration means immigrant’s decisions/desires are the ones that are satisfied by default. There can be no discussion. Much of it (change) is out of our hands but in some cases like immigration we can have an effect on how fast our population grows or the quality of human capital (by quality I mean education/skill set). There are very few things I would like the government to be involved in, immigration is one of them- along with civil defense, infrastructure and enforcement of civil rights.

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