Liberation Biology

Something about this doesn't compute. A teacher is fired from her job at a Catholic school because she used in vitro fertilization, and:

Catholic teaching holds that the procedure is morally wrong because it replaces the "natural" conjugal union between husband and wife and often results in destruction of embryos.

This calls for a Catholic joke, yes - but what kind of Catholic joke?

Comments

[Clean Hands]

I guess I don't see the problem here. Teacher entered into a contract with an organization with certain well-known positions. She does something that runs counter to those positions. They opt to terminate the contract.

What's the problem, again?

[Clean Hands]

As for your obligatory Catholic joke, I suppose that they wouldn't have minded so much if she gave birth to all of the embryos...

[Bee]

Because, you know, every sperm is sacred.

[Marcvs]

From the article, it appears that she is arguing that they really fired her because she was pregnant, not because she used in vitro fertilization. That would be a whole different ball of wax.

BTW, how the hell did they find out? Doesn't seem like the most pleasant watercooler conversation.

[St. George]

The school IS the joke!

[brian423]

Maybe it's the one about the pope and Raquel Welch that they alluded to on Seinfeld. "No, I said, 'Hand me the buoys!'"

[Larry A]

After asking for some time off in September 2004 to complete the procedure, the lifelong Catholic gave her boss an update about a month later: She was pregnant.

So she goes into the boss's office and says, "We're going to have a child by IVF. I need some time off to do it."

The boss apparently says, "Okay."

A month later she returns and says, "Well, the IVF worked."

So the boss says, "Congratulations. But IVF is a sin, so you're fired."

The obvious question is, Why the heck didn't the boss say something when she asked for the time off? Like, "The church thinks IVF is a sin and if you go through it I'll have to fire you."

[Jim Nelson]

Great. What Hit and Run really needed was another comment thread in which it's atheist dickhead posters get to show us yet again what dickhead atheists they are.

[Isaac Bartram]

Exactly which commenter has shown he or she is an atheist?

I ask that because I want an answer, even though I risk feeding a troll.

[Timothy]

I dunno, Akira and I are both pretty up-front with our nonbelieving. Although I like to think that I'm not particularly dickheaded about it.

[ChicagoTom]

Great. What Hit and Run really needed was another comment thread in which it's atheist dickhead posters get to show us yet again what dickhead atheists they are.

But instead we got a thread that shows us, in no uncertain terms, what a dickhead Jim Nelson is.

Well played!

[Jim Nelson]

No one on this thread yet, but just wait. Check any previous Hit and Run thread that has anything remotely to do with religion to get an idea for who the usual suspects are.

And it's not being an atheist that's the problem; it's being a *dickhead* atheist who thinks that anyone gives a shit that he thinks he is much too smart for the fairy tales and won't be put under the boot of the church.

[joshua corning]

yeah akira is a dick and i am an atheist.

The church can fire whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

Plus you don't have to work there if you don't want to....plus you can lie about how you got pregnant.

[highnumber]

Can't a guy hate the Catholic church without being a dickhead atheist?
Signed,
former Catholic
current Unitarian Universalist

[JK]

Fucking is far too risky for prime livestock but, according to Catholicism, it's still an acceptable risk for people. I just might start going to church again.

[Jim Nelson]

Isaac,

A recent example.

In this thread, you will see some of the more prominent dickheads equating all belief with fairy tales. For example: "Religions are all based on a belief that their fairy tales are better than yours."

[joshua corning]

I have also never heard that the catholic church is against invitro furtilization...it could very well be a bullshit ploy by her lawyer and in fact she got fired for stealing post-it notes.

[Isaac Bartram]

I dunno it seems to me that Protestants can get pretty dickheaded when there's a chance to ridicule Catholics. And there's a lot more of them.

[Jim Nelson]

highnumber,

Can't a guy hate the Catholic church without being a dickhead atheist?

Sure, and as I said, being an atheist doesn't automatically equate to being a dickhead. It's just that, atheists seem to have more than their share.

Isaac,

I dunno it seems to me that Protestants can get pretty dickheaded when there's a chance to ridicule Catholics.

Too true.

[joe]

joshua, the Church declared IVF a sin decades ago.

It's the discarding of the numerous excess fertilized embryos. That's exactly like a trainload of Hungarian Jews being gassed, you see. Exactly.

[Isaac Bartram]

Boy, Jim, it must be tough for you to belong to such a persecuted, downtrodden, marginalized group.

Oh, the oppression.

Give me a fucking break.

[highnumber]

UUs believe that all the fairy tales, I mean religions have some value.

[joshua corning]

if the freedoms of american democracy has proven anything is that one does not need religion as an excuse to ridicule his fellow man.

[Jim Nelson]

Isaac,

Who said anything about persecution?

[Ken Shultz]

I don't see the problem either. If it was left out of the contract or something, I suppose...

...but don't let that spoil the fun! ...if making fun of religious people is what you consider fun.

I have come across people who seem to think that ridiculing religious people is somehow appealing. ...to American voters, that is. I never really followed that argument, but hey, who says everything we do has to make sense?

[JK]

Religions are all based on a belief that their fairy tales are better than yours.

Jimbo,

Look up the word 'epistomology'.

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

David Weigel,

Something about this doesn't compute.

It seems well in line with Catholic thinking.

Have you read the Pope's latest statement on ?love??

[highnumber]

There are a lot of atheists with attitude problems.
There are a lot of Christians with attitude problems.
I have even heard of Muslims and Jews with attitude problems.

[Isaac Bartram]

Far be it from me to pass up a chance to be a dickhead, [ 😉 ] but for the record, from the facts presented the school is well within its rights.

The church's belief may be based on a load of nonsense but nonbelievers are free to stay away.

[highnumber]

There are a lot of atheists with attitude problems.
There are a lot of Christians with attitude problems.
I have even heard of Muslims and Jews with attitude problems.

[joshua corning]

joshua, the Church declared IVF a sin decades ago.

It's the discarding of the numerous excess fertilized embryos. That's exactly like a trainload of Hungarian Jews being gassed, you see. Exactly.

hmm it must have not been that big of sin. I went to catholic grade school and was even an alterboy and I never even heard of it.

anyway joe as far fetched as every embreo being a human being sounds it sort of looses its crazyness when such ideas as beliefe in a soul comes into the argument...certianly the idea isn't as stupid as robing paul to pay peter and somehow this equals justice...i mean we have 100 million people dead as proof to this ideas stupidity...there is very little proof as to the non-existance of a soul.

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

joshua corning,

I have also never heard that the catholic church is against invitro furtilization.

Their position has been clear on the subject for quite some time. It is not hard to see why given the sort of argument made here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#III

[Isaac Bartram]

I hate to pass up a chance to be a dickhead here, but I have to take the school district's side on this one.

Rules are rules, no matter how ridiculous outsiders might hink they are.

[Akira MacKenzie]

I know what people are thinking, but I didn't say a gorram thing. In fact, I've been trying to keep quiet about religion lately so I don't end up giving myself a coronary by the time I'm 32.

I will say this: Perhaps there would be fewer "dickhead atheists" if the knuckle-dragging followers (note the word "FOLLOWERS") of organized religion would get with the 21st century and refrain from doing stupid, bigoted things like fire teachers for their reproductive choices. Stories like this only lend credence to the proposition that we atheists actually are "too smart for the fairy tales..."

Of course, I'm not holding my breath for this. There's is still a lot of money and power to be gained by milking the fears of the ignorant and deluded. I doubt the con-men commonly called priests, rabbis, ministers, imans, etc or the dupes who believe the shit they shovel will let a little something like reason get stop them. I mean, it hasn't for several thousand years, why should it now?

There! Now Jim's rant is justified and I've probably shaved a few months off my life expectancy. Happy?

[Akira MacKenzie]

Edit: I doubt the con-men we commonly call "priests," "rabbis," "ministers," "imans," etc or the dupes who believe the shit the former shovels will let a little something like reason stop them.

[highnumber]

Ignoring the very interesting subtopic of atheists vs Christians and who are bigger dickheads,
was the woman supposed to be familiar with every teaching of the church? Who knows what arcane teachings the church could bring up to fire someone? She told her supervisor what she was doing, he gave her the time off to get it done, and she claims that other employees did not get fired for the same "offense." It sounds like selective enforcement of the rules. It is not fair, and possibly illegal under our current employment laws.

[highnumber]

Strike "possibly" from that last sentence.

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

joshua corning,

hmm it must have not been that big of sin. I went to catholic grade school and was even an alterboy and I never even heard of it.

I have the feeling that many Catholics politely ignore the Holy See's position on the matter.

[Shane]

The fairy tale comment came from a thread involving a story about a person that was considered insane and unstable because he believed in the existence of a trio of talking dwarves. In contrast, many people consider it perfectly normal to believe in the existence of a person born to a virgin mother that counts among his many talents the ability to walk around and talk to people several days after his death. One man's insanity is another man's religion.

[excatholic]

She should not have termed it "IVF". She should have told her boss that she needed time to get pregnant without an intercourse - which cannot be a sin, since the Virgin Mary conceived the same way.

Instead of mentioning the IVF clinic she should have hinted at the holy ghost. I do not think he would mind as long as he does not have to pay alimony.

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

excatholic,

They'd probably consider that blasphemy.

[Akira MacKenzie]

...was the woman supposed to be familiar with every teaching of the church? Who knows what arcane teachings the church could bring up to fire someone?

That's actually a good point. To use a more secular analogy there's the old chestnut about how "Ignorance of the law is no excuse!" However, when you think about it, it actually is since how is one supposed to act in accordance to a law that they don't know anything about.

That, and we have to bear in mind the pick-n-choice regard toward church teachings held by many American Catholics. I assume that this woman worked in a somewhat conservative diocese, but if the local church was more "progressive" then there was a good chance that it would have gone unremarked (much to the chagrin of arch-Catholics like my father who still rants about how wussy the Milwaukee arch-diocese was under "that liberal fag" Rembert Weakland).

[highnumber]

Phileleutherus Lipsiensus,
I'll back you up on this:
I was raised Catholic, and as a teenage punk-rocker the only thing that kept me going to church, rather than standing outside mooning people and throwing rocks, was that Catholics as a group are fantastic at believing the teachings they wish to and ignoring the ones they don't like. Every Catholic I have ever known ignored some teachings of the church. Either they used birth control or they ate meat on Fridays during Lent or they took communion after skipping confession. (American?) Catholics are very selective in their beliefs.

[Daniel]

there is very little proof as to the non-existance of a soul.

There is also very little proof as to the non-existance of invisible gnomes.

[highnumber]

Uh, Akira, I'll back you up, too. (I was typing while you posted, but you made a similar point.)

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

Daniel,

Heh.

[jtuf]

I don't know what the current US law says, but I agree with Issac. Freedom of association lets a church hire and fire people for any reason. I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, which makes my chances of becoming a priest very slim. That's OK with me. The same freedom means I can refuse to go to services without anyone banging on my door.

[Jeff P]

Man, y'all went this long without breaking into "Every Sperm is Sacred."

Slackers, all of ya'...

[mo $$]

Obviously this was just a convenient excuse to fire the woman. If they liked what she was doing on the job then a slap on the wrist and a couple of hail mary's would have been administered. Besides, shouldn't we be arguing that you should just be able to fire someone without justification?? Sorry, I already used up all of my compassion today...

[highnumber]

Jeff P,
3rd post. Courtesy of Bee

[jtuf]

On the topic of religion and fary tales. I checked the dictionary and religion can mean "(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural" or "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" among other things. That second definition covers a few athiest dictatorships. There are also lots of good athiest. The way I see it, a person's actions are a better indicator of his quality than are his official beliefs.

[highnumber]

Sure, they should be able to fire someone without justification, but they can't under the current laws. Well, they sort of can in an employment-at-will state, but they did give a justification for the firing. They claimed that she violated her contract by violating Catholic doctrine.

[El Christador]

She clearly was not a very good Catholic anyway. The article quotes her as saying, "I want [my children and others born by IVF] to know that just because their parents had them through in vitro fertilization, that we are not evil sinners".

She ought to be sending the message that the children themselves, plus their parents, are all evil sinners, IVF or no.

Actually, maybe that's what she means: 'We want the kids to know that evil-sinnerness is independent of IVF use'.

[Jeff P]

Highnumber, you've restored my faith.

[highnumber]

Nuts!

[highnumber]

Faith sucks!
Reason rules!

[Mike Heinz]

Joshua said: hmm it must have not been that big of sin. I went to catholic grade school and was even an alterboy and I never even heard of it.

Joshua, I haven't been a practicing Catholic in 20 years, but I've known at least that long that the Church was against IVF.

I suspect you weren't paying attention in class that day.

[Stevo Darkly]

Great. What Hit and Run really needed was another comment thread in which it's atheist dickhead posters get to show us yet again what dickhead atheists they are.

Jim, Jim -- I pretty much know where you're coming from, but the most effective way of forestalling a firestorm was probably not to throw kerosene upon smoldering embers.

(On the bright side, there's a better than 50% chance that this thread will mutate into a completely different topic -- like abortion, or whether unavailablity of absolute disproof = proof!)

PS: Contra to a remark made above, Akira is not a dick.

[JK]

They claimed that she violated her contract by violating Catholic doctrine.

So why does the Catholic Church even bother with the Sacrament of Confession? I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that there might be some problems with this so-called contract.

[Calf Lick]

How many Catholics does it take to procreate in a light bulb?

[Straight Man]

I dunno. How many?

[Now Angry Impatient Man]

TELL ME!

[Seamus]

I have also never heard that the catholic church is against invitro furtilization.

hmm it must have not been that big of sin. I went to catholic grade school and was even an alterboy and I never even heard of it.

You should check out Domum vitae, issued nearly 20 years ago by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

The fact that you may have gotten bad catechesis doesn't mean that Church doctrine isn't, in fact, Church doctrine; it just means that the Church in this country does a lousy job of teaching its doctrine. Hell, they didn't even teach you how to spell "altar boy."

[Now Angry Impatient Man]

4?

[Now Angry Impatient Man]

You sonofabitch! I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna go Guantanamo on your sorry ass if you don't tell me.
No, wait. I'm sorry. Please tell me. I'll be your best friend?

[Now Angry Impatient Man]

WWWWHHHHHHHYYYYYYY WWWWWHHHHYYYYYY WWWWWWHHHHHHHYYYYYY oh, WWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHYYYYYYY won't you tell me?

[The Real Bill]

A few years ago, I had a discussion with some of the more religious members of my family on the topic of IVF. I convinced them that to be consistent, pro-lifers must be anti-IVF. One family member decided to adopt instead of using IVF due to the conversation. Too bad I can't be as convincing when arguing for libertarianism!

[Curious Billy]

Got a question. In natural sex for procreation, a man shoot something like 20 million of sperm in order to get one egg (that is an egg that is not naturally aborted every month which is the reason for periods) and the rest died. Also, a female fetus have millions of eggs of which something like 70% died BEFORE her birth. So, does that make God a dickhead and a murderer because He broke His church's teachings?

[Akira MacKenzie]

I don't know what the current US law says, but I agree with Issac. Freedom of association lets a church hire and fire people for any reason.

In a perfect universe, I'd 100% agree with you, but there's a long sad history of American using "freedom of association" as a means to make life miserable for various unpopular groups (blacks, gays, Latinos, Jews, atheists, etc.). It's one thing to bar someone from the local country club, but we're talking about someones job; their means to food, clothing, shelter, health care, miniature wargaming figures, and other life necessities. Speaking as someone who's been forced to bounce from job-to-job, getting a new job isn't as easy or convenient as some might think.

In a libertarian world, discrimination might be "legal," but I hardly think it's moral.

[highnumber]

Uh-oh. Libertarianism clashing with honest-to-goodness morals. Unfortunately, this does happen from time to time. I have a problem with some friends who don't understand "that just because you can, doesn't mean you should." With freedom comes responsibility. Isn't one of the tenets of libertarianism that man is a moral creature who will do the right thing usually when he is given the choice?

[andy]

Off topic, but Akira,

For having such a stereotypically hard-core right-wing dad (from what you've told us) who probably is still mad at the "Japs" for WW2, how in hell do you have a Nipponian name?

Just curious. Thank you in advance for your response.

[Akira MacKenzie]

So, does that make God a dickhead and a murderer because He broke His church's teachings?

Well, we mere mortals can't possibly understand God's grand plan and design, but since God is omnibenevolent and infaliable, we can be sure He's doing the right thing.

Of course, if we can't understand God's mind, then how in the Hell are we supposed to know God is actually doing the right thing?

[Stevo Darkly]

Akira also gets the "Post #69" Award.

andy -- you know, "Akira" might not be his real name.

[Stevo Darkly]

Got a question. In natural sex for procreation, a man shoot something like 20 million of sperm in order to get one egg (that is an egg that is not naturally aborted every month which is the reason for periods) and the rest died. Also, a female fetus have millions of eggs of which something like 70% died BEFORE her birth. So, does that make God a dickhead and a murderer because He broke His church's teachings?

Just like some people can't tell the difference between a Monty Python parody and actual, official Catholic church teachings, it looks like some people can't tell the difference between a spermatozoa (or an ovum) and an actual embryo.

[Stevo Darkly]

By the way, just to be fair, the Spanish Inquisition didn't actually go around torturing people with comfy chairs and soft cushions, either. I hope nobody was confused about that too.

[Stevo Darkly]

How many Catholics does it take to procreate in a light bulb?

One man and one woman, dammit. And for life.

[Jim Walsh]

A priest, a rabbi and Bill Donahoe walk into a bar.

The bartender says, "what is this, a joke?"

Donahoe says, "The rabbi put you up to that, didn't he?"

I know, I know, give me a break, I'm tired...

[kebko]

"Something about this doesn't compute."

I assumed this was a comment on the fact that many fertilized eggs die from natural conjugal unions, so that the church should be against those too. Am I the only one that got it? Or am I wrong?

[Akira MacKenzie]

For having such a stereotypically hard-core right-wing dad (from what you've told us) who probably is still mad at the "Japs" for WW2, how in hell do you have a Nipponian name?

He is...and he wasn't even born until 1948.

Next, "Akira MacKenzie" is just my online handle. Akira was a player character I created for a friend's Traveller campaign; an Anglo-Nipponese, Heinleinesque asteroid prospector with a Texas drawl and a penchant for tie-dye shirts, kilts (not recommended in zero-g environs, but he wasn't a prude), cowboy boots, and samurai swords. A walking culture clash if ever there was one. I enjoyed playing him so much, I decided to use his name as my internet persona.

Hey, it was either that or Yaralakla; my reformed, female Vargr pirate who was in search for her long lost son.

[Now Disappointed With the Punc]

That's not funny.

[jtuf]

Akira & highnumbers

You have a good point. Given the facts in the article, it looks like the school was with in their rights but did the morally wrong thing. The best policy is to let teacher do what ever they want during their own time as long as they don't talk about it in class.

[Akira MacKenzie]

I guess you had to be there, or be familar with the antics of Bill "Damn Liberal Jews!" Donahue.

[Stevo Darkly]

How many Catholics does it take to procreate in a light bulb?

None. Catholics use candles!

(Rimshot sound.)

Thank you! I'll be here all week. Except that on the seventh day, I rest. (Hit sound link again.)

Enjoy the fried fish. Remember to tithe.

[joshua corning]

In a libertarian world, discrimination might be "legal," but I hardly think it's moral.

umm yeah but i can name about a million things i think are imoral but are legal and a million more that are illegal but are moral.

The reality is that the atheist left (as opposed to atheiests who are not leftists) thinks it is perfectly fine for the state to determine what is illigal discrimination and what isn't.

I fail to see how this is any different then religious zeolets trying to outlaw the pill.

my suggestion as libertarian atheist to all the lefty athiests is that they listen to the profound moral teaching of Jesus Christ...specificly "do on to other that you would have done on to you"

the libertarian atheist translation being:

stay out of my fucking buissness and i will stay out of your fucking buissness.

[Brian24]

I'm really late, but had to mention in regards to this:

being an atheist doesn't automatically equate to being a dickhead. It's just that, atheists seem to have more than their share.

I'd say that it's religious people who have more than their share, though of course just being religious doesn't automatically equate to being a dickhead either.

[Warren]

my suggestion as libertarian atheist to all the lefty atheists is that they listen to the profound moral teaching of Jesus Christ...specifically "do on to other that you would have done on to you"

hahahaha You Christians, you live in such a small world. The Golden Rule had been around for at least 500 years, Christ was just ginning up a stump-speech with a few old chestnuts.

[mk]

Warren,

Do you mean 5000 years?

[GreginOz]

So, there were two Aussie mates that rocked up to the Vatican Square with their Eski (beer cooler), half pissed (drunk). Kev and Bazza were heard to make loud, disparaging comments to the crowd "...the Pope wears a dddrreeessss, the Pope wears a ...". On and on they went, crackin' tinnies (opening beer cans), hawkin' n scatchin'.
The Pope got wind of the disturbance whilst Bazza staggered off to a fountain to 'shake the snake' and stormed up to Kev. Now Bazza couldn't hear what was said but he observed the Pope BLESSING his mate and ,shaking the snake, he staggered back. "Strewth mate, ya got blessed!". Kev shook his 'ead glumly and said "Nah. He pointed at me, pointed at the Eski, pointed at you 'n pointed at the exit and said you, your Eski and your stupid mate PISS OFF!"

[Thomas Paine's Goiter]

The fairy tale comment came from a thread involving a story about a person that was considered insane and unstable because he believed in the existence of a trio of talking dwarves.

AHEM! A HOLY TRINTY of talking dwarves!

Armand is not pleased with you!

[Thomas Paine's Goiter]

There is also very little proof as to the non-existance of invisible gnomes.

DWARVES!

May Luis have mercy on your non-existant soul.

[uncle sam]

Some people are dickheads, others are not.
Unless you do a statistical study, all we have are anecdotes.
Maybe you can get a grant....

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

joshua corning,

...specificly "do on to other that you would have done on to you"

Man, Jesus was kinky! 🙂

[Phileleutherus Lipsiensus]

Anyway, it is because of foolish attitudes and actions like this that I cannot understand why normally rational people remain a member of such a body.

[Dervin]

IVF is just another form of Plastic Surgery

[Greg]

In a libertarian world, discrimination might be "legal," but I hardly think it's moral.

umm yeah but i can name about a million things i think are imoral but are legal and a million more that are illegal but are moral.

Ok, lets not just dismiss this criticism offhand as some minor quirk, as we all know this is a serious problem with libertarian philosophy. So, its ok with you if a landlord tosses someone out on their can for taking part in an interracial relationship? Its his building, after all. Who are we to interfere with his rights to association?

[Johnny]

Off topic, but on.

I went to an evagelical fundimentalist christian gradeschool.

They taught that the Pope was a (a not "the") anti-christ. Really, and they believed it.

That's why I support school vouchers. The gradeschool I went to would definitely recieve vouchers if they were truly offered.

I think America could use more education of that type.

[Jersey McJones]

Johhny, you sick loony, did it ever occur to you that the Catholics would get that money too, and that your "Christian" school was a steaming pile of Christian Taliban idiot, ignorant scum?

JMJ

[Seamus]

Got a question. In natural sex for procreation, a man shoot something like 20 million of sperm in order to get one egg (that is an egg that is not naturally aborted every month which is the reason for periods) and the rest died. Also, a female fetus have millions of eggs of which something like 70% died BEFORE her birth. So, does that make God a dickhead and a murderer because He broke His church's teachings?

I've got an even better question: In the course of life, nature (i.e., God) causes a full *100%* of all human beings to die, if they aren't killed by accident or misadventure first. Doesn't that make God even more of a mass murderer than does the death of gametes (or even of the 50+% of zygotes that reportedly die before coming to term)?

[Mark]

Just to let you all know, it is a BEAUTIFUL day in London. The first day of summer.

I went outside to look at the ladies sunbathing, one of whom was doing so in a bra i.e sweet.

Now is not the time for me to be worrying about Catholicism.

[Randolph Carter]

Seamus, it was my understanding that the church teaches that it's sin that makes us die, not God.

Also, if I were a believing christian, I would be super-pissed all the time at goddamn Adam and Eve. Assholes! If you read the part in genesis that describes the results of the apple-eating business - it's like everything I hate, they made happen.

[Seamus]

Given the facts in the article, it looks like the school was with in their rights but did the morally wrong thing.

So it's "morally wrong" for schools to punish people for doing what they believe to be the morally wrong thing? If this woman, on her own time, was an active supporter of the Ku Klux Klan but never brought it up in class, it would have been wrong for the school to fire her? Do you seriously believe it would be wrong for the Humane Society to fire an employee who, on her own time, went deer hunting?

It's one thing to bar someone from the local country club, but we're talking about someones job; their means to food, clothing, shelter, health care, miniature wargaming figures, and other life necessities.

Preventing this woman from serving as a role model in a Catholic school is hardly barring her from "food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc. (or even from miniature wargaming figures). Or maybe I didn't realize that she was living in one of those many towns where being fired from a Catholic school puts you on an automatic blacklist that is scrupulously honored by all local employers, including the public schools, the library, even the Starbucks and McDonald's.

[Warren]

If you read the part in genesis that describes the results of the apple-eating business - it's like everything I hate, they made happen.

What, you mean like sex?

[Seamus]

Seamus, it was my understanding that the church teaches that it's sin that makes us die, not God.

Well, it's certainly sin that makes us die when autoerotic asphyxiation goes horribly awry.

But if it isn't God that causes the unbaptised newborn preemie (afflicted with original sin but not guilty of actual sin) to die, then you can't pin the deaths of fertilized zygotes on him, either. (And, as someone else pointed out, the deaths of gametes don't even come into the picture, since they are no more human beings than are my epidural cells--perhaps less so, since my epidural cells can theoretically be cloned into new humans.)

[Marcvs]

The Church is against IVF because it destroys embryos. Sperm and unfertilized eggs don't count.

As to the fact that millions of embryos die every year naturally is different from humans actively causing their death through IVF. If they die naturally, it was "God's will." In IVF, it's a "person's will," which is the distinction.

I didn't say I agree with all of this, just that that is the Church's stance.

[Johnny]

Jersey,

I am perfectly aware of all of that. Which is why I tell everyone about it. You don't think the Evangelicals want anyone knowing their schools, who will be getting vouchers, are very similar to the schools that teach Jihad.

Of course they were right about the Pope being an anti-christ. But still...

😉

And just as this firing is prefectly legal, so is it that the church I was raised it was also perfectly legal in their belief that the Pope was an anti-christ. Although I mock both, I support both freedoms. As long as I am free to mock them both.

😉

It is important that the Pope provided that Italian Moose guy, you know, the one that loved Hitler so much, with his own priest during WWII, so that each evil deed he did could be forgiven directly by a priest each day.

Taliban smaliban, They are all Jihadic religons of "The Book". Personally, I can't tell 'em apart.

[Randolph Carter]

Warren,
Not so much the sex, but the "you will have to till the field with the sweat of your brow" and "childbirth will suck" (a friend of mine just gave birth, she can confirm this) and "the animals will not be friendly and start eating each other" stuff. Adam and Eve were just a walking shitshow. I'm shocked they were the best God could do.

[Jersey McJones]

Johnny - why do you want vouchers then? I completely miss the connection here. If you, like I, think all relgion is bad, and you, like I, agree that these particular sects are teaching lunacy (you're joking about the Pope, right?), then why would you want to send tax dollars their way?

JMJ

[Hellbound Alleee]

No, the Christian Dickhead has to WAIT for an atheist dickhead to post about it. Bit maybe it's just easier to post what the dickhead expects his enemy to say, rather than to find out that no atheist dickhead posted what the christian dickhead wanted him to say. That way, the christian dickhead can complain right away.

[cgee]

Mike - any candid photos? (he asked knowingly)

[P Brooks]

"Although I mock both, I support both freedoms. As long as I am free to mock them both."

Hear, hear. I once had a "discussion" with a (male) individual who was wearing a skirt; not a kilt, but a skirt. He was attempting to explain to me that I was an evil, bigoted bastard who was trying to prevent him from wearing skirts if he so deired. I, on the other hand was trying to make it clear to him that I had no interest in preventing him from wearing skirts (or lacy panties and garter belts, for that matter); I merely wanted him to be aware that, as it was his right to wear skirts, it was also my right to laugh at him for it.

As for the "atheist dickhead" argument- if you want to tell me that I am Hell-bound, you may; just don't pretend that I have no right to think that you're an idiot.

I'm not really an atheist- I'm more of a half-assed buddhist wannabe. But I still think yer an eejit.

[kwais]

JMJ,
One reason I would be in favor of vouchers is because I believe that if we are to pay for school with tax dollars, at least we wont be discriminating beliefs or religions with those tax dollars. It will be up to the parents.

Vouchers would be preferable to what we have now.

Anyone know when we started to pay for school with tax dollars in this country?

[Jim Nelson]

Stevo,

Jim, Jim -- I pretty much know where you're coming from, but the most effective way of forestalling a firestorm was probably not to throw kerosene upon smoldering embers.

You're right, and I'm actually sorry for what I posted. It's just that, based on what I've often seen on Hit and Run (and many other places on the internet), I was anticipating being subjected to another series of self-congratulatory "I'm an atheist free-thinker who doesn't need your religious crutch to stand on" posts, and lashed out. It gets a bit tiresome after a while.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

What's the problem, again?
Nuttin', really. When one is employed in the business of distributing weird ideas, one is liable to get fired for weird reasons.