Two Important Stories Change

Zacarias Moussaoui now wants to withdraw his guilty plea, says he made up the stuff about being involved in 9/11.

Nicole Kidman says her divorce came as a shock, claims she still loves Tom.

Comments

[John]

"Zacarias Moussaoui now wants to withdraw his guilty plea, says he made up the stuff about being involved in 9/11."

Any bets on the over and under before the first "Free Moussaoui" placecard, t-shirt, ect appears at an anti-war rally? I said it the day they didn't give him the death penalty, just wait and give it some time, he will be a hero giving speeches at Yale before we know it.

[Pro Libertate]

Moussaoui and Kidman? No, wait. Moussaoui and Cruise. That would explain a few things. Look for a Moussaoui announcement that he's converted to Scientology.

Love that Nicole Kidman. What a babe.

[I'm going to wash my keyboard]

Kidman has a disturbing Michael-Jackson thing going on in the linked-to picture.

[Yogi]

Who is reporting this Moussaoui stuff? If its not online, can it be true? ;>

[Pro Libertate]

Just a bad photo, I'm sure. Though she is nearly forty, so they may be washing out her one wrinkle. People are ridiculous about aging even the slightest bit anymore.

[Pro Libertate]

Just a bad photo, I'm sure. Though she is nearly forty, so they may be washing out her one wrinkle. People are ridiculous about aging even the slightest bit anymore.

[mediageek]

Any bets on the over and under before the first "Free Moussaoui" placecard, t-shirt, ect appears at an anti-war rally?

John, it's etc. not ect. Etc., short for etcetera.

I thought you were supposed to be some hotshot who works for a DA somewhere or something.

/serious pet peeve

[Tin Hat]

Of course he was not involved. 9-11 was carried out by the government or groups well connected and influential. The "terrorists" had nothing to do with it.

[John]

Sorry mediageek,

I maybe a hot shot at something (certainly a matter of opinion) but typing is not one of them.

[moonbiter]

Nice straw man you built there, John.

[Evan]

"Kidman has a disturbing Michael-Jackson thing going on in the linked-to picture."

Micheal Jackson thing? Not bloody likely. More like a Dianne West crossed with Annie Lennox "Bare" thing going on. Creeeeeepy!

[mediageek]

John, just about the tenth time I've seen it done today at various websites, and it's always grated on me.

I now return the thread to the topic at hand.

[John]

Moonbiter,

Time will tell. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that a free Moussaoui placecard shows up at an anti-war rally at some point in next year. Saying Mousoui is innocent is no more rediculous than saying Mumia or Tookie were innocent. Why not Moussaoui?

[Pro Libertate]

Evan,

Dear Jesus. What the heck happened to Annie Lennox? She used to be but-for-the-hair attractive. Yikes.

[Paul W]

Saying that "a placecard" (sic, my emphasis) will show up at a demonstration is hardly much of an argument of mass feelings of sympathy. There is a placard in my neighborhood of a guy saying that aliens are controlling his brainwaves with microwave radiation with the help of the CIA, I'd hardly call that a mass movement.

How many "Free Richard Reid" signs have you seen?

[John]

Pro Liberate,

Anne Lennox was even attractive with the hair when she had the short blond job going circa the "Would I Lie To You" video. She always had a nice body, good skin and a very sexy personality. But alas you are right, she is downright scary these days.

[Mark B.]

There may well be a "Free Moussaoui" placard at an anti-war demonstration at some point - so what? There are goofballs who want to free (or marry) Charles Manson as well - we've got lots of kooks running around this great nation of ours. Those placards will mean as much as any other fringe opinion, namely nothing.

[Isaac Bartram]

Moussaoui said he testified March 27 he was supposed to hijack a fifth plane on Sept. 11, 2001, and fly it into the White House "even though I knew that was a complete fabrication."

I don't think anybody ever believed that the fifth plane story was anything but a complete fabrication.

That's probably what saved him from a death sentence.

[John]

Mumia Abu Jamal gives commencement speeches from Prison. Stanley Williams had admirers from all over the left. The former roving ambassador to for the Taliban was admitted to Yale and but for a fawning NYT piece would still be there. If the fringe means so little, why do so many people and institutions embrace it? I just think that if Moussaoui plays his cards right he can be the next Mumia.

[David]

Wow, John! You really buy into the left as "Treasonous, terrorist sympathizers who want to destroy America" bit, don't you?

[David]

As far as Moussaoui goes, of course he wants to change his plea. He was probably counting on being martyred but got the life sentence instead. You don't get 72 virgins in heaven for life in prison.

[Jim Henley]

The whole "What a few people with no power SAY (some protestors somewhere) is more important than what a few people with a whole lot of power (the, you know, government) DO" thing still works great with about three in ten Americans (per the latest polls), John. So hey, stick with what you know.

[Barbar]

Nice work, John. So the only evidence you have that Moussaoui will turn into a Leftist national hero is your delusion to that effect? Nice. I guess the only reason it hasn't happened already is because he hasn't appeared much in the news yet, right? Moron.

[lunchstealer]

I think you left out the meat part of your post, Tim. What important stories have changed?

[John]

Do you guys that Mumia gives commencement speeches and that Stanley Williams had a lot of support in this country or that the Taliban is at Yale right now and a lot of people would like to keep him there? Those are facts. Make of them what you like. All I am saying is that it is not unreasonable to believe that the same people who embraced the likes of Williams, Jamaal and the Taliban ambassador will, if Moussaoui is smart embrace him as well. Why is that such an unreasonable thing to say?

[Isaac Bartram]

Evan,

Man, after seeing that Annie Lennox "Bare" thing I am scarred for life.

I will never, ever open another link at H&R as long as I live.

[Isaac Bartram]

Evan,

Man, after seeing that Annie Lennox "Bare" thing I am scarred for life.

I will never, ever open another link at H&R as long as I live.

[mediageek]

Geeze. For once I agree with John.

[John]

Barbar,

Stanley Williams wasn't a leftist hero when he was sentenced to death in the 1980s. He was just a thug. He just had work it right and know which buttons to push and what things to say. If Moussaoui is smart he will do the same thing. It will take a while but it can happen. If the left doesn't want to be accused of these things, perhaps they should stop defending people like Williams, Jamaal and the Taliban ambassador.

[Pro Libertate]

I don't see any impending upsurge of support for Moussaoui. There are plenty of people who don't think he should be executed--he's clearly a loon who probably was recognized as such by al Qaeda and was kept away from any really juicy information, after all--but I don't think there are a lot of people who want to jump on any Free-Moussaoui bandwagons.

I get annoyed with the Free Mumia et al. crowd, too, but they aren't exactly succeeding, either. Whether some people support Moussaoui or not, the vast majority appear to be in agreement--the guy is going to rot in prison, which is what he apparently deserves (I'm only hedging because I didn't follow his initial trial that closely). I'm not fond of people supporting guys who kill doctors who perform abortions, either. People are all-too-often willing to turn a blind eye to evil because someone represents some cause du jour to them.

[Isaac Bartram]

Evan,

Man, after seeing that Annie Lennox "Bare" thing I am scarred for life.

I will never, ever open another link at H&R as long as I live.

[Pro Libertate]

Free Annie Lennox!

[The Real Bill]

I don't agree with John, but you guys border on defending people who think that communism is great, just misunderstood.

Mumia and Tookie are/were evil but intelligent. This allows/allowed them to fool a lot of idiots like college students. Moussaoui seems to be an idiot and maybe insane. He ain't foolin' anybody.

Now, if Moussaoui has a "change of heart", tells sad stories about his childhood and indoctrination by terrorists, and starts acting like a poor, misunderstood soul, John just might have something.

[Joe Dokes]

I think the real issue, is Moussaoui finally figured out that his fifteen minutes were about up and wanted to keep the streak alive. While state prisons frequently tolerate interviews and other forms of speech from prison, the Feds don't, at least not for those convicted of terrorism.

For example, the lawyer of one of the original WTC bombers was arrested for sending messages to his supporters.

Moussaoui and Jury did incredible things to end this fiasco once and for all. First, Mousaoui plead guilty. In American law, if you plead guilty, as the article stated, you lose just about any right to appeal. Second, the Jury imposed the lesser of two sentences, thus any chance of an appeal of the sentence will go nowhere. In essence Moussaoui is Fu***D, Which is fine with me.

No Moussaoui will soon be trucked off to a super max federal prison in the middle of Colorado. His lawyers will file a couple of futile appeals. The prison will severely restrict his contact with the outside world, and Mr. Moussaoui will rot, in prison and at best be a mere foot note to the entire history of 9/11.

Regards

Joe

[Barbar]

Ah yes John, "the left." A broad coalition covering people from Hillary Clinton to a dumbass college kid, a broad conspiracy that keeps you sensibly voting Republican. Yawn.

[Isaac Bartram]

John,

Whether you or I like it or not Stanley Williams was quite successful at marketing himself as a reformed wrongdoer. This evoked a great deal of sympathy with the anti death penalty crowd, who campaigned for his sentence to be commuted but noone was suggesting he was innocent or that he be released.

Mumia on the other hand has convinced a considerably smaller group in the racial victimzation crowd that he is innocent.

Zacarias Moussaoui is unlikely to cut any kind of sympathetic figure. Had he been sentenced to death he might have had sympathizers from the anti-death penalty camp but not much for his beliefs*.

I fear that you have oversimplified and wrapped everything into a left wing conspiracy blanket. There's much more to it than that.

Note that when I say noone above I mean no significant number of people. As someone noted above there are nutcases that think Charles Manson should be set free.

That triple post before was the server squirrels, not me.

* remember Timothy McVeigh's execution did not evoke much sympathy.

[John]

Joe Dokes,

You make a good point about the Feds and how they treat people convicted of terrorism. That and the fact that Moussaoui seems to be the Gomar Pile of Al Quada may prevent him pulling a full Tookie and become an icon. But, life is a long time and there is no guarentee that Moussaoui will remain under those conditions forever and he still has a mother who proclaims his innocence and is lobbying the government of France to try to extradite him back to France to serve his sentence. All that seems pretty far fetched now, but in October of 2001 I would have never believed in a million years that the roving ambassador for the Taliban would be attending Yale by 2005. If there is one thing the first six years of this century has taught is "think the unthinkable".

[Barbar]

Curious, John: of all the political issues in the US today, how high do you rank the "Free Mumia" crowd?

[John]

remember Timothy McVeigh's execution did not evoke much sympathy

McVeigh was a wierdo right winger who claimed to avenge a bunch of religous nuts Janet Reno burned to death a Waco. Not exactly touching the right buttons with the left. Moussaoui can claim third world victim status. Further, he can further all of the crackpot theories about 9-11. He can also play into anti-Israeli and anti-semitism.

It would have helped had been sentenced to death. It would have given him an instant following among the anti-death penalty crowd. That said, he still has some things going for him. His mother can campaign for him. He can claim to being held in-communicado by the U.S. government. He can claim that he was forced into pleading guilty and that he is being silenced because he knows the truth about 9-11 and who was really behind it. He can claim that he is a victim of a Jewish conspiracy and of the American government. Like it or not, those things are going to play well in a lot of places and not just the middle-east, but Europe and on American college campuses and in groups like ANSWER and Moveon.org.

[MainStreamMan]

"Mumia and Tookie are/were evil but intelligent. This allows/allowed them to fool a lot of idiots like college students."

Evil?
Really?
Tookie I'll give you... when on the streets...

But Mumia? Hmmm...
What about Peltier?
Or Randy Weaver?

Evil. Sure, cuz they were active in their opposition to the government attempts to control their lives in ways they saw as unfair.

I can see how a libertarian would see that as a defining characteristic of evil...you have swayed me.

The failure to discriminate shades of difference is the hallmark of the idiot.

[Barbar]

Curious, John: of all the political issues in the US today, how high do you rank the "Free Mumia" crowd?

[Scott]

John,

Do you have any proof that everyone on the left or against the Iraq war is sympathetic to Mumia and Tookie and therefore Moussaoui will be seen as a hero, or is that just what you heard on Rush O'Hannity?

Using your logic I have determined that every pro-war, right-wing Republican that voted for Bush is an anti-Semitic racist. My evidence, there are a large number of supporters of white supremacist organizations and they tend to be overwhelmingly right wing Republicans, it is only reasonable to assume that everybody that supports Republicans will also be supportive of organizations like the KKK and outspoken white supremacists. All I am saying is it is completely reasonable to assume that since members of the right have supported people like Strom Thurmond and David Duke, that if Hitler were alive today, he would only need to push the right buttons to gain the support of right.

Why is that such an unreasonable thing to say?

[The Real Bill]

MSM,

Obviously, you have fallen for Mumia's bullshit. Therefore, you are the idiot.

Hell, anyone calling themselves MainStreamMan is obviously a fool.

[John]

Barbar,

I never said they were mainstream or that important, but they are there. There are a significant number people out there who, if Moussaoui says the right things, are disposed to believe him. Do I think he will ever get out of jail? Maybe in 20 or 30 years, he gets sent to France and then released by the French. Is that likely? No. Is that possible as in maybe 10% chance? Absolutely.

[Pro Libertate]

Mumia Abu-Jamal looks pretty friggin' guilty and isn't likely a Randy Weaver or a Cory Maye. I agree that some of these symbols are tainted (I doubt many people who have concerns about Waco are David Koresh fans, for instance), but let's acknowledge that just because someone says the Man screwed him doesn't mean that he's fighting the good fight against the government. Remember, EVERYONE in prison is innocent. Just ask them!

[John]

"Do you have any proof that everyone on the left or against the Iraq war is sympathetic to Mumia and Tookie and therefore Moussaoui will be seen as a hero, or is that just what you heard on Rush O'Hannity?"

If you would read my posts, you would know I never said anything about that or the war in Iraq. Nice straw man but that is not what I am saying. I am saying the same people who supported Williams and Jamaal and the admission of the Taliban ambassador to Yale are likely to support Moussaoui if he says the right things. I don't think that includes everyone on the left. Perhaps you do, did you think that because Rush Limbaugh told you so?

[MainStreamMan]

Bill...

failure to discriminate...

like I said...

To equate Mumia with Tookie is silly.
Tookie victimized people for profit... making money off of misery on a large scale.

I think Mumia is guilty of the crime he was convicted of... but evil?

Hmmm... seems a bit strong given the facts in the case. Mumia shot a police officer who was fighting with his younger brother. Not justified, but hardly equivalent to Tookie's running an LA crime gang.

MainStreamMan: Fool at large.

[The Real Bill]

The police officer was wounded and lying on the ground. Mumia walked up and shot him in the face. That's not evil?

[John]

If I had taken a poll on 9-12-01 and told people that we had one of the 9-11 plotters in custody and asked if the plotter would get the death penalty, I would guess 999 out of 1000 people would have said yes. Yet, Moussaoui was one of the 9-11 plotters and we did have him in custody and he is not getting the death penalty. Get used to that bald mug of his because it is going to be on T-Shirts, posters, coffee mugs, you name it. It is coming. Just give it some time. The free Moussaoui cottage industry cannot be stopped.

[Steven Crane]

Annie Lennox IS still quite attractive, especially for someone who's 52. Cut her some slack; the "Bare" cover is a work of makeup artistry.

Now, back to the actual topic: yawn!

[joe]

People, it's really not a good idea to encourage John the fake soldier.

Just point, laugh, and take his delusional rantings as a life lesson about the dangers of huffing.

[Sphynx]

Mediageek: If you want to correct other's language usage, get it right yourself. As per Merriam-Webster onlin: etc is the abbreviation for et cetera, not etcetera

[Eric II]

I think the real issue, is Moussaoui finally figured out that his fifteen minutes were about up and wanted to keep the streak alive. While state prisons frequently tolerate interviews and other forms of speech from prison, the Feds don't, at least not for those convicted of terrorism.

It seems to me that this is more about the fact that the dude was hell-bent on "martyrdom", and is just starting to come to terms with the fact that his courtroom antics didn't pay off on this front, and instead guaranteed him decades of living hell prior to any eternity in heavenly paradise. This really looks like a case where the "killing him would be letting him off easy" cliche has some value to it.

[MainStreamMan]

Real Bill,

Imagine,
You just fucked up big time.
You realize you have shot a police officer (justified, you feel, by said police officer's attack on your brother--as you perceived the situation)...

What do you do?
Something stupid, certainly.
Maybe something evil.
Heat of the moment, all that shit...

Your life will be defined by your choice from that point forward by people unable to take into account the context of the event.

You will be seen as the equivalent of a man who spends years using murder and violence as a tool to enrich himself.

Yeah.
Failure to discriminate still applies.

[Jon H]

John writes: " or that the Taliban is at Yale right now and a lot of people would like to keep him there? "

Um, so, you're concerned that one of your conservative brethren will be mistreated at a liberal bastion like Yale? Or worse, converted to the Left? You'd prefer that he attended Bob Jones, perhaps, an institution more on the Taliban's level?

I mean, what else could you be worried about? Best case, he gets exposed to modern Western thought, likes it, and gives up on radical Muslim fundamentalism. Worst case, he's subjected to a few years' unpleasant exposure to Dworkin-class feminists, much to his chagrin.

[John]

Hey Joe,

For a while I felt sorry for you, but now you are just boring me. Go ahead and send all you like to the e-mail address above. Yes, I am "fake" soldier who happens to have a us.army.mil account. You don't get one of those out of a crackerjack box. If that is not good enough for you, send me mail to that one and I will reply from my work address complete with my signature block and whatever pics you would like from my service in Iraq. You are pathetic.

[John]

"Um, so, you're concerned that one of your conservative brethren will be mistreated at a liberal bastion like Yale? Or worse, converted to the Left? You'd prefer that he attended Bob Jones, perhaps, an institution more on the Taliban's level"

Hey jackass, if he is so conservative, why does the left love him so much? Why did he get such a great profile in the NYT? The truth really hurts. You can call him whatever you like, but there is no question who is friends are in the U.S..

[Ruthless]

My response to both these lacivious story-shifters:
Tough terwilligers.

(Could we have a separate thread on John, the fake soldier, seein' as how I'm just hittin' and a runnin' here?)

[John]

On second thought Joe, don't respond to the .army.mil address. I don't think you are mature enough. Emotionally you are probably better off believing that everyone who disagrees with you is a chickenhawk who never made any sacrifices for this country. Maybe when you grow up and mature a little bit, we can introduce the truth to you a little bit at a time.

[John]

Ruthless,

After months of needless feeding the trolls by tormenting Joe, he finally went bizerk about a week ago and seized on the idea that I have lied about being in the military or ever serving in Iraq. At first I felt kind of bad for driving him over the edge. Lately, he has just become an annoyance, which prompted my response above. I apolize for highjacking the thread.

[Barbar]

Can we return to the real topic of the thread, which is Hillary Clinton's love of terrorism?

[John]

Barbar,

Who ever mentioned Hillary? Where exactly do the free Mumia, Yale Taliban crowd come from? Mars? Do you deny that there are some really nasty people out there? Or is it your opinion that no one who sits on the left or agrees with you about anything is capable of holding a loathsome view?

[John]

One other thing Barbar,

There isn't that much difference between the far right and far left. I have not doubt that the David Duke Pat Buchanan "American Conservative" crowd could very well join the Moussaoui bandwagon.

[Barbar]

Other than MainStreamMan, who in this thread is defending the Mumia or Williams or the Taliban Yale student? How many comments have you made in this thread? Who are you arguing with exactly?

[John]

I am not saying it is the people on this thread. But you do agree that those people are out there don't you? That has always been my point. Give it enough time and the same people who defend Mumia and Williams and the Taliban Yale will be defending Moussaoui.

[Barbar]

Wait, could you say that again? I'm not sure I'm following.

[jb]

John: Yes, they will. But will they matter? No. My insane commie leftist activist friends, who hold rallies that no one cares about at their elite liberal arts college, laugh at the Free Mumia people. Add another cause to the list of kooky causes no one cares about. It's simply not worth stamping out.

[dhex]

y'all can feel free to disagree, but whatever mumia actually did, his trial(s) were fucking shady as hell.

another related question is: why are fuckfaces like john negroponte walking free?

there's murder, and then there's murder, government-style, dig?

government-style is a lot more solid, career-wise.

[John]

JB and Barbar,

All I ever meant and I am sorry if I was not clear on this was that the lunatic left and probably right will eventually end up defending this animal, you watch. I did not mean to say that the entire left or right for that matter will, just the fringe.

Will they matter? Yes and no. They don't matter in that they have little or no effect on any elections. They do matter in that they seem to be in places like academia where they can have more infulence than they deserve.

[Jersey McJones]

Wow, John. So what would you be? The Sicko Middle?

JMJ

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Kidman has a disturbing Michael-Jackson thing going on in the linked-to picture.

Ewwwwwww, you're right--washing my keyboard too.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

John's strawman is no more hay than any of the speculative, degrading, and sometimes spurious claims that any given one of us tosses around about Hillary (see the Hillary/Murdoch post of this AM), GWB, OJ, Michael Jackson (see above), or other famous people we don't like.

And actually, I'll take that action. I think it's a real possibility that America's most famous 911 terrorist will ultimately have his good name rehabed in the same way Julius & Ethel Rosenberg did.

[Isaac Bartram]

John I'll repeat.

Williams' following was all about the his death sentence not his guilt. It was not a "Free Tookie" movement. It was a "Don't Execute Tookie" movement and was supported by a much bigger and largely different crowd than the "Free Mumia" movement.

Without the death penalty Tookie Williams would have been forgotten. And the same will happen to Zacarias Moussaoui.

You are generally correct about Mumia. His followers (a tiny subset of "the left") actually believe he is innocent. However again without the death penalty most of those folks would lose interest too.

The reason I brought up McVeigh was precisely that like Zacarias Moussaoui he is not the kind of sympathetic character one builds a movement around. However death penaltay opponents all opposed the execution of McVeigh but absolutely none of them thought he did not deserve to be in prison.

Again noone (probably not even Al Qaeda) wants Zacarias Moussaoui free. Some people have no problem with him not being executed.

On the other hand had he gotten the death penalty, you're correct, a large number of anti-death penalty folks would be protesting. Moussaoui's life sentence is the best thing for those who want to see him forgotten.

[James Kabala]

The September 11 attacks are too vividly remembered for a "Free Mossaoui" movement to take off. The vast majority of Americans, including the far left, still regard them with horror and contempt. In the cases of Mumia, his supporters tended to be naive and stupid college students who probably first heard the account of what happened from a pro-Mumia source and actually duped themselves into believing that his account was true. Ditto for Tookie. Such willful ignorance isn't plausible for Moussaoui, and most far-leftists (and most far-rightists, too) know better than to stay away from something so radioactive. In addition to the non-support for Reid and McVeigh mentioned above, look at the non-support for Ted Kaczynski. He is someone to whom some far-leftists might be attracted. He has leftist views, his victims were relatively few in number compared to those of McVeigh or the 9/11 highjackers, the best-known victim (David Gelernter) is a well-known conservative, and the turned-in-by-his-brother angle is a potential source of sympathy. But lefists know it would be suicidal to embrace Kaczynski's cause.
As for the frivolous half of this post, is this really a change of story? I thought Kidman had always claimed that Cruise had dumped her and that it was unexpected.

[joe]

"John" just sent me an email from "his" military email address.

Hotmail flagged it as coming from a fake address.

Ha ha.

[Lurker Kurt]

I think it's a real possibility that America's most famous 911 terrorist will ultimately have his good name rehabed in the same way Julius & Ethel Rosenberg did.

Common Sewer, are you being sarcastic?

I don't recall the Rosenberg's good name being restored.

I could be wrong but didn't the Verona transcripts confirm their guilt?

[Isaac Bartram]

Lurker Kurt at May 9, 2006 10:27 AM

And with the release of the Upton Sinclair papers only the truest of true believers proclaim the innocence of Sacco and Vanzetti any more.

[Kurt]

"Kidman has a disturbing Michael-Jackson thing going on in the linked-to picture."

Micheal Jackson thing? Not bloody likely. More like a Dianne West crossed with Annie Lennox "Bare" thing going on. Creeeeeepy!

I'd say she looks like she's about halfway to Cesar Romero.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I hate the modern left just as much as the next guy with half a brain. But even I don't think the modern left would embrace ol' Zach.

A hero has to have at least one of the following characteristics:

* Some semblance of intelligence
* Some semblance of charisma
* Some semblance of sanity

Zach just doesn't cut it.

The next time we hear from this bozo he's either hanging himself or getting shanked (when they eventually put him in Genpop).