"Si Se Puede!": The New Immigrant Song

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The AP via Houston Chron reports on yesterday's truly stunning pro-immigrant/immigration rallies in various cities, including a show of 350,000 to 500,000 folks (police estimate) in Dallas, TX:

Sunday's demonstrations come ahead of nationwide protests set for Monday, a signal that what began as a string of disparate events–attracting tens and even hundreds of thousands of people–has become more coordinated.

"We don't have a leader like Martin Luther King or Cesar Chavez, but this is now a national immigrant rights movement," said Joshua Hoyt, director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights, which has helped organize Chicago-area rallies.

Activists say the Senate's decision last week not to push a bill that would have given many illegal immigrants a chance at citizenship is neither a cause for celebration nor a lost opportunity–it's a chance to regroup….

Many groups had been preparing to rally since December, when the House passed a bill to build more walls along the U.S.-Mexico border; make criminals of people who helped undocumented immigrants; and make it a felony, rather than a civil infraction, to be in the country illegally.

More here.

For more info on what might be happening in your neck of the woods, go to this site, which lists local events being coordinated via the Center for Community Change, a generally left-leaning umbrella group that's behind the Fair Immigration Reform Movement, whose goals include upping union membership via legalizing currently undocumented workers.

The more the merrier, sez I (though if immigrants are thinking about joining the Service Employees International Union, they really oughta read Mike McMenamin's takedown of that gang here).

Certainly the idea of building a physical wall along the Mexican border–the great dream of Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.)–makes me ashamed to be an American.

Fox News' Tony Snow delivers good news about illegals–the sort of news that should make it easier for all but neo-nativists to recognize that it would be far, far easier to legalize workers rather than create a Fortress America:

Princeton University sociologist Douglas S. Massey reports that 62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security. Forbes magazine notes that Mexican illegals aren't clogging up the social-services system: only 5 percent receive food stamps or unemployment assistance; 10 percent send kids to public schools….[T]he most comprehensive survey to date of national crime data concludes, "In the small number of studies providing empirical evidence, immigrants are generally less involved in crime than similarly situated groups, despite the wealth of prominent criminological theories that provide good reasons why this should not be the case."

More here.

Reason's Brian Doherty says yes to immigration and no to the welfare state here; in our February issue, Jesse James DeConto took a long look at "America's Criminal Immigration Policy" and I suggested that "If you enjoyed your Christmas tree, thank an immigrant."

NEXT: Reach Out and Tax Someone

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  1. My prediction: the wall is approved by Congress, but after it’s about one-quarter finished, work is stopped when it is learned that nearly all of the contractors are using undocumented immigrants.

  2. How can anyone possibly estimate reliably these statistics? I find the 10% having kids in public schools to be completely incredible. I thought liberal professors at Princeton were not to be trusted?

  3. Who would you rather have in your country? –

    Someone who risks their life (sometimes pays a fortune) just to enter this country, work quietly, work hard (at jobs no one else will do), and doesn’t ask much from the system, other than a chance at success, and a better future for their children?

    or

    Someone who was born here with the “gimme gimme gimme I’m disenfranchised damnit”, entitlement, “we are owed” mentality, an expectation of an education without any effort, a protected, cushy job-for-life, “free” handouts whenever (gasp!) things might cost a little more, and a fat pension, secure in the fact that someone else will foot the bill.

  4. When you hear them shout, “Si se puede” a proper reply would be: ?No lo creo!

  5. Ironchef: The latter, so I can take his job easier 🙂

  6. I hates immigrants. But not as much as I hates those what was born here. Teh futher back thar family goes, the more I hate em.

    So go ahead and open the borers. Immigrants is the lesser of two weasels.

  7. Ironchef is right: Forget these Mexcians, DEPORT the United Auto Workers!! GM and Ford and suppliers could use illegal immigrants in assembly plants!! Fixed cost disadvantage solved!!

    Did that alarm anyone else to read Reason editor Gillespie arguing how legalizing illegals unlocks more tax revenue for our dear Federal Gov’t?? Politics makes strange bedfellows, but give me a break.

    Gillespie also seemed not to mention the studies bandied about recently that “newly arrived” workers destroy the labor market for low income Americans. Not so much “jobs Americans won’t do,” more like “it’s so much more cost effective to pay illegals under the table.” Why would a newly arrived guy from Mexico remove his own competitive advantage in the labor market by becoming legal?

  8. I saw plenty of signs that suggested these illegals believe they are entitled to much more than welfare and education. They have their eyes on a much bigger prize – California, Arizona, Texas, and parts of Colorado and Nevada.

  9. Did that alarm anyone else to read Reason editor Gillespie arguing how legalizing illegals unlocks more tax revenue for our dear Federal Gov’t??

    What? The argument presented is that there is strong evidence that immigrants are not simply a bunch of welfare leeches.

  10. Someone who was born here with the “gimme gimme gimme I’m disenfranchised damnit”, entitlement, “we are owed” mentality, an expectation of an education without any effort, a protected, cushy job-for-life, “free” handouts whenever (gasp!) things might cost a little more, and a fat pension, secure in the fact that someone else will foot the bill.

    So we should deport the Baby Boomers?

  11. MP: So 60%-odd of illegals pay taxes via the abhorrent method of witholding. Super!: Let’s f*** 100% of immigrants while feeding the fed. gov., which is growing like the plant in Little Shop of Horrors!

  12. “California, Arizona, Texas, and parts of Colorado and Nevada.”

    1) good riddance
    2) o rly?
    3) c’mon, this is right up there with “al keedar is gonna invade our shores and burkatize our ladyfolk” which is an interesting mass hallucination.
    4) yes, i know what they say on websites. they say a lot of shit. good for them. none of that changes the reality of the unliklihood of the annexing of 20% or more of the united states by mexico. and by unliklihood i mean “notfuckingliklihood”

  13. yeah, likelihood, notfuckinglikelihood, etc.

  14. Wasn’t there a thread last week showing Arizona uses more federal money than it sends?

    Let them have it! Could someone see if the receipt for the Gasden Purchase is still valid?

  15. Ironchef:

    I think P. J. O’Rourke said something similar on the issue of the Haitian boat refugee’s back in the early 90s. It’s a good sentiment, but I doubt it will pass muster to those who automatically assume criminal tendencies from anyone of a darker hue than their own.

    Oh yes, I went there. I went there because I am yet to take part in a debate about immigration (legal or illegal) where the term “wetback, “spic,” “gook,” or “towel head” wasn’t used by the opposing side at one point or another.

  16. So we should deport the Baby Boomers?

    It would be a start.

  17. sandblasted bulldog,

    Many anti-immigration advocates complain about the leech effect of immigrants (where’s wayne?). This evidence simply undercuts that argument. I hope your argument is not that immigrants should be kept out because they pay taxes and are thus contributors to federal largesse, cause true or not, it is an odd line of reasoning.

  18. The we-is-us folks tend to see the US as an island. Slam the door on foreigners and their stuff, build the wall, turn our back on the rest of the world.

    The problem, of course, is that we aren’t really that isolated. If Mexico in particular goes up in flames no wall will be high enough to keep us from getting singed.

    But is anyone on any side of the debate considering how their policies will affect Mexico and the other people-exporting countries?

    Even here on Reason?

  19. great, even the reason commentors have turned to pretending the outrage is over immigrants instead of illegal immigrants. what is this a shadow CBS sight? you want to change the rules and processes, argue that then, but don’t state that cause 50 million folks got speeding tickets last year that that is reason enough for no one to pay the fine.

  20. Why the hell did we invade Iraq when we could have invaded Mexico and fixed their government?

    Give them a good economic reason to stay there and they will. Lower border traffic would also mean less chance of terrorists hiding in the mix and crossing into the country. But y’all probably already guessed that.

  21. Did that alarm anyone else to read Reason editor Gillespie arguing how legalizing illegals unlocks more tax revenue for our dear Federal Gov’t??

    Well, in the real world, where income taxes are not going to go away – no, I am not alarmed to hear that legalizing illegals will put more dollars into the trough in order to pay for the services they use. It will also remove any incentive for businesses to hire them – which is why it won’t happen.

    Massey reports that 62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security

    I find this thoroughly unbelievable. Do they also wear signs around their necks saying “Deport Me”?

  22. Forget these Mexcians, DEPORT the United Auto Workers!!

    Having worked in and along side the UAW in various environments (Assembly, R&D, Supply), I can say without hesitation that the UAW is the biggest dead weight on the economy this side of the federal government itself. Of course I could be wrong. I’ve don’t have any experience with the Teamsters.

  23. great, even the reason commentors have turned to pretending the outrage is over immigrants instead of illegal immigrants. what is this a shadow CBS sight? you want to change the rules and processes, argue that then, but don’t state that cause 50 million folks got speeding tickets last year that that is reason enough for no one to pay the fine.

    The absurdity of immigration laws and the goal of open borders have been discussed on many prior threads. Pretending that the outrage is simply about them being “illegal” ignores that fact that the outraged parties have no interest in making them legal. “Illegal” is simply a convenient pretext for “their takin’ ur jobs” and “they should speak English” and “I hate burritos”.

  24. The illegal immigrant tax math is all wrong. Our ability to extract tax money, without providing welfare, is entirely dependent upon their illegal status. This is just a whacked way to do business.

    I wonder if participating in an Immigration protest is sufficient probable cause for an INS sweep.

  25. Yeah, I’m for open borders, immigration is good for America, yadda yadda. I still can’t help thinking these demostrations should be taking place in Mexico City. Reform your own damn country before you try to reform ours.

  26. “Why the hell did we invade Iraq when we could have invaded Mexico and fixed their government?”

    The US has tried that a couple times. It doesn’t work there either.

  27. I still wonder why so many think a heavy handed government solution is the answer to the so-called problem of illegal immigration. I suspect any intervention will result in nothing more than bigger, more invasive government, and a larger tax burden. The best thing the government can do is get the hell out of the way.

  28. Shecky, I commend you for a consistent approach. Either you advocate no workplace regulation (no payroll taxes, etc.) and a completely free market in labor or you advocate for a crackdown on hiring of illegals. What we have now, a two-tiered system with no enforcement of existing laws, is patently unfair and corrosive to our society.

  29. If we were smart, we would create:

    –a system of temporary, renewable residency permits with a simple set of questions (who are you, where are you from, where are you going, how will you support yourself) with limited access to public services,

    –a system of long-term residency permits for those who demonstrate basic English proficiency and basic knowledge of American history and civics, with increased access to public services and less oversight, and

    –citizenship at anytime for members of either the first two groups who demonstrate advanced verbal and written English proficiency, more detailed understanding of the USA, and who are willing to renounce citizenship in their native country. In other words, I would not permit dual citizenship for naturalized Americans any longer. You have to make a choice and ‘become’ American if you want to enjoy the benefits of citizenship. But those are want to work here shouldn’t be forced to do that if they are only interested in temporary residency. We still benefit either way, and we would create a more open, honest immigration policy.

    Also, I would get tough with the Mexican consulates that are actively assisting Mexicans in breaking U.S. laws.

  30. SSR,

    You must be speaking about the Mexican Revolution times. From what I can find it seems the goals were met.

    Somehow things must change over there so that Mexicans are happy being Mexicans and can have prosperity in their own country. If I am wrong about the reason they come here, I can’t help but wonder if it’s just to invade us because now I’m hearing shit like “the US stole our land” and such (c’mon who didn’t “steal” land in this hemisphere?).

    Maybe they’d even find a reason to go back under the right conditions. Just otherwise leave things alone and “let” the government do something it legitimately has the power to do and secure the borders.

  31. Has anyone pointed out how funny it would be if they hired ILLEGAL workers to build the wall? I swear, if I hear that joke made one more time…

  32. Does anyone remember that arcade game “Qix”?

  33. Ironchef:

    I think P. J. O’Rourke said something similar on the issue of the Haitian boat refugee’s back in the early 90s. It’s a good sentiment, but I doubt it will pass muster to those who automatically assume criminal tendencies from anyone of a darker hue than their own.

    “Oh yes, I went there. I went there because I am yet to take part in a debate about immigration (legal or illegal) where the term “wetback, “spic,” “gook,” or “towel head” wasn’t used by the opposing side at one point or another.

    Comment by: Akira MacKenzie at April 10, 2006 10:21 AM”

    Hmm…yes, I would automatically assume criminal tendencies on the part of those who thumb their noses at the law in order to come here. In fact, I might even assume criminal tendencies on the part of “citizens” who advocate such law -breaking. At the least, I would take a jaundiced view.

    “So we should deport the Baby Boomers?

    It would be a start.”

    I think it would be better to start with the snotty-mouthed Generation X-ers. What in hell have they ever been good for anyway, other than to squall and throw temper tantrums everytime their least little desires aren’t instantly gratified. On the other hand they do pretty much keep the fast food franchises in business. Could Jack-in-the-Crack have made it without them?

  34. Whether true or not, I have read that most of the impetus behind all of the “Aztlan” irredentist crapola comes from Latinos who are American citizens (mostly going back a generation or two), rather than actual immigrants, legal or otherwise. The immigrants obviously have a much better idea of what living in Old Mexico is really like and voted with their feet, whereas Hispanic Americans get all teary eyed over their ‘homeland,’ not unlike the German-American Bund or the Sons of Italy in times past. Though the irredentism is obviously a new twist.

  35. Many or most of those marching in our streets are citizens of foreign countries.

    Reason Magazine supports foreign citizens marching in our streets demanding that we capitulate and give them rights to which they aren’t entitled.

  36. I should have said *some* Hispanic Americans get teary eyed over their ancestral home. My wife is a Latina and is far harsher about Mexico than I am–she’s quite glad that her ancesters came over the Rio.

  37. Most of those marching in our streets are not demanding that the Southwest become part of Mexico again.

  38. I think it would be better to start with the snotty-mouthed Generation X-ers. What in hell have they ever been good for anyway, other than to squall and throw temper tantrums everytime their least little desires aren’t instantly gratified. On the other hand they do pretty much keep the fast food franchises in business. Could Jack-in-the-Crack have made it without them?

    Hardly. Gen-X’ers are anywhere from their late 20’s to early 40’s now, and the bulk of those driving the advances in technology today are Gen-X so I’d say we’ve been good for something. I don’t think many of us are working at “Jack-in-the-Crack” anymore.

  39. Shecky, I commend you for a consistent approach. Either you advocate no workplace regulation (no payroll taxes, etc.) and a completely free market in labor or you advocate for a crackdown on hiring of illegals. What we have now, a two-tiered system with no enforcement of existing laws, is patently unfair and corrosive to our society.

    No. I advocate minimizing government intervention. Which would only make my taxes higher and put the government more in my face. The recently proposed legislation was unenforcable, and I have yet to hear of any realistic government action that takes into account the market driven forces which demand foreign immigration to the US, legal or not.

    It isn’t immediately clear that a two-tiered system, which you claim exists, is terribly unfair to anyone. Few illegal immigrants are forced to take their jobs. And every consumer benefits from the labor. Nor is there much evidence it’s corrosive to society, as crime is pretty low these days, as is unemployment.

    Most of the “Aztlan” and “Reconquista” stuff seems to come from facetious Latinos commenting on the political clout of today’s growing Latino population, or nativist scare mongers trying to work up a response to the brown invaders to the south.

  40. boomer dude:

    So if I break a stupid law, any stupid law, no matter how stupid it is (and you can take you pick), or incite someone to do it, I deserve my time in jail?

    By this logic, anybody who dares suggest that smoking hemp (HEMP people, that’s the real name) isn’t that bad should spend big time in jail …

  41. Most of the “Aztlan” and “Reconquista” stuff seems to come from facetious Latinos commenting on the political clout of today’s growing Latino population, or nativist scare mongers trying to work up a response to the brown invaders to the south.

    True. Most of the Aztlan stuff seems to center on a few racist Latino cranks and a handful of nutjob academicians in the UC system. Not the stuff of revolutions. And, of course, it does make great publicity for the opposition.

  42. Reason Magazine supports foreign citizens marching in our streets demanding that we capitulate and give them rights to which they aren’t entitled.

    I take it you have no issues with Monarch’s, since their authority isderived from their lineage? Where someone is born should have no bearing on their future. Citizenship should be granted to anyone who agrees to obey US law and pay US taxes. Why does being born here grant someone special privileges over one who wishes to immigrate here?

  43. Hmm…yes, I would automatically assume criminal tendencies on the part of those who thumb their noses at the law in order to come here. In fact, I might even assume criminal tendencies on the part of “citizens” who advocate such law -breaking. At the least, I would take a jaundiced view.

    Really? What if the law is immoral? For example, would you have assumed criminal tendencies in those that thumbed their noses at the Fugitive Slave Act in the 19th century?

  44. 10 percent send kids to public schools? I’d be curious to know more about the trends. Ten years ago, twenty years ago, was it 2%, 5%?

    My mother works with the severely handicapped in a Houston school district. A 14-year was dropped into her school who appeared not to have ever received treatment. He bites, he kicks, he smears his feces. The school does not have any medical records on him. His parents have not kept any of the medical appointments that the school has set up on his behalf for fear of calling attention to their illegal status. By law, the school cannot share with other parents and teachers that they have a unknown health risk in their classroom. And, by law, the child will remain a student until age of 22. Offer these benefits at no cost and no questions asked and they will come.

  45. I think P. J. O’Rourke said something similar on the issue of the Haitian boat refugee’s back in the early 90s. It’s a good sentiment, but I doubt it will pass muster to those who automatically assume criminal tendencies from anyone of a darker hue than their own.

    Oh yes, I went there. I went there because I am yet to take part in a debate about immigration (legal or illegal) where the term “wetback, “spic,” “gook,” or “towel head” wasn’t used by the opposing side at one point or another.

    I’m all for immigration. When it comes to Mexico in particular, I’ve been all for open borders…But seeing hundreds of thousands of people in American cities march with Mexican flags in protest against a crackdown on illegal immigration gives me a big chunk of pause.

  46. Lets be honest here and realize that these marches are not about immigration, they are about Mexicans and the Mexican will to power. The last thing any of these people want is truely open borders. If the United States opened the borders and millions of desparate Chinese, Indians, Africans, ect, flooded in the country and began taking immigrant Mexicans jobs and lowering wages, no way would they be marching in the streets demanding that the new comers be allowed to stay.

    Further, this is also a conflict in the hispanic community. The Mexicans I know who have come here legally hate the illegals. First, the are offended by the fact that they followed the rules and the illegals aren’t but expect the same treatment. Second, most of the illegals are from a different socio economic class than the legals and the legals want nothing to do with them.

  47. Lets be honest here and realize that these marches are not about immigration, they are about Mexicans and the Mexican will to power.

    So you think these marches would still be occurring if vast numbers of immigrants weren’t living under the threat of deportation?

  48. NPR this morning was saying that there is a planned general strike, if that’s the right phrase, by immigrant workers on May 1st. It’s a sort of, “Oh, you think you can get by without us” type of demonstration, not a “We refuse to work until you make us citizens” sort of demonstration.

  49. “So you think these marches would still be occurring if vast numbers of immigrants weren’t living under the threat of deportation?”

    Of course not, but do you think the marchers would support truely open borders and letting people from other parts of the world come to this country and compete for their jobs or would have a problem if the government decided only to deport illegal Chinese? Get real.

  50. “NPR this morning was saying that there is a planned general strike, if that’s the right phrase, by immigrant workers on May 1st. It’s a sort of, “Oh, you think you can get by without us” type of demonstration, not a “We refuse to work until you make us citizens” sort of demonstration.”

    HAHA. That is funny. They are 3% of the workforce. Further, they have only managed to get maybe a million out of the eleven million illegals to come to marches and even that figure is being generous. In a country of 300 million people, no one will notice a million workers scattered over the entire country out for one day. What are they going to say after no one notices their strike or cares?

  51. Of course not, but do you think the marchers would support truely open borders and letting people from other parts of the world come to this country and compete for their jobs or would have a problem if the government decided only to deport illegal Chinese? Get real.

    You are ascribing the motives of this particular protest to other political beliefs that this population subset may (likely) have. However, here’s no reason to believe that their motives behind these particular protests aren’t as simple as what is seen on the surface.

  52. Has anyone pointed out how funny it would be if they hired ILLEGAL workers to build the wall? I swear, if I hear that joke made one more time…

    emerson, I mentioned this right up top. Only I wasn’t joking.

  53. In a joking exchange about the wall the other day I pointed out that we would have to import the concrete (or at least the Portland cement for it) and steel from Mexico to build a wall to keep the Mexicans out.

    Then this AM comes the story on my local NPR station that Florida DOT is having to defer some millions of dollars in highway construction due to material shortages. Imagine, we can’t even maintain and upgrade our existing infrastructure and the Congressclowns want to build a wall to keep out the Mexicans.

    Much of the shortage comes not only from the pressure from rebuilding after Katrina (and the four other storms that battered the SE in the last two years) but also from competition from China where their building boom continues unabated.

    These shortages are not just in manufactured products like cement and steel but in primary products like gravel and crushed stone.

  54. I’m guessing strikes by mexican will affect some areas of the country (Southern Californai) much more than others (North Dakota).

  55. Isaac,

    It would take them a while to build it anyway. Also, I am not sure it would be all cement. When they say wall, don’t they mean a really good fence?

  56. Kind of like, “I sentenced boys younger than you to the electric chair. I felt I owed it to them.”; so then do I feel that we have to sentence at least some Mexicans to poverty & deprivation.

    What if the guys that shot Ceaucescu would have moved to Germany to do yard work?

  57. Wow. This topic brings out the crazy in people.

  58. Wow. This topic brings out the crazy in people.

  59. HISPANIC LEADERS SPEAK OUT!

    Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; “Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die . . . Through love of having children, we are going to take over.

    Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. “They’re afraid we’re going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They’re right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay.”

    Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico, “The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot.”

    Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas; “We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it.”

    Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, “Remember 187–proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens–was the last gasp of white America in California.”

    Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, “We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, “I’m going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back.”

    Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton, “California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn’t like it should leave.”

    Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , “We are practicing ‘La Reconquista’ in California.”

    Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University; “We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . ”

    Are these just the words of a few extremists? Consider that we could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these are mainstream Mexican leaders.

    THE U.S. VS MEXICO:
    On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, “This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession.”

    Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts? It’s called affirmative action or racial privilege. The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent. Recently, a vote was taken in the U.S. Congress to end this practice. It was defeated. Every single Democratic senator except Ernest Hollings voted to maintain special privileges for Hispanic, Asian and African immigrants. They were joined by thirteen Republicans. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have repeatedly stated that they believe that massive immigration from countries like Mexico is good. They have also backed special privileges for these immigrants.

    Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.

    DID YOU KNOW?:
    Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County, California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How’s your county doing?

    According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia, 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the “greatest criminal challenge the country faces.” Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.

    Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. “Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying
    attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren’t fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references.”

    WHEN I WAS YOUNG:
    When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island. They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breath free. They wanted to become Americans. Now too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language. They demand special privileges–affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

  60. Now too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language. They demand special privileges–affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

    Anyone who caves into these so-called “demands” deserves to suffer the consequences. The actions of the spineless do not valididate anti-immigration arguments.

  61. Lets be honest here and realize that these marches are not about immigration, they are about Mexicans and the Mexican will to power.

    Holy shit. They’re not just driving down wages, they’re reading Nietzsche while they’re doing it!

  62. [I think it would be better to start with the snotty-mouthed Generation X-ers. What in hell have they ever been good for anyway, other than to squall and throw temper tantrums everytime their least little desires aren’t instantly gratified. On the other hand they do pretty much keep the fast food franchises in business. Could Jack-in-the-Crack have made it without them?

    Hardly. Gen-X’ers are anywhere from their late 20’s to early 40’s now, and the bulk of those driving the advances in technology today are Gen-X so I’d say we’ve been good for something. I don’t think many of us are working at “Jack-in-the-Crack” anymore.]

    Comment by: Brian Courts at April 10, 2006 01:23 PM

    Actually, I meant that Gen X-ers keep the fast food franchises in business by stuffing their guts there – not by working in them. But then I’d forgotten that yours is the first generation to have grown up with a boob tube for a mama.
    “working at Jack-in-the-Crack anymore” — when did anyone ever get any real work out you little darlings? Bunch of slackers! No wonder we need immigrants – who else is going to do the shit work like picking up after your fat asses?

  63. Of course we’re fucked up. We were raised by Baby Boomers.

  64. Hey, Boomer Dude, off to your abusive nursing home NOW!

  65. When they say wall, don’t they mean a really good fence?

    Actually, it will probably be atleast three rows of fences, with razor wire on top. This seems to be what they have between Tijuana and San Ysidro(?).

    Building it will take a lot of steel and a lot of concrete to anchor the posts.

    It will also take a lot of land, much of which is now in private hands. Some of that land is in urban areas and has improvements on it.

  66. [Of course we’re fucked up. We were raised by Baby Boomers.

    Comment by: Gen Xer at April 10, 2006 05:02 PM ]

    Naw, you were raised by daycare, pre-school, and public school,…and by the idiot box. Your parents were too busy both working to pay off the previous generation’s fuck-ups.

  67. Holy shit. They’re not just driving down wages, they’re reading Nietzsche while they’re doing it!

    LOL

  68. Hey Boomer Dude, you still haven’t explained what should happen to a man who helped a runaway slave (or a pot smoker, to use my example) in defiance of a law prohibiting that.

  69. I posted this on grylliade.org and I’ll post it here too:

    So, I have been thinking about the immigration issue, and I think it’s rather illuminating to compare it with the drug issue:

    1) Suppose that somebody said “I’m not against recreational drug use as long as it’s legal recreational drug use.” We’d all laugh at them. But when somebody says “I’m not against immigration as long as it’s legal immigration” it’s considered a respectable view. And some of the people making those arguments describe themselves as libertarians.

    2) Of course, illegal drug users and illegal immigrants can both cause some significant problems for the people around them. However many (though certainly not all) of these problems are associated with forcing the activity undergound, and would be alleviated by liberalization of laws. However, the illegal immigration foes, including some self-described libertarians who would (allegedly) support drug legalization, resist any such solution.

    3) When asked why they resist such a solution, they make arguments frequently heard from drug warriors. Aside from the usual arguments about damage to society and culture, they cite the existence of the welfare state. As long as there’s a welfare state, they want to limit the number of people crossing the border.

    I’ve heard similar arguments made about drugs: As long as we’re stuck providing welfare and health care to people who mess up their lives, we shouldn’t be legalizing dangerous drugs, say some of the drug warriors. I’ve heard more than one person say that he or she would be fine with drug legalization if there were no welfare state.

    Is the welfare state the big government program that justifies just about any other insane policy? “Well, as long as we have a welfare state we have to control people!” The argument has been made in favor of smoking bans, for instance.

    4) Just as there is a long and dishonorable history of racism being linked to prohibition sentiments (e.g. opium was originally banned because it was associated with “the heathen Chinese.”), may immigration foes seem to not like Latinos. No, not all immigration foes, but certainly a significant number.

    5) Proposals to crack down on immigration, much like proposals to crack down on drugs, rely on the dubious assumption that we can seal our southern border against people with huge economic incentives to find ways across.

    6) If immigration laws or drug laws were to be seriously enforced, millions of non-violent people would have to be rounded up on US soil and either expelled or imprisoned.

    7) Immigration foes, much like drug warriors, resist any facts that counter their stereotypes about the people they’re targeting. They like to ignore the very low unemployment rate among immigrants and the fact that illegals have a hard time obtaining a lot of social services. Yes, they do indeed consume some social services, but there are key services that they cannot get with nearly the ease that a citizen (or even a legal immigrant) could get the services.

    And drug warriors like to ignore the fact that many recreational drug users are in fact productive members of society.

    8 ) Ultimately, sealing the border against Mexican labor makes as little economic sense as trying to ban drugs.

    9) Strangely enough, both groups of statists are determined to reject a source of tax revenues: Drugs could be taxed and the money could be used to (supposedly) alleviate whatever pathologies cannot be remedied by liberalization. And if illegal immigrants were brought into the formal economy it would be easier to tax them and recoup the cost of whatever services they are supposedly consuming.

    Anyway, I’m heading out of town for a week, starting tomorrow morning, so I doubt I’ll be around to join in the discussion of this. Have fun.

  70. Suppose that somebody said “I’m not against recreational drug use as long as it’s legal recreational drug use.” We’d all laugh at them. But when somebody says “I’m not against immigration as long as it’s legal immigration” it’s considered a respectable view. And some of the people making those arguments describe themselves as libertarians.

    I’d much prefer people buy (and be able to buy) legal, medical-grade drugs than street drugs cut with god-knows-what, wouldn’t you? Similarly, I’d rather people go through (and be able to go through) border-crossings than foot it across the desert and possibly get killed. (And in both cases, I’d much prefer people be able to accomplish both without dealing with criminals.)

    More directly, immigration is an activity that is quite often legal, unlike most recreational drugs. We don’t have to legalize it in order to liberalize it. Also, guarding the border of a country is something I’d think most (non-anarchist) libertarians would agree was a function of a government.

  71. “Suppose that somebody said “I’m not against recreational drug use as long as it’s legal recreational drug use.” We’d all laugh at them. But when somebody says “I’m not against immigration as long as it’s legal immigration” it’s considered a respectable view. And some of the people making those arguments describe themselves as libertarians.”

    Cute, but so what? What does illegal drug use have to do with illegal immigration?

    You open borders types assert that these 12 million illegals are an unmitigated good. I would like to point out that most of you are east coasters and don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. You also cry racist at every opportunity thereby reducing all opposing arguments to simply the rantings of a bunch of white, hate-filled, bigots. You are all so righteous and correct because you are not racist, and we who oppose illegal immigration are all so… evil, and so our arguments have no merit; that is a sweet deal for you guys. Oh yeah, and Thoreau will eventually trot out his “dark skinned Italian ancestors” and ask if they should have been deported. Never mind that comparing immigrants who crossed the fucking Atlantic ocean, and were invited to do so with the current hoards is silly.

    Maybe we ought to just put every impoverished person on Earth on the US welfare dole. That would be ever so loving, and tender. Just think, they would have no need to migrate at all. They would not need to deal with coyotes, wiley or otherwise. It seems just also. I mean why shouldn’t the world’s poor be eligible for the US dole, just as our own poor are eligible?

  72. “Immigration foes, much like drug warriors, resist any facts that counter their stereotypes about the people they’re targeting. They like to ignore the very low unemployment rate among immigrants and the fact that illegals have a hard time obtaining a lot of social services. Yes, they do indeed consume some social services, but there are key services that they cannot get with nearly the ease that a citizen (or even a legal immigrant) could get the services.

    And drug warriors like to ignore the fact that many recreational drug users are in fact productive members of society.”

    God, I am terrible. Not only am I a racist, but I am a drug warrior as well. Thanks for the well placed words in my mouth. What else will you have me say?

  73. are east coasters and don’t know what the fuck you are talking about

    huh? Is that because our immigrant communities are not primarily mexican?

    IIRC the top 5 largest immigrant communities in Alexandria VA were,the last time I checked (and they were compiled):

    1.El Salvador
    2.Korea
    3.Honduras
    4.Ethiopia
    5.Mexico

    Others include Russia, Somalia, Peru, Afghanistan, Guatemala. It goes on..

    That was a couple of years ago so it has probably changed already.

    I don’t know about other places on the east coast, but there are plenty of immigrants around here. How are we misinformed again?

  74. MK,

    You’re right. You DC citizens are taking the brunt of the illegal invasion. Millions have flooded into DC in the last couple of years. Millions more will come in the next couple of years. Your hospitals have closed their emergency rooms because they can’t afford to continue to operate for free. Your schools are bursting at the seams and the “activists” are clamoring for bilingual education because assimilation into the larger society is difficult, and besides it does not fit the plan. And we west-coasters are completely unsympathetic. We just say fuck ’em, if they weren’t such racists they would not be in this pickle.

  75. I went from immigrant-heavy California to immigrant-heavy DC, while working in a field (physics research) that is overwhelmed with immigrants. And while my colleagues have visas, many of them have to go to great lengths to navigate this ridiculous system. A single slip and they’re screwed. I know a guy who had to skip his father’s funeral because if he left the US at that particular stage of the immigration process he’d never be let back in. (Yes, the system really is that perverse.)

    Don’t look at me like I’m some east coast elitist who’s never seen real immigration.

  76. taking the brunt of the illegal invasion

    Ah, I see, you’re just a troll. Nevermind.

    Other interesting tidbit. Alexandria’s only high school – T.C. Williams (the one from Remember The Titans) has among their student body children who speak 39+ different languages primarily in the home.

    Once again, that was a couple of years ago.

  77. I was wondering when the “welfare state” argument will show up. Lo and behold, here comes Wayne delivering it.

    You xenophobic mind seems to be forgetting one thing: immigrants don’t come to the US because of the welfare system. They come there to work (that is, generate wealth), not suck on the welfare system’s teat.

    Oh wait, they’re damn furriners. And we all know those stupid furriners are lazy, stealing and murdering bastards, don’t we ? Obviously, that includes me, since I don’t live in America.

  78. T,

    Is this your attempt at humor? No, really? You are comparing Phd physicists from China and India (most likely) with the kind of immigration we are discussing here.

    You’re not some dippy east-coast elitist at all. No sirree, good ole Thoreau has been on the front lines for sure. Yep, the stampede of 12 million (and counting) Phd physicists has been stright through your living room. Us racist, drug warriors just hate well educated, Phd bestowed physicists because, well they’re… dark, and their breath smells of garlic, and they talk funny, and they eat with sticks, and…

    That’s a good one T.

  79. “Oh wait, they’re damn furriners. And we all know those stupid furriners are lazy, stealing and murdering bastards, don’t we ? Obviously, that includes me, since I don’t live in America.”

    Danny, you’re right, so shut the fuck up and fix your own country’s messes.

  80. The problems in my country would be a lot smaller if FDR hadn’t given Eastern Europe (because that’s where I live) to the Soviets on a plate after World War II.

    But since you seem to believe immigration is a privilege rather than a right, I’d really like to know : what rights does a human being posses? Or do you think all this talk about “individual rights” is just a bunch of crap?

  81. “You xenophobic mind seems to be forgetting one thing: immigrants don’t come to the US because of the welfare system. They come there to work (that is, generate wealth), not suck on the welfare system’s teat.”

    Who said they come for the welfare? Not me. I agree that they come to work, and I agree that they are by and large good people. But they do wind up, in large numbers, as a burden to the social infrastructure: schools, hospitals, welfare rolls, etc.

    As I have said before on this topic, this is an American problem, not a Mexican or Honduran or Guatemalan, or any other …an problem. The solution is to deal with the illegals just as Mexico does: Only US citizens, and those here legally should receive societal services. Then throw open the borders and let in all the PhDs we can bare.

  82. “Only US citizens, and those here legally should receive societal services. Then throw open the borders and let in all the PhDs we can bare.”

    Dude, that’s what everybody here is saying.

  83. “I’d really like to know : what rights does a human being posses?”

    YOu have the right to breath for as long as you can support your bodily needs with food and water, unless somebody bigger and meaner than you takes that right away. What “rights” do you think a human being has?

    Ultimately, the only “rights” any of us possess are those that we take. There are no “God given” rights. In the US (supposedly) we have the right to “free speech” because that right is codified in our constitution in the first amendment. Actually, I would give the US high marks for first amendment rights, but our constitution is completely ignored when it comes to the second amendment, so much for “laws”.

  84. “Dude, that’s what everybody here is saying.”

    Danny, your English seems excellent for an East bloc commie (that is a joke, just in case you missed it). You need to go back and read through these posts again though. Denial of social services is not embraced here at all, and I am a racist just for raising the issue.

  85. So “individual rights” are just an invention. Then what exactly is the difference between you and a communist?

    By the way, why do you think the idea of “jury nullification” was introduced? What is its purpose, if not to prevent the punishment of individuals because of absurd laws (that is, laws that violate the “individual rights” whose existence you deny) ? According to your logic, there are no stupid laws, since there aren’t any “individual rights”. Therefore, no need for “jury nullification”, right?

  86. No, I was trying to say that I’ve lived and worked among immigrants from every level of society.

  87. Wayne, you are right, nobody mentioned denial of social services on this thread.

    But the way I see it, no social services should exist in libertopia. Therefore, no true libertarian should have any objection to your idea (incidentally, I totally agree with you on this one).

    And the impression that I (and other people, it seems) got from your first postings was that you hate immigrants simply because of their desire to move to your country. Glad to see I was wrong.

  88. “Then what exactly is the difference between you and a communist?”

    Let me ask you a question: You seem to be implying that there are some rights that are universal and inherent. If that is the case then why don’t they exist universally.

    Did you know that jury nullification is not “allowed”? It happens, and that is a good thing because there are many stupid, and evil laws, but it is not a legal “right”.

    I guess you and I are talking about different things. Your notion of a “right” seems to be of the “all people are embued with certain inalienable right” sort. I guess I would point out that all those “inalienable rights” were taken by force from the king, and they did not exist until they were written down.

  89. “Then what exactly is the difference between you and a communist?”

    Let me ask you a question: You seem to be implying that there are some rights that are universal and inherent. If that is the case then why don’t they exist universally.

    Did you know that jury nullification is not “allowed”? It happens, and that is a good thing because there are many stupid, and evil laws, but it is not a legal “right”.

    I guess you and I are talking about different things. Your notion of a “right” seems to be of the “all people are embued with certain inalienable right” sort. I guess I would point out that all those “inalienable rights” were taken by force from the king, and they did not exist until they were written down.

  90. “Is this your attempt at humor? No, really? You are comparing Phd physicists from China and India (most likely) with the kind of immigration we are discussing here.”

    Wayne, I think his point was that if the current naturalization process we have now is complicated for a PhD, imagine how complicated it would be for a low skilled worker to navigate succesfully.

    You might consider me an elitist since I live in Virginia–albiet in Richmond, not Novaville. But this area of the nation, especially for the size our our metropolitan area, has had its fair share of immigrants.

    First the Cambodians and Koreans, and then the Mexicans and El Salvadorians have revitilized the decaying inner suburbs around Richmond and started many productive small businesses.

    Hardly welfare parasites or Hispanic secessionists–however the only immigrant nationality that would have any claim to Virginia’s soil would be English ones.

  91. Specifically, while in school in southern California I lived in neighborhoods with a lot of Latino immigrants, and I found them to be better neighbors than a lot of Americans.

    Where do you live, wayne?

    And I never said that you’re a drug warrior. I said that many of the anti-immigration arguments bear a disturbing resemblance to the arguments made by drug warriors.

  92. “Your notion of a “right” seems to be of the “all people are embued with certain inalienable right” sort.”

    Hmmm… I like to call it “classical liberalism”.

    Yes, freedom was taken by force. But the way you put it, liberalism (I use it in its classical sense) has to be on a perpetual defense. The moment you say “you have no rights other than what the law says”, you lose the moral high ground.

    Morality cannot be proven (actually it can be explained from an evolutionary perspective, just not proven), but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s the same with individual rights. You can’t prove them like you prove a mathematical theorem, but society crumbles without them. Well, at least the kind of society I’d like.

  93. “No, I was trying to say that I’ve lived and worked among immigrants from every level of society.”

    T, you are usually a VERY articulate guy, but you totally fucked that one up. That’s OK, I forgive you. Besides, I already made fun of your response enough.

    I have lived and worked with immigrants from every level of society as well. I like immigrants. I like their food, and their accents, and their goofy humor. My position is not about disliking immigrants. I am appalled at the seeming unraveling of our society because of the mostly financial pressures applied by many millions of needy people.

  94. 1) Suppose that somebody said “I’m not against recreational drug use as long as it’s legal recreational drug use.” We’d all laugh at them.

    So this means because I oppose recreational drug laws, I also have to oppose laws prohibiting driving under their influence?

    Sorry, guy, but your analogy doesn’t hold. Immigration is perfectly legal, as long as certain processes are followed. Even legitimate activities have restrictions on how and when they’re performed. I have no problem with allowing people to take drugs. I do have a problem with tripping people flying airplanes and tearing down the freeway in a semi-truck.

    5) Proposals to crack down on immigration, much like proposals to crack down on drugs, rely on the dubious assumption that we can seal our southern border against people with huge economic incentives to find ways across.

    It might be a dubious assumption if it weren’t for the fact that every nation on earth secures their borders, and most of them are more circumspect about doing so than we are. In fact, Mexico’s security on their southern border is notorious.

    7) Immigration foes, much like drug warriors, resist any facts that counter their stereotypes about the people they’re targeting. They like to ignore the very low unemployment rate among immigrants and the fact that illegals have a hard time obtaining a lot of social services. Yes, they do indeed consume some social services, but there are key services that they cannot get with nearly the ease that a citizen (or even a legal immigrant) could get the services.

    That’s an interesting piece of circular reasoning. You’re citing the disincentive for consuming social services due to being illegally resident as a justification for granting legal status.

    So what happens when you’re removed the disincentive of being illegal?

  95. Let me try to be clear about illegal immigrants to the US:

    1. They are mostly good people. They work hard for not enough money. They are usually exploited by business owners because of their status.

    2. They are not welfare leaches, at least they do not come to the US with that as their motivation.

    3. I genuinely like most of the ones that I know.

    4. We (at least here in California) have absorbed too many of them. Our infrastructure is crumbling because of the onslaught.

    Our (the US) situation is kind of like having friends over for dinner. Having five or six is kind of fun. You can all pitch in together and make a nice dinner and have a bottle of wine and enjoy each other. But when 2500 friends show up at the door, well then you have a cluster-fuck and your carpet gets puked on, and your toilet clogs and your wife gets groped, and your children roll their eyes at you, and the neighbors piss on your doorstep in protest. Your furniture breaks under the crush of bodies, and the stench of sweaty bodies pervades your house. 2500 friends in your living room is a thing to be avoided.

  96. Daniel,

    I understand classical liberalism. I embrace the concept from a philosophical view point. But if you are trying to extend that notion by saying that everybody has the right to come to America and be a US citizen, then I think you have been smoking what us drug warriors would prefer that you not smoke.

  97. I am not extanding any notion, I am merely applying it.

    Yes, anybody should have a chance at an honest life in a new country. I’m not talking about citizenship, I’m talking about moving to a new country and making an honest living there.

    You seem to embrace the idea of immigration quotas. So who gets to immigrate? Who gets to decide wether the immigrant is admitted or not? Don’t you see the obvious unfairness of it?

    America is a huge country, with a much lower population density than many other rich nations. So don’t give me that crap with “there’s not enough room”, because I’m not buying.

    And what I smoke is none of your bussiness 😛

  98. “And I never said that you’re a drug warrior. I said that many of the anti-immigration arguments bear a disturbing resemblance to the arguments made by drug warriors.”

    OK. Your enumerated list seemed to be meant to paint anti-illegal-immigration viewpoints with those of the drug warrior. In my view, one has nothing to do with the other. Maybe I am just touchy and annoyed at being called a xenophobe, and a racist once too often.

  99. And by the way, hasn’t this occured before? Didn’t they say the same thing about the Italians or the Irish ?

    And as soon as they were allowed to blend in, they did just that, and everybody forgot there ever was a debate concerning them.

    Isn’t that what happened?

  100. Wayne, really we’re talking about 10,000 guests because once amnesty is given to the illegal immigrants here they get to bring wife and kids in as well.

    This is one giant cluster-fuck about to happen. And in 10 years we’ll be wondering what to do with 20-40 million more illegal immigrants who take a swing knowing they’ll eventually get citizenship. They know all they have to do is march and the US liberals will give them what they want.

  101. Daniel,

    A blanket invitation to the world… no, I would oppose that. My opposition would be based on selfish reasons. I like the quality of life that America offers. I don’t want a country packed to the gills with sweaty human bodies.

    I would be happy for you to come to America though. You are intelligent, and articulate, and I think you would probably be a positive addition to the country.

    T, since you ask, I live in the desert northeast of LA in a town called Ridgecrest.

  102. “And by the way, hasn’t this occured before? Didn’t they say the same thing about the Italians or the Irish ?”

    That was then and this is now. Back then we had the western frontier that was mostly unpopulated and we needed people to settle those areas. The Italians and Irish came legally, they were invited. When it was determined that we had enough immigrants, it was a relatively simple matter to turn off the spigot. There was, after all, a whole ocean that had to be crossed to get here.

    We still need some immigrants here. The PhD types that T works with, and others as well. We don’t need impoverished, unskilled, needy people though.

  103. “That was then and this is now. Back then we had the western frontier that was mostly unpopulated and we needed people to settle those areas. ”

    Yeah, but the Italians and Irish tended to settle in large, crowded east coast cities. Not the frontier.

  104. “Yeah, but the Italians and Irish tended to settle in large, crowded east coast cities. Not the frontier.”

    So, because we invited immigrants to come to America 150 years ago, we now must open the borders to all who want to come? And we must educate, medicate, and fornicate them? Actually, I was kidding about the fornicate thing but it was the only …ate word that came to mind.

  105. “Actually, I was kidding about the fornicate thing but it was the only …ate word that came to mind.”

    I had a Peruvian girlfriend, is that what you mean?

  106. “Yeah, but the Italians and Irish tended to settle in large, crowded east coast cities. Not the frontier.”

    Really? Then how did Chicago get so many Irish and California end up with so many Italians?

  107. “Really? Then how did Chicago get so many Irish and California end up with so many Italians?”

    Chicago is a large, eastern city. And it didn’t get nearly as many as New York and Boston.

    Im willing to bet there are far, far and away more Italians in New Jersey and New York than in California. Im also willing to be the ones in California moved there well after the frontier closed.

    http://www.economicadventure.org/visit/exhibits/nbss/maps/ancestry/ancestry.cfm

    Tell me, how many counties in California are there where the largest ethnicity is Italian compared to , say; New Jersey?

    And how many are there that are Irish in Illinois compared to Massachusetts?

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