Bank to Seizers: Drop Dead
Comments stalwart Douglas Fletcher notes that Winston-Salem, NC-based bank BB&T Corp. (as Jacob Sullum discussed yesterday) has announced it will not provide loans for commercial projects on land seized through eminent domain. The move probably won't have a big practical impact, as BB&T, which has 1,400 branches in 11 states, has so far only been approached for one such loan and does almost 25 percent of its business in North Carolina, where Kelo-type seizures are ostensibly prohibited. The Charlotte Observer notes that the bank has a history of making "slightly eccentric demonstrations of its commitment to corporate citizenship," including endowments to local colleges for the study of the moral foundations of capitalism.
The New York Times story on BB&T's decision includes a disclosure statement about the Times' own eminent domain history, and quotes a representative from a developers' trade group think tank showing the kind of respect for OPP that makes these condemnations possible:
But Maureen L. McAvey, a senior fellow at the Urban Land Institute, a developers' organization based in Washington, said that it was odd that a bank would not want to judge each case on its merits to see if the forced sale of property was justified.
"It's curious that a major financial institution would choose to be both judge and jury," she said.
And "both judge and jury" is a curious way to describe a bank's decision about whether or not to grant somebody a loan.
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Judge and Jury, yeah. I think it is time those who got denied the loan should sue the bank for unfair practices. I mean, this is DISCRIMINATION!
The ULI is not a developers' trade group. It is an actual think tank.
The CEO of BB&T came to talk to a business class I was taking a couple of years ago in college down in NC. Seemed like a pretty good guy then and my respect for him and the company has just grown.
Check out the values page of BB&T bank (http://www.bbandt.com/about/philosophy/values.html) This is the best summation and expression of the values that are at the heart of Atlas Shrugged and capitalism that I have ever seen. What?s amazing is that in this age of PCness - especially in corporations whose unending wishy washy value statements, in fact, state nothing, - BB&T has the courage to outline a value system based on Capitalism, which is what every business should be founded upon. Not some sort of muddled "do no evil" pledge like Google.
Actually, John, in a free society, each business should be founded and based on whatever principles its founders want it to be. Not the principles you think they should adopt. That's sort of the exact definition of "freedom."
joe: See? Damned MSM can't get anything right.
in a free society, each business should be founded and based on whatever principles its founders want it to be. Not the principles you think they should adopt.
In a Friedman Socially Optimal society, John is correct.
Actually, John, in a free society, each business should be founded and based on whatever principles its founders want it to be. Not the principles you think they should adopt. That's sort of the exact definition of "freedom."
Phil, I got the impression that when John said businesses "should" act a certain way he was expressing an opinion, not suggesting a new law. Similar to me saying, "People 'should' brush their teeth after they eat."
Just to clarify: I think people should brush their teeth regularly, but I no way advocate taking away people's freedom to ignore the basics of good oral hygiene.
I didn't say he was suggesting a new law, did I? (checks) Nope.
I didn't say he was suggesting a new law, did I? (checks) Nope.
No, you accused him of being ignorant of the definition of freedom.
I don't know if this makes a difference, Phil, but he's not the same John who posts the same old tired Republican talking points in every single Iraq thread.
No, I didn't do that either. Keep trying. You'll get there.
Just to clarify: I think people should brush their teeth regularly, but I no way advocate taking away people's freedom to ignore the basics of good oral hygiene.
We appreciate that.
Phil,
Jennifer is right. While freedom allows a business to be founded on any principles its founders damn well want to found it on, freedom ALSO allows you, me, Jennifer AND John to say whatever the hell they damn well want to ABOUT any particular business's principles.
If you disagree, please say why.
If I misunderstood you, please tell me how. I certainly understood you to be criticizing John for saying what he thought a business's principles should be, just as Jennifer did.
North Carolina, where Kelo-type seizures are ostensibly prohibited
Mmmm.... not sure that's entirely how to put it. The Charter of the City of Charlotte specifically permits economic development takings.
True, the statewide ED statute is written more broadly, but it uses the term "public use". Which is not terribly discernable from Kelo's "public benefit" requirement.
Then there's an Urban Redevelopment law that uses the term "public purpose" instead of public use. Property just has to be "blighted". I think the courts are at least somewhat tougher on the state than they are in other places in terms of making them prove the blight, but as written, there's no clear Kelo-prevention safeguard.
As it is, the state assembly is planning an amendment to the state constitution to address all this.
This is a slick bit of PR for a fairly small banking institution, but pretty meaningless if they weren?t writing loans of this nature anyway.
Next they should announce, ?We do not use slave labor? and ?We do not torture puppies?.
I have a car loan from BB&T, and I would just like to assure everybody that no puppies were tortured in the processing of my loan application.
How can you tell? They may outsource puppy torture to a secret bank in a former soviet state.
Next they should announce, ?We do not use slave labor? and ?We do not torture puppies?.
Or follow Gillespie's idea that Domino's should start advertising its pizza as "100-Percent Fetus-Free," just so that other pizza makers would have to come clean about whether they're using fetuses in their pizza.
Seems that one appropriate way to show our support for BB&T's stance on this issue would be to purchase some stock. Which makes me wonder ... is there some kind of mutual fund that trades in companies supporting capitalism, choice, and free will for those of us who are relatively poor (right of school) and lazy?
There's really no limit to the number of things a company can deny doing and yet imply at the same time their competitors are doing.
There's really no limit to the number of things a company can deny doing and yet imply at the same time their competitors are doing.
And yet, Dan, BB&T's competitors are loaning money in eminent domain cases, which is why your puppy-torture analogy doesn't work.
Seems that one appropriate way to show our support for BB&T's stance on this issue would be to purchase some stock.
I don?t know about anybody else, but I?m not going to buy stock in a company that plans on turning down legitimate business over some half-baked moral principle!
There's really no limit to the number of things a company can deny doing and yet imply at the same time their competitors are doing.
But isn't that the difference between what the bank is pledging and pledging not to torture puppies. Because other banks are writing loans of this nature? Granted, as Cavanaugh acknowledges, if it's not likely to be a large part of their business, it may be a small to negligent sacrifice. But all this torturing puppies/fetus in the pizza stuff is silly unless one is claiming that no banks are writing such loans.
"Next they should announce, We do not use slave labor and We do not torture puppies."
Hey Dan,
"I just want more information. That's all. To make an informed choice as consumer."
That's roughly paraphrasin someone who wants all their non-organic food labelled "irradiated".
So when a corporation does it, it's "slick PR"?
But an advocacy group does it, it's FUD. Right?
Dan T, wrong again. There is a legitimate reason for not loaning money in those cases - if the land can be seized in one instance, what's to stop it from happening again, thus making it possible that BB&T doesn't get their money back.
Jennifer beat me to it!!
Meh. I'll take mine with extra fetus. And pepperoni.
And yet, Dan, BB&T's competitors are loaning money in eminent domain cases, which is why your puppy-torture analogy doesn't work.
True?I guess some of them obviously are, some probably are not.
Like I said, it was a nice bit of PR. I?m sure other banks are kicking themselves for not thinking of it first.
Dan T, wrong again. There is a legitimate reason for not loaning money in those cases - if the land can be seized in one instance, what's to stop it from happening again, thus making it possible that BB&T doesn't get their money back.
Well, it?s called ?risk? and it?s inherent in the practice of lending money. I don?t know if there?s any reason to think that seized property is likely to be re-seized shortly thereafter but I doubt it. Either way, it would make more sense to evaluate possible loans on a case-by-case basis.
Dan, this whole idea you have the BB&T just pulled this out of their ass for financial benefit is way off track. For years they have explicitly espoused freedom, reason and the Objectivist way ;-)...anyway, if the accusation doesn't fit, you're all full of...well, call Johnny Conchran.
when John said businesses "should" act a certain way he was expressing an opinion, not suggesting a new law.
So many people see absolutely no difference.
I don?t know if there?s any reason to think that seized property is likely to be re-seized shortly thereafter but I doubt it. Either way, it would make more sense to evaluate possible loans on a case-by-case basis.
Dan, that's too narrow an interpretation of what he said. It's not that the seized property will be re-seized. That's nigh on unlikely.
What it's about is the conditions for investment generally.
Look at countries with lots of upheavel, crooked courts, and constant political turnover. How much investment is there? Very little. Because the condiditions for investment are poor. Nobody wants to invest in a place where their investment might be seized by the local thugs the next morning.
Now, imagine a country where the government can take private citizens' land at any time, virtually without limit. We'd consider that country a banana republic, a basket-case. Few would be willing to invest there.
Yet this is exactly what the Kelo ruling has turned us into. Don't take my word for it; read the dissenting SCOTUS opinions. That's how they interpreted the majority's ruling as well.
Mere outrage from the Sheeple isn't what this post-Kelo backlash is about. Shit, the sheeple barely have a clue, and half of them are ED-loving state-worshippers.
No. The reason 38 or so states moved almost immediately to abrogate a SCOTUS ruling is that the ruling pissed off the money lords. The money lords don't like it when conditions for investment become uncertain. The money lords, owning and controlling as they do, the members of the legislatures across the land, demanded swift changes to the laws to protect their investments.
For once, this influence has proved to be of great benefit to society as a whole. For once.
Paranoid,
Disclaimer: I am totally against the use of eminent domain for private2private takings...
...but they are not comparable to the uncompensated takings common in 3d world countries. Banks get their money all right; it comes out of the money the govt pays for the land.
fyodor, what I meant -- which Jennifer could have discerned by asking me instead of twice telling me what I meant -- is that, yes, while everyone is free to offer their opinion, "should" is (ironically, for someone decrying "PCness" and "wishy-washy value statements") a pointless word that means nothing more significant than, "If I were making decisions for you, this is the one I would make." Well, you're not, so don't sweat it. When you run Google, you can issue whatever values statements you want. But you don't, so ain't no "should" involved.
Yeah okay, "should" is pretty vague and doesn't tell us much. Your original post didn't address that. NOW I understand.
It doesn't really matter if it is "slick PR" or veiled inference of competitor wrong doing... Either way, the result is at the least increasing public awareness and interest in the whole smarmy ED trend, and at the best the potential tipping of the public scale towards ED becoming a highly disfavored and unfashionable thing for a business to do. Thus causing more and more support mechanism organizations to turn their back on those practicing ED abuse.
Sue me, I'm an pragmatic optimist.
This is an example of what I think is a general truth: The freer a society or community is, including the economic freedom we call capitalism, the more options there are to respond to encroachments on freedom by the government. We would not be reading about this splendid development if the government owned or had even greater control of the banks.
...including endowments to local colleges for the study of the moral foundations of capitalism.
What wonderful, liberty loving, folks!! I think we should reward them by moving part of our monies to their bank. I'm gonna see if it's at all practical for me and if so, I'm gonna do it.
what's to stop it from happening again, thus making it possible that BB&T doesn't get their money back.
yeah loans go with the title to the land. If the government wants to get out of paying the loan they have to let the taxes lapse then let it go up for tax forclosure sale have thier brother buy it back then quit claim it back just like everyone else.
Did I mention I was pure evil.
anyway funny stuff aside in a case of a loan the title is usually tied up with the bank so the government would in essense be "taking" it from the bank not the loan debter.
Of course there are cases where the bank loan is not tied up with the title but the bank would have to be pretty crazy to ever get in a situation like that in the first place.
when John said businesses "should" act a certain way he was expressing an opinion, not suggesting a new law.
"So many people see absolutely no difference."
That's terrible since the difference is of paramount importance!
Lowdog,
"Dan T, wrong again. There is a legitimate reason for not loaning money in those cases - if the land can be seized in one instance, what's to stop it from happening again, thus making it possible that BB&T doesn't get their money back."
That's not really valid. The fact that land was once taden via eminent domain doesn't make it any easier to take it again than any other piece of land. There is no additional risk to loaning money for redevelopment projects that involve ED than any other redevelopment project.
crimethink wrote
they are not comparable to the uncompensated takings common in 3d world countries. Banks get their money all right; it comes out of the money the govt pays for the land.
Not when the amount left on the note is greater than the proceeds from the taking. The other day on a similar thread i linked to an article in the Raleigh paper about a guy in Durham, NC with a $370,000 note secured by a property the govt appraised at -- and offered -- $216,000.
Quite a shortfall for the bank.
And that doesn't even take into account for any other encumbrances on the property that might have a higher priority claim to those proceeds.
Oops! Sig malfunction. Must be gettin close to Super Bowl time.
"There is no additional risk to loaning money for redevelopment projects that involve ED than any other redevelopment project."
I think there is. If the project looked that lucrative, it wouldn't've required an ED taking. I suspect ED makes a lot more marginal projects look feasible.
Somehow related to the topic.
What is the libertarian take on the issue?
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Across the United States, an unprecedented acceleration in suburban sprawl is prompting concerns about the environment, traffic, health and damage to rural communities, but opponents appear powerless to stop the process because of the economic development and profits it generates.
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Sprawl, defined as the unplanned, uncontrolled expansion of urban areas beyond their fringes, has greatly accelerated over the past 25 years, spurred by low mortgage interest rates and aggressive developers.
According to the National Resources Inventory, about 34 million acres -- an area the size of Illinois -- were converted to developed uses between 1982 and 2001. Development in the 1990s averaged around 2.2. million acres a year, compared to 1.4 million
in the 1980s. By 2001, the total developed area in the lower 48 states was slightly more than 106 million acres.
In other words, around one-third of that total was paved over in the final two decades of the 20th century.
"In the realm of local government, growth is one of the most controversial issues, and we see no-growth or slow-growth groups becoming more sophisticated and powerful over time," said Richard Hall of the Maryland Department of Planning.
However, he said opposition tended to fade during economic downturns, when people became less concerned about the environment. Even when opponents succeeded in blocking a specific development, the net effect was often merely to move it to somewhere else.
"Some politicians have tried to do something but they have rarely succeeded in stemming the tide. Developers and realtors have developed a powerful political lobby," said Joel Hirschhorn, a former director of environment, energy and natural resources at the National Governors Association and author of "Sprawl Kills -- Better Living in Healthy Places."
STEERING DEVELOPMENT
"Smart growth" or "slow growth" advocates usually argue that development should be concentrated in existing urban or suburban areas instead of in new suburbs. Many states and counties have tried to protect open space by buying land and through zoning and other regulations.
Others try to provide incentives for farmers and foresters to remain on their land. None of these has had any measurable effect in slowing sprawl.
For Maryland Rep. Wayne Gilchrest (news, bio, voting record), a moment of truth came when he was flying over the Atlantic coastline close to his own congressional district and he saw in the distance what looked like a massive cemetery.
Gilchrest, a Republican who represents an area of northern Maryland alongside the Chesapeake Bay, looked closer and realized he was viewing a huge new suburban development that had sprung up seemingly overnight.
"I'm afraid our heritage is being arbitrarily and summarily discarded without the slightest thought of what we are losing." Gilchrest said in an interview.
In the Chesapeake Bay watershed, which comprises parts of seven northeastern states, some 128,000 acres of natural land are converted into suburbs every year and the rate more than doubled in the 1990s. The number of houses has expanded at more than twice the rate of population growth.
For centuries, Gilchrest said, his community survived through agriculture, forestry and harvesting the rich resources of the bay. But pollution is killing the bay; it no longer supports a sizeable oyster or crab industry. And farmland is fast being turned into clusters of vacation and retirement homes for residents of Washington, D.C., Baltimore and Philadelphia.
Opponents blame sprawl for a host of problems from traffic jams to bad air, polluted waterways, the destruction of traditional lifestyles and even asthma and obesity.
"Sprawl is killing people, some 300,000 premature deaths annually because of the sprawl sedentary lifestyle, and it is killing our natural environment, scenic vistas, biodiversity, rural towns and much more," said Hirschhorn.
But Robert Bruegmann, a University of Illinois at Chicago professor of architecture and urban planning, and author of "Sprawl: A Compact History" debunked many of these assertions.
SERVING THE MARKET
"What we call sprawl is the process of a lot of people being able to acquire what only the wealthiest people used to be able to have -- a single family home on land with private transportation," he said, echoing the argument of developers that they were merely catering to what the market demanded.
According to Bruegmann, densely populated cities were much unhealthier and worse for the environment than suburbs.
"Agriculture is often worse for the environment that suburbs while cities did a terrible job of protecting water quality," he said.
Still, citizens in some states are responding to politicians' calls to slow or halt sprawl. Last year, Democrat Timothy Kaine won election as governor of Virginia partly by promising a solution to the state's crowded highways.
In his first speech to the state assembly this month, Kaine proposed giving local governments more power to slow growth. "We cannot allow uncoordinated development to overwhelm our roads and infrastructure," he said.
In response, home builders and real estate agents immediately sent 200 of their members to the state capital of Richmond to lobby state representatives and remind them of the dangers of halting development.
Though there is little polling information, a Gallup survey in March 2001 found that 69 percent of Americans were worried about sprawl and the loss of green spaces.
But the economic forces behind sprawl are powerful. "It's hard for a farmer to turn down $100,000 an acre from a developer when he's not making a tenth of that from agriculture," Gilchrest said.
But before you comment...
FYI
http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/curitiba/