Tapped Out
Conservative pundit Mona Charen is on On Point talking an impressive amount of nonsense about the NSA wiretap program (which we're now told we must question-beggingly refer to as the "terrorist surveillance program").
She opens with a familiar the-other-side-is-Bush-Deranged line, conceding that "reasonable people can disagree" about whether the president overstepped his bounds in authorizing the program, but that suggestion that a crime (or, heaven forfend, impeachable offense) has been committed is loony and beyond the pale. But if the president doesn't have some independent legal basis, superceding FISA, to conduct such surveillance, then FISA itself pretty clearly stipulates that such surveillance is a crime. There's not some squishy, "reasonable" middle ground here where wiretaps were unlawful but not criminal.
Second, she's acting on a kind of dualist understanding of presidential power that's seemed implicit in a fair amount of commentary on the wiretap program: Either the president has no inherent constitutional authority that might have allowed him to authorize taps under any circumstances, or he has, in which case FISA is unconstitutional to the extent it limits those powers. But that picture ignores the framework laid out in Justice Jackson's concurrence in the Youngstown Steel case:
When the President acts pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress, his authority is at its maximum, for it includes all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate…. When the President acts in absence of either a congressional grant or denial of authority, he can only rely upon his own independent powers, but there is a zone of twilight in which he and Congress may have concurrent authority, or in which its distribution is uncertain…. When the President takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, his power is at its lowest ebb, for then he can rely only upon his own constitutional powers minus any constitutional powers of Congress over the matter.
Now, insofar as the administration is relying on the president's Article II powers as commander-in-chief of American military forces, it's pretty clear that this is one of those zones of overlap or "concurrent authority," for among the enumerated powers of Congress is the power "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces," which are the same forces to which the president's "commander-in-chief" authority explicitly applies. If you include intelligence agencies in that category (fair enough), you've got to do it for both branches. So it might well be that the president has the power to improvise, as it were, when Congress has not laid down rules. But that doesn't mean that the president cannot then be limited by rules Congress has laid down, that his inherent authority somehow squeezes out all congressional authority.
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The President broke the law. He needs to be put on trial, and evicted from office. Why is this still even being discussed?
I'm afraid that the fed has already gotten enough power so that revolution, which is long overdue, is no longer possible.
Get the fuck out of the country while you still can.
Julian is going to stand up against conservatives efforts to steal bases by foisting their preferred terms on us ("terrorist surveillance program) right up to his dying day.
When he pays his "Death Tax."
I like how all the talking heads express the issue as if it was black-and-white. Depending on the intersection of FISA, the authorization to use force, and the inherent powers of the President, this situation could fall into any of the three cateories.
I have a question for the people pointing to the "all necessary force" language in the AUMF:
Did that bill give the president the authority to cut off the hand of every redhead in Michigan, if he declared it to be in the interest of National Security?
There's not some squishy, "reasonable" middle ground here where wiretaps were unlawful but not criminal.
Heh-heh. Unlawful, but not criminal, that's good. I suppose one could make that argument if no criminal penalty was specified for breaking the law? Are you a criminal if you break a law with no criminal penalty attached?
I haven't paid much attention to the talking heads, but I get the feeling that Bush and Co. are trying to frame this in terms of the "importance" of the wiretapping, sidestepping the issue of how Bush set about doing it, i.e., whether he did it in a lawful manner or not. So you're either for wiretapping the evil-doers or you're against it, right?
Funny, anyone of you 'it's clear cut that bush broke the law' can actually take your case to someone in a position to act on your 'clear cutness' and do something about it. sorry, but 50 million folks saying it's clear cut one way and 50 million folks saying it's clear cut another way does not a clear cut case make. but i guess if you spend all day hanging out on this message board, it's 10 clear cut your way and 1 clear cut the other way so you just think you have it nailed.
Did that bill give the president the authority to cut off the hand of every redhead in Michigan, if he declared it to be in the interest of National Security?
I think the answer to that question would be, "If we agree that such action was necessary for the defeat of the terrorists, then yes. If we don't agree that it was necessary for the defeat of the terrorists, then no." Which actually addresses my previous post. I guess the administration's argument is that the language of this bill (thanks for reminding me of it, joe) somehow supercedes the FISA protocols. Could that make any sense?
"There is no controlling legal authority that says this was in violation of law."
-- Al Gore
yessiryeeee,
Ultimately, one can make that very same point about any issue imagineable. But since this is an open forum, please feel free to tell us why we're wrong rather than just ridicule us for...what again? You might find we'll actually respond to a well reasoned argument. You probably won't change our minds (how often does any opinionated adult change his mind from one argument?), but you'll at least be able to engage us on the merits of your argument, if you actually try.
I think it is pretty "clear cut" that anyone who thinks the President has the inherent authority to set aside each and every law, Constitutional provision, and international treaty that he (and he alone) sees fit either left school prior to third grade or is a lickspittle apparatchik of a President who claims powers that would make kings blush (including the one we fought a war of revolution against). Every case cited by the apologists refers to areas where there is "no controlling authority" (to use a quaint phrase from an era where political fundraising and blowjobs were the worse things happening in the White House), unlike the case here (where FISA controls). Every pre-Bush example of warrantless searches cited by the apologists involved physical searches that at the time were not covered by FISA (we can debate as a side issue whether those searches were "right" but they are not relevant to the issues at hand). IF the administration had a good reason, we'd have heard it by now. They've had weeks (or over a year since knowing the NYT had the story) to get their talking points together. The fact that the best they have are a bunch of cases that a first-year lawyer wouldn't be dumb enough to cite and some non-analogous analogies to the dread Slick Willy tells you everything to know about whether there is a cogent argument for legality. There ain't.
I have a question for the people pointing to the "all necessary force" language in the AUMF:
To me, the (argued) implied intent of Congress in the AUMF is superseded by the intent of Congress in the FISA. FISA explicitly restricts Presidential conduct, which indicates Congress wants some conduct prohibited or limited. AUMF has a broad grant, but it was passed after FISA, so it seems that without an explicit override, FISA still controls any grant given in the AUMF.
I admit that assuming Congress is a rational creature and knows about prior legislation is a big one, but it's commmonly done by courts.
As for FISA being unconstitutional, I dunno. Ask Orin Kerr.
Joe:
As a journalist, I'm not holding my breath on the whole paying-estate-tax thing.
Out of curiosity, if the "terrorist surveillance program" stumbled across information pertaining to drugs/drug smuggling or hell, any other crime, what would happen to that information?
"To me, the (argued) implied intent of Congress in the AUMF is superseded by the intent of Congress in the FISA."
Especially since FISA already includes specific language dealing with the authority for warrantless searches during wartime. See 50 U.S.C. sec. 1811:
Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress.
Thus, generously assuming the AUMF has the effect of a declaration of war, it still cannot override FISA without express authorization from Congress, i.e., Congress can't inadvertently amend FISA by declaring war.
The constitution expressly forbids Congress intervening in the President's authority to defend the country (Article II). As long as Bush continues to portray these wiretaps as necessary in wartime, then there is really not a whole lot anyone can do about it, FISA court or no, because Bush has a very strong constitutional leg to stand on. If these powers have only been used to trace communication between Al Q types and their contacts in the U.S., I personally have no problem with it.
If it is being used to round up meth dealers and pornographers, then I have a serious problem with it.
I don't understand why it's such a hindrance and pain to ask the FISA court for a warrant. Aren't these judges compliant, pushovers anyway?
The NSA leakers seem concerned that there was no oversight and pretty much an open invitation to abuse power. As far as I can tell, the argument on the other side is that Bush is right no matter what and to question anything he does is to be "partisan."
It's kinda odd that the government hadn't been engaged in warrantless domestic spying before 9.11 - as far as I know - and then starts doing even though Congress didn't spell it out in the Patriot Act or elsewhere.
How ironic would it be if some future Democratic administration comprised of corrupt, hard-ball players like LBJ or Kennedy, destroyed the Republican opposition via warrantless domestic spying. I'd pay to see that and laugh my ass off.
I don't understand why it's such a hindrance and pain to ask the FISA court for a warrant. Aren't these judges compliant, pushovers anyway?
The NSA leakers seem concerned that there was no oversight and pretty much an open invitation to abuse power. As far as I can tell, the argument on the other side is that Bush is right no matter what and to question anything he does is to be "partisan."
It's kinda odd that the government hadn't been engaged in warrantless domestic spying before 9.11 - as far as I know - and then starts doing even though Congress didn't spell it out in the Patriot Act or elsewhere.
How ironic would it be if some future Democratic administration comprised of corrupt, hard-ball players like LBJ or Kennedy, destroyed the Republican opposition via warrantless domestic spying. I'd pay to see that and laugh my ass off.
As a journalist, I'm not holding my breath on the whole paying-estate-tax thing>/i>
You'll always have to pay the fourth-estate tax.
"The constitution expressly forbids Congress intervening in the President's authority to defend the country (Article II). "
Umm... no. It doesn't. Anywhere.
As a journalist, I'm not holding my breath on the whole paying-estate-tax thing.
Do some articles on how promising gene therapies are and how all genetically modified foods, present and future, have been proven safe. That might improve your economic fortunes somehow. Definitely worth a shot.
If these powers have only been used to trace communication between Al Q types and their contacts in the U.S., I personally have no problem with it.
But the President is claiming that he doesn't have to tell anyone what he is using the wiretaps for. And it seems like that's the point. Last night on the Newshour, AG Gonzales claimed that "operational difficulties" made the Prez avoid the FISA court. But that operational difficulty could not have been time, since the FISA procedure does not make you wait. So it was something else, but Gonzo refused to give any details about what those "difficulties" were. One possibility: the wiretaps are being used in a way that would be rejected by the FISA court, e.g. for things unrelated to Al Qaeda. It seems simple enough: if the FISA court won't let you do it, just do it without the FISA court.
Gonzo tried to calm fears by pointing out that the wiretap program was "limited." I wanted Mr Lehrer to ask him "Limited by whom?" but he never did.
The constitution expressly forbids Congress intervening in the President's authority to defend the country (Article II). As long as Bush continues to portray these wiretaps as necessary in wartime, then there is really not a whole lot anyone can do about it, FISA court or no, because Bush has a very strong constitutional leg to stand on.
Utterly false. In addition, by its very nature, the Fourth Amendment supercedes Article II.
I don't see much point in quibbling about the specific laws here. The real question is whether any branch should be able to exercise a power that is neither clearly defined nor adequately checked. If Mexican stormtroopers were pouring into Texas, well, maybe I'd understand the need for the "commander in chief" to take immediate steps that might be somewhat questionable under the Constitution (because of the need to act quickly, not because of some vague "inherent power" of the executive). But I have yet to hear a compelling case for why the FISA had to be circumvented, and with all possible respect towards the victims of terrorism, this threat is too vague and too uncertain to justify any Constitutional end runs. Preventing terror attacks is hugely important, but it doesn't justify yet another usurpation of authority by the federal government.
"Gonzo tried to calm fears by pointing out that the wiretap program was 'limited.' I wanted Mr Lehrer to ask him 'Limited by whom?' but he never did."
The media - proudly failing to ask screamingly obvious follow-up questions for over a century!
SR, limited by good taste.
The President was wrong to spy without warrants on domestic conversations. But on the other hand, the people attacking the President are accusing him of committing a crime, and that's mean.
Therefore, both sides are equivalent. No need to thank me; it's what I do.
Peter K. - I believe the reasoning on that score is that the Administration feels that FISA is an unacceptable constraint on presidential authority (see Cheney et al); to seek the court's approval for wiretapping would be to acknowledge that it has the right to be involved.
Whoever posted the Cathy Young "joke," for a joke to be funny, there has to be some kind of insight or sense of truth with a clever ability to present it -- oh, fuck it. Dude, you're not funny. Or insightful. If you have to practice being either, please do it in private.
I don't understand why it's such a hindrance and pain to ask the FISA court for a warrant.
Have you ever asked for a FISA warrant? I understand its a little harder than applying for a new credit card.
Plus, there is the [unknown] nature of the program at issue here. If we are intercepting and archiving lots of communications, but only going back and looking at the ones of interest (after we have figured out which ones they are), then I don't think its possible to get warrants for every single communication in the database.
In addition, by its very nature, the Fourth Amendment supercedes Article II.
True enough. The question is whether these intercepts are a "search and seizure" subject ot Article II. If they are not part of a criminal investigation, but are instead an incident to the conduct of war, then they no more require a warrant than a soldier taking a prisoner of war.
The constitution expressly forbids Congress intervening in the President's authority to defend the country
Google is your friend (unless you are the DoJ), you should be able to find in two clicks that not only is this not true, it's actively wrong:
Art I, Sec 8.
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
. . .
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
. . .
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
As far as the "express limitations" of art. Sec. 9, nary a one even colorably concerns war or defense.
FYI: Gonzales' comments, including his read on the Youngstown Steel case:
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/speeches/2006/ag_speech_0601241.html
The gist is that: "It has long been recognized that the President?s constitutional powers include the authority to conduct warrantless surveillance aimed at detecting and preventing armed attacks on the United States. Presidents have uniformly relied on their inherent power to gather foreign intelligence for reasons both diplomatic and military, and the federal courts have consistently upheld this longstanding practice."
Further, he argues that FISA can't constitutionally constrain wartime powers of the executive to be less than the level set by the court's "consistent" upholding of warrantless wiretapping.
Finally, he argues that the Use of Necessary Force Act eliminates conflict between FISA and the Executive by superceding it in this case. He argues that because of the former, the prez is acting in accorance with the highest level of authority proposed in Youngstown Steel - that of powers granted or approved by the Congress.
Note to spell checkers --
As my German-born torts professor used to rail at us: "Zere are no z's in zuperzeded!!"
Rafuzo-So what?
Just wondering, but if as the article says there's definately no law being broken, then where is there room for reasonable people to disagree? If there was no illegal activity, then the President didn't overstep his bounds, end of story.
It's so funny to watch the contortions when somebody tries to defend the indefensible.
"Terrorist surveillance program" is a redefinition for cheesy pr purposes, but unless I'm mssing something about what actually was going on with this thing, so is descibing it as "domestic spying".
My understanding of what has happened ia that NSA is keeping tabs on the communications of foreign agens outside the US. Such surveillance requires no warrants. These people call or receive calls from people in the US. The person outside the US is the target of the surveilance, not the person within our borders. That in fact, the government has no idea who might be on the US side of the communication unless the government is listening in without a warrant on that person? Am I misinformed about what has been taking place?
What are we really talking about here?
If I'm not wrong, does a citizen or alien resident of the USA have a right to expect that a communication with a suspected foriegn agent not be eavesdropped in on by the US government?
Also, as I understand it, the 4th amendment mostly applies to criminal investigations. Is the point of this surveillance to develop criminal eveidence for use in trial or is it to collect intelligence in order to foil a terrorist plot?
If I'm not wrong, does a citizen or alien resident of the USA have a right to expect that a communication with a suspected foriegn agent not be eavesdropped in on by the US government?
Yes, they do have the right to expect that. In order to tap any phone within the US, they have to get a warrant from the court set up to oversee FISA cases. Without that warrant, they cannot listen to American citizens, period. That's the issue; if they were talking to suspected terrorists, then the government would have probable cause for a warrant, which would mean that there would be no reason to go behind the court's backs. This fact raises the question of why they feel the need to do so if these are in fact suspected terrorists.
In order to tap any phone within the US, they have to get a warrant from the court set up to oversee FISA cases
'They' in this sentence referring to the government, in case the overuse of pronouns made it confusing.
Shem:
My understanding is they are not tapping the phone on the US side, but on the foreign side (which DOES NOT require a warrant). Do you believe that this is wrong? If it is not, why do you believe it is necessary to get a warrant to monitor the communication at all. Secondly, how does the government get a warrant on the US side of the communication when it does not know beforehand who the foreign agent is talking to, and may not know the exact identity of that person after the communication is over?
MJ--
They are tapping on this side of the water, apparently, hence all the references to telecommunications companies providing access to their switches and nodes here in the US.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, if what they were doing was truly listening in on Americans talking to foreign terrorists, there would not be a court in all the US, let alone the FISA court, that would not grant a warrant so fast it would make your head spin. Their story is absurd on its face, creating the presumption that they are lying their asses off. And given the pattern of abuses this administration has engaged in, that presumption is pretty damn solid.
Secondly, how does the government get a warrant on the US side of the communication when it does not know beforehand who the foreign agent is talking to, and may not know the exact identity of that person after the communication is over?
The warrants can also be attained retroactivly for up to 72 hours. All they have to do is go to the FISA court and say: "We found this by accident, it's terrorist chatter, it happened in the States. Give us a warrant" and the FISA court will. Not a single one of these justifications stands up to scrutiny.
MJ,
If I can jump in here...
When the government gets a wiretap warrant from a court as part of a criminal investigation, they have to, as the Constitution tells us, describe the place and person to be "searched." The warrant authorizes them to "search" - that is, listen in on the phone calls of - Fat Lou Calabresi, to the extent that such calls are relevant to their investigation. If Fat Lou's phone rings, and it's his mother-in-law, bugging him about when he's going to come over and install her storm windows, the cops are legally required to hang up and stop listening. They do not have the right to listen in on the innocent woman - only on Fat Lou and his accomplices in crime.
Kudos to Reason for standing up for the rule of law. It's shocking how many people *claim* to be libertarians, yet support an imperial president.