Halliburton: We Don't Love That Dirty Water

Officials of Halliburton's KBR subsidiary, in charge of water quality in occupied Iraq and Kuwait, claim that for a time last year they were supplying Camp Junction City in Ramadi with water whose "level of contamination was roughly 2x the normal contamination of untreated water from the Euphrates River." The Marines stationed there did have bottled water for drinking, though the bad water was apparently used to make coffee, and another KBR employee reports "numerous instances of diarrhea and stomach cramps," says the AP report. Halliburton says it ain't so. This Guardian report has further details.

Comments

[SR]

Why do people with diarrhea and stomach cramps hate America?

[al-standells]

Yeah, down by the river
Down by the banks of the river Tigris
That’s where you’ll find me
Along with lovers, muggers, and thieves
Well I love that dirty water
Oh, Baghdad, you’re my home

[Eddy]

So much for free markets.
[psspssp] What?…Really?!
[pssppsspsspspps] Ohh!
Never mind, move along.
Nothing to see here.

[Jamie Kelly]

SR, that’s the goddamned funniest thing I’ve read in 5.62 years.

[Jamie Kelly]

On the musical note al-standells:

Dirty bottoms,
dirty bottoms,
talk about shit stains,
my soldier’s got ’em

[amazingdrx]

Yep industry self regulation. One of your very best causes oh corporate friendly libertarians.

We civil libertarians are not so thrilled with it however.

Now go drink some sewage to show US how it won’t hurt our troops,you corporatist apologists.

Can’t wait to hear the excuses on this one. It was Clinton’s fault, am I right? Hehey.

[amazingdrx]

“funniest thing I’ve read in 5.62 years”

I gotta agree, hehehehehey.

SR you da man.

[Cyrano]

So there’s a free market for drinking water companies, not just one company picked by the military? Glad to hear it, amazingdrx. You’ve really got a point then.

[io1029]

Yeah, soldiers and those we fight “for” usually get screwed over pretty well.

amazingdrx:
Regulating what exactly? How would gov’t regs change what was going on out there? The water was supposed to be clean, no?

I think the Marines should get to fire KBR and bring in somebody who gets the job done right.

[Shem]

I think the Marines should get to fire KBR and bring in somebody who gets the job done right.

But…then it wouldn’t be cronyism.

[io1029]

Shit, silly me. I’ll never get my degree in economics if I can’t understand something as simple as that!

[Eryk Boston]

I’m sorry to point this out but military coffee will give you stomach cramps even when made from perfect water.

[The Real Bill]

amazingdrx,

Methinks you have zero understanding of free-market economics. What, do you think it implies that there is no such thing as a civil justice system?

[Walter E. Wallis]

Raw sewage entering the stream within two miles of the intake? In an ideal world this would be prohibited, but there’s a war on. Just double the chlorine. I question the veracity of this report – there is no benefit to the company in violating standards.

[thoreau]

I’m shocked–shocked!–that a government contractor delivered inferior quality.

[amazingdrx]

“Can’t wait to hear the excuses on this one”

I knew it! A laff riot, thanks all. Hehehey.

You wacky wing nuts.

[jf]

Please don’t feed the trolls. amazingdrx will go away if ignored.

[b-psycho]

Well they had to have SOMEWHERE to pull all that horseshit…

[b-psycho]

*put* I meant.

[Dave W.]

Amazingdoctorareex:

These commenters, it was recently explained to me, are “miniature anarchists.” That means that they are libertarians about all gov’t activity except military, which is vitally needed or everyone dies. Sure its cowardly, but ya can’t prove’em wrong! Its a cush racket.

[Golldie]

Sorry to ruin all your fun, but what we have hear are three individuals who left KBR on unfiendly terms and are trying to get money out of them. I am a peopnw how actually does the testing of the water. Unfortuantely it is cleaner than the stuff coming out of my tap back in the states. And we have enough records kept here to choke a horse,

[Golldie]

Sorry to ruin all your fun, but what we have hear are three individuals who left KBR on unfiendly terms and are trying to get money out of them. I am a peopnw how actually does the testing of the water. Unfortuantely it is cleaner than the stuff coming out of my tap back in the states. And we have enough records kept here to choke a horse,

[Golldie]

Sorry to ruin all your fun, but what we have hear are three individuals who left KBR on unfiendly terms and are trying to get money out of them. I am a peopnw how actually does the testing of the water. Unfortuantely it is cleaner than the stuff coming out of my tap back in the states. And we have enough records kept here to choke a horse,

[Dave W.]

Sorry to ruin all your fun, but what we have hear are three individuals who left KBR on unfiendly terms and are trying to get money out of them. I am a peopnw how actually does the testing of the water. Unfortuantely it is cleaner than the stuff coming out of my tap back in the states. And we have enough records kept here to choke a horse,

are you saying that you, Golldie, are on friendly terms with KBR and still do get money from them?

[Jennifer]

three individuals who left KBR on unfiendly terms

I agree.

[jf]

And we have enough records kept here to choke a horse,

And? I bet the rest of that sentence is killer, but I may never know 🙁

[SR]

“SR, that’s the goddamned funniest thing I’ve read in 5.62 years.”

Thank you, I try!

[joe]

“I question the veracity of this report – there is no benefit to the company in violating standards.”

Well, there’s the money and effort they save in not addressing the problem quickly. Obviously, this would be outweighed by the loss of business (in a free market) or enforcement activities by the government (if there was strong oversight). But the former is obviously not the case, and KBR apparently felt safe enough from the latter to let this slide.

[independent worm]

Actually I’m not sure this is a failure of the “free market system”.

It’s more like a failure of the “Lets Use No-Bid Contracts to Funnel Billions of Dollars of Taxpayer Money to Our Cronies and the Company We Used to Be The CEO Of” system.

[fyodor]

Government no-bid contractors have more incentive than government agencies to hold down internal costs, but that’s about it. Otherwise they have about as much to do with the free market as the Division of Motor Vehicles.

[Halliburton]

Let them drink wine.

[Jennifer]

Deliberately reducing the combat effectiveness of soldiers in a war zone could be grounds for charges of treason. But I’m not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

[fyodor]

Jennifer,

I’m no lawyer, but I suspect it would be difficult to prove that the motive was to diminish the military’s fighting capability.

[independent worm]

Deliberately reducing the combat effectiveness of soldiers in a war zone could be grounds for charges of treason.

Oh come on, we all know the only way to commit treason is to criticize the President!

[Jennifer]

I’m no lawyer, but I suspect it would be difficult to prove that the motive was to diminish the military’s fighting capability.

Motive doesn’t matter; results do. People who, for example, sell secrets to the enemy aren’t able to avoid charges of treason because their motive was merely to make money, not to undercut our own security.

[Captain Holly]

water whose “level of contamination was roughly 2x the normal contamination of untreated water from the Euphrates River.”

So the total coliform count per mL was 200, instead of 100? Dear God! How ever will we survive?

Here’s a hint to the non-microbiologists out there: A two-fold difference in the number of bacteria is peanuts. It’s not even significant. Adequate chlorination will take care of most of it.

To really be a problem, the difference has to be in log cycles, meaning 10, 100, and 1,000-fold differences. You’d be surprised how often your municipal water supplier has a 2-fold increase in bacteria.

I have found that when liberals hear the word “Haliburton”, they react similarly to Miracle Max, when his wife said “Humperdink” out loud (obscure cultural reference for the day). It’s kind of a magical power word, a shibboleth embodying all that is evil and wrong with the Bush Administration. They hear it and instantly lose all capacity for logic and reason.

[Jennifer]

Here’s a hint to the non-microbiologists out there: A two-fold difference in the number of bacteria is peanuts. It’s not even significant.

It was apparently significant enough to cause gastrointestinal problems for the soldiers. Maybe they would have stopped puking if only someone had explained to them that the amount of bacteria in their bellies was too small to matter.

[joe]

That’s great, Captain, except that the level was not “2X military standards for drinking water.”

It was 2X the level of untreated water from the sewage-infused Euphrates River.

YOU drink some untreated water from the Euphrates River, and let us know how your tummy feels 36 hours later. Go’head. You first.

[mediageek]

“are you saying that you, Golldie, are on friendly terms with KBR and still do get money from them?”

I love how Dave W. operates:
If someone makes a comment on something, it’s just idle speculation (unless it’s his comment, which is delivered from Almighty God via a couple of winged, ethereally-lit angels who have the truth engraved on a chunk of solid gold sitting on a silver platter.)

But if someone who actually has some insight from personal experience with the topic at hand shows up, then they are obviously on the take, and nothing they say can be taken at face value, and their motives (never their statements, mind you) are questioned in a veiled attempt to accuse the person of being a lawyer.

Dave W.: He makes his own reality.

[Jennifer]

I cannot believe this. Even something which should be obvious, like “it’s bad to give soldiers in a warzone drinking water infested with sewage” has apologists viewing it through a partisan lens.

[mediageek]

“…veiled attempt to accuse the person of being a lawyer.”

Freudian slip, I meant to say “liar” not “lawyer.”

[thoreau]

The 2x is not the point. The things that matter are:

1) They were hired to give clean water, and they didn’t.

2) The water that they gave was actually worse than untreated river water. Yeah, I know, 2x isn’t all that much worse, it’s really just comparable to the river. The fact remains that they took something bad and actually found a way to make it worse. Maybe not a lot worse, but worse. Which is quite an accomplishment.

[Jennifer]

Mediageek, in fairness to Dave W., had this been the first time Halliburton was accused of shenanigans overseas they’d be more deserving of the benefit of the doubt. But that is not the case.

[thoreau]

Even something which should be obvious, like “it’s bad to give soldiers in a warzone drinking water infested with sewage” has apologists viewing it through a partisan lens.

Maybe gaius marius was right…

[Jennifer]

Maybe gaius marius was right…

how so mr thoreau?

[thoreau]

when he said that we have descended into jacobinism, and are on the verge of imploding, ms. jennifer.

[mediageek]

“Maybe not a lot worse, but worse. Which is quite an accomplishment.”

Are you kidding? That’s standard operating procedure for the government.

Jennifer, please don’t misread my post as being an apologist for Halliburton. I’ve talked to one military fellow who went on at great length about the abysmal food served by Halliburton’s subsidaries to military folks.

I’m just pointing out that, quite frankly, Dave W. doesn’t really bring anything useful to the discussion.

Hell, he’s not even funny.

[Lowdog]

Ok, Halliburton is bad. That’s fairly clear. The fact that they’re over there mostly on no-bid contracts makes it even worse. That they obviously fucked up in this instance is also fairly clear.

But again, it’s not a failure of the market. There is no market when the only game in town got there through a gov’t contract. Let’s get that clear.

[Jennifer]

Meanwhile, the partisan apologists who are making excuses as to why giving shit-infested water to soldiers is no big deal are the same people who are ever-ready to say things like “Criticizing the administration means you hate our troops and hope we lose the war.”

Brains as twisted and one-sided as a goddamned Mobius strip, that’s what you’ve got.

[Dave W.]

But if someone who actually has some insight from personal experience with the topic at hand shows up, then they are obviously on the take, and nothing they say can be taken at face value, and their motives (never their statements, mind you) are questioned in a veiled attempt to accuse the person of being a lawyer.

Whoa there. Golldie said that we can’t believe the putative whistleblowers because of economic motivations and a sour relationship with KBR. It was in response to Golldie’s comment (which I quoted in my response to make the symmetry) I questioned Golldie’s economic motives and relationship with KBR. In other words, Golldie said those factors were relevant — I made a comment to get Golldie to see how those arguments could come back and bite him in the ass.

As far as who is telling the truth and who is lying here — I don’t know. That is what discovery is for. No answer, no pronouncement from Gog — just a solemn wish that discovery could be brought to bear on this suspicious, but perhaps harmless, situation.

[Corrections Dep't]

God, not Gog.

[Corrections Dep't]

and: –make the symmetry *obvious*–

[mediageek]

Dave, I’d be willing to give you a pass on it, except that this is exactly how you act in every friggin’ thread.

Hell, oftentimes a person doesn’t even need to be a direct insider regarding the topic at hand. Just having more information than anyone else is enough for you to go spinning off into some alternate universe.

For instance, when you repeatedly accused thoreau of being a shill for Big Agra.

Perhaps your adherence to “discovery” would be a pretty good thing if it actually had some semblance of rational thought and logical inquiry.

[joe]

mediageek, that’s just about the funniest Freudian slip I’ve ever seen.

[Dave W.]

Dave, I’d be willing to give you a pass on it, except that this is exactly how you act in every friggin’ thread.

Yes, I often try to look at people’s economic motivations. Golldie thinks it is a relevant factor in assessing somebody’s credibility and so do I. That is why I bring up economic motivations and the potential for secret economic motivations into some many discussions here — because it is so often relevant.

Hell, oftentimes a person doesn’t even need to be a direct insider regarding the topic at hand. Just having more information than anyone else is enough for you to go spinning off into some alternate universe.

Additional information is great. If Golldie gave me a link to view that horse-choking pile of Halliburton papers, then we would be discussing those now, instead of the whistleblower’s economic motives and Golldie’s. Golldie didn’t link those papers. His additional “information” is no information at all.

For instance, when you repeatedly accused thoreau of being a shill for Big Agra.

These were not my words. I have basically accused T. repeatedly of falling for the big lie that high fructose sweetner is proven safe and is unrelated to the diabetes explosion. I do not think that T. stands to gain economically if big agra does well. My accusations are apt. Your paraphrase of my accusations is faulty.

Perhaps your adherence to “discovery” would be a pretty good thing if it actually had some semblance of rational thought and logical inquiry.

You *don’t* want discovery here in this case, Mediageek? Why not — the whistleblowers here seem to be getting reasonable traction with their story. From what limited info we have, these circumstances seem like a good place for discovery, what with soldiers allegedly drinking more feces than they should and all when our tax monies have paid for them to drink fine water. Disagree on that?

[Jennifer]

C’mon, Joe. The slip about the whistleblowers having an “unfiendly” attitude was much, much better.

[Dave W.]

btw, T. once offerred to evaluate the scientific lit if I could collect it. It has taken me a while, but here it is:

http://www.google.ca/scholar?q=%22high+fructose%22+diabetes+scientific+study&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&edition=ca&sa=N&tab=ss&oi=scholart

Awaiting evaluation from scientist, T.

[thoreau]

That’s a long list, Dave W. Pick your favorite from among those studies and I’ll give whatever opinion I’m qualified to give.

[Dave W.]

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/5/774?ijkey=cJSxz0rjkfs9s&keytype=ref&siteid=ajcn

[Chicken Little]

Incoming! Hyperbole! Incoming!!

[Jennifer]

A corrupt company with close ties to the Vice-President is giving warzone soldiers drinking water infested with sewage, and Dave is bleating about the dangers of corn syrup.

Jesus wept, and Jennifer resorted to profanity.

[Captain Holly]

Before responding to your various comments, I’ll point out that the stories Brian linked to above omit several key details. The Salt Lake Tribune had a much more informative story on this yesterday (their website is currently down, but I’ll post the link when it gets back up). From it we learn that:

1) the water in question was chlorinated before use;

2) the water was not intended to be used for drinking;

3) there were no reports of any outbreaks of gastrointestinal illness to the base medical staff (prompting sinister insinuations of a “cover-up”); and

4) subsequent testing showed the water to be in compliance.

Really, as one who understands this stuff I can safely say this is one of the lamest smear attempts I’ve ever seen. But as I said previously, mention “Halliburton” to some people and they instantly freak out.

[Dave W.]

Dave is bleating about the dangers of corn syrup.

I didn’t bring up people’s economic motivations on this thread. Golldie did.

I didn’t bring up the cornsyrup flap on this thread. Mediageek did.

All I did is express symapthy to Jennifer that she is in condition to strip for money any more. That is all I was bleating about.

[Dave W.]

no condition *bleat, bleat*

[Captain Holly]

It was 2X the level of untreated water from the sewage-infused Euphrates River.

YOU drink some untreated water from the Euphrates River, and let us know how your tummy feels 36 hours later. Go’head. You first.

The Euphrates is a big river. The fact that it’s untreated doesn’t necessarily mean it will be dangerous.

In fact, I’d daresay most people here, if they’ve ever swam in a lake or river, have ingested “contaminated” water. Some will get sick; most will not. It all depends on the level of contamination, and even if there’s a discharge of raw sewage 2 miles upstream the dilution factor would probably be enough to render it harmless.

That’s because for the average person, swallowing hundreds or even thousands of coliforms are not that big of a deal. You do it every day, especially if you eat a salad. So the fact that there was a temporary spike in the coliform count is largely irrelevant. It happens all the time, even in water systems that aren’t run by Halliburton.

[amazingdrx]

“Jesus wept, and Jennifer resorted to profanity.”

Hehehehey, it’s even funnier watching you try to argue with them jen.

A hopeless cause is the only one worth fighting!

[Jennifer]

All I did is express symapthy to Jennifer that she is in condition to strip for money any more. That is all I was bleating about.

Now what the hell are you talking about?

That’s because for the average person, swallowing hundreds or even thousands of coliforms are not that big of a deal. . . In fact, I’d daresay most people here, if they’ve ever swam in a lake or river, have ingested “contaminated” water. Some will get sick; most will not.

Then why were the soldiers getting sick, Holly? Either the water they got was indeed bad for them, or the soldiers all a bunch of wussies whose stomachs are far more sensitive than the stomach of the “average” person. Which do you think it was?

[Captain Holly]

1) They were hired to give clean water, and they didn’t.

Neither does your water company. There are always fluctuations in coliform levels, which is why your water company tests treated water regularly to detect them. If you’re going to claim incompetence because one test showed higher than expected levels of coliforms then I doubt any municipal water supplierin the US would pass.

2) The water that they gave was actually worse than untreated river water. Yeah, I know, 2x isn’t all that much worse, it’s really just comparable to the river. The fact remains that they took something bad and actually found a way to make it worse. Maybe not a lot worse, but worse. Which is quite an accomplishment.

I admit I don’t have all the facts here, but from what I read they had a temporary spike in numbers of coliforms. Big deal, happens all the time. The employees notified their supervisors, as they were supposed to.

There’s also a question about whether these are just coliforms or fecal coliforms. Coliforms are an ubiquitous family of bacteria; everyone is exposed to them regularly. Fecal coliforms are those found only in shit, and are a clear indication of sewage in the water.

Now I will assume that they’re talking about fecal coliforms, since they mention the potential upstream sewage discharge. But if they’re talking only about coliforms, then this “controversy” is even lamer than I had originally thought.

[amazingdrx]

A “free” market in water?

By the time soldiers got sick, did some enterprising “Milo Minderbender” get a hold of a $40 ceramic hand pump filter and sell the Halliburton sewage to his fellow troops after rendering it safe?

For a few bucks a gallon? Let US hope so.

Small business, the only real competitive capitalism left!!

If you know anyone serving in Iraq, send them these hand pump water filters… to distribute for profit or charity.

http://www.thebackpacker.com/gear/water_filters/

The pentagon has just ordered body armor for the troops! Meanwhile families have been supplying their loved ones in Iraq with body armor on their own since the start of the war.

[Captain Holly]

Then why were the soldiers getting sick, Holly? Either the water they got was indeed bad for them, or the soldiers all a bunch of wussies whose stomachs are far more sensitive than the stomach of the “average” person. Which do you think it was?

From what I have read, there is no record of outbreaks of gastrointestinal illnesses on the base in that time period. And believe me, if there had been a major source of contamination in the water supply, it would have been obvious very quickly (think Cryptosporidia in Milwaukee in ’93).

FYI, people get tummy aches and diarrhea all the time. They usually attribute it to the last thing they ate, but it can be caused by all sorts of things. Unless you have an outbreak that points to a clear source, their “diarrhea and stomach cramps” could have been caused by any number of factors, including the water.

But without any epidemiological data, it’s all speculation.

[amazingdrx]

“…in (no?) condition to strip for money any more”

Now that’s (moronic, sexist, garbled, gibberisher) ad hominem!!

You know you are winning when they resort to that jen. Fight the power!

[Captain Holly]

As promised, here’s the link to the story:

http://www.sltrib.com/nationworld/ci_3428918

My personal take is that had any other company done this it wouldn’t be a controversy. But the Left has a peculiar obsession with Halliburton.

[joe]

Captain Holly,

“So the fact that there was a temporary spike in the coliform count is largely irrelevant.”

If you want to claim to be professional in the field of water treatment, and have people extend your comments the deference that that implies, you going to have to stop making egregious statements like this.

You admit that you don’t know what the levels are, but you can confidently state that the count is irrelevant, because consuming items with a very, very low count isn’t harmful?

Gads, I hope you’re not a “professional” in my city’s water department.

[mediageek]

“Yes, I often try to look at people’s economic motivations.”

No, once you’ve been soundly thrashed, that’s all you do.

[mediageek]

“Now what the hell are you talking about?”

Jennifer, I think he’s making a snide remark about your physical characteristics and/or age.

[Jennifer]

My personal take is that had any other company done this it wouldn’t be a controversy. But the Left has a peculiar obsession with Halliburton.

Yes, Holly, left-wingers have no problem with soldiers getting sick from contaminated drinking water; we just want to bring down Halliburton. That’s the only reason anybody is outraged by this.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, I think he’s making a snide remark about your physical characteristics and/or age.

I get the attempted insult, Mediageek; I’m just trying to figure out what the hell that has to do with any of the topics at hand.

[Inigo Montoya]

“You *don’t* want discovery here in this case, Mediageek?”

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Dave W.]

Well sometimes I link to scientific studies on Google. Other times I write high school science lessons on the limits of science. Sometimes I call for military cutbacks . . . and

no, it is not ALL I do.

[Jennifer]

Well sometimes I link to scientific studies on Google. Other times I write high school science lessons on the limits of science. Sometimes I call for military cutbacks . . .

But mostly, you just go completely off the point and wonder why so few people take you seriously.

[Dave W.]

I get the attempted insult, Mediageek; I’m just trying to figure out what the hell that has to do with any of the topics at hand.

It had this to do with it:

when you leave the topics at hand and start up with gratuitous insults, then you better be prepared to get as good as you give. Now let’s be back on track and put this mutual insult contest behind us. Deal?

[amazingdrx]

“the Left has a peculiar obsession with Halliburton”

Actually it’s just the reverse! And with tax dollars, violating the US constitution while they are at it!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965509/site/newsweek/

Pentagon spying for halliburton.

[Jennifer]

when you leave the topics at hand. . .

Said the man who introduced the topic of corn syrup to this thread.

[AnonCowherd]

Just to put a little perspective on this – I was with the US Army in Kuwait and Afghanistan over the last few years. The water situation should be the same for the troops in Iraq. All the water KBR supplies is clearly labeled NOT potable. It is used for showering, washing hands, etc. They even advise not to use it for brushing teeth – no rinsing and spitting. There is LOTS of bottled water available for drinking and brushing. The water is treated at it’s source then transported in water trucks, stored in local water bladders (thousands of gallons size) and pumped into storage tanks in the toilet/shower facilities. The water could easily pick up extra bacteria at any one of those intermediate storage points.

Hygiene is obviously a huge issue in those places, it’s critical to wash your hands, with soap, after using the bathroom or blowing your nose (or any of a dozen other typical activities that expose you to nasty bugs). Not washing quickly leads to the gastric problems (as well as other problems).

Since the KBR folks use the same water as the troops, I can’t see them deliberately being lax with water treatment, but it would be possible to have contamination problems through normal use (or negligence).

[Dave W.]

completely off the point

I go off-message a lot, cause I am not a big believer in staying on message for any group.

No, I don’t go off topic. Sometimes I do get taken off topic by comments from other posters, which is exactly what happened in this here thread. I don’t mind going off topic if other people want to bring up other subjects, but I am not going to sit here and get blamed when that happens.

[amazingdrx]

Under the reign of corporatism the state merges with the corporate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

No way to take the neo-“rat” out of “corpo..RAT..ism”.

Darth Cheney poisoned US troops, it’s exactly that simple.

[Dave W.]

you repeatedly accused thoreau of being a shill for Big Agra. . . . Comment by: mediageek at January 24, 2006 11:52 AM

Eat it Jen-Dog!

[Lowdog]

Jennifer said: “But mostly, you just go completely off the point and wonder why so few people take you seriously.

Hahahah! That’s what I’m screechin’, my fair lady.

Even if Halliburton fucked up, what’s the point? That they shouldn’t be getting no-bid contracts? Ok, fine, now what?

I just don’t even really see what’s being argued here.

[Jennifer]

Sometimes I do get taken off topic by comments from other posters, which is exactly what happened in this here thread.

Uh-huh. It is never something you did. How have you survived so long, what with the whole world out to get you?

[Jennifer]

Even if Halliburton fucked up, what’s the point? That they shouldn’t be getting no-bid contracts? Ok, fine, now what? I just don’t even really see what’s being argued here.

Well, I’ve heard people argue before that Halliburton deserves certain no-bid contracts because they are the only ones capable of performing certain jobs. Which may be true in some cases, but not this one, for two reasons: one, they’re not the only American company capable of providing clean water, and two, they’re apparently doing a shitty (pun intended) job of it.

[Dave W.]

Even if Halliburton fucked up, what’s the point? That they shouldn’t be getting no-bid contracts? Ok, fine, now what?

Cut military spending way back so these issues don’t crop up as often. That is called the true libertarian solution to the problem.

[mediageek]

I like how theamazingdrx keeps proving Captain Holly’s point.

[Jennifer]

Another thing worth mentioning: mistakes happen even in the best of companies; I think the problem here isn;t the fact that soldeirs got contaminated water, but the fact that the company apparently knew about it beforehand and did nothing. That makes the distinction between malice and a mistake.

[mediageek]

Serendipitous, actually.

[Dave W.]

How have you survived so long, what with the whole world out to get you?

You are the one who insulted me here. Ergo, you are the one out to get me. T. was quite polite and reasonable and Mediageek . . . well, Mediageek tries real hard and I respect that. It is easy to deal with you by simply returning your verbal insults with my own. You will know better next time.

[Jennifer]

It is easy to deal with you by simply returning your verbal insults with my own. You will know better next time.

Yes, trying to insult my appearance sure as hell won you a lot of points here, didn’t it?

I am actually embarrassed for you.

[Dave W.]

Yes, trying to insult my appearance sure as hell won you a lot of points here, didn’t it?

with the people that matter, yes. with the crowd who thinks it unchivalrous to respond in kind to the insults of a woman, probably not. I think chivalry is dead and I am glad. You insult my intelligence, I insult your looks. That is how it works. That is what is fair here.

[Jennifer]

You insult my intelligence, I insult your looks.

In all seriousness, Dave: insults can indeed be effective in debates. But the insults in question have to be on-topic. Hence the difference between “Dave is bleating about corn syrup” versus “Jennifer is ugly.”

By the way, nobody criticized you for being “unchivalrous,” they criticized you for an off-topic ad hominem attack. Do you not see the difference? Probably not.

[Jennifer]

To put it another way, Dave: your intelligence or possible lack thereof is actually pertinent to the debate; my attractiveness or lack thereof is not. Get it?

[jf]

This wasn’t drinking water. Still nasty to be showering/laundering with it, but it’s still not being given to our soldiers to drink.

[amazingdrx]

Beauty is intrinsic you idiots, and jen has got that in spades.

Who exactly is energizing the pathetic chatroom you wing nuts have turned this place into?

Without her input this venue is dead.

[Jennifer]

Drx, I appreciate it, but seriously–my appearance has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. If Dave wants to call up that old thread where mine and other poster’s photos were posted, he is welcome to do so and call attention to any flaws of mine he perceives; thing is, though, it won’t do a damn thing toward proving whatever the hell point he is trying to prove.

[mediageek]

Dave W.: No corn syrup added, now with 50% more misogyny!

“Who exactly is energizing the pathetic chatroom you wing nuts have turned this place into?”

You seem to be over-using the term “wingnut.” The amazingdrx, everyone. He’s this thread’s Anger Fluffer.

[Jennifer]

Oh, fuck it, I’ll do it myself:

http://www.panix.com/~jdw/h+r/all.html

Sample dialogue:

JEN: Dave needs to stop bleating about corn syrup on this thread.

DAVE: Oh, yeah? Well, Jennifer’s eye makeup is smudged in one of those photos! Take that!

[Dave W.]

O contraire Jennifer. Whether I was bleating or not had no bearing on the issues at hand. It was just your way of telling everybody that I am a sheep, which I am not. Once you start with the insults, you don’t get to play chivalry. You insult me; then I insult you. You refrain from insulting me; I refrain from insulting you. It is that simple.

[mediageek]

Dave:

You’re a fuckwit.

Cheers,
mediageek

[amazingdrx]

Yep, just the facts jen. It’s all that is needed.

Socrates ghost is around here somewhere…

[mediageek]

“Yep, just the facts jen. It’s all that is needed.”

Yeah, that and references to “Darth Cheney.”

[amazingdrx]

As usual, my ESP is always right on matters of inner beauty and it’s reflection in the real world.

Thanks for proving it once again jen!

Dave go fuck yourself. No one else will.

[Ed]

This thread is giving me the runs.

[Jennifer]

I truly was hoping to have a discussion of this tainted water business. On the other hand, this is a great allegory for why our country is completely fucked: because when facing matters of serious national importance, any debate degenerates into partisan hackery and off-topic ad hominems.

Ann Coulter is skinny. Michael Moore is fat. Bush looks like a chimp. Kerry looks like an oak tree.

[amazingdrx]

That’s Ann Cuntler. You spelled it wrong.

[Jennifer]

Drx, name distortions are not helping.

[mediageek]

I can’t decide if drx’s comment about Ann Coulter is meant to be satire of the left, or is the real thing.

[amazingdrx]

Sorry, too hard to resist, no other venue would let me post it… bog (“clockwork orange” burgess speak) bless (civil) libertarianism!!!!

[Jennifer]

But what good does it do, Drx? In all of history, there has never been a single person who has said “I used to really admire Ann Coulter, but now that I’ve seen her name spelled Ann Cuntler I realize she’s actually a whackjob bitch.” If anything, it would turn off a person who might otherwise be prone to listening to legitimate reasons why she is, indeed, a whackjob bitch.

[amazingdrx]

“satire of the left, or is the real thing.”

Both..simultaneously.. confusing isn’t it?

Yes it is…for I am…an..agent of CHAOS!!

[mediageek]

You know, it’s hard to be an advocate for liberty on account of the fact that this means an innumberable amount of nitwits will exercise their freedoms in an utterly banal manner.

[mediageek]

“Yes it is…for I am…an..agent of CHAOS!!”

50% witty.

[Jennifer]

There is no hope for the future of this country or mankind.

[amazingdrx]

” it would turn off a person who might otherwise be prone to listening to legitimate reasons why she is, indeed, a whackjob bitch.”

Yep you are right.

But the ways of chaos are mysterious.

http://homepages.compuserve.de/Mostral/spinrad/02.html

[Jennifer]

Nope, no hope at all.

[amazingdrx]

“no hope for the future ”

That’s just winter talking, spring is only a few months away.

Drx prescribes some powerful, natural endorphins. Jump in an icehole.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/Photos/_archives/2005/2/24/369560.html

[amazingdrx]

“..big birds flyiiing across the sky.. leave us ho..opeless..hopeless, hopeless..”

[Siegfried]

KAOS is better zan chaos.

[amazingdrx]

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequites of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he that shephards the weak from the valley of darkness for he is truly his brother’s keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know my name is the lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

[Jennifer]

Maybe these last few posts would make sense if I were on drugs. But no, I’m sober. And staying that way for the foreseeable future. And the meaning shall ever thus elude me.

[Dave W.]

off-topic ad hominems

Then don’t call people sheep, especially people who take pride in *not* acting like sheep. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem — and the one part that you yourself can fix.

[amazingdrx]

That’s a shame.

[Jennifer]

Dave, go back to insulting my appearance and telling yourself it’s an effective debating technique. You were actually marginally more effective then.

[Captain Holly]

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequites of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he that shephards the weak from the valley of darkness for he is truly his brother’s keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know my name is the lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

Somebody’s seen Pulp Fiction. How it is relevant to the current subject, I do not know.

Incidentally, for extra credit, does anyone know where that quote comes from?

[Qbryzan]

Ezekiel 25:17

[Dave W.]

Okay, Jennifer: if I am still a sheep then you are still losing your looks. Buh-bye.

[Jennifer]

Okay, Jennifer: if I am still a sheep then you are still losing your looks. Buh-bye.

I reckon this means Dave won this argument, huh?

[Dave W.]

It means that your insult insulted me and hurt my feelings. 10 posts down the thread, you don’t get this. Like your shit don’t stink somehow. It is not exactly a victory for me, but it is a better outcome than if I just sit there and take your insults like you seem to expect.

[Jennifer]

Hey, Dave! If you really want to make yourself look better in everybody else’s eyes, don’t forget to point out that twenty years from now, I’ll be old!

[Dave W.]

There will be better ways of hurting your feelings then, and if you keep insulting me, believe me I will find them.

[Jennifer]

It is not exactly a victory for me, but it is a better outcome than if I just sit there and take your insults like you seem to expect.

Sincere advice: by all means dish out insults after you’ve been on the receiving end of them; just make them relevant to the topic at hand.

It’s the difference between me saying “Dave needs to stop bleating about corn syrup” versus “Dave probably has a small dick.” The first one makes you look bad; the second one would have made me look bad. If you can figure out a way to insult my intelligence, or turn my own words against me, you’d’ve won a lot of points in this debate. But merely shouting “Jennifer is ugly” is barely one step up from an irate two-year-old shouting “Jennifer is a poopyhead!”

[amazingdrx]

http://www.slipups.com/items/781.html

“The two times Jules quotes Ezekiel 25:17, he quotes it slightly differently. Jules must have been reading one weird Bible, because the verse he quotes isn’t like any version in print.
I would like to add that Quentin Tarantino stated in an interview that he knew it wasn’t 100% correct, but they way he had written it enhanced the dramatic effect.”

Many have seen “the fiction”, but who else can quote it from memory while performing feats of strength (chaos)? (That’s a rhetorical question, discuss it amongst your various internal personalities wing nuts.)

[Dave W.]

The bleating thing is way off base because:

1. I didn’t bring cornsyrup into this thread. I don’t bring cornsyrup into the vast majority of threads where it is mentioned on this board. And you know that. And I know you know that.

2. My cornsyrup remarks on this thread was link(s) to scientific studies. (As requested on a previous thread and re-requested on this thread).

and

3. I ain’t no sheep any more than you are some dried up husk of a formerly pretty woman. My insult was ridiculous and hurtful because yours was. Those were the criteria: ridiculous and hurtful. Under those criteria, I did fine. Good symmetry, your not gettin’ it notwithstanding.

[amazingdrx]

“not gettin’ it ”

So you are saying you are “thenthitive”? Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

[Jennifer]

Have you any wool? Yes, sir, three bags full.

[mediageek]

So, to sum up:

The thread is off topic.

The amazingdrx is high.

Dave W. is crazy and pathetic.

Jennifer, as always, proves she can throw down with the best of them.

And, well, I’m just swell.

[amazingdrx]

Hehehey, just bleat duuuuuh..bya good faithbased sheople.

Your corporate daddy state will protect you. Gaaawd bless der fathe…er..homeland. We pledge our lives to SECURITY!

[amazingdrx]

Well geek.. “I’m high alright, but not on your false drugs. I’m high on a clean windshield and a full tank of powerful gasoline!” (Firesign Theater)

[Captain Holly]

I would like to add that Quentin Tarantino stated in an interview that he knew it wasn’t 100% correct, but they way he had written it enhanced the dramatic effect.

BingBingBing! We have a winner! Most people think the Bible actually says that. That, or they have no idea where to find the Book of Ezekiel.

I often use it as evidence for my contention that liberals, especially the Hollywood variety, either have no idea what the Bible says or they distort it for their own purposes. Useful for when someone trots out the tired old “cast the first stone” line.

[Jennifer]

I often use it as evidence for my contention that liberals, especially the Hollywood variety, either have no idea what the Bible says or they distort it for their own purposes. Useful for when someone trots out the tired old “cast the first stone” line.

Once again, Captain Holly proves that he can’t discuss anything without partisanship entering the picture. Yes, Holly, liberals are the only ones who are either ignorant of the Bible or distort it to serve their own purposes. No conservative has ever done such a thing.

By the way, what is tired about the line “let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” anyway? The world would be a less annoying place if the likes of Robertson and Falwell kept that in mind.

[amazingdrx]

http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/home.html#

Well capt howd..er holly…I like to bible these extremists when they stray too far from the true path.

Did you know jesus was a commie? It’s true (Paul Harvey voice)!

[amazingdrx]

Cleave thee to the path of the righteous on this issue of halliburton’s sewage cocktail for our soldiers,brethren.

“1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.”

“2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

http://christiananswers.net/bible/rev22.html#1

[amazingdrx]

“I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers”

[Captain Holly]

By the way, what is tired about the line “let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” anyway? The world would be a less annoying place if the likes of Robertson and Falwell kept that in mind.

It’s “tired” because it’s always used out of context, always used to silence some sort of moral criticism from the Right, and you never hear the subsequent “Go, and sin no more” line mentioned.

[Jennifer]

It’s “tired” because it’s always used out of context, always used to silence some sort of moral criticism from the Right, and you never hear the subsequent “Go, and sin no more” line mentioned.

Well, no, that’s because “go and sin no more” was said not to the person about the throw the stone, but to the person about to get stoned. Saying “go and sin no more” would therefore be out of context.

And once again–you’re being unnecessarily partisan. Yes, in your world it is only right-wingers who have Bible quotes thrown at them to demonstrate their hypocrisy; right-wingers never throw Bible verses around themselves. Nope. Nuh-uh.

[thoreau]

Wow, this thread degenerated. Spend one afternoon away from the desk, enjoying a very informal meeting to discuss future projects, and everything goes to hell.

A couple months ago I had asked Dave W. to find a peer-reviewed study for me to critique. He found one. He wasn’t claiming that corn syrup was relevant to the matter at hand, he was just like “Oh, thoreau’s here. Hey, thoreau, remember that thing I’d been promising to get back to you on? Well, here it is.”

I’ll get around to it, I promise.

[Captain Holly]

Well, no, that’s because “go and sin no more” was said not to the person about the throw the stone, but to the person about to get stoned. Saying “go and sin no more” would therefore be out of context.

(Since this thread was dragged off subject a long time ago, I won’t feel too guilty for responding.)

No, it wouldn’t be out of context, because the person who quotes the “He who is without sin” line is usually the one who is seeking to blunt criticism of his behavior.

If he truly cared about what Jesus taught, he would recognize he has fallen short, accept the validity of the criticism, and then seek to live a better life.

Instead, he’s using the Lord’s words to try to shut his opponent up.

I’ve seen and heard it used often by left-wingers, usually in debates about gay marriage or premarital sex. It’s a standard, pat response to any criticism of sexual mores.

[Jennifer]

I’ve seen and heard it used often by left-wingers, usually in debates about gay marriage or premarital sex. It’s a standard, pat response to any criticism of sexual mores.

Like the way Jesus first used it against those who would criticize an adulteress? It sounds especially valid against those who would criticize another person’s sex life.

Now if the comment were used against those who would criticize, say, serial killers, I’d agree with you. But using against sex critics is a perfect answer to the question What would Jesus do?”

[Eric the .5b]

Like the way Jesus first used it against those who would criticize an adulteress

No, like the way he used it against those who would put to death an adultress. As Holly pointed out, the story ends with Jesus telling the adultress to stop sinning.

[Trooper Jones]

Worst thread ever …

We had the same kind of water in Haiti, for showers and washing up. We drank bottled water. This sounds like a typical CYA situation. Sometimes it seems like we’re supporting the contractor not vice versa.

The problem with KBR is twofold. First they make an obscene amount of money for providing mundane services of mediocre quality. Second, the longer their use continues, the less able the Army is to support itself.

I don’t know if the Army actually saves money by not needing to have as many water purification, laundry and bath, construction, transportation, mess, etc. sections and units. I do know that the Army frees up equipment and manpower by using KBR.

The only problem with this model of outsourcing is if there is a major war. I don’t see KBR truckdrivers bringing fuel and ammo forward in the middle of a battle.

Still, this thread blows. I like mainly lurking and once in a while posting information and opinion of dubious value, but this kind of invective is boring. Bring back JB/GG!

[amazingdrx]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/24/science/24find.html?ex=1138251600&en=f0fd01f3b4829404&ei=5070

“Using M.R.I. scanners, neuroscientists have now
tracked what happens in the politically partisan brain when it tries to digest damning facts about favored candidates or criticisms of them. The process is almost entirely emotional and unconscious, the researchers report, and there are flares of activity in the brain’s pleasure centers when unwelcome information is being rejected.”

Yep sounds about right, bring on the endorphins!!

[Jennifer]

No, like the way he used it against those who would put to death an adultress.

So you think Jesus intend this to only apply in death-penalty cases?

[Stevo Darkly]

What a low-down dirty degenerate thread.

A day late, but for what it’s worth:

1) I tend to be a bit skeptical of this story, because I know too many people who go apeshit about anything related to corporations in general — “in their corporate buildings, being all corporationy” — and Hitlerburton in particular. And some of them write news stories. So I have no immediate reaction to the putative topic of this thread.

2) I hate to find myself on the same side as amazingdrx — Billy Ray’s evil twin from a mirror universe — on any matter, but …

3) Dave W., you’re being a dick.

4) And for whatever it’s worth, from what I can tell, Jennifer is still stripper-capable and has many years of hotness to come.

5) I rather enjoy Capt. Holly’s contributions to this forum.

Now I’m going to go wash up.

(With clean water.)

[amazingdrx]

“in their corporate buildings, being all corporationy” — and Hitlerburton …amazingdrx — Billy Ray’s evil twin from a mirror universe — on any matter….Dave W., you’re being a dick….Jennifer is still stripper-capable and has many years of hotness to come.”

Well said! (Were you knocking my mullet?)

[Matt Damon]

“in their corporate buildings, being all corporationy”

Matt Damon!

[wayne]

“The pentagon has just ordered body armor for the troops! Meanwhile families have been supplying their loved ones in Iraq with body armor on their own since the start of the war.”

Sorry, but I have to raise the BS flag here. Body armor has been issued to US troops since the beginning. There have been shortages, but the implication that the military is only just now getting around to issuing body armor is total BS, and it makes me question your honesty first and your intellect second.

[TheDumbFish]

Sorry, but I have to raise the BS flag here

Wayne,

Sorry, I have to raise a delay-of-BS flag here. On this thread, you are way behind in trying to question anyone’s honesty or intellect. I question your timing.

[amazingdrx]

Well I’ll admit exagerating.

A portion of US troops did have antiquated body armor.

A recent study of battle wounds indicated that 80% of csasualties in Iraq could have been avoided were the latest ceramic complete armor provided from the start of the invasion.

But the lack of the best availavle body armor all through the war has been a scandal. Many soldiers DID have their family’s buy the best available body armor for them, at great expense.

Due to the fact that the pentagon would not provide it. Full coverage ceramic plates, shoulder and side plates, the only armor that stops the ubiquitos ak-47 round, had not been even ordered by the rummi reoconman crew until now.

When asked about armor upgrades in a meeting with troops by a soldier in Iraq months ago, rummi replied that if one has your name on it armor can’t protect you.

How did the neorat rummi get from the airport to the green zone? In a specially armored halliburton vehicle.

That one VIP transport contract for chicken hawks like rummi would no doubt have payed for all the body armor upgrades for the whole force in Iraq.

“Under pressure to speed the delivery of armor to troops in Iraq, the United States Army has awarded an emergency contract for ceramic plates to protect the sides of soldiers’ torsos from insurgents’ attacks, military officials said yesterday.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/21/international/middleeast/21armor.html

BTW, where do you get your news that you hadn’t heard about this? FOX, Drug Limbaugh, nutsmax.com, drudge?

[wayne]

Correction to my prior post: I had not read the entire thread when I responded. Now that I have read the entire thread, I question neither amazingdrx’s honesty, nor intellect. He is simply an alien being.

I like Captain Holly’s contributions too (echo of Darkly). I think the Cap’t is right about Halliburton pushing the spasm/drool button on the left.

I don’t want to say anything bad about Dave, because I don’t think I can bear being called ugly. To be brutally honest, I was NEVER a stripper so if I have fallen from my original lowly state of beauty, then I am truly hideous today, and I certainly don’t want anybody to point that out in print.

Jennifer is a formidable opponent in a debate, and, after looking at the photos (thanks for the link, Jen), is pretty easy on the eyes as well. I have a fist full of dollar bills at the ready :-].

[wayne]

“Sorry, I have to raise a delay-of-BS flag here. On this thread, you are way behind in trying to question anyone’s honesty or intellect. I question your timing.”

Point taken. I am late to the discussion. I have been busy with life, what can I say? I will retract my BS flag because of my tardiness.

[Stevo Darkly]

Billy Ray … Well said! (Were you knocking my mullet?)

Ermm… Actually, I was comparing/contrasting you to another guy who used to post here from the opposite end of the political spectrum, in the Pithecanthropus sector…. It was a grievous insult, which I now feel bad about because of your gracious response.

[TheDumbFish]

Point taken. I am late to the discussion.

I had no point. I was just poking fun at the rest of this thread. I’m guessing that you didn’t read much of the travesty which is this thread before you made your comment. No, in your posts, surprisingly, you actually had something to say.

Not that I mind. This thread is as entertaining and dramatic as anything on the tube right now.

[amazingdrx]

Most depressing thread, on the most depressing day.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847012/

The model is: [W + (D-d)] x TQ
M x NA

The equation is broken down into seven variables: (W) weather, (D) debt, (d) monthly salary, (T) time since Christmas, (Q) time since failed quit attempt, (M) low motivational levels and (NA) the need to take action.

[amazingdrx]

Yes, that was my aim stevo.

For I am…an…agent of CHAOS!!

[wayne]

“I had no point.”

My apologies for mistaking your lack of a point for a point. I could go on, but it seems pointless.

Good night to you all. Amazingdrx, get thee into thy hyperbaric chamber.