All right, we'll call it a draw…
Notorious OBL has emerged from the shades with a groovy new audiotape explaining that he's finally got us right where he wants us. But he's willing to be merciful and call a truce, otherwise, God willing, you will see in your homes with horror as we take revenge on you for your crimes and you will be bitter and troubled as with God's permission we defend our dignity and then Thank God the handling-of-the-war approval rating of the Vietnam Butcher will continue to fall even if Inshallah there is an unexpected uptick in his overall job approval rating which ilhamdillah may be attributed to a better than expected shopping season for the birthday of the prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him), and so on and on, God willing.
A brief roundup of items:
Anonymous CIA official verifies that it is bin Laden (whatever that means).
United States rejects the offer unless bin Laden agrees to pay closing costs.
Excerpts from past bin Laden threats.
Islam's most productive dead leader also taunted us like a Frenchman just before the 2004 election.
Finally, he gives a substantial shoutout to William Blum's Rogue State. I've never read that book. Does it really contain a passage that reads: "If I were president, I would stop the attacks on the United States: First I would give an apology to all the widows and orphans and those who were tortured. Then I would announce that American interference in the nations of the world has ended once and for all." Or is bin Laden freely translating?
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Osama invokes the wrong god.
"In every generation they arise against us to destroy us and god saves us from their hands."
That one has worked for us for a few thousand years. I don't think he's willing to convert, though.
Hey, the best thing to come from this is an actual bit of unintentional truth coming from that dispicable turd, Scott McClellan's, mouth. In response to Osama's offer of a "truce", McClellan said that "the terrorists began this war, and we will end it, at the time and place of our choosing." Which h'aint far from the truth...they will end it when and where they want...which is, uh, never. Well, unless the welfare-warfare state finds an even better ephemeral bogeyman with which to scare the populace into agreeing to give up more and more of their money and freedoms. First it was the commies/cold war russians...now they got themselves a new scarecrow. Like they're just gonna wake up one day and say, "eh, you know, I think we'll finish the War on Terror today!" Tee Hee. Of course, Asshat McClellan didn't mean it to come across that way, he just wanted to sound like a big badass terrorist-whooping mahfukuh.
Hehe, and just this morning, I was watching last night's Daily Show, and they had a clip of McClellan calling the lawsuits against the wiretapping "frivolous". He's a piece of work, ain't he? Or, as Jon Stewart noted, a "Useful Tool".
"Does it really contain a passage that reads"
According to the Amazon.com "search inside" function, no.
BTW, bin Laden did a wicked job on driving up sales for Rogue State. Check the figures:
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #3,928 in Books
Yesterday: #205,763 in Books
SR: In that light, one cannot help but wonder whether Blum has access the the knowledge and equipment to professionally fake a Bin Laden tape...
I just got Blum's 'Killing Hope: A history of American military and CIA interventions since WWII' for my birthday. I also got the lone gunmen season 1 on dvd, did anybody watch that show? the pilot was about a gov't conspiracy to remotely control a passenger plane and fly it into the WTC!!!!!!!!
This reminded me of an interesting article/book review in spiked by sometimes Reason contributor Brendan O'Neill that explains how Bin Laden likes to pinch his speech ideas from Western intellectuals rather than Eastern religions:
Osama bin Laden: more media whore than guerrilla warrior
Bin Laden says that US withdrawal from Iraq would be part of a truce.
Is he trying to galvanize US public opinion in favor of remaining in Iraq? Cuz, honestly, there's no way in hell that the public will support withdrawal if Bin Laden's name is associated with it.
Is he trying to galvanize US public opinion in favor of remaining in Iraq?
Why not? Our being there is a great recruiting tool for him. I'm sure he's familiar with the concept of reverse psychology.
Jennifer-
What if he thinks that we think that he thinks that we think that....
How many Presidents would we have to go back to imagine easily defeating an OBL with laughter rather than the puckered-sphincter snickering of the current Prez?
I'm thinking Calvin Coolidge.
If I were president I would make the pop machine in the lunch room free.
Corning for president in 2008
Is he trying to galvanize US public opinion in favor of remaining in Iraq? Cuz, honestly, there's no way in hell that the public will support withdrawal if Bin Laden's name is associated with it.
computer animation man, computer animation...just look for a big check sent to Pixar signed by the NSA.
We were patient in fighting the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years and we bled their economy and now they are nothing.
holy shit...Osama won the cold war?!?!
this guys is worse then Al Gore.
That's what I'm thinking. I am thinking that any outrage that was against the NSA wiretap is going to fade in popularity.
back before the election i had the thought that it would be cool if kucinich got elected if only because, how could you seriously see him as an enemy. he might be a bit of a joke, but i doubt he would be seen as dangerous
We were patient in fighting the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years and we bled their economy and now they are nothing.
You mean that centrally planned economies would have worked if Bin Laden intervened?
Damn.
CORRECTION:
You mean that centrally planned economies would have worked if Bin Laden hadn't intervened?
I am seriously suspicious that Osama or even "Osama" (maybe they know he's dead and are using his name) is an administration operative. Right before the election he issues a warning not to vote for Bush. And now he says that if our government will pull out of Iraq, he won't hit us again. He can't be such an idiot as not to know that both of these warnings, coming from such a hated figure, did and will have the opposite effect and strengthen Bush's political position and his position vis a vis Iraq. Give me a break! I think we're being conned.
Think about 9/11. It turns out that our government's closest ally in the mid-East, the Israeli government, (the fact that they spy on us, notwithstanding) had prior knowledge of the attack. (There is not evidence that they participated in the attack.) Often in politics, when things aren't making sense, it's cuz governments are lying.
Rick-
That's a little paranoid even for me. More likely, Osama wants us in Iraq because it feeds some sort of apocalyptic fantasy of his.
That, and terrorists like situations with lots of killing and explosions. Kind of like neocons.
Oh no he di-int!
I am seriously suspicious that Osama or even "Osama" (maybe they know he's dead and are using his name) is an administration operative.
You can't be serious....
It turns out that our government's closest ally in the mid-East, the Israeli government, (the fact that they spy on us, notwithstanding) had prior knowledge of the attack.
Somebody please tell me this guy can't be serious.
Perhaps they captured Osama and are forcing him to issue timely statements which help the administration.
That the Israeli government had prior knowledge of 9/11 is well documented from many diverse sources:
http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php
Check out Justin Raimondo's careful study. It's journalism with scholarship:
Terror Enigma: 9/11 And the Israeli Connection
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595296823/reasonmagazinea-20/
The US responded with a policy statement, ``The United States does not negotiate with terrorists,'' which has about as much rhetorical punch as ``Closed on Holidays.''
Nobody elected me, but I'd have said, ``The United States does not negotiate with assholes,'' the point being to get it right.
thoreau,
Judging from his 9/11 Fawtwa and his "Letter to America",...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html
...I think the evidence is that Osama sincerely hates the effects that our government's actions have had and are having on Arab and Muslim folks.
Of course he would impose his own righteous tyranny. I wonder what, if any, say he had in the Taliban rule over Afghanistan.
You can't be serious...
Yeah I am cuz see if wasn't, I wouldnta said "I am seriously suspicious ..."
BTW, one time at some convention, I was on a panel with RU Sirius, cyberpunk guru and co-founder and original Editor-In-Chief of the first cyberculture magazine, "Mondo 2000." At one point during our panel, he mixed humor with a conjecture that I found untenable. I seized the opportunity to ask; "Seriously, are you serious, RU Sirius?"
"Nobody elected me, but I'd have said, ``The United States does not negotiate with assholes,'' the point being to get it right."
Actually an insult much more offensive to a Muslim would have been "shit-licking dogs." But I'm sure that the PC types would have found that to be "insensitive". And the diplomatic types would have found it beneath the stature of the government of a great country like the U.S. Personally I prefer plain English,....especially if I am insulting someone who speaks a different language. Less apt to be a mistake in the translation.
BTW, one time at some convention, I was on a panel with RU Sirius,
I know Ken, and no, he usually isn't.
In other news, while I don't buy the conspiracy theories, I do think that it is naive to assume that these sorts of public statements are not timed for effect. Compare the dates of past OBL commentary with political events. Grant me that he is at least a pretty savvy person, capable of persuasive speech and some amount of political machination. Given that, do you think the timing of these statements is entirely random?
Soudruh Barton,
This is why we don't agree. I just spent several hours reading your references and they add up to ...
Israelis spy on us ...
They were also spying on the terrorists ...
How could they not have know ...
They let it happen ...
No, they probably helped plan it ...
It all boils down to Carl Cameron's quote, "How could they not have known?"
Now that's conclusive!
If you were planning to fabricate a provocation to get a great power to make war on your enemies, would you use agents who arouse suspicions of DEA agents?
That's what I'm thinking. I am thinking that any outrage that was against the NSA wiretap is going to fade in popularity.
How fortuitous for the Administration. Again.
Aside from thoreau, this has to be one of the dumbest threads I've read in a while. A little tip for you all: if you drill a small hole in your head it will relieve the pressure, at least temporarily. Give it a try.
guys i dont know if you remember but Barton is the guy who pops in, insists he's a reasonable man, then runs a nonstop echo chamber of the same idiotic, 'it teh joos! they knew!' arguments, citing as his sole source of reasonableness the antiwar.com tinfoil hatters, in particular that Justin Raimondo dude, and repeating, 'there's LOTS of evidence!'... and pointing back to Raimondo as the "lots" part of it. (the shitty book has MANY pages!)
He's a broken record.
Osama, if you want a truce, and are really the MAN to negotiate that truce, then how about a sign of good faith to prove you have that power?
Get this journalist in Iraq released. Put up or shut up you murdering bastard.
Apparently the murdering neoconman bastards have released 6 female hostages of the 8 that you are demanding.
When will these cowardly krusaders and jihadists fight each other instead of picking on the innocent? Never have, never will.
Hopefully allah and jesus have reserved a special place in your respective hells for the lot of you.
Why has Osama become so camera shy? There can be only one reason; OBL is the Dread Pirate Roberts. After shorting the market prior to 9/11, he cashed in and is now in retirement in South France. Before leaving he passed on the reigns to his successor, who is still undergoing a series of operations.
Paranoid or not, we do know that OBL was at one point a US asset.
If nothing else, the guy continues to do Bush favors by sending in these tapes every time Bush gets in trouble at home (NSA wiretapping hearings to begin soon).
They say this cat Usama is a bad mother-
Shut your mouth!
I'm jus' talkin' 'bout Bin Ladin.
Then we can dig it!
If you actually listened to the whole tape, I think he said "Baba Booey" at the end.
UPDATE: Rogue State is now up to #53 on Amazon.com's book chart. That puts it ahead of the original novels for Brokeback Mountain (#56) and Memoirs of a Geisha (#72).
"A little tip for you all: if you drill a small hole in your head it will relieve the pressure, at least temporarily. Give it a try."
That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.
Go America! and Go Broncos!
1. OBL is not pulling a reverse psychology trick. It's uncharacteristic of military propaganda and has been well outside the norm for the better part of several thousand years.
2. If you think OBL is connected to Bush, start taking your meds again. Or actually find evidence to support such an extravagant claim.
3. You don't offer a truce unless you've become weak. The simplest explanation is that OBL is trying to further inflame the anti-war half of our nation with an offer of peace.
4. Never forget that as much as Iraq has been a logistical drain on us, the conflict there (and even more prolifically in Afghanistan) has been significant for al Qaeda.
5. Finally, as useful as our presence in Iraq has been for al Qaeda's recruitment efforts, we've past the worst point. Bombing Iraqi/Jordanian *civilians* and fellow Muslims isn't exactly expanding their recruit base.
Correction to the above:
4. refers to a significant *drain* for al Qaeda as opposed to the conflict merely being significant.
Apostate Jew,
Thank you for checking into the source links that provide evidence for prior 9/11 attack knowledge by the Israeli government.
It all boils down to Carl Cameron's quote, "How could they not have known?"
No, it's rather more conclusive than that. The adundant evidence is that the Israeli government did have prior knowledge.
Note this one:
Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ..." "Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA?
"Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: ?The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.? But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?"
http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707
No, they probably helped plan it ...
That's not my conclusion and won't be unless I see evidence for it. BTW, in his book, Raimondo doesn't draw that conclusion. It might well be, but evidence is required.
If you were planning to fabricate a provocation to get a great power to make war on your enemies, would you use agents who arouse suspicions of DEA agents?
Good question, but it begs another: Why were the Israeli agents tailing the hijackers then?
In another thread, you described yourself as a "fanatical Zionist". I wantcha to know that even if it turns out that the Israeli government planned 9/11, I would never hold it against the whole country. Governments do hideous things with regularity. It would be unjust to blame all the people who live under those governments. BTW, if it turns out that the Israeli government did have a hand in planning 9/11, it's my conjecture that the Bush administration was complicit. But as I said before, as much direct evidence as there is that the Israeli government had prior knowledge, I know of no direct evidence that had a role in facilitating 9/11.
GILMORE,
Barton...runs a nonstop echo chamber of ...'it teh joos! they knew!
Oh right, GILMORE. When you lack substantive arguments, just insinuate unfounded charges of racism. Must I explain to you that the Israeli government is not "the Jews"? Ya know, when you bring this BS up, you probably encourage racists.
citing as his sole source ... antiwar.com ...
What?? That file has links from many and diverse sources.
GILMORE, you need to read more. Or at least try thinking more.
Kristan:
If you think OBL is connected to Bush, start taking your meds again. Or actually find evidence to support such an extravagant claim.
I'm not saying that I know for sure that OBL is connected to Bush. But in view of the fact that right before the election he issued a warning not to vote for Bush and now he says that if our government will pull out of Iraq, he won't hit us again, despite how manifest it is that these proclamations would have an opposite effect, it's silly not to consider the possibility that OBL is a US government asset. It has been observed on this thread that he was just that at one point.
Note also the curious attitude that administration official seem to have about OBL. For other AQ operatives, they say things like they really hope to track them down or kill them soon. But with OBL, it's like "what ever" "maybe we will get him, maybe not, doesn't really matter".
Go America! and Go Broncos!
Yes! And it's go America, go capitalism and other individual liberties, not our idiot government. And yes, Go Broncos! It's been 7 years since Denver was in football Nirvana. Howbout, Denver 24 Pittsburgh 13? The Bus will break down in Denver!
Rick,
I read all your links a while back. I have heard all the rumors about Isreal knowing. But having read all your links and having talked to many Arabs who believe the same thing, I have come to the conclusion that the evidence is very weak.
I have no idea what the Israelis were doing who were uncovered by the DEA, but they seemed at best amateurish. Maybe they were third stringers practicing in a friendly country, who knows.
I might be biased because I like Bush. But I am not particularly fond of Israel. I don't like them spying on us. I don't like what they did to the USS Liberty. I don't like how many American jews are liberals and dovish about the US in Vietnam and in Iraq, but are hawkier than the hawkiest dudes about Israel in Palestine.
But again having read all your links, I don't see any real evidence that Israel knew about 9/11.
And to this supposed mastermind that is OBL. I think that once again he underestimates (but not by much) the US (I don't think he underestimates liberals). He didn't underestimate the Spainiards. He still thinks that we are cowards that hide behind our technology, and maybe he believes that the election here was so close because he did in fact influence the election in his benefit.
All his talking points were mirror images of democratic talking points. His last one was a Mike Moorer show.
He attacked us because of our actions in the first gulf war (placing our troops in the holy land, including our women with no modesty). This time his actions have further placed us on Arab lands. We have set up a democracy in Iraq. And we are killing Arabs that fight for his cause on a daily basis on Arab soil. That hurts him as much as it angers him.
His latest recording influenced my opinion of wiretappings. Any part of me that was upset about it is now gone.
kwais,
What about:
Next Door to Mohammed Atta
Israeli agents were living in Florida and tailing the future death pilots until their cover was blown.
by Oliver Schrom Die Zeit
http://iraq-info.1accesshost.com/schrom.html
October 14, 2002
Note at the end of the article it says "Israeli intelligence gave US authorities a list with names of suspects who were staying in the US for the purpose of preparing attacks." But some analysts, I think including Raimondo, have looked into it and pointed out that the alleged warnings were delivered to uncharacteristically low level personal and conduits where it was very unlikely that timely action would be taken. Also, the warnings were given after the Israeli spies were starting to be exposed. Almost like a constructed alibi. I also think that if the Israeli government really tried to warn us, the Israeli government lobby would have publicized the Hell out of the fact.
Also, didja check out the link that I provided at 9:56 PM?
Look, Barton, I've had it up to here with your crackpot theories and your cheap slander.
You take that back about Jerome Bettis!
joe,
I wanna wait till tomorrow to see if I have to. But I don't think that I will. So who you rootin for, joe?
Rick,
Mrs. joe is from Pittsburgh - our first date was watching a Pats/Pittsburgh game, and I got her a Roethelesetheseoleogebergoeler jersey for Chirstmas this year - so I'm pretty much locked in to deh Stillers.
You've also gotta love a team that's that physical, and that runs the ball that much. Plus, Big Ben stepping up the way he has this year, espeically last week, has a real Brady vibe to it.
I used to be a Communist in my youth (ah the follies of youth - but the women were good looking).
It seems the Libertarians have taken up, without irony, the Communist ideal for American Foreign Policy.
I suppose it could be worse. They could take up the Islamic Fascist ideal. Oh. Wait.
Never mind.
I'm pretty much against everything Barton/Raimondo stand for. But I'm interested in counterfactuals.
Here is one I thought interesting and with some merit, from an engineering standpoint.
WTC cover up.
Do you suppose America spies on our ally Israel?
Is spying on allies normal? Is it a good idea?
=======================
BTW a really good argument always presents counterfactuals. It leaves open the possiblity of error. Bias. Bad information. Misinterpretation. New evidence. etc.
You never get that from Raimondo.
He does look good with the cigarette hanging from his lip. Is that graphic still up? Haven't visited his site in years.
Rick,
I think you are right about OBL being an American asset.
And Putin. And the President of Iran. And Kim of North Korea. And the former anti-American leader of Germany Schroeder. I mean the fact that Schroeder got a job from Putin after he lost the German elections proves it. It is so obvious.
America is backing its enemies so it can have an excuse to take over the world.
It's a plot I tell you. Diabolical in its cleverness. I wonder who is behind Bush? It is obvious he is not smart enough to impliment let alone think of such a plan on his own.
Who did you say controls America's money supply aain?
If Israeli agents were following the hijackers, why weren't American agents tracking both groups?
Something fishy here.
NSA can only do the wire taps if one side of the conversation is in a foreign country.
In fact controlling what crosses the borders is the Feds job. According to, you know, the Constitution.
Which includes info as well as material objects.
At least they are only looking not censoring.
M Simon,
"Do you suppose America spies on our ally Israel?
Is spying on allies normal? Is it a good idea?"
There's spying, and then there's spying. There are whole buildings full of American officers who do nothing but collect and analyze information from the public record, for example.
I'm sure we do "spy on Israel," but collaborating with their officers to violate their laws, in a manner comparable to Larry Franklin or Jonathon Pollard - I certainly hope not.
joe,
You take that back about Jerome Bettis!
Ok, I take it back now. (After that game, I pretty much got to, huh?) Kudos to the Steelers, you and Mrs.joe. 🙂
M. Simon:
I think you are right about OBL being an American asset.
I'm not saying that he is for sure. I'm saying that we should consider the possibility.