Louie in the Sty with Dentists

Last weekend The New York Times profiled LSD inventor Albert Hofmann, who turns 100 tomorrow. If you're expecting a hippie outlaw, you'll be disappointed:

"It was used very successfully for 10 years in psychoanalysis," [Hoffman] said, adding that the drug was hijacked by the youth movement of the 1960's and then demonized by the establishment that the movement opposed. He said LSD could be dangerous and called its distribution by Timothy Leary and others "a crime."

"It should be a controlled substance with the same status as morphine," he said.

Interestingly, that was Leary's original position as well, before the government upped the ante by banning the drug altogether. "Turn on, tune in, drop out" came later.

One of the first celebrities to experiment with Hofmann's creation was Claire Booth Luce, spouse of Time mogul Henry Luce. Celebrate her psychedelic legacy with a sheet of blotter acid and the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute's pin-up calendar of "great American conservative women," whose lineup of lady Republicans includes Ann Coulter, Shemane Nugent, and Suzanne Fields.

Comments

[PJ]

One wonders if they are wearing the uber conservative swimsuits that someone posted before....

[zach]

Sounds like a pretty cruel form of psychoanalysis. I gotta say, I tried it for the first time on new year's eve and I don't know what all the fuss is about. "Here, now your world will move around and you can't sleep for 8 hours. So tell me about your mother."

[smacky]

zach,

My experiences would suggest that it leaves a much stronger psychic impression and/or recollection in everyday life of the psychological behaviors learned or understood while on the drug.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Although results may vary, as a rule real acid puts you in cartoonland for a couple of days. Mescaline mixed with a little speed and eyedroppered onto blotter paper doesn't.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Ahhhh, how times change, when I was skinnier all the hotties were lefties and most of the conservative/libertarian chicks were, well, not.

Disclaimer: That is not to say that TWC agrees that the aforementioned hi-profile conservative women are necessarily the babes they are portrayed to be...............but none bark.

[Comstock]

"Altered states, free markets"

[JD]

I'm not that surprised about Hoffman - I mean, the guy was a chemist working for a big pharmaceutical firm. The fact that he happened to accidentally discover a hallucinogen has nothing to do with whether he's going to be a libertarian about it or not. Still, this is at least a little bit heartening: "But Mr. Hofmann calls LSD "medicine for the soul" and is frustrated by the worldwide prohibition that has pushed it underground." I don't get how he reconciles that with the idea that it should be regulated like morphine, but that could just be the writer's spin on things.

I never quite understood what good LSD would be in psychotherapy, but maybe I haven't read enough about it. Certainly it gave me insights into the nature of perception, but that was more of a philosophical thing than about solving any problem that I had.

TWC: A couple days? No source I've ever seen - either negative ones like the DEA or positive ones like erowid.org - says a trip lasts for days.

Zach: I'm surprised you were able to get hold of any - I know there was a big bust back in 2001 (IIRC) which took down the two guys who were supposed to be responsible for the vast majority of American LSD, and my impression was that the supply had largely dried up. Of course, that could just be DEA propaganda.

[emme]

"One wonders if they are wearing the uber conservative swimsuits that someone posted before...."

The calendar is lame. They're all head shots.

Wasn't there a libertarian party out of North Carolina that put out a Calendar with members of the party in bikinis or something? I think it was called Liberty Belles.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

JD, I've personally babysat friends who were tripping for that long. Not to say they were completely non-functional for 48 hours...as the drug began to wear off, the hallucinations tended to become more sporadic and less dramatic.

Although one friend of mine claimed that both acid and pot made you see things as they really are most of the rest of my friends never made any claims about the pyschological benefits of LSD.

I suppose I should mention that this acid was high grade and likely made by Leary or his deciples rather than by outlaw biker gangs in the hills above Desert Hot Springs.

I don't recall why we came to believe it but at some point rumor of genetic damage resulting from the use of LSD became accepted as fact. That's when most of my friends stopped dropping acid. Or maybe it was because they got jobs, I dunno.

[smacky]

On a different note, what is the title of this thread referencing (besides LSD, obviously)? I don't get it.

[Stevo Darkly]

There is this song, "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." Back before you were born, smacky, it was quite popular. There was this band from England, called the Beatles. You know Paul McCartney, the animal rights activist who also has a band called The Wings? And Ringo Starr, who was in Caveman? They used to be members ... 🙂

Oh! Maybe you mean, who is Louie, and what sty, and what dentists? I dunno.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Emme, couldn't find the calendar but I found a blog called Liberty Belles that seems libertarian and mentions both Drew Carey and Reason in their what we want section.

While we may not be naked and pouting, our ideas are on display for all to see. We stand for free minds, free markets, free? Well, let's say we don't mind you holding the door for us, we just don't want the government doing it.

[smacky]

There is this song, "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." Back before you were born, smacky, it was quite popular. There was this band from England, called the Beatles. You know Paul McCartney, the animal rights activist who also has a band called The Wings? And Ringo Starr, who was in Caveman? They used to be members ... 🙂

I am well aware of the song, Snarky McSnarkster.

Oh! Maybe you mean, who is Louie, and what sty, and what dentists?

Exactly.

[SR]

"but none bark."

Although Coulter does whinny if you hold a sugar cube in front of her....

[Warren]

TWC,
I am skeptical of what you say about trips lasting days. I have put in hundred of hours of research followed up by numerous experiments. Dosage is very important in intensity and duration, but even large dosages only last several hours, with lingering effects for perhaps a day and a half (although after the first day the lingering effects are more in the line of a hangover, exhausted but unable to sleep, difficult bowl movements etc). It's true that there are many things sold as LSD. However, most subjects have no difficulty discerning the effects of genuine LSD from imitations.

As for clinical usage, It was considered very effective by the psychological community as an aid in psychotherapy. Cary Grant used it something like a dozen times and swore to its power and effectiveness. The presence of the psychologist to direct the conversation and guide the patient is absolutely essential to achieving meaningful psychological results.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

JD, got some responses to a quick email poll I set up after reading your comment. I asked several friends I have babysat. One guy said:

it only seemed like two days--to both of us

Another said:

10-12 hours was about it but I usually stumbled around the next day and every once in a while a co-worker would grow a third eye or Pinnochio's nose

Another said:

it lasted for days because we kept taking more LSD when it would start to wear off

Another said:

8-12 hours with the best part lasting about 4 hours

Didn't mean to be misleading, it surely did seem like those guys were tripping most of the weekend--although some of them actually went to work and or drove while on LSD. I shuddered even then.

[emme]

Found the libertarian calendar:

http://www.rachelmills.com/calendar.html

[smacky]

"But Mr. Hofmann calls LSD "medicine for the soul" and is frustrated by the worldwide prohibition that has pushed it underground." I don't get how he reconciles that with the idea that it should be regulated like morphine, but that could just be the writer's spin on things.

JD,

Adding to what Warren said, I think I would edit his last sentence to read: The presence of the psychologist to direct the conversation and guide the patient is absolutely essential to achieving meaningful and positivepsychological results. (bold mine)

Because environment and surroundings, mood, etc. play a key role in an LSD experience, I can easily see why Hoffman would want it as a controlled substance. While its therapeutic usage might aid someone with resolving psychological issues under the right conditions, under the "incorrect" conditions, the drug could likewise aid and abet pre-existing psychological idiosynchracies and mental illnesses. Timothy Leary was also a big proponent of being in the right environment and setting for an LSD trip, as am I...

[daksya]

Strong acid will typically last about 6-7 hours in the main and 5-6 hours after in the mild after effects.

It should be a controlled substance with the same status as morphine

Bullshit. I shouldn't need the permission of white coats and black suits (and possibly restriction in a lab setting ? la Strassman's DMT experiments) to take acid. What's needed is a culture of respect for potent psychedelics.

[emme]

I heard that about 4-5 grams of niacin or niacinamide will kill an lsd trip almost instantly. I've never tried before. Anybody here ever heard of this?

[Adam]

zach, all trips are not created equal.
It's too bad Hoffman's in the "lock it behind the counter" camp, but we don't know how Hoffman thinks morphine should be "controlled." Doesn't necessarily make him a prohibitionist.

[daksya]

Heard that it doesn't work. And neither does chlorpromazine, contrary to belief.

[Warren]

daksya,

LSD should have the same status as morphine, and that status should be what we have for alcohol.

[Adam]

Warren, why do you insist on oppressing 18-to-21 year olds?

[smacky]

but we don't know how Hoffman thinks morphine should be "controlled." Doesn't necessarily make him a prohibitionist.

Exactly. Furthermore, it may be beneficial to have some substances controlled. (here's my libertarian decoder ring). I say this because as a person who has taken LSD, there are certain people I know who I definately would not want to see on this particular drug. One small example: LSD can induce feelings of togetherness and agreeability. I can only imagine that in some of the more weakminded Sheeple, under the persuasion of some lunatic governmental opportunist, an LSD trip would only further encourage them in their statist beliefs. Merely an example, but given more time, I could list many reasons why I would not want to see LSD sold at Soda Fountains in Walmarts across the country. It's very powerful, in a way unlike alcohol or marijuana or aspirin.

[daksya]

Warren, agreed. But that's not what Hoffman's saying.

[emme]

"Heard that it doesn't work. And neither does chlorpromazine, contrary to belief."

That's too bad. Looks like my old counter-culture hero Robert Anton Wilson is wrong yet again.

[Timothy]

I can only imagine that in some of the more weakminded Sheeple, under the persuasion of some lunatic governmental opportunist, an LSD trip would only further encourage them in their statist beliefs.

MK ULTRA!

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Warren, I assume you are tongue-in-cheek when you say

LSD should have the same status as morphine, and that status should be what we have for alcohol.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Warren, never mind, I totally misread what you wrote the first time through. Sorry.

[Ira Weatheral]

Forget the sheeple, I always thought 16 year olds should be encouraged to take it to help see the difference between reality and man made cultural reality.

[Ira Weatheral]

and laserrock at the local planetarium, of course.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Everyone should drop acid at least once, preferably before age 25.

Re Hoffman's "controlled substance" stance: my understanding, from an old interview with Hoffman, is that he continued to mix himself up small batches for personal use well into the 1980s.
(Can't verify)

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Hoffman -> Hofmann.

[zach]

I think when it comes to LSD, people just like to make up shit about it. Last night my friend told me that someone at an Air Force recruiting office told him that you can't fly at speeds faster than Mach 1 if you've ever done LSD, or else your brain will melt. Upon pressing him on the matter, he conceded maybe it only applied to people who recently took it. He also insists that LSD is "stored" in your spine, and if you've dropped enough acid, you'll trip when you crack your back.

The guy that sold us the stuff on new year's eve also let us in on the secret that the vast majority of LSD sold in the US was in fact a drug called "LSA", and that it's a completely different kind of high. I didn't buy a word of it, but I did buy his drugs.

[Jesse Walker]

Hoffman -> Hofmann

Thanks for catching that. I just fixed it.

[Zoidburg]

Leary was also a big proponent of being in the right environment and setting for an LSD trip, as am I...

If what my college philosophy prof told me was true, Leary worked very hard indeed to make sure that anyone taking acid inder his supervision was in the right state of mind. If Leary didn't think you were ready for it, he wouldn't give it to you.

My prof asked the guy next to him at dinner the first night there if he thought Leary knew what he was doing, not realizing it was Timothy himself he was asking.

[Lowdog]

I used to be able to get it in a breath mint dropper...that was some good stuff.

I had some trips that seemed very spiritual/profound, like I was shown secrets of the universe, but then you think about it, and you realise it's probably just chemical reactions.

Doesn't make it seem any less profound, though.

[emme]

"If what my college philosophy prof told me was true, Leary worked very hard indeed to make sure that anyone taking acid inder his supervision was in the right state of mind. If Leary didn't think you were ready for it, he wouldn't give it to you."

He made some pretty ridiculous claims about lsd and shrooms though. In Politics of Ecstasy he said it could turn homosexuals straight and that it could straighten out violent inmates and make them less violent in the long run somehow.

[daksya]

drug called "LSA", and that it's a completely different kind of high.

LSA isn't much of a "high" at all. It is shitty, alright.

I had some trips that seemed very spiritual/profound, like I was shown secrets of the universe, but then you think about it, and you realise it's probably just chemical reactions.

This line of reasoning always seems bizarre to me, since if you believe physicalism, ALL of your life is a giant chemical reaction. What you're trying to say is that acid doesn't truely reveal secrets, but this assessment is dependent on your predisposition on what type of secrets you think the universe is hiding. Acid is as real as waking life. The question is, how does it all fit in?

[Lowdog]

daksya - of course all life is a giant chemical reaction, which is why I realised that my spiritual/profound LSD trips are/were, too.

It's not that it doesn't reveal secrets, it's that those secrets are not some sort of "spiritual" knowledge, just plain ol', regular knowledge.

Again, that doesn't make it less profound.

But some of my friends question how I can be an atheist after having experiences such as I've described to them.

Yes, it's all very hard to explain, especially over a blog. 🙂

[ScheduleIFiend]

Zach,
He wasn't completely wrong. LSA is short for Lysergic Acid Amide. It is a close analog / precursor for LSD that is derived from Morning Glory and Hawaiian Rosewood seeds. The trip is very different and the doseage needed is much higher. I don't think you could get the necessary dosage into blotter though. FYI it is also a Schedule I substance according to the CSA.

[daksya]

LSA is Schedule III.

[daksya]

it's that those secrets are not some sort of "spiritual" knowledge

Define "spiritual" knowledge.

[cliff]

"Wasn't there a libertarian party out of North Carolina that put out a Calendar with members of the party in bikinis or something? I think it was called Liberty Belles."

The Libertarian Party of Colorado had a calender in 2000 and it was called "Ladies of Liberty". The women were fully clothed and involved in provocative acts such as defending their home with guns, etc. OO la la.

[Amanda Hugginkiss]

I -- er, that is, a friend of mine -- can personally attest to the psychoanalytical nature of acid. My friend had several marvelous revelations while on the drug, the most noteworthy of which was the realization that he was a stoner wasting his life sitting around with a bunch of other stoners with heads full of acid. That and also the idea that much of day-to-day living is full of plastic superficialty. He may have had these revelations otherwise, but my friend assures me that these epiphanies went a long way to getting his sh*t together at a low time in his life.

Of course, the price for these experiences was 8-10 hours of wide-awake slithering shakiness, followed by several days of stone-cold retardation, followed in turn by several weeks of tetrododoxin-esque heebie-jeebieness.

[Ira Weatheral]

Yeah, I always felt I had a shell of evaportaed sweat and ???? on me after spending a night bugging out.

[Lowdog]

daksya - well, as someone who is an atheist, I suppose "spiritual" knowledge would be knowledge that comes from a conscience that is other than your own.

Although that doesn't really cut it, either, since I don't necessarily believe that you just die when you die, either, or that any conscience not my own is "spiritual".

Again, tough to explain.

[JD]

Thanks for the pointers, people; I'll have to do some more research, and by that I mean reading, not tripping! I can see, of course, how someone who was, say, already suffering from paranoid schizophrenia would probably not be the best candidate.

daksya: What's needed is a culture of respect for potent psychedelics.

I'm entirely in agreement with that. I don't know if anyone else here has read Craze: Gin and Debauchery in an Age of Reason, but it mentions how when gin first became common in England, people served and drank it like beer. You can imagine the effect that drinking a pint of gin has on people. Now, obviously some people still drink themselves to death, but we eventually developed a culture of drinking which integrated hard liquor, and we developed less harmful ways of using it. One of the sins of the Drug War is that it prevents cultures from developing healthier ways to deal with psychoactive chemicals, culturally crippling us and perpetuating the problems it claims to try to solve.

smacky: I dunno about the "weak-minded people" hypothesis. I don't think I want to have to prevent people from taking psychotropics to save them from the government any more than I want to have to stop them in order to save them from themselves.

[Indie Rock Snob]

The Beatles were a poor-man's Monkees. They had Mister Conductor from Shining Time Station as a member, ferchrissakes!

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Define "spiritual" knowledge.

Ball-walking on an Earth that's only about 4' in diameter and paved with Mexican tiles while cars smile at you as they pass thrashing, tentacled, 100' tall palm trees.

That and laughing so hard you think yer gonna die.

niacin or niacinamide will kill an lsd trip almost instantly. ... Anybody here ever heard of this?

A saw a couple of people try it and the niacin seemed to work, but the niacinamide didn't. They were still a bit goofy for a while, though.
Also see http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/guides/handbook_lsd25.shtml

Notice to Feds: statute of limitations *way* expired; pick on someone else.

[Shem]

Disclaimer: That is not to say that TWC agrees that the aforementioned hi-profile conservative women are necessarily the babes they are portrayed to be...............but none bark.

Yeah, but Coulter is just a pile of venomous spiders covered with a thin membrane of skin. Would you really want that in your bed?

Oops, I just broke the law, didn't I?

[smacky]

That and laughing so hard you think yer gonna die.

...in otherwise complete silence with your company.

*shudder*

JD,

I never specified how I think LSD should be regulated. I never said anyone should be prevented from getting it. Hindered, maybe. I just don't happen to think that it should be available next to the candy bars at the grocery store checkout line. And there exist some good reasons for me believing that.

[Randolph Carter]

The reason there should be some sort of restrictions (or, some guy saying "are you sure you want this one?") is because of the mandatory time-requirements of hallucinogens. If you go to see a movie and want to leave, you can get up and walk out. Not so with hallucinogens, so you need to be sure you're in for the long haul if you're going to do them.

[Pro Libertate]

Indie Rock Snob,

Mr. Conductor has achieved greatness your bands can only dream of. I refer, of course, to this.

[emme]

"A saw a couple of people try it and the niacin seemed to work, but the niacinamide didn't. They were still a bit goofy for a while, though. "

I've heard that too. The reason I would never try the niacin thing is because from what I hear you need at least 3 grams of that in your system to stop the trip.

I don't know if you guys have ever taken Niacin before but it makes you burn and itch like crazy and you break out with what looks like a rash but is actually called a "flush".

If you're having a bad trip and you want it to stop wouldn't the niacin with its side effects creep you out even more? It would also tear your stomach apart.

[smacky]

The reason there should be some sort of restrictions (or, some guy saying "are you sure you want this one?") is because of the mandatory time-requirements of hallucinogens. If you go to see a movie and want to leave, you can get up and walk out. Not so with hallucinogens, so you need to be sure you're in for the long haul if you're going to do them.

Yes, there is one good reason for restrictions. It's not like getting drunk or smoking up...you can't just lie down and sleep it off...but it might be funny to watch somebody try.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Shem, I'm not sure I'd want Coulter in my bed--actually saw some funny stuff about that on some lefty blog last year. I have CRS so I don't know which one anymore.

Besides, although I like scrawny chicks just fine, Coulter looks more like a sketcher or a Zooport Beach plasticite blonde than a real chick. I think she probably has Mattel stamped on her ass.

She's better looking than some women but I don't count her as a hottie by any stretch. So, no, I guess she's not my dream date. Don't read her stuff so I don't know about the spiders, just go by what I see here.

[mediageek]

I find skinny women attractive, but not Coulter.

Nothing pisses me off more than a woman who excuses herself in order to go purge the $30 worth of Steak Dianne and rice pilaf I've purchased for her.

[smacky]

mediageek,

What about a woman who racks up twice that amount in drinks and dessert? Oh wait, this hypothetical woman wouldn't necessarily be skinny...

[mediageek]

Incidentally, I've heard that ecstasy was also touted as being a wonderful aid to psychological therapy.

[smacky]

Ecstasy is also a wonderful aid to rape.

[Kwix]

Ecstasy is also a wonderful aid to rape.
So is Jack Daniels. What's your point?

Should Ecstasy be banned because some people are stupid enough to take it around people they can't trust? Is it up to the Government to protect people from thier own mistakes?

[smacky]

Should Ecstasy be banned because some people are stupid enough to take it around people they can't trust? Is it up to the Government to protect people from thier own mistakes?

Kwix,

Um no. And no.

Since you asked, although I didn't mention it in my reply to mediageek, my point, unrelated to my previous reply, is that ecstasy is not all that its cracked up to be. Pardon the pun. Ecstasy, or pure MDMA, has a somewhat different effect on the user as opposed to pure LSD. Although I cannot prove that I've had pure forms of either, MDMA produces more of a blindly euphoric feeling, while LSD produces much more of an introspective and hence psychadelic thought process for a user. Plus, ecstasy pills are more commonly tampered with or sold with combinations of chemicals that are not the real thing, whereas acid is usually more reliable to get in its expected form. My point is that LSD trumps ecstasy and would be a more effective tool for psychological therapy. LSD produces true introspection, whereas ecstasy produces, well, drug-induced ecstasy of sorts. I haven't clinically studied the effects of both drugs on the brain, but I imagine it is easier to "internalize", or learn, things on LSD than it is on ecstasy.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Media, isn't Steak Dianne pretty much shown to the fire and tossed onto the plate?

[Lowdog]

I don't know about Ecstasy being a wonderful aid to rape. Where'd you hear that, smacky? I hope you weren't speaking from any experience you or someone close to you had, but from my experience, there's not a whole lot of rape, or even a lot of "free love", going on. Sure, you're probably a lot "friendlier" than usually, but you don't normally do things you aren't prone to do otherwise.

Go to maps.org...they're actually doing studies with psilocybin and MDMA in treating post-traumatic stress and other psychological issues.

[Kwix]

Smacky,
Roger that. You are correct that ecstasy is more frequently substituted with other things (due to prohibition/CSA) and that it creates a more euphoric feeling than LSD ever would.

My reaction was because the "aids in rape" card is usually pulled out when someone wishes to demonize something, whether it be a drug, a lifestyle, a cut of clothing, etc. If your beef with mediageek was the effectiveness of Ecstasy vs LSD for psychotheraputic use then you should have countered with it.

Disclaimer: I do not condone rape and feel that rape is 100% caused by rapists.

[Stevo Darkly]

Hey, now I'm curious. Am I the only person in America who has never sampled an illegal drug?

[andy]

"Disclaimer: I do not condone rape and feel that rape is 100% caused by rapists."

What's wrong with rape? Pretty soon you're going to be telling us that ritualistic sacrifice and torture aren't ok. Jeez, ya fuddy-duddy...

Anyway, E may not help much in "learning" the same way acid does, but it's a wonderful tool for meditation, not to mention in improving interpersonal relations.

[andy]

"Hey, now I'm curious. Am I the only person in America who has never sampled an illegal drug?"

No, but probably the only person on this site 😉

[Kwix]

Hey, now I'm curious. Am I the only person in America who has never sampled an illegal drug?

If you haven't tried one yet, just wait for the DEA to make illegal one that you have tried. I suspect you won't have to wait for long.

[Shem]

Incidentally, I've heard that ecstasy was also touted as being a wonderful aid to psychological therapy.

I actually had the chance to chat up a Doc who was doing a lot of the work with MDMA in the 70s. He used it mostly in couples therapy and swore by it's effects. It's also being tested on people with severe PTSD, which doesn't really surprise me. It's theraputic effects are actually a lot more readliy obvious and quite a bit more relaible than LSD's, which is a lot harder to predict.

Although I might be biased. I got over a large portion of my stage fright through MDMA, while all LSD ever taught me was that I don't enjoy having all the laws that underpin my life forcibly jerked out from under me.

Also, MDMA actually tends to make rape harder to commit, as it lessens agression and makes it extremely difficult for most men to maintain an erection.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Stevo, I know a few people who haven't sampled any illicit drugs ever. But it's hard to find someone who hasn't at least smoked pot once or twice, especially in my generation.

Several of my formerly long haired, drug-crazed, hippie-freak friends haven't sampled illicit drugs in many, many years (a couple of them even have top secret clearances) does that count toward never?

And, slightly off topic, my grandfather consumed exactly one half of a glass of beer during his entire 75 years on the planet. He was a guy who could have used a drink, too.

[Shem]

Ecstasy, or pure MDMA, has a somewhat different effect on the user as opposed to pure LSD.

Whoever told you to expect them to be similar? MDMA is part of antirely different class of drug. It's like complaining that heroin doesn't give you that euphoric feeling you get from opium. Of course not, they're two entirely different things.

[Shem]

antirely-an entirely

And reverse opium and heroin in the sentence. Heroin gives the euphoria, opium just makes you mellow.

I haven't been hitting the pipe, honest.

[daksya]

Shem, what are you smoking? Heroin is just morphine that gets into the brain more easily. Morphine is the main agent in opium vapors. The difference comes from the kinetics of ingesting a smaller quantity of morphine via the lung slowly vs. injecting larger amounts of heroin into the vein. There also might be some modulatory effect in opium from the other agents like codeine or thebaine..etc, but "entirely different"??

OTOH, MDMA and LSD *do* belong to different classes.

[Shem]

The differences are subtle, but they're substantive enough that although the two are both opiods they might as well be different drugs. Similar to how MDMA and LSD are both hallucinogenic, but whose effects are such that the two are nothing alike. Not the best metaphor, I grant, but better than comparing alcohol to pot, which is what I had initially planned to use.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Got one more reply to my informal email poll on LSD. It was more eloquent. Here's an excerpt:

It's literally impossible to convey the experience to someone who's never tried the drug. Those who have tried it are often changed forever by the experience, thus you feel like you're a member of a kind of special club. I didn't realize that (name deleted) was also a veteran of the psychedelic experience.....I visited him, smoked some dope and talked about our youthful drug escapades. It turned out that he shared the experience of spiritual revelation the drug can bring. We were both atheistic or agnostic before tripping, but afterward he and I both came to believe in a sort of pantheism, i.e. that God is nothing less than the Universe itself, that Life, in the grand sense of a collective self-awareness comprised of a near-infinite number of individuals, is eternal.

[The Moody Blues]

Timothy Leary's Dead

[daksya]

Shem, MDMA's hallucinogenic? That's stretching it, although I don't like that term even for LSD.

[mediageek]

"Anyway, E may not help much in "learning" the same way acid does, but it's a wonderful tool for meditation, not to mention in improving interpersonal relations."

I'll say. The one and only rave I've ever been to, well, there were these two rather cute, leather clad girls.

They
were
all
over
each
other.

I have never seen anything like it before or since. It was easily one of the top five hottest things I've ever witnessed.

Anyway, apologies for a story that has, well, nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Stevo Darkly]

FORGIVEN!

[Shem]

"Hallucinogenic" has gone from being exclusively used to describe drugs like LSD to expanding to serve as a catch-all for any substance that alters thought, feeling or emotion and is non-addictive. MDMA is an entactogen, a hallucinogenic which works by inducing the brain to dump serotonin into the bloodstream. LSD, on the other hand, binds to serotonin and dopamine receptors, causing the characteristic shift in perception. I agree that in terms of real world experience the two go together about as well as peanut butter and chicken fat (sort of the point I was making) but I didn't invent the taxonomy. In fact, I sometimes wonder if the people who do have ever used the substances that they're classifying.

[Shem]

Jeez, somebody pass Stevo the pipe 😉

[smacky]

I don't know about Ecstasy being a wonderful aid to rape. Where'd you hear that, smacky?

Well, Shem may have a point that MDMA probably makes the act of sex difficult for men, although I've heard exactly otherwise (Ecstasy always had quite a reputation as "the horny drug" where I come from...people would rave that if you take it and have sex that the sex is amazing...I never followed that advice, although I have taken the drug). Still, I think that the reason I said it would be an "aid to rape" is based on personal testimonial (no, don't worry, I haven't been raped, but thanks regardless for your concern). What I can say, though, is that I never felt like I had my guard down as much as when I was on that drug. Everyone seems so much nicer; you have the sense that there is goodwill everywhere; you love people. And if you are in an unsavory crowd, for example at a huge rave with tons of strangers who are also on drugs OR (and this is more what I was concerned about) with strangers who aren't on drugs, you can find yourself in some questionable circumstances. Basically, I believe that MDMA often lulls its user into a false sense of security. I do not think LSD has the same social effect. To contrast them more clearly, I see MDMA as creating the illusions of safety, trust, and interpersonal understanding, whereas LSD is much more internal of an experience and has the ability to produce revelations that are probably more legitimate in sober reality than those produced from x. I would say that you can probably trust a psychadelic experience (LSD) over a euphoric (MDMA) one.

Kwix, you are right that I should've countered mediageek's comment with a relevant comment. My argumentitive style could be described as awful: "flip" and "irrelevant" are two words that could frequently describe it.

TWC,

Really? It had quite the opposite effect for me, I think. I would say that experimenting with LSD and other psychoactives inforced my agnosticism, if not pushed me towards atheism.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

The server ate my last post, this one will be shorter. Smacky, it's interesting stuff, isn't it? The guy who wrote the ode to LSD is a sharp guy and a libertarian to boot.

I also think that Yuppie Pot can make you introspective as well. Advantages: tastes better, cheaper, legal. Disadvantages: caloric content

[Lowdog]

TWC - i.e. that God is nothing less than the Universe itself, that Life, in the grand sense of a collective self-awareness comprised of a near-infinite number of individuals, is eternal.

That's exactly the experience I had a couple of times, but it actually made me less religious.

Funny, huh?

[Lowdog]

smacky - Ok, I see where you're coming from. As someone who is quite fond of MDMA, I got a little frazzled there. 🙂

But that's the thing, you really should be among friends, and others doing it so you don't let your guard down to the wrong people. Also, it is very useful in therapy, because you're with a professional, helping you to cope with what you're feeling, and it's often used in interpersonal relations, so you've often got someone there you care about taking it with you, too.

Again, check out MAPS.ORG - they're very professional. Erowid is good, too, but a lot of anecdotal stuff on there, in addition to the actual clinical/professional info.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Low, more like spiritual rather than religious I guess.