Neo-cons Get Letters
Paleo-cons, realists, and libertarians take their swings at the neo-cons in the letters page of Commentary, in response to this extended diss by Gary Rosen. The whole thing is surprisingly interesting; I'll quote from Rosen's response to the libertarians:
Messrs. Logan and Preble parrot a few of the more credible assertions made by critics of the war in Iraq, but they should not pretend to come to these matters with an open mind. The Cato Institute is dogmatically laissez-faire in foreign policy just as it is on every other policy question. Fearful of statism at home, libertarians have reflexively resisted virtually every assertion of American power and influence since the cold war: no to the National Endowment for Democracy, no to NATO expansion, no to the first Persian Gulf war, no to engagement in the Middle East, no to American intervention in Haiti and the Balkans. […]
Despite the upheavals and changed circumstances in America's international situation in recent years, this continues to be Cato's basic outlook. It leaves little guesswork in predicting the foreign-policy views of the institute's staffers, which is why, in my article, I called them ideologues.
Link via Andrew Sullivan.
We've been debating these questions ourselves, including a should-we-invade-Iraq? tussle from November 2002, a summer 2003 roundtable on whether liberalism can be spread at gunpoint, and much more.
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Let's play Spot the Fallacy. Cato's record of opposing overseas intervention (which may or not be as described by Rosen) has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of their position on Iraq. Rosen must have enough brainpower to know that.
"dogmatically laissez-faire"
In other words: Idealogically consistent? Maybe Rosen still believes that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Or does he think that Cato is just foolish? Rigorous consistency in thought and action is a rare and precious attribute. Cato stands head and shoulders above the others in this regard.
Despite the upheavals and changed circumstances in America's international situation in recent years...
... all of which occurred by NOT saying "no"....
Rosen must have enough brainpower to know that.
Reafing his initial post, I'm not certain of that. After all, his argument is that idealism is the best guide to foreign and domestic policy.
The existence of unfree regimes necessarily threatens the peace of free societies.
Number 6,
Good point. Still I think I'll take the bait. It's worth mentioning that CATO was right on every point. History has exposed the neo-cons as monumentally wrong in every fundamental assumption (Iraq = terrorism, missile defense, etc. etc.) and every particular (WMD, hundreds of thousands "way off the mark", etc. etc.) and still they soldier on as though they were right all along.
After they succeed in collapsing the dollar and filling the military with fourteen and forty year old conscripts, I'm sure they'll still be conjuring up other dragons that need slaying.
The existence of unfree regimes necessarily threatens the peace of free societies.
What?? How necessarily?
Notice the tired charge of Anti-Semitism which acts as a blunderbuss for the neo-cons. Anyone who disagrees with our policy vis-a-vis Israel and the Middle East simply must be an Anti-Semite, even if that includes the majority of American and a huge chunk of Israeli Jews themselves. Give me a break...
Anyone who disagrees with our policy vis-a-vis Israel and the Middle East simply must be an Anti-Semite, even if that includes the majority of American and a huge chunk of Israeli Jews themselves.
It's the "Uncle Leo" doctrine.
Agree or disagree with Cato's noninterventionist positions, it's hard to argue that Cato is inconsistent or unprincipled. And it's amazingly disingenuous to pretend that our problems overseas aren't in large part due to some of our failed interventions. We're still reaping a lot of what was sown during the Cold War, for instance. I'm not blaming the U.S. for the craziness or evil of other regimes or people, but we do have to be prepared to accept the consequences of our intervention. Maybe the rewards of our intervention(s) are worth the consequences, but it's crazy to act like the matter isn't debatable. Who is the idealogue here?
I won't deny that unfree societies can pose a threat to us. But don't we pose an even bigger threat? We're a giant magnet, drawing in the best and brightest, or at least the people crazy enough to leave behind everything and everyone that they've known and try something new. We're also a massive producer of media content, trends, and new knowledge.
Before the invasion of Iraq, I read an article where Baghdad middle school students were interviewed. The consensus was that our pop stars should be sent to Baghdad to negotiate some sort of resolution that could avert war.
Some might be disappointed by the fact that our trashy celebrities have polluted the minds of even kids on the other side of the globe. Me, I'm thrilled by it. We've created a culture with universal appeal, and it's even reached people living in even the most oppressive societies. The nation of immigrants, the nation with no original culture or tradition, has taken in people from around the world and used its market mechanism to create stuff that everybody likes.
To echo my home town's modest contribution to American pop culture:
Do you like American music?
I like American music,
Don't you like American music baby?
Rick Barton,
"'The existence of unfree regimes necessarily threatens the peace of free societies.'
"What?? How necessarily?"
Because we necessarily threaten the existence of unfree regimes. Even if we do nothing, even if we try to hide behind our walls, the very existence of a free, prosperous United States, where Presidents are voted out of office, the government isn't allowed to abuse you, people protesting against the government are actively protected by the police when thugs try to attack them, and girls walk around with their breasts all hanging out...just the existence of this shining city on a hill is an existential threat to dictators, because it gives their people something to strive for, no matter how much they crack down.
Which, joshua, is the biggest reason why I am so offended when idiots and liars appropriate this argument as a "beard" to hide their imperialist adventurism and contempt for basic decency in their treatment of people at home and abroad: because both we, and the world, need to have the good things about the United States in front of their eyes.
joe,
I take it you're not a believer in the "We need to be less free society in order to be safe from the non-free societies" theory.
And it's amazingly disingenuous to pretend that our problems overseas aren't in large part due to some of our failed interventions.
Depends on which problems, and what you mean by "failed interventions."
Our "problems" with the non-Muslim world have a lot more to do with trade, economics, and envy/fear of US dominance than any interventions, failed or otherwise.
The failure of various half-hearted interventions in and on the periphery of the Muslim world pre-9/11 certainly fed the arrogance and belligerence of the Islamists. I'm thinking here of Beirut, Somalia, the cruise missile strike on the empty tents, etc. But I think the problem here is the failure, not necessarily the intervention itself.
Now, as to the most recent and salient interventions, Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't think you can characterize them as "failed", certainly not yet. The Islamists are taking pouring resources into those countries, and are taking a tremendous beating, both operationally and on the PR front. Can anyone point to anything that could be called a sustainable "success" by the Islamists in either country? I can't think of anything, and that tells me they are losing.
RC,
You don't count the money we've spent propping up the House of Saud as an intervention?
You don't think the coup we sponsored against Mossedegh explains a great deal of our subsequent history with Iran and Hizbollah?
That corrupty dynasty is Osama's Issue #1.
Can anyone point to anything that could be called a sustainable "success" by the Islamists in either country? I can't think of anything, and that tells me they are losing.
They don't have to win, they have to hang in there until the other guys pack up and go home.
RC:
Our "problems" with the non-Muslim world have a lot more to do with trade, economics, and envy/fear of US dominance than any interventions, failed or otherwise.
That does not seem to fit the evidence. Our government's hyper-interventionist foreign policy is what motivated the attacks of 9/11, especially its support of the Israeli government's brutal and thieving occupation of Palestinian land. Note that the findings of the 9/11 commission reveal:
"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the man who conceived and directed the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was motivated by his strong disagreement with American support for Israel, said the final report of the Sept. 11 commission."
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/9222612.htm
In his 9/11 Fatwa, Bin Laden told us the three reasons for the 9/11 attack:
1.Us trrops deployed to close to Mecca
2.The blockade if Iraq.
3. American government support for the Israeli government's occupation of Palestinian land.
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Actually, the history of Hezbollah (despite being Iranian backed) has less to do with US intervention in Iran than US intervention in Lebanon (1958 and 1982).
You don't count the money we've spent propping up the House of Saud as an intervention?
I suppose, but its not a "failed" intervention. Sadly, the House of Saud has been successfully propped. Believe me, I will shed no tears when it falls, but I hardly think that we should hope that it is replaced on bin Laden's terms. Look at the alternatives before you leap.
You don't think the coup we sponsored against Mossedegh explains a great deal of our subsequent history with Iran and Hizbollah?
Again, not a "failed" intervention. And again, look at the alternative - Mossadegh was steering the country into the Soviet orbit. Or have we forgotten already?
Plus, a coup in 1953? To install a Shah that has been gone for over 20 years? I suspect something else really motivates the bin Laden and his ayatollah pals, to tell you the truth. I mean, they won that grudge match, so they must have something else on their minds. What could it be?
That corrupt dynasty is Osama's Issue #1.
I assume you mean the House of Saud, which bin Laden managed not to engage in any real direct action against until post-9/11. Curious that he never took any direct action on "Issue #1."
1.US troops deployed to close to Mecca
2.The blockade if Iraq.
Both a direct response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and both sanctioned by the UN. I would count the premature halt of the first Gulf War as a failed intervention, by the way - we should have finished Saddam off then and there. Another failure of nerve that fed the Islamist beast.
Funny how two of the three items on bin Laden's list of particulars were pro-Saddam, especially since we are told that Saddam and AQ had nothing to do with one another. Just one of those funny coincidences, I guess.
3. American government support for the Israeli government's occupation of Palestinian land.
Don't get me started.
Curious that he never took any direct action on "Issue #1."
He did. Attacking in Saudi Arabia is less direct in this case. They ain't the ones proppin' da haus.
RC, "Look at the alternatives before you leap." I haven't suggested alternatives. But I'll note that we've been sending them aid since Osama bin Laden was a gleam in his poor mother's eye.
It is reassuring to see that literally anything - even causing a country to become our sworn enemy and the world's largest sponsor of terrorism - is defined as a success by Republicans, as long as it was kept out of "the Soviet orbit." It's good when you can count on some things to never change.
"the bin Laden and his ayatollah pals" OK, a couple of points here. First "the bin Laden" despises the mullahs. They're Shiite infidels. The Taliban slaughtered their entire embassy delegation when they captured Kabul, remember? Yes, they're Muslim, bearded, and hate us - that doesn't make them BFFE. You'd think you'd have learned about making lazy assumptions about affiliation based on ethnicity and anti-Americanism by the collapse of the "Saddam is aiding bin Laden" plank of the Case for War.
Second, uh, YES, the CIA's coup and our continued support of the Shah (which continued as recently as 30 years ago, not 1953) was quite clearly the motivation for the broad popular uprising that brought the mullahs to power, as well as the reason we became their Great Satan.
And I love your weaselly phrase "direct action."
Joe's on a roll today. Go big man.
Oh Canada!
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760
The existence of unfree regimes necessarily threatens the peace of free societies.
What?? How necessarily?
Answer:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007764
Actually, Twba, I'm somewhat short. But I'm educated!
And I fight like a girraffe!
The Islamists beef with the US has nothing to do with our interventions and far more to do with age old European conflicts. They are still ticked they didn't get to keep al Andalus (Spain) and other parts of Europe. Islamists like Bin Laden want to re-establish a caliphate all across Muslim lands.
Cato is consistent...on Iraq and the W.o.T....wrong imo; but consistent.
RC:
Funny how two of the three items on bin Laden's list of particulars were pro-Saddam...
It's a real stretch to characterize the complaint about US troops being deployed too close to Mecca as "pro-Saddam". Also, Bin Laden made it clear that his concern vis a vis the blockade was for the Iraqi people, and not for Saddam. Saddam ran a ruthless persecution of Muslim fundamentalists!
The real reason for the US attack on Iraq was that the neocons wanted us to attack this enemy of Israel.
The Islamists beef with the US has nothing to do with our interventions and far more to do with age old European conflicts
That's not what the evidence indicates. Please see above.
Gary Rosen:
...even more significant than the influence of the Jewish advocacy groups and public officials in whom Walt takes an obsessive, almost unseemly, interest.
Note the miss-direction that Rosen employs. He calls organizations, which support the Israeli government, "Jewish advocacy groups". As if Jews and the Israeli government were interchangeable terms. His object in this illogic is to depict those who oppose the Israeli government as opposing Jews in general.
The existence of groups such as Brit Tzedek v'Shalom, the Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace... http://www.btvshalom.org/
...make Rosen's fallacy manifest.
Also, Rosen complains that Stephen Walt's interest in pro-Israeli government organizations is "almost unseemly". It's understandable that Rosen wouldn't want AIPAC accorded much scrutiny, especially now since two of their directors are under current indictment for spying for the Israeli government.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/04/national/main759248.shtml
Raimondo has done a great job covering this episode:
AIPAC and Espionage:
"Pentagon analyst plea bargains, threatens to expose Israel's Washington cabal"
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=7454
First "the bin Laden" despises the mullahs.
Sure, but they are still ideological soulmates. I mean, Trotsky and Stalin had little use for each other, but that doesn't mean they weren't both Commie bastards.
It is reassuring to see that literally anything - even causing a country to become our sworn enemy and the world's largest sponsor of terrorism - is defined as a success by Republicans, as long as it was kept out of "the Soviet orbit."
You seem to be mistaking me for a Republican, joe.
Lets not forget that the nearby country that did fall into the Soviet orbit, Afghanistan, was the home of the Taliban and AQ and a major center for Islamist terrorism prior to the Great Satan's intervention there. So letting Mossadegh make Iran a Soviet client back in the '50s wouldn't necessarily have prevented Iran from becoming what it is today, would it?
It is amusing to watch the anti-war folks trot out their "everything is the fault of the US" trope, which the left has taught to the bin Ladens of the world back in the day. Its a nice, self-reinforcing meme they've got going. Too bad it doesn't really explain much of what goes on in the Mideast.
See, I happen to think that bin Laden and the mullahs would be doing pretty much what they are doing now if the US had never existed. The mad mullahs wanted to run Iran as a theocratic state, and would have been happy to overthrow either the Shah or Mossadegh to do so. bin Laden is who he is, and would have a beef with the House of Saud (or whoever was running Saudi Arabia) because they weren't following his program of pan-Arab Islamist nutbaggery, or whatever it is he really wants.
These weren't little lambs gamboling in green meadows until the US comes along. They are brutal, ambitious men with their own designs on the world. Their conflict with the US arises from (a) the fact that the US won't let them have their way with things and (b) the need of every authoritarian to have an external enemy.
R.C. Dean
I implore you to read this before posting again:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760
It's a real stretch to characterize the complaint about US troops being deployed too close to Mecca as "pro-Saddam".
Well, the Saddam regime was the cause of the deployment, and would have been the primary beneficiary of a withdrawal, so I don't think it is a stretch to call this a "pro-Saddam" position.
Also, Bin Laden made it clear that his concern vis a vis the blockade was for the Iraqi people, and not for Saddam.
Are you this credulous about every terrorist's(or politician's) press releases?
Saddam ran a ruthless persecution of Muslim fundamentalists!
Like most religious extremists, bin Laden isn't above a little ruthless persecution of fellow Muslims himself. Why, joe was just lecturing us on how the Sunni bin Laden hates the Shiite ayatollahs. Why would he care if the Sunni Saddam persecuted a few Shiites? Hell, he'd probably applaud.
Skip - I am quite familiar with Mark Steyn's demographic analysis. I think there is very definitely something to it, but I think he misses a couple of things. Post for another day.
so I don't think it is a stretch to call this a "pro-Saddam" position.
RC, you're ignoring the fact that Bin Laden offered to the SA royal family to let AQ drive Saddam out of Kuwait. There is no way that his complaint about our government's troops being stationed too close to Mecca was motivated out of concern for the well being of Saddam. It was motivated by what Bin Ladden considered to be the blasphemous nature of the situation.
And RC makes the libertarian point in spite of himself:
"Their conflict with the US arises from (a) the fact that the US won't let them have their way with things"
The ONLY reason the islamists care about us is because WE STICK OUR COLLECTIVE NOSES IN THEIR BUSINESS. Absent that, they couldn't care less what happened on the other side of the globe (as should we). They'd be happy with their little theocracies, which their people would recognize as their real enemy, instead of having our troops and money there to allow them to think we are the enemy.
Honestly, what section of the Constitution declares that it is our government's duty to free the rest of the world from their own culture?
Conservatarian sounds just about right...
As if Jews and the Israeli government were interchangeable terms.
So may we conclude that it *is* possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic?
Most certainly. And there are even Jews who are anti-Zionist on religious grounds. Also, It's my guess that most folks who oppose the occupation are not anti-Zionist.
Full Discloser: I'm not Jewish or any religion.
I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of people who oppose the occupation are not anti-Semitic.
I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of people who oppose the occupation are not anti-Semitic.
But I have long suspected that many (but by no means a majority) of the non-Jews who support Israel are.
After all what better way to keep them from coming here than sending them there?
These nice goyem from Texas want to give us a bunch of money to rebuilt the Temple!
What nice young men! What could possibly go wrontg?
thanks